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Thread: Spuffy post-Season 9

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    Default Spuffy post-Season 9

    BUFFY:

    * We still don’t know when or how she found out Spike is alive. But what she does likely know is that he’d been back for years before he showed up in BtVS 8.35. And it seems Spike didn’t come back for her; he only came back to help save the world. Then left again for months after the world was saved.


    * It’s possible they had sex post-8.39 and were even together for a time. But that’s simply speculation.


    * Dawn’s the one who likely kept Spike out of the Xander & Dawn apartment. Buffy likely simply considered a guest.


    * For BtVS S9, we do see Buffy will eventually want to live in nice home, and possibly will want a kid. Buffy doesn’t want to be poor.



    From Buffy’s perspective, Spike in “End of Days” (7.21) didn’t want to talk to her about their future together, died in “Chosen” (7.22) instead of be with her, (if she knows about it) stayed with Angel in Los Angeles rather than be with her; and even after his time with Angel, he stayed away from her for years until he was needed to help save the world. Then left her again. Then in BtVS S9 he didn’t seem to be interested in her sexually, eventually gave her an ultimatum to leave San Francisco with him, then left her for weeks or whatever, and came back to help Dawn, and still doesn’t seem interested in her sexually.

    For her feelings, Buffy wanted to be with Spike in “Chosen” (7.22) and after. Years later, she was still fantasizing about Spike (and Angel) and she either thought Spike was dust in the Hellmouth or back but didn’t contact her. It took years later and extraordinary circumstances for her merely to have sex with someone else (Satsu). Then something like a vastly more powerful version of the “Will Be Done” spell resulted in her having sex with AngelTwilight. But, if anything, that sex didn’t seem as good as sex she’s had with Spike. For example, she needed zero ‘recovery’ time. And when she was in his bedroom with him, she was fantasizing about making out with Spike and fantasizing about having sex with Spike. In 9.01 a slightly drunk Buffy is aggressively flirting with Spike and wanting to have sex with him. So, clearly she would have preferred to have been with Spike since “Chosen”.

    http://typesoflove.org/four-types-of-love-greek-style/ She clearly enjoys the sex. She clearly has an Eros Love for him. I can’t really speak to the other three given in BtVS S8, all she seemed to know is that he was miffed and/or jealous that she had sex with AngelTwilight. And in BtVS S9, it wasn’t until 9.07 before she even knew he still loved her and had remained in San Francisco to be around her. And that conversation happened after she informed him of her being pregnant. Then they were dealing with her being a robot. But we do know that she didn’t accept that he was living on a ‘dingy’ spaceship with huge ‘bugs’. She didn’t accept that he seems to be poor. She doesn’t consider being with him would be a ‘normal’ relationship. So, unlike in BtVS S7, she doesn’t seem to have a truly unconditional (Agape) love for him. Not sure what to say about Phileo and Storge loves. In 9.22, she does have her hand on his chest and does seem to care about him.


    But at least the Buffy side makes some sense.



    SPIKE:

    IDW STUFF:

    * We don’t know what from IDW is canon.


    * The Illyria timeslips in IDW: if Spike knows Buffy went into the future, he knows those timeslips could be irrelevant because Buffy’s going into the future could have changed the future. He may no longer be alive in 200 years. However, he’s immortal and Buffy’s not. And Buffy may want a child in the future.


    * What’s most important if the IDW stuff is canon is Spider and the other Spikettes and Spike’s interactions with Drusilla in the IDW Spike miniseries. Spider would remind of Drusilla. And Spike was making out with Drusilla for minutes and is clearly still attracted to her and clearly still cares about her. It’s likely he still loves her. Also, one could argue he gave her the soul to see if her having a soul would make her ‘good’ and therefore someone he could be with.

    Anyway, he was having sex with Spider and Co., made out with Drusilla, and seems jealous of Dru being with someone else.

    The Beck thing is important only in that she’s an option for Spike.

    IDW showed a Spike that had strong feelings for Fred and had some feelings for Illyria.

    Of course, Dark Horse seems to have no inclination to use Spider or Beck and Illyria may now be dead. But they obviously still use Drusilla.

    And, of course, Drusilla doesn’t seem to mind too much that Spike has a soul and enthusiastically wanted to marry Spike.


    Perhaps most importantly, Willow seemed relatively okay and supportive of the Spike/Dru stuff.


    DARK HORSE STUFF:

    * Spike was in another dimension when the SuperBuffy/AngelTwilight sex was happening. He says Buffy was “controlled” into having sex with Angel. But we see with the “Angel Island” thing that Buffy/Angel is still a sore subject for Spike. And Spike could consider/know that the ‘control’ was like a ‘Will Be Done’ spell thing.


    * Spike doesn’t seem sexually interested in Buffy. And this seems to be a problem since “Seeing Red” (6.19). Why is this? He told her in “Checkpoint” (5.12) that her beauty may be fading and things may no longer be as tight and firm. Remember that he’s used to Drusilla not ever aging. Plus, an older Buffy would begin to start looking like Spike’s mother Anne. And that could creep him out too much. In “Seeing Red” (6.13) just before the AR he tells her, “SPIKE: (laughing) Trust is for old marrieds, Buffy. (Buffy rolling her eyes) Great love is wild ... and passionate and dangerous. It burns and consumes.” http://buffyworld.com/buffy/transcripts/119_tran.html

    Once Spike got his soul back, Buffy was no longer his mortal enemy. Buffy/Spike (outside of his being triggered) was no longer dangerous. And Spike’s passion for Buffy certainly seemed to have waned significantly. For Spike, it was hot that Buffy was the Slayer and his natural enemy. But once that was no longer a novelty, he didn’t seem sexually interested in her anymore. It was to the point that Buffy went out with Robin Wood because it didn’t seem Spike wanted her sexually anymore. Spike had sex with Buffy in BtVS S7 sometime after “Get It Done” (7.15). In “Destiny” (A 5.08), he thinks about Buffy while having sex with Harmony. He doesn’t want Angel being able to be with Buffy. But he doesn’t actually go be with Buffy. And he seems to flirt with at least some people in Los Angeles. It’s possible he was having some other casual sex while in Los Angeles. He seemed to like Fred, but he didn’t pursue her.

    In BtVS S8, he seems focused on saving the world and then was around Buffy to offer information and guidance. It’s possible he had sex with her sometime after 8.39. But in BtVS S9, he shows such disinterest in her that Buffy didn’t even know he still loved her and didn’t seem to think he even wanted her anymore. He then gives Buffy that ultimatum and leaves her.

    He leaves Buffy and goes to the moon. Then he’s bemoaning his not being able to be with her. He clearly could have been with her from 9.01 on. He meets Morgan and he is attracted to her and eventually even makes out with her. But he doesn’t want to be with her (or he doesn’t right now but considers she’ll continue to want to be with him (like Harmony, Beck, and Spider, and possibly Buffy). He then goes to London and eventually begs to have sex with Giles’ great aunts and/or Faith. He’s likely never in his existence had to beg for sex, and it made no sense he’d start now. But anyway, he left Buffy and tried to have sex with these people. His having sex with Harmony could be his using Harmony as a ‘Buffy substitute’, but then once back in San Francisco, he stays away from Buffy and brushes off her appreciation of his helping with Dawn.



    In-verse, Spike’s side of the Buffy/Spike relationship doesn’t make sense. In AtS s5, one can argue that he was concerned about Buffy possibly wanting to be with a human Angel instead of a vampire Spike. In BtVS S9, probably the major thing is that Buffy may want to eventually have a child (but that was later knowledge). But really, wouldn’t Spike have some living relatives? Couldn’t he get sperm from a relative? And then Buffy and he could get a surrogate mother? Buffy possibly wanting a child doesn’t seem that big a hurdle. Money? Spike could have solved that by using the spaceship to take stuff into outer space. He didn’t do that. And wasn’t he getting a salary from Wolfram and Hart?

    What does Spike ultimately want from Buffy? Does he still want Buffy for himself? There are clues he wants their relationship to just include the two of them (and maybe possibly Dawn as well). Does he want her to be immortal?

    We don’t know what Spike wants from Buffy. And Spike doesn’t seem anywhere near as sexually attracted to Buffy as he was in BtVS S5 and BtVS S6. But then he had hours-long sex sessions with his ‘Buffy substitute’.


    There doesn’t seem to be a good in-verse explanation for Spike not being with Buffy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    BUFFY:
    * It’s possible they had sex post-8.39 and were even together for a time. But that’s simply speculation.
    It's also possible that Buffy was having sex with Angel post 8.39 and was together with him for a time, but that's speculation. It's possible that she was having threesomes with Xander and Dawn but that's just speculation.

    Buffy was not sleeping with Spike after 8.39, nor was she dating him. You are suggesting an entire romance plot between two major characters that supposedly happened offscreen between issues.

    * Dawn’s the one who likely kept Spike out of the Xander & Dawn apartment. Buffy likely simply considered a guest.
    Nobody "kept him out", he merely hadn't been invited in. Xander and Dawn weren't especially close to Spike at that point in time, neither of them liked him much and had no reason to go out of their way to invite him over.

    We have no reason the think that Xander and Dawn were even aware that Spike was visiting Buffy on the fire escape. If they knew he was there, perhaps they would have invited him in out of sheer politeness. If Buffy had asked, I think they probably would have invited him in. I suspect that Buffy didn't want to impose herself on them further and therefore simply didn't tell them that Spike had been hanging out on the fire escape.

    For her feelings, Buffy wanted to be with Spike in “Chosen” (7.22) and after.
    She also gave Angel the cookie dough speech. I don't think she really knew what or who she wanted at that point.

    Years later, she was still fantasizing about Spike (and Angel) and she either thought Spike was dust in the Hellmouth or back but didn’t contact her.
    She was also having dreams about kissing Xander. She was also and having sexy fantasies about Daniel Craig and Christian Bale, neither of which she really had much of a chance of interacting with. Fantasies are fantasies. I wouldn't read too much into it.

    [quote]It took years later and extraordinary circumstances for her merely to have sex with someone else (Satsu). Then something like a vastly more powerful version of the “Will Be Done” spell resulted in her having sex with AngelTwilight.[quote]

    Extraordinary circumstances? She was lonely and was experimenting. I don't see what's so extraordinary about that.

    I would attribute her not having sex for a year to her being too busy with running a Slayer army and having zero time for socializing. I don't think she abstained from sex out of some kind of weird loyalty towards Spike who wasn't even there.

    The spacefrak sex was consensual, it was not a "Will Be Done" spell, it was not a rape. Your interpretation of those events are wrong.


    But, if anything, that sex didn’t seem as good as sex she’s had with Spike. For example, she needed zero ‘recovery’ time. And when she was in his bedroom with him, she was fantasizing about making out with Spike and fantasizing about having sex with Spike.
    I don't know why you are so hung up on Spike's bedroom skills versus Angel's bedroom skills. I really don't understand why it's a big issue for you.

    But for what it's worth, I imagine the spacefrak sex was, in terms of sexual pleasure, probably the best sex she's ever had, nay, it was probably the most enjoyable sex it is possible for a human being to experience. The writers devoted an entire issue to showing pages of it, it was clearly meant to be a big deal.

    They were unrestricted by gravity, they were crashing through mountains, flying through space, causing all kinds of chaos around them. Clearly there was a lot of passion.

    They were creating an entirely new universe, I think the sex that could create a new universe must truly be amazing, the kind of sex only gods could have.

    The kind of sex you or I have is driven by our biological desire to reproduce, to create another person. The kind of sex Buffy and Angel had was driven by a universal desire to create a new plane of existence. Where our hormones are urging our desire for sex, Buffy and Angel were being urged by the universe itself.

    The carnage and destruction that resulted from the sex and from the Twilight dimension was horrible. But the sex itself? That sex must have been truly f****ng amazing.

    That's my take on what the sex was probably like.

    As for Buffy needing zero recovery time, perhaps that had something to do with her being completely invincible at the time? Do you think she'd need "recovery time" if she had sex with Spike on his bugship?

    As for her fantasizing about making out with Spike afterwards, I think that was due to the afterglow. Maybe she was ready for round two and Angel just wasn't around. She recently said that she wanted to spend her life with Angel and after her fantasy with Spike she didn't exactly make a move on him did she? People have fantasies about all kinds of things.

    In 9.01 a slightly drunk Buffy is aggressively flirting with Spike and wanting to have sex with him. So, clearly she would have preferred to have been with Spike since “Chosen”.
    A) if memory serves, she was also flirting with Riley.
    B) plenty of people, myself included, have -especially when drunk, flirted with people we have no intention of dating, let alone date for several years. She was drunkenly flirting, don't read too much into it.

    But we do know that she didn’t accept that he was living on a ‘dingy’ spaceship with huge ‘bugs’. She didn’t accept that he seems to be poor. She doesn’t consider being with him would be a ‘normal’ relationship.
    These are the major reasons why Buffy wasn't interested in a relationship with Spike in season 9.


    * We don’t know what from IDW is canon.
    After the Fall and the Spike ongoing series are canon. As to the rest, you can make up your own mind about what you want to accept as your personal canon.

    You shouldn't hold your breath for Joss or Dark Horse to declare some stories from IDW to be canon, while others are not. They simply aren't going to do that because it's not in their interest to do so. They don't want to tell people to buy books from another company and they also don't want to upset the people who enjoyed the IDW books. It's in their best interest to stay vague about what stories from IDW might be canon.

    * The Illyria timeslips in IDW: if Spike knows Buffy went into the future, he knows those timeslips could be irrelevant because Buffy’s going into the future could have changed the future. He may no longer be alive in 200 years. However, he’s immortal and Buffy’s not. And Buffy may want a child in the future.
    The timeslips in AtF were all *possible* futures, some of them contradicted each other. I think the Frayverse itself is only a possible future, and one that is becoming less and less likely with each season that passes. Scott Allie has also openly stated in a Q&A that he has zero intention of exploring the Spike flash-forward in AtF.


    * What’s most important if the IDW stuff is canon is Spider and the other Spikettes and Spike’s interactions with Drusilla in the IDW Spike miniseries. Spider would remind of Drusilla.
    Aside from being a pretty brunette immortal, I don't see how Spider and Drusilla are alike in terms of personality at all.

    And Spike was making out with Drusilla for minutes and is clearly still attracted to her and clearly still cares about her. It’s likely he still loves her. Also, one could argue he gave her the soul to see if her having a soul would make her ‘good’ and therefore someone he could be with.
    Minutes? How on earth do you know how much time passes between panels? Unless explicitly stated, the passage of time is largley up to personal interpretation.

    He gave Drusilla his soul to save Jeremy's life. It had nothing to do with testing Drusilla to see if he could date her. Dru was about to kill Jeremy, giving her the soul stopped her from doing that.

    The Beck thing is important only in that she’s an option for Spike.
    Beck obviously loves Spike, but I don't think Spike thinks about Beck that way although he obviously does care a great deal about her.

    Of course, Dark Horse seems to have no inclination to use Spider or Beck and Illyria may now be dead. But they obviously still use Drusilla.
    I doubt we'll ever see Beck or Spider appear in a Dark Horse book. Illyria certainly is dead. I'm sure we'll see Dru again, but I don't think we'll ever see a Spike and Drusilla pairing again, I think Spike has outgrown her.

    And, of course, Drusilla doesn’t seem to mind too much that Spike has a soul and enthusiastically wanted to marry Spike.
    I'm sure Drusilla would have Spike lose his soul if such a thing was in her power. The marriage thing seemed like a bit of a laugh to her if I remember correctly.


    Perhaps most importantly, Willow seemed relatively okay and supportive of the Spike/Dru stuff.
    I recall Willow exploding the door off a car at the mere mention of Drusilla. I don't think she'd be "okay" with Spike dating Drusilla. Dru killed Kendra amongst other things.


    In “Seeing Red” (6.13) just before the AR he tells her, “SPIKE: (laughing) Trust is for old marrieds, Buffy. (Buffy rolling her eyes) Great love is wild ... and passionate and dangerous. It burns and consumes.”
    Spike has since then got a soul which changed his perspective on many things. In season 9 he told Buffy that he wanted "normal". We got a cover of Buffy and Spike as "old marrieds". I don't think you can compare what a soulless Spike wants moments prior to an attempted rape, to what Spike wants now in season 9. Spike has grown a lot as a person since then.

    It was to the point that Buffy went out with Robin Wood because it didn’t seem Spike wanted her sexually anymore.
    Or maybe she was just open to the idea of maybe being interested in Robin Wood? He's a pretty good catch.

    Spike had sex with Buffy in BtVS S7 sometime after “Get It Done”
    No, that's just you making stuff up. The only time in season 7 where they *may* have had sex was after the "fade to black" and even then it's left to the viewer's imagination. They certainly weren't sleeping together prior to that.

    (7.15). In “Destiny” (A 5.08), he thinks about Buffy while having sex with Harmony.
    I don't remember this at all? How do you know he's thinking about Buffy?

    It’s possible he had sex with her sometime after 8.39.
    No, he didn't.

    He then gives Buffy that ultimatum and leaves her.
    Your reading of the situation is VERY different to what actually happened. Spike left because he could see that Buffy was unsure and that right now she didn't want to have the type of relationship that he wanted.

    He clearly could have been with her from 9.01 on.
    He spilled his heart out to her, she didn't reciprocate because she didn't feel the same way (right then and there), plus she had heaps of other issues on her plate so he left to give her some space. Your idea that Spike could have Buffy at any given moment is not what we actually see in the book.


    He then goes to London and eventually begs to have sex with Giles’ great aunts and/or Faith. He’s likely never in his existence had to beg for sex, and it made no sense he’d start now.
    I don't think any guy has a 100% success ratio when it comes to picking up. I'm sure William got turned down plenty of times by his peers. I'm sure Spike got turned down every now and then at the Bronze or Willie's in Sunnydale or even the LA nightclubs because no guy is 100% perfect. Yes, I think it's a little over the top that Gage wrote Spike pretty much "begging" for sex from Faith and the aunts, but lets not pretend that it's impossible for a girl to just not be interested in sex with Spike.


    In-verse, Spike’s side of the Buffy/Spike relationship doesn’t make sense. In AtS s5, one can argue that he was concerned about Buffy possibly wanting to be with a human Angel instead of a vampire Spike.
    You idea that Spike stuck around LA just to prevent Angel from getting the shanshu prophecy seems pretty petty on Spike's part.

    In BtVS S9, probably the major thing is that Buffy may want to eventually have a child (but that was later knowledge). But really, wouldn’t Spike have some living relatives? Couldn’t he get sperm from a relative? And then Buffy and he could get a surrogate mother?
    What living relatives does Spike have? Why does the sperm have to be related to Spike anyway, why wouldn't any other sperm donar be good enough?


    And wasn’t he getting a salary from Wolfram and Hart?
    No, he wasn't getting a salary. He never actually worked for them.

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    * In BtVS 8.40, Buffy asks Spike, “Why did we ever break up?” It doesn’t really make much sense if she was referring to “As You Were” (B 6.15) or “Chosen” (B 7.22). So, yes, “It’s possible they had sex post-8.39 and were even together for a time. But that’s simply speculation.”

    Nobody "kept him out", [Spike] merely hadn't been invited in.
    That’s an oxymoron.

    Xander and Dawn weren't especially close to Spike at that point in time, neither of them liked him much and had no reason to go out of their way to invite him over.
    Willow and he are the reason Buffy came back in “Get It Done” (B 7.15), he saved the world in “Chosen” (B 7.22), and he saved their lives in BtVS S8. Xander eventually became friendly with him in BtVS S7.


    * Buffy wanted to be with Spike in “Chosen” (7.22) and after. This is almost certain canon. Nothing suggests otherwise.


    * That ‘dream’ of her kissing Xander in BtVS S8 was a nightmare and one that Amy could have given her.


    * My quote: “It took years later and extraordinary circumstances for her merely to have sex with someone else (Satsu). Then something like a vastly more powerful version of the “Will Be Done” spell resulted in her having sex with AngelTwilight.”

    It actually wasn’t like the “Why doesn’t she just marry him?” thing. It was more like the love spell that Xander had Amy do.

    I don't know why you are so hung up on Spike's bedroom skills versus Angel's bedroom skills. I really don't understand why it's a big issue for you.
    Um, “bedroom skills” are important to women and Spike’s “bedroom skills” are why Buffy was missing “that sex.”

    But for what it's worth, I imagine the spacefrak sex was, in terms of sexual pleasure, probably the best sex she's ever had, nay, it was probably the most enjoyable sex it is possible for a human being to experience. The writers devoted an entire issue to showing pages of it, it was clearly meant to be a big deal.

    They were unrestricted by gravity, they were crashing through mountains, flying through space, causing all kinds of chaos around them. Clearly there was a lot of passion.

    They were creating an entirely new universe, I think the sex that could create a new universe must truly be amazing, the kind of sex only gods could have.

    The kind of sex you or I have is driven by our biological desire to reproduce, to create another person. The kind of sex Buffy and Angel had was driven by a universal desire to create a new plane of existence. Where our hormones are urging our desire for sex, Buffy and Angel were being urged by the universe itself.

    The carnage and destruction that resulted from the sex and from the Twilight dimension was horrible. But the sex itself? That sex must have been truly f****ng amazing.

    That's my take on what the sex was probably like.

    As for Buffy needing zero recovery time, perhaps that had something to do with her being completely invincible at the time? Do you think she'd need "recovery time" if she had sex with Spike on his bugship?

    As for her fantasizing about making out with Spike afterwards, I think that was due to the afterglow. Maybe she was ready for round two and Angel just wasn't around. She recently said that she wanted to spend her life with Angel and after her fantasy with Spike she didn't exactly make a move on him did she? People have fantasies about all kinds of things.
    Wow, is this BEYOND HYPOCRITICAL. “I really don’t understand why it’s a big issue for you.” Here’s the entirely of what I wrote: “But, if anything, that sex didn’t seem as good as sex she’s had with Spike. For example, she needed zero ‘recovery’ time. And when she was in his bedroom with him, she was fantasizing about making out with Spike and fantasizing about having sex with Spike.” 46 words versus your 317 words.

    And, sorry, it’s canon that that spacefrak wasn’t the best sex she’s ever had. If it were, she’d be daydreaming about that instead of daydreaming about making out with Spike and having sex with Spike. SuperBuffy and AngelTwilight were equally powerful. Buffy was limping in “Wrecked” (B 6.10). Buffy’s legs weren’t working in “Dead Things” (B 6.13). Buffy was easily hopping stairs in “Innocence” (B 2.14).

    Buffy was either still under the ‘love spell’ when she was spewing that “bestest day ever” nonsense to Angel or she was simply trying to ‘let him down easy’ because she wanted him to shoo so that she could go be with Spike. AngelTwilight takes it all as she simply wants to shoo him away so that she can go be with Spike physically (in all forms of that term).


    * Buffy was the least drunk when she was flirting with Spike. Buffy until literally days before Spike leaves her again didn’t even know he was still in love with her.


    * Buffy was interested in a relationship with Spike in BtVS S9. She simply thought he wasn’t interested in a relationship with her.


    * Until Joss Whedon says what from IDW is canon, everything is possibly not canon. All I know from the outline of AtF is that the dragon saves them, Angel had the dragon for a time, Spider is there and Spike is with Spider, Cordy was never supposed to show in AtF, and that everything is reset.

    Supposedly, Joss actually looked at the scripts for the IDW Spike miniseries but if everything is canon in that, that Spike/Dru stuff happened, Wolfram & Hart is now interested in Spike as well as Angel, Beck is canon, Buffy would know about Spike’s being alive through the Twinkle franchise and therefore also likely reason Spike was with Maria Hartley (Spider), Willow knows about Spike’s still having feelings for Dru, etc. That’s a lot of stuff.


    * I assume Joss didn’t actually approve of the Illyira timeslips that were shown in AtF. But so far nothing in canon says those timeslips can’t be true.

    Aside from being a pretty brunette immortal, I don't see how Spider and Drusilla are alike in terms of personality at all.
    They’re alike in why they like Spike, what they do for him, etc. I’m not saying Spider’s as evil or diabolical as Dru.


    * For the IDW Spike miniseries, unless Dru was constantly changing positions on Spike ever few seconds, they were making out for minutes. I said, “one could argue he gave her the soul to see if her having a soul would make her ‘good’ and therefore someone he could be with.” Spike clearly cares about Dru and loves Dru more than he cares about Jeremy and loves Jeremy (he doesn’t love Jeremy).


    * Drusilla’s immortal and Spike still loves her. Most of Spike’s relationship with Buffy involved his trying to kill her and his deciding to stay away from her.

    A problem with Spike – and a major problem with the nonsense of him in A&F begging for sex – is that depending on what is canon, Spike has Drusilla, Harmony, Morgan, Spider, and Beck all completely in love with him and also has Buffy who is also in love with him but possibly still loves Angel as well. Yet Spike decides not to be with any of these people. So, who could Dark Horse – or Joss – come up with who Spike would consider ‘good enough’ for him given he rejected these 6?


    * Drusilla in the IDW Spike miniseries very eagerly and enthusiastically wanted to marry Spike.


    * Drusilla wouldn’t force Spike to lose his soul. We don’t even know how evil she still is. She killed a Slayer out of self-defense. Frankly, unless Joss is involved with it, I’m not even sure the hopefully eventual Juliet Landau miniseries will even be canon.


    * Willow was soon okay with the Spike/Dru stuff and Willow did take Dru back to Mosaic. That is, if any of this stuff is canon. I didn’t say Willow would be okay if Spike actually was in a relationship with Dru again. But Angel’s still alive. The Scoobies consider Acathla to be Angel’s thing. The totality of what Dru’s done doesn’t really compare to the totality of what Angel’s done.


    * Covers aren’t canon: they’re promotional material. Spike in BtVS S9 still wanted Buffy to himself. She still wants all of Buffy. He still doesn’t want her having feelings for anyone else, especially Angel. We see Spike fantasizing about Buffy and he frolicking on a sun-lit beach. But it doesn’t seem Spike wants to be human. Does Spike want a Buffy who’s going to age and eventually look like his mother or does he want an immortal Buffy who’s is going to stay ‘young’ and “very pretty” forever.


    * Buffy went out on a date with Robin Wood because it didn’t seem Spike wanted her sexually anymore.


    * In “Storyteller” (B 7.16), a possessed Robin Wood tells Buffy, “You’re with that vampire, screwing that vampire. You filthy whore.” Buffy never says she wasn’t having sex with Spike.

    Joss said he didn’t want to show Buffy and Spike having sex because he was uncomfortable with the message that would send given the attempted rape. But it’s strongly hinted that they were having sex again after “Get It Done” (B 7.15). I’ll discus this further when the BtVS re-watch is happening.

    My quote: “In “Destiny” (A 5.08), he thinks about Buffy while having sex with Harmony.”

    I don't remember this at all? How do you know he's thinking about Buffy?
    Another scene you need to re-watch. This is canon.


    * Spike left Buffy in BtVS S9 because he’d been having all these ‘big moment’ relationship stuff with a Buffy that wasn’t even full Buffy, because she seemed to want to ‘live in the suburbs’, she seems to eventually want to have kids, etc. Spike wants all of her, she still possibly has some feelings for Angel, and she still has Dawn and Xander.


    * My quote: “He clearly could have been with her from 9.01 on.”

    This is true. A problem with Spike is we still don’t even know what he ultimately wants from her. With Dru, he pretty much had a 98-year honeymoon. In BtVS S6, I reason he ultimately wanted to sire her and that perhaps he would have fought those Trials to get her soul back in her. In BtVS S7, I reason he ultimately wanted them to be in Heaven together. Post-BtVS S7 he mostly stays away from her because the reality of her is a constant disappointment to her effluent self in “Chosen” (B 7.22). So, for BtVS S9: what did he ultimately want? Apparently, Buffy possibly since finding out he’s alive considered/reasoned he no longer was in love with her. Certainly, in BtVS S9, she assumed he wasn’t. Spike talks to her about not wanting to be her ‘dark place’ and not wanting to have her only come to him when things aren’t working out in her life (which clearly wasn’t true in BtVS S7). He says he doesn’t want to have only part of her. He decides to have none of her by leaving for months or years at a time. Does Spike want to live in a house with Buffy and raise a child with her? Who knows? Spike clearly hasn’t researched a way in which he could have a child with her. He’s done things like get the Judge together, get the Gem of Amarra, get his soul back, but ultimately he hasn’t actually worked on his relationship with Buffy since “Chosen” (B 7.22).


    * Getting turned down and needing to beg for sex are completely different things. Spike in the miniseries wanted to be with Buffy again so his merely flirting wouldn’t make sense. But, at-most, he would flirt with Faith and the great aunts.

    You idea that Spike stuck around LA just to prevent Angel from getting the shanshu prophecy seems pretty petty on Spike's part.
    It’s what happens. Remember that Spike wants Buffy to consider Angel lame, unattractive, and stupid. Or at least he wants her to have no feelings for Angel. A human Angel would be an Angel who Buffy could do more than ‘no-tongues’ kissing. And it’s an Angel who Buffy could be with. It’s not even as if Spike assumes Buffy would dump him for a human Angel, it’s simply that Spike knows that – at this time – Buffy ultimately wants to be with both of them.

    What living relatives does Spike have?
    Spike only dusted his mother. My new personal canon is that Spike’s a member of the Marquess of Camden family.

    [qutoe] Why does the sperm have to be related to Spike anyway, why wouldn't any other sperm donar be good enough? [/quote] For obvious reasons.


    * Angel was offering Spike resources so that Spike could be a ‘James Bond’-type character. It does seem Angel eventually put Spike on salary.

    As-is, the idea that Spike has no money isn’t even based in reality given he got those clothes in BtVS S7 from somewhere. Are we really supposed to believe that all that jewelry Spike got Drusilla, all the various treasures he’s found over the years, etc. are just gone?

    Angel somehow had money so Spike could easily have money as well.

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