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Thread: The Origin

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    Default The Origin

    Bullet Points and Analysis of The Origin

    The Origin 1 of 3

    * Joss Whedon says this is canon. It’s based off of his script for the movie Buffy the Vampire Slayer , meaning how the movie was actually supposed to be like.


    During this and future bullet points and analysis, I’m going to try to avoid all ‘re-capping’. I’m going to try to focus on analysis.



    * Lothos was already a Slayer killer during the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages were from 476 C.E. to around 800 C.E. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...1663/Dark-Ages

    The Master was 880 years old – said outside of the show – and so Lothos was well over 1,000 years old when Buffy faced him, possibly well over 1,500 years old.


    * Buffy is either stupid or she’s pretending to be stupid in order to ‘fit in’ with her friends.


    * Buffy’s boyfriend Jeffrey is probably the head jock at Hemery High School.


    * Does Lothos’s minion’s sires look different from other vampires? Or if the ‘vamp version’ of Bessel ‘not canon’?

    - Bassel turns brown when in ‘vamp mode’.


    * Buffy’s parents have a Jaguar. They have a ‘housekeeper’: Consuela. Although the housekeeper seems rather terrible given she put Joyce’s underwear in the dishwasher. They live in a two-story house, and while the design seems a typical suburban house in an affluent neighborhood, it seems to be made of either brick or stone and it’s a detached garage.


    * It’s noticeable how much Hank Summers – whose name isn’t mentioned – looks like a older version of Buffy’s boyfriend.


    * Here, Hank Summers is a blonde while Joyce’s hair is brownish.

    This could make sense why Buffy’s hair color goes from blonde as a kid to brown as she grew up and why Dawn’s hair is brown.


    * There’s been 4 disappearances in less than two weeks.

    - Spike and Drusilla seemed to kill at least daily.


    * Somewhere in Hong Kong, somewhere in the 18th century C.E. the Slayer was/is a prostitute.

    - This is perhaps the first Slayer dream Buffy gets.


    * For some reason Lothos is sleeping under dirt. Lothos is green. His minion is building a new vampire family for Lothos.

    - The minion means to have Lothos and him (and the other vampires?) take over Los Angeles.

    - Wolfram and Hart obviously either isn’t aware this stuff is going on or aren’t trying to do anything to try to stop it.


    * Pike is clearly stalking Buffy, and dragging his friend along.


    * Buffy seems somewhat attracted to Pike or she’s simply somewhat amused by him.


    * Pike’s gross friend makes an ‘offering my hot dog’ joke to Buffy, points out to Pike that possibly Buffy and her friends have never seen a ‘hot dog’ before.

    - Buffy uses a steak knife to cleanly cut the hot dog and bun probably a centimeter or less above Benny’s thumb.


    * Benny to Pike, “When you get that car running mean, let’s Audi. Get away from this town. Those rich bitches, they’re a plague, man.”

    Pike to Benny, “You didn’t like them?”

    Benny to Pike, “They’re so stuck up. They’re not even human. I hate them.”

    Wow, Benny hates Buffy and her friends mostly because they wouldn’t have sex with him.

    This is somewhere between what Xander thinks of Buffy not wanting to have sex with him and what Spike does to Buffy in “Crush” (B 5.14).


    * Pike and Benny are losers. They sneak into movie theaters. They get drunk. It doesn’t seem they are doing well in school. Pike is stalking Buffy and Benny is even creepier.


    * POSSIBLE CANON DIFFERENCE BETWEEN “THE ORIGIN” AND “BECOMING PART I” (B 2.21).

    - The high school building that Buffy exists looks different.

    It looks nicer than the one in “Becoming Part I”. I don’t know which one is more likely canon. Given Joyce’s concern about Buffy going to a good high school, the nicer one in The Origin is more likely canon.

    - Buffy seems to perhaps not be dating Tyler as well. She’s still with Jeffrey and wants to go to the dance with Jeffrey.

    - Buffy stole lipstick from Macys. In “Becoming Part I”, it was Bullocks – probably a high-end boutique.

    The Buffy of the TV series shopped at Neiman Marcus and such, so the Bullocks thing is more likely canon than the Macys thing.


    * Merrick is gray-haired and obviously older than Rupert Giles is even in BtVS S8.


    * Buffy it seems perhaps had visions of all the previous scenes of ‘past Lothos’ that we saw in the comic.


    * Lothos doesn’t like his victim mentioning God.

    - Does Lothos believe in God? that God exists?


    * Buffy didn’t tell anyone about her dreams because she reasoned people would think she’s crazy.

    I’ve always reasoned that Buffy’s going to a mental institution was an implanted memory from the monks.


    * POSSIBLE CANON DIFFERENCE BETWEEN “THE ORIGIN” AND “BECOMING PART I” (B 2.21).

    - Buffy in the graveyard with Merrick is wearing a Purple puffy jacket, and jeans it seems. In “Becoming Part I” (B 2.21), she’s wearing a yellow puffy jacket and it seems some like of pajama pants.

    - Her first staking is very different in “Becoming Part I” (B 2.21).

    - The flashbacks in “Becoming Part I” (B 2.21) seem to be Angel’s memories.

    Buffy is FAR more ‘helpless’ in the flashback in “Becoming Part I” than she is in the scenes in The Origin .

    I like to lean toward the stuff in The Origin actually being canon and Angel simply remembered Buffy as being a lot more helpless than she actually was – probably simply to better try to justify to himself why HE needed to help her.

    “THE ORIGIN” Graveyard scene

    - The newly risen vampire was sired 3 days ago.

    In the Buffyverse, vampires mostly rose the night they were sired. But there were examples such as “Sleeper” (B 7.08) in which new vampires were sired at least days prior.

    - Merrick hands Buffy what appears to be a gold cross. He says she’s to watch while he actually slays the newborn vampire.

    - The newborn vampire has the green skin-tone and black claws thing.

    - It seems Merrick gives Buffy a stake after the vampire is beginning to rise; that or she picks the stake off the ground or she had previously dropped the stake when she heard the noise of the vampire rising.

    - Another vampire rises and grabs Buffy from behind. This vampire seems to have normal skin tone but it has green sclera.

    - Buffy’s cross now seems to be mirror color and is glinting.

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    It is important, subtle but very important, to note that Joss (who had no hand in the adaptation but was answering a question after the fact) said it was "essentially canon" (emphasis mine). To me, what that means without him spelling it out, is that in any points of conflict or inconsistency, all tie breakers go to what then was just the television show. Things like a vampire's skin tone and plot ephemera of that sort, can be safely ignored for what we saw on screen. Likewise, or even moreso, the tonal and textural differences between things like Buffy's first vampire... the tiebreaker obviously goes to "Becoming". The best and most clear reason is that Joss himself wrote both -- one a screenplay and a decade later a television episode he wrote and directed. He self-evidently decided that Buffy's personal journey benefited more from having faltered and panicked a little more, being a little more at sea, when thrown into that world. He could have done exactly what was done in the screenplay/"Origin", but chose not to, and we can only infer intent there.

    The thing I liked best in "Origin" that I wish had found its way into the aired series was Merrick's death, shooting himself to prevent Lothos from turning him and betraying Buffy's identity. That, though, is probably the biggest structural inconsistency, that of the importance of Buffy's identity being secret.

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    KingofCretins

    * Joss Whedon was asked about The Origin more than once. He later said it was canon.


    * Regarding "points of conflict or inconsistency", we must remember that apparently all the flashbacks in "Becoming Part I" (B 2.22) are Angel's memories.

    - Probably the only possibly 'not-canon' thing is the vampires being green, brown, etc. and perhaps those vampires that are already bat-like and whatnot right after being sired. It's similar to how the glowing eyes vampires we see in "Welcome to the Hellmouth" (B 1.01) and/or "The Harvest" (B 1.02) aren't canon.

    * Buffy's first slayings in The Origin makes perfect sense. She's naturally gifted, something both Merrick and Rupert Giles say. She easily kills Lothos. She relatively easily saves Los Angeles.

    Again, Angel wanted to be with Buffy and therefore decided to remember her as being someone who would need his help.


    Finally, I've so far only gone through part 1 of 3.


    Edit: By the way, The Origin was written and came out during the airing of BtVS S3.
    Last edited by MikeB; 15-03-14 at 02:19 AM. Reason: added info

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    - Her first staking is very different in “Becoming Part I” (B 2.21).

    - The flashbacks in “Becoming Part I” (B 2.21) seem to be Angel’s memories.

    Buffy is FAR more ‘helpless’ in the flashback in “Becoming Part I” than she is in the scenes in The Origin .

    I like to lean toward the stuff in The Origin actually being canon and Angel simply remembered Buffy as being a lot more helpless than she actually was – probably simply to better try to justify to himself why HE needed to help her.
    Again, Angel wanted to be with Buffy and therefore decided to remember her as being someone who would need his help.
    Nope. In Lessons Buffy tells Dawn that "her first time out [she] missed the heart too." So even if I were to agree with you that the flashbacks were meant to be Angel's "memories", which I don't, the flashbacks in Becoming I are accurate according to BUFFY HERSELF.

    I read Origins last night and, frankly, it's awful. There's so much about it that unnecessarily contradicts canon -- vampires turning brown, Buffy wearing the wrong clothes, Buffy's dialogue being changed outside of Hemery High, Buffy's slaying of her first vampire etc. The idea was to try and adapt the film with the TV show so it's nonsensical to me that the writer felt like it was necessary to change established scenes in the TV series when they should have been left exactly as they were.

    Whedon said that Origin can "pretty much" be accepted as canonical, which leaves a lot of wiggle room. It's obvious he paid no attention the comic when he wrote that scene in Lessons (referencing Buffy's first staking as he wrote it back in S2 as opposed to the comic's inaccurate version of events) and he said that "he had issues with it." Which I suspect is in reference to the comic's inaccurate depiction of scenes from the TV show that Whedon had had penned himself, and the ridiculous vampire transformations. It sounds more like Joss is saying you can accept the story as a broad outline if you like because he obviously had little interest in revisiting Buffy's life pre-Sunnydale in the actual show.

    TV series > comic. 100% canon > "Pretty much" canon that Joss Whedon "has issues with." Always. Especially when it comes to scenes written by the creator himself as opposed to three writers who never even worked on the TV series. If there's inconsistencies between Becoming I and The Origin then The Origin is wrong, pure and simple.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 15-03-14 at 02:50 AM.
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    Bullet Points and Analysis of The Origin

    The Origin 2 of 3

    * Merrick throws a ‘hunga munga’-type weapon – one without a handle – at Buffy to try to prove to her that she’s naturally gifted and therefore the Slayer.

    “Once More With Feeling” (B 6.07) is the first time I remember Giles throwing knives at Buffy. And those were relatively far less dangerous than the one Merrick throws at Buffy.


    * Merrick to Buffy, “Never underestimate yourself, Buffy. You’ve got abilities you’ve only begun to tap. Reserves of mental and physical prowess you’ve never dreamed of.”

    That mental part perhaps implies that Buffy’s increased academic ability is partly due to her becoming the Slayer.


    * Merrick’s training of Buffy seems more hardcore – especially relatively – than the training we see Giles giving her.


    * Anyone who read and remembered The Origin would know of Potential Slayers.


    * Caligula and Jack the Ripper was the same vampire.

    Caligula’s reign was from 37 C.E. to 41 C.E. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligula ) and Jack the Ripper was perhaps killing from 1888 C.E. to 1891 C.E.

    The Master is obviously a special vampire for Buffy to have feared him. She knew vampires could apparently be thousands of years old.


    * Merrick to Buffy, “Lothos was probably born in the 11th or 12th century. He’s been difficult to trace. His power has increased with age.”

    Unless the term “The Dark Ages” is being misused, Merrick is underestimating Lothos’s age a bit.


    * Merrick is looking at the obituaries and realizes that 3 or 4 people were killed the night before.

    There are now at least 8 vampires– not including Lothos – in Sunnydale by this time.


    * I reason it was Buffy’s idea to go to a priest and get water blessed in order to create Holy Water. It was also probably her idea to use Perrier. They are glass and no one would think twice about Buffy having them.


    * I reason it was Buffy’s idea to play a damsel in a bad part of Los Angeles in order to attract vampires.


    * I assume that unless Lothos or whoever is casting a spell and/or casting spells to make these new vampires ‘special looking’ vampires, that these vampires appearance aren’t canon. It took a long time for those like the Master and Kakistos to begin to look like various animals or whatever.


    * Buffy naturally likes slaying. Her later being ‘down’ on the slaying is purely the result of things like Merrick being killed, Buffy’s losing her friends and boyfriend, her boyfriend having sex with one of her former best friends, her being expelled from Hemery High School and having to leave Los Angeles, etc.


    * Buffy is Merrick’s 6th Slayer, so previous Slayers on average didn’t last more than a few years.


    * Andy, that’s called sexual assault and battery.


    * Jeffrey and Buffy’s best friends clearly should have reacted more to Jeffrey’s friend Andy sexually assaulting and battering Buffy.


    * Again, Buffy is slaying in jeans and sensible shoes.

    I have to assume that Buffy’s fighting in short skirts and short dresses, high healed boots, and such during BtVS S1-3 was to try to garner a male audience.


    * Lothos reasons that if he sires Merrick – apparently, that may be his surname – that Merrick as a newborn vampire would be powerful enough to kill Buffy.

    The most powerful newborn vampire we saw in the Buffyverse was Holden Webster (or perhaps William Pratt).


    * Lothos has fangs and claws even without being in his ‘vamp face’.

    I assume this is canon. Dracula and his 3 brides and therefore not the only such vampires to have existed.


    * Merrick kills himself in order to be able to be a danger to Buffy.

    Would Giles ever do such a thing? He offers to fight the Master in “Prophecy Girl” (B 1.12), but a prophecy said Buffy would die; Buffy quit being the Slayer, etc.

    I consider it possible that Merrick would have been a better Watcher to Buffy than Giles was.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________

    Edit:

    vampmogs

    In Lessons Buffy tells Dawn that "her first time out [she] missed the heart too."
    Buffy was trying to give Dawn some confidence.

    Millions watched “Becoming Part I” (B 2.21). Thousands read The Origin . Merrick’s name isn’t even mentioned in “Becoming Part I” (B 2.21) or at any time in the TV Buffyverse.

    And, it should be noted that even Scott Allie says The Origin is canon.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______

    Edit #2

    Bullet Points and Analysis of The Origin

    The Origin 3 of 3

    * Regarding the timeline, when is this dance? This isn’t Winter Formal or the Prom.


    * Pike ‘crashes’ the dance and asked Buffy to dance moments after she’s dumped by Jeffrey.


    * Buffy says the vampires would need to be invited into the high school gym.


    * It must be noted that Andy even though he did grab Buffy’s breast a day or so earlier doesn’t want her to risk her life in order to save the others and he fully gets into vampire-killing mode when the vampires attack. And he ends up dying – maybe – after killing a bunch of vampires.


    * I consider Buffy kisses Pike to get him to do what she wants him to do, which is try to save the students. In addition, she’s emotionally vulnerable after being dumped by Jeffrey minutes before and after Jeffrey and one of her former best friends tells her to go sacrifice herself in order to save the other students.


    * Apparently, Buffy’s former best friend who isn’t now going out with Jeffrey saves the Principal’s life by staking the vampire trying to kill him.


    * Well, we see Buffy’s power largely stems from people being willing to risk themselves for her and/or deciding to be heroic for her. Pike and Andy are there killing vampires mostly because Pike and Andy like Buffy and are loyal to Buffy. Buffy’s former best friend is helping save the people largely because of Buffy.


    * Lothos says he’s killed DOZENS of Slayers and there’s no reason to think he’s lying.


    * Lothos tries using his hypno-beams on Buffy and it seems to work. Then Lothos goes into his “vampire face” and the beams stop working on her. Lothos says none have resisted his hypno-beams before.

    Obviously, Buffy’s ability to not have hyno-beams affect her is a huge part of her strength.

    Obviously, it seems the Master’s hypno-beams are more powerful than Lothos’s. And Dracula’s hypno-beams are more powerful than the Master’s.


    * Maybe Buffy’s cross that she uses against Lothos is special. When it touches Lothos’s hand, the hand catches fire. She then uses some kind of spray on Lothos – probably blessed water – and then stakes Lothos.


    * In “Graduation Day Part I” (B 3.21), Buffy says she’s been slaying “kind of professionally, four years running.” http://buffyworld.com/buffy/transcripts/055_tran.html Buffy tells this Lothos and such stuff to Giles, Willow, and Xander over a year after it happened. Buffy is still perhaps somewhat into Pike. 4 years before Graduation Day would mean Buffy was called when she was still 14 and it was likely early in her Freshman year of high school.
    Last edited by MikeB; 19-03-14 at 06:19 AM. Reason: responded to vampmogs post; posted the stuff for The Origin 3 of 3

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    Buffy was trying to give Dawn some confidence.
    Oh c'mon. So Buffy just happened to "try and give Dawn some confidence" by telling her she missed the heart which just so happens to be the same way Angel remembered her first Slaying even when, according to you, Angel's flashbacks were inaccurate? That's awfully coincidental isn't it? This is far fetched, even for you MikeB.

    Why not just go with the simpler and more obvious explanation which is that the flashbacks were accurate, Buffy was telling the truth, and that Whedon was clearly making reference to Becoming?

    Millions watched “Becoming Part I” (B 2.21). Thousands read The Origin . Merrick’s name isn’t even mentioned in “Becoming Part I” (B 2.21) or at any time in the TV Buffyverse.
    Um, your point being?

    And, it should be noted that even Scott Allie says The Origin is canon.
    Ha! Is it not you who repeats in every thread that "Scott Allie is not the arbiter of canon" so why would this persuade anyone at all? Good luck finding anyone to agree with you that The Origin comic is more canon than the actual TV show.
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    * The point about Scott Allie saying that The Origin is canon is that clearly it seems Joss Whedon made a point to him that The Origin is canon. Scott Allie doesn't even list Long Night's Journey as being canon even though Joss Whedon wrote that.


    * Frankly, I don't know why you have such a problem with the notion that the scenes in The Origin are canon and that what we saw in "Becoming Part II" (B 2.22) are Angel's memories.

    Buffy does end up killing Lothos. She does save Hemery High School. And she did all this after apparently at-most a few days of training.

    Really, it doesn't matter much if her first slays were in that graveyard or if they were when she was pretending to be a helpless girl. I consider the scenes in The Origin make a lot more sense given what Merrick eventually does in order to save Buffy and given how Buffy is during the rest of The Origin .

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    We have an on-screen depiction in an episode written and directed by Joss Whedon, and a confirming dialogue in an episode written and directed by Joss Whedon. The arbiter of canon actually personally created some, but you are throwing it aside for his third hand acknowledgement of a second hand adaptation of a then decade old screenplay. In support of that decision, you have nothing other than your own personal preference; that is the very soul of fanon. There is simply no credible way to dispute that Buffy missed the heart the first time out -- in all areas of conflict, Show is Right, "Origin" is Wrong. All areas.

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    Mike, Joss said that the Origin is "pretty much" canon and that there is some stuff that he "has issues with". He never said that every last panel and line of dialogue is 100% canon, including the stuff that contradicts what he himself wrote.

    Joss wrote and directed Buffy's first attempted Slaying in Becoming Part I. Nothing in the episode indicates that it's Angel's "version" of events, every indication in the episode itself indicates that it's a flashback to events as they played out. Nobody who saw the episode would just assume that the flashbacks were Angel's falsified version of events.

    Joss was later asked if the Origin could be accepted as canonical, and he said that it could, although he had "issues with it." I assume those issues were areas that conflicted with his own writing such as Buffy's first slaying. When the comic and the TV show conflict, the TV show wins every time. Joss write and directed the episode where Buffy missed the heart. Joss had no hand at all in writing the Origin. He gave it a "more or less" canonical nod after the fact, but aside from his script that it was adapted from, he had no part whatsoever in writing it.

    Years later, he referenced Buffy missing the heart in Lessons. Mike you're kidding yourself if you think that Buffy was lying in order to give Dawn some confidence. Do you really think that Buffy would lie about something and it just so happens to match Angel's falsified memory of events? Don't you think the simpler explanation would be that the events of Becoming and Lessons are true and canonical, and that the writers of the Origin simply got it wrong? Don't you think that's a simpler explanation than saying that both Buffy and Angel lied about her first slaying and both of their lies happened to match?

    Not to mention the fact that Angel has a photographic memory, and it's doubtful that he'd remember events to be so wildly different to what actually happened.

    Lessons would be the perfect opportunity for Joss to retcon Buffy's first slaying if he decided that he liked the Origin's version better than his own. The characters all had their early years tweaked slightly via the inclusion of Dawn, so this would be a perfect opportunity for Joss to revise his earlier work, but he didn't. He made a clear reference to the flashback in an earlier episode. You are kidding yourself if you think that Joss wasn't referencing his own flashback that he himself wrote.

    So, to revise... Nothing in the episode suggested that the flashback was Angel's "version" of events. Everything in the episode and everything after the episode indicates that the flashback was exactly what happened. Angel has near photographic memory, it's unlikely that he'd remember events so wrongly even if they were merely his version of events. Joss says he "has issues" with the Origin. Buffy later references the fact that she missed the heart.

    Mike, you yourself are always citing Joss as the only arbiter of canon. Why do you think he's wrong about details of his own story here? Why do you trust a story not written by Joss above a story that was?

    I think it's just an excuse to rag on Angel and say that he's a liar with a bad memory. I think you don't like the idea that Buffy would struggle with slaying, even though it's her first attempt. Basically, as KoC says, this boils down to your own personal preference. Objectively, you should accept Joss Whedon's version of events as shown on TV. You especially are always disregarding other writers opinions on the grounds that they aren't Joss himself and that therefore their "opinions" don't count and they have no authority over their own writing. Here, you are disregarding Joss Whedon in favour of a version of events you prefer more, presumably because it discredits a character that you don't like.

    Who is the arbiter of canon here Mike? Joss Whedon? Scott Allie? Christopher Golden? You?

    I just remembered that at the end of the story, it's revealed that Buffy is telling the Origin to Willow and Xander in the library. So perhaps any inconsistencies can be chalked up to Buffy getting the details wrong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    * The point about Scott Allie saying that The Origin is canon is that clearly it seems Joss Whedon made a point to him that The Origin is canon.
    Or he just read the same interview as the rest of us where Joss said it was "pretty much canon" but that he "had some issues with it."

    Frankly, I don't know why you have such a problem with the notion that the scenes in The Origin are canon and that what we saw in "Becoming Part II" (B 2.22) are Angel's memories.
    Because it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous to suggest that a comic written by 3 writers who didn't even work on the show is more canon than scenes written by Joss Whedon himself. It's ridiculous to suggest that a comic is more canonical than the actual TV series its based on. It's ridiculous to suggest that Buffy was just lying to Dawn when Joss was clearly making a reference to Becoming in, again, a script he wrote and directed himself. It's ridiculous to suggest that both Angel and Buffy made up her first Slaying and their lies just so happened to match up exactly. It's ridiculous to ignore TWO episodes which clearly state Buffy missed the heart in favour for a comic Joss Whedon had no involvement with.

    And it's ridiculous to decide that the flashbacks in Becoming were Angel's memories and therefore inaccurate when the whole point of the flashbacks were to fill in the audience about important details -- which becomes pointless if we're not meant to accept those flashbacks as accurate and fact. Your theories almost never take into account basic writing 101. What is even the point of showing us flashbacks if we're meant to believe that they're made-up and didn't really happen!? There's no logic in that whatsoever.

    Joss Whedon is the creator of the verse and the arbiter of canon. Joss Whedon wrote and directed TWO scripts which clearly state/show that Buffy missed the heart. Therefore Origin’s version of events is inaccurate and not canon.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 21-03-14 at 03:29 AM.
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    http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...l=1#post691233 This post already covered my response to most of the stuff said afterward.

    The only ‘contradicting’ thing of any actual importance is Buffy’s first slaying job. And it doesn’t matter too much if what in The Origin is what actually happened or if what in “Becoming Part II” (B 2.21) is what actually happened. No matter the situation, Angel seemed to purposefully delude himself that Buffy would need his help. And it seems Buffy was the Slayer for over 1 year before Angel even introduces himself to her. She had already killed Lothos.

    Regarding Buffy, she still killed multiple vampires, still rallied the students, still is the only reason Pike and Andy were killing vampires, etc.

    And her relationship with Merrick and that he killed himself for her is her default on how the Slayer-Watcher relationship should be.



    Vampire in Rug

    * Frankly, I hadn’t read The Origin since probably years before I even started posting on Boards in 2005. The flashbacks in “Becoming Part II” (B 2.22) I had reasoned were there to show not only Angel’s past, but to also show Buffy’s and Drusilla’s. But then I read The Origin in order to see how that would affect my bullet points and analysis for the BtVS re-watch – I’m going to read everything said and make threads about controversial and debatable things that either haven’t been discussed in years or haven’t been much discussed. For now, I’m going to focus on the comics threads and finishing the Khan Academy stuff (which is going to likely take months) Anyway…

    Then I read Buffy’s first slaying and it simply makes a lot more sense than the one shown in “Becoming Part I” (B 2.21). Buffy went from that ‘clumsy’ and scared girl to a day or so later suddenly putting herself as bait and easily killing multiple vampires? And Merrick’s considering Buffy special makes a lot more sense if the scene in The Origin is what actually happened.

    Then I thought a bit about the flashbacks in “Becoming Part I” (B 2.21). And about Angel’s sense of self-importance. “God is watching you.” of course has Angel referring to himself as God. His seeing Buffy and Whistler pretty much saying that Buffy is helpless and needs Angel’s help results in Angel deciding to help her. Over a year later. And Angel is surprised that Buffy stops The Harvest even though she easily killed Lothos and saved the entire city of Los Angeles (which for all we know Angel doesn’t even know about).


    * The simplest reason why Joss Whedon in “Lessons” (B 7.01) wouldn’t have Buffy describing the events of The Origin is because Buffy is training Dawn and wants Dawn to have confidence in herself. Plus, only thousands had read The Origin and probably most of those don’t even remember Buffy’s first slayings in that. Joss would have had to spend some time talking to Dawn about Merrick, her first slaying and such, and it would have only accomplished Dawn being less confident in herself.


    * All vampires apparently have photographic memories. What we saw were flashbacks of how and why Angel became the person he became.


    * Frankly, your mentioning the monks simply gives another reason why Buffy’s memories could have been changed.

    I think it's just an excuse to rag on Angel and say that he's a liar with a bad memory.
    It’s in the Rules on this forum that we aren’t supposed to accuse posters of having certain biases. I try my best to stick to this rule. But I’ve noticed some posters on this Board increasingly opting to try to ‘shame’ posters into ‘silence’ or ‘appeasement’ or whatever. And this seems to largely revolve around Angel, Buffy/Angel, Xander, and Buffy/Xander.

    Anyway, it’s canon that Angel is a liar. Joss Whedon could have easily gave bullet points on what is and isn’t canon in The Origin . The Origin is based on Joss Whedon’s script for the movie and mostly what was changed is having Merrick look like the actor from the TV flashbacks, decreasing Buffy’s age, and that’s about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    Anyway, it’s canon that Angel is a liar.
    Why do you keep saying this? It's canon that Angel has lied before, if that's enough to define him as "a liar" then the same applies to Buffy, Willow, Xander, Spike, Giles, Wesley, Cordelia, Gunn, Dawn, Connor etc. I can literally think of examples for each and every character where they've been guilty of lying in various degrees and yet you never say this about them.

    Not to mention that it MAKES NO SENSE what you're even saying here. Angel didn't "lie" or even tell the truth in Becoming because Angel wasn't telling a story. He's not talking to any other character or even breaking the fourth wall and talking directly to the audience. The flashbacks aren't Angel's memories, or Angel telling anybody a story, they're flashbacks that are ABOUT him not told by him.

    Joss Whedon could have easily gave bullet points on what is and isn’t canon in The Origin .
    As if Joss Whedon cares enough to make bullet point lists on canon But even so, I assume Whedon has enough faith in his audience's common sense to trust that scenes he wrote in the TV show are in fact canon. He doesn't need to say that they are because it goes without saying.

    * The simplest reason why Joss Whedon in “Lessons” (B 7.01) wouldn’t have Buffy describing the events of The Origin is because Buffy is training Dawn and wants Dawn to have confidence in herself.
    No, the simplest reason would be that Joss Whedon doesn't give a rats ass about The Origin and instead was referencing a past episode of the show he WROTE AND DIRECTED. You're the one doing a bunch of mental gymnastics to try and make sense of that scene, deciding that both Angel and Buffy are liars when it's never stated so in the script, coming up with your own fanon to justify a scene from the comics you happen to prefer, and then expecting people to accept your authority on the subject rather than the actual creator of the show.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 21-03-14 at 01:29 PM.
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    Mike, If Joss Whedon walked into your living room *right now*, and you asked him which version of events was more canonical, which do you think he'd choose? The episode he wrote and directed himself, or the comic book that he generously gave a thumbs up to? This is a serious question, I want you to imagine that you're having a private conversation with Joss Whedon himself, and what you think his opinion might be on this issue.

    Of the two differing versions of Buffy's first slaying, which version do you think Joss himself considers to be canonical? Which of the two do you think he even remembers?

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    vampmogs

    * I say Angel is a liar because some posters try to argue that Angel saying something automatically means it’s true – this even happened during the BtVS S8 and A&F stuff. Angel specifically lies about things that otherwise might make him look bad. I don’t remember other characters doing as such as consistently.


    * My assertion is that it’s likely the flashbacks we see in “Becoming Part I” (B 2.21) are either what Angel remembers or are Angel’s perspective on those events.


    * Joss Whedon should make some bullet points about canon. For example, we still don’t know what from the IDW stuff is canon. Anyway, again, “Lessons” (B 7.01) could simply be Buffy’s trying to give Dawn some confidence. The Graveyard Scene in The Origin makes a lot more sense given what Buffy does days after that.


    * Joss does care about The Origin ; otherwise, he would have completely dismissed it. Saying “Joss Whedon doesn't give a rats ass about The Origin” is simply not discussing reality.


    * Um, I never said the Graveyard Scene in The Origin is canon. I said it makes more sense given what comes later in The Origin .



    Vampire in Rug

    * I don’t know what Joss Whedon would say about Buffy’s first staking. The Origin highlights how great a Slayer that Buffy naturally is and how Buffy’s social life was shattered. “Becoming” (B 2.21) focused on pivotal moments in Angel’s history that resulted in the vampire he is in 1998. My argument hinges on the flashbacks being Angel’s memories and/or perspective. If those scenes are actual flashbacks – regardless of if they are Angel’s memories --, then, of course, what is in “Becoming” is what’s canon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    * I say Angel is a liar because some posters try to argue that Angel saying something automatically means it’s true – this even happened during the BtVS S8 and A&F stuff. Angel specifically lies about things that otherwise might make him look bad. I don’t remember other characters doing as such as consistently.


    * My assertion is that it’s likely the flashbacks we see in “Becoming Part I” (B 2.21) are either what Angel remembers or are Angel’s perspective on those events.
    There's nothing unique about those flashbacks to imply that we have an Unreliable Narrator. And, anyway, do we even have Angel as narrator? If anything, an "on-stage" narrator for those flashbacks would most likely be Whistler, and whatever his biases, he has nothing to gain with the (imaginary) audience by falsifying Buffy's first vampire kill to make her look more helpless.

    Of course, I still don't understand why Angel would either, it's just an absurd thing all around.

    By contrast, in "Fool For Love", Spike clearly is the 'narrator' of his flashbacks -- what if I told you that he colored events in them to make himself look better? Despite having no actual evidence?

    * Joss Whedon should make some bullet points about canon. For example, we still don’t know what from the IDW stuff is canon. Anyway, again, “Lessons” (B 7.01) could simply be Buffy’s trying to give Dawn some confidence. The Graveyard Scene in The Origin makes a lot more sense given what Buffy does days after that.
    Who would need these bulletpoints? What we don't know tells us most of what we need to know -- i.e. since he can't be arsed to spell out what is or isn't canon about IDW, that fact alone pretty much confirms that it won't be relevant. There's not going to be a quiz on that material. We aren't going to need to have read it to know what's going on. And what he hasn't said is also enough to tell us that if one of the books he's actually overseeing contradicts IDW content, it's the IDW content that's wrong.

    Just as should be pretty obvious about "The Origin", and yet.

    * Joss does care about The Origin ; otherwise, he would have completely dismissed it. Saying “Joss Whedon doesn't give a rats ass about The Origin” is simply not discussing reality.
    The answer he gave sounded a lot like a professional entertainer not giving a rat's ass about it. Polite indifference with tacit acknowledgement that they didn't brutally change from the screenplay. "The Origin" was never on his creative radar, that was evident in context.

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    Maybe Spike never actually killed any Slayers, and the flashbacks of him doing so are entirely false. Maybe Angelus was never really involved with killing Holtz family. This is the kind of ridiculous shit that becomes possible if we can pick and choose which flashbacks are canon based purely on our personal preference.

    Angel is NOT the only character to have lied, so I don't know why you keep bringing up this "Angel is a liar" thing. ALL the characters are liars by your standards.

    Angel has near photographic memory. It's unlikely that he'd remember this so wrongly.

    There was nothing in the actual episode itself to imply that the flashback was due to an Unreliable Narrator. If a show or movie utilizes the Unreliable Narrator technique, it's important to let the audience know. This episode does not do that.

    Your idea of Buffy lying in order to give Dawn confidence -and that lie lining up with Angel's falsified version of events, falls squarely under the definition of "fanwanking". This type of idea is literally what the word "fanwank" was invented for. You ought to know that.

    If the Origin was important to Joss, he'd have written it or overseen it himself. Or he'd have given it the canon stamp from day one, rather than waiting to be asked by a fan and then graciously acknowledging the book with the qualifier that he "has issues with it."

    The IDW stuff has no bearing on where the story is now. If you enjoy that stuff, read it. If you don't, don't. Joss won't do bullet points because it's simply not important.

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    KingofCretins

    * Given BtVS S8, Whistler was
    Spoiler:
    simply about getting Buffy and Angel together. Buffy needing to kill Angel wouldn’t be something Whistler would want.



    * The flashbacks in “Becoming Part I” (B 2.21) are about Angel. And they are interspersed within the context of uncursed Angel being “worthy” to take the sword out of Acathla and therefore awaken Acathla.

    - Whistler is not omniscient. Angel was there during the Drusilla flashback scene and the Buffy flashback scenes.


    * Given what Buffy does in the rest of The Origin , the flashback Graveyard Scene in that makes more sense than Buffy barely being able to dust her first vampire to days-later being the Vampire Slayer she is.

    Actually, thinking on it just now, it makes Angel worse if the flashback Graveyard Scene in “Becoming Part I” (B 2.21) is what actually happened. It’s over a year later before Angel first appears to Buffy. And he doesn’t much help with her slaying until pretty much BtVS S3.


    * “Fool For Love” (B 5.07) is not the thread topic.


    * That Joss Whedon should make bullet points about what from the comics is canon is self-evident. That he doesn’t speak to the tenuousness of the canon-status of the comics.


    * Joss has spoken of the canon-nature of The Origin after 1998. For the most part – things like how some of the vampires looks aren’t likely canon – the The Origin is what happened.

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