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Thread: 3.01 Valar Dohaeris Discussion Thread

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    Default 3.01 Valar Dohaeris Discussion Thread

    So has anyone seen the season 3 premiere yet? I just did and I thought I would get this thread started again. I liked the episode a lot, apart from the fact that there was no Brienne and Jaime, hopefully they will reappear next week. My favourite part was Dany's storyline, so happy that her storyline this season will be so much better than season 2's. I liked that they shortened and fast forwarded her storyline a bit because hey they only have 10 episodes. I loved the reveal and re-entry of Ser Barristan Selmy, that was nicely done! And that magic scorpio was creepy. And wow, the special effects when Drogon caught that fish and roasted and swallowed it were absolutely awesome!

    The Tywin and Tyrion scene was fantastic and some of the dialogue seemed to be word for word from the book. Poor Tyrion, he really is in a sucky situation right now. Book spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    At least he got to keep his nose! I like that the writers had Cersei hint at that and I'm glad for Peter Dinklage that he doesn't have to be in the makeup trailer for hours every day now due to this change.


    Loved Margaery and how she does charitable work and is like the complete opposite from Joffrey! And I especially love how she gets under Cersei's skin, I am looking forward to seeing the relationship between those two develop.

    I cannot wait to see more of Sansa and Littlefinger's plans. Book spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    I think the creators made a wise choice here by scrapping Ser Dontos and going straight to Littlefinger.
    Also liked Ros' little remark to Shae that she should watch out for Sansa because of Littlefinger.

    I was a bit disappointed that the King Beyond the Wall (book spoiler)
    Spoiler:
    did not play any music
    when Jon met him for the first time but other than that I enjoyed their scene together. Ygritte continues to be awesome!

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    I have seen it already too. I am not a book reader so I cannot follow that but I liked the episode agree with a lot of what you said.

    I can finally separate who is who on this show! Took me two seasons but hey getting there. I loved the Tyrion/Tywin scene the most in the episode but I am always more interested in Tyrion’s story line. It is sad the way his father thinks of him although it was hinted at in other seasons I can’t remember actually seeing the two of them together that much and it was really sad to see that Tywin thinks so little of him.

    Dany! Loved how they moved that storyline along and I agree the re- appearance of Barristan was very well done and the little girl was ultra creepy I did not see that coming. I actually thought her dragons have grown quite a lot so I don’t know whether I agree on the not growing fast enough thing I was more like can’t wait for next season if this is the way they are growing we will have grown dragons next season which to me seems a bit fast

    Loved Margery although I couldn’t help but get the impression that she is doing the charity work more to get noticed and loved by ‘her’ people then out of the goodness of her heart but either way she is the complete opposite of Joffrey and the fact that she manages to get under Cersei’s skin is awesome.

    I missed Arya more this episode then Brienne and Jamie but I hope all three will reappear next episode. The scene with the White walkers did remind me a lot of the walking dead if I am honest but I am glad SPOILER FOR THE EPISODE(I know the whole thing is a spoiler for the episode but this needs tags IMO)
    Spoiler:
    Sam seems to be alive for the moment


    I am glad that Litttlefinger will get more to do this season although I don’t know whether I like the idea of him being the one to help Sansa

    Loved to see Mellisandre again who is not only awesome but also played buy a Dutch actress making me feel all fuzzy and proud
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    I recently got hooked on this show because my cable provider had a free "Watchathon Week" that included the premium channels (I don't subscribe to HBO anymore), so watched both seasons. And being great sports, they even gave free access to the season premiere! (I am now having to consider buying HBO). So I've watched both seasons and this episode all since... Tuesday? Haven't read the books, yet.

    I interpreted Dany to mean her dragons weren't growing fast enough in the context of "... to be the ultimate siege weapons to conquer Westeros with", not in the sense of a concerned mother thinking her babies were not developing properly. I never would have thought so when the show started, probably because her brother was such a prick and she such a waif, but I'm sort of Team Dragon at this point when it comes to the Iron Throne

    I sort of half-agree about Margaery -- she probably isn't *completely* faking her "walk with the poor and orphaned" image, I don't think she's "shut the gates on the peasants" like Cersei... but she's a better political creature than really the whole of House Lannister put together when it comes to winning hearts and minds. In Season 1, Dany's brother whines about how the Dothraki loved her and nobody ever gave him what they gave her (i.e. loyal affection as a leader)... I think Cersei realizes that Margaery can give that to Joffrey by proxy and may actually turn Joffrey into -- I don't want to say a "good" man, because lawl, but certainly a higher-functioning sociopath than he is.

    Everything about Littlefinger gives me the creeps anymore, especially his interest in Sansa. I get this nagging feeling that his idea of help will be to claim her as his own, to marry her out of this debacle she's in, sort of "... eh, she's Catelyn enough for me!"

    I was really gratified that when Jon Snow came up with an answer that the King Beyond the Wall believed, it was still basically "let's save the world!", because that's what I like Jon Snow for, that's what he brings.

    I'm a bit bummed for Tyrion that he's told in no uncertain terms to go eff himself when it comes to succeeding his father someday (I even took it as an implicit "he better disclaim his own interest in Casterly Rock at some point here soon or Tywan would have him killed"), because... Dinklage! Because Dinklage. What an actor that can actually make me cheer for the nominal villains of the series at the end of last season strictly through the force and charisma of his performance and the arc of his character. I also liked the book shout-out in the scene with Cersei --
    Spoiler:
    I know about the nose thing from an interview with Dinklage, though. He said that his understanding was that having to wear a green nose sock and the cost and time of digitally removing his nose from every frame was what had decided it. His scar isn't really all that bad in the grand scheme of things, though. It is indeed "not as bad as all that"

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    I interpreted Dany to mean her dragons weren't growing fast enough in the context of "... to be the ultimate siege weapons to conquer Westeros with", not in the sense of a concerned mother thinking her babies were not developing properly.
    Agreed. Dany meant that if her dragons were fully grown she wouldn't need the Unsullied or any other kind of army because she could just conquer Westeros with her dragons like the Targaryens of old.

    I never would have thought so when the show started, probably because her brother was such a prick and she such a waif, but I'm sort of Team Dragon at this point when it comes to the Iron Throne
    Well I have been Team Dany ever since the season 1 finale. But then again the alternatives (Joffrey, Stannis, the King Beyond the Wall, etc.) are not very appealing.

    I sort of half-agree about Margaery -- she probably isn't *completely* faking her "walk with the poor and orphaned" image, I don't think she's "shut the gates on the peasants" like Cersei... but she's a better political creature than really the whole of House Lannister put together when it comes to winning hearts and minds. In Season 1, Dany's brother whines about how the Dothraki loved her and nobody ever gave him what they gave her (i.e. loyal affection as a leader)... I think Cersei realizes that Margaery can give that to Joffrey by proxy and may actually turn Joffrey into -- I don't want to say a "good" man, because lawl, but certainly a higher-functioning sociopath than he is.
    Yes Margaery is probably not completely selfless, she does want to be queen after all and remain queen. I think a part of her thinks that her charitable work and thus winning the hearts of the smallfolk is a form of protection against the Lannisters. I mean Margaery is not stupid, she has been how Sansa has been shoved aside (no matter how pleased Sansa was with this decision) when a better prospect for Joffrey came along so Margaery probably wants to ensure in any way she can that the Lannisters won't do the same to her and making sure that she is popular with the people of King's Landing is one such way. Therefore, I think Cersei is definitely not pleased by this move of Margaery, she won't be able to push around Margaery the way she did Sansa and Cersei is a control freak and hates losing control. So seeing the two queens deal with that will probably be a lot of fun to watch!

    Everything about Littlefinger gives me the creeps anymore, especially his interest in Sansa. I get this nagging feeling that his idea of help will be to claim her as his own, to marry her out of this debacle she's in, sort of "... eh, she's Catelyn enough for me!"
    Yes Littlefinger's obsession with Catelyn and by extension Sansa is definitely creepy! I'm not gonna say anything more because I don't want to spoil you guys.

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    Man, great season opener! I really love how they managed to touch on all the storylines - except Arya, damn, I missed her - but the pacing never felt rushed and we got a good overview where everyone is at the moment. I am particularly happy to find Dany's storyline a lot more enjoyable than I thought I would. She was one of my favourites in S1, but her characterisation in S2 was grating and gradually turned her into a female version of her brother, so I am relieved to see her return to her more sensible and compassionate nature. And man, that scene with the scorpion was really fantastic and the reveal of Ser Selmy as the one following her was beautifully done! I truly thought he was dead, so that was a nice surprise.

    Of course, I am particularly excited to see Jon's storyline this season. Like with Dany, I thought his story in S2 suffered from the time restraints, so I hope it is better balanced this season. By the way, the CGI on the giant Jon encounters in Mance's encampment was very impressive, just like all the rest of the CGIs in the show. I am happy to see more of the supernatural elements beyond the wall explored this season. By the way, I was a tad confused that Ghost joined Mormont and his men instead of following Jon. Is that from the books? And talking of the books
    Spoiler:
    I didn't read past the first book, but I heard somewhere that Sam kills a White Walker with the dragonglass he and his comrades found in the S2 finale. Does that come later or did they deviate from the books here? I would be sad if the latter is the case, I would really have liked to see Sam gain more respect amongst the men.

    Last but not least, Tyrion's conversation with his father was truly heart-breaking. It retroactively illustrates the truth of Tyrion's stories about his father's cruelty towards him in S1. I really hope that one day Tywin gets his comeuppance and that Tyrion plays a hand in it and becomes the ruler over Casterly Rock anyway.
    Last edited by galathea; 01-04-13 at 09:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    By the way, I was a tad confused that Ghost joined Mormont and his men instead of following Jon. Is that from the books?
    You and me both. That's definitely not from the books. In the books Ghost follows Jon and the wildlings.

    And talking of the books
    Spoiler:
    I didn't read past the first book, but I heard somewhere that Sam kills a White Walker with the dragonglass he and his comrades found in the S2 finale. Does that come later or did they deviate from the books here? I would be sad if the latter is the case, I would really have liked to see Sam gain more respect amongst the men.
    Book 3 spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    They did deviate majorly from the books in the s3 premiere when it comes to Sam. In the books Grenn and his other Nightwatch brothers are not dead and when the White Walker attacks them Sam does indeed kill him with obsidian (dragonglass) and afterwards his brothers call him "Slayer" and have newfound respect for Sam. So I don't know if the GoT creators will stage another White Walker attack later where Sam kills one or if they decided to skip this part of Sam's storyline altogether.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post
    You and me both. That's definitely not from the books. In the books Ghost follows Jon and the wildlings.
    Good to know. It doesn't really make sense that Ghost would follow Mormont, but whatever. I was already surprised that Ghost left Jon soon after they arrived at the Fist of the First Men in S2. I assumed that he felt the call of the wild and just disappeared, so his return here confused me even more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post
    Book 3 spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    They did deviate majorly from the books in the s3 premiere when it comes to Sam. In the books Grenn and his other Nightwatch brothers are not dead and when the White Walker attacks them Sam does indeed kill him with obsidian (dragonglass) and afterwards his brothers call him "Slayer" and have newfound respect for Sam. So I don't know if the GoT creators will stage another White Walker attack later where Sam kills one or if they decided to skip this part of Sam's storyline altogether.
    Bummer! I have a major soft spot for Sam
    Spoiler:
    and I am sad that they apparently skipped that. Although I assume that it would have been a very costly scene to film.

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    It's good to have the show back! I actually watched the premiere twice already since they just kept repeating it after it aired and I just found myself remaining in front of the TV! I liked most of it, though it dragged in some parts (and *sigh* at the need for the obligatory gratuitous brothel scene).

    It was certainly interesting to watch for the first time with book!knowledge fresh in my mind--I managed to finish the fifth one just in time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post
    My favourite part was Dany's storyline, so happy that her storyline this season will be so much better than season 2's. I liked that they shortened and fast forwarded her storyline a bit because hey they only have 10 episodes.
    No, they have more like 13-15 episodes, since they are breaking up ASOS into multiple seasons--so I was actually rather concerned to see them racing so fast through Dany's storyline (they seriously skipped to like half-way through the book at the very least, maybe further), because I would hate for them to burn through it too quickly and resort to making up stuff like last season, when unlike in book 2 she does have a decently meaty story. Maybe they will shift some of the pre-Astapor stuff to now though, since the timing of meeting Barristan is also different, IDK. I wished they could have kept his identity a mystery until the end like in the book, though I guess that wouldn't have worked on TV when we've seen the actor before. I hope this early reveal won't mean that (ASOS spoiler)
    Spoiler:
    Barristan's reveal about You Know Who and that breaking of ties won't come earlier as well!


    In any case, Dany was badass (and love the blue dress and necklace!) and the Unsullied scene was great...the nipple part was even not quite as nausea-inducing as the book, for whatever reason! This was my favorite storyline--and yes, I am definitely Team Dany as well, in terms of who I want ultimately on the Iron Throne!

    The Tywin and Tyrion scene was fantastic and some of the dialogue seemed to be word for word from the book.
    Lol having just recently read that book, I'd say it was almost entirely lifted verbatim from the book, it was so close...great scene indeed! It was one of my favorites there, and the actors did such a fantastic job with it here.

    I cannot wait to see more of Sansa and Littlefinger's plans. Book spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    I think the creators made a wise choice here by scrapping Ser Dontos and going straight to Littlefinger.
    Also liked Ros' little remark to Shae that she should watch out for Sansa because of Littlefinger.
    IDK, I disagree...Books
    Spoiler:
    Littlefinger just seems a lot less clever on the show, the way he just drops his plans about where anyone can hear, and it kind of ruins that awesome reveal in the end...and I wonder now is Ros supposedly going to try to undermine these plans? And does this mean that Sansa will be complicit in the murder or You Know Who if she's in on it from the beginning?


    Quote Originally Posted by Mara View Post
    Loved Margery although I couldn’t help but get the impression that she is doing the charity work more to get noticed and loved by ‘her’ people then out of the goodness of her heart
    Oh no you are completely right--I mean, she's not a bad person, and she is a lot kinder than Cersei and co generally, but she is seems very politically savvy, and I would say what she did with the orphans was the equivalent of a politician "kissing babies".

    I mean, they're going about feeding the people now...but one of the reasons there was so much hunger in King's Landing at the outbreak of the war is that back while the Tyrells were still in Renly's camp, they had closed the roads so no grain and food could get from their breadbasket region to King's Landing...a point I sure hope Tyrion makes on the show at some point!

    Loved to see Mellisandre again who is not only awesome but also played by a Dutch actress making me feel all fuzzy and proud
    Lol, I saw her in both the Dutch version of "Love Actually" and "The Happy Housewife" and she sure is great!

    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    She was one of my favourites in S1, but her characterisation in S2 was grating and gradually turned her into a female version of her brother
    Oh come now, she was annoying but not THAT bad!

    And talking of the books
    Spoiler:
    I didn't read past the first book, but I heard somewhere that Sam kills a White Walker with the dragonglass he and his comrades found in the S2 finale. Does that come later or did they deviate from the books here? I would be sad if the latter is the case, I would really have liked to see Sam gain more respect amongst the men.
    Don't despair, it actually does come later! (ASOS spoilers)
    Spoiler:
    Sam did NOT kill a White Walker during the Battle of the Fist, but later, while they are on the march back to the Wall (which it sounds like they are about to embark on at the end of this epp)--Sam can't keep up and begins to fall further and further behind, and eventually he is all alone aside from a few other friends, and a White Walker comes upon them, and THEN Sam stabs him with dragonglass. Although as I recall, they didn't find any dragonglass in s2, so unless he finds some on the road immediately before encountering the WW, they might not have the scene.

    Though alas, it does not really gain any respect for Sam from his brothers, when they call him "Slayer" it's a mocking term. They think it's funny/unlikely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherrilina View Post
    Don't despair, it actually does come later! (ASOS spoilers)
    Spoiler:
    Sam did NOT kill a White Walker during the Battle of the Fist, but later, while they are on the march back to the Wall (which it sounds like they are about to embark on at the end of this epp)--Sam can't keep up and begins to fall further and further behind, and eventually he is all alone aside from a few other friends, and a White Walker comes upon them, and THEN Sam stabs him with dragonglass. Although as I recall, they didn't find any dragonglass in s2, so unless he finds some on the road immediately before encountering the WW, they might not have the scene.

    Though alas, it does not really gain any respect for Sam from his brothers, when they call him "Slayer" it's a mocking term. They think it's funny/unlikely.
    Oh, cool. So I can have hope!
    Spoiler:
    Sam and his brothers actually do find dragonglass in the S2 episode The Prince of Winterfell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    Oh, cool. So I can have hope!
    Spoiler:
    Sam and his brothers actually do find dragonglass in the S2 episode The Prince of Winterfell.
    Oh really? Lol, well then! I clearly need to rewatch s2 (all of the NW/JS scenes are my least favorite generally which is why I probably didn't remember that part so well).
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    Game of Thrones is back!

    They did rush Selmy's reveal but I guess they thought the audience would recognize the character so they sped it along.

    And I loved Margaery's baby kissing at the orphanage. Even if it's pretense, she carries it well. Cersei and Joffrey couldn't fake it even if they tried
    Last edited by shipperx; 02-04-13 at 01:15 PM.
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    Yay show is back

    Although having read the books and talked about them at length it does make watching the season a very different experience Also I only read the books once, very fast so while I know everything that happened a lot of things I'm a bit fussy on the when they happen! I'm sure I'm going to love the season though, seeing it play out is really great and luckily I don't get too bothered when it deviates from the book a bit.

    Overall I thought it was a great episode, they really managed to kick the season off really well considering how much they had to cover!

    My highlight was was Dany.. especially when she goes to see the Unsullied! I'm glad the nipple removal wasn't too gruesome! I love that they put those subtitles in for the seller, in the book the things he says are just brilliant! I love little Missandei (this one..!)

    I was also confused at Selmy's early arrival but I guess it's true that the audience would recognise the actor and he wouldn't be able to just be part of her guard for the season!

    Book character
    Spoiler:
    Where is Strong Belwas though?!!


    I also really enjoyed Jon's meeting with Mance and Tormund Giantsbane. Looking forward to getting into his story a lot more this season. I felt he suffered a lot last season.. Just the way it played out didn't feel right for me. I hope they give him some good scenes with Ygritte.

    And Tyrion and Tywin, that was a great scene. Really brutal, brilliantly acted. Wow.. just what does Tywin think he can do with Casterly Rock? Anything except give it to his rightful son. Peter is such a great actor. Did anyone else catch HBO's April Fool that he was being replaced for season 4!?

    Already excited for next week's episode!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sherrilina View Post
    No, they have more like 13-15 episodes, since they are breaking up ASOS into multiple seasons--so I was actually rather concerned to see them racing so fast through Dany's storyline (they seriously skipped to like half-way through the book at the very least, maybe further), because I would hate for them to burn through it too quickly and resort to making up stuff like last season, when unlike in book 2 she does have a decently meaty story. Maybe they will shift some of the pre-Astapor stuff to now though, since the timing of meeting Barristan is also different, IDK. I wished they could have kept his identity a mystery until the end like in the book, though I guess that wouldn't have worked on TV when we've seen the actor before.
    Well the pre-Astapor stuff was not my favourite thing in the book so I didn't mind that they skipped that, for now at least. And yes it really would not have worked on the TV show to constantly see a character we as viewers know but Dany and Ser Jorah would have no idea as to who he is. In fact, that would have been pretty annoying so I'm glad that they revealed his identity straight away.

    I hope this early reveal won't mean that (ASOS spoiler)
    Spoiler:
    Barristan's reveal about You Know Who and that breaking of ties won't come earlier as well!
    Yes I'm with you on that one.
    Spoiler:
    However, I don't see the writers revealing this too early, it could be a nice cliffhanger for the next season. Hopefully we will get plenty of good interactions between the two characters before this regretful event takes place.


    Lol having just recently read that book, I'd say it was almost entirely lifted verbatim from the book, it was so close...great scene indeed! It was one of my favorites there, and the actors did such a fantastic job with it here.
    I thought it might have been, the words sounded really familiar. And yes, both Charles Dance and Peter Dinklage are fantastic actors who made the scene their own and knocked it out of the park.

    IDK, I disagree...Books
    Spoiler:
    Littlefinger just seems a lot less clever on the show, the way he just drops his plans about where anyone can hear, and it kind of ruins that awesome reveal in the end...and I wonder now is Ros supposedly going to try to undermine these plans? And does this mean that Sansa will be complicit in the murder or You Know Who if she's in on it from the beginning?
    Well personally (major book spoilers!)
    Spoiler:
    I always found Ser Dontos a bit ridiculous and an unlikely ally for Littlefinger, I mean how could Littlefinger be sure that Ser Dontos would keep quiet about the plan what with his drinking problem and all? Plus it has already been revealed in the season 2 finale that Littlefinger was the one who would help Sansa escape so going back on that in the season 3 premiere would have made no sense whatsoever. As for Sansa being complicit in a certain character's murder, I hope not. I hope in this instance the show will stick to the books because I wouldn't want that for Sansa's character.


    Don't despair, it actually does come later! (ASOS spoilers)
    Spoiler:
    Sam did NOT kill a White Walker during the Battle of the Fist, but later, while they are on the march back to the Wall (which it sounds like they are about to embark on at the end of this epp)--Sam can't keep up and begins to fall further and further behind, and eventually he is all alone aside from a few other friends, and a White Walker comes upon them, and THEN Sam stabs him with dragonglass. Although as I recall, they didn't find any dragonglass in s2, so unless he finds some on the road immediately before encountering the WW, they might not have the scene.
    Spoiler:


    So the Sam scene we saw in the season 3 premiere was still from A Clash of Kings? I haven't read that book in a long while and didn't remember that moment. But then again, I'm not that interested and gripped by the Sam chapters anyway so maybe that's why I got confused. Plus of course timing-wise it does not help that Sam and co. find the dragonglass in the season 2 finale immediately before the scene in the season 3 premiere.

    Though alas, it does not really gain any respect for Sam from his brothers, when they call him "Slayer" it's a mocking term. They think it's funny/unlikely.
    I disagree, I don't think that this applies to all the brothers. Grenn and the other brothers who were with Sam when he killed the White Walker and thus saved their lives do not mean it in a mocking manner IMO. At least that's not how it came across in the book for me. *shrugs*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post
    Spoiler:
    So the Sam scene we saw in the season 3 premiere was still from A Clash of Kings? I haven't read that book in a long while and didn't remember that moment. But then again, I'm not that interested and gripped by the Sam chapters anyway so maybe that's why I got confused. Plus of course timing-wise it does not help that Sam and co. find the dragonglass in the season 2 finale immediately before the scene in the season 3 premiere.
    Ah sorry, that was an error on my part. Sam and his brothers find the dragonglass weapons in 2x08 The Prince of Winterfell. So it's not in the finale. But while we're at it: The opening sequence was actually one of the weakest points of the premiere, mainly because for non-book readers it was difficult to process what was happening. I mean, it took me a while to put 2+2 together and conclude that the White Walkers met Mormont's men and a battle ensued. Also, in the S2 finale Sam, Grenn and Edd were looking for fuel material when the White Walkers' army came upon them and they weren't anywhere near the Fist, so I was baffled when Mormont asked Sam if he set the ravens fee. He was caught in a blizzard, how on earth should he have gotten to the ravens? I am not even sure it is mentioned in S2 that Sam is responsible for the ravens. Anyway, the whole scene confused the hell out of me.

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    Oddly enough, I just today bought Season 1 on DVD, and they discuss the opening on a commentary, and the whole pilot was redesigned around that opening so that the non-book reading audience (which will be most of it, to be sure) would have an idea of what the threat beyond the wall actually was like. It was going to start with just the deserter showing up and the execution, but they realized that talking about "others" and a "wall" without giving the audience a visual sense of what those things meant in this setting, they would confuse a lot of people.

    I actually really enjoyed it as a cold open. It really made me sit up and pay attention, the whole evil undead zombie-Fremen menace (factoids -- that was the actress, not a doll, on the tree as the writers apparently hear people say a lot, but she was also 19, which seems hard to believe. They could have cast her as Arya for as young as she seems).

    Also going to stick up for the Sam/Ravens thing even though, no, they didn't establish it before hand, but in context a) it's exactly the sort of job Samwell would get, and b) the moment is just too rich for the not-quite-exactly-said "you had one job".

    I'm loving the White Walkers as a concept, and the Night's Watch are at least mostly the actual "good guys" out of all this, not the petty squabbling houses in the Seven Kingdoms. The Iron Throne will be worth so much scrap if they can't stand against what winter will bring. That's also why I like Jon Snow's "real" answer, as I said above -- he wants to save the world, and he'll be on whichever side that is.

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    Tyrion was far too arrogant with Tywin. On the BRs, we see that
    Spoiler:
    Tywin used to be the Hand of the King to King Aerys II. Jaime was only made a member of the Kingsguard by Aerys II as a diss to Tywin.


    Tywin is the “rightful” Hand of the King” and Jaime is the “rightful” heir to Casterly Rock.

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    Tywin's time as Hand in the past is brought up in the series, I believe. Tyrion never disputes that Tywin had the prerogative to serve Joffrey himself (bolder would have been to call him out on not still being out there battling Robb Stark). But Tyrion raises the point that Jaime disclaimed his right to inherit Casterly Rock by taking up his cloak, so he wouldn't be the "rightful" heir at that point. Of all the things Tyrion could ask for "not being screwed out of what would be his without any ambiguity if he were but two feet taller" doesn't seem all that unfair to me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cori View Post
    So has anyone seen the season 3 premiere yet?
    I think I'm up to three times.

    My favourite part was Dany's storyline, so happy that her storyline this season will be so much better than season 2's.
    I'm looking forward to Dany's story this year. I knew that in last year there was going to have to be some excessive padding because in the book she pretty much wandered the desert for at least half the novel. This year they actually have far more story to work with so -- yay!

    I loved the reveal and re-entry of Ser Barristan Selmy, that was nicely done!
    I understand why they changed it from the book. On the show it's hard to hide who he is because not only would the bookreaders know but so would anyone re-watching the DVDs catching on. So I'm not complaining at all. It made for a nice episode ending. Though, I did like that in the book he hung around in disguise for a while judging Dany's character before choosing to pledge himself. The show comes off a tad bit differently because he revealed himself straight off, but again, I'm not complaining. And I'm looking forward to the Selmy/Jorah/Dany stuff.


    The Tywin and Tyrion scene was fantastic and some of the dialogue seemed to be word for word from the book.
    In the books I hated, hated, hated Tywin (same with Cersei).

    The Tywin/Arya scenes last year lent show!Tywin more humanity than Book!Tywin revealed (and they've made Cersei more human as well). I consider this to be an improvement.

    Still, that scene was brutal (and I think it is close to word for word to what was in the novel). Show!Tywin may be more human (though let's not forget that even in the show, Tywin demanded and paid for the public gangrape of Tyrion's Tysha. Plus, what he ordered (?) or at least allowed with impugnity(?) The Mountain to do to Rhaegar Targaryen's wife, the Dornish Princess, during Robert's coup (covered in last season's extras, so it's show canon too). So 'more human' is relative). Still, for a guy obsessed with his potential 'dynasty,' he's a truly awful father.

    Poor Tyrion, he really is in a sucky situation right now. Book spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    At least he got to keep his nose!
    Thank goodness!

    Loved Margaery and how she does charitable work and is like the complete opposite from Joffrey!
    That was great. Joffrey and Cersei are like "What is this 'compassion' thng? And with COMMONERS? SERIOUSLY?!!" I realize that Marg is being savvy and political (no wonder she got along with Renly). But even if it is partly (mostly?) pretense, it's a pretense that neither Joff nor Cersei could pull off for even half an hour!

    And I am so looking forward to the entry of Marg's and Loras' granny!

    I cannot wait to see more of Sansa and Littlefinger's plans. Book spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    I think the creators made a wise choice here by scrapping Ser Dontos and going straight to Littlefinger.
    Yeah. I agree. The books can get away with having a bazillion characters, but I do think it serves the show to consolidate so that the main characters do stuff whenever they can. Which I suppose is what they're doing with (future show spoiler)
    Spoiler:
    moving up Theon's Book V stuff rather than having Theon MIA for a couple of years, which... OMG, I hope they aren't too graphic!
    Speaking of, I noticed (current episode observation linked to a book spoiler for future GOT event!)
    Spoiler:
    The insignia on Roose Bolton's jerkin this week is the same contraption Theon is shown on in the trailers. I gather from some of the reviews that they don't immediately reveal whose clutches Theon has fallen into, but copying that insignia is a nice little easter egg.


    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    Tyrion never disputes that Tywin had the prerogative to serve Joffrey himself (bolder would have been to call him out on not still being out there battling Robb Stark). But Tyrion raises the point that Jaime disclaimed his right to inherit Casterly Rock by taking up his cloak, so he wouldn't be the "rightful" heir at that point. Of all the things Tyrion could ask for "not being screwed out of what would be his without any ambiguity if he were but two feet taller" doesn't seem all that unfair to me
    Exactly right. If Tyrion was anyone other than a dwarf, he would have been the acknowledged heir to Casterly Rock twenty years earlier! (Based on Joffrey's apparent age and the fact that Jaime became King's Guard when Cersei became Queen.)

    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    By the way, I was a tad confused that Ghost joined Mormont and his men instead of following Jon. Is that from the books?
    I don't remember. I vaguely remember Ghost wandering off 'hunting' a lot and think(?)
    Spoiler:
    Jon may have chased Ghost off at some point, telling him to return to the Wall. I think. I'm not certain. But
    if that's the case then I can easily see the show thinking "close enough!"

    Regardless, it was great to see Ghost again.

    Now, I want to see wooly mammoths! Please show, at least one mammoth!

    Quote Originally Posted by galathea View Post
    and I am sad that they apparently skipped that.
    Right now, I'm not yet assuming that they have. I think for various and sundry reasons it's highly possible that they simply relocated it in the timeline. It would lower production costs if they put their budget eggs in one basket, so to speak. After all
    Spoiler:
    they went to the trouble to have Sam actually discover the dragon glass last season, so it's reasonable to expect that it's Chekov's dragon glass
    and (future plot spoiler!(
    Spoiler:
    Perhaps they're rolling it into a future event that's scheduled to happen in a few episodes.
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    I'd also like to defend Tywin slightly that his main objections to Tyrion don't ultimately seem to be that he's a dwarf -- at least not going by that scene. Yes, he's clearly ashamed/embarrassed by what he thinks Tyrion's stature says about the Lion, but the bottom line of his vow to stand against man and gods is that Casterly Rock not be turned into his whorehouse. He has a way bigger problem with Tyrion as wenching and wining his way through life, I think. Which is... valid?

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    Perhaps, but I still have issues with it based on a few things.

    1) Tyrion isn't 'allowed' to marry (really. I mean, he did but that was done away with quite quickly, and you can tell from elsewhere in the series that arranged marriages were the expected) and Tywin in all these years has never sought to arrange one for Tyrion. Given the societal structure of 'ladies' not (at least officially) engaging in such activities, was Tyrion supposed to remain celebate throughout all these years (28+ in the books, 42 based on Dinklage's age, who knows how old show!Tyrion is supposed to be.)

    2) He is a dwarf and there is that underlying insecurity and fear of not being found to be physically attractive and of being rejected sexually. Whores... are safe.

    3) Tywin really, REALLY did a number on his head with the deal with Tysha. Tyrion fell tip over teakettle in love with the innocent peasant girl that he crossed paths with and married. He was young and naive and truly believed that she'd fallen in love with him. Considering the dirth of love in his life, that was a huge deal to him. Then Jaime tells her that she's a prostitute followed by Tywin taking her out and having her gangraped in front of Tyrion and paid for it to "show" Tyrion that she was a prostitute. So if Tyrion has some strange hang-up regarding prostitutes, I consider Tywin as having had a significant role in creating it.
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