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Thread: Did Joss Whedon think wed essentially forgive Angel after BtVS S8?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HardlyThere View Post
    And? A. Dog. Told. Him. To.
    But the Power given to Angel was very real, something hard to just ignore; at least for those who always had a liking for grand gestures.

    Reward and Shanshu? The things he walked away from last time we saw the guy?
    He has signed away the Shanshu; and then, here it is a new reward to pursue... very Angel-like.

    (And how about that theory that Angel didn't sign his name, but something else?)
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    I still don't get how we go from the Angel that we saw in "Angel After the Fall" to the Angel that we see in "Buffy Season 8".

    It feels to me that there was no real thought into the consequences of what this storyline would do to the character in the long-term which explains all the retconning(white washing)that the "Angel and Faith" book had to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TriBel View Post
    This is a program about vampires, demons, literal loan sharks and rats who're really people. They don't exist any more than talking dogs. Why the incredulity? Perhaps they intended it to be absurd: Theatre of the Absurd; "drama using the abandonment of conventional dramatic form to portray the futility of human struggle in a senseless world. Major exponents include Samuel Beckett, Eugne Ionesco, and Harold Pinter". Maybe it's an actualization of the dramatic convention? Who knows?
    A talking dog is fine. A talking dog, in the span of a few minutes, convincing a major character to end the world are two different things. Teeth didn't somehow sway Buffy into being his muscle in their brief conversation, did he?

    It doesn't matter if it's intended to be absurd. Allegory, metaphor, navel-gazing by Joss =/= a coherent plot. A bible reference is not an explanation (looking also at Zach Snyder, here). Stories have to make sense on a fundamental "this is what happened", world-building level. It could be Joss's intent was Snyder-esque in S8. That would certainly mesh with Allie's rambling, nonsensical explanations of writing in 8/9 where he'd trot out some aphorism as to why something happened. It's still terrible writing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by betta View Post
    But the Power given to Angel was very real, something hard to just ignore; at least for those who always had a liking for grand gestures.
    Is he? Like what?

    He has signed away the Shanshu; and then, here it is a new reward to pursue... very Angel-like.

    (And how about that theory that Angel didn't sign his name, but something else?)
    He signed away the Shanshu for a reason. His entire arc the last two years, spelled out hard numerous times, was his pushback against being used by the Powers. So he's just going to drop pants when a new one comes along? Nah.

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    I don't understand the reference to Zach Snyder. Is this a character in another comic? And what's the similarity? Sorry to ask but I'm not really current on other shows. Thanks!

    I didn't know there was a theory Angel had signed something else on that waiver. I could have sworn I saw him write Angel. I'm missing a lot here, aren't I!!!

    I think it's sad that for whatever reason, Angel is desperate enough still to want a big role in the world. He still feels so apart from it that he'll try anything, believe anything.
    Last edited by debbicles; 16-04-18 at 06:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by debbicles View Post
    I don't understand the reference to Zach Snyder. Is this a character in another comic? And what's the similarity? Sorry to ask but I'm not really current on other shows. Thanks!
    He's a writer/director who was in charge of the DCEU, relevant to the discussion because he tended to use Christian imagery in place of motivation. It's actually a disservice to Snyder to compare him to the writing of S8 but I mention because you see the same defenses by his fanbase: Basically 5D chess and 2deep4u.

    I didn't know there was a theory Angel had signed something else on that waiver. I could have sworn I saw him write Angel. I'm missing a lot here, aren't I!!!
    I think the theory is he writes Angel but his name is Liam. I'm not sure why people think it makes a difference when it's signed in his blood.

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    Even looking at it past S8 itself, the way they've handled Angel shows they are a bit gun-shy. Now you could argue S9-11 are all very safe but the Angel titles have all been more or less props to the Buffy ones.

    A & F S9: Cleaning up S8 with guest arcs from two Buffy characters. Main goal is to bring back one of Buffy's main team members. Big Bad is important to Angel, but revealed in a one-shot Buffy story after the bulk of S8 was over. Guest stars Gunn and Connor for their only arc at Dark Horse, the former just guarding a portal for a few minutes.

    A & F S10: First arc half dealing with it's own pixie thing and dropping off Giles while Faith sits in the background in her own story. Second arc was again dealing with a Buffy character in Amy; introduces Faith to Reese, only to be dropped; resolves Faith/Riley issue from S4. Spent it's 3rd arc resolving Illyria and Koh that the old Buffy title ran out of time for. Literally had to wait for Buffy to let them use their Big Bad after they were done with Archaeus for arcs 4 and 5. Shortened by 5 issues.

    Angel S11: Killing time in the fandom, may somehow turn out to tie to Harth causing Buffy time problems in S12 where Angel, Illyria and presumably Fred are guest stars.

    Now, crossovers were essentially one-way from S5/S2 with nothing from LA ever having any impact on Sunnydale unless it was a quick cameo to further a Buffy plot. Angel just puts his team back together, promising to be loyal to leader Wesley, but has no problem offering to stay as long as Buffy needs after Joyce dies. Even Willow picking up Faith was glossed over in S7. (Would never fly today, we'd be getting full cast crossovers once a year; with a bunch of smaller ones throughout). But even still I think DH itself isn't sure what to do with Angel anymore.
    Last edited by DanSlayer; 16-04-18 at 07:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HardlyThere View Post
    And? A. Dog. Told. Him. To.

    They don't even shy away from the absurdity of it. They lampshade it heavily with the mental problems line.

    Reward and Shanshu? The things he walked away from last time we saw the guy?
    What's that thing about "a set-up?" - this scenario is set-up custom made for Angel and his vulnerabilities. A reward for what?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TriBel View Post
    This is a program about vampires, demons, literal loan sharks and rats who're really people. They don't exist any more than talking dogs. Why the incredulity? Perhaps they intended it to be absurd: Theatre of the Absurd; "drama using the abandonment of conventional dramatic form to portray the futility of human struggle in a senseless world. Major exponents include Samuel Beckett, Eugne Ionesco, and Harold Pinter". Maybe it's an actualization of the dramatic convention? Who knows?
    How about a dog and his master - Angel followed Whistler's plan - a choice he did not have to make.

    Angel's a friggin complicated character or maybe not - maybe Angel and Guilt is all there really is - We know he likes power and he likes to use it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HardlyThere View Post
    He's a writer/director who was in charge of the DCEU, relevant to the discussion because he tended to use Christian imagery in place of motivation. It's actually a disservice to Snyder to compare him to the writing of S8 but I mention because you see the same defenses by his fanbase: Basically 5D chess and 2deep4u.



    I think the theory is he writes Angel but his name is Liam. I'm not sure why people think it makes a difference when it's signed in his blood.
    LOL - and here we now have the president of the US Donald Trump signing legal papers using an alias.
    Last edited by cil_domney; 17-04-18 at 04:13 AM.

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    this scenario is set-up custom made for Angel and his vulnerabilities. A reward for what?
    People keep saying this as though anyone can walk up to him, say "destiny" and he's in their pocket because of his self-importance. You could say the same of any character, including Spike (see S5, Destiny, Doyle/Lindsey). It's a big oversimplification. All of Angel's friends were pushing it. Lorne, Wes, Cordy, even Fred, all of them. Not to belabor the point, that was the arc of S4 and S5: That it cost him everything. Whistler worked for the PtB, which as was learned in S4 are disinterested, thus he worked for Jasmine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HardlyThere View Post
    People keep saying this as though anyone can walk up to him, say "destiny" and he's in their pocket because of his self-importance. You could say the same of any character, including Spike (see S5, Destiny, Doyle/Lindsey). It's a big oversimplification. All of Angel's friends were pushing it. Lorne, Wes, Cordy, even Fred, all of them. Not to belabor the point, that was the arc of S4 and S5: That it cost him everything. Whistler worked for the PtB, which as was learned in S4 are disinterested, thus he worked for Jasmine.
    Well destiny is Angel's thing - because he actually has a destiny.

    Spike doesn't believe in destiny. He wanted a chance to beat some sense into Angel because Angel's attitude pissed him off. But he told Angel he could keep his destiny.

    SPIKE (to Angel) You're welcome to that heroic destiny, whether you deserve it or not. Me, I got better things to do than wait around for the 4 bloody horsemen.

    And he choked Doyle/Lindsey after the guy used the word destiny.

    But what are you talking about that they all pushed for? I am missing something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bespangled View Post
    Well destiny is Angel's thing - because he actually has a destiny.
    They all have destinies. It's not selective to Angel. There is a whole episode dedicated to stealing destinies.

    Spike doesn't believe in destiny. He wanted a chance to beat some sense into Angel because Angel's attitude pissed him off. But he told Angel he could keep his destiny.

    SPIKE (to Angel) You're welcome to that heroic destiny, whether you deserve it or not. Me, I got better things to do than wait around for the 4 bloody horsemen.
    And there he is, a few eps later doing what Lindsey tells him and fighting Angel over a prophecy.

    And he choked Doyle/Lindsey after the guy used the word destiny.
    After he did it, he still did it.

    But what are you talking about that they all pushed for? I am missing something.
    They all support the idea of all that champion, prophecy, Shanshu silliness. At that point, there was no reason to doubt it. Then it all falls down in S3-S5. All his friends die because of it. He loses his son to Holtz because of it. Then ater, he agrees to end the world because a dog told him to. They could have at least conjured up the ghost of Cordy or Wes or something. Instead they use a dog to draw attention to how stupid it is. This goes back to the spirit of the original question. Did Joss think Angel would be forgiven? The answer is yes. They thought that because they lampshaded how stupid it was, people would roll with it.

    Angel has done stupid things in the past, but people oversimplify it by saying it was all about some mumbo-jumbo words on a page. There were other factors involved in those decisions. I'm not saying Spike is destiny's lapdog, either. I'm saying that you have to remove a whole lot of context, changes and growth to pair those things up with the comics. It would be like Willow randomly skinning people on the street and claiming it makes sense because she did it before.

    That's the thing about the comics as a whole. They want them to be an official continuation but at the same time, nothing is supposed to really count. They want the 4th wall to exist and not exist at the same time.
    Last edited by HardlyThere; 17-04-18 at 04:07 AM.

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    They all have destinies. It's not selective to Angel. There is a whole episode dedicated to stealing destinies.
    As I recall Lorne used his abilities to single out people with destinies in the episode.



    And there he is, a few eps later doing what Lindsey tells him and fighting Angel over a prophecy.
    As I said - Spike doesn't believe in destiny. He wanted a chance to beat some sense into Angel because Angel's attitude pissed him off. But he told Angel he could keep his destiny.



    After he did it, he still did it.
    Cuz they do that to each other. Those two were gonna fight as soon as Spike recorporealized.
    As for Doyle - He tired the destiny line on Spike, and Spike throttled him. He's out helping the helpless because Angel has gone over to the other side. At least according to Lindsey. You have a destiny was a no-starter there.



    They all support the idea of all that champion, prophecy, Shanshu silliness. At that point, there was no reason to doubt it. Then it all falls down in S3-S5. All his friends die because of it. He loses his son to Holtz because of it. Then ater, he agrees to end the world because a dog told him to. They could have at least conjured up the ghost of Cordy or Wes or something. Instead they use a dog to draw attention to how stupid it is. This goes back to the spirit of the original question. Did Joss think Angel would be forgiven? The answer is yes. They thought that because they lampshaded how stupid it was, people would roll with it.

    Angel has done stupid things in the past, but people oversimplify it by saying it was all about some mumbo-jumbo words on a page. There were other factors involved in those decisions. I'm not saying Spike is destiny's lapdog, either. I'm saying that you have to remove a whole lot of context, changes and growth to pair those things up with the comics. It would be like Willow randomly skinning people on the street and claiming it makes sense because she did it before.

    That's the thing about the comics as a whole. They want them to be an official continuation but at the same time, nothing is supposed to really count. They want the 4th wall to exist and not exist at the same time
    .

    I probably would need to read the comics to decide that.
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    Oh, whistle, and I'll come to you, my lad.
    Sorry, irrelevant MR James musing.
    The more I read in this thread and think about it, the less I understand about Angel's motivations. After all, when all the slaughter under Twilight was happening, how did he not realise this was, you know, not actually a good thing?
    I'm obviously oversimplifying things here. I take it the position is that he was not "himself" or in his right mind? But then, crucially for him I think, the soul makes no difference. He may want to do good, but is he doomed not to be able to because of his misguided presumptions about destiny?
    I'm getting in a real muddle here. As you can tell.
    I should probably just go and read through the darned thing for myself, shouldn't I. Not sure I can bear it. I hate seeing any character trashed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bespangled View Post
    As I recall Lorne used his abilities to single out people with destinies in the episode.
    And yet destinies exist and can be stolen and sold off to others. He singled out the ones with value.

    As I said - Spike doesn't believe in destiny. He wanted a chance to beat some sense into Angel because Angel's attitude pissed him off. But he told Angel he could keep his destiny.
    Cuz they do that to each other. Those two were gonna fight as soon as Spike recorporealized.
    As for Doyle - He tired the destiny line on Spike, and Spike throttled him. He's out helping the helpless because Angel has gone over to the other side. At least according to Lindsey. You have a destiny was a no-starter there.
    SPIKE
    Well, I've been prancing around thinking I had a destiny. Love to drown my embarrassment in a few pints.


    He doesn't fall out of it until he drinks MD from cup and nothing happens. Dru was his destiny. The cup was his destiny... until they weren't.

    As I said, I'm not saying Spike does think that way, but if you want to go back and cherry-pick scenes and remove context, you can do it for everyone.

    I probably would need to read the comics to decide that.
    Heaven forbid you do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanSlayer View Post
    I think DH itself isn't sure what to do with Angel anymore.
    Which is funny in a way.
    I remember Scott Allie saying that it was such a huge mistake for Dark Horse to lose the Angel comic rights to IDW, and the hype when DH got the Angel license back. But in the end DH hasn't really done much with the Angel the Series characters outside of bringing Fred back/destroying all of Illyria's character development, and not using Gunn and Connor.

    I know that personally for me I've been very underwhelmed with Dark Horses Angel comics. I read Angel Season 11 not too long ago, and in my opinion it was the worst Angel comic series that I have ever had the misfortune of reading.

    I really do wish that IDW still had the Angel comic license after reading Angel Season 11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lostsoul666 View Post
    Which is funny in a way.
    I remember Scott Allie saying that it was such a huge mistake for Dark Horse to lose the Angel comic rights to IDW, and the hype when DH got the Angel license back. But in the end DH hasn't really done much with the Angel the Series characters outside of bringing Fred back/destroying all of Illyria's character development, and not using Gunn and Connor.

    I know that personally for me I've been very underwhelmed with Dark Horses Angel comics. I read Angel Season 11 not too long ago, and in my opinion it was the worst Angel comic series that I have ever had the misfortune of reading.

    I really do wish that IDW still had the Angel comic license after reading Angel Season 11.
    I really enjoyed Angel & Faith S9, but I think the problems began when Christos Gage was moved over to the Buffy title. Everything depend on the writing and Gage knew these characters so well that A&F S9 was considered the best Angel comic for a long time. Until Buffy S11 imo, which is the best of the bunch, also written by Gage

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    @HardlyThere

    Angel is destiny guy - magical snowfall, PTB, seers, oracles, and senior partners trying to make him dark so he can pay the part they want him to play in the apocalypse to be.

    And I have no idea what you think I cherry picked and removed content from but this seems kinda pot meet kettle. No need to get you knickers in a twist. I ship Spike/Angel. I have my own views on their differences, and I certainly wouldn't bother to distort or deny for the sake of winning a meaningless exchange of opinions.

    Last edited by bespangled; 17-04-18 at 11:34 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lostsoul666 View Post
    Which is funny in a way.
    I remember Scott Allie saying that it was such a huge mistake for Dark Horse to lose the Angel comic rights to IDW, and the hype when DH got the Angel license back. But in the end DH hasn't really done much with the Angel the Series characters outside of bringing Fred back/destroying all of Illyria's character development, and not using Gunn and Connor.

    I know that personally for me I've been very underwhelmed with Dark Horses Angel comics. I read Angel Season 11 not too long ago, and in my opinion it was the worst Angel comic series that I have ever had the misfortune of reading.

    I really do wish that IDW still had the Angel comic license after reading Angel Season 11.
    Allie was more an Angel guy than Buffy. The same with all these writers. It's probably not a coincidence.

    They got Angel back because Joss wanted it, not because they had big plans. Well, Joss claimed he had a big, epic story but the proof is in the pudding. Or isn't, as the case may be.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bespangled View Post
    @HardlyThere

    Angel is destiny guy - magical snowfall, PTB, seers, oracles, and senior partners trying to make him dark so he can pay the part they want him to play in the apocalypse to be.
    And he had an arc where all that was driven into the ground. You can see Spike's arc in S5 as an extremely fast-tracked version of Angel's. He believed in destiny, then found out it was bull from people trying to play him. Imagine if after Spike slams Lindsey, the very next episode he's talking to a dog and is convinced to end the world. That's pretty much what happens in the comics.

    And I have no idea what you think I cherry picked and removed content from but this seems kinda pot meet kettle. No need to get you knickers in a twist. I ship Spike/Angel. I have my own views on their differences, and I certainly wouldn't bother to distort or deny for the sake of winning a meaningless exchange of opinions.
    I never said you did. I said the rationale used for the justification of that storyline could be used for any character. You are hardly the first to use it. I'm not saying it would have made sense for it to have been Spike to take that mask off. I'm saying just the opposite. I'm saying you cannot remove context or arcs to justify something happening later. Spike, Willow, Buffy, Angel, any character at all.

    It's completely irrelevant what you ship or don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HardlyThere View Post
    A talking dog is fine. A talking dog, in the span of a few minutes, convincing a major character to end the world are two different things. Teeth didn't somehow sway Buffy into being his muscle in their brief conversation, did he?
    The talking dog doesn't tell Angel to end the world in any of these panels, though? In fact, if I remember the issue correctly, we're then treated to an overlap of scenes (clearly over a substantial period of time) of the voices talking to Angel through various people and instructing him what to do. The scene with the talking dog is only the beginning but we're missing the scene where the dog actually instructs Angel to bring about the Twilight prophecy and a lot of scenes after that. The scene with the talking dog only shows us their very first encounter and Angel being imbued with his Twilight powers.

    So it's not correct to say it takes Angel mere minutes to end the world. We're not even privy to that conversation and for all we know it doesn't happen until much later down the line. We also don't know if Angel didn't resist for a while or that the reason Twilight enlisted Whistler wasn't because Angel didn't need further convincing from someone who he'd undoubtedly trust.

    And yeah, I can't care about the ridiculousness of the talking dog. People do remember that Wesley went to a talking hamburger for advice about stealing Angel's child, right?
    "You've got ... a world of strength in your heart. I know you do. You just have to find it again. Believe in yourself."

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    The talking dog just does a good job of feeding Angel all the facile bait that one can lead Angel to later be sold on the idea of destroying the world and persecuting people he claims to love. It didn't take minutes to convince him to end the world, true. Probably took... days? Maybe some matter of weeks?

    Wait, no, we don't really know and can never know, because we don't (I don't remember anyway) ever see the initial pitch of the full implications here. So it's entire possible that Whistler did convince him in mere minutes upon broaching the subject. But again, he might have held out for days, weeks even. I mean, surely any reasonably moral and upright champion of the helpless can be convinced to destroy the world and hunt his ex and absolutely be the proximate cause of the death of many of her friends and/or followers if someone put a couple months into convincing him it will fulfill his epic destiny, right?

    My hero.

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    Yeah they way they handled all this it was a tad "We kill the helpless" rather then we help them.

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