View Poll Results: Who Did Cordelia Love? Spoilers for AtS.

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24. You may not vote on this poll
  • Xander

    16 66.67%
  • Angel

    22 91.67%
  • Wesley

    14 58.33%
  • Doyle

    14 58.33%
  • Gunn

    10 41.67%
  • Fred

    5 20.83%
  • Mr. Chase

    9 37.50%
  • Mrs. Chase

    9 37.50%
  • Harmony

    4 16.67%
  • Lorne

    4 16.67%
  • Connor

    17 70.83%
  • Groo

    6 25.00%
  • Any of her short-term Sunnydale boyfriends (Devon, Mitch, etc.)

    0 0%
  • Buffy

    1 4.17%
  • Willow

    0 0%
  • Giles

    0 0%
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Thread: Who Did Cordelia Love?

  1. #1
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    Default Who Did Cordelia Love?

    Because I'm loving this love polling (particularly so close to Valentine's Day), who do folks think Cordelia loved? There are spoilers for AtS in the poll.
    Last edited by Dipstick; 01-02-13 at 11:42 PM.

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    Hm, a hard one. I pretty much picked most of Angel Inc. except Fred because the series really didn't develop that relationship in the slightest. I honestly have no idea what Cordy came to think of Fred or if they became close. I know she was upset about her leaving in Fredless but other than that there's not much to go on.

    I think Cordy was lovingly affectionate of Lorne. I also loved the Cordy/Gunn relationship in early S1/S2 and she was pretty loving with the advice in Deal or Nothing so I'll say she had loving feelings for him as well.

    I was seriously side-eyeing the "Angel's feelings are the only ones I care about" in regards to Wesley, I at least thought she'd care enough to confront him about what happened or hate him on her own behalf. But they were close before that and You're Welcome works hard to make them appear like the oldest of friends again, so I'll say she loved him though it's hard to believe in S3-S4.

    Much like Angel, I think Cordy loved, loved, loved Doyle because he became this saint-like figure in their lives and, yup, was totally idealised, but still has a solid place in Cordy's heart.

    She loved Xander. Despite her saying so in Homecoming I thought it was incredibly obvious given what she gave up for him and how heartbroken she was by his betrayal. I always found it tragic that Cordy was obviously so much more into Xander than he was into her

    I hesitated but I ended up picking that Cordy loved her parents. There's really no reason to think she didn't and she does rather affectionately refer to her father as "daddy." I just assume that most people love their parents unless there's a solid reason to think otherwise.

    Angel and Connor are obvious choices.

    I think she grew to like Willow and she was really happy when Buffy was alive in Carpe Noctem but I don't think I'd call her feelings for either of them "love." I don't think she cared much about Giles one way or another.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 02-02-13 at 12:04 AM.
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    For me the only obvious choice was Angel.

    Connor wasn't an obvious choice for me at all. The vast majority of the time Connor was on the show was while Jasmine was possessing Cordelia, so it was never apparent to me how Cordelia really felt about him. When she returns in You're Welcome she does ask about Connor but I think it's more about Angel than it is Connor.

    I voted for Gunn & Wesley because of their friendships primary in Season 2 and the first half of Season 3.

    I went ahead and also chose Doyle even though Doyle died fairly early on so there wasn't a lot of time for their relationship to really develop.

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    When I look at this poll it makes me kinda sad, Cordelia is a rather tragic figure. The only person she seems to really care for before Ats (Xander), cheated on her and didn't really love her back. Her parents were no good before she was 18 and after that we only hear once more about them; a phonecall in season 1. And her friends in highschool are shallow and are only her friends because she is popular. And the one she is closest with gets bitten and becomes a vampire.

    Cordelia is only truly loved for the first time in Ats season 1 when she teams up with Angel and Doyle (later on Wesley). We see two random 'friends' in 'Expecting', some phonecalls with Willow, and she is always the one who calls and she has of course the relation with Groo (who she didn't love IMO) but besides that she only has the team. She never had a real relation with a guy she loves and who loves her back, she has no parents or siblings who care about her, no friends in another place, no random ex-lovers who are still close to her... just Angel, Wesley, Gunn, Fred and Lorne. She had of course baby Connor who was her little boy as well, but she lost him after only a few weeks. (Wesley's fault, which is why I'm okay with her not going to talk with Wes after she hears the news. Angel was perhaps in more pain, but she was also betrayed and also lost Connor.) Same with Doyle. So she has only a few people she loved, and even less who loved her back.

    She wasn't very lucky, sure she wasn't easy either. But she didn't deserve this.
    Last edited by Nina; 02-02-13 at 12:37 AM.

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    I only think Cordelia loved Xander, Angel and Connor- but those were easy choices. Like Angel, I thought her feelings for Doyle were more idealization because he died so early in their relationship after being such a present, inspiring figure rather than real love.

    Cordelia had a nice enough relationship with Wesley complete with cute bickering/pleasantries in S1-2. However, I don't think she loved for him the same reasons why I don't think Giles loved Dawn. Love is coming through for someone when the chips are down or when it looks like it will cost you something. She completely abandoned Wesley at his lowest point all for Angel and IMO, she was never completely interested in Wesley's pain whether happily and blithely taking a own vacation to escape Faith the day after Faith tortured Wesley or a lack of support and horror after Wesley landed in a wheelchair in S2 because he took a bullet for Gunn.

    I only read affection in Cordy's relationship with Gunn and affection mixed with irritation in her relationship with Fred.

    I don't think Cordy loved her parents. In Welcome to the Hellmouth, she described her mother being sick as:

    Cordelia: My mom doesn't even *get* out of bed anymore. And the doctor says it's Epstein-Barr. I'm like, pleeease! It's chronic hepatitis, or at least chronic fatigue syndrome. I mean, *nobody* cool has Epstein-Barr anymore.
    All of her comments about her "daddy" were what he should buy her. And then it looks like parents and daughter gave up on being a family entirely after the senior Chases lost their money. Say what you will about the Rosenbergs or the Harrises but the parents and Willow and Xander kept up a relationship for some time after the kids left the house.

    In a surprise, I read big emotion from Cordelia towards Kevin in Prophecy Girl. He was the first who she felt affectionate enough to allow him to inconvenience her because she liked him so much. She was horrified when he died. He was definitely her favorite high school suitor- but there wasn't enough screentime or actual time for it to be love.

    IMO, Willow cared way more about Cordelia than vice a versa. Same thing was true for Buffy in S1-3- but after high school, I think both Cordelia and Buffy primarily remembered the hostilities more than their moments of closeness.

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    Heh. Well at least she thinks her mother is cool! That's something, right?

    I have a hard time with the AtS gang because from mid-S3 it really gets divided into Angel/Cordy/Connor and Gunn/Fred/Wesley with Lorne sort of drifting between the two. Occasionally characters will crossover and interact, and of course Angel has a relationship with everyone as the protagonist, but there's a real divide there. A lot of people talk about how in the Scoobies there's obvious Buffy/Xander/Willow and then the others just circulate, which is true, but the writers spent a lot of time developing most of the character's relationships with each other. I know how Willow/Anya feel about each other, how Buffy/Tara feel about each other, how Anya/Giles feel about each other, how Dawn/Tara feel about each other etc Whereas, I'm not confident I know how Gunn or Fred feel about Cordy or how Cordy feels about them. I don’t think this could be more obvious than in You’re Welcome when Cordy has a quick hello with everyone but then spends the rest of the time interacting almost exclusively with Angel and a little bit with Wes, but the latter is always a tad jarring given how they haven’t been close for years. It's like the writers can't even pretend anymore that she's had any significance to their lives (or vice versa) for the past few years.

    I actually once read a fan meta that argued there was a bit of a class divide going on in Angel Investigations. With Angel "The Boss" and Cordy his love interest mostly just dealing with each other and then the workers (Wes, Gunn, Fred) having their own problems down below. I'm not sure I agree with that, and for what it's worth I don't recall the meta saying it was something the characters were conscious of, but I certainly agree there's this real split in that gang.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 02-02-13 at 12:57 AM.
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    I definitely went for Angel and Xander as the obvious selections. I went for Doyle, Connor and Wesley as well. But with Doyle, it is complicated -- I think Dipstick is right that it's closer to idealization, but I think it's closer to the real thing with Cordelia. For Cordelia, the closeness she and Doyle had developed along with the fact that she actually was left with a parting gift are enough to make me think that the feeling that she eventually has is love -- but it's, you know, difficult. I do think that getting the visions, and keeping them partly because they are a blessing from Doyle, actually leads to there being a lingering influence of Doyle on Cordelia's life which encourages her to think about him more carefully. I do think that you can learn to appreciate how much you care about someone after their death, but it's, again, a complicated emotion. That said it might not be fair to assign this to Cordelia and not to Angel.

    Cordelia's love for Connor is actually complicated, because, um, surely she only really had a chance to love the baby, and then he came back teenaged, and then she ascended. She came back with no memory, made out with him, and then was taken over by the higher being that had come back with her. Can that be described as love? I guess the maternal love-for-baby is enough to start.

    I did went with Cordelia loving Wesley. Certainly he is high on her list, and the only person she feels any need to spend special time with in You're Welcome of the gang who is there. (She asks about Connor, which is nice.) But I agree that her focus on Angel blocks out Wesley in s3 in a way that is tragic.

    Despite her one episode of being Gunn's protector or something, I don't detect big feelings there. She and Gunn seemed to become fairly friendly over the course of season two, but it didn't really carry over all that much. She had a mentor-like role for Fred early on, but again I don't think it was really love or developed into it. I think Cordy liked Lorne but it didn't go all that far. And again, You're Welcome didn't have her show much inclination to reconnect with them before going to the great beyond, beyond "hey Gunn you have hair now."

    Groo she was really attracted to, especially in Pylea. Not love.

    I didn't vote for any of the one episode ex-boyfriends because given how many of them died or got injured I feel like she'd be more, I don't know, traumatized. Darryl I am almost tempted to consider a real case.

    None of the Cordettes, sorry. Harmony is not someone she has much feeling for -- despite Harmony betraying them, I actually think Harmony might like Cordelia more than Cordelia likes her.

    My unpopular opinion about high school Harmony is that her trying to force Cordelia out of dating Xander, while definitely bitchiness, is also pretty understandable because it's pretty clear, IMHO, that Cordelia, pre-season two, would NEVER let Harmony get away with dating someone like Xander without totally eviscerating her. There was a big amount of power play in that move in BBB, but Harmony also really does look up to Cordelia I think, and I think was really hurt by Cordelia ditching their gang and calling Harmony a sheep. At least Harmony told Cordelia what it would take for the gang to take Cordelia back and still have Cordy presumptively as the leader! And the action in The Wish was definitely one of revenge for Cordy's ditching her. And while I sympathize with it being painful for Cordelia, I don't actually blame Harmony all that much for hurting Cordelia back. I mean, I am against revenge, but it's consistent with their relationship at that point. I blame her more for the amount of cruelty that the whole scene represents against Jonathan.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post
    Cordelia had a nice enough relationship with Wesley complete with cute bickering/pleasantries in S1-2. However, I don't think she loved for him the same reasons why I don't think Giles loved Dawn. Love is coming through for someone when the chips are down or when it looks like it will cost you something. She completely abandoned Wesley at his lowest point all for Angel and IMO, she was never completely interested in Wesley's pain whether happily and blithely taking a own vacation to escape Faith the day after Faith tortured Wesley or a lack of support and horror after Wesley landed in a wheelchair in S2 because he took a bullet for Gunn.
    Point about Faith. Disagree about Wesley taking a bullet -- she seemed mighty concerned at the end of The Thin Dead Line.

    Actually, for all I criticize Cordelia for the way she shuts Wesley out, it is notable that she shuts Angel out too. There are lots of reasons why the two cases are different, and the biggest one is that while she is protecting Wesley at Angel's expense in TTDL, she is also personally mad at Angel for his treatment of her which Angel did directly to her face. I guess that is the point, that Cordelia shows no sign of actually being mad at Wesley; even one scene of her going and yelling at Wesley, even while Wesley still couldn't talk, the way Fred did, would go a long way to showing that she cared about him. Hatred is not the opposite of love, indifference is, as they say. I still went that she loved Wes because I kind of...think that late s3 is funky Cordelia-wise anyway.

    In a surprise, I read big emotion from Cordelia towards Kevin in Prophecy Girl. He was the first who she felt affectionate enough to allow him to inconvenience her because she liked him so much. She was horrified when he died. He was definitely her favorite high school suitor- but there wasn't enough screentime or actual time for it to be love.
    Are we sure Darryl wasn't her favourite one? I mean, we know she is still talking about the pain of his death long after it happened. Yes, she isn't exactly happy to have Frankenstein-Darryl staring down at her, but I don't know if that's really lack of love.

    IMO, Willow cared way more about Cordelia than vice a versa. Same thing was true for Buffy in S1-3- but after high school, I think both Cordelia and Buffy primarily remembered the hostilities more than their moments of closeness.
    Agreed on both Willow and Buffy. Especially Buffy. Though Willow still speaks of Cordelia with hostility in season four (Buffy's behaviour in Living Conditions bordering on the Cordeliaesque, making fun of Angel having hired Cordelia).

    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    I actually once read a fan meta that argued there was a bit of a class divide going on in Angel Investigations. With Angel "The Boss" and Cordy his love interest mostly just dealing with each other and then the workers (Wes, Gunn, Fred) having their own problems down below. I'm not sure I agree with that, and for what it's worth I don't recall the meta saying it was something the characters were conscious of, but I certainly agree there's this real split in that gang.
    Ha, I do actually think there is an element of this in the show that really started at the end of Disharmony, IMHO, at which point the Angel-Cordy closeness was emphasized by the characters and the show at the expense of their relationships with the other main characters. The primary reason I'm not an Angel/Cordy fan is that their relationship basically removed either character's relationship with the supporting cast for a while, except when Fred or Lorne would show up in order to tell Angel their Cangel ship manifesto.



    ETA: Actually, You're Welcome is a pretty good guide for me. The four people that Cordelia shows any evidence of making *any* kind of priority are Angel, Connor (though absent), Wesley, and Doyle (though dead) -- she takes the time to watch the Doyle video, takes the time to talk to Wes about Lilah's death and to indicate how much she missed spending time with him, asks about Connor and takes the time to criticize Angel for his treatment of Connor, and of course makes her whole day about Angel. She considers Harmony an annoyance, makes fun of Spike, and seems glad to see Fred, Gunn and Lorne but makes no effort to connect with them or to show that she has thought about them in any way. You could argue that even here, only Angel (or only Angel & Connor or whatever) clear the bar, and her taking time out of her Last Day for Wesley and Doyle was a matter of affection and not love, but still, I do tend to weight how someone spends their Last Day On Earth knowing ahead of time that it's their last day highly, and Wesley and Doyle both get privileged positions within that, though obviously not as privileged as Angel gets.

    As Lorne points out, Cordelia gives Wesley props for doing mojo and none to the entire rest of the team, even though Lorne even bled from the neck. That is again putting Wesley on a much higher plane than any other people present besides Angel himself.

    She does hug the others (Harmony unwillingly) but that's as far as that goes.

    I do think she loved Xander, but no longer does by AtS season five -- which is not unreasonable at all. So it turns out my total list of people Cordelia loved is Xander (the most important relationship within BtVS) plus the four people I saw having something of a privileged emotional position in You're Welcome.
    Last edited by Local Maximum; 02-02-13 at 04:34 AM.

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    I forgot to explain why I thought she loved Groo. I don't think she ever fell in love with him but I definitely think she had a platonic love. She seemed to care about him a great deal which I thought went past just lust or attraction but it obviously couldn't compete with her attachment to Angel. I don't think it would compete with her feelings for Xander, either. However, I would definitely describe her as being "lovingly affectionate" with him so that's why he made my list.

    Max, I agree with you on Cordy/Harmony and The Wish. Obviously I feel terrible for Cordy but I can't exactly blame Harmony for not being nice to her. Cordy publicly yelled at her, insulted her, then dumped her as a friend, so is it any surprise that Harmony didn't welcome her back with open arms? I actually believe her in Disharmony and Conviction when she talks about how much she cared about Cordy so it must have hurt when Cordy abandoned her for her boyfriend instead. Not that Harmony is innocent or that I don't love Cordy calling her out for being a sheep, but they were pretty bad to each other overall. You're 100% right that had Harmony fallen for a "loser" like Xander that Cordy would have shunned her from the group just like Harmony does her in B,B&B. I guess neither is blameless and I certainly don't condone Harmony's treatment of Cordy (or people in general) but neither character can really claim the moral high ground.

    I have a lot of sympathy for Cordy in The Wish and Willow and Xander deserved to be raked over the coals for how much they hurt her. I don't get any enjoyment out of Cordy being rejected by Harmony and it hurts like hell when they continue to make catty remarks towards her or laugh at her as she lays in the rubbish. It's awful to see anybody bullied like that. But I do get mighty pissed at Cordy for how she starts blaming Buffy for something Xander did, especially after Buffy came out and offered to be there for her. I think the episode may be a little contrived so we can reach that "I wish Buffy Summers never came to Sunnydale" place, but it's not a good look for Cordy at all. Put the blame where it belongs.

    Though, fair point on how that scene mirrored when Cordy followed Buffy out into the alleyway in WSWB. Cordy did try and help Buffy in that episode and Buffy threw it back in her face, although "I don't like you very much" doesn't exactly have the same ring to it as Buffy offering Cordy friendship -- "I talked to my friends and it got a little better." She was trying to help in her own Cordy-way so points for effort.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 02-02-13 at 09:43 AM.
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    I always had the feeling that Groo was somebody she would've loved when she was younger; he worshipped her, he was good for her, he was strong and handsome, he was a hero even. And it wouldn't suprise me if Cordelia started something with him because she thought she would love/want him, to find out that she really didn't.

    Groo was one of the rare factors in the "Angel and Cordy must happen!!!!" campaign that worked IMO. Because he worked on three levels; he showed Cordelia's growth, Angel grew because he decided for himself that Groo (aka the perfect man) isn't really the guy he wants/needs to be and he was good for some laughs.

    Off-topic babble about relations in Ats and why those are not all that.
    Spoiler:

    A lot of the issues raised in this thread (lack of relations between the characters) are to blame on the chaos Ats was I think, there was simply no space and time to develop relations, especially in a season like season 4 where it has 4 or 5 episodes where you can breath but the rest is filled with lots of villains, two times an apocalypse and Connor going crazy.


    BtVS had 7 seasons, with the Scoobies always being there and the most supporting characters were around for 3 or more seasons. The Ats cast changed so much that they spend more time writing these characters into and out of the story than that there was time to actually develop their relations with several castmembers.

    Season 1a: Angel, Cordelia, Doyle
    Season 1b: Angel, Cordelia, Wesley (Doyle out)
    Season 2a: Angel, Cordelia, Wesley & Gunn starts to show up more often.
    Season 2b: Cordelia, Wesley, Gunn & Angel is away from the group. Also Lorne shows up in some episodes.
    Season 2c: Angel, Cordelia, Wesley, Gunn & more Lorne, also Fred in the last episodes.
    Season 3a: Angel, Cordelia, Wesley, Gunn, Lorne, Fred
    Season 3b: Angel, Cordelia, Wesley, Gunn, Lorne, Fred & baby!Connor
    Season 3c: Angel, Cordelia, Gunn, Lorne, Fred, Groo, teen!Connor & Wesley is away from the team. (More characters!)
    Season 4: Angel, Wesley, Gunn, Lorne, Fred, Connor & amnesia Cordy (later on Jasmine). (Cordy no longer as herself in the cast)
    Season 5a: Angel, Wesley, Gunn, Lorne, Fred and Spike. (Connor out, Cordelia really no longer part of the cast.)
    Season 5b: Angel, Wesley, Gunn, Lorne, Spike, Illyria and Harmony. (Fred out, Connor back for 2 episodes)

    And in this list I left out important characters who were not really part of the group; Kate, Darla, Lilah and Lindsey. But also these characters had episodes where they were introduced and were written out in other episodes. And returning characters also had to get a 'welcome back' episode, think of Connor and 'Origin'.

    A quick count; 20 episodes (almost a whole season) were used (for a big part) to introduce or say goodbye to characters. So a 5th of their time goes to castchanges. It's simply too much IMO.
    Last edited by Nina; 02-02-13 at 10:52 AM.

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    When Groo isn't making me cringe he's boring me to tears, so I'm hardly a fan of the character, but I do love that they use him to show how bloody dull Angel would be if he was just this perfect noble hero in every way. Basically, he works to show why Angel's character is so much interesting when you acknowledge his imperfections and his dark side because that Angel is fascinating and, frankly, who'd want Groo 2.0?

    But I'm also biased because I just don't warm to characters like Groo. It doesn't help that he's a remnant of the Pylean arc, which I've never liked because it reminded me of some reject Xena episode. The actor also grates on me and I don't find his personality as endearing as I think they wanted me to. Eh, he's probably one of the most forgettable characters in the Buffyverse. The only use I have for him is to demonstrate why I love my Angel warts and all.

    In regards to AtS and the cast changes;

    Spoiler:
    I agree with you Nina that it changes a lot. I definitely prefer that BtVS would stick with the same characters for a fairly significant amount of time and do cherish that we got to keep Buffy, Xander, Willow and Giles (not counting the comics) for the whole show. It provides some nice consistency and I personally don't love it when a show is completely different when it ends from how it started. Although, I do agree with fans who say AtS was more realistic in that area because it makes sense people would die a lot and that they liked that no character was really safe. It also works rather well for Angel's character that he lost everyone around him -- "You're gutter trash and that's how you should have stayed. Drinking and whoring your way through an unforgettable life. But the fates stepped in and made you a vampire, with a soul no less. A Champion. A hero of the people. And yet, you still manage to fail everyone around you. Doyle, Cordelia, Fred... they're all gone."

    It depends a lot on the series but I admit I like the comfort of having the same characters throughout the entire series. But lets face it; AtS was plagued by a lot more behind the scenes problems than BtVS ever was and it had a detrimental effect on the story. Cast members were pulled out, fights between producers and the cast, fights between cast/producers and WB executives, cast members suddenly became unavailable, pretty much all the writers being fired after S1, David Greenwalt and then Tim Minear jumping ship etc. There was never that consistency behind the scenes that BtVS had and as a result there wasn't a consistency in the story as well. I don't think the cast would have changed anywhere near as much if things had been more smooth sailing. They did the best they could in the end.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 02-02-13 at 11:18 AM.
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    Just as a general point, does anyone think that Cordy sometimes seems out of touch with her own feelings and feelings of others. She seemed to question whether she loved Xander, but then after that she went back to her usual type.

    She thought Doyle wouldn't be someone she would go for, but she ends up falling for him and it happens again with Groo. Even worse with Groo, she dresses him up to look like Angel as well!!!!

    She was pretty slow on the uptake that Angel could be the guy for her and literally had to told. I know people said the same thing about Angel, but I personally took it that Angel was more aware of his own feelings but was in denial because he felt he couldn't really have a relationship.

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    Yes, I noticed that as well. Perhaps it's because she comes from a dysfunctional family? It looked like her mother married her father for the money and Cordelia plays with the same thought several times. She approaches usually relations with her head instead of her heart and figures out later on that it's not the guy she wants. Combine that with her having bad experiences with following her heart (both Xander cheating on her and Doyle's death did hurt her a lot) and it looks like Cordelia isn't very sure about what she truly wants. The things her mother had (playing it safe, pick the money and comfort) or open herself for real love once again, despite the pain it caused her in the past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Maximum View Post
    Point about Faith. Disagree about Wesley taking a bullet -- she seemed mighty concerned at the end of The Thin Dead Line.
    Hmm, I guess my deal is that I mainly think Cordy's anger at Angel in TTDL is about her own issues with Angel. I just don't sense a lot of Wesley-centric feeling from her. In Epiphany, it depresses me that Wesley picked up that Cordelia has become a very solitary girl while Cordelia's can't sense that something's off about Wesley's mood because he's just broken up with Virginia. Wesley's very particular anger at Angel for abandoning Cordelia who gets painful visions to guide *Angel* has far more specificity and concern for Cordelia, herself, and what's actually aggrieving Cordelia than Cordelia's pro forma, "Go away, Angel. We don't need you" in TTDL.

    Cordelia's not as wrapped up in herself in Wesley's second incident of being horribly injured over multiple eps as she was in his first and third, but it still doesn't rise to the level of "love".

    even one scene of her going and yelling at Wesley, even while Wesley still couldn't talk, the way Fred did, would go a long way to showing that she cared about him. Hatred is not the opposite of love, indifference is, as they say. I still went that she loved Wes because I kind of...think that late s3 is funky Cordelia-wise anyway.
    I know! Based on their previous long-term friendship and Cordelia's love for Connor, Cordelia should have gotten the, "Go to Wesley and yell at him" scene that Fred got. IMO, my opinion of Cordelia would have brought up a lot if she went and yelled at him.

    Are we sure Darryl wasn't her favourite one? I mean, we know she is still talking about the pain of his death long after it happened. Yes, she isn't exactly happy to have Frankenstein-Darryl staring down at her, but I don't know if that's really lack of love.
    There's something off about Charisma's acting. When she delivers this line:

    Cordelia: (coming in) Hi. Sorry to interrupt your little undead
    playgroup, but I need to ask Willow if she'll help me with my science
    fair project.
    Willow: It's a fruit.
    Cordelia: I would've asked Chris to help me, but then that would've
    brought back too many memories of Daryl.
    It sounds like Charisma is doing her comedic crying. And then the writing doesn't help her when it continues to sound like she's just comedically upset but not really sad.

    Buffy: How was her neck?
    Willow: Fine, except for being broken.
    Cordelia: Hello! Can we deal with my pain, please?
    Giles: There, there.
    When Buffy and Willow later talked in the graveyard about how Cordelia was upset about Darryl's death and it may prove that Cordy has a heart, it shocks me because the Cordy's "pain" scene was so played for laughs and seemed like such insincere pain.

    I can't tell how upset Cordelia was over Darryl's death. Still, though, I think I'd rank it below Kevin because I get the impression that Darryl was a big stud and all the girls were crazy for him. IMO, Cordelia found him particularly desirable because she bid for his superstar attention but he ignored her every time.

    Daryl: You were always good to me. Always noticed me. But I ignored
    you. I'm sorry. I'm glad I have a second chance to tell you that.
    Cordelia: D-Daryl?
    Daryl: I was thoughtless. I see that now. But I've changed. I've
    learned to appreciate how much it meant that you wanted to be with me.
    It sounds to me like Cordelia wanted to be with Daryl, Unattainable Most Popular Guy in School, but never got to know the real Daryl because he always ignored her.

    Agreed on both Willow and Buffy. Especially Buffy. Though Willow still speaks of Cordelia with hostility in season four (Buffy's behaviour in Living Conditions bordering on the Cordeliaesque, making fun of Angel having hired Cordelia).
    True. IMO, Willow always remembered what a mean pain in the ass Cordelia can be. However, the fact that they grew up together mattered a lot to Willow, as late as Orpheus. I don't know if Willow thinks that Cordelia is *smart* but she does think that Cordelia is *shrewd* and *streets-smart*. Willow thinks, at least until S5, that Angel and his team are doing big good in LA. So Willow helps Cordelia with her encrypted file program in Blind Date presumably because Willow believes that Cordelia's crime-fighting adventures are worthwhile, even though Willow is on a big deadline with the Initiative discs during that time and getting a certain amount of crap from Spike and Buffy about being too slow.

    Ha, I do actually think there is an element of this in the show that really started at the end of Disharmony, IMHO, at which point the Angel-Cordy closeness was emphasized by the characters and the show at the expense of their relationships with the other main characters. The primary reason I'm not an Angel/Cordy fan is that their relationship basically removed either character's relationship with the supporting cast for a while, except when Fred or Lorne would show up in order to tell Angel their Cangel ship manifesto.
    Big Word.

    I also like your You're Welcome metric. I don't really want to use it for my own reasons re: Doyle and Wesley. However, your You're Welcome metric really did make me re-evaluate who Cordelia may consider the most *important* even if not who Cordelia *loved*.

    I actually once read a fan meta that argued there was a bit of a class divide going on in Angel Investigations. With Angel "The Boss" and Cordy his love interest mostly just dealing with each other and then the workers (Wes, Gunn, Fred) having their own problems down below. I'm not sure I agree with that, and for what it's worth I don't recall the meta saying it was something the characters were conscious of, but I certainly agree there's this real split in that gang.
    I really agree with that fan meta. I think of it as Upstairs/Downstairs in my head. Dowtown Abbey- but with monsters!
    Last edited by Dipstick; 02-02-13 at 04:26 PM.

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    Am I alone in actually really enjoying Groo in late s3? "Angel, your coat is singing!" "And perhaps as we search, we could leave these small rectangles behind us -- as did that creature who came by yesterday inquiring after Gunn."

    And when Groo starts going snarky later on I just lose it. "Yes. We must always consider Angel. Angel is our leader. We must obey his wishes." "It is a happy time."

    I mean, I wouldn't want to have Groo around all the time and I definitely side-eye his presence in the season as a pure time-killing obstacle to the Cordy/Angel finale, but I think he brings some humour to the season.

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    Hmm, I only watched AtS once. I thought Groo was funny at times, but I was weary of him as a Plot Device for Cangel.

    Still, AtS S3 did need all of the funny it could get and Groo provided some.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    When Groo isn't making me cringe he's boring me to tears, so I'm hardly a fan of the character, but I do love that they use him to show how bloody dull Angel would be if he was just this perfect noble hero in every way. Basically, he works to show why Angel's character is so much interesting when you acknowledge his imperfections and his dark side because that Angel is fascinating and, frankly, who'd want Groo 2.0?
    The thing is for a while I think Angel does want to be like Groo. Angel is insecure and he really doesn't like to have competition. Angel really wants to be special and feel like he's needed. When Groo shows up and starts saving lives and is able to go out in the daylight Angel starts to feel like Groo could replace him and do everything he can plus some stuff (like being in the sun) that he's unable to do. Angel also has the same problem with Spike (and it's really evident in his hallucination in Soul Purpose).

    I didn't really have any real problems with Groo. Unlike Lorne he was not yet familiar with this world and he had a lot to learn so he did get some good comedic lines. I've always sort of been ambivalent about his relationship with Cordelia. I don't think Cordelia and Groo really took the time to get to know each other and when Groo realized she had feelings for Angel he just left and was never seen or heard form again. It might have been a good idea to keep in touch and maybe Groo could have helped out towards the end of Season 5.

    I think that Groo sort of idolized Cordelia from the beginning and she was immediately attracted to him the first time she saw him but the relationship wasn't given time to develop. In some ways it was actually a lot like Angel/Buffy - both Angel & Groo feel in love with girls they barely knew and put them up on pedestals (I also think Wesley does that a bit with Fred).

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    I’m not going to discuss Groo or Buffy/Angel.



    * My choices are self-evident.


    * Xander: Cordelia would have stayed with fish Xander and taken care of him. Cordelia put up with Xander constantly talking about Buffy and Willow. Cordelia probably didn’t love Xander after he cheated on her with Willow, but she certainly loved him before she caught him doing that.


    * Harmony: Cordelia may not have still loved her after Harmony betrayed Angel and Co. to that vampire pyramid scheme cult, but she didn’t even dust her. Other than that, there’s about no evidence that Cordelia didn’t love her.

    - Cordelia was more of a sheep than Harmony and Co. Cordelia was what THEY wanted her to be (other than being with Xander). Cordelia pretended to be stupid. And for the most part, relatively soon after being with Xander, she simply became one of the Slayerettes. Cordelia was even relatively a sheep in AtS (other than getting Angel to make Angel Investigations a for-profit business).


    * Angel: I consider this could be because of Jasmine.


    * There isn’t much evidence that Cordelia actually loves Wesley, Gunn, Lorne, or Fred.


    * I’m not sure she actually loved Doyle. Doyle had been mooning over her for months or whatever and he saved her life or whatever after that commodities speculator left her. They never even got to have a relationship and she had fallen for him when she thought he was human.


    * Cordelia obviously loved her parents before finding out her father wasn’t paying his taxes and all the money was taken away.


    * Connor could have certainly been all because of Jasmine.


    * Of the Scoobies, Buffy only loved Xander.


    * Neither Willow nor Buffy cared much about Cordelia. If anything, Cordelia seemed to care more about Buffy than Buffy cared about her.


    * I don’t think there was any real ‘class divide’ in AtS with Angel and Cordy and then ‘the rest’. Remember that when Angel wasn’t in charge, WESLEY was put in charge.

    However, in terms of importance, remember that AtS only had an ‘O2’ whereas BtVS had an ‘O4’ and Buffy’s main three boyfriends were always very important so it was more like there was an ‘O5’ thing going on.


    * “You’re Welcome” (A 5.12), doesn’t much actually indicate that Cordelia loves Wesley. JasmineCordelia killed Lilah Morgan, whom Cordy knows Wesley loved (or at least had strong feelings for). So, her mentioning that is simply common decency.


    * Cordelia in “The Wish” (3.09) obviously wasn’t serious about not wanting Buffy to have come to Sunnydale.




    Nina

    And her friends in highschool are shallow and are only her friends because she is popular.
    Um, Cordelia herself was shallow and she was only popular because she was able to have those friends.

    In AtS s1, she was purposefully not in contact with her high school friends because she was too embarrassed about her destitute status.

    ________________________________________________

    It looked like her mother married her father for the money
    According to what? For all we know, the mother came from a wealthy family. For all we know, her mother used to have a job before getting Epstein Bar.

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