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Thread: 8x23 Sacrifice

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    Default 8x23 Sacrifice

    Whoa! That ending was so beautiful. In fact,the whole episode looked good from the devil's chili billboard to the abandoned church to the strange crucifix. I wish the show always had a budget llke this! But the dark skies full of falling stars was breathtaking.

    I was so happy to see Abaddon return! She was fantastically bold and powerful. I loved seeing her stomp all over Crowley and tell him she was ready to take over. I hated to see Sam torch her so no more Alaina Huffman. But even that was beautiful imagery with her smoking out. I swear, when Abaddon returns, they better keep her rough edged fashion style.

    I loved the twist that Castiel wasnt doing the angel tablet trials! Metatron really did have his own agenda! I didnt think he was that crafty. Wow, how chilling it was when he told Castiel to come find him after he died to tell him his story! That was scarier than most any threat on the show.

    OMG, that speech by Dean to Sam, was one of the most touching on this show. I dont usually get moved by these type moments but this one was ridiculously powerful and perfectly said!

    I am not sure how I feel that Sam's deteriorating condition could be alleviated by Sam just letting it go. I wonder if that was temporary and Sam will need some help to become healthy again next season.

    The one thing that did disappoint me in retrospect is that we spent over a season focused on completing these demon trials to just completely abandon them. *sigh* I was so looking forward to being done with demons.

    So many more feelings, it is hard process it all.

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    I agree, all the falling angels was both visually stunning and moving to watch. I'm not sure how I feel about many other aspects of the episode, though I agree it was very visually appealing. I really loved the gambit they played to meet with Crowley and then save him for the third trial, and it was kind of cool to see Crowley regain some humanity. But I'm just going to say it- sometimes it's appropriate to consider the greater good, and Sam should have completed the trials even if it meant he would die. Dean was ready to die doing the trials, as he explicitly stated. To be able to rid the world forever of demons? That's something worth the sacrifice. He would go to Heaven. There are worse things.

    I was disappointed that Castiel was once again led astray, and pretty easily at that. It makes me sad that an angel who so consistently wants to do the right thing and atone for his mistakes keep making things worse every time he tries. To me it seemed like they all trusted Metatron far too quickly.

    BTW, I absolutely LOVED the fact that when they were waiting for cupid to show up, it was the two big burly men who were going to fall in love.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ehlwyen View Post
    I was so happy to see Abaddon return! She was fantastically bold and powerful. I loved seeing her stomp all over Crowley and tell him she was ready to take over. I hated to see Sam torch her so no more Alaina Huffman. But even that was beautiful imagery with her smoking out. I swear, when Abaddon returns, they better keep her rough edged fashion style.
    I have to agree that was a pretty enjoyable scene if only for the fact that we finally got to see someone give Crowley a good beating. I wonder what will happen with Crowley and Abaddon next season... With Crowley mostly humanised (Sam got to the final dosage before giving up didnt' he?) will he start to work with the boys fighting against a hell Abbadon has already taken over? Or will the demon plot involve more of a constant power struggle between the two with the boys having to fight both?

    I loved the twist that Castiel wasnt doing the angel tablet trials! Metatron really did have his own agenda! I didnt think he was that crafty. Wow, how chilling it was when he told Castiel to come find him after he died to tell him his story! That was scarier than most any threat on the show.
    I on the other hand hated that the writers opted to once again go down the "idiot Cas got led astray and didn't listen to the brothers" route Still I did feel sorry for Cas in his scene with Metatron. Personally I think his arc for next season will be trying to get his grace back and fix up the mess he caused by making the angels fall from the heavens. Especially if the writers opt for making the fallen angels the big threat of next season rather than having them disappear quietly into the background...

    I am not sure how I feel that Sam's deteriorating condition could be alleviated by Sam just letting it go. I wonder if that was temporary and Sam will need some help to become healthy again next season.
    But was it alleviating Sam's health? I've only watched the episode once so perhaps I misinterpreted things, but I was under the impression that the brothers hugged and then Sam collapsed and had to be dragged outside in some sort of pain. It suggested to me that abandoning the trials and recovering Sam's health was not going to be as simple as "letting go" like Dean suggested in his speech.

    The one thing that did disappoint me in retrospect is that we spent over a season focused on completing these demon trials to just completely abandon them. *sigh* I was so looking forward to being done with demons.
    I agree! There seems to be a mixed feeling amongst fans about that decision from what I've seen some fans appear to appreciate that Dean put Sam first while others see it as a selfish decision that undermines what others such as Kevin have lost over the course of the season and makes the whole thing pointless! I can understand where both parties are coming from. On the one hand in terms of story-telling it is rather unsatisfying for them to suddenly drop something they've spent so long on, but on the other hand I don't think the brothers decision was that selfish. It definitely was in a sense but as we know from Swan Song Sam and Dean both are prepared to put the world first when it comes to saving it, but these trials were never about saving the world rather they were hoping to change it and thus I have no real issues with them choosing to save Sam's life. As Dean says even from undergoing the trials they've learnt a number of new things which will still give the brothers a new advantage in the battle against demons

    What do the rest of you think of the brothers decision to stop the trials?

    Quote Originally Posted by gregor View Post
    But I'm just going to say it- sometimes it's appropriate to consider the greater good, and Sam should have completed the trials even if it meant he would die. Dean was ready to die doing the trials, as he explicitly stated. To be able to rid the world forever of demons? That's something worth the sacrifice. He would go to Heaven. There are worse things.
    See above for my thoughts on this Plus I think a large part of Sam's decision to stop wasn't that he was too cowardly or "afraid" to die, but that he didn't want to let Dean down again. He knows the damage his death would have done to Dean's psyche and he wanted to save his brother from that pain especially since unlike Swan Song his death wasn't required to save the world. The status quo will simply remain which is a lot less selfish a decision than had Sam decided to let the world burn as long as he gets to live a bit longer

    I was disappointed that Castiel was once again led astray, and pretty easily at that. It makes me sad that an angel who so consistently wants to do the right thing and atone for his mistakes keep making things worse every time he tries. To me it seemed like they all trusted Metatron far too quickly.
    Agreed
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregor View Post
    But I'm just going to say it- sometimes it's appropriate to consider the greater good, and Sam should have completed the trials even if it meant he would die. Dean was ready to die doing the trials, as he explicitly stated. To be able to rid the world forever of demons? That's something worth the sacrifice. He would go to Heaven. There are worse things.
    I have to agree with Bittersweettwit on that one. Sam was absolutely prepared to die for the cause. His 'So?' when Dean told him that he would die if he completed the trial clearly illustrated that he had already accepted his death. In the end he abandons the cause for Dean's sake. He chooses to live for Dean, in a beautiful reverse parallel to Swan Song, where he chose to die for Dean (and the world). Is closing the gates of hell worthy of a sacrifice? Absolutely! Is it a necessary sacrifice? Not at all. Is it selfish for Sam and Dean to put their own needs first for once? I don't think so. Given what the brothers have already sacrificed in the past 30+ years, I think they have every right to choose each other in this particular situation.

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    I was a bit disappointed, to tell you the truth.
    I was expecting Sam to complete the trials and sacrifice himself but it just felt like the writers lack the courage to do that next step. I am not sure what.

    I agree that the angels falling from the sky was a nice visual but I didn´t like how Cas was duped once again.

    I am a bit scared for future seasons because they´re kinda recycling plots over and over and over.

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    I don't follow spoilers, does anyone know if there is a projected end to the series, or are they just on a 'renew year by year' scenario?

    One thing I have to say about Metatron- while it sucks for Castiel (because we like Castiel) that he did what he did, I can see why he (Metatron) decided that the angels deserved to be cast out of Heaven. Except for Castiel and a few others, angels are usually bad guys in the series, and that is consistently disappointing to me. Metatron is probably thinking more along the same lines that God would be, if he was still around, about kicking the angels out of Heaven. But now angels are going to be humanity's problem. Did they lose their grace by falling, or will they be pretty much as they were but just unable to get into Heaven? I was not clear on that.

    I completely see what everyone is saying about it not being selfish for Dean and Sam to choose each other. I don't think it was selfish at all, I just think the other decision would have been better. I also thought it was weird that they were so surprised to find out that completing the trials would kill Sam. They had considered this possibility already and had decided to go forward regardless when it was Dean. On the other hand, considering how screwed over they have been by angels and God every time they try to follow divine instructions, I can see why they would walk away from it. There are always unintended consequences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregor View Post
    I don't follow spoilers, does anyone know if there is a projected end to the series, or are they just on a 'renew year by year' scenario?
    Renewal is year by year, but the CW exec says he watches the show so I hope that means he would like it to make 10. And for such a long running show, they probably would promote the last season as a final season to bring in viewers.
    One thing I have to say about Metatron- while it sucks for Castiel (because we like Castiel) that he did what he did, I can see why he (Metatron) decided that the angels deserved to be cast out of Heaven. Except for Castiel and a few others, angels are usually bad guys in the series, and that is consistently disappointing to me. Metatron is probably thinking more along the same lines that God would be, if he was still around, about kicking the angels out of Heaven. But now angels are going to be humanity's problem. Did they lose their grace by falling, or will they be pretty much as they were but just unable to get into Heaven? I was not clear on that.
    I think it is still up in the air as to whether the angels fully lost their grace and are mortal like Castiel, or if they are only denied access to heaven's powers like Castiel in 5.04 The End, or if they are still angels but cant reach Heaven. I am quite intrigued to find out what the angels' condition will be. If the angels' grace was ripped from them, is it forever lost, or will it be able to be restored like how Anna had to go search for where her grace landed? Wheeeeeeeee! Possibilitieeeeeeees!


    I also like that Castiel's current condition will probably be different than others because Metatron did a spell using his grace.

    I completely see what everyone is saying about it not being selfish for Dean and Sam to choose each other. I don't think it was selfish at all, I just think the other decision would have been better. I also thought it was weird that they were so surprised to find out that completing the trials would kill Sam. They had considered this possibility already and had decided to go forward regardless when it was Dean. On the other hand, considering how screwed over they have been by angels and God every time they try to follow divine instructions, I can see why they would walk away from it. There are always unintended consequences.
    LOL, yeah i agree it was weird to be surprised. Sam's "So?" was utterly classic in speaking for all viewers! It was analagous to Dean earlier telling Cas, "What show have you been watching?" when asked if he should be drinking. Seriously Dean, Sam's dying was always a likely possibility. But I can see there is a difference in perspective for Dean in thinking there is only a chance compared to knowing 100% that will be the outcome.

    I loved in the speech when Dean said that they had learned so much from the trials. They really have learned some quite revolutionary things. I agree with Dean that together the Winchesters can do a lot with that knowledge while there is uncertainity of how closing hell would affect earth and humanity. So I think it was the better choice to hold off on completing the trials. They were so close and it is possible to continue it later.

    My memory is a bit sketchy, it was Metatron, not Kevin that revealed the final trial, right? If so, maybe with time, Kevin can do more translating and figure out a way to keep Sam from dying in the final trial?

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    I wonder if Crowley stays modified now- Sam did not finish saving him, so does he stay warm-and-fuzzy Crowley, or does he revert to his former self? Seems kind of mean to leave him half-saved, but of course someone else could save him without dying, just not Sam. And I suppose they could always re-start the trials if they decide it's the right thing to do. If they have to save another innocent soul from Hell, I hope they choose their brother who is locked in Lucifer's box with him. I really hate that he's stuck in there for all time. Not sure how they'd do that, but that loose end has always really bothered me.

    Plot-hole: Why didn't their arms light up when they freed their father from Hell? That should have counted as the first trial, so technically Sam has completed the trials- although I don't think he was the one who actually opened the door. But whoever opened the door did complete a trial. Do you have to do them in order?

    I'm not sure how they would do this, but if the series is going to end it would be nice if maybe God would come back from sabbatical. But I'm sure I would be disappointed with their characterization of God; he'd probably be presented as Don Corleone or something.

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    I was thinking that Sam would actually succeed (and we'd be rid of Crowley) and then the fallen angels would be the big problem for next season. It's not like Sam hasn't died before and I'm shocked that he didn't sacrifice himself because by not doing so the demons will continue to roam free. It's also not like Sam hasn't died before - he's already lived a lot longer than he was supposed to, he died quite a while back.

    I want God to show up and tell them how much they've all effed things up. Where is he anyway? All the major stuff is happening and he doesn't even bother to help at all?

    I guess there wasn't any reason not to trust Metatron, but I never really felt like I knew what his agenda was (same with Naomi).

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    Quote Originally Posted by buffyholic View Post
    I was a bit disappointed, to tell you the truth.
    I was expecting Sam to complete the trials and sacrifice himself but it just felt like the writers lack the courage to do that next step. I am not sure what.
    Hmm see with any other show I would probably agree that it was the writers chickening out, but then this is supernatural were talking about a show where the three main characters have died multiple times. I thought that it was a nice change for a finale to not end with Dean, Sam or Castiel dead and as Galathea comments above it's a beautiful parallel to Swan Song in that while back then Sam died for his brother this time around he is living for Dean.

    Quote Originally Posted by gregor View Post
    One thing I have to say about Metatron- while it sucks for Castiel (because we like Castiel) that he did what he did, I can see why he (Metatron) decided that the angels deserved to be cast out of Heaven. Except for Castiel and a few others, angels are usually bad guys in the series, and that is consistently disappointing to me. Metatron is probably thinking more along the same lines that God would be, if he was still around, about kicking the angels out of Heaven. But now angels are going to be humanity's problem.
    But didn't the conversation between Naomi and Metatron reveal that his motives were solely based on revenge? His reason for kicking the angels out of heaven was that he wanted to get his own back on them for Naomi and the arch-angels chasing him out of his home after God left? I would say that is more of a personal vendetta than an altruistic wish to complete the work of God

    Did they lose their grace by falling, or will they be pretty much as they were but just unable to get into Heaven? I was not clear on that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ehlwyen View Post
    I think it is still up in the air as to whether the angels fully lost their grace and are mortal like Castiel, or if they are only denied access to heaven's powers like Castiel in 5.04 The End, or if they are still angels but cant reach Heaven. I am quite intrigued to find out what the angels' condition will be. If the angels' grace was ripped from them, is it forever lost, or will it be able to be restored like how Anna had to go search for where her grace landed? Wheeeeeeeee! Possibilitieeeeeeees!
    I agree with Lyn that the episode does not make it clear what will happen to the angels now they are on earth. However, the episode does mention that they are falling 'like Lucifer' and so that's the model I'm assuming this fall will follow! Of course it could turn out I'm taking the Lucifer comparison too literally and he was simply mentioned as the angel most famous for falling from grace.

    If I am correct though to assume the current fall will be like Lucifer's then I'd imagine that the angels will be stuck on earth fully powered, but in a non-corporal form depending on getting the consent of their vessels by communicating with them via means similar to Lucifer with Nick in Sympathy for the Devil or Castiel with Jimmy in The Rapture. We know that Castiel is human, but that's due to the fact his grace was taken from him to be used as an ingredient for the spell and not as a consequence of the spell .

    My memory is a bit sketchy, it was Metatron, not Kevin that revealed the final trial, right? If so, maybe with time, Kevin can do more translating and figure out a way to keep Sam from dying in the final trial?
    It was indeed Metatron who revealed the third trial at the end of The Great Escapist. However, Kevin had previously done his own independent study of the tablet and the only reason he didn't tell the brothers was simply due to the fact that Metatron stole his thunder before he got the words out. This is confirmed by the fact he previously stated to Dean he got the third trial, but didn't tell Crowley and in response to Metatron he states a confirming "Yeah" before asking who he was .

    Quote Originally Posted by gregor View Post
    Plot-hole: Why didn't their arms light up when they freed their father from Hell? That should have counted as the first trial, so technically Sam has completed the trials- although I don't think he was the one who actually opened the door. But whoever opened the door did complete a trial. Do you have to do them in order?
    In real life it's simply a case of the whole trials to close the gates of hell would not even have been a figment in the writers mind at the end of season two On the show itself though the reason why John being freed from hell at the end of All Hell Breaks Loose, or Dean being freed by Castiel in Lazarus Rising would not have counted is due to the fact that as we found out in Trial and Error that the process of completing the trials can only begin after a spell has been read out loud by someone who completed the first trial
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    Does everyone still hate Naomi? I thought it was a shame she died, had some potential as kind of like a villain / non villain. Sure she was evil, she brainwashed a few Angels, killed those people in the cafe, but i felt that she did the right thing in the end, in her conversation with Castiel and Dean.

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    I have wanted to comment on the finale since the moment I finished watching it, but I have been in a very non-posting mood. I still am. I'm making an effort here LOL

    Overall, I enjoyed the episode. It wasn't perfect, of course, far from it, but overall I like the direction it took the show into after a very uneven season, with more misses than hits.

    What I liked:

    - Crowley's almost being cured. Kudos to Mark Sheppard for a great performance!! I hope the partial cure sticks and next season we get to see a different, more human/less evil Crowley. I love Crowley, but he was getting old... this way we get to keep him without his "muahaha" moustache-twirling shenanigans.

    - Kevin survived!!!!!!!!

    - The melancholic Dean/Cas bar scene. I'm glad Dean's rage has boiled down a bit, and that Cas went to him for help (better late than never... even though I'm not very clear on why Dean was particularly needed here). We need more friendship and quiet scenes between these two... it can't just be angst and myth-arc related stuff all the time.

    - The gay couple being the target of Cupid's mission was sweet. Heaven-endorsed same-sex relationships.. how progressive of the show. If only they stopped queerbaiting, it would be even better.

    - The angels being cast out of heaven. I never saw that twist coming! Well done, Carver and co! I knew Metatron was up to no good (long gone were my illusions of him being a good angel, for a change) and I knew that the brothers and Cas had gotten duped again (seriously, enough of that... I'm one of the biggest Cas fans around, andI'm starting to be fed up with him because of his constant f*ck-ups. There's a point where tragedy becomes a farce, and the writers are dangerously close to crossing that line with his character..if they haven't already.), but I didn't expect that move on Metatron's part or for him to be such a badass villain. He's promising as big bad, if they use him well next year. He can also go eff himself, though. As Dean would say, son of a b*tch. You stole Cas's grace, among other things!

    - The last 5 minutes with the batcave alarms setting off, and the angels falling like shooting stars was visually stunning; along with the music and Dean/Sam/Cas looking at the sky, it gave me goosebumps.
    It will be interesting to see how they play the "angels among us" angle.

    - Cas is human! Most people predicted that this was going to happen, so it wasn't surprising. It was the only possible solution if they wanted to keep him on the show (which shouldn't even be a point of contention anymore, as far as I'm concerned *lalalala I can't hear you, haters* lalalala). Hopefully now they will use him for more than 2 minutes per episode and more than a total of 5 episodes, and they will be able to use him as a proper character (with personal growth, learning from one's mistake and all that) instead of a plot device/tool. Please... they have abused this character enough already.

    I have wanted Cas to fall for a long time, but now that it has happened I just feel said at the loss of his angelic-ness. And maybe because I didn't care much for how it happened, which leads me to the things I didn't like.

    Things I didn't like:

    - That Cas didn't get a choice in giving up his grace. I wanted the fall to be HIS choice, but no, he is denied agency again, just to make him even more miserable (and on top of that, let him also carry the guilt for contributing to ALL his brothers and sisters being cast out of their home. Ouch.)

    - That the brothers didn't complete the hell trials. I don't really have a problem with Dean choosing to save Sam over closing the gates of hell. It IS selfish, of course, but they are allowed to be selfish once in a while. They have already sacrificed enough for the world, why should they always be the ones to carry such a burden and die and suffer? There are 7 billion people in the world. BUT I have a problem with the season-long (or half season-long) trial arc coming to nothing at all, including the people (Meg, Benny, SARAH!!!!!! ) who died for nothing, just for Dean to stop Sam and say "nevermind, changed my mind. Abort abort!" They should have had something preventing Sam from completing the third trial, some external obstacle... Sam still wouldn't have died, and I wouldn't feel like the whole thing was such a cosmic waste of time.

    - Naomi's death. I loved Amanda Tapping in the role, even though she was bad to my booboo Cas. I would have liked to see more of her.

    - The torching of Abbadon's meatsuit... NOOOOOOO!! That actress was the best, I don't want a change of vessel/actress.

    - The Sam/Dean speech. Sorry, not my thing. At this point I don't care about the brotherly bond, and that's not why I watch the show. But despite that, I usually enjoy their scenes, but this one didn't work for me and made me roll my eyes/get a little mad. I liked that we finally were allowed inside Sam's mind/feelings, and I sympathize with his feelings of inadequacy... but geez, enough with this bloody codependence! Sorry, I hate it, and I don't need to hear the brothers (Dean, especially) constantly having to declare how they love each other more than anything and anyone and how they can't live without each other and what not. It's been established, we know. Also, it may come as a surprise to Sam, but the world doesn't revolve around him.

    Dean doesn't make friends with other people because Sam lets him down, or because he can't turn to Sam...that's really dismissive. He makes friends with other people because he values them and they value Dean, and they make a connection, and a friendship grows. Dean is allowed to (and should) have his own life and his own relationships outside his brother (and so should Sam), but apparently Sam (and most of the time Dean too) seems to not get it. That's a self-involved and egocentric (and also immature) way of viewing things, and this unhealthy codependency in grown men is why I am really not a fan of the brothers anymore. Please, please, let them grow past this.

    Also, wasn't Sam insisting some time ago that he had to be the one to carry out the trials because he wanted to live, while Dean didn't see a light at the end of the tunnel and so he was more likely to die in the process for not trying to survive hard enough?? What happened to that? Sam's "so" to Dean claiming that Sam was going to die sounded a lot like resignation/willingness to die to me, just like Dean...

    - I don't like that next season there's still going to be something wrong with Sam, given that he is sick from the trials. Can we please heal him, and let him be okay for once?? Switch the roles, make Sam worry and look after Dean and his problems for once... yeah, right. I shouldn't even be suggesting that, what am I thinking...

    - Several plot holes weren't answered in the finale, like who was the person watching Sam leave Amelia's house, and I'm sure there are many others....

    Overall, I was moderately happy with the season finale. I hope next season is consistently better than season 8... I hope Carver and co do their homework during the summer!!
    Last edited by Francy; 18-05-13 at 07:35 PM.

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    Bittersweettwit: But didn't the conversation between Naomi and Metatron reveal that his motives were solely based on revenge? His reason for kicking the angels out of heaven was that he wanted to get his own back on them for Naomi and the arch-angels chasing him out of his home after God left? I would say that is more of a personal vendetta than an altruistic wish to complete the work of God
    Yes, I agree that he was doing his for his own reasons and not to carry out God's divine will. I just happen to also think that if God was still around, he'd be A-OK with kicking all the angels out of Heaven. He tossed Lucifer out on his ass because... well according to the show, it's because he would not pay adequate homage to mankind, although that's not my understanding of what the reason was in Revelations. But whatever. So I certainly think God would be onboard with Metatron's decision, aside from the hubris of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    The melancholic Dean/Cas bar scene. I'm glad Dean's rage has boiled down a bit, and that Cas went to him for help (better late than never... even though I'm not very clear on why Dean was particularly needed here). We need more friendship and quiet scenes between these two... it can't just be angst and myth-arc related stuff all the time.
    While I would agree that Dean and Castiel need more friendship scenes to actually show us that they're friends - which, as you know, is really difficult for me to swallow at the moment - the timing and tone of that scene was absolutely awful and inappropriate. Sorry, I just don't find it believeable that Dean would kick back and have a beer with Castiel, knowing that his brother - who looks like he's about to collapse - is going off alone to fulfill the third trial. As you said yourself, Dean isn't really needed at all in that situation, and it just doesn't sit right with me that he seems so unconcerned. So, that whole scene annoyed me to no end. I really hate that whenever Castiel shows up in an episode, Dean goes off with Castiel and Sam goes off alone. So much for them being a team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    I don't need to hear the brothers (Dean, especially) constantly having to declare how they love each other more than anything and anyone and how they can't live without each other and what not. It's been established, we know.
    For me that last scene between the brothers was the best moment of the episode, obviously. However, I have to somewhat agree with you here. There has never been a doubt that Dean loves Sam and that he puts Sam above all others; that has firmly been established by now. While I think it is important for Sam to actually hear that from Dean, I think he what he needs to hear more is that Dean respects, trusts and likes him as his own person, as the person who is flawed and who sometimes fails him. Sam's insecurities and hurt are not only rooted in his own self-loathing for letting Dean down, but also stem from Dean's behaviour towards him. The way Dean once again blames Sam for his soullessness and throws Ruby, Lilith and Lucifer in his face, even though Sam has long atoned for those failures, really calls Dean's sincerity in question. And telling Sam that he loves him and would do anything for him is not the same as telling him that he trusts him and thinks he is a good person. The first is a statement about Dean and the sacrifices is willing to make, the latter is a statement about Sam and his value as a person. So, yeah, while I am happy that Sam and Dean were finally allowed to address their earlier conflict, I wished Dean had chosen his words a bit differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    Dean doesn't make friends with other people because Sam lets him down, or because he can't turn to Sam...that's really dismissive. He makes friends with other people because he values them and they value Dean, and they make a connection, and a friendship grows. Dean is allowed to (and should) have his own life and his own relationships outside his brother (and so should Sam), but apparently Sam (and most of the time Dean too) seems to not get it.
    That's not what I got from that particular scene. In the past 7 years, Sam has not once resented or critisised Dean's friendship with others; on the contrary, he has always encouraged Dean's various relationships (except for Benny and there have been extenuating circumstances for that). So, I don't think that Sam suddenly believes that Dean shouldn't have friends and family besides him. No, in that moment, Sam is talking about the fact that he considers letting Dean down his greatest sin, and Benny and Castiel are both very closely interwoven with those feelings of guilt, because they did what Sam did not, namely rescue him from purgatory. He failed Dean in that regard and his feelings of inadequacy prompt his statement that Dean needs to turn to angels and vampires instead of him. It's not so much a statement about the value of Dean's relationships than it is a statement about Sam's self-loathing.
    Last edited by galathea; 18-05-13 at 09:38 PM.

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    I guess I never saw Sam as being a self-loathing person, not in the same way that Dean is. (Osiris picked Dean, and Dean convicted himself. Not Sam.) I think it's pretty obvious that Dean has a lot of self-loathing, so I'll leave it at that regarding him. But Sam is a little more complicated. He never seems to give up on the idea that he could have a real life, that he has something to offer. He has hope of survival (in the beginning) in the trials whereas Dean just assumes that he will die, and that's ok because he's just a grunt.

    I ultimately felt unsatisfied with that speech because I didn't think it explained anything, really. Sam still hasn't really said (not to my satisfaction, anyway) why he didn't look for Dean. I don't know why, but it just felt off. Dean has been very protective with Sam, yes, but I hadn't really had this feeling that whatever was unresolved between them was about Dean questioning Sam's competence and Sam feeling like he was constantly failing Dean somehow. Plus, they have these little brother-mance moments at the end of every season, just about. It's a little repetitive.

    Did Naomi actually die? I somehow missed that. I thought she would have fallen like the other angels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    While I would agree that Dean and Castiel need more friendship scenes to actually show us that they're friends - which, as you know, is really difficult for me to swallow at the moment - the timing and tone of that scene was absolutely awful and inappropriate. Sorry, I just don't find it believeable that Dean would kick back and have a beer with Castiel, knowing that his brother - who looks like he's about to collapse - is going off alone to fulfill the third trial. As you said yourself, Dean isn't really needed at all in that situation, and it just doesn't sit right with me that he seems so unconcerned. So, that whole scene annoyed me to no end. I really hate that whenever Castiel shows up in an episode, Dean goes off with Castiel and Sam goes off alone. So much for them being a team.
    I agree! I liked the scene itself (give me Dean/Cas scenes everytime! LOL ) but the timing was stupid. Another instance of stupid writing, like when Sam and Dean left Abbadon alone and she escaped, and countless other examples this season.

    Evidently they have scenes in mind and plot developments that they want to happen, but they can't make them happen naturally, so they bend the characters (dumb them up, make them act OOC etc) to get where they want to get. Lazy writing.

    For me that last scene between the brothers was the best moment of the episode, obviously. However, I have to somewhat agree with you here. There has never been a doubt that Dean loves Sam and that he puts Sam above all others; that has firmly been established by now. While I think it is important for Sam to actually hear that from Dean, I think he what he needs to hear more is that Dean respects, trusts and likes him as his own person, as the person who is flawed and who sometimes fails him. Sam's insecurities and hurt are not only rooted in his own self-loathing for letting Dean down, but also stem from Dean's behaviour towards him. The way Dean once again blames Sam for his soullessness and throws Ruby, Lilith and Lucifer in his face, even though Sam has long atoned for those failures, really calls Dean's sincerity in question. And telling Sam that he loves him and would do anything for him is not the same as telling him that he trusts him and thinks he is a good person. The first is a statement about Dean and the sacrifices is willing to make, the latter is a statement about Sam and his value as a person. So, yeah, while I am happy that Sam and Dean were finally allowed to address their earlier conflict, I wished Dean had chosen his words a bit differently.
    I just wish the writers stopped with the unneeded conflict between the brothers (and Cas, they are repeating the same pattern there), there has been enough in 8 seasons, and the angst this season was totally contrived. This is not what people want to see, everyone is sick of the jealousy drama/trust issues, and everyone (from what I read) would rather the guys just get along, work together, care for each other, and be united against external threats.

    I'm glad that at least they allowed the brothers to have a confrontation, as long as next year they they move them forward, and not backwards to repeat the same patterns again and again!

    One of the main gripes I have with this season is that they never let Dean and Cas have a whole explicative/resolutive conversation, sort of like the Dean/sam one. They fabricate conflict, and then they don't resolve it, and just gloss over it!

    That's not what I got from that particular scene. In the past 7 years, Sam has not once resented or critisised Dean's friendship with others; on the contrary, he has always encouraged Dean's various relationships (except for Benny and there have been extenuating circumstances for that). So, I don't think that Sam suddenly believes that Dean shouldn't have friends and family besides him. No, in that moment, Sam is talking about the fact that he considers letting Dean down his greatest sin, and Benny and Castiel are both very closely interwoven with those feelings of guilt, because they did what Sam did not, namely rescue him from purgatory. He failed Dean in that regard and his feelings of inadequacy prompt his statement that Dean needs to turn to angels and vampires instead of him. It's not so much a statement about the value of Dean's relationships than it is a statement about Sam's self-loathing.
    I think that deep down Sam may have some underlying, subconscious feelings of resentment and jealousy that he may not even be aware of or want to acknowledge or to have, born from the fact that he feels that others may have succeded better than him in being what his brother needs him to be. I'm not saying that it's a driving force in Sam, just that it may be there, among other complicated feelings.

    Anyway, I like your reading more because it makes me feel better about the character/scene, so I'll adopt it! LOL
    Last edited by Francy; 18-05-13 at 10:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregor View Post
    I guess I never saw Sam as being a self-loathing person, not in the same way that Dean is. (Osiris picked Dean, and Dean convicted himself. Not Sam.) I think it's pretty obvious that Dean has a lot of self-loathing, so I'll leave it at that regarding him.
    I agree to an extent. Sam has always been the one with a healthier sense of self and the capacity to move on from his own failures by striving to be better. Well, compared to Dean anyway. However, this season Dean came down full force on Sam for failing him. He not only expressed his anger at Sam not looking for him (which was justified), but also went back on his forgiveness for Sam's past failures (failures he long has atoned for) as well as his understanding of Sam's victimhood (during his soulless period). Basically he called the entire basis of their relationship these last 3 years in question and I think that hurt and unnerved Sam (and me) greatly.

    Quote Originally Posted by gregor View Post
    I ultimately felt unsatisfied with that speech because I didn't think it explained anything, really. Sam still hasn't really said (not to my satisfaction, anyway) why he didn't look for Dean. I don't know why, but it just felt off.
    Well, Sam will never explain to anyones satisfaction why he didn't look for Dean, because it was simply a contrived plot device to create an artifical conflict between the brothers. The writers had several opportunities during the season to allow Sam to explain himself, but they refused to take them all, because the moment Sam gives Dean a comprehensible reason, there is no conflict and hence no need for reconciliation. The writers sacrificed the integrity of Sam's character to create tension, it's simple as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    I just wish the writers stopped with the unneeded conflict between the brothers (and Cas, they are repeating the same pattern there), there has been enough in 8 seasons, and the angst this season was totally contrived. This is not what people want to see, everyone is sick of the jealousy drama/trust issues, and everyone (from what I read) would rather the guys just get along, work together, care for each other, and be united against external threats.
    Tell me about it! The worst thing is that the writers sacrificed all the development between the brothers of the past 3 seasons just because they didn't know how to move forward with their relationship. Carver emphasised that the brothers would mature this season, but the problem is that they already had matured in S5-7 and in order to allow them to grow up, AGAIN, the writers reset the brothers to a pre-S5 status and then developed them back to where they had already been before. With Castiel they did the same, just the other way around. They just brushed the conflict he had with Dean and Sam under the carpet and reestablished their friendship - only to have him regress and make the same foolish choices that created his conflict with the brothers in the first place. It's all immensely frustrating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    I'm glad that at least they allowed the brothers to have a confrontation, as long as next year they they move them forward, and not backwards to repeat the same patterns again and again!
    If there is another fraternal conflict in between now and the point when the show ends, I am going to throw things at my TV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    One of the main gripes I have with this season is that they never let Dean and Cas have a whole explicative/resolutive conversation, sort of like the Dean/sam one. They fabricate conflict, and then they don't resolve it, and just gloss over it!
    Well, you know how I feel about this issue. For me, S8 has forever destroyed the credibility of the friendship between Dean and Castiel. And in these past 2 episodes, the season also destroyed the little respect I had regained for Castiel as a character after he returned from purgatory. I have always tried to remain at least neutral towards the character, but S8 has pushed my limits and my patience has run out. S8 actually made me hate him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    I think that deep down Sam may have some underlying, subconscious feelings of resentment and jealousy that he may not even be aware of or want to acknowledge or to have, born from the fact that he feels that others may have succeded better than him in being what his brother needs him to be. I'm not saying that it's a driving force in Sam, just that it may be there, among other complicated feelings.
    I will not completely rule it out. Sam has become incredibly isolated these past couple of years; he doesn't even try anymore to strike up relationships with others - even his relationship Amelia was initiated by her - which I think is indicative for feelings of inadequacy as well. So I think it is not unreasonable to think that he sometimes wished he could as easily connect to people as Dean. Although I doubt that he has active feelings of resentment towards Dean's friends. He was the one who encouraged Dean to forgive Castiel, and he always gives Dean the time and space to bond with the people they meet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    Anyway, I like your reading more because it makes me feel better about the character/scene, so I'll adopt it! LOL
    Well, then my work here is done!
    Last edited by galathea; 18-05-13 at 11:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post

    Well, Sam will never explain to anyones satisfaction why he didn't look for Dean, because it was simply a contrived plot device to create an artifical conflict between the brothers. The writers had several opportunities during the season to allow Sam to explain himself, but they refused to take them all, because the moment Sam gives Dean a comprehensible reason, there is no conflict and hence no need for reconciliation. The writers sacrificed the integrity of Sam's character to create tension, it's simple as that.
    Indeed. This season came really close to making me hate Sam. In order not to, I have to take a step back and realize that it's the writers's fault and not hold it against the character.

    Tell me about it! The worst thing is that the writers sacrificed all the development between the brothers of the past 3 seasons just because they didn't know how to move forward with their relationship. Carver emphasised that the brothers would mature this season, but the problem is that they already had matured in S5-7 and in order to allow them to grow up, AGAIN, the writers reset the brothers to a pre-S5 status and then developed them back to where they had already been before. With Castiel they did the same, just the other way around. They just brushed the conflict he had with Dean and Sam under the carpet and reestablished their friendship - only to have him regress and make the same foolish choices that created his conflict with the brothers in the first place. It's all immensely frustrating.
    Because if they just let the characters behave like the adults they are instead of whiny brats or manchildren and have actual conversations, all the contrived drama/angst would be resolved in two seconds, and they wouldn't know how to continue the show since they can only write forced angst and conflict between the three. They don't seem to be able to write functioning, healthy interpersonal relationships.

    Once in a while they allow the brothers to have a partial confrontation (only to disregard it later again when they feel it's time for some more conflict), but they never do with Dean and Cas. All the build-up in the course of season 8 didn't have any satisfying resolution. I am DYING for some overdue long talk between the two on their several issues, but that never comes, and I'm growing more and more frustrated.


    Well, you know how I feel about this issue. For me, S8 has forever destroyed the credibility of the friendship between Dean and Castiel. And in these past 2 episodes, the season also destroyed the little respect I had regained for Castiel as a character after he returned from purgatory. I have always tried to remain at least neutral towards the character, but S8 has pushed my limits and my patience has run out. S8 actually made me hate him.
    That's... not good. What I said above about Sam holds here as well. It's all on the writers. I guess you are not well-inclined enough towards the character to rationalize that and try and make that distinction the way I do.

    As a Cas lover, I am rather dismayed by the turn this season has taken for his character, after the first part of the season had shown promise for growth, healing, redemption, and closeness to Dean (what happened to Sam and Cas interacting more this season?? I have seen none of it). All was swept away in the last 3/4 episodes.

    Some of the early Dean/Cas stuff was great, but then it got crapped over in the second part of the season when they chose to make it practically one-sided to play on Dean's abandonement issues and create even more stupid and unneeded drama (without ever having fully resolved the pre-existing one). We go from Dean breaking Cas free of Naomi's control, which is huge, only for that to never be addressed again and the relationship to be turned sour again. It's all so inconsistent, not to mention Cas's uneven characterization, which radically changes from writer to writer.

    I despair.

    Human Cas could be a disaster in the hands of these people, but I have to hope for the best, because Chuck help him, at this point I'm always going to love him even if he's killing babies, and as long as he's in this show I can't quit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    Human Cas could be a disaster in the hands of these people, but I have to hope for the best, because Chuck help him, at this point I'm always going to love him even if he's killing babies, and as long as he's in this show I can't quit.
    As you know I'm very wary of how human Castiel will be handled and do not expect it in itself to be a miracle cure for the issues I've been having with this show. However we do know from interviews that the writers have complained that due to how powerful Castiel was they often had to make him incapacitated or in conflict with the brothers to prevent things from being 'too easy'. With that no longer (for now) an issue perhaps the writers will finally allow more friendship scenes between Castiel and the brothers and true development of the character rather than the current take a step, one step back approach

    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    I agree to an extent. Sam has always been the one with a healthier sense of self and the capacity to move on from his own failures by striving to be better. Well, compared to Dean anyway. However, this season Dean came down full force on Sam for failing him. He not only expressed his anger at Sam not looking for him (which was justified), but also went back on his forgiveness for Sam's past failures (failures he long has atoned for) as well as his understanding of Sam's victimhood (during his soulless period). Basically he called the entire basis of their relationship these last 3 years in question and I think that hurt and unnerved Sam (and me) greatly.
    Exactly! I felt really sorry for Sam during the scene outside the church when Dean tossed back in his face things Sam had already atoned for through his sacrifice in Swan Song such as releasing Lucifer, or the more personal sins such as choosing Ruby over Dean by working closely with his brother and re-earning his respect over the last three years! The worst in my opinion was throwing soulless Sam in his face when Sam was the victim in that instance... That's twice Dean has done that now, the first being Southern Comfort of course and it makes me feel despite Dean's declaration that Sam comes first (we all know that by now ). That while he loves his brother above all does he truly forgive and respect him

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    I agree! I liked the scene itself (give me Dean/Cas scenes everytime! LOL ) but the timing was stupid. Another instance of stupid writing, like when Sam and Dean left Abbadon alone and she escaped, and countless other examples this season.

    Evidently they have scenes in mind and plot developments that they want to happen, but they can't make them happen naturally, so they bend the characters (dumb them up, make them act OOC etc) to get where they want to get. Lazy writing.
    I re-watched the episode this morning and I think in the wider context of the episode the writers purposely chose that timing. They of course wanted a conversation between Castiel and Dean and for me having Dean respond to the trials news with a "Oh you're closing the gates? Good for you. Bye now off you go... have a good life" would have been equally out of character... And so they made that need work within the context of Sam and Dean in that episode. They needed Dean to go off with Castiel so that he could be there for the revelation from Naomi of what was going to happen with Sam, they needed him to go off with Castiel so that we the audience could then see his utter panic at the prospect of Sam dying, the way he immediately drops everything else the heaven trials, angels being cast out of heaven be damned he wanted his little brother first and foremost.

    So ultimately when the writers wrote that I think on the one hand yes they wanted to fit in a Dean and Castiel conversation, but I don't think their reasoning for choosing that moment was about Dean picking Castiel over Sam. Rather they were using the Dean and Cas talk they needed anyway as a way of separating the two so that the end scene between the two could take place.

    Anyway, I like your reading more because it makes me feel better about the character/scene, so I'll adopt it! LOL
    Funnily enough I had similar issues to yourself with Sam's part of the speech at the end although for me since Sam has always encouraged Dean's relationships with others (except Benny) it felt like an out of character moment rather than a reason to be angry with Sam. So of course I like Chris' interpretation better also

    Quote Originally Posted by gregor View Post
    Did Naomi actually die? I somehow missed that. I thought she would have fallen like the other angels.
    When Castiel first appeared in her office in the scene where he lost his grace Naomi was shown her head lying on her desk surrounded by a pool of blood presumably dead. I'm not entirely sure but it looked as though Metatron used her own tool against her by literally drilling it into her head to the point it presumably killed her

    Quote Originally Posted by gregor View Post
    Yes, I agree that he was doing his for his own reasons and not to carry out God's divine will. I just happen to also think that if God was still around, he'd be A-OK with kicking all the angels out of Heaven. He tossed Lucifer out on his ass because... well according to the show, it's because he would not pay adequate homage to mankind, although that's not my understanding of what the reason was in Revelations. But whatever. So I certainly think God would be onboard with Metatron's decision, aside from the hubris of it.
    I think it's important with this show to let go of your own religious beliefs and just roll with how the writers use it in their own mythology Take Purgatory for example in true Catholic theology (I say Catholic as the main reformers such as Luther and Calvin deny the existence of Purgatory believing instead in 'Pre-Destination' and 'Double Pre-Destination') Purgatory is the place where those who are not ready to be in the presence of the father (heaven) atone for the mistakes of the past in order to one day be ready to come into the presence of the all-loving father. On supernatural they've simply made it into a place where monsters go after death... So yeah they aren't going with accuracy while incorporating Christianity into their mythology

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    - The melancholic Dean/Cas bar scene. I'm glad Dean's rage has boiled down a bit, and that Cas went to him for help (better late than never... even though I'm not very clear on why Dean was particularly needed here). We need more friendship and quiet scenes between these two... it can't just be angst and myth-arc related stuff all the time.
    I loved this scene it was nice to see the two actually get a moment to just chill and talk It was so sad to see Dean so dejected about Castiel presumably leaving him and I think it was something he resigned to as sadly as he pointed out in the previous episode Castiel always seems to leave him for what he assumes is the greater good

    - The gay couple being the target of Cupid's mission was sweet. Heaven-endorsed same-sex relationships.. how progressive of the show. If only they stopped queerbaiting, it would be even better.
    I didn't enjoy it at all! It just felt like it was a queer baiting moment for the Destiel fans. I mean these writers know what their fan base is like and how you'd have the more optimistic ones falling for the bait and as you know I hate queer baiting moments

    - That the brothers didn't complete the hell trials. I don't really have a problem with Dean choosing to save Sam over closing the gates of hell. It IS selfish, of course, but they are allowed to be selfish once in a while. They have already sacrificed enough for the world, why should they always be the ones to carry such a burden and die and suffer? There are 7 billion people in the world. BUT I have a problem with the season-long (or half season-long) trial arc coming to nothing at all, including the people (Meg, Benny, SARAH!!!!!! ) who died for nothing, just for Dean to stop Sam and say "nevermind, changed my mind. Abort abort!" They should have had something preventing Sam from completing the third trial, some external obstacle... Sam still wouldn't have died, and I wouldn't feel like the whole thing was such a cosmic waste of time.
    Yeah I feel sorry for the Benny and Meg fans now that the characters have just died for absolutely no reason at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikey121 View Post
    Does everyone still hate Naomi? I thought it was a shame she died, had some potential as kind of like a villain / non villain. Sure she was evil, she brainwashed a few Angels, killed those people in the cafe, but i felt that she did the right thing in the end, in her conversation with Castiel and Dean.
    I for one still hate Naomi but that's mostly due to the fact that I associate her with the heaven story-line they had for Castiel this season, which I absolutely loathe both for being a repetition of the characters past mistakes and for reducing angels into robots to be programmed . Also I did not buy Naomi's apparent change of heart in her last scene at all and think she was simply trying to manipulate Castiel to save her own ass!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    Indeed. This season came really close to making me hate Sam. In order not to, I have to take a step back and realize that it's the writers's fault and not hold it against the character.
    I know how that feels, only in my case that happened with Dean. I feel that by having Dean go back on his forgiveness for Sam's failures back in S4 and blame Sam for his soullessness in S6 the writers came as close to assassinating Dean's character for me as they will probably ever get. I really struggle hard with that part of Dean's characterisation this season and I, too, needed to take a step back and blame it on the writers instead of the character. Because I adore Dean and refuse to let the writers take that away from me. I don't have those problems with Sam, because I can take the little insight we do get in the first half of the season and find a way to rationalise Sam not looking for Dean, but overall I will never forgive the writers the way they treated both brothers in this season.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    Because if they just let the characters behave like the adults they are instead of whiny brats or manchildren and have actual conversations, all the contrived drama/angst would be resolved in two seconds, and they wouldn't know how to continue the show since they can only write forced angst and conflict between the three. They don't seem to be able to write functioning, healthy interpersonal relationships.
    See, I know that you disagree, but this is exactly why I prefer Gamble by far over Carver. Where the brothers are concerned, Gamble moved away from interpersonal conflict - even the Amy conflict in S7 was barely a blip on the radar - and instead started to focus on what their life had done to Sam and Dean as individuals. Look how mature and secure Sam and Dean are in their relationship at the end of S7 - and then see the mess Carver made of it. Man, I resent that so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    Once in a while they allow the brothers to have a partial confrontation (only to disregard it later again when they feel it's time for some more conflict), but they never do with Dean and Cas. All the build-up in the course of season 8 didn't have any satisfying resolution. I am DYING for some overdue long talk between the two on their several issues, but that never comes, and I'm growing more and more frustrated.
    I know. And for someone like me, who was never invested in Castiel in the first place, the writers treatment of the character basically ensured that I never will. If they had taken the time to organically move Dean and Castiel past their conflict by allowing them to confront their issues and re-bond, I am sure I would have taken those steps with Dean. But by simply claiming Dean and Castiel's conflict out of existence, they hollowed out their whole relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    That's... not good. What I said above about Sam holds here as well. It's all on the writers. I guess you are not well-inclined enough towards the character to rationalize that and try and make that distinction the way I do.
    Rationally I know that it is all on the writers, but the problem is that I have had these kinds of problems with Castiel from late S4 onward, when the writers refused to have Cas acknowledge that he let Sam out of the panic room. So his relationship with the brothers always felt like it is based on a lie of omission to me, and that is why I could never connect to the character. As I said above, with Dean it works to get past my problems by blaming it on the writers, because I always had a deep and abiding love for the character anway and the seven years of Dean characterisation prior to S8 just reduce parts of Dean's characterisation in S8 to absurdity (just like with Sam), but Castiel doesn't have that advantage. I don't like hating on characters, and I curse the writers for doing this to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    Human Cas could be a disaster in the hands of these people, but I have to hope for the best, because Chuck help him, at this point I'm always going to love him even if he's killing babies, and as long as he's in this show I can't quit.
    Heh, I know how that feels; I am the same with Sam. Anyway, human Castiel makes me extremely apprehensive. It has the potential to completely ruin the show for me, and knowing these writers, it probably will.
    Last edited by galathea; 19-05-13 at 11:26 AM.

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