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Thread: 8x23 Sacrifice

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    As you know I'm very wary of how human Castiel will be handled and do not expect it in itself to be a miracle cure for the issues I've been having with this show. However we do know from interviews that the writers have complained that due to how powerful Castiel was they often had to make him incapacitated or in conflict with the brothers to prevent things from being 'too easy'. With that no longer (for now) an issue perhaps the writers will finally allow more friendship scenes between Castiel and the brothers and true development of the character rather than the current take a step, one step back approach
    I hope so. As long as they take the character and his learning to be human seriously and don't make fun of him or play him for laughs. That got very old already.

    I re-watched the episode this morning and I think in the wider context of the episode the writers purposely chose that timing. They of course wanted a conversation between Castiel and Dean and for me having Dean respond to the trials news with a "Oh you're closing the gates? Good for you. Bye now off you go... have a good life" would have been equally out of character... And so they made that need work within the context of Sam and Dean in that episode. They needed Dean to go off with Castiel so that he could be there for the revelation from Naomi of what was going to happen with Sam, they needed him to go off with Castiel so that we the audience could then see his utter panic at the prospect of Sam dying, the way he immediately drops everything else the heaven trials, angels being cast out of heaven be damned he wanted his little brother first and foremost.

    So ultimately when the writers wrote that I think on the one hand yes they wanted to fit in a Dean and Castiel conversation, but I don't think their reasoning for choosing that moment was about Dean picking Castiel over Sam. Rather they were using the Dean and Cas talk they needed anyway as a way of separating the two so that the end scene between the two could take place.
    I don't really have a problem with that scene, even though I understand why some may have felt that it was totally not cool for Dean to ditch Sam (in his precarious conditions, and with the King of Hell no less) to have a pint with Cas. If Cas's plight had been more urgent, people wouldn't complain.

    Also, I resent the idea that Dean/Cas scenes (as rare as they are) may be instrumental/used as plot device to Sam/Dean and any development between them. I want the Dean/Cas scene to be about Dean/Cas, as much as the Sam/Dean scenes are about Sam/Dean. Not sure if what I'm saying makes any sense to anyone beyond me!

    I loved this scene it was nice to see the two actually get a moment to just chill and talk It was so sad to see Dean so dejected about Castiel presumably leaving him and I think it was something he resigned to as sadly as he pointed out in the previous episode Castiel always seems to leave him for what he assumes is the greater good
    Yes, very sad. I saw that some people on other sites were a bit upset because they thought this scene showed that Dean didn't care that Castiel may leave forever. I didn't have that impression at all... Dean is clearly not happy with the idea, but he can't do anything about it. He's resigned, because, as you say, Cas is always leaving anyway, it's what he does ( *side eyes the writers very badly), and he's certainly not going to beg or open up to Cas again any time soon, given what happened the last time he did. Dean is rightly on the defensive right now, wary of letting himself be vulnerable. Also, Dean understands that family comes first, and that he can't keep Cas from going back to his home.

    Of course, now Cas has fallen and Dean is kinda stuck with him! Ha! But I feel that this won't help ease Dean's abandonement issues or lack of self-worth, given that Cas didn't choose to stay, but was merely forced to. That's why I'm not happy with Cas's grace being stolen from him against his will.


    I didn't enjoy it at all! It just felt like it was a queer baiting moment for the Destiel fans. I mean these writers know what their fan base is like and how you'd have the more optimistic ones falling for the bait and as you know I hate queer baiting moments
    But it was nice that a same-sex couple was portrayed in such a positive, non-stereotipical way. Two manly, plaid-wearing, hunting-loving dudes, the kind of dudes Dean has been living among his whole life. Dean's reaction was interesting, like a sudden realization that not everything is what it seems. Dean is growing in his personality more and more this season, so things like these might help him broaden his mentality even more.

    Cas of course is totally indifferent to sexual orientation, so he didn't even bat an eyelid. His only concern was cutting off the Cupid's hand (sigh). LOL

    And yes, the fact that they always do these things in relation to Dean and Cas is very much queerbaiting... unless they do the unthinkable!!!! (yeah, yeah, I know.. not gonna happen! ). They should stop, if they don't want to string the shippers along.

    Misha at the Asylum con said that he will be very disappointed if Cas doesn't get some horizontal action next season.. prepare for a bunch of random women to keep him occupied! Maybe he'll even make those babies Metraton wanted him to make...


    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    I know how that feels, only in my case that happened with Dean. I feel that by having Dean go back on his forgiveness for Sam's failures back in S4 and blame Sam for his soullessness in S6 the writers came as close to assassinating Dean's character for me as they will probably ever get. I really struggle hard with that part of Dean's characterisation this season and I, too, needed to take a step back and blame it on the writers instead of the character. Because I adore Dean and refuse to let the writers take that away from me. I don't have those problems with Sam, because I can take the little insight we do get in the first half of the season and find a way to rationalise Sam not looking for Dean, but overall I will never forgive the writers the way they treated both brothers in this season.


    See, I know that you disagree, but this is exactly why I prefer Gamble by far over Carver. Where the brothers are concerned, Gamble moved away from interpersonal conflict - even the Amy conflict in S7 was barely a blip on the radar - and instead started to focus on what their life had done to Sam and Dean as individuals. Look how mature and secure Sam and Dean are in their relationship at the end of S7 - and then see the mess Carver made of it. Man, I resent that so much.
    I agree that on the Sam and Dean front Gamble did a decent job, and I get why you like her seasons. But since I'm not brothers-focused, at this point making the show ALL about them (stripping them of every possible support system, from the recurring characters - Cas, Bobby - the Impala, everything) is the best way to lose me, because since I already struggled to keep up my interest already in season 2/3 (it was clearly not the right show for me, or at least not the kind of show that could inspire great passion in me... it took the angel mythology to do that for me), things weren't magically going to change when they tried to go back to the roots. I totally lost interest in season 7. And yes, I was also angry/upset about Cas (not that Carver handled him much better, contrary to my hopes and expectations).

    However, the Gamble seasons had their structural issues too, so my problems with them go beyond the Castiel stuff. But yes, Sam and Dean were better off after Gamble's tenure than they are now.

    I know. And for someone like me, who was never invested in Castiel in the first place, the writers treatment of the character basically ensured that I never will. If they had taken the time to organically move Dean and Castiel past their conflict by allowing them to confront their issues and re-bond, I am sure I would have taken those steps with Dean. But by simply claiming Dean and Castiel's conflict out of existence, they hollowed out their whole relationship.
    Not for me, but only because I was invested before, and I hold onto that and I do the rationalization thing you do with the Sam and Dean related issues.
    The fact is, if the writers did their job well we shouldn't be here trying to fill the gaps and make sense of stuff. Sigh.

    Rationally I know that it is all on the writers, but the problem is that I have had these kinds of problems with Castiel from late S4 onward, when the writers refused to have Cas acknowledge that he let Sam out of the panic room. So his relationship with the brothers always felt like it is based on a lie of omission to me, and that is why I could never connect to the character.
    Yeah, I know that you (and Cori's) issues with Cas stems from that. However, I have never had problems with that and I have never held it against Cas because at that point he simply had no choice but to follow orders. He had just been dragged to heaven (and that probably scared the shit out of him) after he had tried to help the Winchesters, to make him fall back in line... God knows what they did to him there to get him to behave. So the order was for him to let Sam out, because Zachariah and Michael wanted Sam to start the apocalypse. Even if Cas had refused, they would have probably killed him (or dragged him back to heaven to be reprogrammed or whatever) and sent another angel to do the job. It's not like Michael and Zachariah were going to put their apocalyptic plans on hold because a little rebellious angel refused to open a door.

    So I really don't know what Castiel could have done in this circumstance. So he never confessed to the brothers that he opened the door of the panic room.. so what? A couple of episodes later he came through for the Winchesters, he rebelled and died in the process, so I think that cancels a lie of omission on a matter in which he had absolutely no choice. I firmly believe Sam and Dean wouldn't have held it against him either.

    It was not a betrayal against the Winchesters (he didn't owe them absolutely anything at that point), it was doing his duty and following orders; anything else would have likely put his own life in jeopardy.

    So I really couldn't disagree more with you, and I think you judge him very unfairly, but since we all have our different ways of seeing things, I'm going to agree to disagree and since neither of us are going to change our stance after 5 years, I'm sure you'll agree!

    As I said above, with Dean it works to get past my problems by blaming it on the writers, because I always had a deep and abiding love for the character anway and the seven years of Dean characterisation prior to S8 just reduce parts of Dean's characterisation in S8 to absurdity (just like with Sam), but Castiel doesn't have that advantage. I don't like hating on characters, and I curse the writers for doing this to me.
    I curse the writers too!

    Heh, I know how that feels; I am the same with Sam. Anyway, human Castiel makes me extremely apprehensive. It has the potential to completely ruin the show for me, and knowing these writers, it probably will.
    Well, let's hope not!
    Last edited by Francy; 19-05-13 at 01:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    Yeah, I know that you (and Cori's) issues with Cas stems from that. However, I have never had problems with that and I have never held it against Cas because at that point he simply had no choice but to follow orders. He had just been dragged to heaven (and that probably scared the shit out of him) after he had tried to help the Winchesters, to make him fall back in line... God knows what they did to him there to get him to behave. So the order was for him to let Sam out, because Zachariah and Michael wanted Sam to start the apocalypse. Even if Cas had refused, they would have probably killed him (or dragged him back to heaven to be reprogrammed or whatever) and sent another angel to do the job. It's not like Michael and Zachariah were going to put their apocalyptic plans on hold because a little rebellious angel refused to open a door.

    So I really don't know what Castiel could have done in this circumstance. So he never confessed to the brothers that he opened the door of the panic room.. so what? A couple of episodes later he came through for the Winchesters, he rebelled and died in the process, so I think that cancels a lie of omission on a matter in which he had absolutely no choice. I firmly believe Sam and Dean wouldn't have held it against him either.

    It was not a betrayal against the Winchesters (he didn't owe them absolutely anything at that point), it was doing his duty and following orders; anything else would have likely put his own life in jeopardy.

    So I really couldn't disagree more with you, and I think you judge him very unfairly, but since we all have our different ways of seeing things, I'm going to agree to disagree and since neither of us are going to change our stance after 5 years, I'm sure you'll agree!
    Here is the thing: When Dean came back from hell and confessed that he got off the rack in order to escape his own pain nobody in his right mind would have blamed Dean for breaking, right? And yet Dean still felt guilty and owned up to what he did, unconsolable about his part in bringing on the apocalypse. Or when Sam's soul was restored to his body he still felt responsible for everything he had done whilst being soulless even though he had been a victim. See, I don't blame Castiel for being brainwashed and executing his superiors' orders any more than I blame Dean for breaking in hell or Sam for being soulless, but unlike Sam and Dean, Castiel never owned up to what he did, we never saw him suffer from guilt for his own part in the apocalypse or take responsibility for it. On the contrary, he had the audacity to lay blame squarely at the brothers' feet instead, and THAT is why I never had respect for him. Castiel was either too cowardly to tell the brothers or he he didn't feel it was his fault, and neither makes him sympathetic for me. And it is not for Castiel do decide if his later actions redeem him for his 'betrayal' in Sam and Dean's eyes, that was for the brothers to decide, because they were the wronged party, but he never gave them the chance. So, no, I don't think I judge Castiel unfairly.
    Last edited by galathea; 19-05-13 at 02:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    Here is the thing: When Dean came back from hell and confessed that he got off the rack in order to escape his own pain nobody in his right mind would have blamed Dean for breaking, right? And yet Dean still felt guilty and owned up to what he did, unconsolable about his part in bringing on the apocalypse. Or when Sam's soul was restored to his body he still felt responsible for everything he had done whilst being soulless even though he had been a victim. See, I don't blame Castiel for being brainwashed and executing his superiors' orders any more than I blame Dean for breaking in hell or Sam for being soulless, but unlike Sam and Dean, Castiel never owned up to what he did, we never saw him suffer from guilt for his own part in the apocalypse or take responsibility for it. On the contrary, he had the audacity to lay blame squarely at the brothers' feet instead, and THAT is why I never had respect for him. Castiel was either too cowardly to tell the brothers or he he didn't feel it was his fault, and neither makes him sympathetic for me. And it is not for Castiel do decide if his later actions redeem him for his 'betrayal' in Sam and Dean's eyes, that was for the brothers to decide, because they were the wronged party, but he never gave them the chance. So, no, I don't think I judge Castiel unfairly.
    But Castiel is a 400 million year old powerful Angel of the Lord whose loyalty should go to heaven, and heaven's orders, not to Dean and Sam Winchester. He had no reason or obligation whatsoever to help the Winchesters, or humanity in general (given that the angels in this universe are dicks), so objectively (well, from the point of view of angels) he was doing nothing wrong, just following his orders and doing his duty.

    The fact that he gradually started to see things from the point of view of the Winchesters and decided to help them just shows that he, as an angel, unlike many of his siblings had decency in him, and you don't seem to want to give him ANY credit for that, insisting only to see the things he did wrong in your eyes.

    Also, he is an angel and not a human, therefore it's unfair to expect him to conduct himself on human standards, especially at the beginning of his association with the Winchesters. Angels in general seem to regard humans as apes that are beneath them; Castiel is the exception, in that he has always admired humanity, but he is still an angel and angels have a certain arrogance.

    Anyway, if you talk to me about Castiel's wrongdoings in season 6 and beyond I agree with the criticism against him. The panic room door for me is a non issue and we are never going to agree, so I guess we should stop the off-topicness of this discussion!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    But Castiel is a 400 million year old powerful Angel of the Lord whose loyalty should go to heaven, and heaven's orders, not to Dean and Sam Winchester. He had no reason or obligation whatsoever to help the Winchesters, or humanity in general (given that the angels in this universe are dicks), so objectively (well, from the point of view of angels) he was doing nothing wrong, just following his orders and doing his duty.
    Well, in On The Head of a Pin Castiel learned the hard way that his fellow angels no longer deserve his loyalty because they had turned away from God, and in my opinion that was the point where he decided to switch sides. Even Castiel''s superiors realised that Castiel's loyalties had changed and hence forced him back to heaven to re-indoctrinate him. So, really, your argument no longer holds true for the timeframe we are talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    The fact that he gradually started to see things from the point of view of the Winchesters and decided to help them just shows that he, as an angel, unlike many of his siblings had decency in him, and you don't seem to want to give him ANY credit for that, insisting only to see the things he did wrong in your eyes.
    No, I do give him credit for that. I actually really, really liked Castiel for most of S4 and thought the writers did a great job at illustrating the dichotomy in the heavenly host through the contrast between Uriel and Castiel. It was only in S5, when Castiel refused to take responsibility for his part in the apocalypse and turned around to blame Dean for his own choices that I lost my appreciation for the character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    Also, he is an angel and not a human, therefore it's unfair to expect him to conduct himself on human standards, especially at the beginning of his association with the Winchesters. Angels in general seem to regard humans as apes that are beneath them; Castiel is the exception, in that he has always admired humanity, but he is still an angel and angels have a certain arrogance.
    Yes, but all this refers to S4 and I am talking about S5. The moment Castiel turned to the Winchesters, because he felt that theirs is the rightful cause, he was inevitably measured by the same standards as Sam and Dean, and I find Castiel lacking in comparison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    Well, in On The Head of a Pin Castiel learned the hard way that his fellow angels no longer deserve his loyalty because they had turned away from God, and in my opinion that was the point where he decided to switch sides. Even Castiel''s superiors realised that Castiel's loyalties had changed and hence forced him back to heaven to re-indoctrinate him. So, really, your argument no longer holds true for the timeframe we are talking about.
    He was disappointed and lost faith in heaven and his fellow angels, but he wasn't ready to full-blown turn against them, especially after the Heaven-berating he received. He was having doubts and realizing stuff, but it was only in Lucifer Rising that he made his definite choice, the choice he wasn't going to come back from. So my argument very much holds true!

    No, I do give him credit for that. I actually really, really liked Castiel for most of S4 and thought the writers did a great job at illustrating the dichotomy in the heavenly host through the contrast between Uriel and Castiel. It was only in S5, when Castiel refused to take responsibility for his part in the apocalypse and turned around to blame Dean for his own choices that I lost my appreciation for the character.
    I don't compliment Cas for his behaviour there, of course. But what he did at the end of season 4 was huge, and it cost him dearly. I don't think it was an easy time for him, at all, between his being cast out of his home, away from his family, losing his powers, disillusioned with God.. his whole previous, long life in shatters because he chose to side with these two humans, and his dickish behaviour sort of reflects his frustration, especially when he felt that Dean was letting him down.

    If I were Castiel I wouldn't feel like I had to apologize for his role in the apocalypse either, because he was forced to do it under threats from his superiors, and if he hadn't done it, someone else would (no shortage of non-Winchester loving angels out there) and the apocalypse would still have happened. More than turn his back on his whole life/family, rebel and die for the Winchesters, I don't know what he could have done, omission or not omission. He more than made up for it.

    More likely, the writers forgot or just didn't care to go back and deal with that issue (since Cas is rarely the focus of things), since in later instances Cas has shown no problems taking responsibility for his mistakes or apologizing.

    Yes, but all this refers to S4 and I am talking about S5. The moment Castiel turned to the Winchesters, because he felt that theirs is the rightful cause, he was inevitably measured by the same standards as Sam and Dean, and I find Castiel lacking in comparison.
    No, because there isn't a switch that can be switched and magically teach an angel to think or behave like a human being.

    Anyway, I'm trying to stop derailing the thread, dammit! We are not going to agree, not even in a million year! LOL I have no issue with this door thing and I don't particularly feel that it should have been revisited, but I wish the writers had done it so that it wouldn't have started your hatred of the character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    (...) in later instances Cas has shown no problems taking responsibility for his mistakes or apologizing.
    Well, I think that is very much debatable, but I am sure you don't want to start a discussion about Castiel in S6/7 any more than I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    No, because there isn't a switch that can be switched and magically teach an angel to think or behave like a human being.
    But I am still allowed to judge him in comparison to Sam and Dean and base my appreciation for the character on how he measures up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    Anyway, I'm trying to stop derailing the thread, dammit! We are not going to agree, not even in a million year! LOL I have no issue with this door thing and I don't particularly feel that it should have been revisited, but I wish the writers had done it so that it wouldn't have started your hatred of the character.
    Okay, we're way off topic and we both sleep better if we don't discuss Castiel any further. I would have preferred to like Castiel, it would make things much easier for me. The writers poor treatment of the character is a shame, because I think he could have been an amazing addition to the story (for me).
    Last edited by galathea; 19-05-13 at 05:00 PM.

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    On a completely different topic, here's something I've always wondered: what happens to angels and demons when they are killed? I mean, everyone goes somewhere when they die, right? Monsters go to Purgatory. Humans go to Heaven or Hell. So if you kill an angel, what happens? They just cease to exist, or do they end up in Heaven, or Super-Heaven, or what? I've always been curious about that- it would be really weird if humans had everlasting life in Heaven when they die but angels don't. Same with demons- I don't think we're meant to believe they end up in Purgatory but they can't go back to Hell or they wouldn't really be gone at all. It would be no different than an exorcism if that was the case.

    I know there's probably nothing that explains this, but I wonder it every time an angel or demon gets killed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregor View Post
    On a completely different topic, here's something I've always wondered: what happens to angels and demons when they are killed? I mean, everyone goes somewhere when they die, right? Monsters go to Purgatory. Humans go to Heaven or Hell. So if you kill an angel, what happens? They just cease to exist, or do they end up in Heaven, or Super-Heaven, or what? I've always been curious about that- it would be really weird if humans had everlasting life in Heaven when they die but angels don't. Same with demons- I don't think we're meant to believe they end up in Purgatory but they can't go back to Hell or they wouldn't really be gone at all. It would be no different than an exorcism if that was the case.

    I know there's probably nothing that explains this, but I wonder it every time an angel or demon gets killed.
    Well, I always figured they simply cease to exist. Humans and monsters have souls and those souls are released upon death and go to purgatory/hell/heaven. We know that angels don't have souls, they have their grace and I assume that the grace dissipates upon an angel's death (see the bright light when they are killed). Demons, on the other hand, are corrupted souls and I think that the properties of demon-killing weapons destroy that corrupted soul. That's my take on it anyway.

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    I thought that was a possibility, although if that's the case it's a little weird that Metatron would tell Castiel that after he lives his human life and comes back to Heaven that he should find him (Metatron) and tell him his story. If the grace is taken, why doesn't Castiel disappear then? What about Jimmy, the host he's wearing?

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    Just finished my season 8 re-watch, and this last episode Sacrifice bugs me. Or actually what really bugs me is the way the writers have Castiel being foolish again for the sake of the plot.
    How can I take the friendship between Dean and Cas serious, if the writers don't take the character serious?

    Like from the Clip Show
    Cas: "Dean, I thought I was doing the right thing"
    Dean: "Yeah, you always do"

    And again, the next episode, Cas thinks he's doing the right thing, doesn't know who to trust and foolishly helps Metatron with a stupid spell to cast all angels out. The first "trial" to kill an innocent, that should've raised questions...
    I don't understand why the writers often choose to make Castiel so dumb, and in other situations he knows everything and is very wise. It's very inconsistent and very annoying. And I understand why people can't connect with the character, it is just not written very well. And for Dean to always forgive and get past it, even though that's a very important quality of him, it just doesn't make sense. I really don't like what the writers have done with the character of Castiel over the years. I used to really like the guy, but he has been lying, been foolishly misled, destroyed Heaven and now casted all Angels out in a stupid action...

    Don't get me wrong, it's good to write a character with flaws, like Sam and Dean have obvious flaws. They lie to each other, they do stupid things, they kill innocent people to kill a demon, Dean was prepared to kill Kevins mother to kill Crowley, but then Dean won't let Sammie die to shut the gates of hell... It makes characters layered and often likeable (sometimes not..).

    But the thing that annoys me to the max is how stupid the writers make Castiel, and how that is causing me to not like the character, while I used to love him in seasons 4 and 5.
    (And the brainwashing by Naomi is not an issue to me, I felt sorry for Cas for that, and was proud at him for not killing Dean and fighting against it).


    I needed to get that off my chest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosely View Post
    Just finished my season 8 re-watch, and this last episode Sacrifice bugs me. Or actually what really bugs me is the way the writers have Castiel being foolish again for the sake of the plot.
    How can I take the friendship between Dean and Cas serious, if the writers don't take the character serious?

    Like from the Clip Show
    Cas: "Dean, I thought I was doing the right thing"
    Dean: "Yeah, you always do"

    And again, the next episode, Cas thinks he's doing the right thing, doesn't know who to trust and foolishly helps Metatron with a stupid spell to cast all angels out. The first "trial" to kill an innocent, that should've raised questions...
    I don't understand why the writers often choose to make Castiel so dumb, and in other situations he knows everything and is very wise. It's very inconsistent and very annoying. And I understand why people can't connect with the character, it is just not written very well. And for Dean to always forgive and get past it, even though that's a very important quality of him, it just doesn't make sense. I really don't like what the writers have done with the character of Castiel over the years. I used to really like the guy, but he has been lying, been foolishly misled, destroyed Heaven and now casted all Angels out in a stupid action...

    Don't get me wrong, it's good to write a character with flaws, like Sam and Dean have obvious flaws. They lie to each other, they do stupid things, they kill innocent people to kill a demon, Dean was prepared to kill Kevins mother to kill Crowley, but then Dean won't let Sammie die to shut the gates of hell... It makes characters layered and often likeable (sometimes not..).

    But the thing that annoys me to the max is how stupid the writers make Castiel, and how that is causing me to not like the character, while I used to love him in seasons 4 and 5.
    (And the brainwashing by Naomi is not an issue to me, I felt sorry for Cas for that, and was proud at him for not killing Dean and fighting against it).


    I needed to get that off my chest
    Oh I totally get the frustration you are feeling! In fact I was so close to giving up on the series entirely due to how angered I have become over their treatment of Castiel. I think part of it is the current team are just not that creative and like to make use of old ideas even with Sam and Dean parts of their characterisation are in a rut!

    But I can see why Cas was manipulated by Metatron, not only has he been crippled with overwhelming guilt for his actions in seasons six and season seven but he is scared and angry having to hide because of Naomi. With this scared, guilty and angry mindset in mind I can see why Castiel clung to it when Metatron came along and told him he could help to heal the damage he had caused by locking the angels in heaven and forcing them to talk. This was finally a chance for him to earn some sort of redemption for the mistakes of his past something we know from both A Little Slice of Kevin and Hunteri Heroici he wants desperately. As for his ignoring Naomi's warning well to be fair who are you going to believe the guy who at this point had always seemed friendly or the manipulative b*tch who has been mind-raping you for God knows how long?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    As for his ignoring Naomi's warning well to be fair who are you going to believe the guy who at this point had always seemed friendly or the manipulative b*tch who has been mind-raping you for God knows how long?
    I understand he didn't believe Naomi, but Kevin had been translating, and had JUST before that said that he didn't find anything about the bow of Cupid or killing the innocent half angel (I've forgotten how they were called). So Cas could've at least waited for Kevin to finish reading, tried to figure out what those two steps could've been and help Dean with Sam...

    And I my believes, the old better written Cas would've done that, and not jump to conclusions and be hasty this much...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosely View Post
    Just finished my season 8 re-watch, and this last episode Sacrifice bugs me. Or actually what really bugs me is the way the writers have Castiel being foolish again for the sake of the plot.
    How can I take the friendship between Dean and Cas serious, if the writers don't take the character serious?

    Like from the Clip Show
    Cas: "Dean, I thought I was doing the right thing"
    Dean: "Yeah, you always do"

    And again, the next episode, Cas thinks he's doing the right thing, doesn't know who to trust and foolishly helps Metatron with a stupid spell to cast all angels out. The first "trial" to kill an innocent, that should've raised questions...
    I don't understand why the writers often choose to make Castiel so dumb, and in other situations he knows everything and is very wise. It's very inconsistent and very annoying. And I understand why people can't connect with the character, it is just not written very well. And for Dean to always forgive and get past it, even though that's a very important quality of him, it just doesn't make sense. I really don't like what the writers have done with the character of Castiel over the years. I used to really like the guy, but he has been lying, been foolishly misled, destroyed Heaven and now casted all Angels out in a stupid action...

    Don't get me wrong, it's good to write a character with flaws, like Sam and Dean have obvious flaws. They lie to each other, they do stupid things, they kill innocent people to kill a demon, Dean was prepared to kill Kevins mother to kill Crowley, but then Dean won't let Sammie die to shut the gates of hell... It makes characters layered and often likeable (sometimes not..).

    But the thing that annoys me to the max is how stupid the writers make Castiel, and how that is causing me to not like the character, while I used to love him in seasons 4 and 5.
    (And the brainwashing by Naomi is not an issue to me, I felt sorry for Cas for that, and was proud at him for not killing Dean and fighting against it).


    I needed to get that off my chest
    I agree!!!

    This final arc of Metatron exacting his own revenge by having Cas yet again ignore Dean really frustrated me. I had been quite happy with the writing otherwise and this just feels repetitive in a bad way. Sometimes repetition brings up themes but this feels like recycled plot device. OMG! A powerful angel is deceitful and has a personal agenda? Never would have expected it. Cas ignores Dean showing no trust or respect for his opinion? Who could believe that?! [/sarcasm]

    There could have been other ways of bringing about the fallen angels storyline that wouldnt have used one or both of these overused plot devices. Even having Cas not specifically defy Dean's order to wait would have been preferable and would have showed character growth. Cas mad at Dean for waiting and it still happening would have at least been a new dynamic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    As for his ignoring Naomi's warning well to be fair who are you going to believe the guy who at this point had always seemed friendly or the manipulative b*tch who has been mind-raping you for God knows how long?
    Imo, Cas is supposed to trust in Dean. It shouldnt be an "either or" situation between Naomi and Metatron. :/


    Ultimately, I dont know if the writers are afraid of upsetting balances in fandom, but I would have preferred Cas to have made wrong choices out of personal vendetta as opposed to the misguided belief of it being for the greater good. I hate having to repeatedly forgive him as a poor nascent soul who just thinks he is doing what is right. If he is human this season, he better have some real character growth whether positive or negative traits.

    Lydia made the punch!

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    I don't get wet Bittersweettwit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosely View Post
    I understand he didn't believe Naomi, but Kevin had been translating, and had JUST before that said that he didn't find anything about the bow of Cupid or killing the innocent half angel (I've forgotten how they were called). So Cas could've at least waited for Kevin to finish reading, tried to figure out what those two steps could've been and help Dean with Sam...

    And I my believes, the old better written Cas would've done that, and not jump to conclusions and be hasty this much...
    Well first off just to confirm I am in complete and utter agreement about the poor quality of the writing and think things could have been done much better. But since were stuck with what we have got I have to try and see things from Cas' perspective

    As for why Castiel did not wait on Kevin you have to remember that Cas did not know the time frame it would take Kevin to complete his translation of the tablet. As Kevin himself says earlier in the episode it took him six months to complete translating even apart of the demon tablet or to put it into perspective he had the tablet for fourteen episodes before discovering the demon trials. In that light I don't think it is that unreasonable for Castiel to not want to wait for what could be months when the only word he had at this point was the word of a woman who had been mind raping him for a millennia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ehlwyen View Post
    I agree!!!

    This final arc of Metatron exacting his own revenge by having Cas yet again ignore Dean really frustrated me. I had been quite happy with the writing otherwise and this just feels repetitive in a bad way. Sometimes repetition brings up themes but this feels like recycled plot device. OMG! A powerful angel is deceitful and has a personal agenda? Never would have expected it. Cas ignores Dean showing no trust or respect for his opinion? Who could believe that?! [/sarcasm]

    There could have been other ways of bringing about the fallen angels storyline that wouldnt have used one or both of these overused plot devices. Even having Cas not specifically defy Dean's order to wait would have been preferable and would have showed character growth. Cas mad at Dean for waiting and it still happening would have at least been a new dynamic.



    Imo, Cas is supposed to trust in Dean. It shouldnt be an "either or" situation between Naomi and Metatron. :/


    Ultimately, I dont know if the writers are afraid of upsetting balances in fandom, but I would have preferred Cas to have made wrong choices out of personal vendetta as opposed to the misguided belief of it being for the greater good. I hate having to repeatedly forgive him as a poor nascent soul who just thinks he is doing what is right. If he is human this season, he better have some real character growth whether positive or negative traits.
    I don't think the purpose of this scene was meant to be about Castiel not trusting Dean's judgement. This was an entirely different situation to say season six when he went behind Dean's back and purposely kept secrets from him through lies and half truths, or even earlier in the season when he fled with the angel tablet. In fact he was before this quite open and trusting of Dean in this episode inviting him to help him deal with the cupid or trusting his judgement when Dean advised going for negotiation rather than killing. In hindsight considering the lack of danger that mission posed I think Castiel may have even sub-consciously wanted this chance to be open and say goodbye to Dean.

    And also we have to remember it was not as though Dean was opposed to the concept of Castiel completing the 'angel trials' in fact before Naomi's speech he had been actively helping him. It was only when Naomi told them the truth that Dean started to have doubts and considering the fact Cas knows better than anyone how manipulative she can be from his dealings with her is it really that surprising he wasn't as inclined to agree with Dean who was only going by Naomi's word? I know in Cas' situation I wouldn't believe a word out of her mouth either.

    However I do agree that a much better way of handling it would have been for Cas to listen to Dean's orders and for disaster to have happened anyway making Dean for once in the wrong and establishing a new dynamic. The 'saint Dean' trope not just with Cas but also with Sam is getting beyond old and grating to me
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    'Whatever details you alter, we will always end up...here.''
    ''The angels aren't listening, they just left, gave up.''- Future Dean
    ''Dean, I'm not an angel anymore...I went mortal''- Future Cas

    The same things are happening, Details are just being altered.
    I know i keep mentioning this but i really think this is the end-game here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosely View Post
    Just finished my season 8 re-watch, and this last episode Sacrifice bugs me. Or actually what really bugs me is the way the writers have Castiel being foolish again for the sake of the plot.
    How can I take the friendship between Dean and Cas serious, if the writers don't take the character serious?

    Like from the Clip Show
    Cas: "Dean, I thought I was doing the right thing"
    Dean: "Yeah, you always do"

    And again, the next episode, Cas thinks he's doing the right thing, doesn't know who to trust and foolishly helps Metatron with a stupid spell to cast all angels out. The first "trial" to kill an innocent, that should've raised questions...
    I don't understand why the writers often choose to make Castiel so dumb, and in other situations he knows everything and is very wise. It's very inconsistent and very annoying. And I understand why people can't connect with the character, it is just not written very well. And for Dean to always forgive and get past it, even though that's a very important quality of him, it just doesn't make sense. I really don't like what the writers have done with the character of Castiel over the years. I used to really like the guy, but he has been lying, been foolishly misled, destroyed Heaven and now casted all Angels out in a stupid action...

    Don't get me wrong, it's good to write a character with flaws, like Sam and Dean have obvious flaws. They lie to each other, they do stupid things, they kill innocent people to kill a demon, Dean was prepared to kill Kevins mother to kill Crowley, but then Dean won't let Sammie die to shut the gates of hell... It makes characters layered and often likeable (sometimes not..).

    But the thing that annoys me to the max is how stupid the writers make Castiel, and how that is causing me to not like the character, while I used to love him in seasons 4 and 5.
    (And the brainwashing by Naomi is not an issue to me, I felt sorry for Cas for that, and was proud at him for not killing Dean and fighting against it).


    I needed to get that off my chest
    All this (which I'm not happy about either, even though it doesn't make me dislike Cas, it makes me dislike the writers and their lack of talent) is because, after season 5, TPTB seems to have struggled for ideas. How do you reboot a show that had reached its natural end??

    I think the fact that most people (except Chris ) hated season 6 and 7 illutrates this struggle.

    After season 5, they seem to not have known what to do with Castiel (Gamble apparently didn't want him in the show, since she tried to write him off uncerimoniously), and they have used Castiel as a scapegoat to blame for everything that goes wrong, and catalyst to drive most of the mytharc.

    In season 6, it was the (sadly off-screen) civil war in heaven and Castiel's consequent alliance with Crowley that drove the action. Cas brought back Sam soulless from the cage (which wasn't the original plan, from what I have read... Cas wasn't supposed to have been the one to do it, but then they decided for that), resulting in soulless Sam. Cas broke Sam wall, resulting in Sam's madness.

    In season 7, Cas became Godstiel and then "died", releasing the Leviathans, who were the season villains/mytharc.
    Cas was out of the picture, but the consequences of his actions were still driving the story: Sam's deteriorating health (complete with Lucifer allucinations), the Leviathans plotting to take over the world, and at the end Cas and Dean finally ending up in Purgatory.

    In season 8, Cas, by trusting Metatron, unwittingly causes the fall of the angels, which is going to be the mytharc for season 9.

    So Castiel is rarely on screen (because he is too powerful is the official excuse), but when he is (99% of the time in mytharc-heavy episodes, which most of the time don't allow for much character work ) he is used as a plot device to make things happen (most often than not, negative things. They turned him from a righteous, heroic character to a bumbling fool who makes mistake after mistake, with the risk of turning tragedy into farse), at the detriment of character consistency and character development. I deeply resent that. This isn't the way to treat a character that most of the fandom cares about (to the point where many think of him as a third lead).

    It's only because I still have some hope left that things are going to change for the better that I don't wish him off the show. But if season 9 continues on this trend, I'll say that all hope is lost and that it would have been way better for the character not to return after season 5.
    Last edited by Francy; 08-09-13 at 08:59 PM.

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    I don't get wet Bittersweettwit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikey121 View Post
    'Whatever details you alter, we will always end up...here.''
    ''The angels aren't listening, they just left, gave up.''- Future Dean
    ''Dean, I'm not an angel anymore...I went mortal''- Future Cas

    The same things are happening, Details are just being altered.
    I know i keep mentioning this but i really think this is the end-game here.
    Hmm there were actually

    General S9
    Spoiler:
    spoiler pictures released for 9x02 that several people thought looked like they were based in the endverse due to the background.


    Guess we shall have to see what happens?
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