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Thread: Angel & Faith # 18 Discussion Thread(full Spoilers)

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    Default Angel & Faith # 18 Discussion Thread(full Spoilers)

    I'm opening this a few days early since I figure spoilers will be safe to talk about here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moscow Watcher View Post
    Preview: Angel & Faith #18

    Source:

    Story by Christos Gage
    Art by Rebekah Isaacs
    Colors by Dan Jackson
    Cover by Steve Morris, Rebekah Isaacs
    Publisher Dark Horse Comics
    Cover Price: $2.99
    Release Date Wed, January 30th, 2013
    A demon from Giles’s past is turning innocent Slayers into zombies. Angel and Faith must rally the remaining Slayers if there is any chance to defeat this cunning demon!






    New tweet from Christos Gage about next weeks Angel & Faith # 18.

    http://twitter.com/Christosgage

    Christos Gage‏@Christosgage

    Next week: ANGEL & FAITH #18! Ripper in the 70s! Eyghon! Zombies! Art by @rebekahisaacs & Dan Jackson! And who shows up on the last page?


    Hmm,maybe Spike does arrive in Angel & Faith next issue on the last page and not in # 20 as had been speculated.As also speculated,could be why Scott Allie really wanted Spike # 5 out this week.

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    Thanks BAF. Sorry if I came across as curt on the news thread, it was unintentional if so. I often lose track of what is 'known' and what is still a spoil so you are probably right to tag it. I think Rebekah said a while ago that she would be drawing Spike in this arc and as there are two issues left 18/19 it is safe to say he will be in those and then obviously the Spike & Faith oneshot is 20. So I have no doubt that the person who shows up at the end of 18 is Spike and that was even before we saw Angel call him in the mini. I don't know why Angel will need Spike specifically unless it is just because he knows that he will want to fight something targeting slayers. Perhaps Angel thought he would be able to use the bugship.

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    I am concerned that Spike's appearance will obfuscate by far the most interesting thing happening now in the Buffyverse- the rift between Faith and Angel. Based Gage's quote about how Angel and Spike are a "buddy comedy" and the Archie mock-up cover and how Spike was played in AtS S5 and based on the crappy, saccharine ending to Willow's appearance on A&F, I have a bad prediction that the writers will use Spike as an instrument to tell an inferior story about Angel and Faith.

    My prediction? Spike will be kind of amused that Angel is alone in his world. Spike will stir the pot of Angel's and Faith's discontent and bond Dirty Girls-style with Faith about the trials and tribulations of being a leather-clad suerpowered bad-ass who is Fetish Fuel. Yet, at the end of the day, it will be Spike who brings Angel and Faith back together because, at bottom, Spike does care for his grandsire and wants him to get his friend back. Spike will leave with some roguishly charming match-maker of a speech that Angel and Faith need to learn how to forgive each other because when you find a companion, you stick with them- preparing Spike to return to Buffy. Spike will also snark that Angel needs Faith to guide him because Faith is the awesomest ala Willow at the end of Family Reunion, but at root, Spike is doing *Angel* a favor.

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    Last time I checked the rift between Angel and Faith was engineered by Joss himself, as him boasting about it ('we want to see how far apart we can break them while still maintaining their special bond this season') was major part of the last interview where he mentioned S9 comics at all. That's probably also why this plot is 'by far the most interesting thing happening now in the Buffyverse'. On other hand, Spike zipping around from book to book was purely mid season invention, that has nothing to do with Whedon's original Big Plan for the season. As far as I see it, Spike's journey to London will have no major effect on any of the involved characters' relationship - because his trip there is not about them at all. It is purely about him flouncing about like proverbial flower in the ice-hole. (Sorry untranslatable Russian saying).

    And when was it the last time that Spike gave a fig about Angel's or Faith's or anybody but his own and Buffy's state of relationship and well-being ? Why would he bother to either interfere or give advice - if it does not involve himself somehow ?

    So my prediction - nothing of the above will happen, except probably the Dirty-Girls style bonding with Faith that might lead to consequences.

    And I don't find the ending of Willow's appearance on A&F either crappy or saccharine. Cutting Connor' chest into ribbons , then turning Dark and being ehlped to take control qualifies for anything but that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorotea View Post
    So my prediction - nothing of the above will happen, except probably the Dirty-Girls style bonding with Faith that might lead to consequences.
    Faith's comments early on that she hadn't slept with him could be a precursor but if his appearance wasn't supposed to happen this season it most likely was not. It would seem odd to me to have him go through the Morgan no thanks story to then go over to A&F and have a pop at Faith whilst he visits. Not impossible but probably not likely. Or do you mean the foundations for a S&F title season 10? I think they are too similar to be really interesting together personally. I don't think this will happen but I'd actually like to see Angel and Faith stick at it for another season and see how they restructure their friendship and work to support each other rather than one acting like the other's sponsor. I'm really looking forward to seeing the AtS friendship history of these too, they are a really interesting pair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney;
    It would seem odd to me to have him go through the Morgan no thanks story to then go over to A&F and have a pop at Faith whilst he visits.
    Actually, NOT hooking up with Morgan (a soulless demon) gives a perspective. Also jumping the first offered bones that are available, would have been in bad taste. Having Morgan as an example of what Spike definitely *does not* want any longer - vs his soulless self happily indulging himself with Pearl in the past with Dru watching, or his just souled self jumping Harmony in AtS S5 - reflects good on Spike as somebody who is much more selective now. And Faith is definitely not in the same league with Morgan being the second (?) hottest Slayer out there.

    I would not be reading the S10 if Angel sticks in London, so I suppose I am just hoping I can continue to read the blasted comics and project my own wishes.

    Still, Spike and Faith might just as well happen - and not necessarily ina romantic sense. Joss had a plan for that spin off and it did not happen only because Eliza turned it down.
    “Personally, I kind of want to slay the dragon” ranks as probably the best next-to-last line in TV history. (Granted, I’m not exactly sure what the competition is.) -- A.V. Club

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorotea View Post
    And when was it the last time that Spike gave a fig about Angel's or Faith's or anybody but his own and Buffy's state of relationship and well-being ? Why would he bother to either interfere or give advice - if it does not involve himself somehow ?
    I'm picturing Spike putting Angel and Faith back together in the vein of him giving advice to Buffy and Angel in Lover's Walk. In Lover's Walk, Spike had no self-interest in giving relationship advice to Buffy and Angel. Spike just did...because the "We're just friend" BS was obvious. And also because Spike takes an interest in Angel's life.

    And I don't find the ending of Willow's appearance on A&F either crappy or saccharine. Cutting Connor' chest into ribbons , then turning Dark and being ehlped to take control qualifies for anything but that.
    And after that, Angel "saved" Willow from herself because every evil dyke needs a manly vampire on hand to bite them and distract them from their evil plans with sex-ay euphoria.

    After that, Willow's moral of the Story of Angel is that she can't hate him. In the most ultimate display of saccharine OOC nonsense, *Willow" tells Faith that Faith has grown and done the best of all them. No, Willow wasn't reading some Faith-stan Tumblr post sarcastically. In the bizarro wrold of Family Reunion, *Willow* pondered how Faith was the best.

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    I don't think a hook up with Faith, whilst not impossibly, would be an option that wouldn't seem a bit... oh I don't know... I kind of want to say tacky or jerky but neither feel fair. They are both free agents and if they were really interested in each other I think that would be a bit different but I don't think Spike would be oblivious to the fact that it could hurt Buffy just because it is Faith, so for just a 'bit of fun' it wouldn't be a great way of showing he cares and is caring. If he had just come out of his mini concluding that Buffy wasn't all that and he was going to seize any opportunity to move on maybe I could see him throwing caution to the wind on this one but that isn't where he is at. As I said, they are free agents and it could be written to play out in a way that wouldn't be bad but the idea is a bit Anya-esque to me.

    The cover of the three of them implies that it is going to be more about Faith's exasperation of the two vamps posturing so I doubt anything 'serious' will happen beyond what notion is taken away at the end by one, two or all of them.

    Is it Angel being in London or with Faith that you don't like, or both?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick;
    in the vein of him giving advice to Buffy and Angel in Lover's Walk. In Lover's Walk, Spike had no self-interest in giving relationship advice to Buffy and Angel. Spike just did...because the "We're just friend" BS was obvious.
    I read that moment completely different from you then. Because I saw it not as an advice at all - and definitely not as friendly advice, or an advice of somebody interested in fixing lovers quarrel, but as a moment of self-reflection and existential rant - that Spike happens to do all the time. And it is always about himself and sometimes it just happen to reflect the others' situation. As such, his sagely advice never served to bring anybody together - in the example you quoted it in fact helped to do just the opposite. So, yeah, while Spike might drop some reflective observation or two, the end result is likely to be unexpected - exactly because he never gives a fig about what is it he is saying. (And I refer you to the ongoing 'Did he really mean it?' dilemma championed by DorotyFan Re:Willow and her power and Spike's momentous reflection in issue #1 of BtVS.)


    And also because Spike takes an interest in Angel's life.
    Always only as an acidic observer, obsessed with getting the better deal off what ever Angel is into. As such , I can actually see Spike provoking the split - because he can get something out of it - like steal somebody from Angel's side to his own - without even realizing what he is doing and without any long-term plans.
    Last edited by dorotea; 25-01-13 at 11:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    Is it Angel being in London or with Faith that you don't like, or both?
    Angel away from Buffy's arms.


    BTW, A&F was a success. The title is steady for months now, 2nd best seller that DH has. Yes, I am sure they are willing to take the risk and try another recipe for S10.

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    Hey, I thought I was firmly on the ignore list of zianna's, No? Please tell me you did not take me off. LOL

    And whilst I definitely would want to see Angel back around Buffy and fixing their differences as soon as possible - I do accept that they will drag this for as long a time as possible and try to squeeze as much drama out of it as they can. As Allie once told me 'Once these two are together the story is over'. So, I don't expect this to happen any time soon. I don't like Angel in London because I find his dipole relationship with Faith deeply unsatisfactory - I am used to him having a team of players, not being somebody's charge. I miss Connor, Gunn, Kate and heck whoever is alive in LA. I would gladly read the kind of a book where Faith is only one of his many relationships. The two of them stewing in the low-boiling soup of their idiotic conflict is not something I would enjoy for another season - because it bored me already. And I have all the reason to believe from Allie's latest twits btw that Angel might be exiting London - hopefully for LA, as Allie was all teary about 'an end of an era'. As for A&F 'success' it lost about 40% of its sales and got less readership now than IDW's non-canonical 'Angel' series got by the end of their very sucky run.

    PS

    I do enjoy Gile's side of the A&F immensely - but I don't think they can drag this plot out for another season.
    Last edited by dorotea; 25-01-13 at 10:23 PM.
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    If there is one thing more than any other on which I hope the writers commit to permanently differentiate Buffy and Faith with, it's Faith not having slept with either Angel or Spike. Yes, since you asked, I would prefer Buffy stab a vulcanologist first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post
    I am concerned that Spike's appearance will obfuscate by far the most interesting thing happening now in the Buffyverse- the rift between Faith and Angel.
    I'm actually hoping that Spike will say what Willow didn't, how Giles was ENRAGED by Willow resurrecting Buffy and the monumental risks therein (back when the world had magic that was more predictable), considering Spike was sitting out on the back porch while that fight went down.

    I'm hoping Spike serves as truthteller disguised in Buddy Cop/Fetish Fuel black leather. Especially considering Spike lived with Giles for the better part of a year, and had watched Giles at a distance before that.

    I just want Spike to call Angel out on his guilt-inspired actions and to voice what Faith's been worrying about internally -- that this resurrection is not what Giles would want.

    I'm really hopeful they do justice to bringing in Spike's perspective. Fingers crossed SO HARD.

    Also, rather than having Spike play the idiot, I hope they realize that he's guest starring to call everyone else idiots.

    Of course, I'm afraid the initial prompting for the crossover -- that he and Angel are still cell phone buddies -- means all the bite in their relationship won't come to fruition.

    Why couldn't Spike have simply shown up because he figured out Angel was f**king up massively? I.e., like Spike did in Season 8.

    Getting called for help is just such lazy set-up, I cannot even, and it sets up this power dynamic of Angel calls, Spike answers.
    Last edited by Emmie; 25-01-13 at 11:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorotea View Post
    And I have all the reason to believe from Allie's latest twits btw that Angel might be exiting London - hopefully for LA, as Allie was all teary about 'an end of an era'.
    Perhaps Faith will hand over the house for the slayers to use as a way of feeling that she has settled with them somehow. Particularly as helping them was her thing which we have been reminded through her flashback and one of the many wonders of Marianne (was that her name) was how she took everyone in. So perhaps Dipstick's complaint about Faith here will out and she will remedy it and they will both leave England. I could see Angel and Faith in the same title as part of a wider team. I just like them together but it does need to stop being a mini support group of two I would agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    If there is one thing more than any other on which I hope the writers commit to permanently differentiate Buffy and Faith with, it's Faith not having slept with either Angel or Spike. Yes, since you asked, I would prefer Buffy stab a vulcanologist first.
    I completely agree because it just gets boring. Equally, a Spike & Faith series would be yet another thing that Angel has done that Spike then does after which also starts to get forced and lame. If we notice Spike sporting a surreptitious nipple sucking device I'm complaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmie View Post
    I'm actually hoping that Spike will say what Willow didn't, how Giles was ENRAGED by Willow resurrecting Buffy and the monumental risks therein (back when the world had magic that was more predictable), considering Spike was sitting out on the back porch while that fight went down.
    This is why I'm hoping that, whilst they have obviously settled things, that Spike doesn't know what is going on so that we can have some of the truthteller side coming forth.

    Getting called for help is just such lazy set-up, I cannot even, and it sets up this power dynamic of Angel calls, Spike answers.
    I don't worry too much about that angle because Angel has been trying to get him and Spike hasn't been answering until he was sat wondering what to do and thought he'd find out what Angel wanted.

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    I find it amusing that people who can't stand Spike and have little (if any) respect for the character expect him to be treated more respectfully by the A&F comic than some of Spike's fans do.

    Pretty much the entire comic has been to serve Angel. We've been told many times now that no one suffers quite like Angel nobly suffers and that whatever his Season 8 mess, he 'meant well.'

    Why would this arc be any different? It's still Angel's comic (far more so than it is Faith's. Despite her being a POV character, it's primarily about her support (or lack of) of Angel.)

    Plus this is the writer who had Faith say "Even Spike..." so I don't expect that either Angel or Faith will be listening to Spike much, at least no so far as taking him seriously.

    In the end, Spike's crossover will probably serve the same purpose as Willow's -- the comics having another character who has some fans tell the audience to stop being so gosh darn hard on Angel. Sure, Angel almost destroyed the world, but he 'meant well,' so bygones, m'kay?

    If we're lucky, Spike might not be made to look like a complete idiot (fingers crossed. That's about has high as my hopes can rise).

    Spike will probably stir the pot a bit and snark, be the sarcastic sidekick. He'll probably be drawn as smoking a lot, and by the time he leaves, I'm sure that it'll be made abundantly clear whose name is usually in the comic title -- Angel's. Which, y'know, whatever. Go with the flow. It is Angel's comic. That's the way that these things work.
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    FWIW, the faux-troversy over "even Spike" is kinda what steers me toward rants like the Yankees/Cubs; Bama/Vandy thing. "Even Spike" was not some meta-shoot comment about Spike's legitimacy as a character. It was a) a perfectly reasonable snipe for someone to take who mostly knows (and thereby mostly cares) about someone by reputation, taken less for the truth of the implication and more for the raw pith of it, and b) is really in the Jossverse idiom of dry wit (ex; "I should've dumped the girl? Or you? Or Jayne? ... oh, Jayne". Does anybody think that comment really represented some fundamental disdain for Jayne's worth or well-being? If he was Spike, yes, yes clearly people would).

    Faith and Spike didn't exactly part as BFFs, either. The only time I can remember either speaking to the other in direct address after Faith bounced him from the Summers house for not respecting her authori-tay, was her piggybacking his Elizabeth Taylor joke. It's not an injustice to Spike that Faith is written as disinterested or insulting to him in 3rd party absentia; it would be a false display of character puffery to contrive some reason for her to be deferential to his good name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    Faith and Spike didn't exactly part as BFFs, either. The only time I can remember either speaking to the other in direct address after Faith bounced him from the Summers house for not respecting her authori-tay, was her piggybacking his Elizabeth Taylor joke. It's not an injustice to Spike that Faith is written as disinterested or insulting to him in 3rd party absentia; it would be a false display of character puffery to contrive some reason for her to be deferential to his good name.
    :: Didn't say say 'even Spike' was an insult. I said that the author that would write Faith saying that isn't going to turn around and have her listening very much to Spike.

    ...And everything you wrote supports that conclusion.

    While I do suspect that Spike will be written as snarky sidekick, I said straight up that it's because in the A&F comic, Angel is the one with protagonist privilege. Angel has outranked Faith throughout the comic and her name is in the title. Angel is the protagonist. The story will serve him. That's simply the way that these things roll, so there's no point in getting angsty about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emmie View Post
    I'm actually hoping that Spike will say what Willow didn't, how Giles was ENRAGED by Willow resurrecting Buffy and the monumental risks therein (back when the world had magic that was more predictable), considering Spike was sitting out on the back porch while that fight went down.
    I'll say up front that I'm Willow-partisan. I was among the first to say that it struck me as OOC that Willow, in the midst of urgently lecturing Faith and Angel that Buffy's resurrection was bad, didn't mention that Giles chewed her out for resurrecting Buffy. Willow wouldn't even have to mention the humiliating, bitter, hateful, "you irredeemably suck" invective that Giles used against Willow in Flooded. It was OOC that Willow didn't even mention that Giles chewed Willow out for resurrecting in the midst of Willow calling Giles's resurrection "reckless", "stupid" and citing how much pain Buffy went through and verbally doubting whether Buffy was happy to be alive even now.

    From the standpoint of both Willow-favoritism and a general fairness conviction that characters shouldn't lose out because they're written OOC, I'd have a sour taste in my mouth if Spike triumphantly exposed Willow as a fraud. Still, I think I'd even swallow that sour taste if it mean that ONE character could approach this resurrection question by commenting on what GILES would have wanted.

    Not so much because Spike *knows* Giles. Spike's final analysis of Giles's character was:

    Spike: You used to be the big man, didn't you? The teacher all full of wisdom. Now she's surpassed you, and you can't handle it. She has saved your lives again and again. She's died for you. And this is how you thank—

    Spike never understood Giles. Spike never liked Giles. I'm not sure that Spike really cares about the state of Giles's soul. However even if Spike doesn't care about Giles, he can still care about the truth and bringing realities into the open. And even though Spike probably doesn't care about Giles, I do totally believe that Spike cares about Buffy who cares about Giles and wouldn't want to see Giles disrespected. And I'd always be into that.

    Getting called for help is just such lazy set-up, I cannot even, and it sets up this power dynamic of Angel calls, Spike answers.
    Yup, I do think that's the dynamic and it's repetitive and ill-suited to where Spike and Angel are now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post
    Yup, I do think that's the dynamic and it's repetitive and ill-suited to where Spike and Angel are now.
    Or, it is all where it was supposed to be (according to Joss) and fandom got it all off the paper napkins.
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    Except we know he had signal and we know that Angel had been trying to get him so not much with the jumping I don't think.

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