Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 127

Thread: Buffy, 9.19 "Welcome to the Team, part 4" Discussion Thread (FULL SPOILERS)

  1. #41
    Dedicated Spike Fan Maggie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    4,355
    Thanks
    1,700
    Thanked 4,117 Times in 1,068 Posts

    Default

    Awesome post, Emmie. I don't know if the conversation with Xander was the place to hope for Buffy to work out her feelings about Angel's role in the fiasco (and especially the fact that she was his victim)... but that's the other piece that's making it hard/impossible to relate to Buffy. And I think you are bang on right that they aren't ever going to deal with that pile o' crap because Buffy/Angel are meant for each other, now and forever more, amen.

    What I don't get is what Joss was thinking. Surely he had to know that season 8 stands or falls depending on how the fallout is dealt with?

    "I don't want to be this good-looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear." Banner Credit: Vampmogs

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Maggie For This Useful Post:

    Emmie (13-03-13),Local Maximum (13-03-13)

  3. #42
    Slayer Emmie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Over the Rainbow
    Posts
    3,163
    Thanks
    1,412
    Thanked 2,405 Times in 575 Posts

    Default

    Honestly, Maggie, I think Joss broke up with the Buffy comics without actually saying, "We're over," so the DH creative team has been treading water hoping he'll call back. If Joss were around, I think he would be interested in dealing with the fallout since that's his M.O., even if he deals with the fallout indirectly through foils (like Spike/Angel). But I'm not seeing Joss and haven't for a long while.

    Joss isn't coming back and nobody else stepped up to the plate to put the story first, to live up to the TV series' legacy. So the story is falling prey to self-indulgence (see: Billy) and marketing strategies (see: Spike and Willow in separate titles at the expense of Buffy's title).
    Last edited by Emmie; 13-03-13 at 10:32 PM.

    Banner Set by thedothatgirl

  4. The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to Emmie For This Useful Post:

    1701EarlGrey (13-03-13),ami (13-03-13),Athanos (14-03-13),cil_domney (14-03-13),Dipstick (13-03-13),Goyt (13-03-13),Local Maximum (13-03-13),lulay (16-03-13),Maggie (13-03-13),Miss Kitty (13-03-13),Reddygirl (14-03-13),Sienna (14-03-13),TimeTravellingBunny (13-03-13),Tranquillity (13-03-13)

  5. #43
    What? KingofCretins's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Big Honkin' Castle
    Posts
    13,715
    Thanks
    234
    Thanked 3,907 Times in 1,844 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    I don't much agree with Xander's subsequent bit about the world being worse off etc. They all have been doing the best they could. But I'd also say that Buffy hasn't given him anywhere to go. She hasn't once acknowledged in the conversation that she ever did anything that might have anything to do with Dawn's situation. It was the universe or a prophecy or Giles or (martyred voice) her own commitment to saving the world.
    I didn't need Buffy to sound more contrite in this conversation. Gibbs' Rule #6 may not be a universal truth, but there is certainly a grain of truth in it (Never say you're sorry. It's a sign of weakness.) It doesn't accomplish anything at this point.

    As for Xander talking about the world getting worse, I think it is really fascinating stuff. If I dare use a racing metaphor for the 4th Wall, Xander's comment trades paint with the #4 car. The world has to get worse every time Buffy saves it, or whatever she's saving it from won't feel sufficiently challenging. But surely he can't be implying it's better to not save it, so what can his frustration yield? Does he think she's doing it wrong, that there's a better way? I don't know. But I want to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by shipperx View Post
    Translation please? I think there's something interesting there, but I have no idea what that last sentence means (or even what it's referring to).
    I'm saying it would have been a better thing to just have Buffy, herself, of her own free will, say "f#$% it, I like this 'we rule all of creation'" idea and buy in for an issue and a half. No glow, no influence, just Buffy looking it dead in the face and making the wrong choice. Then having a moment of clarity and changing course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmie View Post
    What bothers me most about the way the season is shaping up -- and I think we're finally seeing it reach its final form -- is how simplistic it's become.

    Why'd we wait nearly an entire season for Dawn to begin fading away? Why'd we wait nearly an entire season for Xander to blow up in Buffy's face?

    This should be the gamechanger moment. This is episode 7 of every season. Why's it been put on hold? Why has dealing with Season 8 been delayed to the cost of actually creating an interesting and compelling Season 9?
    I know what I'd say the answer is, but it's always been terribly impolitic of me to point out. "A bit honest," as drunk Giles might have said. There were very important boxes to be checked off, and checking them off took up more than a third of the season's issues so far. It's just that simple for me. It annoys the crap out of me, too. Had the TV show been approached the way Season 9 has for its Social Consciousness Points, "The Body" would have been promoted as far in advance as the Musical was, for being Tara and Willow's kiss, and oh yeah by the way Buffy's mom dies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    Buffy didn't have sex with RJ in 'Him', she is straddling him in the class room but the script says that he is fully clothed. It probably would have gone that far if Xander hadn't arrived I suppose, but it hadn't.
    Well, RJ being fully clothed is really more of importance to the costume department... it doesn't actually, uh, stop anything by necessity. I've actually found the shooting script to have more salacious implications than what they actually shot did.

    Banner by LRae12

  6. #44
    Slayer
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,527
    Thanks
    587
    Thanked 3,044 Times in 1,081 Posts

    Default

    I have my copy of Buffy # 19.The conclusion of "Welcome To The Team."

    I thought this issue was a strong issue and this was a strong arc overall.Probably one of the stronger ones in Buffy this season.

    First of all.The council really didn't prove useful and came off cowardly.Plus Koh still doesn't get what he wants.I'm wondering what type of payoff they'll be on that if any this season.For that matter,Remember all the mystery around Buffy's mysterious neighbor?Nothing ever came of that and early on Scott sure seemed to make it seem like there was something interesting coming there unless that was only supposed to be a red herring for the pregnancy plot.

    Anyway.Illyria.It's pretty freaky seeing basically Fred's form walking around in the leather.I'm curious about Spike's reaction when he returns.I find it a bit disconcerting so I can imagine he would too.I have to admit,I can see why the speculation of Spike having his demon burnt out by Severin and being left mortal has increased after this issue in regards to what we see with Illyria.And it does make me wonder if a part of Fred's soul is still there despite Illyria and everyone believing it isn't.I will also admit if that does happen and Spike becomes mortal via Severin and it's a part of trying to push Buffy and Spike together,I'll be pretty disappointed.I won't lie and say that this isn't my shipper preferences speaking because it is.But that's honestly how I feel..

    I also liked Illyria's dynamic with Buffy in this issue.More and more I do wonder how much Joss was planning to write for Illyria this season since he was saving her for himself.Was Joss originally going to write this arc only or the finale or both?

    The Billy/Anaheed reveal was given away in the preview pages.I do wonder if there is more to it than Anaheed just watching Buffy's back in secret.Can't wait for Buffy's reaction.

    As many guessed,that stronger zompire was part of Simone's crew and Simone's plan has shades of Adam from season 4 IMO.I think Simone's plan is on the lame side and still feel both her and Severin are the weakest big bads Buffy's ever had.They just seem so small potatoes and not terribly interesting.Severin's powers seem a gimmick IMO and I this team up with Simone is so eh.

    Whistler over in Angel & Faith runs rings around both and even Pearl and Nash work better as lackeys.I sort of see Whistler as the big bad in A & F and Pearl and Nash as the little bads in the Amy and Warren role for Twilight last season.

    The meat of the issue was the Dawn plot and the confrontation between Xander and Buffy.I'm glad Buffy agreed with trying the bot idea even though we knew it wouldn't work.I'm actually thankful it just not worked and didn't make things worse for Dawn.

    The key/mystical energy reveal was a long time coming and there was much speculation on that after Buffy S8 # 39 came out.So it's not a surprise but I can sort of by it be a gradual thing instead of Dawn just fading away/dying instantly after the seed was destroyed.Jeez,I remember speculation about Dawn's keyness coming into play as far back as after season 5 so it was about time and the situation as Illyria described for why this is happening works for me.

    The Xander/Buffy showdown was intense but was long expected all season and Buffy seeing signs of Xander PTSD was also due.There is much debate about the confrontation.I won't get into any of that.I'll just say that I feel for both of them in this situation.The most important thing now though is to try to work together to save this person they both love so much.And I'm glad that seems to be the indication at the end of the issue with Buffy and Xander departing together even if Xander is angry with Buffy.

    I'm going to throw this out there.Does anybody think season 9 will end sort of like season 4,Angel season 4,After the Fall and season 8?Where the main arc ends a episode/issue early and the last issue of the season is a coda(Restless,Home,ATF #17,S8 # 40).After this arc,it feels like to me anyway that issue 25 being a coda issue might be warranted.

    So very strong finish to this arc and a strong arc a whole.
    Last edited by BAF; 13-03-13 at 08:22 PM.

  7. #45
    Bronze Party-Goer 1701EarlGrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    108
    Thanks
    85
    Thanked 55 Times in 34 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    Buffy didn't have sex with RJ in 'Him', she is straddling him in the class room but the script says that he is fully clothed. It probably would have gone that far if Xander hadn't arrived I suppose, but it hadn't.
    Yes, now I read the script and you are right, but without reading the script this whole situation isn't so obviou - after all in a lot of scenes involving Spike and Buffy in season 6 ( for exemple infamous balkony scene) both of them were fully clothed... But since Xander didn't say something like: zip your fly, boy! then I think Buffy and RJ didn't do this after all.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to 1701EarlGrey For This Useful Post:

    Stoney (13-03-13)

  9. #46
    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    8,054
    Thanks
    10,970
    Thanked 12,979 Times in 5,395 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    Well, RJ being fully clothed is really more of importance to the costume department... it doesn't actually, uh, stop anything by necessity. I've actually found the shooting script to have more salacious implications than what they actually shot did.
    Sure take your point but I really don't think it is at all in play. It doesn't fit the mood of the episode even. It was a nod to the 'naughty teacher' fantasy cliche but I don't think they for a moment were really having Buffy riding her student on the desk. I think everything about it, visual/script etc falls in with that and not for one moment was she actually just chatting to Xander whilst caught 'in action' to that extent. Anyway, off topic.

  10. #47
    Evil Twin
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    3,965
    Thanks
    232
    Thanked 259 Times in 189 Posts

    Default

    So wait, the plan to transfer Dawn's mind to the bot didn't work? Did they say why not?
    “The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” -- Albert Einstein

  11. #48
    What? KingofCretins's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Big Honkin' Castle
    Posts
    13,715
    Thanks
    234
    Thanked 3,907 Times in 1,844 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PointMan View Post
    So wait, the plan to transfer Dawn's mind to the bot didn't work? Did they say why not?
    Not squarely, but by implication it's because... it's just not going to work. Tab A does not go in Slot B, Dawn's consciousness is unraveling in kind as her body does. Metaphorically, I'd construe them as meaning that whatever Andrew's process is can't get a grip on Dawn's "Dawnness" in order to move it anywhere.

    Probably for the best to just assume RJ and Buffy never did copulate there, because I don't relish the image of having to have spent the last decade explaining that RJ did not rape her.

    Banner by LRae12

  12. #49
    Slayer
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    2,524
    Thanks
    4,539
    Thanked 3,756 Times in 1,623 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    I didn't need Buffy to sound more contrite in this conversation. Gibbs' Rule #6 may not be a universal truth, but there is certainly a grain of truth in it (Never say you're sorry. It's a sign of weakness.) It doesn't accomplish anything at this point.
    Making three different excuses and blaming Giles also looks very weak. Curiously, Buffy really shuts up angry, defensive or invasive Scoobies best by verbally appealing to how much stress and pressure she's under and what tragedy she's gone through. See Prophecy Girl, Reptile Boy, Seeing Red, Tabula Rasa/OMWF, Spiral, Dawn in Forever, Get it Done, The Gift with Giles, etc. It's pretty rare that it doesn't work.

    Xander is in a dark, angry place. However if Xander adhered to his normal arguing/dealing with Buffy patterns, I really think Buffy could have gotten him off her back if she said what Emmie suggested. "Angel systematically tortured and broke me. He tried to break all of us, you remember what hell last year was for all of us. Everyone has a breaking point and Angel, expert on torture that he is, brought me to mine. I'd give anything to take that moment back."

    It would have been very effective to get Xander back on Buffy's side:
    a) To make Xander sympathetic to Buffy's plight which is Xander's default position
    b) To establish a common bond between Buffy and Xander which has been severed in the last year- remind Xander that they were in the same boat
    c) Show that Buffy is wise to who Angel is now when she's sober and has considered S8
    d) Give Xander a figure that Xander would honestly rather focus his anger on- Angel
    As for Xander talking about the world getting worse, I think it is really fascinating stuff. If I dare use a racing metaphor for the 4th Wall, Xander's comment trades paint with the #4 car. The world has to get worse every time Buffy saves it, or whatever she's saving it from won't feel sufficiently challenging. But surely he can't be implying it's better to not save it, so what can his frustration yield? Does he think she's doing it wrong, that there's a better way? I don't know. But I want to know.
    As I said above, it's a sister comment to Willow saying that maybe she shouldn't have resurrected Buffy and instead, the Scoobies should have retired from fighting evil.

    Obviously, Xander wants the world to exist. That's not even a question in the very speech where Xander is angsting about Dawn dying and quality on life going down and how the Seed was necessary to avoid the world going to shit.

    I don't know what specific things Xander thinks the Scoobs did wrong in saving the world to make it worse. However, there is this dejected, utterly low-confidence line of thought that Scoobies seem to engage that they aren't good enough to be charged with evil-fighting and world-saveage because they frak stuff up and instead, they should have left a vacuum to allow more professional, better people and institutions take over.

    Xander, for one, embraced Scoobying the hardest this season when it was about establishing authority of the police to fight zompires (educating and helping Dowling) and establishing jurisdiction of the police over Buffy (9.03).

    ETA: I don't get where the 9.01 Buffy/Xander conversation about Dawn "not needing to know" fits into this. Is that ever going to be brought back or will it go the way of the First Slayer calling Willow to a mission to restore magic?

  13. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Dipstick For This Useful Post:

    ami (14-03-13),Athanos (14-03-13),cil_domney (14-03-13),Emmie (13-03-13),Local Maximum (13-03-13),Maggie (13-03-13),Reddygirl (14-03-13),shipperx (13-03-13),TimeTravellingBunny (13-03-13)

  14. #50
    Evil Twin
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    3,965
    Thanks
    232
    Thanked 259 Times in 189 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post
    ETA: I don't get where the 9.01 Buffy/Xander conversation about Dawn "not needing to know" fits into this. Is that ever going to be brought back or will it go the way of the First Slayer calling Willow to a mission to restore magic?
    Next issue seems like its going to be the big Xander issue where we find out about whats ailing him. Mayhaps that is when we find out what the deal is there? I'm still of the mind that Buffy doesn't know what was going on with Xander there but was simply trying to get him to open up.
    “The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.” -- Albert Einstein

  15. #51
    What? KingofCretins's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Big Honkin' Castle
    Posts
    13,715
    Thanks
    234
    Thanked 3,907 Times in 1,844 Posts

    Default

    You're right, if anything, the exchange in 9.01 is actually more confusing right now, not less. It actually got more opaque after this exchange. Could it have just been a reference back to residual 8.31 awkwardness? Eh, that would make more sense if Xander hadn't already been comfortable enough with Buffy staying at their place.

    Banner by LRae12

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to KingofCretins For This Useful Post:

    Dipstick (13-03-13)

  17. #52
    Slayer Emmie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Over the Rainbow
    Posts
    3,163
    Thanks
    1,412
    Thanked 2,405 Times in 575 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post
    ETA: I don't get where the 9.01 Buffy/Xander conversation about Dawn "not needing to know" fits into this. Is that ever going to be brought back or will it go the way of the First Slayer calling Willow to a mission to restore magic?
    That's where I pin the Joss-peaced-out point because that scene is so full of emotional resonance (but sadly lacking rocket launchers), then it's just forgotten after that issue.

    I still think it's one of the best scenes in the entire season and it makes no sense. Haha. I mean, I have no idea what's going on, but my heart cares about that moment more than all the rest of the season, that scene and when Buffy's poolside with Spike.
    Last edited by Emmie; 13-03-13 at 10:22 PM.

    Banner Set by thedothatgirl

  18. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Emmie For This Useful Post:

    ami (14-03-13),Athanos (14-03-13),cil_domney (14-03-13),Dipstick (13-03-13),Local Maximum (13-03-13),Maggie (13-03-13),Morphia (14-03-13),TimeTravellingBunny (13-03-13)

  19. #53
    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Blighty
    Posts
    8,054
    Thanks
    10,970
    Thanked 12,979 Times in 5,395 Posts

    Default

    There was a visual link though to Buffy trying to put her hand to Xander in support again, just this time it was firmly rejected. So either the significance is just that he is angry with her now, wasn't then, or they were both about Dawn maybe. I still think that if 9.01 was about Dawn Buffy would have been more upset or they would have been 'researching' the issue, so I think that was about personal issues for Xander then, possibly to do with Giles (as he was also mentioned again between them now) or about stepping out of the fight. I'd vote Giles if I had to.

  20. #54
    Scooby Gang
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    513
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 17 Times in 11 Posts

    Default

    Since I haven't posted in a while, I agree with more Maggie's point of view. Also in case anyone needs reminding, the writer actually clearly stated a year ago maybe even longer now, that Buffy had agency and not some drugged up victim that wasn't able to own her own actions, or else he wouldn't have implicated Buffy as the one who betrayed himself. The fact that he actually wrote the comic, I think sorta well proves she isn't some victim of prophetcy or that there is still some sort of mystery on her being responsible for her own actions. However, I'm in no way saying Angel isn't responsible for his actions as well. Also digust at Buffy trying to blame Giles, as if some prophetcy makes her less responsible for what happened.

    I'm not trying to write an anti-Buffy post or anything but I am glad Xander finally addressed the elephant in the room, since he has a history of calling Buffy on her actions, its about time. If the writers wanted to make Buffy sympathetic it would help if she was actually truly owning her actions, instead of going well go ahead blame me, Twilight did it, there was a prophecy crap, or that she didn't have any sorta of previous warning from her failures in season 2 and season 7 that should have made it obvious her relations with both Spike and Angel endanger others, even Angel had learned this lesson way back in season 2, and then the writers would truly make her sympathetic, though I'm sure denial is stilll in play though. Although, Willow on the other hand is way more empowering right now, she owns her dark actions, rightfully makes Angel admit he isn't some poor victim and should learn from his actions already, and she acts forgiving which as a person isn't always easy, less so when the person isn't always deserving of it. Well at least I can say there is hope, that Buffy could become more deserving of the sympathy that the writers have been trying to force on us since issue 40, in a very annoying way, and not to convincingly either. Although, I hope its obvious I'm being cynical right now, and I'm not at all a victim blamer either.
    Last edited by tripie7; 13-03-13 at 11:11 PM.

  21. #55
    Slayer
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    1,195
    Thanks
    2,850
    Thanked 3,288 Times in 911 Posts

    Default

    So. That was that then.

    I don't want to be too negative, because this issue was better than the last few. But I am emotionally detached, so it's hard to know where to start or what to say.

    The plot stuff is mostly what we thought -- Dawn's keyness means she's fading. Simone's making zompire vampires slayers.

    Illyria going brunette I didn't anticipate, I guess. My main thoughts so far are that Jeanty's drawing really doesn't look like Amy Acker -- it was easier to ignore that when she had the blue hair; and that given that Illyria's whole identity is totally wrapped up in her power and Old One status, she sure was blase about being seemingly humanish not!Fred in a leather outfit.

    On the Xander-Buffy conversation: at last, someone pointed out in season nine in story that Buffy's Seed Smashing was not the problem. Of course, this was already pointed out a while ago, back when Kennedy pointed out that Buffy super-literally #$*@ed everything up. Yup. But anyway --

    FWIW, neither Buffy nor Xander give their all to this argument. This is how arguments go in real life. But still, Xander basically accepts that Buffy had no choice to do what she did but he's still mad at her, which sucks for him. Buffy doesn't give a centimetre, out loud, to her own culpability, such as it is. Blaming Giles is bad. Saying she was trying to save the world is true, but incomplete.

    Emmie is right that Buffy misses the big, honking, obvious point -- ANGEL TORTURED HER EMOTIONALLY, DELIBERATELY. Come on guys. Even if you don't want to blame Angel for it, it's still Twilight-Angel's plan all along.

    I also wish -- I don't know. I don't know what I am supposed to wish for. But I want the fire back in this story. And I could just see Buffy as really, genuinely angry at what Xander accused her of. Every time Buffy tries to save the world, she makes it worse, Xander? Buffy could have and (IMHO) should have pointed out that Xander followed her, supported her, and enabled her every. single. step of the way, up to and including issue #32, while Dawn was yelling about Monkey's Paws and Xander ignored her. He supported the bank robbing and the robbing of submarines and the retreat; her mission was his mission. I mean, I guess he didn't support her killing Future Willow or the like, so it's not quite all of it; but if Buffy's moment of weakness in #33 is the result of her mission to save the world Xander has to recognize he's in on it too. And that probably is eating him up as much as his anger at Buffy. I would have preferred that to putting things on Giles' inactions, which yes sucked but are kind of far afield.

    Mostly though, I miss Buffy. Not just the fire back in terms of anger. But in terms of emotion. Dawn is dying, Buff. I know she cares...because she says she does, but Buffy's wistful sad look isn't conveying the thing. Xander's anger, while one-note, feels real to me -- it feels like how he would react and deal. But Buffy seems sort of sad and resigned to Dawn dying. This is the woman who went catatonic at the end of Spiral, right? Certainly, she shouldn't be catatonic about it right now (she's past that now), but Buffy trying to be the calm-headed soothing balm to Xander's pain at the prospect of losing Dawn is backwards and all tied up in knots. Buffy's pain and anger and hurt and guilt should jump off the page, but she remains depressingly two-dimensional.

    ETA: catching up on the thread. Maggie hits at one of the essential elements of the Buffy/Xander scene -- that BUFFY approached XANDER and would not give him the space he asked for. That doesn't mean that Xander gets a free pass for things that he said that were unfair/unreasonable -- but it does mean that the onus is MUCH MORE on Buffy to demonstrate why exactly she should continue being in his face when he's giving her reasons that he wants her out of it. I don't blame Buffy for trying to talk to him initially, and these are two people who get in each other's faces all the time -- but I think the fact that Buffy pushes in when she's not wanted makes the cons of what she says weigh a lot more on me than the cons of what Xander said.
    Last edited by Local Maximum; 13-03-13 at 11:31 PM.

  22. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Local Maximum For This Useful Post:

    ami (14-03-13),Athanos (14-03-13),cil_domney (14-03-13),Dipstick (14-03-13),Emmie (13-03-13),Maggie (13-03-13),Morphia (14-03-13),PointMan (14-03-13),Reddygirl (14-03-13),shipperx (13-03-13),TimeTravellingBunny (14-03-13),Tranquillity (14-03-13)

  23. #56
    Slayer shipperx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,542
    Thanks
    2,252
    Thanked 2,673 Times in 678 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    Probably for the best to just assume RJ and Buffy never did copulate there, because I don't relish the image of having to have spent the last decade explaining that RJ did not rape her.
    Considering that RJ was a minor, a student, and she was the school counselor, that would be the tip of the inappropriateness.

    I simply go lalalalala! No sex! No sex! Didn't happen.
    Learning Experience: "...one of those things that says, "You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.”
    ~Douglas Adams

  24. #57
    Slayer Jack Shaftoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    1,588
    Thanks
    284
    Thanked 890 Times in 456 Posts

    Default

    I am usually very much on Xander's side when he quarrels with Buffy but really the line about the world getting worse every time she saves it is one of the most stupid things anyone has said in this comic and they have said a lot of really stupid things. And of course, Dawn being in danger of dying because he seed makes no sense in the first place.

    Just when I thought Buffy couldn't be more pathetic this season it turns out Anaheed had been paying much of her rent. Buffy Summers, the hero who strives to be as much of a responsible adult as the early Joey Tribianni. Good job, Buff!
    Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

  25. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Jack Shaftoe For This Useful Post:

    cil_domney (14-03-13),MikeB (27-03-13),Stoney (14-03-13)

  26. #58
    Dedicated Spike Fan Maggie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    4,355
    Thanks
    1,700
    Thanked 4,117 Times in 1,068 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Local Maximum View Post

    Emmie is right that Buffy misses the big, honking, obvious point -- ANGEL TORTURED HER EMOTIONALLY, DELIBERATELY. Come on guys. Even if you don't want to blame Angel for it, it's still Twilight-Angel's plan all along.
    The more I think about it, the more I think this is the source of the fail I wrote about explaining why I'm frustrated with Buffy's refusal to admit she has any responsibility here.

    It's because the writers have just assumed that Buffy has no beef with Angel on this point that they are never going to have her raise this defense of herself, which is the only way she can sympathetically defend herself. But for readers like me and thee and Emmie who can't erase the fact that Buffy damned well ought to have a beef with Angel from our minds, that means that any other defense Buffy appeals to implicitly includes an exoneration of Angel.

    And read that way, it makes it worse to read that scene. Buffy won't be honest with herself about the Twilight events because she won't be honest with herself about Angel, and the result is she can't even be honest with herself about how awful it is that Dawn is dying here. I'm sure the writers don't mean it that way -- but that is how it comes across given the assumption that Buffy had to be pretty beaten down in order to give into the glow.

    Buffy being all about self-defense in that scene (and implicitly thus also defending her beloved Angel) to the point of not even acknowledging the emotional impact of Dawn's situation is pretty much the essence of what is so crushing about season 9. And it does feel like the huge distortion in Buffy's character is driven by DH's commitment to preserving the road to a Bangel-uber-alles ending. Ugh. Ugh. Ugh.

    "I don't want to be this good-looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear." Banner Credit: Vampmogs

  27. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Maggie For This Useful Post:

    ami (14-03-13),cil_domney (14-03-13),Dipstick (14-03-13),Goyt (14-03-13),Local Maximum (13-03-13),Morphia (14-03-13),shipperx (13-03-13)

  28. #59
    Slayer
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    1,195
    Thanks
    2,850
    Thanked 3,288 Times in 911 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmie View Post
    Honestly, Maggie, I think Joss broke up with the Buffy comics without actually saying, "We're over," so the DH creative team has been treading water hoping he'll call back. If Joss were around, I think he would be interested in dealing with the fallout since that's his M.O., even if he deals with the fallout indirectly through foils (like Spike/Angel). But I'm not seeing Joss and haven't for a long while.

    Joss isn't coming back and nobody else stepped up to the plate to put the story first, to live up to the TV series' legacy. So the story is falling prey to self-indulgence (see: Billy) and marketing strategies (see: Spike and Willow in separate titles at the expense of Buffy's title).
    "I'll call you."

  29. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Local Maximum For This Useful Post:

    ami (14-03-13),Dipstick (14-03-13),Emmie (14-03-13)

  30. #60
    What? KingofCretins's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Big Honkin' Castle
    Posts
    13,715
    Thanks
    234
    Thanked 3,907 Times in 1,844 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shipperx View Post
    Considering that RJ was a minor, a student, and she was the school counselor, that would be the tip of the inappropriateness.

    I simply go lalalalala! No sex! No sex! Didn't happen.
    Is he textually established for age? I mean, there are some states that consider certain legal statuses, like teacher and student, illegal even if both parties have reached the age of consent and even the age of majority, but still -- my reaction was spending a decade trying to explain that he didn't rape her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Shaftoe View Post
    I am usually very much on Xander's side when he quarrels with Buffy but really the line about the world getting worse every time she saves it is one of the most stupid things anyone has said in this comic and they have said a lot of really stupid things. And of course, Dawn being in danger of dying because he seed makes no sense in the first place.

    Just when I thought Buffy couldn't be more pathetic this season it turns out Anaheed had been paying much of her rent. Buffy Summers, the hero who strives to be as much of a responsible adult as the early Joey Tribianni. Good job, Buff!
    Do you give no weight to the fact that it is an objectively true statement? As demonstrated, the Watsonian reality for these people are ever more dire crises every time they avert the last, driven by the Doylist necessity of making sure the audience feels engaged, that they aren't seeing something that they already know Buffy can and has dealt with.

    I'm not saying I get his point in bringing it up -- if he doesn't want it saved, that's hardly useful, or if he thinks there's some better way they could be going about it, he should say so -- but it can only be so stupid when it is an entirely accurate observation about their lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Local Maximum View Post
    "I'll call you."
    We've all been here before, while the series was still on television, though. I'm sure that Allie could give the same "hey, Joss is all over this" defense that we got when the sea changed back on UPN. If we were obliged to accept it then we're obliged to accept it now.

    Banner by LRae12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •