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Thread: Buffy, 9.19 "Welcome to the Team, part 4" Discussion Thread (FULL SPOILERS)

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky View Post
    Thanks. I know it wasn't your intent, but you just posted a link to a prime example of the intellectually dishonest, philosophically vapid and incoherent, "Xander is the Embodiment of Sexism and Misogyny and It's Offensive That He was Never Punished For It", utterly worthless bullshit I was talking about.

    Oh, and vampmogs, thanks ever so much for trying to shovel words into my mouth that I didn't say or intend.
    Last edited by Skippcomet; 31-03-13 at 12:26 PM.

  2. #122
    Moderator Sosa lola's Avatar
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    Guys, play nice! *friendly Mod reminder* Perhaps it's better to continue this discussion in the Xander thread.
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  3. #123
    What? KingofCretins's Avatar
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    One could also interpret "Revelations" as Xander simply speaking for the group, not as being the lone voice of disapproval. Notice that when Oz speaks up, and when Cordy speaks up... both are disputing whatever rationalization Buffy has recently thrown out.

    As for that blog... that's at the Joss is a rapist level of analytical credibility, is what that is.

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  4. #124
    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    One could also interpret "Revelations" as Xander simply speaking for the group, not as being the lone voice of disapproval.
    I never said he was the lone voice of disaproval. But speaking for the group? Nope. Willow is quite clearly distressed by his tone ("Giles! Nobody is using the I statements!") and Giles shuts it down once it gets too hostile. Not to mention that later in the episode Xander's actions manage to piss off both Buffy and Willow ("shut up and help me") and were at odds with Giles' stance on the whole thing. The group had clearly had some discussion about how they were going to approach Buffy ("this isn't about attacking Buffy. Remember, 'I' statements only. 'I feel angry.' 'I feel worried.'") which Xander disregarded entirely.

    Nobody had appointed Xander speaker for the group. The fact that every single person in that room speaks out at some point or another proves there wasn't one person meant to speak for everybody. Xander's just the only one (besides maybe Cordy, not surprisingly) who gets overly aggressive and hostile about it. I already gave Giles credit for the way he conducted himself and found his 'dressing down' of Buffy both justified and effective. Willow scores major brownie points with me for both worrying about her friend's feelings and relating Buffy's secrecy with her own hurtful secrets and dishonesty. Oz is completely justified to point out what he did and said so calmly etc.

    EDIT: Sorry Sosa I'll continue any more discussion in the Xander thread.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 31-03-13 at 01:55 PM.
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  6. #125
    Slayer MikeB's Avatar
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    All caught up


    * I’d like to point out that some posters seem to be taking Xander’s blaming Buffy for having sex with AngelTwilight as it being canon that Buffy is actually fully responsible for having sex with AngelTwilight.

    Xander’s blaming Buffy for having sex with AngelTwilight is merely Xander blaming Buffy for having sex with AngelTwilight.

    Joss in 8.40 had Spike telling Buffy that she was “controlled by forces no one understands”. Xander was never shown to have any idea what was actually going on with the whole Twilight thing, and there’s no indication he even knows about the glow. Spike is the one who knew about the Twilight stuff. Yet some posters are taking Xander’s opinion of Buffy over Spike’s actual knowledge of events.


    http://hoodedutilitarian.com/2012/03...ris-hyena-boy/ This is mostly another thread topic entirely. I put the link in the Xander thread in the General Discussions section: http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=15836 and gave some very general thoughts on it.




    KingofCretins

    * If Xander in “Weight of the World” (5.21) and some time after didn’t agree with Giles that Dawn should be killed, why did it take him possibly hours later to come up with any other solution to stopping Glory? Again, it seems you need to rewatch that ending scene in “WotW” and the beginning of “The Gift” (5.22). It seems clear Giles was speaking for the group (barring Willow).

    How are you going with "Spike (and Dowling)" setting up the VTF?
    I didn’t say Spike set up the VTF. I said Spike’s largely responsible for the VTF existing. Some poster had said that Xander was more responsible for the VTF existing than Spike was and I was simply disabusing that poster of that notion.



    Tallgent

    we didn’t really get a payoff to Severin stealing Illyria’s powers.
    Severin stole Illyria’s powers. Illyria’s still alive. That is a payoff.

    The show always impressed me with the scenes where Buffy’s shining white knight [Xander] and the Slayer were at odds
    Since when is Xander Buffy’s “shining white knight”?


    * Buffy’s even less responsible for having sex with AngelTwilight than she was for making out with Spike in “Something Blue” (4.09).


    * Buffy was a victim. She has nothing to feel sorry about regarding her having sex with AngelTwilight.

    But I think even insulting Giles finally stirs something in her. She went there. She actually sank as low as to blame Giles when he’s already passed on.
    Giles doesn’t get a “free pass” merely because he died. Enyos (Jenny’s uncle) apparently never told Jenny Calender of the perfect happiness clause; therefore, he’s largely responsible for his own death. The same with Giles. Giles could have easily told Buffy that if she ever suddenly gets SuperBuffy powers to make sure not to be with any vampire.

    Screw you, she’s my sister and I’m gonna help whether you want it or not.
    How is Buffy being unreasonable? Xander is merely Dawn’s current boyfriend.



    Skippcomet

    * The Buffy/Xander confrontations have long been a controversial part of the storytelling in Buffy, [/quote] Not really. Xander’s was in the wrong in “Dead Man’s Party” (3.02), in “Revelations” (3.07), and he’s in the wrong in BtVS 9.19.

  7. #126
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    Interesting thread, and I know it was a long time ago. But I recently began t think of the whole dawn fading thing and wanted to see if what touched upon here.

    I disagree with the idea that if dawn needed magic to survive she should have faded instantly. Lots of things do not work that way. Magic was sustaining the Dawn construct, and when it was taken away that construct began to decay.

    A leaf needs to be connected to a tree to stay alive, but when you pluck it the cells do not instantly wither into dust.

    As for buffy being brought back by magic, there is a difference in something being magic vs something being affected by magic. A fire that eternally burns by magic would go out, but a building destroyed by a magic fireball would not be rebuilt.

    Buffy was alive again, but she was not being sustained by magic. Dawn on the other hand continues to appear human, but she is still the key. Otherwise she would have been of no use to Glory and crazy people would just see a girl.


    The thing that bothers me is that while an argument for the false memories to fade can be made, the experiences that happened after the spell are not artificial. Angel's memory of dawn from when he lived in Sunnydale may be counterfeit, but memories of dawn after she was created are just memories.

    The illusion that is dawn fading should not undo the fact that it existed. She may revert to true key form or even fade away entirely, but are we to assume no one remembers the key ever existed in any form?

    The idea that she essentially would never have existed raises questions about season 5. Was Glory even after the key? If it was effectively never dawn, why couldn't she find it?


    If she is being fully edited from the timeline, in such a way that in addition to false memories, the actual memories disappear, then everything she did would be undone. There should have been ripple effects. For example, vampire she has staked reforming.

    , then again maybe when she fully faded those would have started

  8. #127
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    I may be hallucinating, but I thought I'd read an interview with Whedon years back when fans had asked about how stable Dawn after the events of season 5 and his reply had been that she hadn't any ties to the supernatural any longer and now was just a normal human being and nothing could reverse that now.

    So whatever happens to magic in the world wouldn't effect her.

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