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Thread: Angel & Faith # 9 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

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    Default Angel & Faith # 9 Issue Discussion Thread(Full Spoilers)

    Opening the thread for tomorrow's issue.

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    I was pretty disappointed with this issue and I have been enjoying this title well enough, particularly Angel’s part. But either it is my morning ‘I’ve only had one cup of coffee’ grump(!) or there was just too much illogical storytelling going on.

    Faith’s part of the story was just too easy. Mr Zane being turned wasn’t a surprise and if it is being argued that he suspected people would come then why were they so incapable of stopping them escaping the vamp village? The vamps that vastly outnumbered them in the jungle were kept at bay just by Sam with one gun. But there are panels in there with vamps stood behind Faith/Mai and the prisoners and they are making no move to stop them/attack. So was letting them leave supposed to be a tactical advantage above pinning them down and looking to take out the sniper? There wasn’t another that I could see to letting them leave just to recapture them again. And I find it hard to see a group with army personnel amongst them walking themselves into a ravine like that too.

    And there was more... Why would Riley complain about the circulation in his legs when he has been stood up and able to move them? Also, why would he think he might know Faith before her name was even said? I can accept he might have made the slayer assumption leap of logic in the context and once he heard her name, but there is zero sense to him ‘sensing’ he knows her before. Plus, they played him as struggling to be compos mentis and physically weak, and then it, well, it just went away and he was making logic leaps and fighting vamps that have been taking slayers out. Also, how long has Riley been captured? It seems that up until a couple of days ago the vamps were at least shaving for him, which it has to be said was thoughtful of them. If he isn’t faking (and if he was turned you would think Sam might have noticed the difference in temperature when they kissed), then the holes seem pretty drive throughable.

    And(!)… I don’t really ‘get’ the 'Faith is incompetent with a gun' plot point. Sure she would have to learn to use them to some extent but, as others said as soon as she reached Deepscan and this started, her slayer abilities should make it reasonably natural and intuitive for her. She certainly had no difficulty in the past when she shot Angel in BtVS and hasn’t ever, that I remember, been seen to shy away from crossbows and other target-based weapons. Rifles come with sights too so "I can’t use that sniper rifle any more than I can fly the space shuttle or bake." was just a “Hell, what?!” moment in the scripting to me. There were just too many flops in all this side of the story and Angel’s wasn’t much different.

    Amy is becoming a bit tedious tbh. We get the picture, she wants to take on Willow, she is amassing power, but there was just way too much continuous spouting and gloating going on. How does testing herself against Angel in a fight prove something to her anyway? He isn’t a magic user and we know resurrecting Warren wasn’t her A Plan, so why approach Angel at all and not just attack him if all she wants is a fight? I can only assume that she wants him to bring Willow to magic town, where she feels in control, and so the constant referencing of Willow and taking her on, whilst also telling him she doesn’t think she is quite ready, is her play to try and achieve that. She must be heavily relying on the believability that Angel would see himself as a great test target in his own right though to think she is being sneaky if this is correct. But that doesn’t work well with her going to the warehouse and threatening to kill him (yet again) when she wouldn’t (if that were her true plan) be able to. But as she was after the stolen Warren goop (I hope Angel at least has the sense to not bring the real goop), maybe she could see another bout of threatening and ‘don’t call Willow please’ as probably enough motivation to go. But really it just would emphasise that she didn’t really mean to kill him. She did make it sound like she was trap-prepared for Angel too, so it is all just a bit muddled. This will either come into sharp focus down the line and clarity will appear, or it will just remain a messy muddle. Oh, and, the bottles of magic all seem to be uncorked now, unless I’m misremembering, which doesn’t seem the best transportation plan!!

    Brandt seemed quite snippy with Angel and Angel unusually open about his sleep issues when they met in the bar. Interesting that he felt the weight had lifted at that point, no sense of why that would be. Perhaps Brandt is after the magic too and is the one spellcasting?? Although I liked the idea Alasdair could be involved (I think that was angeliclestat’s on SA, apologies if I’ve misremembered). Both Brandt and Alasdair have been seen to pointedly offer him a drink, but that could have just been yet another heavy-handed drinking issue flag up for the readers I suppose. Anyway, I can’t see what he was really looking for from Brandt either, as having them as back up to contain the fight seemed odd and as Amy observed, would put them at risk. I trust Brandt even less after this issue and am becoming very aware that Pearl is still off radar.

    I’ve liked the art in A&F well enough so far (apart from Angel’s jacket which never looks like the leather has any weight to it more than cotton) but I thought the art lacked a bit on Angel this issue too. He looked either too neatly jawed at times or alternatively a bit wonky/bumpy. I also noticed the outlining on the colouring a couple of times (see Sam/Riley gazing after their kiss) and I haven’t noticed that before. I can believe it may well have been used previously, it is just that I noticed it this issue and it seemed clumsy to me. So overall this didn't work for me this time.

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    I have Angel & Faith # 9,Part IV of "Lost And Found."

    Keeping this short.It was a okay issue .Not bad,not good.Fair.Right now I'm more interested in the Faith side of the story and can't wait for Faith and Riley to have a heart to heart.Like the brief interaction between them here.

    The Angel side,I really need the pay off next issue to have more thoughts on it.

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    A&F 10.09 bullet points and analysis


    CURSED ANGEL’S STORY:

    * The opening fight between Amy Madison and Cursed Angel makes no sense in-verse.

    - Why didn’t Amy Madison simply twist Angel’s head off? What is up with wanting to ‘beat up’ Angel a little before killing him?

    - Again, Cursed Angel is being delusional. Amy seems to want to kill Angel. Yet he thinks he’s actually a threat to her?

    - Again, Cursed Angel seems to want to kill Amy. Why is she prolonging his death? She could simply set him aflame? IF she’s concerned about her Magic bottles, why not simply teleport him outside and then set him aflame? Why not encase him in something and then set him aflame? Instead, she blows some very cold air on him or something and he breaks out of the icicles that formed on him.

    - Um, why didn’t Amy simply use magic to get the Warren Meers jar from Cursed Angel’s hands and then immediately dust Angel?


    * Obviously, the only reason Cursed Angel can survive a fight with Amy Madison is because of “production reasons”. But in-verse, it makes no sense that Amy wouldn’t simply immediately kill Angel after determining he’s actually determined not to help her bring Warren Meers back. She only considers Willow Rosenberg a possibly threat to her and she knows Willow is otherwise busy. Amy considers that she’ll soon be more powerful than even Willow. Amy isn’t stupid. She could have easily twisted Angel’s head or have otherwise dusted him.

    Buffy Anne Summers versus Dark Willow (“Two to Go” (B 6.21)) actually made sense because Buffy was Willow’s BFF, Anya was preventing Willow from casting spells against others, and Willow was clearly beating Buffy. Plus, Willow felt she has something to prove against Buffy.

    WILLOW to Buffy: “Come on, this is a huge deal for me! Six years as a side man, and now I get to be the Slayer.” http://buffyworld.com/buffy/transcripts/121_tran.html
    Amy has nothing to prove against Angel, Angel’s not someone she even likes or cares about. She simply wants Warren back and considers Angel can help in that endeavor. And if he refuses, she’ll kill him. He refused to help her bring Warren back. Angel should be dead.


    * Does Detective Brandt not know what Angel did in BtVS S8? Does the United Kingdom not know?

    Kate Lockley pretty much at-best eventually tolerated Angel after discovering his past. Detective Brandt seems to want to be BFFs with Angel. Speaking of Kate Lockley, why wouldn’t she have found out what Angel did in BtVS S8? Why isn’t there at least an Interpol warrant on Angel? Buffy likely has diplomatic immunity. Angel never got any deal. It’s not as if no one knows Angel was Twilight.


    * Cursed Angel seems to be acting as if Magic Town is ‘his territory’. I wonder if Cursed Angel would still pull a ‘this is my town, things are done my way, you have no right to interfere in whatever I’m doing in my town, so get out of my town and go home’ if Buffy and/or Willow and/or Spike came to Magic Town.



    FAITH LEHANE’S STORY:

    * Stuff happened.


    * Unless the vampire is decapitated, a bullet to the head shouldn’t kill a vampire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    A&F 10.09 bullet points and analysis


    CURSED ANGEL’S STORY:

    * The opening fight between Amy Madison and Cursed Angel makes no sense in-verse.

    - Why didn’t Amy Madison simply twist Angel’s head off? What is up with wanting to ‘beat up’ Angel a little before killing him?

    - Again, Cursed Angel is being delusional. Amy seems to want to kill Angel. Yet he thinks he’s actually a threat to her?

    - Again, Cursed Angel seems to want to kill Amy. Why is she prolonging his death? She could simply set him aflame? IF she’s concerned about her Magic bottles, why not simply teleport him outside and then set him aflame? Why not encase him in something and then set him aflame? Instead, she blows some very cold air on him or something and he breaks out of the icicles that formed on him.

    - Um, why didn’t Amy simply use magic to get the Warren Meers jar from Cursed Angel’s hands and then immediately dust Angel?


    * Obviously, the only reason Cursed Angel can survive a fight with Amy Madison is because of “production reasons”. But in-verse, it makes no sense that Amy wouldn’t simply immediately kill Angel after determining he’s actually determined not to help her bring Warren Meers back. She only considers Willow Rosenberg a possibly threat to her and she knows Willow is otherwise busy. Amy considers that she’ll soon be more powerful than even Willow. Amy isn’t stupid. She could have easily twisted Angel’s head or have otherwise dusted him.
    This type of inconsistency is why I've always hated the way the comics have portrayed magic. It's lazy writing. In BtVS we've seen Willow and Giles oneshot vampires with fire spells. You're right, with the overpowered way that magic has been portrayed in the last few years, Amy should have been able to insta-kill Angel. But she didn't, because the effectiveness of magic depends entirely on the needs of the writers. Buffyverse magic is inconsistent and lazy.

    I said in another thread that Amy says she's not as good at killing vampires as Buffy. With all of Amy's magic skills, she should be better.

    To split hairs, Amy wouldn't be able to "twist Angel's head off" unless she had superstrength. For all her magic skills, it seems she's still got the physical strength of a regular human. That said, she should be able to kill him with fireballs, the energy sword she can summon, enchanted bits of wood telekinetically attacking him from all directions, creative use of portals to decapitate him, creative use of teleportation to impale or decapitate him, summon a ball of sunlight, turn him into a frog/rat, summon a hoard of the flame-snake demons or goatmen she used in season 8... Magic is simply too overpowered and has gradually gotten more and more powerful as the seasons went on, and the writing has gotten more and more lazy. So yeah, magic is only as effective as the writers want it to be at any given moment.


    I guess if you were going to be generous to the writers and fanwank it, you could say that Amy is still getting used to the new magic and a vampire of Angel's advanced age could survive the oneshot fireball spells Willow and Giles are using on the new vamps... but I feel that's being more generous than the writing actually deserves.


    * Does Detective Brandt not know what Angel did in BtVS S8? Does the United Kingdom not know?
    That's a good question actually.

    Kate Lockley pretty much at-best eventually tolerated Angel after discovering his past. Detective Brandt seems to want to be BFFs with Angel. Speaking of Kate Lockley, why wouldn’t she have found out what Angel did in BtVS S8? Why isn’t there at least an Interpol warrant on Angel? Buffy likely has diplomatic immunity. Angel never got any deal. It’s not as if no one knows Angel was Twilight.
    Twilight was two season ago. You should accept the fact that Angel is never going to face adequate punishment for what he did in season 8. The story has moved on from Twilight and so should we. Angel is hardly the first character to escape punishment when he's earned a stake to the chest. The scoobies frequently let unrepentant enemies escape if they are popular characters.

    This is not something unique to the Buffyverse either. The Joker for instance earned a bullet to the head years ago, but he's allowed to live because he's a popular character. This exact same reasoning allows Angel to live even though you could argue that he's earned the death penalty. I'd argue the the Joker commits far more heinous crimes than Angel on a regular basis.

    FAITH LEHANE’S STORY:

    * Stuff happened.
    Heh. Yeah "stuff happened" is a pretty good description for the filler stuff Faith has been up to this season. I don't see what the point was in separating the two characters if this is the quality of the story they give her.


    * Unless the vampire is decapitated, a bullet to the head shouldn’t kill a vampire.

    Agreed, I hope future writers simply ignore this, and treat it like it never happened. These are vampires, not zombies.

    Frankly, it was pushing it in season 8 when Twilight/Angel killed the Master by putting his entire fist through his skull. I can forgive that because of how awesome it was, and because a fist driven by godlike strength would destroy a significant portion of the skull and brain so it's *sort of* like decapitation and its not a situation the writers could use very often.

    But a bullet to the head killing a vampire? I call bullshit, unless it's something like a shotgun where a significant portion of the head is actually *destroyed.*

    So yeah, here's hoping this idea of bullets to the head killing a vampire doesn't make it into future canon.

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    All caught up

    Here’s my bullet points and analysis so I don’t repeat stuff: http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...l=1#post702571 It’s post #4 on page 1.

    I’ve read up to and including A&F 10.11, so I will not address stuff already known.





    Stoney

    * Riley Finn would know from “Who Are You?” (B 4.16) what Faith Lehane looks like and that she’s a Slayer. Buffy-Faith ran up to him and hugged him outside the church where the vampires are. She obviously told him she’s Buffy as she’s let inside the church. And the ending scene makes almost no sense if Riley didn’t know that Buffy-Faith was Buffy.


    * My personal canon is that Riley is literally superhuman. His being able to fight the New Rules Vampires so well isn’t much different than his in “Primeval” (B 4.21) being able to do so well against Adam-Forrest Gates and Riley’s in “Out of My Mind” (B 5.04) being able to do so well against Harmony Kendall.



    Vampire in Rug

    * I have zero problems with Willow Rosenberg’s magical abilities in BtVS S8, Season 9, and Season 10. I have major problems with Rupert Giles’s magical abilities in Season 10 simply because they make zero sense in-verse and seem mostly there to simply ‘prop up’ Angel.


    * The relative effectiveness of Amy Madison’s magical abilities isn’t why Cursed Angel survived a fight with her.

    Buffyverse magic is inconsistent and lazy.
    According to you. Angel’s entire story since 1898 C.E. has depended on Buffyverse magic.

    To split hairs, Amy wouldn't be able to "twist Angel's head off" unless she had superstrength. For all her magic skills, it seems she's still got the physical strength of a regular human.
    Maybe you need to re-read A&F 10.09. In addition, I never said that Amy would have to decapitate Angel with her bare hands.


    * Angel isn’t sunlight resistant so it wouldn’t make sense that he’d be more fire resistant than the New Rules Vampires. New Rules Vampires being able to be dusted by headshots is bad enough.

    Twilight was two season ago. You should accept the fact that Angel is never going to face adequate punishment for what he did in season 8. The story has moved on from Twilight and so should we.
    That entire thing is beyond silly to say the least. Christos Gage continues to write the comics as if Willow is more evil than Angel is. The Dark Willow arc in BtVS S6 was more than 2 Seasons ago. Christos Gage has Spike in Season 10 considering that if he loses his soul that Buffy should immediately dust him. That makes less than zero sense given that Spike in BtVS S6 didn’t kill Buffy, given that Spike after attempting to rape Buffy decided to get his soul back, given that Spike in A&F S9 considered that he wasn’t actually that bad without a soul, and given that Spike didn’t dust Angel after BtVS 8.39. Christos Gage has Buffy and Spike having conversations regarding the AR and the BtVS S6 Buffy/Spike relationship that they had already resolved by “Never Leave Me” (B 7.09) at-latest. Faith in A&F S10 considered that she needs Riley to forgive her regarding the body switch and hers having sex with Riley while she was in Buffy’s body.

    Angel is hardly the first character to escape punishment when he's earned a stake to the chest. The [S]coobies frequently let unrepentant enemies escape if they are popular characters.
    No character currently alive is comparable to Angel’s dust-worthiness. And there are credible reasons why other characters escaped death. There is no credible reason why Angel was alive after BtVS 8.39.


    * Other ‘verses are other ‘verses.


    * Faith should have never been in Angel’s title. After BtV S8, if Angel wasn’t going to be dusted, he should have at least had to stand on his own. Instead, the comics have dragged down almost all the other characters whom have appeared in A&F.


    * Bullets to the head killing New Rules Vampires is canon so that simply needs to be explained.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    * Riley Finn would know from “Who Are You?” (B 4.16) what Faith Lehane looks like and that she’s a Slayer. Buffy-Faith ran up to him and hugged him outside the church where the vampires are. She obviously told him she’s Buffy as she’s let inside the church. And the ending scene makes almost no sense if Riley didn’t know that Buffy-Faith was Buffy.
    Thanks, I completely forgot that he met her outside the church.

    * My personal canon is that Riley is literally superhuman. His being able to fight the New Rules Vampires so well isn’t much different than his in “Primeval” (B 4.21) being able to do so well against Adam-Forrest Gates and Riley’s in “Out of My Mind” (B 5.04) being able to do so well against Harmony Kendall.
    I don't think Riley is supposed to be anything more than a fit, military trained, experienced fighter. Sometimes you just have to accept that some instances, particularly within the human/superhuman fights, are just plot driven. Otherwise why didn't Spike turn around and snap Joyce's neck in School Hard? I mean his response was to run off, abandoning his whole plan and fighting the slayer that he had just managed to get the upper hand over when he could have just killed Joyce with little effort. Does that mean that Joyce is tougher than Spike and Buffy? Nope it was illogical, but it was there to play up Buffy being supported by friends/family and that got priority over logical strength/power displays.

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    The last scene between Buffy and Riley doesn't really illuminate when Buffy explained it to Riley. I'm not really sure I'd believe that Riley would have taken it on faith (heh) about the swap coming from Faith's mouth, and have always just inferred she went around him or went quickly to a side door (as most church's of customary design will have). I'm really not sure it matters; it was a brief encounter like 5 or 6 years earlier, don't know if it would give Riley any sort of quick recognition of the woman in a future encounter.

    Riley isn't superhuman, the closest he came was his pre-"Goodbye, Iowa" drugs and pre-"Out of My Mind" enhancements (they never really stopped to explicate all the differences). Sufficed to say, in the canon, he has been simply human since 5.04. No superhuman in there, just quintessential Badass Normal.

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    Stoney

    I don't think Riley is supposed to be anything more than a fit, military trained, experienced fighter.
    Sure. Maybe he doesn’t need to actually be superhuman. Maybe he’s somehow the ‘Batman’ of the Buffyverse.

    why didn't Spike turn around and snap Joyce's neck in School Hard?
    Because Buffy is still there and Buffy now has access to the axe. Maybe Joyce already reminds Spike of Anne Pratt.



    KingofCretins

    * Riley Finn would certainly remember what Faith looks like. She’s the other Slayer; she did what she did to Buffy; etc. I forget, but didn’t Riley see Faith in BtVS S8?

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    Faith may be "the other Slayer", but that fact alone doesn't assure that Riley would know her by sight. Maybe would be context, but as we all know, Slayer isn't as rare a distinction as it once was. They only ever had that one very brief face to face meeting, and Riley didn't know it was Faith (the body anyway) at the time.

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    KingofCretins

    * Regarding “Who Are You” (B 4.16), it’s almost certain that Buffy-in-Faith’s-body told Riley that she’s Buffy and got him to believe that and that’s why she got into the church.

    Your argument for Riley’s not knowing what Faith looks like is essentially that he completely forgot about “This Years Girl” (B 4.15) and “Who Are You?” (B 4.16) and that Riley would consider Faith’s Slayer status as being around no different from all the other non-Buffy Slayers. Those are simply not plausible arguments.

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