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Thread: The Road So Far: All Seasons Discussion

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    Library Researcher Tranquillity's Avatar
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    What is your favourite relationship on the show?
    (Please answer discussing your favourite romantic i.e where two characters have at the very least dated rather than familial or friendship bonds)

    Okay, I'll admit it; I'm a big Dean/Lisa fan. I really like the character of Lisa and their relationship. And I hope they go back to it one day and at least sort out that whole mind-wipe thing because, while a good narrative device, it is a huge violation of both Lisa and Ben. I think that the writers are probably keeping her up their sleeve for the ultimate end of the series **fingers crossed**
    So why do I like this relationship? I like that he remembered her fondly for years after their first "bendy" encounter. I like that in The Kids are Alright she likes him more after she finds out the truth about who he really is and what he does, contrasting her to just about every other woman he ever meets. I love the first part of his dream in Dream a little Dream of Me. I love that he thinks of her in 99 Problems while he watches the 'war wedding' and then goes to see her at the end when he is on the brink of saying "yes" to Michael. For me, they did a good job of establishing that Lisa and Dean had a loving, trusting and honest relationship both during the year that we didn't see and then afterwards...until Sam shows up. Soulless Sam really messes everything up with the vampire bite and the mind games. I kind of love that scene in You Can't Handle the Truth when Dean beats the crap out of Soulless Sam for f**king everything up. As much as I hate the mind wipe as a violation, I think that Dean did it because he loved Ben and Lisa that much. He didn't want Ben to end up a hunter, he didn't want Lisa to be in danger. He believes that he brought nothing but bad things into their lives and that he was being selfish for wanting them in his. Wiping their minds is his way of ensuring that he doesn't go back to them in moment of weakness. And he didn't just forget about them either; Dean in season seven (and season eight) is a man in mourning because he's lost his family.

    What is your least favourite relationship on the show?
    (Again keep your answers to romantic relationships. Relationships that were hinted at but there was never anything made of such as Dean/Jo can be included)

    probably Sam/Amelia. Mainly, and this is very shallow of me I know, because I don't like the actress who plays her. I kind of hope that the fan theories I see floating around that she is a figment of Sam's imagination turn out to have some substance.

    Other Relationships?
    (Are there any other non-canon relationships you feel strongly about for good or for will. Perhaps a fanon relationship such as Wincest and Destiel, or a guest star you feel had amazing chemistry with the boys and would love to see return one day as end game for one of the brothers.)

    I would like to see Sarah from Provenance come back. She was cool.

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    I don't get wet Bittersweettwit's Avatar
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    It seems that every time I read an SN interview lately the comment section is full of disillusioned with Sam and Dean fans who are resentful of their favourites treatment from the writers. The Dean fans seem to resent that Sam has been given a more prominent place in the mytharc full of comments along the lines of "And Dean gets to sit and worry about Sam, making burgers and taking his temperature". While Sam fans resent that Sam for the most part is isolated with Dean being the one to make emotional connections to characters such as Benny, Castiel and Charlie... So I figured I'd post here to see what the thoughts of Buffyforums is on this

    Personally, I can see where both sides are coming from to an extent although I also can see the weaknesses of both approaches. I would agree that Sam often seems to get the action paced stuff that would seem most exciting to the general audience especially not to be sexist, but males like myself He is the boy with the demon blood, he's the one who killed Lilith, he played the most active role in taking down Lucifer etc. I think the reason for this is that in some ways the writers make Sam the most associated with the supernatural. On the other hand as someone who loves Sam I would also say that this means the show does not make Sam that accessible at times which is made clear by the fact that when the brothers argue in spite of the fact both are leads and should be equally relatable it tends to be 90% side with Dean and 10% side with Sam. The reason for this is I feel the show does not often take the time to show Sam's side of things which means unless you have a similar personality to Sam when he makes a particular decision / shows certain emotions (for example I totally get his resentment of Dean in the first half of season eight. I love my sisters, I really do, but if they started judging me and telling me how I should live the rest of my life without regards for my feelings the way Dean did with Sam I'd be pretty damned resentful too) Sam fans have extra work to put in to make themselves relate to him!

    Dean on the other hand is the brother the show uses to represent humanity! He's the character whose head the audience can really get into and fully understand things which make him tick such as his deep commitment to those he considers family, his abandonment issues, his lack of self-esteem and tendency to take the blame for things which are not actually his fault. This makes him easier to relate to, easier to invest in! We also get to see Dean connect stronger with characters outside the brothers he has a 'profound bond' with Castiel, Benny is his brother in arms from purgatory, Charlie is the little sister he never had. On the flip side for those who are more interested in the action and the myth-arc aspect of the show this can be seen as pretty boring and an under use of Dean who they complain should be allowed to do more things like the trials rather than spending so much time worrying about Sam and Castiel respectively...

    To sum up this rambling spiel basically I understand where both are coming from and I think the writers consciously make Sam the supernatural brother and Dean the humanity. I think both have their advantages and their weaknesses which means one brother isn't overall treated better than the other although I do agree I wish the writers at times would make the effort to make both brothers equally representative of the mytharc and humanity rather than separate their roles
    Last edited by Bittersweettwit; 02-05-13 at 09:43 PM.
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    I don't get wet Bittersweettwit's Avatar
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    So I saw this interesting head-canon that I had honestly never considered, but it kinda makes sense so I figured I'd see who on here agrees with it and who doesn't and their reasons...

    1. Do you agree that John used young Sam and Dean in Something Wicked as bait for the strigta? That the episode was meant to parallel Sam and Dean's approach to using a kid as bait with John's? That while Sam and Dean got the kids consent and collaborated with them to ensure their safety as much as possible, John left the boys on their own and took a bigger risk. Or do you think that such a theory is just the fandom bashing John?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    So I saw this interesting head-canon that I had honestly never considered, but it kinda makes sense so I figured I'd see who on here agrees with it and who doesn't and their reasons...

    1. Do you agree that John used young Sam and Dean in Something Wicked as bait for the strigta? That the episode was meant to parallel Sam and Dean's approach to using a kid as bait with John's? That while Sam and Dean got the kids consent and collaborated with them to ensure their safety as much as possible, John left the boys on their own and took a bigger risk. Or do you think that such a theory is just the fandom bashing John?
    Well, I always believed that to be true. The facts just don't leave that many alternative readings of the situation. John knew that he hunted a monster that targetted young siblings, specifically, and he moved his children right into the hot zone, even though he could have just dropped them off at Bobby's or Jim's, far away from the Shtriga's hunting grounds. I daresay that a hunter of John's calibre knew what he was doing with that choice. And it can hardly be a coincidence that he stormed back into the room in the exact moment the Shtriga attacked Sam. I think John believed that taking a calculated risk with his own children to hunt down a child killer was a justified decision. I don't think that is John bashing, though. For me, the show has consistently shown that John tended to put his own needs as a hunter above the needs of his children, and using them as bait falls into that category.

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    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    Well, I always believed that to be true. The facts just don't leave that many alternative readings of the situation. John knew that he hunted a monster that targetted young siblings, specifically, and he moved his children right into the hot zone, even though he could have just dropped them off at Bobby's or Jim's, far away from the Shtriga's hunting grounds. I daresay that a hunter of John's calibre knew what he was doing with that choice. And it can hardly be a coincidence that he stormed back into the room in the exact moment the Shtriga attacked Sam. I think John believed that taking a calculated risk with his own children to hunt down a child killer was a justified decision. I don't think that is John bashing, though. For me, the show has consistently shown that John tended to put his own needs as a hunter above the needs of his children, and using them as bait falls into that category.
    I had never actually thought of it that way and then as soon as I read the theory it made a startlingly large amount of sense . Do you think then that is why John was so harsh on Dean when he found out about him leaving Sam alone for a while? It wasn't so much that Dean disobeyed as young kids are prone to do at times, but that he was relying on Dean to protect Sam if he was too late at arriving and suddenly realised how close he actually was to losing one of his children that night due to his own negligence by gambling the boys lives like that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    I had never actually thought of it that way and then as soon as I read the theory it made a startlingly large amount of sense . Do you think then that is why John was so harsh on Dean when he found out about him leaving Sam alone for a while? It wasn't so much that Dean disobeyed as young kids are prone to do at times, but that he was relying on Dean to protect Sam if he was too late at arriving and suddenly realised how close he actually was to losing one of his children that night due to his own negligence by gambling the boys lives like that?
    Well, I think it was a little bit of both. As a marine, John was big on obedience and I have no doubt that Dean going against his express orders genuinely angered him. But I also think that his anger was mixed with relief, fear and guilt at realising how close he had come to losing his youngest son due to his own choices. However, that doesn't change the fact that, afterwards, he never talked to Dean about this incidence again and rather allowed his oldest son to beat himself up over failing Sam and John than ease his guilt and assure him of his father's continued love and respect.
    Last edited by galathea; 08-05-13 at 12:06 AM.

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    Making Something Wicked about John parallels dilutes the Dean parallels with the young boy protecting his sibling. So no, I dont see the show meaning to imply John used the kids as bait like Dean was forced to do.

    John told the boys to stay out of sight. It wasnt until Dean came out three days later that the shtriga found them. If John wanted them used as bait he would have had them making their presence known.

    John taught the boys about the supernatural and he taught them about how to defend themselves. It doesnt make sense he would not have told Dean that they were being used as bait. He has always kept his children close because he loves them and feels he can best protect them. So having them in town with him on a hunt doesnt appear out of the ordinary.

    In fact, I find it more likely that the shtriga attacked John's kids simply to rattle the hunter that was close on his trail. Because that is exactly what it did. John made a six hour round trip to drop the boys off at Pastor Jim's before coming back to try to hunt the shtriga.

    There are numerous reasons that John could have showed up in time to save Sam. Most obvious is John was a good hunter and was close on the trail. Two, John could have realized the shtriga was after his boys. Third, John could have realized something was wrong because he called the room and Dean didnt answer because he was out.

    The idea that John was using the kids as bait and didnt show up in time to kill the shtriga shows more ineptitude as a hunter than we know of John. Besides if John was watching the room because the kids were bait, wouldnt he have seen Dean leave the room and be gone for hours?

    I think the episode shows a human side of John. John realizes how much he screwed up and immediately does the right thing by his children. Even though his choice to not follow the shtriga out the window to see if it was injured and finish it would result in tens of kids being killed. John's choice to save Dean and Sam rather than other innocent kids is what weighs on Dean.

    Sam makes comment about John doesnt let monsters get away before Dean finally tells the story. So John leaving the trail to save his kids above all else is the truth presented in the episode. If John was just about killing the monster he would have pursued it or let Sam's life force get taken so he could have the chance of the shtriga coming back for Dean since the creature liked to work through siblings.

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    I don't get wet Bittersweettwit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ehlwyen View Post
    If John was just about killing the monster he would have pursued it or let Sam's life force get taken so he could have the chance of the shtriga coming back for Dean since the creature liked to work through siblings.
    It was very interesting to hear the other side of the spectrum! I'm not entirely sure where I stand on this one I'll have to rewatch the episode

    I just wanted to comment though that I don't believe Chris or anyone else who subscribes to this theory are trying to imply that John doesn't love his kids and would go as far as letting Sam's life force get taken which increases the chances of Sam's death exponentially that would of course go against canon where he shows his love for his kids by making the ultimate sacrifice In my Time of Dying.

    That was why I asked whether those who follow this theory believe that the reason John was so harsh on Dean for leaving the motel room was possibly due to the fact that he had been relying on Dean to protect Sam on the off chance he didn't get there on time and he suddenly realised what a stupid mistake gambling the kids like that. Perhaps if he was using them as bait there was a certain amount of transference in the anger he showed towards Dean and realising his mistake would explain his immediate protective attitude of getting them out of the way
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    I don't get wet Bittersweettwit's Avatar
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    Continued from the VIP - a general discussion about the possibility of a human Cas.

    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    You know, if even I consider the likelihood of something like that happening, I'd say the chances are not that bad, actually.
    I guess the last few episodes of season 8 and their treatment of Castiel have my cynic levels at an all time high. I just can't see these writers giving up the opportunity to use Castiel as a solution to the problem when they have the brothers confront a powerful foe... That would actually require some skill on their parts as it would require an ability to write intelligently by having the brothers use their own wits and skills. Of course as Taxi Driver shows Castiel alone is certainly not the blame for this team of writers laziness /ineptness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    Spoiler:
    Something Misha said at the Rome con has apparently convinced people that the human!Cas thing is not happening.

    Which I'm starting to think it's for the best. On a different show, a fallen Cas would present an interesting opportunity to explore the nature of being human through the eyes of a former angel who has to adapt to his new condition. But it would require careful storytelling and commitment.

    On this show, Cas wouldn't get any of that, because (as the brother only fans like to repeat ad nauseam) he is not the star of the show, and the show is not about him, so there would be little time to actually explore such a storyline in a serious way. What we would get is idiotic jokes of Cas making a fool of himself (like being all clumsy in a shop or not knowing what an egg is... are they serious???????? )

    So, I don't think Cas will fall, meaning that you can continue with your decision to drop the show!
    I'm in total agreement with this! Not only would they not be willing to give up an easy solution to their problems as I outlined above to Chris, but it would require a level of commitment and character development that I quite frankly don't trust these writers with... They'd just emphasise the moronic clown aspect then rather than the gullible idiot who allows people such as Crowley and Metatron to appeal to his tendency towards arrogance by convincing him to do heinous things in the name of the greater good. *sigh*

    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    Or he could just have tried to deter fans. Or they could have misunderstood him. I think it would make sense, given the set-up. Not that I would approve of that turn of events, but I am rather pessimistic (from my POV) at the moment.
    I don't think you should worry too much Chris Human or Angel I doubt the number of appearances Castiel gets will change one way or the other Even a human Cas will not suddenly start appearing in every episode or be considered a third main star of the show.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    I don't think you should worry too much Chris Human or Angel I doubt the number of appearances Castiel gets will change one way or the other Even a human Cas will not suddenly start appearing in every episode or be considered a third main star of the show.
    Well, I just think it makes sense. Why else would the writers give Castiel the heaven trials? That's something I would consider main character material. It's the perfect set-up to make Castiel human. It would also build a parallel to Sam and the hell trials, which seem to purify him of everything that isn't entirely human about him. So, yeah, I am pretty convinced that it will happen. And that increases the chances that Castiel will join the brothers on the road (or moves into the Batcave) and I loathe that thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    Well, I just think it makes sense. Why else would the writers give Castiel the heaven trials? That's something I would consider main character material. It's the perfect set-up to make Castiel human. It would also build a parallel to Sam and the hell trials, which seem to purify him of everything that isn't entirely human about him. So, yeah, I am pretty convinced that it will happen. And that increases the chances that Castiel will join the brothers on the road (or moves into the Batcave) and I loathe that thought.
    I honestly think you're worrying too much I'm not trying to degrade your worries just reassure you . As I said to fans at the time (from both side overly excited / overly worried) he has been upgraded to a series regular not a star and based on past history this means he's likely to appear in 12/23 of the season 14/23 at a push. So he has more of a role than other recurring characters, but he's still not a star like Sam and Dean .

    As for the trials... Based on the first trial it seems that the writers are going for a parallel in that while closing the gates of hell requires an act most would consider good (killing an evil creature such as a hell hound, saving an innocent soul from hell and curing a demon). Closing the gates of heaven in contrast requires vile acts (killing of an innocent) and so Castiel got the heaven trials as the writers were never going to give such a role which could turn the audience against a character to Dean.

    I imagine the heaven trials are going to get worse and could easily see something along the lines of

    Trial 1: Sam killed a hell hound, Cas kills an innocent.
    Trial 2: Sam saves an innocent soul from hell, Cas plucks a soul from heaven and throws it into the pit damning it for eternity.
    Trial 3: Sam cures a demon, Cas corrupts a human soul.

    Which of course is why I have no intentions of sticking around for S9 as I have no interest in watching such developments, nor am I interested in watching the confrontation between Cas and the brothers when they find out he's been doing such vile things
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    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    Well, I just think it makes sense. Why else would the writers give Castiel the heaven trials? That's something I would consider main character material. It's the perfect set-up to make Castiel human. It would also build a parallel to Sam and the hell trials, which seem to purify him of everything that isn't entirely human about him. So, yeah, I am pretty convinced that it will happen. And that increases the chances that Castiel will join the brothers on the road (or moves into the Batcave) and I loathe that thought.
    Cas joining the brothers in their activities is all I want from life, so I won't get it! You can sleep tight! They'll keep him around for about half the episodes, human or angel, and he'll conveniently disappear the rest of the time.

    There's speculation that
    Spoiler:
    what Cas has started in the latest episode is not a real trial, and that Metatron (or even Naomi through Metatron) is manipulating Cas in order to make him unknowingly prevent the fulfillment of the heaven trials.

    Metatron could be evil or full of bullsh*t, we don't know for sure that Cas is really undertaking the heaven trials yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    Cas joining the brothers in their activities is all I want from life, so I won't get it! You can sleep tight! They'll keep him around for about half the episodes, human or angel, and he'll conveniently disappear the rest of the time.

    There's speculation that
    Spoiler:
    what Cas has started in the latest episode is not a real trial, and that Metatron (or even Naomi through Metatron) is manipulating Cas in order to make him unknowingly prevent the fulfillment of the heaven trials.

    Metatron could be evil or full of bullsh*t, we don't know for sure that Cas is really undertaking the heaven trials yet.
    Actually,

    Spoiler:
    that's a pretty good suggestion. We know from the 8x23 promo that Naomi uses that angel controlling tool of hers on him at some point. What if she got to Metatron between 8x21 and 8x22? He does admit that he has been snopping around, or she even could have simply sensed his presence when he used his powers to save Kevin at the end of The Great Escapist. Of course completing heaven trials or no the writers are still making Castiel the idiot sucked in by others without learning from his lesson and developing as a person
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    Actually,

    Spoiler:
    that's a pretty good suggestion. We know from the 8x23 promo that Naomi uses that angel controlling tool of hers on him at some point. What if she got to Metatron between 8x21 and 8x22? He does admit that he has been snopping around, or she even could have simply sensed his presence when he used his powers to save Kevin at the end of The Great Escapist. Of course completing heaven trials or no the writers are still making Castiel the idiot sucked in by others without learning from his lesson and developing as a person
    Spoiler:
    The problem is that Cas is totally lost/confused after everything he went through (Godstiel, purgatory, Naomi's control, etc) and I think he is not thinking clearly. Instead of turning to Dean and Sam and relying on their help, he turns the other way. He is suicidal, and his guilt over his own past actions and his will (almost obsession) to make up for the things he did make him an easy target for manipulation. He believes Metatron because Metatron is giving him what he desperately wants, i.e. a way to fix what he broke.

    And in doing so he is repating the same mistakes that led to the season 6 disaster.

    I don't think this makes him an idiot, more like a tragic character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    As for the trials... Based on the first trial it seems that the writers are going for a parallel in that while closing the gates of hell requires an act most would consider good (killing an evil creature such as a hell hound, saving an innocent soul from hell and curing a demon). Closing the gates of heaven in contrast requires vile acts (killing of an innocent) and so Castiel got the heaven trials as the writers were never going to give such a role which could turn the audience against a character to Dean.

    I imagine the heaven trials are going to get worse and could easily see something along the lines of

    Trial 1: Sam killed a hell hound, Cas kills an innocent.
    Trial 2: Sam saves an innocent soul from hell, Cas plucks a soul from heaven and throws it into the pit damning it for eternity.
    Trial 3: Sam cures a demon, Cas corrupts a human soul.

    Which of course is why I have no intentions of sticking around for S9 as I have no interest in watching such developments, nor am I interested in watching the confrontation between Cas and the brothers when they find out he's been doing such vile things
    I can't see the writers do that. It simply makes no sense to me that closing the gates of heaven would require commiting one vile act after another. I intepret the heaven trials differently, though. I think they are designed to emphasise God's love for humanity. So you could see Castiel killing a nephilim as an act to rid the world of an angelic abomination. Not that I approve of that act, but still. An angel sacrificing his grace to become human would fall in a similar category. The fact that the episode title of 8x23 is
    Spoiler:
    Sacrifice
    plays into that assumption as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    I can't see the writers do that. It simply makes no sense to me that closing the gates of heaven would require commiting one vile act after another. I intepret the heaven trials differently, though. I think they are designed to emphasise God's love for humanity. So you could see Castiel killing a nephilim as an act to rid the world of an angelic abomination. Not that I approve of that act, but still. An angel sacrificing his grace to become human would fall in a similar category. The fact that the episode title of 8x23 is
    Spoiler:
    Sacrifice
    plays into that assumption as well.
    Well I would rather you be right than me of course so I guess we shall just have to wait until Wednesday to find out And it's going to be an awfully choppy, rushed process if they have him complete heaven's trials in the space of two episodes
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    An interesting meta on the writing process for a TV show I found on my friends list over at Livejournal that I thought everyone on here might be interested in reading and discussing

    “How a TV Show Episode Gets Written” - A PSA
    Hey everyone - So if you’re following me, you know that I’m not really a ‘fandom’ guy; more of a ‘casual viewer’, hence why I don’t post fandom-related things very often.

    However! I was having a conversation with Octoswan yesterday, who is an active member of the Tumblr-SPN community, about a lot of the drama going on with y’all lately and I checked out some of the posts related to said drama. I noticed that, in many cases, there were a lot of accusations and questions being thrown around about “the writers.”

    “Do the writers just not know how to write women??”

    “Why do the writers think that there always needs to be a romance??”

    “Why do the writers…?”

    And so on. What I started to notice was that there was a trend of blaming the writers for the problems that fans are having with the show or the direction it’s going, or for ‘baiting’ the fans in various ways, so as a screenwriter working in the industry (if not on SPN) I wanted to clear up a few misconceptions and notions about how a TV show episode gets written.

    (Disclaimer: Please note that this is based on how an hour-long drama is usually made and can vary from show to show)


    1. The showrunner(s) plot out the arc of the season; they look at where the characters are at the beginning, figure out where they want them by the end. Then they figure out a nice way of getting from point a to point b, trying to figure out what the core developments of each episode are going to be. Some of these could be incredibly specific (“Character A’s motivations change when he finds out ____ about Character B”) or very vague (“Character A begins to lose faith in his mission”).
    2. When it comes time for an episode to be written, the writers take whatever input they’re getting for that episode and begin the process of outlining the episode. What they’re given can vary wildly - Sometimes it’s vague or specific (see above) OR it might even be based on what guest star they’ve managed to get for that episode (‘We’ve gotten Big Star for an episode; write an episode for them”) In a lot of cases, a big guest star episode will usually not be an integral part of the plot of the rest of the season (aka “A Filler Episode”) because big name stars’ schedules are incredibly difficult to coordinate and thus their episodes needs to be able to “float” (ie. Be able to air at any point in the season without breaking the story)
    3. The writers all begin outlining together, looking at whatever input they’ve gotten and set about plotting out the episode. They start by breaking the story into acts (5-6 for the average hour-long drama), and then figuring out how to get the characters from point a to point b in the funniest/most exciting/scariest way possible while still trying to keep the bigger developments of the season in mind too.
    4. Once the outline has been nailed down, it begins getting sent around the ‘above-the-line’ people; producers, executives, etc. These people all give their notes, comments, and ideas. Spoiler alert: These ideas are not always good. Especially once you reach the executive level of a studio, many of these people view the success or failure of a show based purely on the numbers of people watching. If Show A is not getting the numbers that Show B is getting, then they give notes and advice on how to make Show A more like Show B, in hopes of getting those numbers up, even if it might not match exactly what Show A is ‘all about.’ These executives aren’t usually writers but they’ve been around them long enough to know terms like “B-plot” or “Raising the stakes” and so their notes might be things like “Make this episode sexier by sticking a love story B-plot in there!”, “We should kill off a character to raise the stakes”, “I know [Actor]’s agent. We should write them a character in this episode.”, etc. etc.
    5. After everyone’s given their notes, it all comes back to the writers again for a round of revisions. Now they’ve got to tweak and change their outline to match the stack of (sometimes contradictory) notes that they’ve gotten from all their bosses. They’ll work on it, tweak it, try to stick to their guns on some things, but sometimes compromises might have to be made. If there’s something big that the writers really want to make work, like an idea for the ending of a season or getting a certain guest star in a later episode, they need to keep their execs and producers happy and sometimes the easiest way to do that is a little compromise. (Example: If Mr. Executiveson said “You guys should really kill a character to raise the stakes” and the writers thendo it, Mr. Executiveson can tell everyone “That was my idea” and it’ll make him happy and thus more likely to give in to the writers on an issue later.)
    6. The revised outline will go back out again, get more notes, some people will be happy, some people will be pissed, and a second round of notes will be delivered. This continues over and over again as the deadline for actually writing the episode gets closer and closer until everyone is at least satisfied with where the episode stands.
    7. It’s important to note here that this is happening for multiple episodes at the same time. So when a big change happens in one episode it needs to be changed in all corresponding episodes - with all the notes and changes swirling around it can be harder than you think.
    8. FINALLY after an outline has been approved it gets handed over to the writer(s) who are actually writing the episode. This might be one of the writers who has been in the writer’s room this whole time OR it might be a guest writer just arriving on the scene. They sit down to actually write it, writing the actual dialogue, scenes, jokes etc. but almost all the plot decisions have already been made for them ahead of time in the aforementioned outlining process. That being said, if there’s something in the outline that this particular writer doesn’t like (eg. something that (s)he really fought against in the writer’s room) then (s)he might not give it as much work as it might need, or if there was something they really wanted in there (but got cut) they might try to subtly (or not-so-subtly) shoehorn it in anyway. That depends a lot on the ego of the writer, the politics of the writer’s room… in an ideal world it wouldn’t happen, but it totally does.
    9. After the episode gets written, there’s usually a round of revisions, the showrunners taking a look at it, the execs and producers given more notes before finally FINALLY it can be pronounced done and ready to shoot.


    Epilogue: The director then shoots the episode and may end up ignoring stuff or adding his own stuff in anyways. The writers are sometimes on set to defend things but not always.

    Another note: You’d think that if a show were successful or one of the biggest shows on the network then the execs would give them a little more breathing room right? Haha, nope. It’s usually exactly the opposite: The more successful a show is the more that everyone wants to be involved.

    So! That’s a little background info on the process of TV writing - It’s a lot of politics, a lot of compromises to keep important people happy, and it’s why sometimes things can seem inconsistent or certain things can fall through the cracks.

    What I’m trying to say with all this is that the problems you may be having with a show aren’t always the writers’ fault - They’re not out to upset fans or specifically trying to undo or invalidate your perceptions or “head canon”… They’re just trying to write a good show and navigate the crazy minefield that is TV show production.

    I hope this helps and that you learned something. If you liked it, “Reblog” it or do whatever it is you crazy Tumblrites do. :P

    Best,

    -Eric (@stirpicus on Twitter)

    SOURCE: here.
    For those who don't know Octoswan happens to be the room mate of Osiric Chau (Kevin)
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    Very well-written article about Dean and his role in the show. It said pretty much everything I've always thought, but way better than I could have expressed it.

    http://www.spoilertv.com/2013/06/sup...lation-on.html

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    ‘Supernatural’ Showrunner Hints at Bobby’s Return in Season 9 – Should He Come Back?



    In Supernatural season 8, fans saw the series return to its former glory. In season 9, Castiel (Misha Collins) will be returning with a (much) larger role than we was given last season. But what about Bobby (Jim Beaver)?

    For many fans of the series, Bobby’s death felt more like an awkward attempt at eliciting some emotion during the “Leviathan incident” (that shall not be spoke of) instead of a realistic departure for one of the series’ favorite characters. And though Bobby did receive an emotional, well-written farewell in season 7, and a surprise saving from Hell in season 8, fans still wonder whether or not we’ll see the official return of Bobby sometime soon. After all, Heaven and Hell haven’t been an endpoint for any character in quite some time. (Plus, the season 8 finale did return to Bobby’s junkyard, albeit briefly.)

    When it comes to bringing Bobby – or anyone else – back from the dead, it’s showrunner Jeremy Carver who makes that decision. Luckily, we had a chance to speak with him about all things Heaven and Hell. Here’s how he decides who to bring back:

    I never think, ‘Oh wow, who can I bring back?’ I always think of it in the sense of, ‘Oh wow, who would be right for this particular story.’

    So does this mean that Bobby will be “right” to bring back in Supernatural season 9? Perhaps. According to Carver, a path has been created to allow them to do just that, if they so choose:

    You know, we were saying all season, ‘You never know what’s going to happen to Bobby,’ and I think we’ve found a – I can’t believe I’m going to say this word – believable way to bring him back from Hell. I think now that Bobby is presumably in Heaven that it certainly does open up the question of whether or not we might see him again.’
    Although this isn’t really a confirmation of Bobby’s return, there’s one thing that’s certain: Bobby is an important character in the story that is Supernatural. It may have been John Winchester (Jeffrey Dean Morgan) who helped lay the foundation for Sam and Dean to do their hunting, but it was Bobby who took over, stood in as a father figure and helped them along the way. Though Sam and Dean could have continued with their father, the relationship could have – and likely would have – slowed Sam and Dean’s character evolution.

    With Supernatural season 9 setting itself up for a Heavenly battle, thanks to “Marv” (Curtis Armstrong), there’s more than enough opportunities available to bring Bobby back, somehow. And if they do, in whatever way they can think up, it’s doubtful that fans of the series will complain about how it was done, they’ll just be happy that it actually happened.

    http://screenrant.com/supernatural-season-9-bobby/
    What do you guys think of the at least for now remote chance of Bobby coming back? Personally I'm not really keen on the idea even though I loved the character! I feel it would devalue his death and indeed death in general on this show to not make at least one main characters death permanent. Plus I really did not enjoy how he was written in Taxi Driver and fear they would just ruin my enjoyment of the character even further
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    What do you guys think of the at least for now remote chance of Bobby coming back? Personally I'm not really keen on the idea even though I loved the character! I feel it would devalue his death and indeed death in general on this show to not make at least one main characters death permanent. Plus I really did not enjoy how he was written in Taxi Driver and fear they would just ruin my enjoyment of the character even further
    Oh man, lord knows I loved Bobby dearly. He was my third favourite character of the show, but what's dead should stay dead. His farewell in Death's Door was momentous, and I enjoyed his 'angry ghost' storyline, but bringing him back would cheapen the character and his development. I was very unhappy with Bobby's appearance in Taxi Driver and I'd rather remember him as the great character he was from S1-S7 than see him run into the ground by the current writers. Besides, I think the show would do well expanding on other characters in the brothers' lives, like Garth or Charlie or Jodie.

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