View Poll Results: Who In the Scoobies did Giles Love?

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  • Buffy

    27 96.43%
  • Willow

    21 75.00%
  • Xander

    11 39.29%
  • Spike

    0 0%
  • Angel

    0 0%
  • Dawn

    9 32.14%
  • Cordelia

    0 0%
  • Anya

    10 35.71%
  • Oz

    0 0%
  • Riley

    0 0%
  • Jenny Calender

    26 92.86%
  • Tara

    5 17.86%
  • Faith

    12 42.86%
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Thread: Who In the Scoobies Did Giles Love?

  1. #21
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    Buffy, Willow, Xander (in a "he's my constantly disappointing son" sort of way), and of course Jenny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    That still all scans to great admiration and respect to me. I certainly have had mentors/teachers I have admired to that level and would have been deeply upset if they had been brutally murdered but I didn't love them. As always with this sort of question it is so deeply subjective it is difficult. I'm not a very lovey dovey type though so perhaps I'm just harsher about this sort of thing.
    I hear that. I'm not a lovey dovey type either and this is subjective. Still, I think that Willow had affection for Anya but Willow would never weep that way for Anya's death and Willow may very well have had affection for Jesse but Willow never weeped that way for his death.

    Also, Jenny was particularly special for a mentor. She had her oars in both of the specific fields that Willow loved- technology and witchcraft. This isn't just an History teacher that a student loved. Jenny was a mentor for the stuff that Willow does that comprises her essential identity and means life or death for Willow. IMO, Jenny was also the first (and probably the only adult) who really wanted to teach and include Willow. Jenny was always super-friendly to Willow (and really all of the teens). IMO, Jenny was trying to help Willow by instilling such a painfully shy girl with responsibilities to teach the entire class.

    It's subjective but I really do sense that Willow loved Jenny and Jenny cared about Willow. And I'm not an easy sell for "love".

    I'll put in other polls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    That still all scans to great admiration and respect to me. I certainly have had mentors/teachers I have admired to that level and would have been deeply upset if they had been brutally murdered but I didn't love them. As always with this sort of question it is so deeply subjective it is difficult. I'm not a very lovey dovey type though so perhaps I'm just harsher about this sort of thing.
    On that note, Buffy cried when her biology teacher (I can't remember his name) who was nice and saw potential in her was murdered in Teacher's Pet. I think this is the first time in the show we see her cry.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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  6. #24
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    Yeah, I think some things just hit you sometimes for the combination of factors. I see where people are coming from and I agree Dipstick that Jenny was significant and very special to Willow, but I just personally don't think it equals love. Finding someone you truly admire and respect I feel is as rare, if not more in some ways, as someone that you love, it is a very strong emotional driver, just of a different nature.

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    Ok, I've picked a lot of characters but obviously I think Giles loved people to different degrees. To try and break it down I'm going to group characters together who I think Giles roughly loves the same and elaborate on those that seem controversial.

    The Most:

    Buffy

    A Lot:

    Willow

    Xander -- I'm really surprised this is such a hard sell for people. I know he often seemed aggravated by Xander, at least in the early years, but I never doubted for a second that he cared a great deal for him. I thought it was evident he loved Xander when he sat down with him at the engagement party and had a father/son talk about Xander's future. I also thought their love for one another was clear to see when they shared their awkward goodbye at the airport.

    Jenny -- I nearly put Jenny up with Buffy but then I realised that Giles turned on Jenny partially for Buffy ("she said get out") so I can't put them in the same league.

    Faith -- I don't think he loved her until S8 but I totally believe they grew incredibly close over that year and that he must have loved her a great deal to leave her everything.

    Quite strong:

    Dawn -- I believe him completely when he says that he loves Dawn in The Gift. Buffy believes him too. And she is one of the few people he singles out at his airport farewell for a special message -- "I'm just a phone call away ... if you need anything. (holds Dawn's face in his hands) You must promise me."

    Has loving feelings for;

    Anya
    Tara -- Based just on that hug alone, again, at the airport. Way too affectionate and caring (the way he holds her head) for someone who doesn't have any love for the girl. They also did occasionally spend time together just the two of them in S5, but unfortunately what they did is mostly off screen.
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  9. #26
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    I'll get to the thread posts later.


    * Buffy was his 'daughter' but it got to the point that he seemed to resent that she no longer needed him as a 'father'. In BtVS S7, she didn't seem to need him outside of his giving the Potentials to her. Then in BtVS S8
    Spoiler:
    he seems to resent that she has all these Slayers and power and he's even less useful to her.



    * His attachment to Faith seems to be because, unlike Buffy, Faith did need someone. And he probably
    Spoiler:
    'willed' his estate to Faith when Buffy had all those properties.



    * He's always been fond of Willow. Even in BtVS S6, his solution for her was to give her even more power. And in BtVS S7 and BtVS S8, he never complained about Willow's power.


    * That he loved Jenny is self-evident.


    * I don't think he loved anyone else. Love is sacrifice. Giles wanted Buffy to kill Dawn. With Xander, we have such things as "Becoming Part II" (2.22) with Giles saying that Drusilla shows things he wants and Xander smartly replying, "Then why would they show you me." And it's interesting that in BtVS S4 that while Giles hired Xander to do work under his house, it's actually Spike who Giles actually watched TV with and such. In "Restless" (4.22), Xander sees Giles being 'closer' to Spike than Giles is to him. In "Tabula Rasa" (6.08), Spike is Giles' son and Giles feels more of a connection to Anya than he does to Xander.

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    Xander -- I'm really surprised this is such a hard sell for people. I know he often seemed aggravated by Xander, at least in the early years, but I never doubted for a second that he cared a great deal for him. I thought it was evident he loved Xander when he sat down with him at the engagement party and had a father/son talk about Xander's future. I also thought their love for one another was clear to see when they shared their awkward goodbye at the airport.
    Actually, a lot of my biggest examples of Giles mistreating Xander occurred in the later seasons.

    End of Days
    XANDER
    You know what's even worse? All the
    stupid "It's all fun and games until
    someone loses an eye" jokes.
    "I guess the fun and games are over,
    eh Xander?"

    DAWN
    Giles was just having fun with you.
    Weight of the World
    XANDER: There. How you doing?
    GILES: It only hurts while I answer pointless questions. Where's Buffy?
    I Was Made to Love You
    GILES: Oh, yes, dozens. There's an enormous amount of research we should do before - no, I'm lying. I haven't got squat, I just like to see Xander squirm.
    Shadow
    XANDER: Rude-ish. Rude-esque. Whatever you want to call it. When a person makes a "destroy all vampires" date, it's simple courtesy to wait for your co-destroyers. Am I right, Giles?
    GILES: I'm almost certain you're not, but to be fair, I wasn't listening.
    The Initiative
    Xander: Every man faces this moment. Here. Now. Watching. Waiting. For an unseen enemy that has no face. Nerve endings screaming in silence. Never knowing which thought might be your last.
    Giles : Oh, shut up.
    Mind you, I didn't pick scenes where Giles and Xander were joshing with each other or even fighting with each other and Giles just had a particularly tart barb. Just scenes where Giles was a prick to Xander for no reason at all.

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  12. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post
    Actually, a lot of my biggest examples of Giles mistreating Xander occurred in the later seasons.
    Aw, I thought that IWMTLY was genuinely affectionate. I agree on the others though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Maximum View Post
    Aw, I thought that IWMTLY was genuinely affectionate. I agree on the others though.
    I dunno. I totally get how you see that. I just thought that Giles was making Xander a figure of ridicule and fun in front of the group, but I guess I'm evaluating it in light of my other issues with Giles's treatment of Xander. I'd be more inclined to blow it off if say, Anya made such a joke.

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    I actually consider End of Days, Shadow, and I was Made to Love You to all be affectionate. Especially IWMTLY. When it comes to Xander's eye, there's simply no way that Giles would intend to hurt someone's feelings over being injured like that, even if he didn't love them. I thought it was obvious Giles was just trying to joke around with Xander (which Dawn says) and even Xander's not upset about what he said so much as it not being up to his "standards" as a good joke.

    The Initiative is just pure annoyance, I agree with you there, but I can't exactly blame Giles in that scene even if it was fun to watch And I always took his response in Weight of the World to be a classic example of 'stiff-upper lip Giles' but I couldn't blame someone for thinking it was rude.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 01-02-13 at 01:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    When it comes to Xander's eye, there's simply no way that Giles would intend to hurt someone's feelings over being injured like that, even if he didn't love them.
    Giles really has gallows humor (euphemism for assholic humor). Rewatching Helpless, I was gape-mouthed that Giles made a "throwing like a girl" joke to de-powering Buffy when he *knows* that she's losing her abilities because he's poisoning her to throw her depowered self into a cell with an insane vampire where she may very well die.

    That situation is not too different than Giles teasing Xander for losing his eye. The only difference is that Giles's attitude toward Buffy is an anomaly of jerkiness while his attitude toward Xander is a pattern.

    I thought it was obvious Giles was just trying to joke around with Xander (which Dawn says) and even Xander's not upset about what he said so much as it not being up to his "standards" as a good joke.
    Dawn tries to excuse Giles by saying that he was just having "fun with Xander". I say bullshit. There is nothing about Xander's mutilation that should be "fun" for Giles.

    I don't get how the Shadow example was affectionate. If I was discussing something urgent and asked a colleague if I'm right and the colleague said that he's sure that I'm wrong but then, he wasn't listening, I'd greet that "affection" with my middle finger and a stomp off.

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  19. #32
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    I think the thing with Xander's eye is that in Giles' mind, he may very well have been trying to do the gallows humour thing. And indeed, I do think that he might even, in his own way, be trying to make Xander feel at ease with his new disability. I do think that making fun of it for pure entertainment is actually worse than the others by a fair margin.

    That said, I think it's pretty clear that if you are going to make jokes about someone's recent traumatic injury to them, you should make sure that it's actually going to help them. Willow couldn't even get the stomach to help participate in Xander's comic bits in Empty Places, but it would be okay if she did since Xander was setting the terms -- just as I don't fault Dawn for laughing about the "cyclops" bit in that End of Days scene, because she is letting Xander set the tone for how to deal with his injury.

    It's particularly funny in the case of Shadow, because the very thing Xander is discussing is, ahem, Riley's suicidally stupid behaviour and spinning out of control, which is about to turn around and bite Buffy herself in the ass -- if Riley got himself killed while her mother was sick, that would completely devastate her; and Riley's increasingly bad behaviour, even aside from leading to Riley hurting Buffy directly by his own douchery, eventually leads somewhat indirectly to the gang of vamp hos ganging up on Buffy to kill her in Into the Woods. It's not exactly a straight line between targeting a vamp nest in dangerous behaviour and what Riley does later, but Xander is bringing up an actual real problem with a member of their gang and that Giles is so dismissive of that is another

    And for the record, Giles *is* the best person Xander should have been able to talk to about Riley's behaviour, after Riley himself, at least while Joyce was in the hospital. Keeping Riley's spinning out of control from Buffy is something I'd normally be against, and I do think Xander's self-righteousness in ITW about Buffy not noticing Riley spiralling is a little unfair since Xander actually didn't go talk to her about it. And yet, it makes sense to try to deal with some of the things that might have easier solutions without Buffy while she deals with the much bigger emotional stuff involving Joyce and the really high-priority Scooby things like Glory. Of course, Giles' dismissiveness makes it especially difficult for Xander, already at sea about how to deal with Riley, no opening to talk to him about it.

    But anyway, regardless of whether Giles was the person to talk to, Riley's behaviour is tending toward the reckless and even suicidal, and as Watcher who has also has a reckless youth Giles *should* be the guy who, given the information about what Riley's doing (if he were paying attention), should be most attuned to realize the dangerous and implications of it. But whatever Xander can't possibly have any useful information.

    ETA: Checking over the transcript, Xander et al. DO continue filling in Giles after Giles' joke, which I had forgotten about. So while I'm not sure I completely backtrack on what I've written above, I do feel like I should modify my position, which I will do below.

    I do think it's pretty possible that, within his own mind, Giles is totally affectionate w.r.t. Xander and how could anyone misinterpret his tone, but that's because he never bothers to check whether he is actually genuinely hurtful to Xander.

    ---

    I do think that The Pack is one of the rare instances in which Giles seems especially affectionate toward Xander in a way that goes above and beyond his relationships with the other Scoobies -- the conspiratorial tone at the end when he offers to keep Xander's secret until death feels like a legitimate moment of bonding, and one in which Giles seems to align himself a little more with Giles than with Buffy's best interests (because maybe Buffy would like to know that Xander remembers the sexual assault). OTOH, of course, Giles could still be thinking of Buffy, and just deciding that it's better for her mental health/well-being if she can hang onto the fiction about Xander not remembering it. It's not far enough along in the series that I think he's thinking one way or another about how it affects Willow.

    I'm trying to think of other examples of Giles seeking out Xander for some reason or another. I think it's clear that his going to Xander in A New Man is because Xander is the person whose opinion he cares about the least of Buffy, Willow or Xander and someone he anticipates might be able to keep what happened secret from Buffy -- but he does still trust him, in principle, to be able to help him. So that is a factor.
    Last edited by Local Maximum; 01-02-13 at 04:59 AM.

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  21. #33
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    I feel like I'm constantly having to defend Giles in our conversations of late

    I didn't take his line in Helpless as a "joke."

    Giles wasn't the only one to have fun with Xander about his eye. Buffy did too when she joked that every time he picks up a sword she's worried he'll break one of their good lamps. Dawn burst into a fit of giggles at the Cyclops reference. Xander *wanted* Willow to joke about his injury in Empty Places because it beats weeping over it. Xander's whole way of coping is to joke about the things that cause him pain so it's fitting he was upset with Giles not because he joked, but because he considered it an obvious joke. It's about standards, after all.

    I think all of the characters, including Giles, were doing it for his benefit. Not because Giles is an ******* who cares so little about Xander he'd deliberately set out to hurt his feelings or not care he was injured.

    As for Shadow, I have a pretty hardened sense of humour and my way of communicating with friends is often to poke fun or insult each other. Giles' line didn't bother me in the least as I thought it was obvious he was just teasing and if said to me I wouldn't take offence at all. I'd probably just fire one back. I'd also point out this is very much a guy thing and not as typical with girls or between men and girls, so it feels normal to me that Giles' humour is different with Xander. I actually see his ribbing of Xander as Giles somewhat adopting how Xander use to poke fun at him in the earlier seasons, usually with mocking and teasing.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 01-02-13 at 04:53 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    I feel like I'm constantly having to defend Giles in our conversations of late

    I didn't take his line in Helpless as a "joke."

    Giles wasn't the only one to have fun with Xander about his eye. Buffy did too when she joked that every time he picks up a sword she's worried he'll break one of their good lamps. Dawn burst into a fit of giggles at the Cyclops reference. Xander *wanted* Willow to joke about his injury in Empty Places because it beats weeping over it. Xander's whole way of coping is to joke about the things that cause him pain so it's fitting he was upset with Giles not because he joked, but because he considered it an obvious joke. It's about standards, after all.
    Ha, I answered this above (I think you're right about Helpless) already . I think that Xander sets the tone for the humour with Willow and with Dawn.

    Buffy is trickier, but I think that the tone has to be understood in context. Xander asked seriously if Buffy was putting him out to pasture because of his injury. Buffy said that no, it was because she cares about him so much she trusts him with her human side. (Awww.) And then because things got so dramatic and heavy she pulls out a joke at the end, which also does reinforce that, yes, she actually is legitimately, and not unfairly, concerned about his fighting ability. It has a whole context.

    I do think it's possible that Giles' "fun and games" joke followed from some similar backdrop of both serious emotion that needs to be lightened, and a regrettable but serious question about Xander's proficiency, but I can't imagine it.

    It is possible though that Giles' joke followed Xander trying to set the bar with humour and this I can definitely imagine.

    As for Shadow, I have a pretty hardened sense of humour and my way of communicating with friends is often to poke fun or insult each other. Giles' line didn't bother me in the least as I thought it was obvious he was just teasing and if said to me I wouldn't take offence at all. I'd probably just fire one back.
    I think that's the way Giles thinks it comes across. But he does have the effect of shutting Xander down from actually talking to Giles about Riley, so it turns out that it's a misjudgment on Giles' part at best.

    Checking the transcript though, Xander does actually continue talking about it, so I think I might have to retract some of my stronger statements in my previous post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Maximum View Post
    Willow couldn't even get the stomach to help participate in Xander's comic bits in Empty Places, but it would be okay if she did since Xander was setting the terms
    I've actually read comments online *bashing* Willow for not caring enough about Xander to better cover her sadness but instead crying which made Xander feel worse.

    -- just as I don't fault Dawn for laughing about the "cyclops" bit in that End of Days scene, because she is letting Xander set the tone for how to deal with his injury.
    I don't have the DVDs but looking at the transcripts, the direction is:

    DAWN
    Giles was just having fun with you.

    XANDER
    That's not the point! It's an
    obvious joke. It'd be like if
    someone called me a cyclops.

    DAWN
    (laughing)
    Oh right! I didn't even --
    (off his look)
    That's not funny at all.
    It sounds NB was directed to look hurt or sharply at Dawn when she started laughing, prompting her to stop laughing and say that it's not funny. However, then Xander does make more jokes about his one-eye.

    I wish I had the DVDs to confirm. But based on the shooting script, it sounds like Xander is trying to put on a brave face with the jokes but he's actually dying inside and incredibly hurt when Giles and Dawn laugh at him.
    And for the record, Giles *is* the best person Xander should have been able to talk to about Riley's behaviour, after Riley himself, at least while Joyce was in the hospital. Keeping Riley's spinning out of control from Buffy is something I'd normally be against, and I do think Xander's self-righteousness in ITW about Buffy not noticing Riley spiralling is a little unfair since Xander actually didn't go talk to her about it. And yet, it makes sense to try to deal with some of the things that might have easier solutions without Buffy while she deals with the much bigger emotional stuff involving Joyce and the really high-priority Scooby things like Glory. Of course, Giles' dismissiveness makes it especially difficult for Xander, already at sea about how to deal with Riley, no opening to talk to him about it.
    Completely agree with all of this. Yet to put a fine point on it if I were Giles at the start of Shadow, I would have agreed with Willow and Anya that Riley just did them a favor by destroying the nest and it's silly to bother with Emily Post etiquette of whether Riley informed his fellow-destroyers. However, it would have been much more professional and streets-smart for Giles to make Xander feel like Giles is paying attention to Riley and to what Xander has to say. So when Riley really *did* start seeming erratic, irresponsible and erratic in Listening to Fear, the lines of communication would have been open to try to do something about it.

    I do think it's pretty possible that, within his own mind, Giles is totally affectionate w.r.t. Xander and how could anyone misinterpret his tone, but that's because he never bothers to check whether he is actually genuinely hurtful to Xander.
    Yup. I don't think Giles thinks he's being *affectionate*. However, I do think that Giles never thought that he was being an ******* or sought to tear down Xander. I want to be very clear on that point. Giles really isn't *trying* to be mean.

    Giles thinks that he's being a bad ass and a stiffer-upper lip guy when he made his "pointless" comment in Weight of the World. Giles thought he was being a great wit when making fun of Xander's mutilation, preemptively saying that anything Xander says is wrong or noting that Xander can be counted on to boil everything down to the simplest form. Giles thinks that he's ensuring that the space around him is Annoying-Free Zone when Giles shuts Xander's up in The Initiative or wearily asks Xander to go class instead making British drama queen jokes in Surprise. Giles think he's firmly shutting down insolence and insubordination when he shuts Xander down in Beauty and the Beats, What's My Line, etc.

    However, it's a pretty consistent pattern where Giles supports his self-image of a bad-ass/wit/disciplinarian largely on Xander's back. And never takes the time to evaluate how all of this is making Xander feel because Giles doesn't particularly care about how Xander feels. Giles could be harsh with Buffy- but I usually got the impression that Giles was selecting how he dealt with her very carefully because he loved her and cared about her feelings. I'm not convinced that Giles loved Willow but I can think of a number of occasions where he selected his words carefully to not hurt her feelings and to reassure her. None of that happens with Xander. It demonstrates a lack of caring for Xander that Xander is only a vehicle for Giles to support his self-confidence id.

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    I saw your post after I replied. I hate that!

    The Shadow example didn't bother me at all precisely because Xander just keeps on talking and takes what Giles says in good spirit. He doesn't react like someone who's feelings were hurt and it doesn't disrupt the flow of the conversation at all. Now, if Xander had shut down the conversation straight after that I may think differently but he doesn't seem remotely fazed by what Giles said and Giles' "but to be fair I wasn't listening" seems like a pretty clear invitation for Xander to continue talking and fill him in.

    Giles communicates differently with Xander because men communicate differently with other men than they do women. And because right from the beginning Xander communicated differently with Giles than Buffy or Willow did. In the early seasons Xander teases Giles a lot and I think he shares equal responsibility for what kind of precedent that sets. I don't think it's about a lacking of caring from either side.
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    Quick thought:

    COMIC SPOILERS:

    Maybe after A&F ends (and we've gotten all the flashbacks we're likely to get) we could have a separate poll for non-Scooby people Giles might have loved. This might include his father, his grandmother, his aunts, and Alastair, as well as BtVS people who weren't on this poll like Joyce and Olivia and people who were in both BtVS and A&F like Ethan.

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    All caught up.

    ________

    In this thread, I’m not going to address other characters’ love for other characters – those characters now have their own threads.





    * My choices are my choices and are self-evident.

    Although seeing A&F 9.19 is making me reconsider if he loved Buffy (this combined with 8.40) and if he loved Willow.

    Given A&F, so far certainly
    Spoiler:
    his grandmother Edna and probably also Sophronia and Lavinia (Edna’s sisters).
    .



    * There isn’t any indication that he loved Tara or Dawn.


    * Given A&F 9.19, I put the ‘love order’ at Jenny Calender, Faith Lehane, Buffy Summers, Willow Rosenberg and that’s it. And of the dead would include those I listed above.


    * I don’t know if we should make anything out of the “Tabula Rasa” (6.08) spell regarding Giles/Anya. Giles and Anya didn’t seem attracted to each other before. Plus, there was no indication post-4.10 that Willow’s been attracted to Xander. Does anyone actually think that subconsciously – or secretly – Giles and Anya wanted to marry each other?

    Giles had Anya working for him because of her operations management, accounting, and customer service skills. Being able to hug her doesn’t mean he loves her.


    * If Giles loved Joyce, he would have asked her out at some point. Giles/Joyce would have been about the perfect situation for Buffy.


    * In “Choices” (3.19), Giles was not even questioning the wisdom of risking the entire town of Sunnydale in order to get Willow back from the Mayor. If that is not love for Willow, what would be?


    * Giles is Buffy’s Watcher; Willow is a member of the Scooby Gang – obviously, Giles would be more responsible for Buffy.


    * Giles clearly never loved Xander.



    TimeTravellingBunny

    I reasoned that what ubisoft was saying is that Giles’ love for Jenny Calender was so much on an entirely higher level than his love for others that she didn’t want to sort of ‘diminish’ Giles’ love for Jenny by having it seem to be comparable to his love for Buffy (the only one she chose in that list).

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    IMO only Buffy - his surrogate daughter, Jenny - his only reall love in the show, and Willow - his protege.

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