Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21

Thread: 8x19 Taxi Driver

  1. #1
    Admin Ehlwyen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    3,338
    Thanks
    1,582
    Thanked 1,285 Times in 724 Posts

    Default 8x19 Taxi Driver

    Wow. That was an episode. I live spoiler free so it was a real surprise all the characters that showed up for the episode and how things unfolded.

    I thought the idea of rogue reapers was an interesting idea. I would have loved to see Tessa again, but it was a nice twist that the reaper they found was the one who came for Bobby...and then he revealed Bobby went downstairs instead of into nothingness or to heaven.

    I loved that Sam and the reaper had to pass through purgatory first. It was also a nice touch by the writers that the backdoor to hell was located at a junction of a stream and three trees. I was quite apprehensive at getting a look at hell. It has been elusively portrayed on the show and i appreciated that abstact nature. However, I enjoyed the traditional portayal of dark, red, prison cells, and twisted tortured souls. If hell is to only briefly appear in one episode, then I guess it need only evoke what we all expect. It was at this point that i really craved Supernatural doing two parter episodes rather than trying to stuff everything into a single episode. A fantastic episode it was, but it could have contained a lot more epicness, emotion, and tension to have been spread out.

    The part with Dean and Benny brought tears to my eyes. It really touched me that Benny was willing to die for Dean. It is quite tragic how Benny lost all his humans in his life and therefore had little attachment to the world but was still trying to live in it. His girlfriend was turned into a vamp and he had to kill her, his granddaughter was traumatized by him having to kill to save her, and then even Dean wasnt there. Of course, Benny was going to do a favor for the only being that he still cared for. Ugh, Dean's description of how things were going to be different filled my head with beautiful images although it was always obvious Benny wasnt coming out. I am going to be forever mad if Benny is just left in purgatory. That goes on my list of loose ends like Adam stuck in the box with Lucifer...and the Trickster/Gabriel needing to show back up (i refuse to believe he did anything but fake his own death again).

    Kevin's mental state makes me so sad how being a prophet is wearing on him. I was quite unsure during the episode whether it was just his head or Crowley was actually whispering to him. Especially the end scene, which seemed so real, and tragic about his mom. I was relieved when the Winchesters arrived the glass windows were intact, although it is disappointing that time will have to be wasted on finding Kevin so they can figure out this final trial. I am ready for Crowley to be defeated once and for all.

    Lydia made the punch!

  2. #2
    Thread Saviour Francy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    SG Command
    Posts
    1,036
    Thanks
    716
    Thanked 1,629 Times in 1,104 Posts

    Default

    Well... that was very weak. Awfully weak.

    I was very disappointed with this episode. It felt so rushed.... as usual with this show as of late, the writers try to cram everything myth-arc related in one episode with 3,520 guest stars, with the results that everything feels rushed and nothing is satisfying. What could/should have been epic given the subject becomes underwhelming and pathos-less. In previous seasons, a quest like the one Sam undertakes in this episode would have taken, rightfully, several episodes... instead, now he is able to go to purgatory, hell and back in the space of half an hour. No anticipation, no urgency, no sense of danger, no... nothing. Complete, mortal flatness.

    What is worse, the writers keep crapping (can I use this word in the general forum?) all over their own mythology, continuity and canon. They are not even trying anymore. If the showrunner/writers/producers don't care about their own established mythology, why should I? I can no longer take this show seriously in any shape or form.

    Getting into Hell/Purgatory used to be bloody difficult, almost impossible. To save Dean from Hell it took a whole garrison of angels laying siege and fighting their way to him for almost 40 years. Here a mere, powerless human comes and goes undisturbed in less then 24 hours and gets a soul out. So bloody stupid.

    The plot holes/inconsistencies in this episode... How could Sam and Dean see a Reaper, when it has been clearly established so far that only supernatural creatures like angel and demons or the dead or the dying could see them??

    Castiel and Crowley were really incompentent in season 6... they spent all season trying to find Purgatory, which had been a secret place for eons... now it's so easy to find, reapers go their all the time to bring the souls to Hell (because there are portals to Hell in Purgatory).

    After a lovely stroll in Purgatory, without finding much resistance, Sam enters Hell, and he immediately finds Bobby's cell (you know, there are just billions of billions of souls/demons in hell... it's easy), which is unexplicably open, and Bobby (who seems fine and his old self despite having beein in hell for longer than Sam or Dean ever were) is just free to walk out, just like that. They kill a couple of stupid demons, just for show, and BAM! They are out of hell. Easy as pie!! Those angels, so ridiculous.. they couldn't even get a Dean Winchester out.

    The stupidity is making my head hurt.

    Also, in the space of 5 minutes Dean was able to realize that a) Sam wasn't coming back because the reaper was dead; b) He needed to find another way; c) He called Benny; d) he met with Benny. Am I supposed to think that Benny was magically and conveniently in the same place Dean was all the time?? Dean and Sam are always travelling across the US all the time... oh, well.

    This episode was a disaster, from a writing point of view. These two writers, with their terrible track record (execption: A Little Slice of Kevin, which I like) should never be allowed to write again. nepotism

    I didn't like that Dean sacrificed Benny for Sam (and I'm not even a Benny fan). The only thing that makes me feel better about it is that Benny deep down wanted to go back to Purgatory.

    And I'm sure we will see Benny again. That's not a definitive goodbye by any chance!!!

    I'm very bored with this one-note Crowley at this point, I'm ready for him to go. I'm unsure whether he was the real Crowley or an hallucination that Kevin saw at the end... I'm inclined to think it is the second one (as the place was clean and tidy when Sam and Dean got there, no broken windows whatsoever, unlike in the Kevin/Crowley scene). I think Kevin is losing it under the pressure of his situation, and therefore he ran.

    I had high hopes for this episode, and I was excited for it and the rest of the season. This episode killed any enthusiam and hope I had, because I've completely lost my faith in the writers...

    Was there anything I liked about Taxi Driver? I guess the thing that I liked most about this episode was the scene between Naomi and Dean. Great acting by Jensen and Amanda. Naomi is being very clever and cruel, sowing hints and doubts in Dean's mind, trying to turn Dean against Cas... bitch.

    I hope Dean doesn't fall for it, because I can't take any more Cas/Dean angst. Just let them sit down and have a talk, please.

    And now we have another three-week hiatus, in which I'll bitterly ruminate on everything that is wrong in the SN-world!
    Last edited by Francy; 04-04-13 at 11:40 AM.

    |LiveJournal| | |Tumblr|
    Icon by xiperita

  3. #3
    Admin Ehlwyen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    3,338
    Thanks
    1,582
    Thanked 1,285 Times in 724 Posts

    Default

    I agree with you on the oddity of the reaper being seen by Sam and Dean, and truly everyone else. I am assuming he bought that pizza from a regular store, and maybe even ran an actual taxi service. I always could really use more reaper mythology in the show. But the reaper was already breaking reaper rules by trafficking into hell, it is not unreasonable that not being seen by humans is a reaper civil rule, not a physical one.

    It seemed quick, but still it took Sam 24 hours of earth time to get through purgatory and hell and back to the meeting spot. Yeah, it wasnt 3 months of angels trying to rescue Dean from hell (the forty years was hell time). However, the angels went at the front gates not a secret door. Plus the angel higher ups wanted the apocalypse to happen, so they had to let Dean stay down there that long. They probably sabotaged their own forces so that they couldnt break through until after Dean did his part.

    I was surprised at the luck that Sam had of few creatures in Purgatory, but Dean also had Cas attracting Leviathan. Plus two episodes ago, Cas said Sam was molecularly changing so maybe his humanity isnt such a beacon to monsters in purgatory. Plus the reaper most likely brought him to within five minutes of the door. And the journey to the escape mountain was lead by Benny. I didnt find the timing unreasonable. Besides Dean had to drive all the way to Maine from Missouri(? I thought that was the license plate I saw on the taxi. I havent rewatched.). Thats at least another day of human time they spent in purgatory.

    As far as driving times on this show, they have been way skewed on this show since somewhere in S2-S3. Anytime they are at Bobby's house and then anywhere (other than his local town) in 3-4 hours is ridiculous. It is infuriating to me how the show has the Winchesters bounce from place to place when I know it takes 15-30 hours to make some of these short trips. So no, Benny being close enough to reach Dean in half a day isnt anything isolated to this episode.

    It is funny how we can both find the episode jam packed and better suited to be spread out over multiple episodes for epicness and emotional purposes but one of us really like it and the other hate it.

    Lydia made the punch!

  4. #4
    Thread Saviour Francy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    SG Command
    Posts
    1,036
    Thanks
    716
    Thanked 1,629 Times in 1,104 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ehlwyen View Post
    I agree with you on the oddity of the reaper being seen by Sam and Dean, and truly everyone else. I am assuming he bought that pizza from a regular store, and maybe even ran an actual taxi service. I always could really use more reaper mythology in the show. But the reaper was already breaking reaper rules by trafficking into hell, it is not unreasonable that not being seen by humans is a reaper civil rule, not a physical one.

    It seemed quick, but still it took Sam 24 hours of earth time to get through purgatory and hell and back to the meeting spot. Yeah, it wasnt 3 months of angels trying to rescue Dean from hell (the forty years was hell time). However, the angels went at the front gates not a secret door. Plus the angel higher ups wanted the apocalypse to happen, so they had to let Dean stay down there that long. They probably sabotaged their own forces so that they couldnt break through until after Dean did his part.

    I was surprised at the luck that Sam had of few creatures in Purgatory, but Dean also had Cas attracting Leviathan. Plus two episodes ago, Cas said Sam was molecularly changing so maybe his humanity isnt such a beacon to monsters in purgatory. Plus the reaper most likely brought him to within five minutes of the door. And the journey to the escape mountain was lead by Benny. I didnt find the timing unreasonable. Besides Dean had to drive all the way to Maine from Missouri(? I thought that was the license plate I saw on the taxi. I havent rewatched.). Thats at least another day of human time they spent in purgatory.

    As far as driving times on this show, they have been way skewed on this show since somewhere in S2-S3. Anytime they are at Bobby's house and then anywhere (other than his local town) in 3-4 hours is ridiculous. It is infuriating to me how the show has the Winchesters bounce from place to place when I know it takes 15-30 hours to make some of these short trips. So no, Benny being close enough to reach Dean in half a day isnt anything isolated to this episode.

    It is funny how we can both find the episode jam packed and better suited to be spread out over multiple episodes for epicness and emotional purposes but one of us really like it and the other hate it.
    See, I can rationalize a few plot holes and inconsistances here and there in many ways, and infact I don't usually bitch about this stuff. There's always something that doesn't perfectly add up, in every episode.

    But when I am asked to practically rationalize the whole episode because of lazy writing by people who are payed to write this stuff and who clearly haven't done their homework, that's where the annoyance takes over.

    I'm not even a very expert SN fans, and if I notice the continuity/canon issues, it means they are too big to ignore.

    So, yeah, I really hated this trial episode (while I totally loved the first one). I hope it's going to get better from here, but I'm not holding my breath.

    |LiveJournal| | |Tumblr|
    Icon by xiperita

  5. #5
    Bad Boy Lover Cori's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Westeros
    Posts
    1,478
    Thanks
    636
    Thanked 595 Times in 484 Posts

    Default

    Oh man, the scene between Dean and Benny turned me into a sobbing mess! Jensen and Ty once again knocked it out of the park. You could feel how close Dean and Benny were in that scene, what with Dean actually tearing up and the whole scene being so emotional between the two. Dean even sort of apologised for abandoning Benny. I'm glad we at least got that because Dean's decision to cut Benny out of his life always felt very wrong to me and I'm glad that Dean realised that he had treated Benny like shit. I'm so sad and disappointed that the writers had Benny sacrifice himself. I enjoyed their friendship immensely and seeing such a beautifully acted scene between them in this episode makes it even harder for me to accept that at least for the time being Benny won't be around anymore. At least Benny didn't turn bad or some crap like that and he showed what a true and loyal friend he was to Dean to the end. And at least Dean didn't burn his bones so there is still a chance that he might come back some day, if he survives that long in purgatory that is. I also did not like that Benny did the whole thing for Sam who always treated him like crap. Yes I get that Benny really did it for Dean because he knows how much Sam means to Dean and he also did it because life on earth was not treating him kindly but it still completely rubbed me the wrong way. Plus like everything else in this episode, Dean asking his favour of Benny and Benny agreeing to do it felt extremely rushed. I mean, this was a huge thing, a life-altering decision and Benny just made it in a matter of minutes. WTF? Sam of course changed his mind about Benny when it was too late, how very convenient. They couldn't have shown Sam seeing that Benny was really a good friend to Dean and admitting that he was wrong about Benny without getting rid of the character altogether? Would that have been so difficult? Once again Dean loses a friend, which sucks beyond words. I really don't know how much more poor Dean can take. I'm so sick and tired of the writers always getting rid of characters that I like, Jo, Ellen, Meg, Pamela, Viktor Henderson, Bobby, Benny, etc. etc.

    Other than that, I completely agree with Francy's review. The whole episode was rushed and the stuff happening in this episode should have been stretched to several episodes. You had hardly time to breathe while watching this episode and you had no time to actually consider all the many ramifications of everything happening on screen (and neither had the characters), it was just one plot point and/or twist after other and personally I found that exhausting and it didn't give the episode enough depth. I fully agree with all the glaring continuity issues and canon problems Francy listed, they made me roll my eyes or at times even mad while watching the episode. Even I as a non-Cas fan did not get why the boys did not first at least try to contact Cas about getting into hell.

    Furthermore, I would like to add another canon issue I have with this episode. Since when is Bobby Singer advocating bringing someone back from the dead? What's dead should stay dead and Bobby gave Dean so much crap when he brought Sam back in the s2 finale. Now he's suddenly all like "oh I'd like to hang out on earth for a while"? Also, how long has Bobby exactly been in hell? He showed some physical wear and tear but mentally and emotionally he seemed to be hardly affected at all.

    Oh and another canon issue I had was Sam's "So this is hell?" line. Wasn't the cage Sam was stuck in with Lucifer in hell? So shouldn't Sam be able to tell that the place he and Ajay landed in is not hell?

    One of the few things I liked in this episode was Bobby telling Sam that his insisting on him and Dean having an agreement about not looking for each other when dead/in hell/in purgatory etc. was full of crap, that it was a non-agreement. Bobby implied that Sam should have at least tried to look for Dean and since I have never understood and/or liked it that Sam never looked for his brother that was so good to hear! It still does not make up for the crappy first half of the season of course and I still don't buy any of Sam's explanations but it felt good to hear Bobby chew Sam out. He has always been the voice of reason in the boys' lives and I was happy to see him in this role again. And yeah he also dissed Benny and Dean being friends with Benny but of course Bobby did not know the whole story and only saw a vampire so I'm gonna let this one slide.

    I also liked that Naomi finally did something useful for a change, namely sending Bobby to heaven. Of course I still don't trust her one bit and I highly suspect that she only helped out the boys there to gain their trust and turn them against Cas.

    So overall this episode was a mess and personally I'm very mad at the writers for getting rid of (I won't say killing off!) yet another character that I was really fond of.

  6. #6
    I don't get wet Bittersweettwit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    With Mulder and Scully!
    Posts
    745
    Thanks
    1,014
    Thanked 404 Times in 349 Posts

    Default

    I originally PMed you Cori since I didn't want to spam the VIP and it would have looked weird me randomly replying to a post not everyone could see, but anyways

    Having now actually watched the episode myself I remain more convinced than ever that they are going to be bringing Benny back if not this season definitely next season...

    I mean just look at how the episode emphasizes that Naomi who wants an allegiance with Dean is capable of rescuing people from Purgatory and then a further demonstration of her power was the little soul trick at the end by saving Bobby's soul from Crowley so I wouldn't give up hope

    Also I'm sure you'll not particularly care but this episode helped to resolve most of the issues I had with the Dean and Benny friendship. I mean I'm still not invested in it, but it doesn't bug me like before

    (Oh and woohoo 500th post)

    EDIT: The final ratings for this weeks episode are in it had 1.90 million viewers and a 0.8 in the demo. That is the shows worst viewership since Blood Brother and the worst rating since Hunteri Heroici
    Last edited by Bittersweettwit; 04-04-13 at 09:51 PM.
    Livejournal

    Avatar made by Shameless666 of Livejournal

  7. #7
    Admin Ehlwyen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    3,338
    Thanks
    1,582
    Thanked 1,285 Times in 724 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post
    Oh man, the scene between Dean and Benny turned me into a sobbing mess! Jensen and Ty once again knocked it out of the park. You could feel how close Dean and Benny were in that scene, what with Dean actually tearing up and the whole scene being so emotional between the two. Dean even sort of apologised for abandoning Benny. I'm glad we at least got that because Dean's decision to cut Benny out of his life always felt very wrong to me and I'm glad that Dean realised that he had treated Benny like shit. I'm so sad and disappointed that the writers had Benny sacrifice himself. I enjoyed their friendship immensely and seeing such a beautifully acted scene between them in this episode makes it even harder for me to accept that at least for the time being Benny won't be around anymore. At least Benny didn't turn bad or some crap like that and he showed what a true and loyal friend he was to Dean to the end. And at least Dean didn't burn his bones so there is still a chance that he might come back some day, if he survives that long in purgatory that is. I also did not like that Benny did the whole thing for Sam who always treated him like crap. Yes I get that Benny really did it for Dean because he knows how much Sam means to Dean and he also did it because life on earth was not treating him kindly but it still completely rubbed me the wrong way. Plus like everything else in this episode, Dean asking his favour of Benny and Benny agreeing to do it felt extremely rushed. I mean, this was a huge thing, a life-altering decision and Benny just made it in a matter of minutes. WTF?
    Yeah me too! This scene between Dean and Benny made me tear up and reach for tissues each time I watched. Dean was visibly moved and regretful realizing how not being there had affected Benny. I found this a pivotal moment for Dean. He found out how important he was to someone else rather than him needing others. Benny not choosing to come back could easily destroy Dean in making him continue to believe that sacrificing for others and fighting until death is all he has to look forward to in his life. But I understand Benny's easy choice to leave Earth and go back to purgatory. He really seemed to be actively struggling when Dean called him. Dean is the only person on Earth he still has affection and ties to. And Dean gave him an opportunity to do something useful and good again and not be in a position where he isnt always tempted to drink humans. Honestly, I think Benny wants Dean to be the one to come and rescue him at some point so that way he would know that things would for sure be different when he came back to Earth.

    Benny survived in Purgatory before finding Dean, so I think Benny has confidence in his survival skills. He made it sound like escaping society would be a good vacation for him to make him realize at some point how much he appreciated Earth again.


    Sam of course changed his mind about Benny when it was too late, how very convenient. They couldn't have shown Sam seeing that Benny was really a good friend to Dean and admitting that he was wrong about Benny without getting rid of the character altogether?
    Did Sam really change his mind? At best I think Benny's selflessness of not hitching a ride back is what made Sam have some respect for him. Sam seemed begrudging when it was Benny's turn to do the ritual and seemed a little relieved when he tossed the axe at Benny.

    I did really enjoy the scene where Benny appears in Purgatory and Sam is smart enough to recognize it isnt a coincidence he appeared and holds Bobby off. It definitely adds a beautiful tragedy to Benny that he can do something as selfless as letting himself be killed to save others and then he ungraciously treated by those people.

    Even I as a non-Cas fan did not get why the boys did not first at least try to contact Cas about getting into hell.
    This I dont get. Havent they already been trying to contact Cas without any luck? Besides I feel like an angel in hell would set off some security alert which would not allow the leisure Sam had to search for Bobby. Maybe I have watched too much Charmed. Speaking of which, Cas is dangerously become to easy a plot device. I do not want a show where everything can be solved by relying on Cas. Need to be across the country in a couple minutes, ask Cas. Need ancient oil, ask Cas. Need to be healed and not die, ask Cas. Charmed had this problem and it took a lot of gravity out of the later seasons.


    Furthermore, I would like to add another canon issue I have with this episode. Since when is Bobby Singer advocating bringing someone back from the dead? What's dead should stay dead and Bobby gave Dean so much crap when he brought Sam back in the s2 finale. Now he's suddenly all like "oh I'd like to hang out on earth for a while"? Also, how long has Bobby exactly been in hell? He showed some physical wear and tear but mentally and emotionally he seemed to be hardly affected at all.
    Well, he mentioned that Sam was the 200th Sam sent to his cell that day. Sounds like the demon torturers are realllllllly uncreative now that Alistair is gone.

    However, he changed his mind about staying dead, so obviously he was in hell long enough for that. Idk, I think the surprise of it all not ending in sweet oblivion definitely would be a perspective changer.

    Personally I find 5.07 The Curious Case of Dean Winchester the catalyst. And Dead Man Wear Plaid brings forward his emotional weight he carries of not saving his wife 20 years ago which is where his what's dead stays dead mantra first originated. But later in S5 we see Bobby selling his soul as his real beginnings of realizing the Winchester way of sacrificing all to save loved ones comes out of personal strength not lack of self worth like he blames Dean in S2.

    I was more shocked at him calling it a "non-agreement". Hasnt Dean used this wording at some point? Bobby's words sounded so familiar but I couldnt recall the scene.


    Oh and another canon issue I had was Sam's "So this is hell?" line. Wasn't the cage Sam was stuck in with Lucifer in hell? So shouldn't Sam be able to tell that the place he and Ajay landed in is not hell?
    I never understood Lucifer's prison as being in hell. If it was, most demons wouldnt have considered him a myth. Even if Lucifer's prison was in some part of hell, it was completely isolated from the rest of hell. Not to mention Sam's memories seemed more of just an existence of pain and flames and not a semi physical place like Dean experienced.

    Anyway, the Hell pictured in this episode was so standard, I am going to imagine different areas of hell having different landscapes.


    One of the few things I liked in this episode was Bobby telling Sam that his insisting on him and Dean having an agreement about not looking for each other when dead/in hell/in purgatory etc. was full of crap, that it was a non-agreement. Bobby implied that Sam should have at least tried to look for Dean and since I have never understood and/or liked it that Sam never looked for his brother that was so good to hear! It still does not make up for the crappy first half of the season of course and I still don't buy any of Sam's explanations but it felt good to hear Bobby chew Sam out. He has always been the voice of reason in the boys' lives and I was happy to see him in this role again. And yeah he also dissed Benny and Dean being friends with Benny but of course Bobby did not know the whole story and only saw a vampire so I'm gonna let this one slide.
    I did enjoy Bobby chewing Sam out, although I was kinda laughing at the previous exchange:
    Bobby: "Dean spent a year in this place?"
    Sam: "Fighting and fighting, all day, everyday"
    Bobby:"Must have been hell on you..."

    I get where Bobby is coming from but still, poor Dean. I really loved that Sam was the one who had to visit both of these places where Dean spent extended sentences. I hope he gained a better understanding of the trauma Dean endured and emotionally withstood.

    Lydia made the punch!

  8. #8
    Roadie galathea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Offworld
    Posts
    1,232
    Thanks
    333
    Thanked 885 Times in 760 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post
    Once again Dean loses a friend, which sucks beyond words. I really don't know how much more poor Dean can take. I'm so sick and tired of the writers always getting rid of characters that I like, Jo, Ellen, Meg, Pamela, Viktor Henderson, Bobby, Benny, etc. etc.
    I feel that, in a way, Benny's death is worse than others. Not because I was more invested in him than in the other recurring characters that died over the years, but because I find the writers' treatment of Benny appalling. The other characters were part of the Winchesters life for a while, we saw them grow into friends and family for the boys and eventually they became casualties of the war the angels and demons waged on Sam and Dean. It made sense and their deaths often served a purpose. Benny, however, was never treated like a real character by the writers; he was specifically designed to have something they could use to hurt Dean. They didn't even make an effort to show us how Benny and Dean became friends, they just claimed their friendship into existence, and the only reason it worked at all for me is because Ty Olsson and Jensen sold me on the characters' feelings for each other. Ultimately, the writers simply used Benny as a tool, first to drive a (completely contrived) wedge between Sam and Dean and then to heap further pain onto Dean when he has to sacrifice his friend for his brother. I don't think the writers have ever treated a character as callously as Benny. Well, maybe Adam, but that's it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post
    Since when is Bobby Singer advocating bringing someone back from the dead? What's dead should stay dead and Bobby gave Dean so much crap when he brought Sam back in the s2 finale. Now he's suddenly all like "oh I'd like to hang out on earth for a while"?
    Yeah, remember that Bobby's last words to Sam and Dean in Survival of the Fittest were: "When it's your time - go." So even as an angry spirit he seemed to have had more common sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post
    Oh and another canon issue I had was Sam's "So this is hell?" line. Wasn't the cage Sam was stuck in with Lucifer in hell? So shouldn't Sam be able to tell that the place he and Ajay landed in is not hell?
    The cage is located in hell, yes. We know that because Death tells Dean in Appointment in Samarra that he is going to hell to fetch Sam's soul. However, the cage is a hermetically sealed mystical prison within the depth of hell that even most demons do not know about. Remember, Casey told Dean in Sin City that most demons believe Lucifer to be a myth. And Azazel had to go through a particularly gruesome blood ritual to even be able to establish rudimentary communications with Lucifer in the cage. So, no, Sam would not be able to recognise hell.

  9. #9
    I don't get wet Bittersweettwit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    With Mulder and Scully!
    Posts
    745
    Thanks
    1,014
    Thanked 404 Times in 349 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ehlwyen View Post
    I was relieved when the Winchesters arrived the glass windows were intact, although it is disappointing that time will have to be wasted on finding Kevin so they can figure out this final trial. I am ready for Crowley to be defeated once and for all.
    I was expecting something like this since I remember reading somewhere that Jeremy Carver has said he intends to spread this story-line over the next three seasons. Of course they might close the gates to hell sometime in season 9 and then move the focus on closing the gates of heaven also

    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    Castiel and Crowley were really incompentent in season 6... they spent all season trying to find Purgatory, which had been a secret place for eons... now it's so easy to find, reapers go their all the time to bring the souls to Hell (because there are portals to Hell in Purgatory).
    What made it even more ridiculous was the source where this information came from a fricking crossroads demon! I mean had this been during Azazel or Lilith's reign as the leader of hell I could have dismissed it as a case of deals and their mechanics were not their forte, but Crowley was the frigging king of the crossroads long before he became the king of hell... If some lowly crossroads demon knew of the reaper and their ability to get everywhere then Crowley most certainly would have

    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post
    I mean, this was a huge thing, a life-altering decision and Benny just made it in a matter of minutes. WTF?
    I think the thing they were trying to make clear though is that while this was an amazing sacrifice on Benny's part (and I'm not trying to take away from that) the decision was also easier for Benny than it would have normally been due to the fact that he had seemingly given up on being able to 'fit in' on earth. I think that scene was pretty clear in showing alongside his decision to stay in spite of Sam's willingness to carry him across that Benny was yearning for the 'purity' of Purgatory as Benny and Dean put it back in We Need to Talk About Kevin.

    Sam of course changed his mind about Benny when it was too late, how very convenient. They couldn't have shown Sam seeing that Benny was really a good friend to Dean and admitting that he was wrong about Benny without getting rid of the character altogether?
    Well think of it this way when they bring Benny back you won't have to deal with any more drama between Sam and Benny, or worry about Sam trying to make Dean choose between them like he did back in Torn and Frayed

    Even I as a non-Cas fan did not get why the boys did not first at least try to contact Cas about getting into hell.
    I think it's pretty much a case of what Lyn said the boys have been trying to contact Cas with no luck and figured what would make this different? We know after all of at least two instances when they've tried to contact Castiel this season and got no reply back there was the implicit indication of it back in Everybody Hates Hitler and then there was the prayer scene in Remember the Titans. Then in the Naomi and Dean scene we are told Dean purposely kept the angel barriers down so Cas would be able to return to them So based on Dean's previous praying patterns I don't think it stretches crediability to assume he has probably been praying to Cas since he disappeared to protect the angel tablet in Goodbye Stranger

    Furthermore, I would like to add another canon issue I have with this episode. Since when is Bobby Singer advocating bringing someone back from the dead? What's dead should stay dead and Bobby gave Dean so much crap when he brought Sam back in the s2 finale. Now he's suddenly all like "oh I'd like to hang out on earth for a while"?
    One of the few things I liked in this episode was Bobby telling Sam that his insisting on him and Dean having an agreement about not looking for each other when dead/in hell/in purgatory etc. was full of crap, that it was a non-agreement. Bobby implied that Sam should have at least tried to look for Dean and since I have never understood and/or liked it that Sam never looked for his brother that was so good to hear!
    See this I don't get in one sentence you are complaining about Bobby advocating being brought back from the dead because of his belief in what is dead should stay dead and then the crap he gave Dean for his actions back in All Hell Breaks Loose and then you seem to be cheering him on for berating Sam for having the good sense to actually do just that leave what he believed to be dead as he should.

    Honestly I'm in the minority in this but if Sam truly believed which seems to be the case that Dean was dead rather than in purgatory then I'm proud of him for having the strength to go on. The brothers meddling with life and death when it ought not to be meddled with has caused the deaths of innocent (Faith), has had a potential affect on Sam's humanity (All Hell Breaks Loose)) he's certainly noticeably colder since that resurrection and it led to the apocalypse. How much death and destruction, how much collateral damage should the brothers see occurring around them before they actually grow a clue and realise they need to stop this destructive pattern both to themselves and them around them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ehlwyen View Post
    I never understood Lucifer's prison as being in hell. If it was, most demons wouldnt have considered him a myth. Even if Lucifer's prison was in some part of hell, it was completely isolated from the rest of hell. Not to mention Sam's memories seemed more of just an existence of pain and flames and not a semi physical place like Dean experienced.

    Anyway, the Hell pictured in this episode was so standard, I am going to imagine different areas of hell having different landscapes.

    That's the way I took it also After all throughout the shows run we have seen multiple depictions of the appearance of hell whether it's the strange area we saw Dean being tortured in at the end of No Rest For the Wicked, the never ending line area Crowley showed Castiel back in The Man Who Would Be King or this weeks area. Taking that into consideration it's perfectly reasonable that Sam would believe Purgatory to be just another area of hell

    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    The other characters were part of the Winchesters life for a while, we saw them grow into friends and family for the boys and eventually they became casualties of the war the angels and demons waged on Sam and Dean. It made sense and their deaths often served a purpose. Benny, however, was never treated like a real character by the writers; he was specifically designed to have something they could use to hurt Dean. They didn't even make an effort to show us how Benny and Dean became friends, they just claimed their friendship into existence, and the only reason it worked at all for me is because Ty Olsson and Jensen sold me on the characters' feelings for each other. Ultimately, the writers simply used Benny as a tool, first to drive a (completely contrived) wedge between Sam and Dean and then to heap further pain onto Dean when he has to sacrifice his friend for his brother. I don't think the writers have ever treated a character as callously as Benny. Well, maybe Adam, but that's it.
    Indeed that was my issue with the Benny character and why I found the character quite hard to like until this episode where even I had to admire his sacrifice At the start of the season he was just thrown into our faces out of nowhere with no development not even flashbacks as Dean's new best friend a so called 'better brother' then he acted as a source of conflict between the brothers only to be ditched when the writers thought it was time to show how wonderful the brothers bond was by having Dean ditch this brilliant best friend for Sam's sake

    Still as someone who is adamant in his belief Benny is coming back I am going to assume that they wanted to show viewers like myself who never bought the depth of Deans' trust in Benny an example of why Benny ought to be trusted and wanted to believably put the differences between Sam and Benny to bed so they could work more amicably in his future appearances
    Last edited by Bittersweettwit; 05-04-13 at 09:35 AM.
    Livejournal

    Avatar made by Shameless666 of Livejournal

  10. #10
    Bad Boy Lover Cori's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Westeros
    Posts
    1,478
    Thanks
    636
    Thanked 595 Times in 484 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    I originally PMed you Cori since I didn't want to spam the VIP and it would have looked weird me randomly replying to a post not everyone could see, but anyways

    Having now actually watched the episode myself I remain more convinced than ever that they are going to be bringing Benny back if not this season definitely next season...
    I mean just look at how the episode emphasizes that Naomi who wants an allegiance with Dean is capable of rescuing people from Purgatory and then a further demonstration of her power was the little soul trick at the end by saving Bobby's soul from Crowley so I wouldn't give up hope
    Thanks Tye, I got your PM but was too tired last night to reply. I sincerely hope you are right about Benny coming back. I’m not sure if I want Dean to bring Benny back though if it means Dean having to do questionable things for Naomi (whom I don’t trust one bit). I hope Dean will find another way to bring Benny back that does not involve Naomi.

    Also I'm sure you'll not particularly care but this episode helped to resolve most of the issues I had with the Dean and Benny friendship. I mean I'm still not invested in it, but it doesn't bug me like before
    I never got your issues with the Dean and Benny friendship (just like you don’t get mine with the Dean and Cas friendship) but I’m glad that this episode helped resolve them for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ehlwyen View Post
    Yeah me too! This scene between Dean and Benny made me tear up and reach for tissues each time I watched. Dean was visibly moved and regretful realizing how not being there had affected Benny. I found this a pivotal moment for Dean. He found out how important he was to someone else rather than him needing others. Benny not choosing to come back could easily destroy Dean in making him continue to believe that sacrificing for others and fighting until death is all he has to look forward to in his life. But I understand Benny's easy choice to leave Earth and go back to purgatory. He really seemed to be actively struggling when Dean called him. Dean is the only person on Earth he still has affection and ties to. And Dean gave him an opportunity to do something useful and good again and not be in a position where he isnt always tempted to drink humans. Honestly, I think Benny wants Dean to be the one to come and rescue him at some point so that way he would know that things would for sure be different when he came back to Earth.
    Beautifully put! And yes of course I also understood Benny’s motivations. It must have been so hard for him not being able to fit in with the vampires but not being able to fit in with humans either. He has lost all of his emotional connections on Earth (his girlfriend, his granddaughter, Dean) and was completely alone. That would drive anyone to despair. Which is why I hate Dean’s decision to abandon Benny even more.

    Benny survived in Purgatory before finding Dean, so I think Benny has confidence in his survival skills. He made it sound like escaping society would be a good vacation for him to make him realize at some point how much he appreciated Earth again.
    Yes Benny certainly is a skilled fighter but he also had Dean and Cas as back-up. I hope and pray that he will survive there and that Dean will find a way to get him out but you never know with these writers. I really have zero trust in them anymore.

    Did Sam really change his mind? At best I think Benny's selflessness of not hitching a ride back is what made Sam have some respect for him. Sam seemed begrudging when it was Benny's turn to do the ritual and seemed a little relieved when he tossed the axe at Benny.
    Well I was trying to give Sam the benefit of the doubt here but maybe I should rewatch that scene. Grudging respect may be the best term to express what Sam was feeling towards Benny in this episode.

    I did really enjoy the scene where Benny appears in Purgatory and Sam is smart enough to recognize it isnt a coincidence he appeared and holds Bobby off. It definitely adds a beautiful tragedy to Benny that he can do something as selfless as letting himself be killed to save others and then he ungraciously treated by those people.
    Beautiful tragedy indeed! These writers really treated Benny like crap.

    This I dont get. Havent they already been trying to contact Cas without any luck? Besides I feel like an angel in hell would set off some security alert which would not allow the leisure Sam had to search for Bobby.
    Well maybe if the episode hadn’t been so rushed and crammed, they could have shown a scene with the boys trying to contact Cas and explaining the situation. Maybe he would have helped them out, maybe not. It just immediately popped into my mind when the boys learned that the second trial was rescuing an innocent soul from hell that they should get help from someone who actually accomplished that task and that was Cas.

    I did enjoy Bobby chewing Sam out, although I was kinda laughing at the previous exchange:

    Bobby: "Dean spent a year in this place?"
    Sam: "Fighting and fighting, all day, everyday"
    Bobby:"Must have been hell on you..."

    I get where Bobby is coming from but still, poor Dean.
    I know, poor Dean indeed! The rabid Dean fangirls will certainly take this as another example of Dean being mistreated by the show so I really wish that Bobby had expressed regret and sympathy for both boys’ situation.

    I really loved that Sam was the one who had to visit both of these places where Dean spent extended sentences. I hope he gained a better understanding of the trauma Dean endured and emotionally withstood.
    I hope so too but I don’t trust these writers to actually address this.

    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    I feel that, in a way, Benny's death is worse than others. Not because I was more invested in him than in the other recurring characters that died over the years, but because I find the writers' treatment of Benny appalling. The other characters were part of the Winchesters life for a while, we saw them grow into friends and family for the boys and eventually they became casualties of the war the angels and demons waged on Sam and Dean. It made sense and their deaths often served a purpose. Benny, however, was never treated like a real character by the writers; he was specifically designed to have something they could use to hurt Dean. They didn't even make an effort to show us how Benny and Dean became friends, they just claimed their friendship into existence, and the only reason it worked at all for me is because Ty Olsson and Jensen sold me on the characters' feelings for each other. Ultimately, the writers simply used Benny as a tool, first to drive a (completely contrived) wedge between Sam and Dean and then to heap further pain onto Dean when he has to sacrifice his friend for his brother. I don't think the writers have ever treated a character as callously as Benny. Well, maybe Adam, but that's it.
    Indeed! As mentioned above, I hate how horribly the writers treated Benny. They made him lose everyone he cared about. Dean killed the love of his life (even if Benny consented to it, it must still have hurt like hell), Sam and Martin were responsible for Benny no longer being able to have his granddaughter in his life and then, to top it all off, Dean abandoned him. No wonder Benny jumped at the chance to escape.

    Yeah, remember that Bobby's last words to Sam and Dean in Survival of the Fittest were: "When it's your time - go." So even as an angry spirit he seemed to have had more common sense.
    Exactly! Which makes Bobby’s behaviour in this week’s episode even stranger and OOC.

    The cage is located in hell, yes. We know that because Death tells Dean in Appointment in Samarra that he is going to hell to fetch Sam's soul.
    That’s how I remembered it, thanks.

    However, the cage is a hermetically sealed mystical prison within the depth of hell that even most demons do not know about. Remember, Casey told Dean in Sin City that most demons believe Lucifer to be a myth. And Azazel had to go through a particularly gruesome blood ritual to even be able to establish rudimentary communications with Lucifer in the cage. So, no, Sam would not be able to recognise hell.
    Okay that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. Good to know that the writers did at least not screw up canon in this respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    I think the thing they were trying to make clear though is that while this was an amazing sacrifice on Benny's part (and I'm not trying to take away from that) the decision was also easier for Benny than it would have normally been due to the fact that he had seemingly given up on being able to 'fit in' on earth. I think that scene was pretty clear in showing alongside his decision to stay in spite of Sam's willingness to carry him across that Benny was yearning for the 'purity' of Purgatory as Benny and Dean put it back in We Need to Talk About Kevin.
    Agreed. As I explained above, I completely understand Benny’s motivations. What I am criticizing though is that like everything else in this episode Benny’s decision was extremely rushed. I would have liked to see him consider it at least a few minutes longer but hey maybe that’s just me.

    Well think of it this way when they bring Benny back you won't have to deal with any more drama between Sam and Benny, or worry about Sam trying to make Dean choose between them like he did back in Torn and Frayed
    True that would be a bright spot indeed!

    See this I don't get in one sentence you are complaining about Bobby advocating being brought back from the dead because of his belief in what is dead should stay dead and then the crap he gave Dean for his actions back in All Hell Breaks Loose and then you seem to be cheering him on for berating Sam for having the good sense to actually do just that leave what he believed to be dead as he should.

    Honestly I'm in the minority in this but if Sam truly believed which seems to be the case that Dean was dead rather than in purgatory then I'm proud of him for having the strength to go on. The brothers meddling with life and death when it ought not to be meddled with has caused the deaths of innocent (Faith), has had a potential affect on Sam's humanity (All Hell Breaks Loose)) he's certainly noticeably colder since that resurrection and it led to the apocalypse. How much death and destruction, how much collateral damage should the brothers see occurring around them before they actually grow a clue and realise they need to stop this destructive pattern both to themselves and them around them?
    Well I never bought that Sam believed 100% that Dean was dead. And as I have explained many times before, there is a difference between going down a destructive path to resurrect the people you love and not even trying. Sam could have tried to learn something about Dean’s disappearance through his connections to other hunters, with the help of Bobby’s books, etc. but he did nothing of the sort. That’s also what Bobby was criticizing: that Sam did not even try to look for Dean! If Sam had tried and had then learned that Dean was in purgatory and that it took some dangerous and self-destructive act on Sam’s part to get Dean out and Sam would have decided against that, then I would be okay with that. But I’m certainly not okay with Sam just giving up and living a normal life with Amelia, not caring about what happens to Kevin and leaving Dean to rot. And I’m sorry no matter what explanations the writers come up, I will never ever be okay with Sam not even trying to look for Dean (and neither is Jared apparently).

  11. #11
    I don't get wet Bittersweettwit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    With Mulder and Scully!
    Posts
    745
    Thanks
    1,014
    Thanked 404 Times in 349 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post
    Thanks Tye, I got your PM but was too tired last night to reply. I sincerely hope you are right about Benny coming back. I’m not sure if I want Dean to bring Benny back though if it means Dean having to do questionable things for Naomi (whom I don’t trust one bit). I hope Dean will find another way to bring Benny back that does not involve Naomi.
    Well I do not want a Naomi allegiance either of course! For one like yourself I do not trust her in the slightest and secondly a reason we'll not have in common is that if Dean works with Naomi Castiel is bound to see it as a betrayal on Dean's part after what she did to him and that type of angst between them I do not want to put up with

    Yes Benny certainly is a skilled fighter but he also had Dean and Cas as back-up. I hope and pray that he will survive there and that Dean will find a way to get him out but you never know with these writers. I really have zero trust in them anymore.
    Well as Lyn points out he only had Dean and Cas as back up for what a year? Benny survived if I remember correctly from Blood Brothers fifty years before they come along? I'm sure he'll be fine until the writers bring him back later down the line

    Agreed. As I explained above, I completely understand Benny’s motivations. What I am criticizing though is that like everything else in this episode Benny’s decision was extremely rushed. I would have liked to see him consider it at least a few minutes longer but hey maybe that’s just me.
    Ah fair enough like I said considering his depressed state of mind I had no real issues with how quickly he came to the decision especially as Purgatory was somewhere he knew and seemed to think he fitted better. But I of course can get why you wish they'd allowed more screen time before he made the decision

    Well I never bought that Sam believed 100% that Dean was dead. And as I have explained many times before, there is a difference between going down a destructive path to resurrect the people you love and not even trying. Sam could have tried to learn something about Dean’s disappearance through his connections to other hunters, with the help of Bobby’s books, etc. but he did nothing of the sort. That’s also what Bobby was criticizing: that Sam did not even try to look for Dean! If Sam had tried and had then learned that Dean was in purgatory and that it took some dangerous and self-destructive act on Sam’s part to get Dean out and Sam would have decided against that, then I would be okay with that. But I’m certainly not okay with Sam just giving up and living a normal life with Amelia, not caring about what happens to Kevin and leaving Dean to rot. And I’m sorry no matter what explanations the writers come up, I will never ever be okay with Sam not even trying to look for Dean (and neither is Jared apparently).
    I guess that's the crux of the manner if you don't believe that Sam believed Dean to be dead which I do then any explanation I am going to offer is never going to satisfy you All I'll say is for me if Sam believed Dean was dead not just stuck in purgatory but actually dead which seems to be the case then it makes sense to me that he would stick to the deal. You say he could have looked at non-destructive methods first but come on let's be honest just look at the examples I give above of their past dealings in meddling with life and death Sam would know better than anyone from past experience there is no way of bringing someone back from the dead without some sort of destructive consequence for either Sam himself or those around him.
    Livejournal

    Avatar made by Shameless666 of Livejournal

  12. #12
    Roadie galathea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Offworld
    Posts
    1,232
    Thanks
    333
    Thanked 885 Times in 760 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    I guess that's the crux of the manner if you don't believe that Sam believed Dean to be dead which I do then any explanation I am going to offer is never going to satisfy you All I'll say is for me if Sam believed Dean was dead not just stuck in purgatory but actually dead which seems to be the case then it makes sense to me that he would stick to the deal. You say he could have looked at non-destructive methods first but come on let's be honest just look at the examples I give above of their past dealings in meddling with life and death Sam would know better than anyone from past experience there is no way of bringing someone back from the dead without some sort of destructive consequence for either Sam himself or those around him.
    Yeah, for once I have to agree with Bittersweettwitt. I don't find it likely either that Sam would right away assume that Dean had died or that he wouldn't at least look for some kind of confirmation. However, canon tells us differently and I have chosen to accept that from now on, not least because the alternative, i.e. Sam thinking Dean was trapped in an alternate dimension and doing nothing, is even less likely. In We Need To Talk about Kevin, Sam's "You're frigging alive!" suggests that he truly believed Dean had died. Similarly, when he talks about Dean with Amelia and Stan it is clear that he thinks Dean is dead as well. And if Sam truly believed Dean is dead, I can only commend him for trying to move on with his life.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to galathea For This Useful Post:

    Bittersweettwit (05-04-13)

  14. #13
    Scooby Gang Rosely's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Amsterdam
    Posts
    720
    Thanks
    705
    Thanked 475 Times in 366 Posts

    Default

    Wow... these are some seriously long posts in here! I've tried to read it all, but am not finished yet.

    Anyway, just saw the episode and besides the insane fact that somehow they can easily get in and out of hell and purgatory.. (I mean: seriously! ) I quite loved it.

    I'm with Cori (and probably Lyn too) and really hope Benny will appear again. I loved his sacrifice, how he was willing to die for Dean. And am glad that Dean still has hope and didn't burn his bones

    Bobby! It was so good seeing him again, and I loved that he is now really in heaven.
    Maybe he's up there with John, seeing as he took the same route, he went down, his bones were burned and he's now up in heaven.
    Only poor Bobby has been in hell for 2 years! That's a whole lot longer then any of the Winchesters! How can he not have seemed damaged?

    So there were quite some inconsistencies in this episode, but I still loved it. And I hope we'll see Bobby and Benny again

  15. #14
    I don't get wet Bittersweettwit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    With Mulder and Scully!
    Posts
    745
    Thanks
    1,014
    Thanked 404 Times in 349 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosely View Post
    Only poor Bobby has been in hell for 2 years! That's a whole lot longer then any of the Winchesters! How can he not have seemed damaged?

    Exactly if we go by the fact Dean was in hell for forty years hell time which was four months earth time that means roughly for every month on earth there is ten years in hell. If Bobby was there for two years realistically he has been in hell for 240 years give or take, if anything he should be well on his way to being a demon by now! But instead the writers just opted to go for a cheap thrill rather than focus on consistency

    So there were quite some inconsistencies in this episode, but I still loved it. And I hope we'll see Bobby and Benny again
    I'm not overly invested in Benny so it wouldn't bother me if we never saw him again although I fully expect him to be back and have no issues with that either But Bobby on the other hand I really hope they let the character lay to rest. Death's Door was such a perfect send off for the character and to this day I resent both the 'ghost' Bobby story-line which cheapened the character and had him go against his main values and this weeks ridiculous episode! I adore Bobby but I hope this is the last we've seen of him...

    Furthermore and for this reason I hope they don't have any more Sam/Dean or Cas deaths I think to have the main characters constantly dying only to reappear a season later completely cheapens the emotional depth of the story. I know I'm personally starting to find deaths on this show hard to believe especially for the more popular characters as it's getting to a point where I just think "Meh they'll probably be back next season anyway."
    Livejournal

    Avatar made by Shameless666 of Livejournal

  16. #15
    Scooby Gang Rosely's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Amsterdam
    Posts
    720
    Thanks
    705
    Thanked 475 Times in 366 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    Exactly if we go by the fact Dean was in hell for forty years hell time which was four months earth time that means roughly for every month on earth there is ten years in hell. If Bobby was there for two years realistically he has been in hell for 240 years give or take, if anything he should be well on his way to being a demon by now! But instead the writers just opted to go for a cheap thrill rather than focus on consistency
    True I don't really wanna go down the disappointment of the writers road, but these inconsistencies suck

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    I'm not overly invested in Benny so it wouldn't bother me if we never saw him again although I fully expect him to be back and have no issues with that either But Bobby on the other hand I really hope they let the character lay to rest. Death's Door was such a perfect send off for the character and to this day I resent both the 'ghost' Bobby story-line which cheapened the character and had him go against his main values and this weeks ridiculous episode! I adore Bobby but I hope this is the last we've seen of him...
    Good point, and I hated what they did with the Bobby gohst too. But I fear this wasn't the last we've seen of him. They really made it clear that Bobby wasn't done hunting. Which is odd seeing as he has just been in hell for 240 years...
    They left it open after Deaths Door and brought him back pretty fast (with the bear from the table and such), so I suppose him being in heaven doesn't have to be the end. Even though Ellen, Jo and John have not been back from there... so there's hope
    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    Furthermore and for this reason I hope they don't have any more Sam/Dean or Cas deaths I think to have the main characters constantly dying only to reappear a season later completely cheapens the emotional depth of the story. I know I'm personally starting to find deaths on this show hard to believe especially for the more popular characters as it's getting to a point where I just think "Meh they'll probably be back next season anyway."
    Amen to that. Bringing them back all the time does get boring. There is no real danger for our beloved characters if they are brought back all the time.. They go in and out of all those dimensions, Heaven in season 5, Hell a few times and now Purgatory and Hell in just 24 hours... It makes it all fairly simple.. And so as long as they still have a body, their soul can just go back into it...

  17. #16
    I don't get wet Bittersweettwit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    With Mulder and Scully!
    Posts
    745
    Thanks
    1,014
    Thanked 404 Times in 349 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosely View Post
    Good point, and I hated what they did with the Bobby gohst too. But I fear this wasn't the last we've seen of him. They really made it clear that Bobby wasn't done hunting. Which is odd seeing as he has just been in hell for 240 years...

    They left it open after Deaths Door and brought him back pretty fast (with the bear from the table and such), so I suppose him being in heaven doesn't have to be the end. Even though Ellen, Jo and John have not been back from there... so there's hope
    Well I'm hoping that with him finally getting to go to heaven and it being apart of the trials that will be the last we see of him unless perhaps they were to bring him back full time and have a clear direction in mind for him. That I would find alright if done correctly, but having him pop up now and then as in this week case would just serve to cheapen the memory of a much loved character in my opinion

    And oh I know that Death's Door was never in the writers mind the end as the ghost Bobby story-line was planned long before then I'm sure. What I meant though was that for me they should have ended the characters journey at Death's Door as it was in my opinion complete perfection in showing the character of Bobby and his love for Sam and Dean. While the ghost story-line and this weeks appearance have done nothing but in their own ways belittle the character
    Livejournal

    Avatar made by Shameless666 of Livejournal

  18. #17
    Scooby Gang Rosely's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Amsterdam
    Posts
    720
    Thanks
    705
    Thanked 475 Times in 366 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    While the ghost story-line and this weeks appearance have done nothing but in their own ways belittle the character
    The ghost story didn't really belittle the character. I can understand why you would see it that way, but it was still Bobby, he really wanted to help and do good, but he had no feeling for boundaries anymore. When he realized he had crossed them and that he would turn into a vengeful spirit, he chose to have a hunters funeral. So it was still really Bobby and even though the story was kinda lame, I don't think it really damaged the character.

    This weeks story was mostly unrealistic (within the SN universe of course since all story-lines are unrealistic). After spending 2 years in hell, no way he was that sane... Apparently they played the Sam and Dean cards a lot, so it's also not logical that Bobby would believe it's really Sam within a minute. And how one earth did Sam manage to find Bobby that fast? Are there just 50 souls in hell?

    So if you don't think about it, it's all pretty cool, and the special effects were nice. Purgatory is a whole lot of a better place then hell, and it does show on Dean, he's not as damaged from it as he was from hell, but still, this weeks episode has some major plot holes

  19. #18
    Roadie galathea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Offworld
    Posts
    1,232
    Thanks
    333
    Thanked 885 Times in 760 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosely View Post
    The ghost story didn't really belittle the character. I can understand why you would see it that way, but it was still Bobby, he really wanted to help and do good, but he had no feeling for boundaries anymore. When he realized he had crossed them and that he would turn into a vengeful spirit, he chose to have a hunters funeral. So it was still really Bobby and even though the story was kinda lame, I don't think it really damaged the character.
    I never felt that Bobby's ghost storyline damaged the character either. I thought it was a valid option to explore and they did it reasonably well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosely View Post
    Apparently they played the Sam and Dean cards a lot, so it's also not logical that Bobby would believe it's really Sam within a minute.
    That was ridiculous, especially since it is well established that demons can read minds, so Sam's knowledge of Bobby's secrets proves absolutely nothing. There is a reason why they always go through the whole silver/holy water/borax ritual when one of them comes back from the dead - mere words are just not enough to establish the true identity of someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosely View Post
    And how one earth did Sam manage to find Bobby that fast? Are there just 50 souls in hell?
    Because the time restraints of the plot required him to. There is no logical in-canon reason for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosely View Post
    Purgatory is a whole lot of a better place then hell, and it does show on Dean, he's not as damaged from it as he was from hell.
    Personally, I feel that Taxi Driver completely undermines the horror of Dean's time in purgatory by showing that Sam and Bobby could just stroll around and have casual conversations while they were walking to the meeting point. Sam (and Bobby) spend hours in purgatory, but they barely encounter any monsters and they are never really in danger. Remember, when Dean arrived in purgatory, he was immediately surrounded by monsters, and the flashbacks tell us that Dean, Benny and Castiel were on the run and fighting non-stop during their stay. The discrepancies between Sam's purgatory and Dean's purgatory are just glaring and really damage the entire purgatory arc.

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to galathea For This Useful Post:

    Rosely (10-04-13)

  21. #19
    I don't get wet Bittersweettwit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    With Mulder and Scully!
    Posts
    745
    Thanks
    1,014
    Thanked 404 Times in 349 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosely View Post
    The ghost story didn't really belittle the character. I can understand why you would see it that way, but it was still Bobby, he really wanted to help and do good, but he had no feeling for boundaries anymore. When he realized he had crossed them and that he would turn into a vengeful spirit, he chose to have a hunters funeral. So it was still really Bobby and even though the story was kinda lame, I don't think it really damaged the character.
    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    I never felt that Bobby's ghost storyline damaged the character either. I thought it was a valid option to explore and they did it reasonably well.
    I personally had issues with the ghost Bobby story-line and indeed his behaviour in this weeks episode due to the fact that firstly as a hunter Bobby ought to know better than anyone how remaining behind as a spirit turns out! He has encountered enough spirits over the years after all and was even warned by the reaper in Death's Door. Then I disliked this weeks episode because even though in Survival of the Fittest he was shown to have learnt his lesson urging the boys to just move on when their time came this week he's all about returning to earth to hunt! That just undermines the one thing the character could have learnt from the ghost story-line!

    Of course were all free to disagree but for me Bobby's story was best ending at Death's Door

    Personally, I feel that Taxi Driver completely undermines the horror of Dean's time in purgatory by showing that Sam and Bobby could just stroll around and have casual conversations while they were walking to the meeting point. Sam (and Bobby) spend hours in purgatory, but they barely encounter any monsters and they are never really in danger. Remember, when Dean arrived in purgatory, he was immediately surrounded by monsters, and the flashbacks tell us that Dean, Benny and Castiel were on the run and fighting non-stop during their stay. The discrepancies between Sam's purgatory and Dean's purgatory are just glaring and really damage the entire purgatory arc.
    I think the one thing though that could be used to argue the discrepancies between Sam's experience of purgatory and Dean and Benny's is the presence of Castiel. What I mean is we know from the words of Castiel in What's Up Tiger Mummy his presence as an angel in a land of abominations was like a bright beacon for the supernatural creatures of purgatory which was why he left Dean when they arrived to try and spare him the worst of it

    I have also seen users speculate that maybe the reason that Sam as a human didn't attract them was due to the molecular changes that Castiel mentioned the trials have caused within Sam during Goodbye Stranger.
    Livejournal

    Avatar made by Shameless666 of Livejournal

  22. #20
    Roadie galathea's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Offworld
    Posts
    1,232
    Thanks
    333
    Thanked 885 Times in 760 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    Then I disliked this weeks episode because even though in Survival of the Fittest he was shown to have learnt his lesson urging the boys to just move on when their time came this week he's all about returning to earth to hunt! That just undermines the one thing the character could have learnt from the ghost story-line!
    On this I whole-heartedly agree. Bobby's wish to be resurrected feels totally out of character to me and completely undermined the resolution to his ghost-arc in S7.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bittersweettwit View Post
    I think the one thing though that could be used to argue the discrepancies between Sam's experience of purgatory and Dean and Benny's is the presence of Castiel. What I mean is we know from the words of Castiel in What's Up Tiger Mummy his presence as an angel in a land of abominations was like a bright beacon for the supernatural creatures of purgatory which was why he left Dean when they arrived to try and spare him the worst of it

    I have also seen users speculate that maybe the reason that Sam as a human didn't attract them was due to the molecular changes that Castiel mentioned the trials have caused within Sam during Goodbye Stranger.
    Well, the problem is, when they reunite, Dean tells Castiel that he and Benny were hunted by monsters non-stop, just like Castiel. And only then Castiel further explains that leviathans, specifically, are after him because he has a price on his head. So, even if we buy that Castiel's presence complicated things by attracting leviathans - which I don't, by the way, because Dean should be hunted by leviathans just as much as Castiel; after all, he killed their leader and stopped the leviathan plague on earth - normal monsters still posed a considerable problem for Dean and Benny.

    We can speculate a lot, but the episode really needed to give us an in-canon reason.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •