Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 97

Thread: The Road So Far: All Seasons Discussion

  1. #41
    I don't get wet Bittersweettwit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    With Mulder and Scully!
    Posts
    742
    Thanks
    943
    Thanked 391 Times in 343 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    Oh man, lord knows I loved Bobby dearly. He was my third favourite character of the show, but what's dead should stay dead. His farewell in Death's Door was momentous, and I enjoyed his 'angry ghost' storyline, but bringing him back would cheapen the character and his development. I was very unhappy with Bobby's appearance in Taxi Driver and I'd rather remember him as the great character he was from S1-S7 than see him run into the ground by the current writers. Besides, I think the show would do well expanding on other characters in the brothers' lives, like Garth or Charlie or Jodie.
    Mhm I'd agree with that except the angry ghost story-line I still stand by my belief that Death's Door should have been the last we saw of Bobby bar flashbacks of some sort, so it's hardly surprising I would have my current stance to the idea I agree though it would definitely be brilliant to see more expansion of Garth and Jodie! I have kinda went off Charlie with her last appearance they've given her too many sue like qualities for my taste
    Last edited by Bittersweettwit; 05-06-13 at 12:06 AM.
    Livejournal

    Avatar made by Shameless666 of Livejournal

  2. #42
    Roadie galathea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Offworld
    Posts
    1,232
    Thanks
    333
    Thanked 885 Times in 760 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    I agree though it would definitely be brilliant to see more expansion of Garth and Jodie! I have kinda went off Charlie with her last appearance they've seen her too many sue like qualities for my taste
    Well, I love Charlie, and I don't think she is a Mary Sue at all, but obviously that's subjective. Anyway, I think Charlie and Garth and Jodie in particular are great expansions to the cast because they are positive, optimistic characters. We don't get that very often in Supernatural, and I think the levity they add to the show (and to Sam and Dean's lives) is urgently needed at this point. I just don't see where they could go with a resurrected Bobby storyline, apart from repeating storylines they already did for Sam and Dean, and I am tired of the writers retreading old paths. If the show is to run for another two seasons, they should concentrate on bringing in fresh blood, instead of trying to find contrived ways to bring the ones they killed off back to life!

  3. #43
    ninja scientist Ehlwyen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    3,335
    Thanks
    1,580
    Thanked 1,276 Times in 720 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit
    What do you guys think of the at least for now remote chance of Bobby coming back?
    DO NOT WANT!

    The show is going into its ninth season. The boys do not need to be treated as the children to anyone's adult figure. There is a certain level of maturity that comes from not having parents to look towards for guidance. It also imparts a new view of one's own mortality.

    Perhaps the show will never let the boys mature into having real relationships and becoming parents of their own, but I need them to not be the children on the show anymore.

    Lydia made the punch!

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ehlwyen For This Useful Post:

    Francy (05-06-13),Tranquillity (13-06-13)

  5. #44
    Thread Saviour Francy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    SG Command
    Posts
    1,028
    Thanks
    679
    Thanked 1,594 Times in 1,090 Posts

    Default

    On the subject of Bobby coming back, interview with Jim Beaver:

    http://ohnotheydidnt.livejournal.com/78664372.html

    |LiveJournal| | |Tumblr|
    Icon by xiperita

  6. #45
    I don't get wet Bittersweettwit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    With Mulder and Scully!
    Posts
    742
    Thanks
    943
    Thanked 391 Times in 343 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    I was rewatching On The Head of a Pin, and man,

    they made Cas so pathetic. He's supposed to be this powerful angel, yet everyone kicks his ass...angels, demins, take your pick.

    Also, angels are so powerful and terrifying that demons are scared of them... but Cas is totally powerless against Alistair, and it took Sam (a mere human with the added "benefit" of having some demon blood) to save him from Alistair.

    This show.
    Hmm, actually Castiel was consistently portrayed as being a grunt of an angel in season four (which is why I believe God made him more powerful with each resurrection). We known he was subservient to Uriel although since the reason cited was 'he was too close to his charge' whether that makes him weaker or on the same level was arguable. We do know for a fact though that he was beneath Anna (Heaven and Hell) and Zachariah. Likewise On the Head of a Pin was not inconsistent in regards to Castiel vs Alastair during their first encounter Alastair almost exorcised Castiel to heaven only saved thanks to Dean distracting him moments before the deed could be done. Therefore it was not unrealistic or discontinuous for him to be powerless against Alastair

    Sam on the other hand was gifted with not just any demon's blood, but that of Azazel arguably the most powerful demon we've seen on the show (depending on whether you think yellow eyes indicates a higher rank than the white eyes of Lilith and Alastair). Throughout the entire season and indeed before it we were informed that Sam's powers were pretty powerful enough to take out Lilith a demon only arch-angels were said to be able to smite.

    So in light of all that I really don't see the issue with Alastair's death scene
    Last edited by Bittersweettwit; 04-08-13 at 04:40 PM.
    Livejournal

    Avatar made by Shameless666 of Livejournal

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Bittersweettwit For This Useful Post:

    galathea (04-08-13)

  8. #46
    Thread Saviour Francy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    SG Command
    Posts
    1,028
    Thanks
    679
    Thanked 1,594 Times in 1,090 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    Hmm, actually Castiel was consistently portrayed as being a grunt of an angel in season four (which is why I believe God made him more powerful with each resurrection). We known he was subservient to Uriel although since the reason cited was 'he was too close to his charge' whether that makes him weaker or on the same level was arguable. We do know for a fact though that he was beneath Anna (Heaven and Hell) and Zachariah. Likewise On the Head of a Pin was not inconsistent in regards to Castiel vs Alastair during their first encounter he almost exorcised Castiel to heaven only saved thanks to Dean distracting him moments before the deed could be done. Therefore it was not unrealistic or discontinuous for him to be powerless against Alastair

    Sam on the other hand was gifted with not just any demon's blood, but that of Azazel arguably the most powerful demon we've seen on the show (depending on whether you think yellow eyes indicates a higher rank than the white eyes of Lilith and Alastair). Throughout the entire season and indeed before it we were informed that Sam's powers were pretty powerful enough to take out Lilith a demon only arch-angels were said to be able to smite.

    So in light of all that I really don't see the issue with Alastair's death scene
    Maybe. It's still hard for me to accept that a human (even if it is the show's star, and even if endowed with a drop of Azazel's blood) would be more powerful than an angel, grunt or not. So I have a problem with that scene, and no amount of rationalization will change that!

    |LiveJournal| | |Tumblr|
    Icon by xiperita

  9. #47
    Roadie galathea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Offworld
    Posts
    1,232
    Thanks
    333
    Thanked 885 Times in 760 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    Maybe. It's still hard for me to accept that a human (even if it is the show's star, and even if endowed with a drop of Azazel's blood) would be more powerful than an angel, grunt or not. So I have a problem with that scene, and no amount of rationalization will change that!
    But the whole point of Sam's arc - or well, part of it - was that he was created specifically to be powerful enough to kill the first demon, Lilith. If angels had been able to do that, they could have initiated the apocalypse themselves by simply killing her instead of pushing Sam to do it. So obviously there are demons that angels are unable to kill, and since Alistair was pretty high up the food chain, I don't find it hard to believe that he was one of those demons.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to galathea For This Useful Post:

    Bittersweettwit (04-08-13)

  11. #48
    I don't get wet Bittersweettwit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    With Mulder and Scully!
    Posts
    742
    Thanks
    943
    Thanked 391 Times in 343 Posts

    Default

    What I get for not watching season five in a while, but now I have a question for anyone who can answer. I know Ruby confirms at the end of Lucifer's Rising that the powers Sam has comes from within himself rather than the demon blood he'd been drinking throughout season four. However am I right in thinking that while it may not be the source of Sam's ability additional demon blood augments what is already there, which is why he needed to drink demon blood before allowing Lucifer to possess him?
    Livejournal

    Avatar made by Shameless666 of Livejournal

  12. #49
    Roadie galathea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Offworld
    Posts
    1,232
    Thanks
    333
    Thanked 885 Times in 760 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    What I get for not watching season five in a while, but now I have a question for anyone who can answer. I know Ruby confirms at the end of Lucifer's Rising that the powers Sam has comes from within himself rather than the demon blood he'd been drinking throughout season four. However am I right in thinking that while it may not be the source of Sam's ability additional demon blood augments what is already there, which is why he needed to drink demon blood before allowing Lucifer to possess him?
    The blood mythology is, unfortunately, a right mess. Your question is actually about two different things: a) Sam's powers and b) Sam's function as a vessel; those two are not necessarily related, though. Now, it is never truly explained how the synergy between Sam's demon blood and the blood he drinks from Ruby works, and it is handled kind of inconsistently in the show, especially if we compare it to Ava and Jake's powers. My theory is that the psychic abilities Sam displayed in S4 genuinely tapped into the powers Azazel gave him and that Ruby's blood simply provided a catalyst for him to access them.

    We know that this is not how the powers were supposed to work, though. "The learning curve is so fast, it’s crazy. The switches, they just flip in your brain," Ava explained to Sam in All Hell Breaks Loose and Jake later confirmed "Once you give into it, there are all sorts of new Jedi mind tricks you can learn." Ava and Jake learned how to control their powers through triggers in their brain, and it allowed them to effortlessly access and execute them. Sam never learned that, and it stands to reason that Ruby simply didn’t know how to teach Sam that ability. Furthermore, I think that Sam built a psychological block against his powers, because he knew they were demonic in origin and that barrier needed to be overcome as well. So, I think Ruby’s blood worked on two levels: Firstly, it gave Sam an external source for his powers, something not inherent to him, so his abilities became psychologically acceptable, because he could always stop. Secondly, the blood worked as a substitute power switch, so to speak. It fuelled Sam’s natural powers, like an accelerant fuels fire, and until the accelerant is consumed, the fire burns brighter, hotter, easier. So, given his lack of 'natural' control over his powers, it makes sense to me that Sam is only ever able to access them, if he artificially activates them through demon blood.

    As for why Sam has to drink demon blood for Lucifer to possess him: Castiel claims that he has to do it for his body to withstand the possession, but that makes no sense whatsoever. I mean, as far as we know, Nick, Lucifer’s first vessel, didn’t have any demon blood in him at all when the devil took him over – let alone drink gallons of it beforehand – so that directly contradicts the notion that the blood is a prerequisite for the possession. Hence it is incomprehensible why Castiel claims that Sam would need to drink blood before the possession has even come to pass. And given that Sam has no intention whatsoever to actually stay Lucifer’s vessel for any extended period of time, there is no necessity for him to 'strengthen' his body during the possession either. I mean, Nick's body only started to show signs of deterioration months after the possession took place, so, surely, Sam would be able to hold out for a couple of minutes (as he intended) or even some hours/days without 'exploding'. More importantly though, we have been told that Sam is Lucifer’s one perfect vessel, but how can he be perfect, if he isn’t even able to take Lucifer in and withstand the possession without further extensive preparation? What's the point in singling Sam out, if he needs to go through the same 'blood drinking' routine as Nick, the minor vessel?

    So, all in all, I think the writers didn't really think this part of the mythology through.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to galathea For This Useful Post:

    Bittersweettwit (04-08-13)

  14. #50
    Thread Saviour Francy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    SG Command
    Posts
    1,028
    Thanks
    679
    Thanked 1,594 Times in 1,090 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    But the whole point of Sam's arc - or well, part of it - was that he was created specifically to be powerful enough to kill the first demon, Lilith. If angels had been able to do that, they could have initiated the apocalypse themselves by simply killing her instead of pushing Sam to do it. So obviously there are demons that angels are unable to kill, and since Alistair was pretty high up the food chain, I don't find it hard to believe that he was one of those demons.
    I'm not saying it wasn't explained in the show. I'm saying that I don't like it (and maybe it's one of the reasons why I was never into Sam as a character. I remember having a meltdown in season two because I hated Sam's powers and specialness. Also because the whole demon blood mythology makes no sense..if they had developed better the why and hows Sam has the powers he has, it would have irked me less).

    When you watch a show you have to buy its rules, though, especially if you stick with it for 8 years, so I accept it. I was just making a throwaway comment, no need to get into a discussion about this.

    |LiveJournal| | |Tumblr|
    Icon by xiperita

  15. #51
    I don't get wet Bittersweettwit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    With Mulder and Scully!
    Posts
    742
    Thanks
    943
    Thanked 391 Times in 343 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    More importantly though, we have been told that Sam is Luciferís one perfect vessel, but how can he be perfect, if he isnít even able to take Lucifer in and withstand the possession without further extensive preparation? What's the point in singling Sam out, if he needs to go through the same 'blood drinking' routine as Nick, the minor vessel?

    So, all in all, I think the writers didn't really think this part of the mythology through.
    I pretty much agree with the rest

    And indeed the need for Sam to drink demon blood never made sense to me since as you said the show consistently made it clear that unlike Nick Sam was Lucifer's true vessel and we see Michael is able to hop in and out of John with no issues in The Song Remains the Same. The only thing I can think of that would remotely make sense is if Castiel had suggested Sam drink the demon blood to prevent him from becoming an absolute wreck like Raphael's former vessel, but since the show made it quite clear it was more about him not breaking during possession rather than after. You are right it's an absolute mess
    Livejournal

    Avatar made by Shameless666 of Livejournal

  16. #52
    Roadie galathea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Offworld
    Posts
    1,232
    Thanks
    333
    Thanked 885 Times in 760 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    I'm not saying it wasn't explained in the show. I'm saying that I don't like it (and maybe it's one of the reasons why I was never into Sam as a character. I remember having a meltdown in season two because I hated Sam's powers and specialness. Also because the whole demon blood mythology makes no sense..if they had developed better the why and hows Sam has the powers he has, it would have irked me less).

    When you watch a show you have to buy its rules, though, especially if you stick with it for 8 years, so I accept it. I was just making a throwaway comment, no need to get into a discussion about this.
    The mythology as a whole has been slowly falling apart since S4, we just have to make the best of it - or, you know, ignore it and concentrate on the characters. And it's funny, Sam's powers are the lynchpin of the entire mythology - well, in S1-5 at least - so basically you dislike the show's main storyline. It's a miracle that you never quit the show.

  17. #53
    Thread Saviour Francy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    SG Command
    Posts
    1,028
    Thanks
    679
    Thanked 1,594 Times in 1,090 Posts

    Default

    Not to count how repellent that Sam - a human, not a vampire - drinks blood to begin with. The normal human reaction to drinking blood is to throw it all up. A stupid and unbelievable mythology all around.

    They should have come up with something else to explain Sam's mixed nature, for example (just throwing out ideas) Azazel possessing John when Sam was conceived (like it happened with Jesse the antichrist and his mother), or Azazel having performed a powerful spell on baby Sam to twist his nature towards the demonic side... anything other than this blood mess.

    Quote Originally Posted by galathea
    The mythology as a whole has been slowly falling apart since S4, we just have to make the best of it - or, you know, ignore it and concentrate on the characters. And it's funny, Sam's powers are the lynchpin of the entire mythology - well, in S1-5 at least - so basically you dislike the show's main storyline. It's a miracle that you never quit the show.
    Hehe, I was close in season 3... I didn't dislike the show, but it failed to keep my interest week after week. Season 4 (with its flaws) was providential, in my case!
    Last edited by Francy; 04-08-13 at 05:38 PM.

    |LiveJournal| | |Tumblr|
    Icon by xiperita

  18. #54
    I don't get wet Bittersweettwit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    With Mulder and Scully!
    Posts
    742
    Thanks
    943
    Thanked 391 Times in 343 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    The mythology as a whole has been slowly falling apart since S4, we just have to make the best of it - or, you know, ignore it and concentrate on the characters. And it's funny, Sam's powers are the lynchpin on the entire mythology - well, in S1-5 at least - so basically you dislike the show's main storyline. It's a miracle that you never quit the show.
    Well to be fair the same could be said about many of Dean's hardcore fans whose never ending complaint is about the 'specialness' of Sam. Guess there are just many things on this show which can appeal to people hence it's very diverse fan base
    Livejournal

    Avatar made by Shameless666 of Livejournal

  19. #55
    Roadie galathea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Offworld
    Posts
    1,232
    Thanks
    333
    Thanked 885 Times in 760 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    I pretty much agree with the rest

    And indeed the need for Sam to drink demon blood never made sense to me since as you said the show consistently made it clear that unlike Nick Sam was Lucifer's true vessel and we see Michael is able to hop in and out of John with no issues in The Song Remains the Same. The only thing I can think of that would remotely make sense is if Castiel had suggested Sam drink the demon blood to prevent him from becoming an absolute wreck like Raphael's former vessel, but since the show made it quite clear it was more about him not breaking during possession rather than after. You are right it's an absolute mess
    Yeah, we see plenty of angel possessions throughout the show and no other angel (or demon for that matter) ever needed their vessel to ingest blood to sustain them. It's never explained why Lucifer is so very special in that regard. I assume that the writers were looking for a believable way to bring Sam back from the darkness, and by treating his powers like an addiction they achieved that. But they compromised they mythology in the process.

  20. #56
    Roadie galathea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Offworld
    Posts
    1,232
    Thanks
    333
    Thanked 885 Times in 760 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    Not to count how repellent that Sam - a human, not a vampire - drinks blood to begin with. The normal human reaction to drinking blood is to throw it all up. A stupid and unbelievable mythology all around.

    They should have come up with something else to explain Sam's mixed nature, for example (just throwing out ideas) Azazel possessing John when Sam was conceived (like it happened with Jesse the antichrist and his mother), or Azazel having performed a powerful spell on baby Sam to twist his nature towards the demonic side... anything other than this blood mess.
    I am not going to argue with that. I was never a fan of the whole blood addiction storyline to begin with, and I wished they had adhered to the powers mythology they already set up with Ava and Jake. The mythology would have been a lot more consistent and cleaner for it.

  21. #57
    I don't get wet Bittersweettwit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    With Mulder and Scully!
    Posts
    742
    Thanks
    943
    Thanked 391 Times in 343 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    I am not going to argue with that. I was never a fan of the whole blood addiction storyline to begin with, and I wished they had adhered to the powers mythology they already set up with Ava and Jake. The mythology would have been a lot more consistent and cleaner for it.
    Although that of course is another issue. If the whole point of Azazel's plan as revealed in Lucifer's Rising was to find a vessel for Lucifer what was the need for the psychic children? Where the rest just a smoke screen to hide Sam? Was he attempting to create back up vessels in case Sam refused to co-operate or extra ones were needed?

    I really resent the way they linked the psychic kids to Lucifer's vessel as to me the two just don't mesh well
    Livejournal

    Avatar made by Shameless666 of Livejournal

  22. #58
    Roadie galathea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Offworld
    Posts
    1,232
    Thanks
    333
    Thanked 885 Times in 760 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    Although that of course is another issue. If the whole point of Azazel's plan as revealed in Lucifer's Rising was to find a vessel for Lucifer what was the need for the psychic children? Where the rest just a smoke screen to hide Sam? Was he attempting to create back up vessels in case Sam refused to co-operate or extra ones were needed?

    I really resent the way they linked the psychic kids to Lucifer's vessel as to me the two just don't mesh well
    Oh, man, don't get me started on that issue. I could rant about that for hours. We cannot forget, though, that the angel/vessel mythology has never been part of the original plan. By changing course in S4 the writers backed themselves into a corner, mythology wise, and their desperate attempt to knit the two halves together was questionable at best. If it hadn't been for the writer's strike, the story would have taken an entirely different turn and all these inconsistencies wouldn't have happened. But well, maybe others would have taken their place, who knows.

  23. The Following User Says Thank You to galathea For This Useful Post:

    Bittersweettwit (04-08-13)

  24. #59
    Where was I? ciderdrinker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    just outside London
    Posts
    713
    Thanks
    143
    Thanked 243 Times in 79 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    We cannot forget, though, that the angel/vessel mythology has never been part of the original plan. By changing course in S4 the writers backed themselves into a corner, mythology wise, and their desperate attempt to knit the two halves together was questionable at best. If it hadn't been for the writer's strike, the story would have taken an entirely different turn and all these inconsistencies wouldn't have happened. But well, maybe others would have taken their place, who knows.
    Has it ever been said how Kripke's master plan would have come together without the inclusions of angel? I'd be fascinated to know, because I can't see how they'd have managed it without the angels (i.e. Zachariah) manipulating things.

    Peter Capaldi is the 12th Doctor

  25. #60
    Roadie galathea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Offworld
    Posts
    1,232
    Thanks
    333
    Thanked 885 Times in 760 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ciderdrinker View Post
    Has it ever been said how Kripke's master plan would have come together without the inclusions of angel? I'd be fascinated to know, because I can't see how they'd have managed it without the angels (i.e. Zachariah) manipulating things.
    Well, I can only say what I heard about it. My knowledge is based on one of Kripke's interviews in the SPN magazine and some convention reports. I am sure there are differing versions out there, though. As far as I know the original plan was for Sam to go darkside (post-Mystery Spot) in order to save Dean from his deal. Against his brother's express wishes, of course, creating a severe rift between the brothers. Dean would then have have needed to hunt his brother down and kill him, as he had promised to John. So, pretty depressive stuff, although who knows if Kripke wouldn't have changed his mind about the ending further down the road, especially if the show was renewed for S5 and beyond. I am really torn. On the one hand this ending would have been entirely too bleak for me, even though it would have been consistent at least. On the other hand, I hate the angel mythology and what it did to the overall direction of the show.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •