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Thread: Spuffy in Season 9 (2)

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    Default Spuffy in Season 9 (2)

    It seems like it's time to start this thread -- but it's really a continuation of two threads.

    The classic Dark Horse thread is here -- with a tremendous introductory post by Enisy which everyone should read.

    http://www.darkhorse.com/Help/Boards...=12374&start=0

    The other is the season 8 Spuffy thread with a great introductory post by Plamivisi which everyone should read.

    http://buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17352

    ***
    On that thread, we've been talking about who should pursue whom in season 9. So I'll start off with this observation:

    In TGIQ, both Angel and Spike are pretty much mocked for still chasing around after Buffy, and they end the episode telling each other they need to move on. I don't think it's to Angel's credit as a character that he's depicted in season 8 as still being all about Buffy.

    So my question: Do you want Spike to have moved on? If so, what would you want that to look like? If not, what do you think Spike should be doing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    From the looks of it, they're saving him to be the last one gathered back.

    What they'll do with him is an open question.
    Rock star return for their rock star character.

    Quote Originally Posted by shipperx View Post
    I've been confused by your continued comparisons to Trek. I don't see the correlation.

    For one thing Trek isn't a reset, it's an alternative timeline. Everything that happened in the original verse happened. The reboot Trek is an alternative timeline from the moment that the Romulan ship came over. If it were literally reset rather than an alternative timeline, older Spok would have blinked out of existence like Walter (and earlier Peter) Bishop on Fringe. (And the writers realize this distinction because a couple of the writers of Fringe were script-writers for Trek).
    It's a factual distinction, but a meaningless one. It's just a means to obtain a reboot without having utterly invalidated the foregoing product. It's a reboot nonetheless, though, that is its practical and therefore relevant effect; a clean slate for character and relationship development, every adventure is the first adventure, etc.

    Secondly, Trek had to be rebooted. It has to do with the ages of the stars of TOS and TNG and the failures of Enterprise and Voyager. To be brutally honest, Deforest Kelly and James Doohan are dead and everyone else is far, far, FAR outside the target demographics for action movies (even Bruce Willis is a couple of decades younger... and still breathing.). If BtVS ever finds its way to TV or a movie, I fully expect they'll have to do much the same thing with BtVS characters, but none of this is an issue with a comic book (where Jeanty already has the propensity of drawing Buffy like she's 13.)
    I already gave my reasons why I think Joss could have decided to do something like this, don't really want to flesh them all out again -- he does chase and grab and cherry pick at pop culture, though, and "reboot" has been quite the thing lately. He knows the writing is on the wall for the "Buffy" brand to be "relaunched" in some context with or without him. Going back to the beginning and finding the "magic" again in a post-Seed-bullshit-resolving reboot would appear to solve his existential crisis or ennui or whatever he invented the Seed (and broke it) to vent at us in Season 8.

    I also said I still give it less than 50/50 odds, but... it definitely keeps hanging around. I don't even particularly want it to happen, I am almost horrified thinking about how badly such a venture could screw up even residual enjoyment of "Buffy" 1.0.

    Plus, DH went back to the 'early years' during comics run during the run of the show, years prior to Season 8. Sales dropped. I'm not sure why there would be a pressing urge to do the 'early years' one more time.
    Non-canon. That's the only relevant fact as to the success of those books.

    But, who knows, I thought a pregnancy plot would be a bad idea doomed to failure as well. {shrug}
    We didn't get a pregnancy plot, we got a double whammy of a non-pregnancy plot... exactly the sort of thing *I* said would be doomed to failure. I have little doubt that if they had just played it straight from the end of 9.05, they'd be in better shape from a sales standpoint than they are now. Possibly not as good as if they had just steered entirely clear, of course.

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    You think the draw of 'canon' wasn't primarily the draw of continuation?

    Plus, with Joss decreasingly involved the difference between the comics returning to the early years during seasons 6&7 of the show versus returning to early years now would be...? Joss isn't writing anything Buffy related as it is now.

    I guess maybe its a personal thing. High school just wasn't interesting enough for me to want to watch endless reiterations and permutations of it, but mileage does vary. Maybe there's an untapped vein of potential Buffy readers just waiting for the chance to hop on with Buffy and the Scoobs comic book second puberty.
    Last edited by shipperx; 20-02-13 at 05:40 AM.
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    I have real issues with the idea of a reboot if it strips Spike of his soul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shipperx View Post
    You think the draw of 'canon' wasn't primarily the draw of continuation?
    It is the definitive draw of the continuation. Which is... my point?

    Plus, with Joss decreasingly involved the difference between the comics returning to the early years during seasons 6&7 of the show versus returning to early years now would be...? Joss isn't writing anything Buffy related as it is now.
    Patrick Doyle doesn't actually go make any pizzas himself at Domino's, either, doesn't mean he is not still in charge. Joss' preference and vision still decide where the "Buffy" brand goes, so it's still him that we have to play psychic detective with. Honestly, he is the only reason I'd think reboot would even be on the table. I think if Allie, for instance, were the ultimate authority, we would get much more like what I proposed in the "ideal character arrangement" thread, abandoning the Season model and going with an expandable multiverse of ongoing monthlies.

    I guess maybe its a personal thing. High school just wasn't interesting enough for me to want to watch endless reiterations and permutations of it, but mileage does vary. Maybe there's an untapped vein of potential Buffy readers just waiting for the chance to hop on with Buffy and the Scoobs comic book second puberty.
    Well, if it does happen, I think one of the best reasons is that not only has the hope and magic of where the Buffyverse has gotten to fallen apart for Joss, but his "loyal" "audience" has also become so enamored of eviscerating the material and lobbying to run the asylum that a reboot would be the Godzilla Threshold of making everybody happy by pissing them all off equally.

    Look, we all know why reboot is on the table here, and it comes from the text -- we now have an explicit plot point of a character with an express intent to go back in time and change the past (our "Star Trek" comparison, different circumstances notwithstanding), the apparent potential ability to actually do it, AND several other additional serious problems that at this point may only be solvable through exactly that.

    So in terms of setting the time coordinates on that DeLorean, everybody is going to have an opinion -- stop Buffy from breaking the Seed? Pointless, doens't solve Twilight problem. Stop Buffy from space-frak? Most sensible, sure, but why not back far enough to prevent Angel from being corrupted at all? And that's before other more straightforward personal agendas kick in or the audience just starts wanting to see it as a straight up editorial comment on seasons they don't like -- go back to "The Gift" and keep Buffy from having to jump and you avert/change all of Season 6 and 7, for instance.

    So, if Joss Whedon, Joe Swedon himself, were going to try to pull a time travel reset, he's exactly the sort of writer who would choose to have it go Horrbly Right and deprive anybody in the audience of bragging points by just rebooting his signature franchise himself. But again, it all depends on what kind of letter we'd get from Joss this year -- if it's one in which he thinks he's found the hope and magic again, a time or renewal, he could reflect that in the story. Or, alternatively, if he has just completely absorbed himself into Marvel properties now, but still wants to have a voice in what stands as the "Buffy" flag, he could start it over and then hand it off to a new official steward as "showrunner".

    But it does come back to plot -- this only remains plausible insofar as it seems plausible that Severin is actually going to get a crack at his plan, or if the Scoobies are going to get a crack at stealing his plan and using it themselves. I think Joss respects himself enough that any such reboot would, like Abrams' "Star Trek", have to come from within the existing canonical construct itself, out of respect for the material that's already been. So take the plot device out, and you take the plausibility of him trying such a crazy thing.

    EDIT: Stoney, I think you aren't seeing a reboot for what it could potentially mean if that is your chief concern, because let's just say, if Season 10 = Season 0, then Buffy is either back at Hemery or just starting at Sunnydale and we're on a clean sheet of butterfly effect provided paper. Forget Spike having a soul, whose to say she even meets him? Uhura and Spock are a thing, y'know? That same horrible reality -- that in a rebooted Buffyverse canon, Joss could take up or leave out any character he wants or fundamentally redesign any character he wants, since they'd have gone through different experiences, see? Spike, I wouldn't worry about, because it's not like anybody's going to slaughter that cash cow, but it would be an easy time and place to put characters he's mostly out of ideas with on a bus or to just reinvent them into something unrecognizable until he does have ideas for them. I don't want a reboot for these reasons -- not a Joss-canonical one, anyway. I was happy with the idea of a rebooted movie that existed as an alternative expression of Buffy-osity to Joss' own, a la Batman/Superman movies vs. comics, Walking Dead, etc.
    Last edited by KingofCretins; 20-02-13 at 01:00 PM.

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    Well I can't very well say that Joss or Dark Horse can't or won't do such a thing. I can say that nothing about the idea inspires me with any interest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    There are 7 issues remaining.

    March #19 which wraps up this arc.
    April #20 which is all about Xander
    May #21 either the first or second issue in "The Core"

    I'd bet large sums of money that Spike will be back.

    (1) It's been set up in the text that Spike will be heading back to SF (and Buffy).

    (2) In the letter column of the last Willow issue Allie said he knows where they plan to leave things with Spike and Buffy in season 9, but they don't know what they'll do in season 10.

    (3) They've name dropped Spike just enough in season 9 to make it clear that it's unfinished business.

    (4) His departure panel has Buffy pretty much saying it's unfinished business.

    (5) The end has everyone gathering back together, and given Spike's large role at the beginning of the season, that has to include him.

    From the looks of it, they're saving him to be the last one gathered back.

    What they'll do with him is an open question.
    (6) Jeanty confirmed it in (one of his belated replies) in his Q&A for #13.

    24. TimeTravellingBunny: Hi, Georges. I have a question about the scene in issue #12 when Kennedy mentions Spike, and Buffy says "Spike has gone where no vampire has gone before". Since we only see Buffy and Kennedy from a distance in the panel, it's hard to discern what Buffy's facial expression is - if there's some anger and annoyance there, or sadness, or if she's indifferent or OK with it, or trying to appear so. Were you trying to make it ambiguous, or did you decide what feeling exactly she has regarding Spike's departure?

    Georges: Yes. To set the stage for his return...

    http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/...fy-Season-9-13
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    (6) Jeanty confirmed it in (one of his belated replies) in his Q&A for #13.

    24. TimeTravellingBunny: Hi, Georges. I have a question about the scene in issue #12 when Kennedy mentions Spike, and Buffy says "Spike has gone where no vampire has gone before". Since we only see Buffy and Kennedy from a distance in the panel, it's hard to discern what Buffy's facial expression is - if there's some anger and annoyance there, or sadness, or if she's indifferent or OK with it, or trying to appear so. Were you trying to make it ambiguous, or did you decide what feeling exactly she has regarding Spike's departure?

    Georges: Yes. To set the stage for his return...

    http://slayalive.com/showthread.php/...fy-Season-9-13
    That's nice to know. Would've been nicer if Jeanty had actually answered your question. Maybe you gave him too many choices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    EDIT: Stoney, I think you aren't seeing a reboot for what it could potentially mean if that is your chief concern, because let's just say, if Season 10 = Season 0, then Buffy is either back at Hemery or just starting at Sunnydale and we're on a clean sheet of butterfly effect provided paper. Forget Spike having a soul, whose to say she even meets him? Uhura and Spock are a thing, y'know? That same horrible reality -- that in a rebooted Buffyverse canon, Joss could take up or leave out any character he wants or fundamentally redesign any character he wants, since they'd have gone through different experiences, see? Spike, I wouldn't worry about, because it's not like anybody's going to slaughter that cash cow, but it would be an easy time and place to put characters he's mostly out of ideas with on a bus or to just reinvent them into something unrecognizable until he does have ideas for them. I don't want a reboot for these reasons -- not a Joss-canonical one, anyway. I was happy with the idea of a rebooted movie that existed as an alternative expression of Buffy-osity to Joss' own, a la Batman/Superman movies vs. comics, Walking Dead, etc.
    No I get all that I just am tired of the repeated violation of people's minds/bodies in BtVS. To reboot to any point before Spike gained his soul is to commit a huge violation because the circumstances/person combination that occurred which set him on that path would most probably never happen again. Of course you could show the 'destiny exists' route that some other combination gets him to the same place. Personally I like soulless Spike plenty and I'm sure they wouldn't kill him off but to take away something so hard fought for seems, well, crass. But I appreciate something that would be 'unfair' to Spike would hardly stop them if that is what they wanted to do. I would find it entertaining to see a variant version of BtVS, an alternative S1 onwards, but it would just feel a bit like reading fanfic. I don't have any huge strength of opinion on the idea of a reboot, it is only this aspect that makes me foot stamp a little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    No I get all that I just am tired of the repeated violation of people's minds/bodies in BtVS. To reboot to any point before Spike gained his soul is to commit a huge violation because the circumstances/person combination that occurred which set him on that path would most probably never happen again. Of course you could show the 'destiny exists' route that some other combination gets him to the same place. Personally I like soulless Spike plenty and I'm sure they wouldn't kill him off but to take away something so hard fought for seems, well, crass. But I appreciate something that would be 'unfair' to Spike would hardly stop them if that is what they wanted to do. I would find it entertaining to see a variant version of BtVS, an alternative S1 onwards, but it would just feel a bit like reading fanfic. I don't have any huge strength of opinion on the idea of a reboot, it is only this aspect that makes me foot stamp a little.
    If they were to use Severin time-travel as an in for an Abrams Reboot (i.e. creating an alternate timeline that becomes the subjective "prime" in place of the other), nobody has been violated. Picard wasn't violated by the recent "Star Trek" events, nor would souled Spike have been violated by an alternate timeline in which that doesn't end up happening. The concept of "mindrape" and whatnot simply can't be that all-inclusive, or the entire sci-fi/fantasy genre is out of business.

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    Sorry for the fanwank but I can't help but wonder...
    If they do take the time-reversal route using Severin's powers, technically they would be using Ilyria's powers. This could lead to two possibilities (that I can think of, right now):
    1. Create a replacing "prime" time line, as King says (this would mean taking everybody to the parting point, not damage done, am I right?).
    2. Do it the AtF way, where everybody keeps their memories (and probably their souls, if this is the case), and start over, but knowing what's going to happen in the next several years. And then everything would go wacky and anything could happen.

    And... This would be totally fanfiction-like. And confusing.
    Not that they don't do this in comic books all the time... but still...
    Last edited by Rihannon; 20-02-13 at 07:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    If they were to use Severin time-travel as an in for an Abrams Reboot (i.e. creating an alternate timeline that becomes the subjective "prime" in place of the other), nobody has been violated. Picard wasn't violated by the recent "Star Trek" events, nor would souled Spike have been violated by an alternate timeline in which that doesn't end up happening. The concept of "mindrape" and whatnot simply can't be that all-inclusive, or the entire sci-fi/fantasy genre is out of business.
    If you take person A from position A and move them back in their personal timeline to time x then sure, no violation as in that they could theoretically just follow the same path. Except you know that they had achieved position A and if they never get there again and you know that they were delighted to have achieved it it is a sad thing to see someone not get. Sure, new path, new opportunities and all that.

    To be honest I think it would be interesting but I also think it would seem a little height of desperation to effectively give yourself the opportunity to start all over again with the characters and just etch-a-sketch. Like I said, it would seem a bit fanfiction-y but, tbh, if it meant that we could have progressive storytelling again rather than static or regressing Buffy I'd rather see her 15 and start afresh meeting some of the same people in different scenarios and see how things could pan out alternatively. Although obviously this endeth the story as is, not sure that won't just feel sour.
    Last edited by Stoney; 20-02-13 at 06:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    If you take person A from position A and move them back in their personal timeline to time x then sure, no violation as in that they could theoretically just follow the same path. Except you know that they had achieved position A and if they never get there again and you know that they were delighted to have achieved it it is a sad thing to see someone not get. Sure, new path, new opportunities and all that.
    There are, ontologically speaking, already alternate timelines containing every eventuality. Joyce had her fire axe handled better and actually cleaved Spike's head open in one, allowing Buffy to leisurely stake the quivering mass; in another, Cecily swooned at the word "effulgent", married William and they were wealthy, elderly first class passengers who died in the maiden voyage of the Titanic.

    See what I'm getting at? All we're talking about with an 'Abrams reboot' is a) adopting one of those infinite alternates out of the Whole Sort of General Mish Mash and adopting it as the "POV" timeline for an ongoing series of stories.

    And that doesn't violate Spike or anyone else, because the outcomes in the infinite variety of timelines are entirely independent.

    To be honest I think it would be interesting but I also think it would seem a little height of desperation to effectively give yourself the opportunity to start all over again with the characters and just etch-a-sketch. Like I said, it would seem a bit fanfiction-y but, tbh, if it meant that we could have progressive storytelling again rather than static or regressing Buffy I'd rather see her 15 and start afresh meeting some of the same people in different scenarios and see how things could pan out alternatively. Although obviously this endeth the story as is, not sure that won't just feel sour.
    Well, that's the cost of doing business. Again, I don't actually think this is likely, i.e. not 50% or greater, just a chance that I'd quantify as 25-30%, and even that contingent on how far they continue to let Severin's plan advance. And certainly the end of the story "as is" was the biggest problem that Paramount ran into in terms of reaction to the new "Star Trek" movie. But if that's a legitimate model for it, it still bodes fairly well, because "Star Trek" as a brand is more relevant now than it has been in 15 years or more.

    I personally think they would see a renaissance of interest if they had it all to do over again but with the promise of new and varied outcomes. Just because I would dread it in most respects... FFS I don't know if I'd be happier to just see Xander omitted or to deal with whatever reinvention they'd attempt... I think they'd probably see their first 100k selling comic since the early goings of Season 8.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rihannon View Post
    And... Whoa! What it would be for Buffy to see him with a another woman's kid?
    Lol! Imagine Angel seeing Spike with Buffy's and his child.

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    Just to let you know I've moved the last few posts from the Spuffy in Season 9 thread into a new thread. We are trying some things to help speed the forum up for everyone.

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    I didn't know where to post this, but I want to share with you, because IMO , it is interesting- did you know that James was a co-writer in "Spike and Dru " comic ? Here is the short inteview with him :

    EXCLUSIVE: Writing 'Buffy' Comics Was 'A Rude Awakening,' Says James Marsters [UPDATED]

    Posted 4/21/09 9:33 am EST by Silas Lesnick in Dark Horse, IDW Publishing, News

    [EDITOR'S NOTE: This post has been edited to correct several inaccuracies re: comic book projects' status and creative teams. "Spike and Dru" publisher Dark Horse Comics has also provided Splash Page with an official response to James Marsters comments. -RM]
    Though its been off the airwaves for years (and this is back when TV had airwaves), the Buffyverse lives on today in comic book form. James Marsters, the "Dragonball Evolution" actor who played vampire villain-turned-hero Spike in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and "Angel," recently shared some thoughts with with MTV News about his experience working with “Buffy” comics and how he tries to keep up with his vampiric alter ego.
    “I like what I see,” Marsters told MTV News of IDW’s "Angel" series.
    With ongoing “Buffy” and “Angel” comics currently published by two separate companies (Dark Horse and IDW, respectively), the character of Spike is, at the moment, making all his appearances in the latter. But when both series were still on the air, Dark Horse controlled the complete Buffyverse and actually hired Marsters to co-write a one-shot comic book, “Spike and Dru,” an experience that the actor confessed wasn’t one of his favorite memories.
    “I thought that if I wrote a comic, I'd have ultimate power over everything," said Marsters. "It was a rude awakening to find out how little power writers have.”
    The real bone of contention was with Dark Horse’s choice of artist Ryan Sook, who drew everything in a dark, gothic style that, while he liked the art, Marsters insists just wasn’t right for his story.
    “[He] drew it in a real Goth style that made [Spike and Dru] both look feral and ugly," explained Marsters. "I thought that was kind of cool for me, but Juliet Landau didn't write this and didn't want her character drawn like a hideous beast… This is a twisted romance. This is not a gothic thing. And in romance, the leads have to be romantic. They have to be characters that the audience wants to kiss."
    Marsters said he complained to Dark Horse, but it was too late to make any changes and Marsters was left with a comic that he’s not entirely proud of. On the flipside, though, he takes some glee in the fact that, afterwards, all of Dark Horse’s Spike appearances were, in his mind, overly handsome.
    “Every time they do a comic,” he laughed, “they're probably worried, ‘That James Marsters, he's going to give us a call.’”
    What do you think of the current “Buffy” and “Angel” series? Should Marsters reconsider and try his hand at writing again? Share your thoughts below!
    Tags angel, buffy the vampire slayer, buffy the vampire slayer: season eight, james marsters


    And here is the link : http://splashpage.mtv.com/2009/04/21...ames-marsters/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    I very much love that his memories of Dawn haven't faded. And while I am in the brigade that is ticked off by Spike's ongoing unrequited love story, I don't share the reviewer's views on how that plays out here. Buffy isn't using Spike. Spike's going back because he cares -- and I think the scene plays as him caring at least as much about Dawn as about Buffy. (That panel of his reaction to hearing Dawn's name is great).
    As I said in the other thread, I believe that Spike is as concerned for Dawn as he is for Buffy and I have no objection to his heading straight to SF.

    And, personally I don't think Buffy is using Spike, at least not in the way that such a phrase usually implies. There is no ill intent. She doesn't think of it that way. She doesn't mean it. And she would be shocked and categorically deny it if accused of it, and she'd be being perfectly honest! "Using" makes it sound calculated and manipulative and it categorically isn't that.

    I do sort of understand using the word, though, because while it's not a predatory "using him!" thing (it really isn't! It's not. Buffy doesn't consciously or deliberately seek to 'use' Spike), there's a small grain of underlying truth there.

    Primarily, it relates to the role Spike tends to have in her life. He's the fall-back position. When she feels insecure, like other's might judge her... well, Spike most probably won't, and even if he did, she could dismiss it because...it's just Spike.

    Bizarrely enough, Spike is 'safe'... and by that I mean either he gives her the pep talk or the praise or the emotional support she needs or, if he dosen't, well deep down she believes he's 'just Spike'. If he didn't support her, it wouldn't cut to the quick. She simply doesn't fear rejection from Spike, not like she does from everyone else who is important to her. So Spike is 'safe' in that regard. Spike is... well... the word that pops to mind...

    (Probably because of association with song lyrics. So here are two snippets from two songs (that happen to have the same title):

    Matchbox 20's:
    I don't want to be your crutch
    One step away from down {...}
    I feel like hell
    So come on over, be a love machine
    I could be your friend, ain't no shame
    feel strong for one another
    Make a real true color{...}
    God damn, change of pace
    I think there's still a piece of my heart on your face
    It's a shame to let it waste
    How does it taste?

    And Theory of a Deadman's lyrics
    ...to look at you is hard
    But I'm too afraid to look away.
    Misery loves company and here you stand in front of me.
    Just, please, don't ask me to stay

    So, who do you trust?
    Now that you need me to get through the day
    I'm asking too much: to have you hear what I have to say
    So I say
    You needed a reason
    You needed too much.
    You can lean on me
    But don't lean on me like I'm your crutch.

    Buffy doesn't 'use' Spike because there is no intent there. And she's not demanding that he give her anything that he doesn't want to give. But basically, what she usually wants from him is a place to hide.

    The problem is, as the story has made clear, that's a really, really sucky position for the one who is only a hiding place.

    Spike told her what that felt like, and she had and made no response. She could've. She didn't.

    And she hasn't thought about it since.

    That's the fundamental imbalance of the relationship. To her, Spike is a good source of support. He's a great fall-back position and action wing-man. And yes, that reflects something somewhere inside her. There are feelings of some sort there... somewhere. But she doesn't want more than that. She doesn't consider wanting it to be more than that.

    The problem is that Spike is always stuck in the basement with her. And it's gotten old.

    There has to be some parity there and thus far in the comics there just straight-up isn't. Spike leaves and spends 4 issues thinking about her (before being drilled by Gage's crap-awful crossover). Meanwhile she hasn't for a moment considered anything that he said, hasn't missed him, and has managed to only mention his name twice in passing at total random.

    That sort of imbalance cannot work.

    I know she 'values' him as a safe place to turn when the world turns $hitty. But if it isn't expanded from that, then it's only serving one of their needs. And those needs being served aren't exactly Spike's, who acutely feels the part that's missing.

    And since I posted part of the lyrics, might as well post the part where Theory of a Deadman's lyrics got darker:
    You never started loving me, so you could never quit
    I could rule this f***in' world and you'd still think I'm $h!t.
    So who do you trust?
    Now that you need me to get through the day
    I'm asking too much: to have you hear what I have to say.
    So I say...
    You needed a reason
    You needed too much.
    You can lean on me
    But don't lean on me like I'm your crutch.

    Neither Buffy or Spike would ever phrase it in such harsh words.

    But I do think when all is said and done Buffy has never stopped believing that for all that she turns to him and needs him occasionally and for all the ways that he has 'bettered' himself... at the end of the day, she still considers him to be 'beneath her.' That part hasn't changed (and with in comics, I don't think it ever will... because the writers see it that way too.)
    Last edited by shipperx; 24-04-13 at 08:53 PM.
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  28. #18
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    I don't know, I still am hoping for change. I'm hoping that in wanting somewhere to belong etc Spike might pull himself out of the set role. Sure Buffy would need to buy in but, as it had been, it was Spike who bought into the role of the Dark Place by staying on the edges looking in. If he returns and actively engages in setting up his own life where he doesn't hover in the clouds or sleep in the basement, if he stops wandering and seeks the 'home' that will satisfy his soul then maybe Buffy will see him differently. It really does take both of them to change their attitudes here.

    I think Allie said that Buffy wasn't ready to think about it yet, it could just be that Spike changing his attitude will inform and educate hers. We could end up with a genuine Spike/Other storyline playing into this also. I'm still feeling somewhat wary of them making Illyria Fredlike, although that is a pairing I would dislike because I really think they had the friends/protective sibling thing going on and it was nice for it. Anyway, my money at the moment would be that if Spike is in Buffy's title in S10 it will be about her seeing him on more of an equal footing with a good likelihood of an alternative romance for him.

    But hey, two issues on when we have seen them interact again I may have an entirely different pov.

  29. #19
    Dedicated Spike Fan Maggie's Avatar
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    I agree with your characterization of where Spike and Buffy are. Let me put my objection to the reviewer's reaction this way:

    Buffy didn't call Spike because she didn't know how to reach him. She called Faith. Spike learned what was going on, and was visibly upset that *Dawn* was in trouble. He immediately heads for the door to help out.

    I grant you, if Buffy knew how to reach Spike, she'd have called him, and that would play into the dynamic you and I both find troubling. OTOH, she wasn't just calling Spike. She was sending out a general SOS to anybody she could think of. So even there, I'm not so troubled by this particular iteration of Spike running off to help.

    If he sticks around to be Buffy's special friend who helps out with problems she won't take to others, and if Buffy continue to treat him otherwise as something of a social leper (stupid, needy, creepy), then yeah phooey on the story. Big phooey.

    But I do think that all DH's blather about Spike being in a better space has to mean that he's not going to go along with that. As for whether Buffy will finally shift into a better space... I don't know. I'm still trying to figure out why Spike is still in Buffy's story at all. But since he is still in her story, we have to figure that he somehow matters, and that means she's going to have to make some kind of adjustment. But since I can't see what reason they have for having Spike still around, I can't see what shifts they need Buffy to make in that arena. And yes, it's entirely possible that Spike is just around because he's a fan fave. But you'd think that even if they are forced to write him in, they'd give some thought to how to integrate him into the story more organically.

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    I'm just annoyed that the version of Spuffy Joss/Allie and co have chosen to put forward in the comics - once they acknowledged that it existed in the first place- is so entirely negative.

    It's completely coloured the way I view season 7 now. I've got to the point where I almost believe the extremist Bangel narrative, which is that Buffy wouldn't let Angel wear the amulet because she cared about him so much, but it was okay if Spike wore it because he was expendable.

    I'm not saying I want to believe this version. I honestly don't know why anyone would want to, no matter their 'shipping preference. It paints Buffy in a horrible light - that she'd be willing to sacrifice Spike like that, even though he volunteered for the job (because the fact that this scenario of necessity means she didn't love him, IMO, makes her look even worse). However, the Spike/Buffy relationship, such as it is, in both season 8 and 9 makes more sense if this version is what Joss was going for in Chosen.

    My belief is that, having discovered that there were fans invested in the Spike/Buffy relationship, and that they weren't going to be put off by the PTBs at Dark Horse saying how icky it was, the decision was made to try and put them off another way. That it involved making Buffy look pretty bad at times didn't matter, as long as the fans ended up wanting it to be over for good.

    And like I said on the other thread, it looks like it's worked. Every fanboard you go to, there are people talking about Spuffy in the past tense - as if Buffy 10 was it - and about how Spike should let it go and move on because she doesn't love him and never will.

    So their work is effectively done. And I suppose if that's what Joss thinks (despite all the nice things he said about Spike/Buffy before season 9 started - how it was his favourite to write etc), then it's pointless fighting against it. His story, his rules.

    Unfortunately, though, after that lacklustre mini series, and the awful crossover, I don't think he or anyone at Dark Horse has the least idea what to do with the character if he's not with Buffy. They already have a vampire with a soul. Spike is surplus to requirements. It's no wonder everything they've done with him since he came back in season 8 -with the honourable exception of season 9 nos 1-7 -from the ridiculous bug ship to a mini series with minimal plot that had nothing to do with the main story, and in which the protagonist was upstaged by talking insects - has seemed - to me anyway- like floundering.

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