Overall power rankings of beings, good and bad, including the PTB, WR&H, etc.

[MikeB]

Your idea of "power levels" are pretty vaugue.

They're not unless you've forgotten the content of the thread. Barring Xander, you'd agree with my power rankings?


* Fred v.s. Xander: I maintain that AtS s1-s4 could be because of Jasmine. But could Xander have survived 5 years in Pylea? In addition, Fred was regularly patrolling with the Fang Gang and I don't recall many times she's considered a liability or a detriment. Fred never had to have a "The Zeppo" (B 3.13)-type episode.


* Andrew Wells vs. Xander: AtS S5, BtVS S8, BtVS S9, etc. Andrew in BtVS S6 could summon demons. Overall, his power ranking is above Xander's.


* Oz is a werewolf and even Xander placed himself below Oz.


* Anya, I'd obviously use her vengeance demon form when placing her above Xander.


* Cordelia: Have you not seen AtS? Half-demon Cordy was arguably more powerful than Buffy. Cordy became a higher power. Even human Cordy became a better fighter than Xander.


* Billy the Vampire Slayer: Are you joking? Why wouldn't he place above Xander?

Could your character bias be at work here?

You're being silly by including those like Anya, Cordelia, and Billy as those who should rank below Xander.


* Given BtVS S9, I consider Dawn the Key who is simply 'formed' to look like Dawn. If I remember correctly, you consider Season 10 and Season 11 canon, and Dawn at some point has incredible superpowers.

[Vampire in Rug]

* Fred v.s. Xander: I maintain that AtS s1-s4 could be because of Jasmine. But could Xander have survived 5 years in Pylea? In addition, Fred was regularly patrolling with the Fang Gang and I don't recall many times she's considered a liability or a detriment. Fred never had to have a "The Zeppo" (B 3.13)-type episode.

Could Xander survive five years in Pylea? Assuming he was just as fortunate in finding food, water and shelter, then sure, why the hell not?

So you really think that Xander would lose to Fred in a fistfight?

* Andrew Wells vs. Xander: AtS S5, BtVS S8, BtVS S9, etc. Andrew in BtVS S6 could summon demons. Overall, his power ranking if above Xander's.

Andrew presumably needs time, space and equipment to summon demons. We are talking about a straight up fistfight here. Using the hellhounds you're keeping in the basement would be considered cheating. During an actual fight, Xander wouldn't give Andrew the opportunity to paint a pentagram in blood or light candles and shit. Xander is physically stronger, and Andrew is often a wimp. Andrew is the butt monkey way more than Xander.

Ozis a werewolf and even Xander placed himself below Oz.

In wolf form, obviously Oz would tear apart a standard human. I'm talking about in human form. Xander said he could fit Oz in his shaving kit.

* Anya, I'd obviously use her vengeance demon form when placing her above Xander.

Fair enough.

* Cordelia: Have you not seen AtS? Half-demon Cordy was arguably more powerful than Buffy. Cordy became a higher power. Even human Cordy became a better figher than Xander.

Half-demon Cordy could receive the visions without pain, could float a few inches off the ground and could release a calming glow. I don't think we saw anything to suggest that she had enhanced strength/speed/durability. When Cordy was fighting Willow with magic she was being possessed by Jasmine.

Billy the Vampire Slayer: Are you joking? Why wouldn't he place above Xander?

Because he's a decade younger/less experienced, because he's shorter and skinnier. We've seen Billy training a grand total of once, by himself -so that he could stand up to bullies. Xander has trained with Slayers, probably for over a year so that he can face off against beings who are trying to actually kill him. Xander's day to day job keeps him in good shape too.

I will concede that if a Xander/Billy fight was written into the book, Billy would have to come out of it the winner because the writers wouldn't dare face the wrath of all the snowflakes who would be offended over any other outcome, but the same would be true if Billy fought Riley, Wood, Gunn, Dowling and possibly a handful of the superhumans as well.

If it came down to it, Billy's plot armor and the writer's virtue signaling would allow him to win just about any fight, but if we applied any level of realism to the situation, Xander's greater size, reach and experience should make such a fight a no-brainer.

You're being silly by including those like Anya, Cordelia, and Billy as those who should rank below Xander.

And you're being silly with regards to a lot of the ridiculous shit you claim too.

Given BtVS S9, I consider Dawn the Key who is simply 'formed' to look like Dawn. If I remember correctly, you consider Season 10 and Season 11 canon, and Dawn at some point has incredible superpowers.

Dawn got incredible superpowers in the Anharra hell dimension because of her being the Key. It was pretty ridiculous because ever since Glory was thwarted in season 5, Dawn has been treated like she's another normal person, -just with a weird origin story. As far as we are aware, Anharra might be the only dimension where being the Key gives you omnipotence. I assume all the hypothetical "fights" you are suggesting take place on the Buffyverse Earth dimension. Dawn doesn't have omnipotence everywhere, on earth she's a woman in her early twenties who is just as mortal as the rest of us.

[MikeB]

Vampire in Rug


* It seems you may need to re-read or re-understand the thread title and what the thread is about.


* Even trying to discount Jasmine's influence and Fred's surviving Pylea, why do you consider Winifred Burkle and Alexander Harris comparable in terms of intelligence and resourcefulness?

A large part of Fred's surviving Pylea was her regard for her ability to possibly return to the Earth dimension.

Regarding Pylea, Xander's power would come from the Scoobies' ability and willingness to return him from Pylea.


* While I don't find pre-half-demon Cordelia's and Fred's fighting abilities realistic, they are what they are. Again, I don't recall Fred's needing a "The Zeppo" (B 3.13) episode. In fact, her "The Zeppo" episode revolved around how important all the Fang Gang's members considered her and how useful she was to the Fang Gang. Her fearlessness never needed to be demonstrated and never revolved around her love for Buffy.

I don't see how Xander is a more formidable opponent than the vampires and demons Fred regularly killed.


* Andrew Wells is more powerful than Xander. The thread isn't an arm-wrestling contest. Xander's power comes from his association with the Scoobies and from his relative bravery.

Andrew is also associated with the Scoobies; he also has his magic, his robotics knowledge, the continued loyalty of Slayers, his Number 2 Watcher status, etc.


* BTW, Andrew's Big Lie was relatively more consequential than Xander's. Andrew's Big Lie kept Spike away from Buffy for years until Spike was needed to save the world. Twilight itself wouldn't have happened if Andrew didn't do his Big Lie. Andrew also got away with making Buffy a robot.


* I remember that Oz can now change into werewolf form at-will (BtVS S8). He's more powerful than Xander.


* You apparently need to re-watch AtS s3 if you consider this: "Half-demon Cordy could receive the visions without pain, could float a few inches off the ground and could release a calming glow. I don't think we saw anything to suggest that she had enhanced strength/speed/durability."


* I remember I said my list is based on the Buffyverse up to the end of Season 9 and I put Season 10 stuff in italics, as I don't consider Season 10 can be canon. Billy is written as he is written but I don't recall anyone besides me criticizing Xander's and Dawn's being alive after all their fights with New Rules Vampires.

I would probably place Robot Buffy above Buffy and I would probably place Billy the Vampire Slayer above pre-Season 10 Faith and certainly above Kendra Young.


* Frankly, it seems you don't know how fights work. I remember you dismissed my Force = mass times acceleration explanations. Size and strength isn't everything, as fights are generally won with a combination of Force, Pressure, and Momentum.


* Dawn is Buffy's sister and is the Key. Dawn is a mini Watcher. Buffy trained Dawn for a time. Dawn is very important to Spike. Dawn is a fighter. Dawn is more powerful than Xander.


* Finally, you seem to only have a problem with where I might place Xander and you still haven't made your own list.

[Vampire in Rug]

I'll start off by saying that no, I'm not going to make my own list Mike. You need to get over that.

You said on the first page it's a who would beat whom thread. A tall, solid, reasonably fit guy in his mid 20s would almost certainly beat a shorter, skinnier teenager or a skinny female in combat if they've all had an equivalent level of training.

Do you actually think Fred, Andrew, Dawn or Billy, in a realistic setting (no PC snowflake bullshit) would beat Xander in a straight up physical fistfight? Don't dance around the question, just say yes so that I can point and laugh.

Andrew's "magical" skill would not help him in a fight. He can't fire energy beams like Willow or Giles can.

You are shifting the goal posts of what "power" means, first it was "who would win in a fight" and now it's whatever ambiguous bullshit you think it should mean.

Dawn is powerful because she's important to Spike? That's the metric that you're going to use to measure "power levels", really? Who am I kidding, of course it is.

Well shouldn't Angel top the list of powerful beings because he's important to The Powers That Be, W&H, Jasmine, Twilight and plenty of other powerful characters?

Stop telling other people to rewatch episodes, it's rude as ****.

Why would you place Billy above Faith and Kendra? You don't strike me as an SJW, so why the need to boost him so high? Even in season 9 he didn't do anything more impressive than dust a handful of zompires.

Season 10 and 11 are canon, unless you want to declare yourself the arbiter of canon?

You think Spike won the fight against Angel in In the Dark, and you're going to tell me that I don't understand how fights work?

Which vampires and demons has Fred killed that outshine anything Xander has done? I can't think of any amazing combat examples off the top of my head?

Seriously, who cares why you edit a post? Is it really necessary to add the reason every single time?

[KingofCretins]

His definition of power will always trend very closely to that which proves that Spike is the greatest fighter and that all the ladies want to be with him and the men want to be him and/or with him, and conversely that Xander is the worst at everything

This thread makes me miss the Buffyverse in it's early and middle days when it was still understood that vampires were A) more powerful and agile than humans, but not insurmountably so, and B) that vampires were formidable demons unto themselves and not paper tigers compared to the (insert nonsense word) demons, and that truly phenomenal powers were rare and frightening (Illyria, Glory, the Beast, Caleb). When the 'scale', such as it is, was much more compressed.

For perspective, I am thinking of back in the 90s when both DC and Image Comics did their own version of Batman/Spawn crossovers. The Image one was written by Frank Miller and pencilled by Todd McFarlane (I know, right?), and I remember vividly how Batman would land blows that would affect Spawn, and stun him, but they weren't having nearly the effect they'd have on humans and they were actually hurting Batman to land him. But it wasn't an insurmountable obstacle, he was able to hold his own against Spawn despite being a Badass Normal only. I miss the feeling that those were the terms of the Buffyverse, that Gunn or Xander or such could have, literally, a puncher's chance in fighting off a vampire, but couldn't fight them in numbers or if they didn't have the element of surprise or something. I liked when that was the biggest identifiable difference between a Slayer and a normie, that where Giles could get surrounded by a few vampires and just say "... damn", Buffy had the instinct, strength, and agility to still fight through that.

[Vampire in Rug]

I know what you mean King. I miss the days where the villian was someone who could be fought and killed, their goal of ending the world took a backseat to the themes and development of the scoobies -whose relationships and feelings would evolve and change in relatable ways.

I miss the days when not *every single season* was about redefining the rules of magic. I miss when magic itself was something that could be utilized, but it was still mysterious and it wasn't nearly as in-your-face as it is these days because the series was primarily about *killing vampires* and the writers weren't trying to make it Harry Potter or Star Wars. I miss when it was generally understood that demons were evil with a few very rare exceptions, rather than just making them Star Trek aliens because that's more "adult".

I hear you about powerlevels King. Remember when the vampires of LA were scared of Gunn? And how Angel trusted Gunn to be the one to take him down if he went evil again? Remember how Wood, Riley and Holtz could be effective vampire hunters with enough training? As you said, vampires were stronger and more agile than a regular human, but not insurmountably so. Xander or Giles could get the drop on a regular vamp and stand a decent chance.

[MikeB]

Vampire in Rug

* Other than only wanting to complain about my list, not making your own list doesn’t make much sense for the thread.


* I never said the rankings only regard who would beat whom in one-on-one fights.


* The list doesn’t regard ‘real world examples’—the list regards the Buffyverse.


* We saw Angel training Cordelia. We saw Buffy training Dawn.


* Lumping Billy the Vampire Slayer in with Winifred Burkle, Dawn Summers, and Andrew Wells is beyond laughable.


* Unless you acknowledge that any sense of Buffyverse reality would have both Xander and Dawn killed in Season 10, I cannot take your Xander arguments seriously.


* I wouldn’t rank Andrew Wells at Dark Willow or above level and I wouldn’t rank Andrew at Season 10 Giles level.


* It almost seems you’re trying to compare BtVS S7 Xander and BtVS S7 Andrew.


* Regarding the thread topic, I’ve always been consistent. You seem to be trying to debate whether real-life Nicholas Brendan could beat up the following: real-life Tom Lenk, real-life Michelle Trachtenberg, and real-life Amy Acker.


* I consider Spike allowed Caleb to poke out Xander’s eye (“Dirty Girls” (B 7.18)). If Dawn were in such immediate danger, Spike would have knocked Caleb away before Dawn’s eye was poked out. Spike in BtVS S9 went back to Sunnydale to save Dawn. Were Xander in such danger, Spike would more likely have stayed in London longer.

Dawn is powerful because she's important to Spike? That's the metric that you're going to use to measure "power levels", really?

Saying “the” is clearly a straw man argument (SMA). Dawn’s also more important to Buffy than Xander is.

Well shouldn't Angel top the list of powerful beings because he's important to The Powers That Be, W&H, Jasmine, Twilight and plenty of other powerful characters?

Angel is used by “The Powers That Be, W&H, Jasmine, Twilight and plenty of other powerful characters”. That makes Angel a puppet, not a more powerful character than those listed above him.

Stop telling other people to rewatch episodes, it's rude as ****.

No, what is rude is debating something when one doesn’t even remember—or remember correctly—the things one is debating.

Why would you place Billy above Faith and Kendra? You don't strike me as an SJW, so why the need to boost him so high? Even in season 9 he didn't do anything more impressive than dust a handful of zompires.

I was one who most criticized Billy the Vampire Slayer and I remember being one of the—perhaps the first one—on BF and SA to argue that it made around zero sense that Billy went from being picked on by high school jocks and being not able to even punch a speed bag well to being able to better kill zompires than actual Slayers could. Nevertheless, I had to place Season 10 Faith so high because of her fighting ability and I would apply the same logic to Billy.

Season 10 and 11 are canon, unless you want to declare yourself the arbiter of canon?

I remember Joss Whedon’s saying he hasn’t been much involved with the comics since Season 8. In my opinion, it seems Joss has dismissed Season 10 and 11 and is simply writing the Giles miniseries as a social commentary on the American public high school system.

Joss wanted to do a Buffy abortion storyline. Joss—in my opinion—wanted Buffy and Spike together and be ‘endgame’. That’s all the info needed for post-Season 8.


* Angel took actual damage in “In the Dark” (A 1.03) from Spike. There is around zero indication that Spike was hurt from that fight.


* I don’t remember yours ever addressing that Fred is rarely if ever considered a liability for the Fang Gang during their patrols and fighting demons and whatnot.

Seriously, who cares why you edit a post? Is it really necessary to add the reason every single time?

At least one person cares why I edit my posts and that is all that matters.

____________________________________

* The vampires of Los Angeles were scared of Gunn and gang, not Gunn the single person.

There’s around zero indication Angel actually considered Gunn would beat him in a fight.


* I didn’t list “average vampire”, so I wonder if you consider Drusilla, Spike, and Angel are ‘average vampires’.



KingofCretins

[ MikeB ’s] definition of power will always trend very closely to that which proves that Spike is the greatest fighter and that all the ladies want to be with him and the men want to be him and/or with him, and conversely that Xander is the worst at everything

Maybe that is at least partly hyperbole?

I hope that you wouldn’t rank Xander above Spike in such a ranking of Overall power rankings of beings, good and bad, including the PTB, WR&H, etc.

Anyway, watch “School Hard” (B 2.03) again. Buffy had already killed Lothos and the Master yet Giles reasons it’d be a good idea for the Scoobies to leave town. Giles is always concerned about Spike’s ability to kill Buffy.

I wonder if you consider the Xander is more of a “ladies man” than Spike is? Because canon states otherwise.

BtVS implies that Xander was at least partly sexually attracted to both Riley Finn and Spike.

This thread makes me miss the Buffyverse in it's early and middle days when it was still understood that vampires were A) more powerful and agile than humans, but not insurmountably so, and B) that vampires were formidable demons unto themselves and not paper tigers compared to the (insert nonsense word) demons, and that truly phenomenal powers were rare and frightening (Illyria, Glory, the Beast, Caleb). When the 'scale', such as it is, was much more compressed.

Um, no. It seems you are misremembering the Buffyverse.

The whole point of the Slayer is that she is the only human in the world who can beat back the forces of darkness and is the only human who can regularly kill vampires.

Buffy killed Lothos and killed the Master. Yet Spike is introduced as more dangerous to Buffy than Lothos and the Master were and Spike beats Buffy in their first fight.

Kendra stalemated a Buffy whose knee was at least slightly hurt. Drusilla in “Becoming Part II” (B 2.22) very easily kills Kendra.

“Welcome to the Hellmouth” (B 1.01) introduces that there are other things than vampires that Buffy must kill.

The Mayor in BtVS S3 became unkillable and then a “real demon” and the series went on from there to introduce Adam, Glory, Dark Willow, the First Evil, etc.

“The Zeppo” (B 3.13) happened for a reason; Xander was often considered a liability. Spike in “Doomed” (B 4.11) could tell Willow and Xander that both are probably liabilities for Buffy when Buffy patrols and that Buffy would probably do better without them.

Willow became a witch. It’s Xander’s own fault that he didn’t train with Riley or anyone.

For perspective, I am thinking of back in the 90s when both DC and Image Comics did their own version of Batman/Spawn crossovers. The Image one was written by Frank Miller and pencilled by Todd McFarlane (I know, right?), and I remember vividly how Batman would land blows that would affect Spawn, and stun him, but they weren't having nearly the effect they'd have on humans and they were actually hurting Batman to land him. But it wasn't an insurmountable obstacle, he was able to hold his own against Spawn despite being a Badass Normal only.

The idea of Batman is one of the stupidest things in comics and the superhero genre in general. There is no actual need for Batman. And Batman spawns the whole “Batman with prep” is the most powerful being in all of comics ‘meme’ that many attest to.

Nevertheless, Batman is “peek human”, is super intelligent, and has tons of weapons, vehicles, and gadgets.

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Batman_(Post-Crisis) Listed as 8-C.
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Batm...st-Flashpoint) Listed as 9-A.
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Buffy_Summers and http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Spike and http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Faith_Lehane all 8-C. So, pre-Flashpoint, Batman is comparable to Buffy, Faith, and Spike. Post-Flashpoint, he is not comparable.

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Angel/Angelus Angel is listed as 9-B.

Anyway, someone like Riley Finn, Robin Wood, Charles Gunn are not “peek human” and Xander Harris might not even be “athlete” level.


* I get the feeling that you are trying to label Drusilla, Spike, and Angel as ‘normal’ or ‘regular’ vampires that someone like Charles Gunn or Xander Harris could have any chance of defeating.


EDIT:

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Sam_Winchester Sam Winchester in 'normal form' is listed as 9-C.
http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Dean_Winchester Dean Winchester in 'normal form' is listed as 9-C.

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Tiering_System

Where would you put Xander Harris? He'd be either 10-B or 10-A at-most.

Robin Wood could possibly be 9-C: Street level and I'd probably only put 'Enhanced Riley' as 9-C and regular Riley as 10-A: Athlete level.

[MikeB]

I'm still not sure how to exactly rank the non-supernatural humans. I'll have to consider this more/further before including the below in the Power Ranking List.


- Andrew Wells

He can summon demons, he is essentially Watcher #2 (or #1 after Giles dies), and he commands Slayers.


- Warren Meers

Even without the 'balls', he can make robots that are better than most Slayers.


- Enhanced Riley

Did relatively well against "The Yoko Factor" (B 4.20) Angel. And Enhanced Riley surprised Buffy in "Out of My Mind" (B 5.04). Obviously, he wasn't long-lasting given probably less than 2 years being 'Enhanced' and he was essentially dying.


- Robin Wood

I place him above Charles Gunn because Robin Wood is properly trained and he was fighting and killing vampires on his own hoping to kill the one that killed his Slayer mother. Gunn mostly killed vampires as part of a group, his 'Gunn gang', and then the Fang Gang.


- Riley Finn

He uses advanced military weaponry, likely has diplomatic immunity; his connection to The United States Military and the United States Government makes him very powerful. Arguably, he could be placed above Enhanced Riley.


- Wesley Wyndam-Pryce

Is more ruthless than Gunn is. Is a better and more capable leader than Gunn. Has magical abilities.


- Charles Gunn

He only has 'street smarts' fighting skills. It seems he was never properly trained.


If one doesn't consider Jasmine is responsible for her fighting skills, Winifred Burkle should be placed above Xander and Dawn. I consider Jasmine is responsible for Fred's pre-AtS S5 fighting skills, so...


- Rupert Giles

Somehow is much more competent as Ripper than not; so, Giles essentially limits himself to not 'be evil'. He has some magical abilities.


- Alexander Lavelle Harris


- Winifred Burkle


- Dawn Summers

She clearly shows some fighting skills in BtVS S7, but she doesn't have the experience Xander and Fred do.

[MikeB]

All caught up.

All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




I updated the list (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...l=1#post696517) (post #1) to include Impata from "Inca Mummy Girl" (B 2.04).



* I'm still not sure how to rank the non-magical humans.

Robin Wood and Riley Finn both have formal training. Robin probably has better training than Riley outside of maybe firearm and explosives training. I'd put Robin over non-Enhanced Riley Finn.

I'm not sure if Charles Gunn can be placed above Robin Wood. Gunn was one of the Fang Gang like Wesley, Cordy, and Fred. Buffy in BtVS S7 treats Robin as a quasi-Slayer--given she has him patrol with Spike and her.


* Winifred Burkle has more 'in the field' experience than Dawn Summers. But Dawn's the Key and the Scoobies--through Buffy--are willing the risk the entire world for Dawn ("The Gift" (B 5.22) and

Spoiler:

BtVS S9).

Spike and Angel aren't even willing to let perhaps thousands die to save Fred ("A Hole in the World" (A 5.15)).

[bespangled]

Did you see a different end to A Hole In The World than the rest of us?

[MikeB]

All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc. [/i]

Did you see a different end to A Hole In The World than the rest of us?

That was obviously a typo given Spike and Angel didn't save Fred in "A Hole in the World" (A 5.15).

[flow]

I haven't read other Posts in the thread, so Maybe this Question has come up before. How are These characters even comparable?

The First Evil cannot be touched and therefore not be defeated. That's its strengths but at the same time it can't touch anything. That's its weakness.

Angel and Spike (and every other vampire) are nearly unbeatable as long as you haven't got a stake at hand. If you have one (even better a crossbow) they are dust. Or you can simply open a window and let the sunlight in.

They are incredibly powerful and incredibly weak at the same time.

Buffy's strength is not consistent throughout 12 seasons. Who do you think would win a fight between Buffy Season 1 and Buffy Season 12? Or even Buffy Season 1 and Buffy Season 7? Which season's Buffy did you pick for your ranking?

flow

[MikeB]

All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




* I'm not sure where exactly to place Vampire Willow. She's more powerful than pre-Buffy blood Angel. She's intimidated by crosses. Wesley having a cross and Holy Water is enough to have her 'back off' from killing Cordelia and him. And she's killed by non-werewolf Oz.

I'd probably place her above Harmony Kendall. I'm not sure about Connor. Vampire Willow easily got vampire minions. Connor is a lone fighter or is an underling of someone else (Jasmine, arguably

Spoiler:

Spike in After the Fall )

.

I haven't read other Posts in the thread

It seems you need to read the Original Post aka post #1.

I always pick the most powerful version of the character--meaning Season 8 or Season 9 (I reason Season 10 and after cannot be canon.) I separate various versions if an earlier version is more powerful than a later version; for example, Season 8 Willow and Season 10 Willow.

[MikeB]

All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.



I considerably increased Buffy Anne Summers's ranking after re-watching "The Gift" (B 5.22) and re-reading Tales of the Vampires: "Antique". I placed Buffy above Dracula. She was previously placed right below William the Bloody aka Spike.

Buffy's main weakness is not being immortal.



* I'll try to soon include Anyanka, Daniel Osbourne (given BtVS S8, he can change into werewolf form at-will), Dana (whom I'd place above Satsu, Simone Doffler, etc. and likely above Faith), the various 'bots (Buffy-Buffybot, Buffybot, Aprilbot), Doc (from BtVS S5), and the various humans.

Xander is shown able to punch vampires hard, but he never becomes a "demon fighter". I'm not sure how much to credit Jasmine for human Cordelia's and human Fred's pre- Angel S5 demon-fighting abilities.

[MikeB]

All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.



I edited the Buffy Anne Summers, Dracula, Drusilla, and the Beast sections. I put the Beast considerably lower on the list. He's not close to Caleb. I now put him below Amy Madison.



* Regarding Faith Lehane's relatively low placement compared to Buffy:

Faith was similar enough to Buffy in BtVS S3 and BtVS S4. But they haven't really fought since and Buffy got considerably more powerful in BtVS S5. And then more powerful in BtVS S6. And then more powerful in BtVS S7. And then more powerful in BtVS S8.

[Priceless]

Why have you put The Beast below Amy? I think she must lose points for her years as a rat, when she had no strength and could have been beaten by pretty much everyone else in the verse.

[MikeB]

All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




After realizing Buffy with the Scythe would beat the Beast, the Beast now is placed below Buffy. This in turn makes Wolfram & Hart also placed below Buffy.


* Wolfram & Hart's biggest accomplishments include (1) having the resources to destroy Illyria's army after Illyria is already dead and (2) having an amulet that can help to stop the First Evil's apocalypse in BtVS S7. In addition, Wolfram & Hart is the organization as a whole. The Scooby Gang would relatively easily defeat Wolfram & Hart. Even Spike if he had Illyria and Spider and Co. (and maybe the bugship) could be placed above Wolfram & Hart.

Why have you put The Beast below Amy? I think she must lose points for her years as a rat, when she had no strength and could have been beaten by pretty much everyone else in the verse.

Whether it made sense or not, Amy in BtVS S6 and after is very powerful. The Beast would stand very little and likely around no chance against BtVS S8 Amy Madison. My previous mistake was considering the Beast comparable to Caleb.

But the Beast and therefore Wolfram & Hart were actually placed much too high.


The Beast defeated the entire Fang Gang sans Connor and sans half-demon Cordelia. That's not even remotely similar to Caleb's beating 2 waves of Buffy and Co. Only Angel was at-all formidable. Gunn with an axe? Wesley with his guns? Lorne?

Buffy with her Scythe could have killed that group of Angel, Gunn, Wesley, and Lorne.

[MikeB]

All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




More edits to Caleb, Full-Powered Illyria, Amy Madison, Dark Willow, Morgan, Love Spell Jasmine, Buffy Anne Summers, the Beast, Wolfram & Hart, Dracula, Whistler, William Pratt aka William the Bloody aka Spike, UberVamp #1, Groosalugg, Post-Love Spell Jasmine,

I now have Morgan placed above Adam. Adam's minions aside from Spike and 'Adam' Forrest weren't special. And Enhanced Riley beat 'Adam' Forrest. Spike would have teamed with Morgan instead of Adam.

I moved Angel from being placed below the Master to being placed above Ampata. Angel's strength and power considerably increased after 'draining' Buffy in "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22).


Angel didn't seem to get a permanent power boost after feeding from Hamilton. Angel may have gotten a permanent power boost from draining Drogyn, but Angel was still less strong and less powerful than Faith. It's possible Faith's blood being drugged is why Angel didn't seem to get a power boost from drinking Faith ( Angel S4).

Hamilton's ranking is so low because Angel's teeth could easily penetrate Hamilton's skin. And I don't recall ever seeing a vampire use its (or his or her) teeth to bite through or cut through hard metal.


I added Anyanka, Billy the Vampire Slayer, Enhanced Riley Finn, Robin Wood, Charles Gunn, Riley Finn, Andrew Wells, Alexander Lavelle Harris, and Dawn Summers (not including Season 10 Dawn)

I'll need to look through Season 9 to see if Billy the Vampire Slayer should actually be placed above Angel. I don't remember his being as formidable as pre-Season 10 Faith. But I don't remember Angel doing as well against zompires a Billy did.


I need to look through Season 8 and Season 9 to see where Simone Doffler should be placed and where Satsu should be placed. Both would likely likely be above Angel. But I'm not sure if they would be placed above Billy the Vampire Slayer.

I need to re-watch "Damage" (A 5.11) to see how high Dana should be placed. I'd put her above Faith, but I'm not sure how far above.

I need to re-watch Angel to see how high Winifred Burkle, Cordelia Chase, and half-demon Cordelia Chase should be placed. And how high Wesley should be placed.


EDIT: I added Dana the Vampire Slayer to the list. And Wesley.


EDIT #2: http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...h-vs-The-Beast


* I’m trying to determine whether I should increase pre-Season 10 Faith’s rank. I still need to re-watch the Post-Love Spell Jasmine fight with Angel, albeit her rank could be arguably placed lower than Connor’s given Connor immediately kills her.

I don’t see evidence that pre-Seaosn 10 Faith is more formidable than BtVS S7 Anyanka and certainly not UberVamp #1.

The Beast had a rock body and strikes hard. Is its body actually stronger than Adam’s? BtVS S4 Spike hurt his hand when he punched Adam in the stomach (“New Moon Rising” (B 4.19)).

We see in BtVS S6 that Spike and Buffy can punch through demon bodies. “Smashed” (B 6.09) argues they possibly could punch through or otherwise break the Beast’s skin.