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Thread: Marvel's Agents Of SHIELD

  1. #141
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    Not liking the split personality Fitz story line!

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    Quote Originally Posted by HowiMetdaSlayer View Post
    Not liking the split personality Fitz story line!
    It's the best one they've done this season. No one can now say that they don't follow up on the events of the Framework. There are no reset buttons.
    I just hope we see more of the effect that FW had on the other characters (May, Mack, Coulson). They all have memories of two different lives within them now.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    Just watched the episode. So well done. I especially liked Fitz listing British snack foods I liked the 'split personality' and think it fits with Fitz character, he is the most sensitive of them all so it seems fitting he'd manifest his 'other' self. I think the other characters are more integrated, while Fitz was so different from him Framework self.
    Never much cared for picket fences, anyway. Bloody dangerous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priceless View Post
    Just watched the episode. So well done. I especially liked Fitz listing British snack foods I liked the 'split personality' and think it fits with Fitz character, he is the most sensitive of them all so it seems fitting he'd manifest his 'other' self. I think the other characters are more integrated, while Fitz was so different from him Framework self.
    Fitz was the most different because he had his life changed from the earliest age - in real life, his father left when he was 10. In the Framework, his father was raising him, and his mother was not in the picture.

    Coulson's life was changed from college age (18-19?), when he refused Fury's invitation to join SHIELD. Mack's and May's changes were during their adulthood - the major ones having happened 11 and 9 years before, respectively.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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  6. #145
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    Never really bought the whole framework premise. Coulson's memories after he died were messed up with cause they had a machine literally operating on his brain.

  7. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by HowiMetdaSlayer View Post
    Never really bought the whole framework premise. Coulson's memories after he died were messed up with cause they had a machine literally operating on his brain.
    I'm not sure what you mean. You found one Sci-Fi plot about manipulating people's memories more 'realistic' than another SciFi plot about manipulating memories? Why?

    With the Framework, they had Coulson, May, Mack, Fitz and Mace - as well as Agnes and Radcliffe himself - plugged into a machine, and AIDA had scanned their brains before manipulating their memories.

    Anyway, I've always thought that with TAHITI, they had to operate on Coulson for hours because he had been dead for days and he would have had brain damage. Anyway, if that's not the case -if the procedure was shorter with the Framework, that's probably because Radcliffe was supposed to be a genius inventor, so his technology would be better than what SHIELD scientists were able to come up with.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

  8. #147
    Scooby Gang DanSlayer's Avatar
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    A good table-setting episode explaining the motives of the current antagonists and while you can understand Hale and Ruby they don't go into sympathetic territory. Talbot got broken down twice though, poor guy.

    Nice quick follow-up to the Daisy/Fitz fallout and telling him about Deke. It does seem like a smart way to have Fitz, Simmons and Elena take more risks since they subscribe to WHH but we know they have to break the loop so there's the tension of wil they lose someone in doing so. Although if it's being used to sidestep the emotional impact of what Fitz did on the marriage that seems a little easy.

    They just really love taunting people who wouldn't accept Ward killed the dog don't they?

    I don't know whether it's contrived or funny that they're hiding out in Hydra Hogwarts.

    I thought about Hale Hydra a little before Daisy said it.

    Fitz's reaction to his daughter's future was probably the best line though.

  9. #148
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    I am starting to think that Deke will cease the exist, if not die. The death will be of FitzSimmons' baby, so Deke will never have been born.

    Or something like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanSlayer View Post
    A good table-setting episode explaining the motives of the current antagonists and while you can understand Hale and Ruby they don't go into sympathetic territory. Talbot got broken down twice though, poor guy.

    Nice quick follow-up to the Daisy/Fitz fallout and telling him about Deke. It does seem like a smart way to have Fitz, Simmons and Elena take more risks since they subscribe to WHH but we know they have to break the loop so there's the tension of wil they lose someone in doing so. Although if it's being used to sidestep the emotional impact of what Fitz did on the marriage that seems a little easy.

    They just really love taunting people who wouldn't accept Ward killed the dog don't they?

    I don't know whether it's contrived or funny that they're hiding out in Hydra Hogwarts.

    I thought about Hale Hydra a little before Daisy said it.

    Fitz's reaction to his daughter's future was probably the best line though.
    I don't know why some people think that Ward didn't kill the dog - I've always thought it was clear in episode 1.21 that he did - but I also don't know how or why this episode, of all things, would convince them otherwise. It's not like it's anything new that Garrett ordered him to kill the dog. My only thought about this is "oh, so now it's supposed to be a Hydra thing, rather than just a Garrett thing". Which, I guess, can change our view of Garrett a little bit (I guess he was more of a company man than the rugged individualist he presented himself as?), but it's pretty irrelevant when it comes to Ward.

    The Hydra parts were really the best part of this episode, because everything went downhill the moment they came back to the team. Are they trying to make me hate as many of my favorite characters as possible?

    Fitz (who is normally on of my two favorite characters) was annoying as hell. He's completely acting like Framework Fitz now - in his attitude, even in his mannerisms.


    My favorite part of the team scenes was when Daisy quaked him, but she really should have done it a few more times. The worst part of this is that he's completely remorseless and insists he did the "right thing", and the narrative seems to be trying to make him look right and to make her look unreasonable for not being OK with what he did to her. I can already see all the "Fitz did the right thing! He had no choice!" folks, who have been annoying me on YouTube the entire last week, grabbing onto her line "Never" and using it as a justification for Fitz' actions. Which is utter garbage - it doesn't matter if she would have agreed or not, the point is that HE HAD TO ASK HER FIRST, and he can't say he had "no choice" when he never did what the first choice should have been - explain the situation, ask her and try to convince her. And secondly, her saying she would have never done it doesn't mean anything now, since we didn't see a reality where he explained the situation, asked her and tried to convince her, and she said no, rather than immediately going to "I'm going to knock her out and perform an invasive, painful procedure on her without her consent". But no doubt, this is going to be used to show how 'he was right', because Daisy is this unreasonable creature who can't be trusted to make informed decision, not even about things concerning her bodily autonomy - no, let's have Fitz make them for her, because he's so much wiser and more rational (that would be the guy who's suffered a psychotic break and had been talking to himself). Then the show is going to make her forgive him eventually, not because of the mental state he has been in, but because she's going to see that his decision was "right"? (And her, as the unreasonable creature she is would have never understood the importance of her powers for closing the rift if he had actually given her that info and asked her - but once her teammate has tortured her and violated her body for the greater good, she's going to 'see reason'!) Is that what they're setting up? Because that's utter BS.

    Things certainly don't bode well with the way everyone else is being OK with what Fitz did, and the way they let Fitz have the last word in their argument. I was happy Daisy at least still wasn't accepting his BS, but it's like they deliberately tried to make her case weaker by not having, for instance, point out to Fitz that HE SHOULD HAVE ASKED HER FIRST AND HE NEVER DID, and that he can't say he "didn't have a choice" when he never did that.

    I don't like Daisy going to find Robin, but May was incredibly hypocritical when she looked so shocked, after she has basically said she's OK with what Fitz did because it got results.

    And we also had Mack say Fitz was a "good guy" in the Framework? WTF??!! Worst line in an episode that had a lot of bad lines.

    Maybe they really should unite with Hydra. They're less and less difference between their methods, they may as well be Hydra now.

    Honestly, Coulson was the only one of the main characters who was well written in this episode.


    Bonus question:

    Who gave this speech:
    "Do you think it has been easy for me? Do you know how hard it has been? The sacrifices, the decisions I've had to make? But I made them, because that's what I do!"

    A: Grant Douglas Ward in episode 1.20 "Nothing Personal"?
    B: Leopold James Fitz in episode 5.15 "Rise and Shine"?
    C: Both of the above?
    D: A is technically correct, but C may as well be?
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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  12. #150
    Scooby Gang DanSlayer's Avatar
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    I agree with most of this although:

    And we also had Mack say Fitz was a "good guy" in the Framework? WTF??!! Worst line in an episode that had a lot of bad lines.
    Mack didn't mean that The Doctor was a good person, just that you can't write off their Framework selves as simply evil. He embraced his negative qualities as taught by his father, but the person Jemma loves was also there. Now in the real world he is her husband but he's still willing to cross those lines. It's basically the opposite of giving Angel a pass for things he did with no soul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanSlayer View Post
    I agree with most of this although:



    Mack didn't mean that The Doctor was a good person, just that you can't write off their Framework selves as simply evil. He embraced his negative qualities as taught by his father, but the person Jemma loves was also there. Now in the real world he is her husband but he's still willing to cross those lines. It's basically the opposite of giving Angel a pass for things he did with no soul.
    People don't have to be 'simply evil' for evil's sake to be bad guys. When you're doing bad things - like murdering innocent people, leading an oppressive regime, or persecuting and performing deadly experiments on innocent people just because of what DNA they have - you're a bad person. You're most definitely not a "good guy".

    That line seemed like Mack (i.e. the episode's writer) was trying to argue that Fitz is inherently good, even when he's doing awful things, as if to offset the idea that he's inherently bad, which Fitz thought he was (in 4.20 and 5.05), when both of these are wrong and completely missing the point. It's a complete misinterpretation of the Framework arc, which was obviously making the point (most obviously through Framework Fitz, Framework Ward, and Radcliffe's lines in episode 4.20 about how "under the right circumstances, anyone is capable of anything" and "one person, one moment, one sentence can change your entire life") that people aren't inherently good or bad, they have the capacity for either, but the circumstances, upbringing, experiences and their own choices make them go into one or the other direction. You may have "some goodness in you all along" (as Daisy said about real world Ward in 4.19) but that doesn't mean you're a good guy, when that potential gets lost, and you are doing bad things.

    I'm really tempted to quote Batman Begins... and I will, because it's a great quote: "It's not who you are inside, but your actions that define you". You have reasons and motivations that seem good to you? (Like 'saving the world' from the "Inhuman threat", protecting the woman you love etc.?) Most people who do terrible things do. It doesn't make them good people.

    We already knew that both the good Fitz and the Doctor are really Fitz. Fitz himself has pointed it out. Mack's line didn't sound like not giving Angel a pass for what he did with no soul, it was like saying "he was still a good guy with no soul".
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

  14. #152
    Scooby Gang DanSlayer's Avatar
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    Another strong entry. It could be considered relationship melodrama but it's not really about romance and fits with the characters. This whole Invincible Three (should be Four given may raises Robin) is definitely a great place to take the WHH route we're in for the time travel now. Though Sayid's effort to kill kid Ben actually got Sayid killed and then brought back as a warped servant of Ultimate Evil but I digress.

    When it spoke of Creel hearing "them" aging I thought the ooze maybe had it's own mind; and was slightly annoyed they just reused footage of Dr Hall as if they couldn't get the actor back. Well, we got two surprise returns in the tag that were kept of the press releases and everything! Between Hall, Ian and Ivanov, if we get a S6 I'd hope to see VJ Nadeer and Felix Blake again just to wrap up every loose end.

    So if they are still conscious in the ooze does that possibly mean Daisy or Ruby might have been inside the Lighthouse power source in the future?

    Little fast of Polly to be so accepting that Robin is closer to May. So Lance just disappeared again?

    So what comes first, Ruby betraying down Hale, the power being too much for Ruby or the aliens knocking Ruby down a few pegs?

  15. #153
    Scooby Gang DanSlayer's Avatar
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    Bit of a catchup:

    Flattest declaration of love in a Whdon show ever.

    Poor Fitz, benefits of losing your arms...not.

    Most traumatized in this story arc award goes to Talbot. Honestly thought he killed Polly or would shoot himself; and Robin knew it was coming too. Old Robin seemed to want to break the loop but kid Robin might have changed her mind once she saw her own death.

    Wasn't entirely sure how they knew Ivanov was dead forever like they said but if he could make any more LMD bodies for himself without Aida I guess Elena smashed the last one which would give his human head nothing to connect with...I guess.

    Really shocked at Elena killing Ruby though I like how they showed it from regular people's view of super-speed.

    They might have been going for a darker twist on the Daisy/Tripp power moment but I never really bought that she cared for Strucker. She just seemed to be using him or mimicking Fitzsimmons just to test what romantic affection might be like.
    Last edited by DanSlayer; 21-04-18 at 03:36 AM.

  16. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanSlayer View Post
    Bit of a catchup:

    Flattest declaration of love in a Whdon show ever.

    Poor Fitz, benefits of losing your arms...not.

    Most traumatized in this story arc award goes to Talbot. Honestly thought he killed Polly or would shoot himself; and Robin knew it was coming too. Old Robin seemed to want to break the loop but kid Robin might have changed her mind once she saw her own death.

    Wasn't entirely sure how they knew Ivanov was dead forever like they said but if he could make any more LMD bodies for himself without Aida I guess Elena smashed the last one which would give his human head nothing to connect with...I guess.

    Really shocked at Elena killing Ruby though I like how they showed it from regular people's view of super-speed.

    They might have been going for a darker twist on the Daisy/Tripp power moment but I never really bought that she cared for Strucker. She just seemed to be using him or mimicking Fitzsimmons just to test what romantic affection might be like.
    That was a really awesome May-like declaration of love. Best scene in a very weak episode (5.17).

    Ruby was clearly trying to mimic real love and affection with Werner, but how would she know what real love feels like? It probably felt real enough for her, who's never had friends or much of any normal human interaction.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

  17. #155
    Scooby Gang DanSlayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    That was a really awesome May-like declaration of love. Best scene in a very weak episode (5.17).

    Ruby was clearly trying to mimic real love and affection with Werner, but how would she know what real love feels like? It probably felt real enough for her, who's never had friends or much of any normal human interaction.
    True. I wasn't sure but it sounds like they meant her to be still an underage teenager so possibly young enough to change; although Daisy potentially wanting her to join the team seemed out of place.

  18. #156
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    Did not expect Talbot to become Gravitron he looked sinister and very Destroyer-like at the end there. If hes already unstable does that make it easier or worse for him to hear Quinn and Dr Hall?

    Poor Deke, he want to believe in the Dragonball multiverse but the others kinda want him to fade away to break the Lost Whatever Happened, Happened loop.

    They are dealing with emotional fallout well, although I do find it a bit hypocritical that Daisy is so upset about Ruby getting killed when she did the same thing to Donnie Gill. And of course May and the girl, and Coulson and Ward.

    While the nuclear lock-down and read the whole menu was funny, it is a little contrived for Coulson to slip up just out of stupidity.

    Poor Davis, commiserating that none of the main cast want to hear how he survived Aida with just 1 scar.

    Nice little callbacks to Jiaying and Garret in the subplot. Must be hard for Daisy to dig up her mother's grave.

    It looks like "I don't watch the news" about weirdness in NY might be the extend of our movie tie in.

  19. #157
    Bronze Party-Goer Fool for Buffy's Avatar
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    I've just discovered Chloe Bennet's "Uh Oh" Robin Sparkles ish experience and I'm gonna be watching that many many times. Also I'm finally almost caught up, and just in time- I've just seen the 100th and the FitzSimmons wedding. I'm so happy; I'm more emotionally attached to them than most tv couples I've ever seen, but I'm terrified that something will happen to them.
    Hello cutie

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  21. #158
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    What a great episode. They captured that claustrophobic feeling of being trapped so well, it was edge of your seat stuff, the lighting and sound were perfect. Little bit in love with Talbot now, the crazy bastard

    I get why Fitz wants Deke gone, but does he have to be so mean about it?
    Never much cared for picket fences, anyway. Bloody dangerous.

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  23. #159
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    So is Talbot going to be 'the destroyer of worlds'?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HowiMetdaSlayer View Post
    So is Talbot going to be 'the destroyer of worlds'?
    He's a dead ringer for Gravitron in the comics, I'm a little mad at myself for not seeing it before once he got all unkempt as Hale's prisoner.

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