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Thread: 8x22 Clip Show

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    Aaaaaargh! I am so torn between this episode being good and hating it for ripping my heart out.

    After watching Tommy be destroyed, I was quite upset at the loss even though the Winchesters gave him 8 years. I gasped aloud to see Taylor Cole's name in the credits because I knew it was more likely be sad than a happy reunion. Her scene had so much emotional power that it wouldnt have if they had tried to bring someone else back. I always wanted her to return but now knowing she isnt out there just living her life leaves an emptiness in me.

    On another note it was great to see Alaina Huffman back as Abaddon. I still would love for her to be a reoccuring character. I am intrigued how the curing a demon would work. Her reaction to Crowley being King of Hell was priceless. So that my got my mind a turning whether curing a demon would keep her alive. She would have the knowledge of the girl she possessed so having someone who knows about the Men of Letters and their grandfather might be interesting. On a random superficial note, I loved the smeared makeup they did on her. But now she has escaped and removed the bullet, the demon will most likely find a new host that hasnt been stitched together.

    I was extremely disappointed about the first trial to close heaven was to kill the waitress. I had been excited about what Metatron might bring to the team. But having Cas kill an innocent is no way to get him back into Dean's good graces. *sigh* I always enjoy nephilim stories so I was bummed there was only one on all of earth. And then extra mad the show had to go kill her. Why does this show always kill interesting possible storylines?

    I hate that there is only one more episode left before the hiatus. But omg, this next episode cannot come fast enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ehlwyen View Post
    Aaaaaargh! I am so torn between this episode being good and hating it for ripping my heart out.
    I'm voting for the latter. Once again this show reintroduces a likeable character only to kill her off, how original! The whole episode was so depressing and personally I'm glad that this season will be over soon. The second half of season 8 was certainly better than the first but even in the second half there have been quite a few sucky episodes. Last week's episode was a snoozefest IMO and this week's episode was depressing and frustrating so I'm not exactly pumped for the season finale.

    After watching Tommy be destroyed, I was quite upset at the loss even though the Winchesters gave him 8 years. I gasped aloud to see Taylor Cole's name in the credits because I knew it was more likely be sad than a happy reunion. Her scene had so much emotional power that it wouldnt have if they had tried to bring someone else back. I always wanted her to return but now knowing she isnt out there just living her life leaves an emptiness in me.
    Agreed! I liked that they did the whole flashback to season 1 thing at first but killing characters off that the Winchesters have saved over the years seems unnecessarily cruel on the writers' part.

    On another note it was great to see Alaina Huffman back as Abaddon. I still would love for her to be a reoccuring character. I am intrigued how the curing a demon would work. Her reaction to Crowley being King of Hell was priceless. So that my got my mind a turning whether curing a demon would keep her alive. She would have the knowledge of the girl she possessed so having someone who knows about the Men of Letters and their grandfather might be interesting.
    You are right, that would be interesting. However, I have no faith whatsoever in these writers so I doubt they even considered that.

    And can I just say that I have rarely seen the boys being so careless and downright stupid around a demon. I mean, would it have been so much trouble to at least put a devil's trap on the floor and/or tie Abaddon up with those freaky chains from their dungeon? They put way too much faith in that devil's trap bullet to keep Abaddon in place. It really bugs the hell out of me when the boys do such stupid stuff.

    I was extremely disappointed about the first trial to close heaven was to kill the waitress. I had been excited about what Metatron might bring to the team. But having Cas kill an innocent is no way to get him back into Dean's good graces. *sigh*
    Yes I don't trust Metatron one bit now, he is an angel after all so he is bound to have an ulterior motive. I'm so sick and tired of all these scheming angels! And yes I might not be a Castiel fan but having him once again kill innocents for the bigger picture (and Cas falling for Metatron's plan that easily) feels repetitive and unoriginal, as if the writers had no idea what else they could do with the character, which they probably don't.

    I have seen people online complain about Dean's attitude towards Cas in this episode, that he was way too hard on him and that it didn't make sense. I disagree with this obviously. IMO Dean was perfectly justified to feel hurt and pissed off over Castiel's disappearance. This was not the first time after all that Dean has been betrayed by Cas so Castiel should really have known that he couldn't just fix everything with a simple "I'm sorry". Dean told him that he needed him and that he considers him family and in return Cas grabs the angel tablet and just leaves and ignores the boys for I don't know how long. Of course Dean is gonna be hurt and pissed off!

    That being said, I did like that Cas tried to do something nice for Dean by buying all his favourite things, that was kinda cute.

    I always enjoy nephilim stories so I was bummed there was only one on all of earth. And then extra mad the show had to go kill her. Why does this show always kill interesting possible storylines?
    I know right? I got so excited when I heard the word "nephilim" being a big fan of The Mortal Instruments series and other nephilim stories (although I had no idea that's how you pronounce it in English, I always said it differently in my head ) and thought that could make for a gripping storyline. But of course like with everything else in this episode the writers disappointed me in this regard as well and made me very mad at this wasted opportunity. At least they made the nephilim girl out to be an excellent fighter, which fits with most nephilim stories I have read. But having her being the only nephilim on earth and killing her off like that? Just no!

    The ending made me roll my eyes so hard! Another deal with a demon, Sam? Have the last few years of your life really taught you nothing? You cannot trust Crowley to honour this deal! I get that Sam was distraught over Sarah's death (so was I) but Dean is right, they need to stick with their original plan. I guess I get now what Carver meant about the last trial being a team effort between Sam and Dean. Sam has doubts now and seems to have lost hope that he will be able to complete the third trial, hell he doesn't even know if he should try to tackle the third trial. So luckily he has Dean to encourage him and prop him up. I still wish that Dean had a more active role in the mytharc than just being Sam's cheerleader but maybe he will play a significant role in the season finale. A Dean fangirl can dream, can't she?

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    I try to be spoilerfree but sometimes I cant escape hearing some of the words of the next weeks preview. So I did know that Crowley was killing off the people the Winchesters saved. (See why I am paranoid about spoilers! They like to give away things that happen midway through an ep! ) So maybe I had time to process how this was a strong move by Crowley. It definitely gave me shades of What Is and What Should Never Be when Dean realized all the people he had saved had never been saved. I do appreciate that the show was able to dig at that very poignant spot.

    I am not happy about who was brought back and killed but they managed to choose two people I had a stong emotional connection too. While the other girl Jenny, I barely remembered her from S7 and only after they showed flashbacks. Therefore had no reaction to her death. I really really thought that Sarah was going to saved so part of me appreciates being surprised. Ugh, it is not like the show was going to have Sam meet up with her again and be his girlfriend. They could have done that at the beginning of the year instead of wasting it on Amanda. I guess I am glad that the show thought enough of Sarah to bring her back for a brief reconcilitation rather than continue to think she doesnt exist. I am glad they gave her a humanizing story that she had married and had a child and at least lived a little bit. Same with Tommy, I loved that they showed he was extremely reluctant to enter the woods, chose a structure rather than a flimsy tent, and packed all the gear to fight a wendigo.

    The show sucks at killing some people too soon and letting some people stay around for too long. I was tired of Crowley and glad when he was killed in the middle of S6. And here we are at the end of s8. Please let finishing this trial end Crowley rather than just keep him separated from Hell resources.

    I didnt know that was how nephilim was pronounced either. I had to rewind it twice and finally put on the closed captioning to figure out he was saying. (I dont know, they say Abaddon weird too.) LOL, I forgot that is what they were in Mortal Instruments. I should catch up on the series.

    Well, I guess I can understand that the trials to cut off Hell would counter with good acts so the reverse could be true in having to do vile things for Heaven. There is no way the show was going to make Dean do these things so I sympathize with Castiel. Honestly, I think I am more disgusted with Cas killing the angel last week who was working with Crowley because he couldnt stand Naomi. It felt quite hypocritical. At least the encounter with the nephilim he may have only had intentions to learn more about her and then was cornered into choosing between her and Metatron. Both incidents suck. Why cant the show have more reoccurring characters?!

    I was torn trying to decide if I thought Metatron had an ulterior motive or if he is just clueless. For living with humans and stories for so long, I would have thought he would have had more compassion and a better moral compass. I guess he was more isolated and accustomed living in fantasy worlds than to be socially adjusted. I do hate the idea that he turned his back on family for millenia and now is obsessed with knowing what is best for the family. :/

    Yeah, Cas trying to buy Dean's favorite things was adorable. Well until he started making a mess for the clerk and then threatening him. Cas has been on earth with the Winchesters for almost five years, he shouldnt have been so out of place in the store.

    Seriously, what is the point of discovering a dungeon if they werent going to use it?! And at the very least putting up another devil's trap or watching their prisoner. So dumb! But it was a fun scene with the hand creeping out of the box.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post
    Agreed! I liked that they did the whole flashback to season 1 thing at first but killing characters off that the Winchesters have saved over the years seems unnecessarily cruel on the writers' part.
    Agreed! Although it was certainly a poignant way of upping the ante for the finale and in a sense makes me take Crowley seriously for the first time in a long while as he managed to get to the root of what makes Sam and Dean tick and use it against them to weaken their resolve as shown by Sam's words at the end

    Yes I don't trust Metatron one bit now, he is an angel after all so he is bound to have an ulterior motive. I'm so sick and tired of all these scheming angels! And yes I might not be a Castiel fan but having him once again kill innocents for the bigger picture (and Cas falling for Metatron's plan that easily) feels repetitive and unoriginal, as if the writers had no idea what else they could do with the character, which they probably don't.

    I have seen people online complain about Dean's attitude towards Cas in this episode, that he was way too hard on him and that it didn't make sense. I disagree with this obviously. IMO Dean was perfectly justified to feel hurt and pissed off over Castiel's disappearance. This was not the first time after all that Dean has been betrayed by Cas so Castiel should really have known that he couldn't just fix everything with a simple "I'm sorry". Dean told him that he needed him and that he considers him family and in return Cas grabs the angel tablet and just leaves and ignores the boys for I don't know how long. Of course Dean is gonna be hurt and pissed off!

    That being said, I did like that Cas tried to do something nice for Dean by buying all his favourite things, that was kinda cute.
    I agree with all of this!

    It is absolutely ridiculous for the writers to go down this route again with Castiel especially after the damaging retcon they applied to the character in last weeks episode... At this point the writers have made things so that the only way I can actually see Castiel is that he is either a) destined to be a truly dark and evil character who is in denial of his destiny as every time he goes off on his own it results in him killing innocents i.e. the end of season six and now, or b) He has to be one of the dumbest characters that have ever been shown on television. Which of course is why I've chosen to quit after this season is over as when I find myself faced with such uncharitable ways of viewing a character I love then I know it's time for me to go

    In regards to Dean's anger with Castiel I agree with you entirely Dean's anger was justified and even as a fan of their friendship I would have been annoyed had Dean just treated Cas as though everything was OK. In fact that was one of the things that disappointed me about Goodbye Stranger that there was not more anger on Dean's end and my reason for feeling this way is that I feel Dean and Cas really need to have a full blown confrontation to clear the air before their friendship can grow on and develop.

    And of course I also found the shopping scene cute

    So luckily he has Dean to encourage him and prop him up. I still wish that Dean had a more active role in the mytharc than just being Sam's cheerleader but maybe he will play a significant role in the season finale. A Dean fangirl can dream, can't she?
    Hey getting a role in the mytharc isn't all it's cracked up to be! For instance many Dean fans wanted him to be the one to close the gates of heaven, be grateful the show isn't making him the one having to kill an innocent

    Quote Originally Posted by Ehlwyen View Post
    Well, I guess I can understand that the trials to cut off Hell would counter with good acts so the reverse could be true in having to do vile things for Heaven. There is no way the show was going to make Dean do these things so I sympathize with Castiel. Honestly, I think I am more disgusted with Cas killing the angel last week who was working with Crowley because he couldnt stand Naomi. It felt quite hypocritical. At least the encounter with the nephilim he may have only had intentions to learn more about her and then was cornered into choosing between her and Metatron. Both incidents suck. Why cant the show have more reoccurring characters?!
    Unfortunately I really don't think there is any way to interpret Castiel's motives in that scene as being anything other than following her to kill her! For one he is quite clearly seen walking behind her alongside Metatron with his angel blade in hand and secondly there was this exchange before the nephilim attacked the two of them in order to defend herself

    Nephilim: "Please, I'm not... I try to be nice. I just wanna live my life."
    Castiel: "We know. I am sorry."
    And he then takes a step towards her prompting her to go into attack mode. Sadly there is nothing about that build up that suggests he was there for any reason besides completing the first of the trials required to close the gates of heaven.

    Yeah, Cas trying to buy Dean's favorite things was adorable. Well until he started making a mess for the clerk and then threatening him. Cas has been on earth with the Winchesters for almost five years, he shouldnt have been so out of place in the store.
    To be fair though has Castiel actually done something as ordinary as shopping? Due to the writers generally choosing to use Castiel in a mytharc capacity most of his episodes are usually very heavy in drama and leave little time for them to do such regular, human things together! The most human thing I can really think of is Dean taking Castiel to a strip bar
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    People in general seem to have loved this episode... I can see why, in a sense... it had action, nostalgia, drama, loss, angst, etc It had everything, in theory. But it almost made me want to quit the show! Now I'm a bit better, a few hours later, but at first I was so upset!

    One thing I'm really angry about is that they killed Sarah. I was spoiled weeks ago about her return, and like everyone else I was thrilled and I was looking forward to it, given that I have always really liked her (and I would have loved if Sam ended up with her. Yeah, right). I'm still so naive, I should have known that they would have brought her back for 5 minutes just to kill her off. Eff you, show. I hate you. No one wanted this, yet I shouldn't be surprised since the writers seem to not know in the slightest what the viewers want. Everything must be bleak and hopeless, because that's the only thing they seem to be able to write, and most of the fandom is sick of this game.

    RIP also the Wendigo guy and Jenny.

    Except for the Sarah thing that I will NEVER forgive the show for, I thought the whole Crowley-is-killing-everyone-they-ever-saved thing was interesting, and Crowley was finally very effective as the big bad.

    If Sarah wasn't enough, this episode broke my heart and stomped upon it with the Dean/Cas situation, which I can't take anymore. The whole season 6 fiasco hasn't been properly addressed/dealt with, which is what they should have done in season 8. Instead of healing and rebuilding the Dean/Cas bond in a organic way they jumped directly to Dean having forgiven Cas and being all needy, with Cas conveniently disappearing all the time (also, you can't drop the "I might kill myself" bomb and never revisit it... these writers suck). Bad decision on Cas's part after bad decision, we are back where we were (and worse), after a season that so far looked great for Dean/Cas... so this is even more upsetting for me. Dean is rightfully angry with Cas, and hurt. He has every right to be. I am left to wonder if this relationship is even salvageable... how is Dean ever going to trust Castiel again?? Are they setting up the two of them being adversaries again in season 9? I'm not here for that, I don't want it, and I'm sick of the angst.

    I'm sick of Cas always messing up, I'm sick of Cas always having to fight for redemption/forgiveness just to mess up again, I'm sick of the fights and the distance between him and the brothers. I'm sick of the misery... if the world sucks, demons and angels suck, if everything is harsh and hopeless at least let these 3 be a united front. At least Sam is trying to be supportive, bless him.

    I'm also sick of Castiel being portrayed as a clown/child/idiot/joke/choosetheoptionyoulikebest. Everyone is squeeing at how cute the scene with Cas shopping for Dean was.... I appreciate the sentiment behind it, but that scene was so embarassing/cringeworthy. Cas has been around long enough to know how to behave. It was cute at the beginning, but now it's just stupid. All the other angels have no problems understanding human behaviour (even if they judge it beneath them), so I don't appreciate making Castiel the Angel of the Lord (I miss season 4 Cas and his solemnity and dignity so much) the village idiot season after season.

    I am depressed.

    About the mytharc... Sam gets the demon trials. Cas gets the angel trials. Dean.. bakes and cleans the batcave. As much as I love Cas and I appreciate the attempt to give him a storyline of his own, the angel trials should have gone to Dean, and Cas should have been at his side, supporting him. Many Dean fans are beyond angry, and with reason.

    Wrt the angel trials... I don't trust Metatron. I think Cas is being manipulated and lead astray again. I hope to God no, but since we can never have nice things and the show likes to be repetitive, I think this is what's happening.

    The concept of the nephilim is one I would have liked to see explored more, but of course whenever they have a cool character/cool idea they kill it off immediately.

    The boys were really stupid in this episode.. they find out they have a dungeon with chains and demons traps and all in the batcave, and they don't bring Abbadon there to try and "cure" her??? Such lazy writing... i like the actress playing Abbadon, so I'm interested to see what they do with this character.

    Wow, am I negative or what! LOL I don't want to be, but nothing this show does seems to work for me anymore.

    It was a good episode strictly speaking, considering the general quality of the show at the moment, but it just happened to have developments that upset me greatly!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ehlwyen View Post
    I try to be spoilerfree but sometimes I cant escape hearing some of the words of the next weeks preview. So I did know that Crowley was killing off the people the Winchesters saved. (See why I am paranoid about spoilers! They like to give away things that happen midway through an ep! ) So maybe I had time to process how this was a strong move by Crowley. It definitely gave me shades of What Is and What Should Never Be when Dean realized all the people he had saved had never been saved. I do appreciate that the show was able to dig at that very poignant spot.
    I was completely unspoiled so Crowley's plan was a shock to me. I agree that it is a cunning plan on Crowley's part but seeing Sarah and Tommy die after all the Winchesters had done to save them just broke my heart. Good point about What Is And What Should Never Be!

    I am not happy about who was brought back and killed but they managed to choose two people I had a stong emotional connection too. While the other girl Jenny, I barely remembered her from S7 and only after they showed flashbacks. Therefore had no reaction to her death.
    Yes I didn't remember her either. Was she in the episode that Charisma and James were in? It's been a while since I have watched season 7.

    I really really thought that Sarah was going to saved so part of me appreciates being surprised. Ugh, it is not like the show was going to have Sam meet up with her again and be his girlfriend. They could have done that at the beginning of the year instead of wasting it on Amanda.
    Oh man, that would have been so much better than the horrible Samelia storyline!

    I guess I am glad that the show thought enough of Sarah to bring her back for a brief reconcilitation rather than continue to think she doesnt exist. I am glad they gave her a humanizing story that she had married and had a child and at least lived a little bit. Same with Tommy, I loved that they showed he was extremely reluctant to enter the woods, chose a structure rather than a flimsy tent, and packed all the gear to fight a wendigo.
    Agreed!

    The show sucks at killing some people too soon and letting some people stay around for too long. I was tired of Crowley and glad when he was killed in the middle of S6. And here we are at the end of s8. Please let finishing this trial end Crowley rather than just keep him separated from Hell resources.
    Same here! I'm so over Crowley, all he does nowadays is annoy me. Please SN writers find a new big bad for season 9, this one has gone stale.

    I didnt know that was how nephilim was pronounced either. I had to rewind it twice and finally put on the closed captioning to figure out he was saying. (I dont know, they say Abaddon weird too.) LOL, I forgot that is what they were in Mortal Instruments. I should catch up on the series.
    You should, it's a fun read.

    Yeah, Cas trying to buy Dean's favorite things was adorable. Well until he started making a mess for the clerk and then threatening him. Cas has been on earth with the Winchesters for almost five years, he shouldnt have been so out of place in the store.
    Well I admit when Cas threatened the clerk and demanded pie, I had to chuckle. It was one of the lighter scenes in a very dark episode so I appreciated that.

    Seriously, what is the point of discovering a dungeon if they werent going to use it?! And at the very least putting up another devil's trap or watching their prisoner. So dumb! But it was a fun scene with the hand creeping out of the box.
    I know right? I hate it when the writers dumb down the boys. But yeah the hand scene was kinda fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    I agree with all of this!

    It is absolutely ridiculous for the writers to go down this route again with Castiel especially after the damaging retcon they applied to the character in last weeks episode... At this point the writers have made things so that the only way I can actually see Castiel is that he is either a) destined to be a truly dark and evil character who is in denial of his destiny as every time he goes off on his own it results in him killing innocents i.e. the end of season six and now, or b) He has to be one of the dumbest characters that have ever been shown on television. Which of course is why I've chosen to quit after this season is over as when I find myself faced with such uncharitable ways of viewing a character I love then I know it's time for me to go
    Yes I understand how those options are not very appealing to you at all.

    In regards to Dean's anger with Castiel I agree with you entirely Dean's anger was justified and even as a fan of their friendship I would have been annoyed had Dean just treated Cas as though everything was OK. In fact that was one of the things that disappointed me about Goodbye Stranger that there was not more anger on Dean's end and my reason for feeling this way is that I feel Dean and Cas really need to have a full blown confrontation to clear the air before their friendship can grow on and develop.
    Yes! This so much. I have been waiting for Dean and Cas to have a full blown confrontation for years now and it still hasn't happened. There are so many trust issues between them that they should really talk about if they ever want to have a chance of saving their friendship. Of course if/when Dean finds out what Cas has done now (killing another innocent), this might be the straw that broke the camel's back. The way the Cas storyline has been going this season it would not necessarily surprise me if Dean and Cas are antagonists next season.

    Hey getting a role in the mytharc isn't all it's cracked up to be! For instance many Dean fans wanted him to be the one to close the gates of heaven, be grateful the show isn't making him the one having to kill an innocent
    Well when you put it like that ... Still, it annoys me more and more that all the mytharc stuff is almost always focused on Sam and that Carver doesn't seem to respect Dean as a character at all (judging from those interviews Francy posted).

    Unfortunately I really don't think there is any way to interpret Castiel's motives in that scene as being anything other than following her to kill her! For one he is quite clearly seen walking behind her alongside Metatron with his angel blade in hand and secondly there was this exchange before the nephilim attacked the two of them in order to defend herself

    And he then takes a step towards her prompting her to go into attack mode. Sadly there is nothing about that build up that suggests he was there for any reason besides completing the first of the trials required to close the gates of heaven.
    Agreed! Cas seems to have made up his mind about going through with Metatron's plan before they followed the nephilim girl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post
    Yes I didn't remember her either. Was she in the episode that Charisma and James were in? It's been a while since I have watched season 7.
    She was indeed She worked as an assistant to James' character and the brothers were convinced for a while that they were having an affair. Then it led to the comical scene of her being grossed out because he was old

    Same here! I'm so over Crowley, all he does nowadays is annoy me. Please SN writers find a new big bad for season 9, this one has gone stale.
    Agreed! This thread should be enshrined as a miraculous event for all the times I'm posting that to you

    Yes! This so much. I have been waiting for Dean and Cas to have a full blown confrontation for years now and it still hasn't happened. There are so many trust issues between them that they should really talk about if they ever want to have a chance of saving their friendship. Of course if/when Dean finds out what Cas has done now (killing another innocent), this might be the straw that broke the camel's back. The way the Cas storyline has been going this season it would not necessarily surprise me if Dean and Cas are antagonists next season.
    Well if they went down the antagonist route I would definitely know I made the right choice to quit when I have But one thing that I really appreciated is that as in Reading is Fundamental Sam was willing to offer Castiel sympathy and forgiveness. I really like the fact that Sam has such loyalty towards him and they both have that connection of having made grievous mistakes in the past they need to atone for. Of course the show actually allowed Sam to learn from said mistakes instead of falling into a loop of making them again and again
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    She was indeed She worked as an assistant to James' character and the brothers were convinced for a while that they were having an affair.
    Thanks, good to know that I haven't completely forgotten everything. Despite James and Charisma, I didn't really care much for that episode and haven't rewatched it many times.

    Then it led to the comical scene of her being grossed out because he was old
    Ah yes, poor James!

    Agreed! This thread should be enshrined as a miraculous event for all the times I'm posting that to you
    It is a miracle indeed!

    Well if they went down the antagonist route I would definitely know I made the right choice to quit when I have
    Yes as a Destiel fan, you would certainly not enjoy watching that. I guess it depends on what's happening between Dean and Cas in the season finale and whether Dean will even find out about Cas' latest misdeed (*is still bitter that the writers never addressed Cas letting Sam out of the panic room at the end of season 4*).

    But one thing that I really appreciated is that as in Reading is Fundamental Sam was willing to offer Castiel sympathy and forgiveness. I really like the fact that Sam has such loyalty towards him and they both have that connection of having made grievous mistakes in the past they need to atone for.
    Agreed but then again Sam and Cas were never as close as Dean and Cas were so it's understandable that Dean would be less willing to just forgive and forget (especially after being pummeled by Cas the last time they saw each other) and feels much more hurt and betrayed than Sam ever could.

    Of course the show actually allowed Sam to learn from said mistakes instead of falling into a loop of making them again and again
    Well I'm not sure how much Sam has actually learned from his mistakes if he is willing to make a deal with Crowley. But yes, on the whole you are right, Sam was certainly given the chance to atone and better himself. Carver & co. have really managed to character assassinate Cas.

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    Gamble character-assassinated Cas; so far Carver and co haven't.

    But they clearly don't know how to handle the character in a coherent way, the writing for him is all over the place.

    It doesn't help that they refuse to let him have free will/agency, and they keep messing with his head. This way the character is unreliable and untrustworthy... a plot device more than a real character.

    I would hope for the future, but I've learnt that it's better not to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    It is absolutely ridiculous for the writers to go down this route again with Castiel especially after the damaging retcon they applied to the character in last weeks episode... At this point the writers have made things so that the only way I can actually see Castiel is that he is either a) destined to be a truly dark and evil character who is in denial of his destiny as every time he goes off on his own it results in him killing innocents i.e. the end of season six and now, or b) He has to be one of the dumbest characters that have ever been shown on television. Which of course is why I've chosen to quit after this season is over as when I find myself faced with such uncharitable ways of viewing a character I love then I know it's time for me to go
    I disagree on your a/b assessment. I dont see him as evil.

    The dilemma of the good of one over that of many is a constant debate. Castiel is often caught in this choice and often chooses that of sacrificing a few in order to try to help many.

    In addition, as an angel Castiel has a different perspective than humans. Killing humans is not killing his own kind. Angels consider human like animals. So an angel killing a human is similar to a human killing another animal. Not good, but not the egregious act of murdering one's own kind. It is messed up, but the fact that Castiel often is able to see through the human perspective makes his character unique but conflicted. Not dumb. The nephilim is an abomination half creature to the angel's perspective not even to be as respected as a humans are.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit
    Unfortunately I really don't think there is any way to interpret Castiel's motives in that scene as being anything other than following her to kill her! For one he is quite clearly seen walking behind her alongside Metatron with his angel blade in hand and secondly there was this exchange before the nephilim attacked the two of them in order to defend herself

    And he then takes a step towards her prompting her to go into attack mode. Sadly there is nothing about that build up that suggests he was there for any reason besides completing the first of the trials required to close the gates of heaven.
    I had not recalled all that from my first viewing but I did go back to rewatch. Cas was there to do it, but he had not decided that he would do it.

    Castiel seemed to be going through the motions in having the weapon out and what he says. His face says another story of how conflicted he was. Especially when she says she just wants to live her life. Even when he advances he doesnt have the weapon in a position of attack. She easily tosses him and he seems surprised she would attack. He only decides to attack her when she goes for the kill on Metatron.

    None of it is justifiable, but still, it shows a more dynamic character than one who simply went to sacrifice the nephilim.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit
    To be fair though has Castiel actually done something as ordinary as shopping? Due to the writers generally choosing to use Castiel in a mytharc capacity most of his episodes are usually very heavy in drama and leave little time for them to do such regular, human things together! The most human thing I can really think of is Dean taking Castiel to a strip bar
    Cas lived as human for half a year in S7. Surely he did some normal human things then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy
    One thing I'm really angry about is that they killed Sarah. I was spoiled weeks ago about her return, and like everyone else I was thrilled and I was looking forward to it, given that I have always really liked her (and I would have loved if Sam ended up with her. Yeah, right). I'm still so naive, I should have known that they would have brought her back for 5 minutes just to kill her off. Eff you, show. I hate you. No one wanted this, yet I shouldn't be surprised since the writers seem to not know in the slightest what the viewers want. Everything must be bleak and hopeless, because that's the only thing they seem to be able to write, and most of the fandom is sick of this game.
    I dont know how I would have handled being excited for her return for weeks and then this. My sympathies to you for getting your hopes up. I would have spun the same excited future for her only to have it crushed by her brief scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy
    About the mytharc... Sam gets the demon trials. Cas gets the angel trials. Dean.. bakes and cleans the batcave. As much as I love Cas and I appreciate the attempt to give him a storyline of his own, the angel trials should have gone to Dean, and Cas should have been at his side, supporting him. Many Dean fans are beyond angry, and with reason.
    As a Dean fan, I am glad he doesnt have to be paired with the angels while Sam is paired with demons. It was an interesting concept back in the first few seasons, but it was overwrought by S5. I prefer Dean's dynamic when dealing with monsters. So I am hoping they are working towards a monster trial-esque storyline for their final arc after the demon and angel trials.

    I think Cas owes a lot to the angels so I like when he gets anything to do with them. I have been very disappointed about how S6 dealt so little with the civil wars and then how the end of S7/start of s8 brought up how Cas had supporters and then did nothing but get those angels killed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ehlwyen View Post

    I dont know how I would have handled being excited for her return for weeks and then this. My sympathies to you for getting your hopes up. I would have spun the same excited future for her only to have it crushed by her brief scene.
    Yeah, maybe I should stop reading spoilers.... but then I don't want to ever be kicked in the gut like at the end of season 6. I need to know what to expect (and sometimes it still isn't enough), but there's also a downside to being spoiled: false expectations, like ths one with Sarah. Of course, I am not completely stupid and I knew this was a big possibility, but I hoped for a different outcome.


    As a Dean fan, I am glad he doesnt have to be paired with the angels while Sam is paired with demons. It was an interesting concept back in the first few seasons, but it was overwrought by S5. I prefer Dean's dynamic when dealing with monsters. So I am hoping they are working towards a monster trial-esque storyline for their final arc after the demon and angel trials.

    I think Cas owes a lot to the angels so I like when he gets anything to do with them. I have been very disappointed about how S6 dealt so little with the civil wars and then how the end of S7/start of s8 brought up how Cas had supporters and then did nothing but get those angels killed.
    You are in the minority, as far as I can tell from what I have been reading in several places. I (and all the other people who want Dean to have more to do) don't want him to be necessarily involved with the angel stuff. We want some kind of storyline where he is the driving force of the action (given that he is the best hunter out there), and him not to be reduced to just fussing/worrying about Sam for the gazillionth season, or fuming over Cas, or cooking.

    It's established tht Dean is the emotional centre/supportive role in the show, but every once in a while it would be nice to mix things around a bit and change the dynamic, but the writers seems to not be able to move away from their repetitive patterns.

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  15. #12
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    Well it seems the general audience liked last nights episode

    It got 2.07 million viewers and a 1.0 in the demo!
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    I thought it was a pretty good episode.

    I haven't seen the first season in a while though so I didn't really remember "Wendigo" all that well and I don't remember Sarah at all, so I looked it up and I do vaguely remember the episode at the auction house where they had to burn the painting but Sarah just didn't stick in my memory. I remembered Jenny (from Shut Up, Dr. Phil) a lot better but I think that may have been since Season 7 is a lot fresher in my mind and I remember that episode in particular because James Marsters & Charisma Carpenter were married witches who were feuding.

    I have no idea if Metatron is trying to play Castiel or not or how closing heaven will work out for them or even happen.

    Digging up Abaddon may have really back-fired on them. I couldn't believe they actually left her alone like that. She'll probably be back with a vengeance now and it didn't seem like she was too thrilled to hear about Crowley's new position.

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