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Thread: Did Joss Whedon think we’d essentially forgive Angel after BtVS S8?

  1. #101
    Library Researcher debbicles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    That's a good point, but I think I rationalise my Warren hate by thinking he didn't do any good prior to his death. The first time we meet him he's a bad guy. He appears to have no redeeming features at all. But even then, I didn't want Willow to kill him and I didn't applaud his death, because killing Warren diminished Willow in my eyes.
    And so say all of us. I can't say I love Angel but I do seem to have some residual affection or even liking for him. I love Willow and yes killing Warren lowered her in my eyes. Although I haven't stopped loving her.

    Really there doesn't seem to be any independent mechanism or system of accountability in the Buffyverse for supernatural beings, other than the opinion of the people who love/hate you. Perhaps such a system is incompatible with the notion of an existential universe? It's been many years since I read any of Sartre's works so I'm pretty hazy on the details. But it does seem consistent that they all just hold themselves accountable for what they do. No judge or jury for any of them except their peers. Or Buffy saying "I am the law".

    Edited to say that I most emphatically do NOT count the Powers as judges/juries. They seem to me more like capricious Olympians, doling out rewards, fates, destinies and punishments.
    Last edited by debbicles; 23-04-18 at 06:28 PM.
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  3. #102
    Scooby Gang cil_domney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Thinking about this a bit more; if you believe Anya had a soul when she was a vengeance demon, and you can forgive her for everything she did, the millions of people she must have harmed or killed, their friends and families who were deeply affected by her vengeance, though they had done nothing wrong, then I think you have to show Angel/Twilight some mercy too.

    This show really does ask us to accept that we can all be monsters, and all be angels too of course
    I don't know how much we can use Anya as a comparison and example for past crimes and forgiveness/mercy - I think the character was created with so many points of "unrealistic story elements" that it's almost like Anya is, IMO, such an unrealistic character that unlike Angel or Spike all those thousands of deaths and horrendous crimes against her "vengeance victims" Anya is removed from the reality of her crimes. When we think on Anya and her vengeance demon crimes it's like we have to make a point to remember her history. With Angel and Spike, I don't we ever separate them from their history and victims. I know it's a stretch on how Anya functions in the series and I could be totally off with this perspective but it seems right to me.

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  5. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by cil_domney View Post
    I don't know how much we can use Anya as a comparison and example for past crimes and forgiveness/mercy - I think the character was created with so many points of "unrealistic story elements" that it's almost like Anya is, IMO, such an unrealistic character that unlike Angel or Spike all those thousands of deaths and horrendous crimes against her "vengeance victims" Anya is removed from the reality of her crimes. When we think on Anya and her vengeance demon crimes it's like we have to make a point to remember her history. With Angel and Spike, I don't we ever separate them from their history and victims. I know it's a stretch on how Anya functions in the series and I could be totally off with this perspective but it seems right to me.
    You do make a very good point, but I think that's why Anya perhaps suffers as a character, that there is little depth given her by the writers until Season 7. But the story does tell us that while souled she killed thousands of people (maybe more if you think she had a hand in starting the Russian Revolution ) It's an easy get out to say that Anya was 'removed' from her crimes, while Twilight was not, which may be true, but the fact the crimes still happened has to be taken into account. I agree Anya is 'unrealistic', but then so surely is Twilight? He is the most unrealistic villain in the whole buffyverse, with the most outlandish and unrealistic goals . . . consider trying to shag a universe into existance

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  7. #104
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    I never thought Anya's version of 'Fool for Love' really worked in season 7. As a episode/character study It felt weirdly rushed and a bit empty.

  8. #105
    Slayer MikeB's Avatar
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    All caught up. The Attempted Rape (“Seeing Red” (B 6.19)) isn’t the thread topic, so I’m mostly not going to discuss it in this thread.




    * Glory simply wanted to go home and considered Earthlings collateral damage. Angel wanted to live in Twilight with Buffy and considered the entire world and all its life collateral damage.

    Glory is less evil than Angel is.

    After “The Gift” (B 5.22), Glory may try to kill Buffy and Co. But Glory eventually would simply live a life of luxury and probably be ‘Queen’ of the supernatural world of wherever she was. Maybe her reach would be the entire country or entire world. But she wasn’t a world-ending threat after “The Gift” (B 5.22). If anything, she’d probably be an overall good for the world given she’d try to end any threat to the world. Glory would stop Acathla. Glory would kill Caleb. Glory would kill Jasmine.

    Illyria survives because of her potential in the fight against evil.

    Angel after BtVS 8.39 is still simply a vampire. He’s still a world-ending danger. His survival ended Slayer and Co.

    Angel’s actions in Season 8 were eviler than his actions in BtVS S2. And giving him more power would make him a bigger threat to the world.

    There’s no good in-‘verse reason to not kill Angel after BtVS 8.39.

    BtVS S9: “Willow: Wonderland” was great because it redeemed Willow and made her no longer a threat to the world. She should have kept the Seedling inside her.

    Spike in “Becoming Part II” (B 2.22) and after showed he’s an overall good for the world.


    Unless one dismisses Season 8 and/or retcons Season 8, I don’t see how it’s possible to be okay with Angel unless one considers that it’s okay for Angel to destroy the world and all its life if it results in Buffy/Angel forever.






    Priceless

    * Reading through your posts, you seem to consider Angel’s evil actions and:

    Spike’s
    Riley’s
    Faith’s
    Willow’s
    Anya’s
    Etc.

    to all be equivalent.

    Things are only comparable if they are at least near equivalent (meaning near equal).

    Comparing Riley and comparing Faith to Angel is particularly egregious given neither have ever been world-ending dangers before post-BtVS 8.39. Both’s most evil act is not killing Angel after BtVS 8.39.

    There is no good in-‘verse explanation for Angel not being dusted after BtVS 8.39 and that actually includes if Angel was controlled since before becoming Twilight. Spike was triggered throughout most of BtVS S7 and he at-most killed dozens of people, fed on Andrew, and punched and threw Buffy. As-is, Spike is only around in BtVS S7 because Buffy’s in love with Spike and wants him around. Buffy after BtVS 8.39 cannot even stand to look at Angel until the nonsense of Season 10 (which I maintain cannot be canon). Buffy’s keeping Angel alive loses her Slayer and Co.


    * For Angel not to be dust-worthy after BtVS 8.39, he needed actual redeeming. Instead, A&F S9 makes Angel’s actions from Season 8 even worse, Angel seems to consider regarding his Season 8 actions that he only needs redeeming for the death of Giles, and Angel’s help in resurrecting Giles results in Angel’s considering Buffy/Angel should be possible again.

    Outside of the very dangerous resurrecting Giles plan—which results in Magic Town—Angel did nothing to redeem himself for his Season 8 actions.

    ____________________________________

    * The AR and Angel’s actions in Season 8 aren’t comparable.

    Buffy in BtVS S2 wants to still be with Cursed Angel after “Surprise” (B 2.13) because she considered Cursed Angel wouldn’t act like Uncured Angel. Season 8 completely shatters that consideration. There needed to be a good reason Angel wasn’t dusted after BtVS 8.39.

    Spike’s attempting to rape Buffy was further hint for Buffy that Spike was mostly ‘with her’ and interested in her because of what her body could do for him. She from “Dead Things” (B 6.13) till The Speech in “Touched” (B 7.20) considered he didn’t truly love her. But Buffy after “Seeing Red” (B 6.19) considered Spike wouldn’t try to rape her again. She still wanted Spike around. And she still considered Spike useful in the fight against evil.


    * Spike was trying to kill Buffy even though Drusilla told him he was in love with Buffy. How is the attempted rape somehow harder to forgive than that?


    * Most dismiss post-AtS S5. Almost all who cannot ‘get past’ the AR never wanted Buffy/Spike. The AR isn’t as bad as Angel’s actions in BtVS S2.


    * Wiping out the memory of Connor was also beneficial for Buffy/Angel given Buffy would never know Angel had a child with Darla after BtVS S3.

    [Angel]'s always gone for the grand gesture, saving the world but only on his terms, and he's always been the one to choose who gets saved.
    None of that is true.


    * It’s the Whedonverse, not the Allieverse and not the Gageverse.


    * Willow’s actions in “Grave” (B 6.22) are largely Giles’s fault and the Scoobies in “Same Time, Same Place” (B 7.03) were clearly not fully okay with Willow until the end of the episode.

    Until Season 10, Buffy never fully forgave Giles for his actions in “Lies My Parents Told Me” (B 7.17).

    ____________________________________

    Who in the Buffyverse can really stay angry at Angel, considering what they themselves had done.
    WHAT?!!!!

    Buffy’s only a world-ending danger because of her actions to save Dawn risks the entire world.

    Spike hasn’t been a world-ending danger since “As You Were” (B 6.15) at-latest. Even then, he knew the Initiative was handling the demon eggs situation. So, really, Spike hasn’t been a world-ending danger since the Judge was killed.

    Willow was only a world-ending danger in “Grave” (B 6.22) because of Giles.

    Illyria was only an ‘island-level’ threat when she wanted to explode rather than live with limited power.

    If anything, the world would have been better off had Spike dusted Angel in “Becoming Part II” (B 2.22) instead of merely beating on him with a crowbar.

    Of those still alive, I remember only Angel, Spike, Drusilla, Buffy, Willow, and Illyria being world-ending dangers. Even Drusilla was only a world-ending danger because of Spike (he gets the Judge as a birthday present to her; he gets her to get the key info from Giles regarding how to open Acathla).


    * The only similarity between the AR and Angel’s Season 8 actions is both were done to ‘be with’ Buffy.

    ____________________________________

    * Do you not consider there are various levels of evil and damage? Riley’s most evil act is not killing Angel after BtVS 8.39. Professor Walsh and Adam were evil, but the Initiative and its US Government heads weren’t evil.

    Faith’s most evil act is her mollycoddling Angel in A&F S9. Faith with the Mayor was at-most a town-ending threat.


    * The various evil characters pre-BtVS 8.40 survive because of cost-benefit analysis. And it made sense.

    A&F S9 writes Willow as eviler than Angel, Spike considering Angel a Glory or Illyria-level threat, Spike thinking Angel ‘moved on’ from Buffy, everyone regarding and treating Angel better than they did in AtS S5, etc. Zero of that makes any sense.

    ____________________________________

    * Not forgiving Spike after the AR isn’t a problem. It’s only a problem if you cannot ‘get past’ the AR but also are a Buffy/Angel ‘shipper and/or Xander/Anya ‘shipper.

    I remember Season 10 seems to treat the AR as being WORSE than Angel’s actions in Season 8 given how the characters in BtVS S10 embrace Angel versus how they embrace Spike in early BtVS S7 (Dawn’s already happy with Angel and she wasn’t fine with Spike until the end of BtVS S9).

    ____________________________________

    * Some reviewers liked A&F S9, but it was/is overall hated because of how Angel is dealt with post BtVS 8.40. How Spike is treated during the crossover got such tremendous backlash—relatively more than Angel’s reveal as Twilight—that I remember Dark Horse apologized for it.

    I consider Christos Gage doesn’t know the Buffyverse characters better than any Buffyverse writer and not better than Brian K. Vaughn and Andrew Chambliss. The Fairweather sisters were created by Joss Whedon; so, a lot of their characters and dynamics are because of Joss Whedon.

    The only thing Gage should be credited with is the Drusilla arc—the Daddy Issues—of A&F S9. But even that didn’t go anywhere after the Drusilla arc.

    And Victor Gischler did better with Spike during BtVS S9: Spike: A Dark Place than Gage did with Drusilla.

    ____________________________________

    * Anya became human in “The Wish” (B 3.09) and was already helping the Scoobies in “Graduation Day Part I” (B 3.21) and was a Scooby in BtVS S4 on.

    Cursed Angel was still killing people and still wanted to be with Darla. Angel doesn’t start being a force for good until around 99 years after being cursed (1898 C.E. to 1997 C.E.).

    It is grossly insulting to Anya to compare her to Angel.


    * There is zero perspective in which the AR and AngelTwilight are equivalent. If anything, the nearest comparison to the AR is Hyena Xander’s attack on Buffy in “The Pack” (B 1.06).

    It is directly opposed to canon that the AR and AngelTwilight are treated at all similar. Buffy in “Villains” (B 6.20) took Dawn to Spike to get Spike to protect Dawn, Buffy was saddened that Spike left town, Buffy befriended Clem to see when Spike would return, and Buffy by “Lessons” (B 7.01) and “Beneath You” (B 7.02) considers Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike as equal. Buffy in BtVS S7 clearly chooses Spike over Angel.

    Unless one dismisses established canon and/or considers Season 10 can retroactively change established canon, Buffy is never okay with Angel after BtVS 8.39. She merely doesn’t want him killed. She cannot look at him.



    a thing of evil

    * Faith went to prison for years because of her BtVS S3 actions. Angel got rewarded for his BtVS S8 actions. How are those things reconciled?



    betta

    http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...l=1#post717491


    * Mostly a great post, but there’s around zero indication Angel was—or could—bring anyone else into Twilight.

    ____________________________________

    * Angel’s the reason General Voll considered the Slayers a threat to the world.

    ____________________________________

    * Anything said in a Q&A that isn’t said by Joss Whedon isn’t canon. I remember it was a huge problem on forums when posters were discussing things Scott Allie, Georges Jeanty, Christos Gage, etc. said in a Q&A as if those things said are canon.

    Most of the defense of the stuff in Season 10 that is directly opposed to established canon revolved around the idea that something written in which Joss Whedon has very little if any involvement with can retroactively change the canon of the TV Buffyverse, the canon of BtVS S8, and the canon of Season 9.



    bespangled

    * You have to read BtVS S8 and afterward to understand the context of this thread.


    * Angel became Twilight to be with Buffy—his actions in BtVS S8 and in A&F S9 are the result of that want.

    ____________________________________

    * Angel is used by higher powers. He’s not ‘destiny guy’. He’s used by Twilight, The Powers That Be, Jasmine, Wolfram & Hart, etc.

    Depending on what is still canon, Spike and Buffy is more Destiny Guy/Gal than Angel.

    Spike and Willow’s actions directly result in the Frayverse.

    ____________________________________

    Angelus like to be king of all he saw
    That is directly opposed to canon. Angelus was afraid of facing mobs. Angelus was afraid of facing the Slayer. Before Spike came along, Angelus was simply a serial killer and Darla’s pet. Darla liked ‘the view’; so, Angel tried to have them live well.

    Spike liked being ‘King’. He becomes ‘King of the Sunnydale Underground’ in BtVS S2. In Spike & Dru : “Paint the Town Red”, he becomes King of a Turkish town. If the IDW stuff is canon, he becomes Lord of the (310) zip code, and if anything the other Lords of Los Angeles are simply his vassals. He becomes King of the bugs.

    Angel has never been King and never seemed to want to be one.


    * Spike is not an anarchist.


    * Willow is more power hungry than Angel. Angel did the Twilight thing to be with Buffy. Willow in Season 9 was so consumed with power she wanted to rule more than one dimension.

    ____________________________________

    * Angel considers redemption being able to be with Buffy without guilt. Spike considers Spike deserves to go to heaven.

    ____________________________________

    * Angel considered Wolfram & Hart would send an army to kill Angel and Co. He didn’t consider Wolfram & Hart would send Los Angeles to a hell dimension. He didn’t consider Wolfram & Hart’s army would try to kill everyone in Los Angeles.

    ____________________________________

    * Drusilla and Darla killed a bunch of evil lawyers. They kept the two least evil lawyers alive. They did a good thing. Angel’s having Lorne kill Lindsey MacDonald is much worse than Drusilla and Darla killing the evil lawyers they killed.


    * Tara was pretty much only close with Willow. If Oz were killed, the non-Willow Scoobies would probably act similarly to their reaction to Tara’s death. Jenny Calender’s death was mostly grieved by Giles. The others ‘got past’ it after “Passions” (B 2.17). Xander simply used it as another reason Buffy/Angel shouldn’t happen.

    If someone killed Dawn, Buffy would kill that person. Buffy threatened the lives of the entire Scooby Gang in “The Gift” (B 5.22). Same with Spike in BtVS S7 and after. If Giles and Wood had succeeded its near certain Buffy would have killed both.

    Buffy wasn’t even actually willing to kill Faith to save Angel. Buffy instead risks herself.

    ____________________________________

    * Soulless Spike being in love with Buffy is canon.



    TriBel

    * Pre-minutes before Drusilla meets Spike, we don’t know much about the Darla/Angel/Drusilla dynamic. But Angel was Darla’s pet. The ‘ownership’ aspect seems to only begin after Drusilla sires William.

    William is very likely the reason Angel in 1880 C.E. is suddenly referring to Darla and Drusilla as “my women”.


    * Angel also killed priests. Angel isn’t a misogynist.

    ____________________________________

    * I remember that there were a few posters on this Board who seemed to try to equate Spike’s putting his cigarette into an urn of Alasdair’s with Angel’s Season 8 actions.

    It absolutely says something about the viewers, readers, and fans that some state the AR was unforgivable yet Angel’s actions in BtVS S2 and/or Seaosn 8 shouldn’t impede Buffy/Angel at all.



    Stoney

    * Angel in AtS S5 had the Circle of the Black Thorn forcing him to literally sign away his chances to be Shanshued. That meant no Buffy/Angel. Also, “Buffy” was again clearly not waiting for Angel.

    The only problem with the plan in “Not Fade Away” (A 5.22) is Buffy and Co.’s not being informed of it. But, then again, they weren’t informed of the Jasmine thing.

    Angel considered he was ruining Wolfram & Hart’s apocalypse. Angel probably also considered it was likely Illyria, Spike (who WR&H was somehow interested in), and Angel (who WR&H was somehow interested in) would either survive or die having stopped WR&H world-ending threat.


    * Angel was only possessed in BtVS 8.38 and BtVS 8.39. I remember Joss Whedon says Angel is responsible for all the actions of Angel, AngelTwilight, and TwilightAngel.

    FACTS are what is canon. Angel saying something doesn’t make what he says automatically canon.

    ____________________________________

    * Giles in “I Only Have Eyes for You” (B 2.19) was discussing forgiving someone who had accidentally shot you.

    Giles wasn’t discussing actively engaging in world-ending evil and continuing to be a world-ending threat.

    Giles in “IOHEFY” was also discussing Buffy forgiving herself for having sex with Cursed Angel.

    ____________________________________

    * “Eternity” (A 1.17) and BtVS S8 prove there’s only a “meaningful difference” between Uncursed Angel and Cursed Angel when Angel is feeling the affects of the curse.



    debbicles

    * It almost makes it worse if Angel in Season 8 thought he was ‘doing the right thing’. In any case, Angel thought he was doing the right thing for Angel.


    * Angel’s actions in the Buffyverse are objectively worse than almost all other being’s actions regarding humans.

    why Buffy has a dig at Satsu in S10 for siding with the army.
    I remember Christos Gage said he thinks Angel was already redeemed before A&F S9 began. That’s how he wrote A&F S9. How Gage wrote BtVS S10 is simply an extension of how he wrote A&F S9.

    ____________________________________

    * Angel signed “Angel” on the ‘Shanshu Prophecy’ document. The only actual theory is no one can ‘sign away’ one’s chance to be Shanshued.

    I consider the Shanshu Prophecy was something Wolfram & Hart made up to try to influence Angel.

    ____________________________________

    * Spike is rather aimless without a love interest. Spike’s staying in AtS S5 didn’t make a lot of sense even though he was still concerned about Buffy/Angel. It would make some sense if Spike decided to be with Fred and then be with Illyria.

    Spike’s leaving Buffy in BtVS S9 made even less sense. His leaving her in her room with the door unlocked and her naked from the waist up is the only reason there was an abortion storyline. If he wanted to be with Buffy, he could have been with her. Instead, he tries to get Detective Dowling interested in Buffy.

    Then Spike meets Morgan and rejects her because he still wants to be with Buffy. But then he doesn’t try to be with Buffy again.

    Season 10 has too much stuff directly opposed to established canon.

    I consider that the flash forwards regarding Spike being alive in the time of flying cars and having Spider and Co. as his ‘Spike Gang’ makes sense. We don’t know if Beck is immortal, but having her as Spike’s new or main girlfriend would also make sense.

    ____________________________________

    * Almost all of the people who cannot ‘get past’ the AR were never Buffy/Spike ‘shippers to begin with. It’s used as an excuse for why Buffy/Angel is somehow better.

    The bigger problems are those who still insist Buffy never was actually in love with Spike.

    It’s near canon Buffy was in love with Spike in BtVS S6. It’s near canon Buffy/Spike had sex in BtVS S7 after “Get It Done” (B 7.15) and certainly in “Chosen” (B 7.22).

    ____________________________________

    * Remember AtS S5? Giles didn’t send Willow to Los Angeles. Andrew considered he could threaten to dust Angel if Angel didn’t willingly hand Dana over to Andrew. Buffy largely hasn’t been in contact with Angel since “The Yoko Factor” (B 4.20).

    Buffy stopped Xander from dusting Angel. Faith mollycoddles Angel. Angel in A&F S9 has better—or as good—relationships with everyone than he had in AtS S5.



    Silver1

    * Angel’s been increasingly ‘trashed’ by the writers ever since “Welcome to the Hellmouth” (B 1.01). Angel’s actions in Season 8 don’t go against established canon: see “Eternity” (A 1.17). Cursed Angel can act like Uncursed Angel.



    cil_domney

    * The Whedonvere reflects “Real Life” only to a certain extent.

    Being against certain world leaders while supporting other certain world leaders is about geopolitics.


    * To enjoy all post-BtVS 8.39, you must forgive what Angel did in Season 8. Post-Season 9, you must accept and forgive all the stuff in Season 10 that is opposed to established canon.

    _____________________________________

    * SuperBuffy had to be glowified to have sex with AngelTwilight and while in Twilight literally wraps herself in Spike, once out of Twiilght tells AngelTwilight that if Spike arrived sooner she wouldn’t have had sex with AngelTwilight, again shoos Angel away in favor of being with Spike, and is daydreaming about kissing and having sex with Spike.

    So, no, the Space Sex stuff is not about “B&A 4ever”.



    HardlyThere

    * The Buffyverse has millions of fans. To fix post-BtVS 8.39, Joss Whedon would simply need to rid post-BtVS 8.40 of canon status and have Angel interrogated to find out who he was working for or with and either have Angel dusted afterward or have him controlled and/or influenced before deciding to be AngelTwilight.

    If an animated something is ever made, it’s likely post-BtVS S8 will be dismissed.

    ____________________________________

    * We don’t know that Whistler worked for The Powers That Be. We do know Whistler worked for Twilight.

    ____________________________________

    * At the most macro level, the comics are about Buffy/Spike being endgame, the Frayverse being further solidified, Drusilla still being alive and important, Willow becoming more powerful after BtVS S7, and Angel’s continued non-dusting. And Harmony’s Rules.

    ____________________________________

    * Spike didn’t seem to know the Judge would kill everyone who had any humanity. Spike seemed to consider the Judge would simply be entertainment for Drusilla and Spike.

    Spike teamed up with Buffy mostly to stop the Acathla plan and not be blamed for dusting Angel.


    * Spike in AtS S5 was noncorporeal and would have gone back to Buffy if he didn’t find out Angel could possibly become human. Spike since “School Hard” (B 2.03) and very likely before reasoned he was superior to Angel. “Destiny” (A 5.08) for Spike was simply Spike’s putting Angel ‘in his place’.


    * Spike isn’t a drunk. We only see Spike heavily drunk because Dru broke up with him.


    * Buffy in BtVS S5 tells Willow that Willow is the most powerful member of Buffy and Co. Buffy in BtVS S7 tells Willow that Willow is more powerful than the men who created the First Slayer.

    Willow considers herself so special that she tries to keep the Seed intact in BtVS 8.39 and in Season 9 endeavors to bring magic back to Earth even though doing so would bring back the possibility of magical apocalypses.



    Lostsoul666

    * BtVS S8 ended the Buffy/Angel vs. Buffy/Spike debate.

    ____________________________________

    * Yeah, Illyria hasn’t been interesting since Illyria: Haunted .

    Regarding Dark Horse’s getting the AtS comics license back, the biggest problem is not using Beck and not using Spider and Co. Even Connor is shoehorned in for Willow’s ‘get magic back’ thing.



    DanSlayer

    * AtS only existed because of BtVS and Fox and the WB wanting to keep Joss Whedon happy. After Doyle’s death, the main 3 AtS characters are always former BtVS characters: Angel, Cordelia (then Spike), and Wesley.


    * The schedules of the BtVS and AtS cast were grueling enough: there wouldn’t be bigger crossovers, especially from BtVS to AtS in BtVS S6 and BtVS S7 given how much the BtVS cast was getting paid.



    vampmogs

    * It didn’t take long for Uncursed Angel to help with the Judge thing and Angel immediately agrees to help with the Acathla thing.



    TimeTravellingBunny

    * I’d easily argue that the AR hurt Dawn more than it hurt Buffy.


    * Spike’s most evil act against humans since the Judge is the demons eggs thing. Spike’s love for Buffy hurt a lot of people. Drusilla obviously. Angel obviously. Spike almost makes Angel a leper. Spike threatens to kill Xander and Willow. Spike almost gets Riley killed. Spike tried to kill that one girl in “Smashed” (B 6.09). Spike in BtVS S6 and after stopped being around Dawn much. The demon eggs thing. Buffy/Spike is the reason the First Evil became a ‘world-ending’ threat in BtVS S7.


    * Angel tells Buffy in “Angel” (B 1.07) that the only reason he has a soul is because Gypsies cursed him. Overall, it was uncharacteristic of he to be so honest with Buffy, but perhaps he assumed Buffy would eventually find out he was cursed.

    Buffy reasoned Cursed Angel wouldn’t act like Uncursed Angel. Hers wanting to be with Cursed Angel after BtVS S2 is much less ‘dark’ and ‘problematic’ than Buffy’s attraction to and interest in Spike from “School Hard” (B 2.03) on. Buffy literally first has sex with Spike when Spike can again kill her.

    Buffy in “Lovers Walk” (B 3.08) was essentially flirting with Spike throughout. Buffy in “Something Blue” (B 4.09) was seriously considering dating Spike. Buffy in “Out of My Mind” (B 5.04) tells Riley that if she wanted someone with superpowers she’d be dating Spike, but the reality is Buffy would be dating Spike if Spike during the My Will Be Done spell was nicer to her.

    Buffy was never attracted to Uncursed Angel and never was interested in Uncured Angel. SuperBuffy was vigorously trying to dust AngelTwilight before the glow started working on her.

    Buffy didn’t try to dust Harmony in BtVS S4 and BtVS S5 merely because of Spike/Harmony. Buffy never actively tries to dust Drusilla merely because of Spike/Drusilla.

    Buffy has less than zero problem trying to kill Darla. Buffy after Uncursed Angel killed Jenny Calender actively tries to kill Uncursed Angel.


    * Angel lives after BtVS S2 only because Buffy wanted him to. Buffy as the Slayer has jurisdiction over all supernatural threats to the world.

    Faith goes to prison because Buffy wants her to.

    Spike is a quasi Scooby (BtVS S4 and BtVS S5), then Scooby (BtVS S6), and Buffy’s Number 2 (BtVS S7 and after) because Buffy wants those things.

    Anya only lives by Buffy considering she should live.

    The problem with post-BtVS 8.39 is that all those decisions were based on cost-benefit analysis. No one considered Cursed Angel would act like Uncursed Angel. Buffy wasn’t there in “Eternity” (A 1.17) and it’s assumed Jasmine is the reason the Fang Gang was a Fang Gang.

    Spike defeats Buffy in “School Hard” (B 2.03), shows attraction to Buffy in “Halloween” (B 2.06), Buffy learns of Spike/Drusilla in “Lie to Me” (B 2.07) and Spike doesn’t kill Buffy in “Lie to Me”, after “Surprise” (B 2.13) Buffy considers Uncursed Angel the bigger concern, Spike helps Buffy save the world in “Becoming Part II” (B 2.22).

    Buffy after BtVS 8.39 loses the Slayer Army. Except Faith, no one of Buffy and Co. seemed to want Angel not dusted. Buffy wasn’t interested in Angel anymore. There was no benefit to keeping Angel not dusted.

    ____________________________________

    Buffy is not the supreme authority on forgiving people. (I'm pretty sure only God is supposed to be that authority,.
    Spike in “Beneath You” (B 7.02) literally says, “God help me.”, then looks at Buffy and says, “Help me!”

    Buffy is the supreme authority on forgiving people for supernatural incidents and crimes. It’s to the point that the Buffyverse has Willow feel guilty about killing and flaying Warren even though Warren deserved death and torture.

    Buffy’s not wanting Angel killed after BtVS 8.39 is the only reason he’s not killed after BtVS 8.39.

    Buffy in “As You Were” (B 6.15) has Riley deferring to her decision whether to kill Spike. Riley in “The Killer in Me (B 7.13) offers Buffy to remove Spike’s chip and there’s almost zero indication Riley knows Spike is ensouled.

    Buffy forgives Willow by the end of “Same Time, Same Place” (B 7.03); thus, Willow is forgiven for her BtVS S6 actions.

    Even Dawn’s not forgiving Spike for the attempted rape is telling in that the AR wasn’t a supernatural incident/crime. It was a ‘human crime’.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cil_domney View Post
    I don't know how much we can use Anya as a comparison and example for past crimes and forgiveness/mercy - I think the character was created with so many points of "unrealistic story elements" that it's almost like Anya is, IMO, such an unrealistic character that unlike Angel or Spike all those thousands of deaths and horrendous crimes against her "vengeance victims" Anya is removed from the reality of her crimes. When we think on Anya and her vengeance demon crimes it's like we have to make a point to remember her history. With Angel and Spike, I don't we ever separate them from their history and victims. I know it's a stretch on how Anya functions in the series and I could be totally off with this perspective but it seems right to me.
    Anya is a "light" character, to bring the funny, so her story isn't as consistent as Angel's and Spike's (and I don't have any problem with that, I like Anya and I think she was good to the show), but she has a story, and it's one of having done something very wrong in the past, fell into the same trap again - but regret it immensely to the point of not only wanting to die, but also to be ready to die to save others' lives.
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    "There's no mystical guidebook, no all- knowing council -- human rules don't apply. There's only me. I am the Law" - the Buffyverse is practically the Wild West. It's a lawless world where Buffy is judge, jury and executioner and characters are spared based on their likability or their proximity to the central characters. It should be no surprise that there's contradictions in regard to how creatures are dealt with because all Buffy can do is feel her way through it.

    It's also important to make the distinction between Buffy's brand of justice and our own legal system. Buffy very rarely slays to punish creatures. She slays to protect people. If Buffy slayed creatures because she morally condemned them then she'd have slain Spike back in S4, chip or no chip. She even relishes the opportunity to kill him fair and square in Out Of My Mind because she believes he has successfully removed his chip and therefore poses a threat again ("Means I get to kill you").

    So unless Buffy feels that Angel is a legitimate threat after S8 then it's pretty much the norm that she didn't kill him. A lot of the characters arguably "deserved" to die (Angel, Spike, Anya) but Buffy didn't slay them unless she felt she had to, to protect people. And it's not just Buffy. Cordy banned Team Angel from dusting Harmony in Disharmony because Harmony was an old friend from high school and she had affection for her. It was as simple as that.
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    How the heck can BS8 and the Twilight Times ever be Good or Reasonable when you start off with this premise that Buffy and Angel can create a universe from having sex - WTH?

    Excellent discussions all -
    Last edited by cil_domney; 25-04-18 at 05:36 PM.

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    Buffy's "I am the law" posture has some built in fallacies even in the rubric of the supernatural world. Like if controverting her authority is a punishable offense in its own right? I mean, what if Xander had just summarily staked the disoriented and ostensibly weakened Angel after the summary of his hubris had finally played out? Buffy hadn't been heard on the subject one way or another. Is Buffy the Rick Grimes of the Buffyverse and she just gets to decide? (TWD Season 8 and "All Out War" spoilers)
    Spoiler:
    what if Willow had decided after Buffy had chosen to spare Angel that she thought Buffy was wrong and killed him herself? That's where we're trending with Maggie, Daryl, and Jesus after Rick decided to spare Negan; what's he goign to do, kill them? Why does he get to decide for everyone what justice, or even what vengeance is, when the act is otherwise within the normal 'code' of the story setting?


    By which I mean, if Buffy is in her own right justified to kill a demon, or a vampire, but decides not to, why should that settle the question for Faith or for Riley?

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    I’ve always maintained that if Wood had shown up in Sunnydale prior to season 7, and wanted to avenge his mother by killing a chipped, defenseless Spike, then none of the scoobies would be in a moral position to stop him. What right do they have to stop anyone from killing a soulless vampire?

    A similar hypothetical is Knox, the vampire that killed Gunn’s sister. If Buffy -for whatever reason, showed up in LA and declared that Knox was under her protection, should Gunn or Angel be beholden to that? I don’t think so.

    Or vamp-Willow. Buffy didn’t feel comfortable killing her because she happened to look like her friend. I think this moment of weakness highlights that Buffy is still a teenager, and undermines any “I am the law” argument that people like to put forth that Bufy should be the ultimate authority on who lives and dies because she’s the Slayer and somehow “earned” the right to make that call. If Buffy didn’t feel comfortable killing vamp-Willow, that’s totally understandable. But why should she be off-limits to one of the adults? Why send her back to a world where if not for pure luck, she’d have killed countless more people? In fact, by granting Vamp-Willow the right to live, doesn’t Buffy owe her a duty of care to make sure she makes the trip safely? The whole way they dealt with her was juvenile and irresponsible. “I’m not comfortable with killing her, so let’s just make her somebody else’s problem. Send her back to the Wishverse, where she might materialize inside a kindergarten, or in front of a stake or inside a wood chipper for all I care. So long as I don’t have to see it.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire in Rug View Post
    I’ve always maintained that if Wood had shown up in Sunnydale prior to season 7, and wanted to avenge his mother by killing a chipped, defenseless Spike, then none of the scoobies would be in a moral position to stop him. What right do they have to stop anyone from killing a soulless vampire?

    A similar hypothetical is Knox, the vampire that killed Gunn’s sister. If Buffy -for whatever reason, showed up in LA and declared that Knox was under her protection, should Gunn or Angel be beholden to that? I don’t think so.

    Or vamp-Willow. Buffy didn’t feel comfortable killing her because she happened to look like her friend. I think this moment of weakness highlights that Buffy is still a teenager, and undermines any “I am the law” argument that people like to put forth that Bufy should be the ultimate authority on who lives and dies because she’s the Slayer and somehow “earned” the right to make that call. If Buffy didn’t feel comfortable killing vamp-Willow, that’s totally understandable. But why should she be off-limits to one of the adults? Why send her back to a world where if not for pure luck, she’d have killed countless more people? In fact, by granting Vamp-Willow the right to live, doesn’t Buffy owe her a duty of care to make sure she makes the trip safely? The whole way they dealt with her was juvenile and irresponsible. “I’m not comfortable with killing her, so let’s just make her somebody else’s problem. Send her back to the Wishverse, where she might materialize inside a kindergarten, or in front of a stake or inside a wood chipper for all I care. So long as I don’t have to see it.”
    But, Vampire in Rug, she didn't feel happy about doing it, as I recall. She said as much to Willow, that she wasn't comfortable with releasing this thing into the wild, or some such words. It was Willow who persuaded her to send VampWillow back.
    Buffy grows into her role and I think that's what we see in S7. Also, she is called at various points for sparing Angel and Spike. Because she loves them and cares for them. Xander especially feels she is acting with double standards in this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by debbicles View Post
    But, Vampire in Rug, she didn't feel happy about doing it, as I recall. She said as much to Willow, that she wasn't comfortable with releasing this thing into the wild, or some such words. It was Willow who persuaded her to send VampWillow back.
    Buffy grows into her role and I think that's what we see in S7. Also, she is called at various points for sparing Angel and Spike. Because she loves them and cares for them. Xander especially feels she is acting with double standards in this.
    Think the best example of a Buffy who has matured and accepted that sometimes from an individual's perspective of "personal needs and desires" there is no easy answer and indeed an action must be taken that goes against everything said person wants & needs. When Buffy states that in total contrast to her first decision to not kill Dawn to save the world she would now take that action. Someone please correct me if I am remembering this wrong.

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    My interpretation is, that Buffy would still not kill Dawn and would still not let her be killed by someone else and would still be willing to sacrifice herself for Dawn. The only difference to the decision, she made in The Gift was, that she would now allow Dawn to sacrifice herself, should Dawn wish to do so. I also believe, that Buffy is talking about season 7 Dawn, not about season 5 Dawn, meaning, that she would allow an older and more mature Dawn to sacrifice herself.

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    In the end, I can't help thinking that Angel is forgiven by those who are close to him and love him, not just because they love him, but also because, like all of us, they feel they may need some forgiveness along the way.
    And not just Angel.
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