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Thread: Angel & Faith #16 Discussion Thread (SPOILERS)

  1. #21
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    I generally liked this issue -- certainly I think it's the best A&F issue in a long time, probably in the whole run of the series. BUT -- it's still got a lot wrong with it, so, ahem, a few complaints for balance:

    Has Giles ever said "spot of tea" before? I guess maybe he's not really Giles, which is why he's talking super stereotypey.

    Generally, I still don't like Gage's dialogue. I don't like the words he uses. Alas. I think a big part of it is that he doesn't use concision for the most part in his dialogue. Even Giles' last line takes *forever* to say -- compare the rhythm of "and yes I have some experience in this area" (I'm going off memory here) to the other big shock-last-minute-Giles-reveal, "I'd like to test that theory," which has exactly the right rhythm for a shock splash page (which is part of why Joss reused it for Willow's entry in season eight, as well as to have Willow paying homage to her mentor). There is a lot of monologuing, and monologuing without poetry, in Gage's writing; I can never feel that there's a rhythm to any character's speech.

    Further, as I was discussing with Emmie off the forums, the hagiography on how that slayer who died was just the most wonderful person who ever personned was really anvilicious. I kept expecting Nadira to say, in between long speech bubbles about how amazing this girl was, to say "Now if it were Sally here [gestures to another slayer] who had died, I wouldn't care!" I get the point that she was a good person who died, but it's tragic even without the long dialogue about how she didn't even want to slay and was so peace loving and kissed puppies in her spare time.

    In addition to all of that: did Nadira et al. really just bring the body around first to Angel's, and then to Giles-I-guess-it-is'? Maybe they should just have a few slayers guard the body while Nadira goes around and does the errands looking for people to help resurrect her; I can't imagine that carrying a corpse around is going to help their mobility. It's a minor detail, but it is kind of silly.

    OOOOOK, so, that said, this is a rocking story for an issue, which means that all is forgiven, or, at least, more so than usual.

    1. OK, that is a pretty fantastic last page reveal (I knew it was Giles before turning the page, though I thought it could maybe be Ethan instead). The question of course is how, whether that's the real Giles, etc.

    2. Nadira's calling Angel on his B.S. was great. But her calling Faith on hers is even better. Nadira could very well be written as an antagonist with respect to Angel -- she has clear reason to hate him, and to think the worst of him, which is entirely valid but is still not balanced out by any fuzzy feelings. But she has fuzzy feelings for Faith, and so for her to lay into Faith actually means a lot, in addition to the strength of her arguments (that Faith betrayed her and the girls by lying to them about Angel being there).

    It's worth thinking about Faith's keeping Angel a secret from Nadira in comparison to Buffy keeping Angel a secret from the Scoobies in early s3. The question of how deeply to demarcate Angel from Twangel is similar to the question of how deeply to demarcate Angel from Angelus. In s3, Buffy and the Scoobies were both badly hurt by Angel(us)' behaviour in the previous year, but while nearly every Scooby had been very close to being killed by Angel(us), only Giles really had suffered directly on the same level as or greater than that Buffy had (though a case could be made for Willow, since she was both closer to Jenny than Buffy and went into a coma). While Angel did punch Faith in #33 and he also killed Giles, it doesn't quite compare to the level of pain he inflicted on those near to Nadira. On the other hand, Faith had an established relationship with Angel and implied debt far before she'd met Nadira, whereas Buffy's relationships with the gang (not counting Oz, who was not a major factor anyway) and with Angel started around the same time.

    Most importantly, though, Buffy was not telling people about the Angel who was basically a wounded kitten at the time -- he may have been abstractly dangerous, and he did manage to get that Glove somewhere, but he wasn't running around wreaking havoc. He also was, you know, living in his own house. Faith has Angel put up in her flat and he still treats her like his Girl Friday. Buffy did in several crucial ways have the Angel situation under control, ways that Faith doesn't. (OTOH, Faith hasn't kissed him either.)

    More to the point, it is really crucial that even the way I've framed it here makes clear that in both situations, Angel more or less checks out very early on of taking responsibility for the way he's hurt others. In early s3 he was still pretty out of it, but he has had quite a while in A&F to think about how maybe he can make life easier for Faith by figuring out how to come clean to Faith's closest charge about how he floated by and watched her friends get killed. If Angel has thought about what kind of position Faith is in because of him, and the fact that his very presence is essentially forcing Faith's hand into betraying her sister-slayers, I haven't seen evidence of it. Maybe the reason I preferred Nadira criticizing Faith to her criticizing Angel is that Angel is already so far beyond the bend it's not even interesting to see him called out on it -- Faith is the one who might actually change and grow at least in the near future.

    3. I'm really glad to see Dru brought up here -- because Drusilla has always been Angel's responsibility, and he's never known what to do with her. Angel's big moments of taking responsibility for Dru directly include trying to get himself staked to prevent her return to power in "What's My Line? Part 2" and setting her on fire in "Redefinition" before this season. I was not a big fan of the "Daddy Issues" arc (though I disliked it less after the "Family Reunion" arc brought the bar even lower), but while I found Angel's posturing particularly annoying for various reasons, I do think that he a) was generally right that removing people's pain is an unwise emotional shortcut, and b) arguably had a right to prevent the Locutus demon (I'm doing the Buffy thing of mispronouncing demon's names for fun and profit) (I might not be doing it well) from sucking out Angel's own pain against his will, even if that meant restoring others' pain. But had Angel not been under direct threat of the Lorthophage fundamentally altering him, I would have been dead set against it. Whether or not it's right to remove one's pain (and I agree that it's probably not), Angel doesn't get to decide to remove PTSD survivors' method of coping, even if it's wrong, unless those people are threats to others, which we didn't see direct evidence of.

    The thing that made Drusilla "dangerous" within the "Daddy Issues" arc was that she was something akin to a drug pusher, selling artificial happiness to people so that they could join her cult. That is pretty crappy and it's fine for Angel to oppose her. But the funny thing is, of course, that the alternative to drug-pusher Drusilla is horrible-murderer Drusilla, and Angel, by re-integrating Dru's pain back in her, turns victims of Drusilla from hiding from their traumas in an unhealthy manner to being very dead. Insofar as one of Angel's central problems is bursting in and heroing things up without thinking of the consequences, this is, er, a big consequence.

    Well, there is obviously more to say but those are things that stuck out for me in this issue.

    EDITED point 1
    Last edited by Local Maximum; 01-12-12 at 03:32 AM.

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    Great post Max!

    I agree with you about some of the dialogue. I don't think it's terrible or anything but I don't think Gage has ever really mastered Giles's voice. It always sounds a bit too polished and proper. I remember this was a criticism many of us shared of #1 and unfortunately Gage hasn't really improved in this area.

    I don't think Giles has ever said "spot of tea" but he did offer tea to Gwendelyon Post a lot -- "Some tea, perhaps?" "Would you like some tea?"

    And I agree about it being too wordy and overblown when they were talking about the Slayer. It's pretty much the same problem that plagued all the Angel/Connor scenes in Family Reunion. I think it's probably just a matter of taste but I do think Gage has a habit of being overly saccharine and a lot of the dialogue just feels unnecessary. You could shave off a lot of those lines and get to the point far quicker.
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    Great post, Local Max! Nadira's OTT eulogy to St. Slayer *was* annoying.

    Angel is really in a PR/ethics conundrum re: the question of whether souls can pass onto other dimensions in the Seedless world. Angel would like to believe that the Seed-breaking had no effect on how death operates so he doesn't have to add "denied millions of souls their ability to Rest In Peace" to his long bill of screw-ups.

    However, he has his own own resurrection project in the form of Giles to contend with. Giles's soul allegedly didn't make it another dimensions but instead Giles's soul was divided into different items. Has Angel stopped to examine why this happened as he's preaching on how other folks' make it to other dimensions so there's no need for the slayers to worry their pretty little heads about that.

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    Haha. Well, Giles offering tea is certainly not OOC. The "spot of tea" thing is. I wish it had been lettered "spo' o' tea" just to go all the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Maximum View Post
    Haha. Well, Giles offering tea is certainly not OOC. The "spot of tea" thing is. I wish it had been lettered "spo' o' tea" just to go all the way.


    Aren't we supposed to be getting some young!Ripper flashbacks in this arc? It'll be interesting to see how Gage writes his dialogue. It'll probably just go to the totally opposite extreme, although to be fair, the only time we've seen young!Ripper was in Band Candy and he was written pretty stereotypically then too.
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    In fine Buffyverse fashion, they are just trying to have it both ways. Angel is talking his hopes, I guess, but at least a chunk of that was to send that up as a trial balloon to the audience -- probably specifically as a way of saying they plan on skating around the question of the Seedless world and the afterlife altogether.

    I was fine with Nadira's rant about her friend. It was reminiscent both of the Scoobies' talking about Willow in "Doppelgangland" or Willow talking about Tara in "Villains". I don't assume that she is this flawlessly virtuous person Nadira describes -- but it's still significant in terms of how much hubris is on display when Angel and Faith just get to decide who to try to violate the laws of nature for on their own criteria. Why doesn't Nadira get to decide? It's a very important point that I don't think Angel (or, now, Faith) can come out of this without learning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post
    Great post, Local Max! Nadira's OTT eulogy to St. Slayer *was* annoying.
    THEORY: the slayer was actually a totally rude and annoying person, and she got hit by a bus. Nadira decided that didn't have enough zest so they made up a cover story. The only disadvantage is that this would imply Dru didn't do it. Though -- the idea of just flat-out lying about what happened in order to push Angel's buttons sounds hilarious. Um. I think I should be taking this more seriously. I liked the issue, remember, self!

    Angel is really in a PR/ethics conundrum re: the question of whether souls can pass onto other dimensions in the Seedless world. Angel would like to believe that the Seed-breaking had no effect on how death operates so he doesn't have to add "denied millions of souls their ability to Rest In Peace" to his long bill of screw-ups.
    lol. Right. I kind of zoomed past that part because my basic assumption has been, and until it's uncontrovertably overturned, will probably continue to be, that "normal" deaths are the same as in our universe -- i.e. they maybe lead to nothing, maybe lead to heaven or hell, maybe something else we have no idea about, etc. And so when Angel talks about expertise, he's just guessing, and in that read it would make sense that the Seed breaking wouldn't fundamentally change the mechanism. But since creativity, ability to cope with sadness and ability to see all the colours of the rainbow are affected by the Seed's destruction, it's really unclear that "oh yeah, souls sort of just go on however they've been doing, somehow" is a reliable account.

    We have Willow's "We don't know. What happens. Why" to go by in "The Body" which, as the definitive natural death episode in the 'verse, is probably good to take on faith.

    However, he has his own own resurrection project in the form of Giles to contend with. Giles's soul allegedly didn't make it another dimensions but instead Giles's soul was divided into different items. Has Angel stopped to examine why this happened as he's preaching on how other folks' make it to other dimensions so there's no need for the slayers to worry their pretty little heads about that.
    Yeah, I mean, the question of how Giles' soul got ENTIRELY put into pieces of magic but everyone who has done less magic than Giles passed on kind of confuses me. Are we to assume that Tara's soul is lying in a bunch of floating (but decaying) roses, that Jenny's soul is floating around the internet somewhere like Moloch, preventing traffic signal mishaps from the beyond? I mean, considering that one of the small but of order of magnitude ten items Angel collected contained "one day of Giles' life," (in issue 1) so I feel like Angel would need around 25,000 more nipple piercings to make up a full Giles. I'm mostly joking here (presumably there are other pieces of Giles that make up more than "one good day with Jenny," and, also possibly, "one good day with Jenny" counts for more than a year of beating up coppers in the final analysis, with soul fragments being not necessarily measured by chronological length).

    Maybe Giles should have sold his soul to a loan demon like the one in "Double or Nothing" for a truck (or, I guess, a horse) and that way it would stay with him after he's gone, provided Giles didn't fall in love again and then Angel could just get Giles back by punching, as he is wont to do. (Brought up just as a reminder to myself that A&F is not the silliest the soul canon has ever been.)


    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    I was fine with Nadira's rant about her friend. It was reminiscent both of the Scoobies' talking about Willow in "Doppelgangland" or Willow talking about Tara in "Villains". I don't assume that she is this flawlessly virtuous person Nadira describes -- but it's still significant in terms of how much hubris is on display when Angel and Faith just get to decide who to try to violate the laws of nature for on their own criteria. Why doesn't Nadira get to decide? It's a very important point that I don't think Angel (or, now, Faith) can come out of this without learning.
    I agree in principle, but the thing is, Doppelgangland was meant to be funny -- I thought of Doppelgangland throughout, and was waiting for one of the slayers in the back to say "better than me" and Nadira to continue "yes. much better." Villains has Willow speaking of Tara in glowing terms but doesn't drone on about her virtues for...panels? (I said pages, but I guess that's not true of Nadira either.) It's less that it's OOC for Nadira or anything as that it's not very fun to read and strikes me that Gage, rather than Nadira, genuinely believes that the best girl died when any twenty-year-old girl dying is more than enough reason to force Angel to reconsider his priorities.

    I do agree entirely with your final point though. The only argument I can see that Nadira doesn't get to decide who to resurrect is that Angel and Faith have put the work in to getting the resurrecting powers, so they get precedence -- but that is pretty weak from a moral pov. Giles is Giles and all, but a middle-aged man who's already suffocated a man to death is not more intrinsically deserving than a young woman who's never had a chance to live an adult life.
    Last edited by Local Maximum; 01-12-12 at 03:23 AM.

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    I actually found Nadira to be plain unreasonable when she abused Angel for not being able to resurrect the Slayer. He didn't say she shouldn't do it, he said she wasn't able to because Giles has unique circumstances for why it's more possible. I think she was right on point when she accused Angel of wanting to resurrect Giles more for his own benefit and I get why she's so enraged and just hears excuses coming out of Angel's mouth, but she placed Angel in an impossible situation there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    I actually found Nadira to be plain unreasonable when she abused Angel for not being able to resurrect the Slayer. He didn't say she shouldn't do it, he said she wasn't able to because Giles has unique circumstances for why it's more possible. I think she was right on point when she accused Angel of wanting to resurrect Giles more for his own benefit and I get why she's so enraged and just hears excuses coming out of Angel's mouth, but she placed Angel in an impossible situation there.
    Partially agree. I think the reason I'm sympathetic to Nadira is that there's frankly no reason Nadira *should* believe Angel at this juncture -- I mean, Angel was telling the truth, but he could just as well be lying to cover his butt and keep on his current course. More to the point, Angel never considered resurrecting anybody besides Giles; certainly their current resurrecting plans couldn't be modified to bring the slayer back instead, but if resurrecting is such a great idea, why focus 100% on Giles and not one of the thousands of Wiccans or even witchy slayers who might be brought back? You mention that you agree with Nadira there, but I just want to emphasize why I think those criticisms are very close to each other.

    Angel is certain that there's nothing to be done about the slayer, but everyone besides Angel would have been certain that there was no way to bring back Giles before Angel obsessively put his mind to it. Angel speaks with an air of authority, but I don't think he's an authority on resurrections -- he's an authority on how to resurrect Rupert Giles, and his self-presentation of expertise to Nadira is something she's right to criticize, IMHO. I don't have the issue on me though so I can't quite remember the exact things she said and how much Nadira was blaming Angel for general dickishness regarding resurrections and how much it's for specifically failing to save her slayer right there.

    That said, Nadira is not 100% right -- Angel can't just resurrect that slayer, no matter how great a person she is. And that is probably good writing -- the fact that the person who raises great points is still partially wrong is a staple of the 'verse.

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    How is Nadira supposed to know who can get resurrected and who can't when even the writers don't seem to have a clue and change the rules on that all the time? I mean, if Giles's "unique circumstances" sound like nonsense to many readers, they must sound like even more of an excuse to Nadira.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Maximum View Post
    Partially agree. I think the reason I'm sympathetic to Nadira is that there's frankly no reason Nadira *should* believe Angel at this juncture -- I mean, Angel was telling the truth, but he could just as well be lying to cover his butt and keep on his current course.
    Completely agree. As I said, I get why she's so enraged at him and I don't blame her at all. But it does also mean there's absolutely nothing Angel can do to possibly appease her. Which, hey, that's his fault but as justified as Nadira's hatred may be it doesn’t mean that she was asking Angel to do something that (I think) he genuinely believes is impossible.

    More to the point, Angel never considered resurrecting anybody besides Giles; certainly their current resurrecting plans couldn't be modified to bring the slayer back instead, but if resurrecting is such a great idea, why focus 100% on Giles and not one of the thousands of Wiccans or even witchy slayers who might be brought back? You mention that you agree with Nadira there, but I just want to emphasize why I think those criticisms are very close to each other.
    True. However, this is where Nadira is far more alike Angel than she'd probably be willing to admit. Because Giles is "just some old bloke" to her and she certainly wasn't knocking down doors to resurrect him. Marianne is her friend so of course it matters more to her that she is resurrected just like Angel has personal reasons for wanting Giles back. And if Marianne is as saintly and good as Nadira says would she really be ok with Nadira busting down Twilight's door for help? Or going to some sketchy house where she obviously considers the people untrustworthy (as she threatens them) and bad news? There's some pretty strong Angel/Nadira parallels going on throughout this issue. They're both motivated by selfishness when it comes to the resurrections, they're both willing to compromise their morals to make it happen, it's arguable that they're both going against the wishes of the person they're so desperate to bring back, and of course what Giles said to Faith equally applies to her relationship with Nadira as it does with Angel.

    I'm always going to be sympathetic to Nadira. She's the way she is because of Angel and she has every reason to hate him. But I do think Nadira was demanding the impossible (expecting Angel to be able to bring back Marianne with the same methods he intended to bring back Giles) and that there's literally nothing Angel could say or do that wouldn't just make her more enraged. And as much as I think Angel deserves her animosity and as angry I am at Angel's resurrection plans – I don’t get any joy out of seeing someone bashed (in this case literally) for things that aren’t their fault. In other words; it’s really complicated.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 01-12-12 at 06:17 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    And if Marianne is as saintly and good as Nadira says would she really be ok with Nadira busting down Twilight's door for help? Or going to some sketchy house where she obviously considers the people untrustworthy (as she threatens them) and bad news?
    It's very possible that Marianne would be okay with swallowing those indignities because the only alternative is that she stays dead. And if Marianne is as special and saintly and good as Nadira says, I'd think that Marianne would want to do whatever she can to live so she can keep helping others and interacting with those who she loves.

    Generally, people who I perceive as good and wonderful and valuable to society in my daily life, give off vibes that they value their own lives. They go vacations and take time-off from their non-profits and projects but they're eager to get back to it and take it personally when things fall through the cracks because they weren't there to take care of it.

    If Marianne is as good as Nadira says, I'm sure that Marianne left Nadira with the impression that there's nothing Marianne would hate more than being dead, unable to help with all of Marianne's projects and people who need her help left twisting in the wind. In fact based on Nadira's comments, I have every confidence that Nadira and the other slayers REALLY think they're acting in Marianne's interest and according to Marianne's desires.

    I even sympathize with Angel's plans to resurrect Giles because I actually think that Angel really thinks that Giles would want to be resurrected. Willow is at great fault for not sharing Giles's angrily stated opinions on resurrections with Angel. I don't regard Angel's plans to resurrect Giles with the same sympathy that I regard Nadira resurrecting Marianne, the Scoobies resurrecting Buffy, Dawn resurrecting Joyce because Angel isn't resurrecting Giles out of love for Giles so much as a desire for Angel to wipe that part of his conscience clean. However even though I believe that Angel is primarily resurrecting Giles for the sake of Angel's own conscience, I do firmly believe that Angel really honestly believes that he's doing what Giles would want.
    Last edited by Dipstick; 01-12-12 at 07:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Maximum View Post
    Yeah, I mean, the question of how Giles' soul got ENTIRELY put into pieces of magic but everyone who has done less magic than Giles passed on kind of confuses me. Are we to assume that Tara's soul is lying in a bunch of floating (but decaying) roses, that Jenny's soul is floating around the internet somewhere like Moloch, preventing traffic signal mishaps from the beyond? I mean, considering that one of the small but of order of magnitude ten items Angel collected contained "one day of Giles' life," (in issue 1) so I feel like Angel would need around 25,000 more nipple piercings to make up a full Giles.
    I honestly haven't been paying close enough attention to A&F's story to recall, but didn't Angel say that he needed one more piece of Giles soul and then they were ready in "Family Reunion"? Has the text explicitly said that the entirety of Giles' soul is now caught in magical objects? I'm asking because maybe someone remembers the specifics of that context better than I do, which would relate to my theory here.

    What if the plan isn't to collect all the pieces of Giles soul in objects, but to collect enough pieces of Giles' soul caught in magical objects as a means of calling back Giles soul from the great beyond?

    Think about it like Xander back in "The Replacement". There's a natural, inherent magic to being. Giles soul, in its natural state, should be whole.

    If Angel collects enough remnants of Giles soul, maybe he can create enough force to draw back Giles' soul which has passed on to wherever souls go in the afterlife.

    It's like a cheat for a resurrection spell. The low-tech version of opening a portal the way Willow has to cheat to get to Quor'toth by tearing it open by using Connor's connection to Quor'toth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post
    Willow is at great fault for not sharing Giles's angrily stated opinions on resurrections with Angel.
    Yet another amazing opportunity which "Family Reunion" failed to capitalize on. As fans, I know we're more attuned to these moments, noticing the callbacks. I wonder if Gage thought of it, since he seems to have a fairly good grasp on worldbuilding mechanics. I'm remembering how Joss used to comment upon rewatching episodes of the show -- that obsessiveness that I think he shares with fans. I guess I'm leaning towards the assumption that Gage didn't rewatch some of BtVS Season 6 before writing Willow, simply because his Willow fell flat for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post
    However even though I believe that Angel is primarily resurrecting Giles for the sake of Angel's own conscience, I do firmly believe that Angel really honestly believes that he's doing what Giles would want.
    This is the conundrum for me. Because is Angel basing this on the assumption that everyone wants to live, to be resurrected? I'm not sure I see any specific Giles-reasoning that Angel is using. And because it lacks the specific in terms of Giles, whereas Angel's personal reasons are very clear, and Angel also lacks the more general application of his reasoning that everyone wants to live -- if everyone does, then why is he only helping bring back Giles and not dead witches (as Local-Max pointed out).

    Basically, Angel may honestly believe this is what Giles wants, but that only really tells me that Angel doesn't know what Giles wants, that Angel doesn't know Giles. Thus, it's still All About Angel since this is about Angel's idea of Giles, not about Giles himself.
    Last edited by Emmie; 01-12-12 at 08:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emmie View Post
    Yet another amazing opportunity which "Family Reunion" failed to capitalize on. As fans, I know we're more attuned to these moments, noticing the callbacks. I wonder if Gage thought of it, since he seems to have a fairly good grasp on worldbuilding mechanics. I'm remembering how Joss used to comment upon rewatching episodes of the show -- that obsessiveness that I think he shares with fans. I guess I'm leaning towards the assumption that Gage didn't rewatch some of BtVS Season 6 before writing Willow, simply because his Willow fell flat for me.
    I'm inclined to agree that Gage just didn't think of Flooded. However if I really wanted to ascribe dastardly motives to Willow, I would argue that she kept Giles's rant in Flooded to herself because it could end Angel's plan to resurrect Giles and thus, remove all of the value of Willow's main payment for being taken to Quor-Toth.

    This is the conundrum for me. Because is Angel basing this on the assumption that everyone wants to live, to be resurrected? I'm not sure I see any specific Giles-reasoning that Angel is using. And because it lacks the specific in terms of Giles, whereas Angel's personal reasons are very clear, and Angel also lacks the more general application of his reasoning that everyone wants to live -- if everyone does, then why is he only helping bring back Giles and not dead witches (as Local-Max pointed out).

    Basically, Angel may honestly believe this is what Giles wants, but that only really tells me that Angel doesn't know what Giles wants, that Angel doesn't know Giles. Thus, it's still All About Angel since this is about Angel's idea of Giles, not about Giles himself.
    I really agree with you. I do feel that Angel honestly believes that this is what Giles's wants- but it's only because Angel is applying the general pro-life human meme to Giles rather than through personally knowing Giles. By Forever, Dawn saw her mother afraid of her cancer and dying, going through brain-surgery to stay alive. Willow lived through years of Buffy bemoaning how her destiny would cut her life short and would deprive her of having a family or the promise of getting a job to make Career Day seem worthwhile and being incredibly hurt through Cordelia's "This conversation is reserved for those of us who have a future" snark. None of that specificity exists for Angel re: Giles.

    However to throw Angel a bone, it's not like Angel is pushing the resurrection even though he knows that Giles wouldn't want it or even has reason to suspect that Giles wouldn't want it. And the belief that most people want to live is pretty universal.

    Also, Angel's cause is "helped" by the fact that Faith is participating in the resurrection. Giles did Watcher Faith in Giles's last year and Giles left Faith all of his possessions. It does really help Angel feel like he's doing the right thing when Giles's heiress supports his cause.

    ETA: This is another reason why Giles's decision to leave everything to Faith seems so dumb and cruel. Being named the heiress to substantial property confers a lot of importance and decisions to the heiress about how the deceased would like their affairs handled. In our real life, it doesn't mean resurrection per se, but it means a lot of other important stuff. Faith was in no way ready, prepared or worthy to be the one to handle Giles's estate from control of Giles's body, to deciding the occupants' of Giles's house to being a good steward of Giles's magical possessions. Buffy would have been a much better steward and much more in-tune to what Giles would have wanted to do with his stuff.
    Last edited by Dipstick; 01-12-12 at 09:41 PM.

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    What I want to know is, once all the pieces of Giles's soul are collected, what will happen to Angel's evil nipple?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morphia View Post
    What I want to know is, once all the pieces of Giles's soul are collected, what will happen to Angel's evil nipple?
    It gives birth to Giles, presumably. The Buffy reference to Alien now makes so much sense!
    Last edited by Emmie; 02-12-12 at 12:31 AM.

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    Dipstick, I wasn't thinking of it in terms of Marianne suffering any "indignity." If she's as concerned for the well-being of the Slayers as she's meant to be then I don't take it as a given that she'd be ok with them risking themselves just to bring her back. There's a very good possibility that someone like Marianne would rather remain dead then see her loved ones place themselves in harm’s way or compromising themselves by making shady deals.

    We're supposed to have zombie Slayers in this arc, yeah? Not a stretch that it'll probably have something to do with whatever bargain Nadira strikes with "Giles" or as some horrible consequence for trying to bring Marianne back. A person who prioritizes the well-being of others before themselves wouldn't condone risking an entire squad of Slayers just to save their (already dead) arse. In my eyes that would go against everything Marianne would want.

    I have no idea if Marianne agrees with resurrection or not. We've seen plenty of perfectly good people (Buffy, Giles, Tara) who do not so I don't think it's a given either way. We don't know anywhere near enough about her to even hazard a guess so that's really not what I was focusing on.

    We'll have to wait and see just what Nadira is willing to do to bring Marianne back. So far it doesn't look good but I hope she has her limits.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 02-12-12 at 05:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    Dipstick, I wasn't thinking of it in terms of Marianne suffering any "indignity." If she's as concerned for the well-being of the Slayers as she's meant to be then I don't take it as a given that she'd be ok with them risking themselves just to bring her back. There's a very good possibility that someone like Marianne would rather remain dead then see her loved ones place themselves in harm’s way or compromising themselves by making shady deals.
    I agree with this. The problem with the scoobies resurrecting Buffy has ultimately to do with how it shows them being unable to accept her death as final and move on. It's a psychological flaw not a moral one which makes sense because of the real world resonances not the made up mythology.

    Giles's argument with Willow in Flooded wasn't on the basis that Buffy would not wanted to have been resurrected but that the risks to Buffy (who still appeared damaged) and more importantly to Willow herself and the world made the attempt unthinkable. Willow disagreed with his risk analysis then and still does in A&F. She knows it's risky but she believes it is possible and that a possibility of success (however low the probability) outweighs the risks associated with failure. Basically she thinks Giles is wrong about the facts not the morality and therefore would be unlikely to bring it up in an argument with Angel. From her point of view it's irrelevant that Giles is more risk-averse than she is. It might be different if he had a religious objection to resurrection of the kind she now seems to accept Tara had.

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    Well, I certainly wasn't expecting this to happen: after the entire Buffyverse season 9 had sunk to the low point (with both Buffy and Angel & Faith having several awful issues in a row and the Willow title not looking terribly promising), this season isn't looking so horrible anymore and may even turn out to be somewhat OK? The Spike title, which I had been cautiously optimistic about, had a really intelligently written latest issue (Spike #4) which addressed Spike's character and his relationship with Buffy with some depth (which we hadn't seen in the main Buffy title with its "Spike is a vampire, Buffy needs normal" preoccupations); and, more surprisingly, the latest two issues of Angel & Faith, the title I had been the most disappointed and annoyed with for most of the season, have turned out to be really good. And that after this title had sunk to the absolute nadir with the dreadful Family Reunion arc. The Hero of His Own Story was a pleasant surprise (and for once, even the sexist objectification of Buffy could be justified, since it's in character for both Whistler and Angel, not just based on the Riley one-shot but also Becoming I), and Death and the Consequences pt 1, while not perfect, is the best issue of the season so far (granted, in a very poor competition). This is more like the story I expected after A&F #1.

    Now, if only the Buffy title stops being so dull and shallow... If Willow:Wonderland turns out better that it looks like based on the first issue, and if A&F continues in this vein, maybe this season can be salvaged? But after all the bad writing over most of the season, I'm not ready to trust Gage not to screw it up again.

    It should be noted that A&F has so far been the best whenever it's focused on Whistler (who was such a minor character on BtVS the show and never even appeared on AtS) and the original characters (Nadira, Pearl and Nash), rather than on the many pointless and mostly OOC guest star appearances of various well known Buffyverse characters. (Let's hope Spike fares better.) Which is completely the opposite of what is happening in the Buffy title. But it's because these are the characters that have the strongest connection to Angel's season 8 actions and the Twilight plot, as the perpetrators or the victims. It's not surprising that the title is much better when it tries to address season 8 head-on than when it tries to sweep it aside. (And maybe it's also due to the fact that Gage is just not that good at writing many of the well known characters IC.)

    Regarding the story itself, I don't have much to add to what others have said. I would add that there is a parallel between Faith in this issue and Angel in the previous one. While Faith has to stop going along with Angel and falling for his crap because she feels she owes him for helping turn her life around her when she was at her lowest, Angel has had to stop trusting Whistler and falling for his crap because he felt Whistler had pulled him from the gutter and helped him turn his unlife around.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    Angel and Faith 1.16 bullet points and analysis

    I’ll mostly discuss the ‘cliffhanger’ stuff in my Angel and Faith 1.17 bullet points and analysis. One of the reasons this is late is because I wanted to skim through A&F 1.17 before posting.


    Overall, this Issue wasn’t compelling. It would have been if Nadira and Co. could actually kill Angel (they can’t unless Joss wants to kill him and wants Nadira and Co. to have that honor) or if Faith was actually going to abandon Angel (she isn’t at least for another 9 Issues, which means another 9 months of reading these comics). Pretty much the only compelling thing that happened is Nadira and Co. breaking ties with Faith. But that will likely only result in less screen time for Nadira and Co., or no screen time for Nadira and Co., or Nadira and Co. being killed. So, production-wise, they will be punished for Faith siding with Angel over her fellow Slayers.

    As for Faith breaking ties with Angel, that will only happen if Angel is going to have his own ‘show’ again. And his comics aren’t selling that well even with Faith in them and in the title.

    ________________


    * Angel should still have money from his Angel Investigations business and his Wolfram and Hart compensation, so is he paying for things like his airfare?

    * I wonder if Faith is flying first class, business class, or coach.

    Those seem to be business class or first class seats.

    * Art observation: Rebekkah Isaacs draws Faith with a relatively flat butt, thus being accurate to Eliza Dushku’s figure.

    I’m still unhappy that her Drusilla looks like she’s in her 40s.

    * Angel to Faith: “If you worked demolitions I’d be running for my life.”

    Given what Angel did in BtVS S8, it’ll always not be amusing when Angel says any such thing.

    * Faith is concerned with even members of a drug cartel getting proper burials and having their families notified.

    Yet she’s helping a guy responsible for possibly millions to hundreds of millions of deaths.

    * So, Angel’s plan includes having Giles have to continuously wear a Crown of Coils on his head or else he’d decompose?

    * On the plane, Angel is on the aisle seat next to Faith. He has a sweatshirt on with the hood up.

    * Did that conversation with Giles actually happen, or is that all in Faith’s head?

    I lean towards it’s in her head given she’s discussing mentoring Slayers.

    * Faith is wanting guidance from Giles even though in BtVS S8, Giles did stupid things like not informing Buffy of Genevieve and not informing Buffy of the SuperSlayer and SuperVampire Prophecy.

    Why wouldn’t she want guidance from Buffy?

    And she’s betraying Buffy by not telling her of the Giles resurrection plan.

    * Giles to Faith: “[W]hile you are quite guarded with people, once you do become attached to them, your loyalty is extreme. To the point that you place their interests above your own, even when it causes you harm.”

    Since this is most likely a conversation that only happens in Faith’s head, this is what Faith is thinking. Her extreme loyalty only applies to the Mayor and to Angel. She was never relatively that loyal to Buffy or the Scoobies. Even with Giles, in BtVS S8 she did that assassination mission partly for Buffy.

    As for putting their interests above her own, it’s not as if the Mayor wasn’t providing her with anything. That was more-or-less a mutual relationship. So, this only applies to A&F with Angel.

    * Giles to Faith: “But you’ve seen firsthand there are those who can’t be helped …. Those so damaged they can only drag anyone who seeks to aid them into their morass of pain and dysfunction.”

    I don’t know whom she’s referring to as “those who can’t be helped”, maybe Drusilla and those Dru was trying to help.

    But this is obviously Faith thinking that maybe Angel can’t be helped and that her helping him is only resulting in her hurting herself.

    * Faith is having a brandy or something and she has like Bose headphones.

    Timeline: at least they aren’t Beats by Dr. Dre.

    * It takes both Angel and Faith to lift the stone lid of the sarcophagus and they both strained to do it.

    In “Something Blue” (4.09), Buffy and Spike easily lifted such a lid and carried it to a door.

    In “Blood Ties” (5.13), Spike at one end of the stap lifts and tosses a lid several feet away and it wasn’t a struggle.

    Unless Giles’ sarcophagus lid was unnaturally heavy, this suggests that Buffy and Spike combined are stronger than Angel and Faith combined and that an enraged Spike can have bursts of strength that are more than Angel and Faith’s combined ‘normal’ strength.

    * It seems odd that when they lifted the coffin, Angel and Faith didn’t notice that it was a little light.

    * Faith’s house is 3 stories, how are there only 3 bedrooms in that thing?

    * Does Faith not know about teleportation? Someone could have magically teleported Giles’ body out of the coffin.

    * Was Giles’ funeral closed casket, or did none of the Scoobies, or Faith go to the funeral.

    Given Faith telling herself that she’s extremely loyal, did she stay with Angel instead of going to Giles’ funeral even after Giles gave her his entire estate?

    * The big showdown between Nadira and Faith over Faith’s keeping Angel’s whereabouts a secret and Faith being friends with Angel amounted to Nadira scolding Faith for around two minutes and then breaking ties with Faith.

    * Nadira to Faith: “[T]he two of you fought Drusilla back to back, in a burning church in front of dozens of witnesses.”

    First off, this implies that Nadira seems to consider that Angel and Faith would need to fight together in order to try to defeat Drusilla.

    Secondly, this implies that the “witnesses” are those that Dru was helping and that none of them was okay with Angel killing the Lorophage demon and none were okay with Angel and Faith trying to fight Dru.

    * Nadira to Faith: “[Angel] murdered an entire unit of Slayers last year. My sisters.”

    This is new information. Nadira doesn’t mention Pearl and Nash. She says Angel himself murdered this unit. If so, this refutes any argument that Angel wasn’t directly killing people in BtVS S8.

    * Faith to Nadira: “He was under the influence of Twilight. Which I know you think was him, but it was, like, this massive cosmic force of -- Jesus, even I don’t understand it…”

    First off, does Faith actually believe this? If she did, why wouldn’t she be telling Nadira and Co. this from the start?

    Has Angel told Faith this?

    Or is Faith simply trying to rationalize Angel and her to Nadira?

    Is Faith trying to rationalize to herself her helping Angel?

    Anyway, given A&F 1.11, what Faith says isn’t true.

    Faith is possibly out of earshot – or wasn’t paying attention – when in A&F 1.11 Angel tells Willow: “Once we’d given the Twilight universe form, I was going to bring everyone over!” Angel speaks to Willow as if he’s responsible for everything that happened until Twilight literally possessed him. So, Angel wasn’t under any influence when he killed the Slayers.

    Willow in A&F 1.11 is told by Angel that he would have brought everyone into Twilight. Whether she believes that or not is another debate. But the fact is that she doesn’t seem to know for sure that Angel wanted everyone to die.

    What if Faith believes – or is trying to rationalize to herself – that Angel was under the influence of Twilight the whole time? Is that how she’s justifying helping him out? What if she finds out or finally acknowledges that Angel is fully responsible for all the damage in BtVS S8 other than maybe killing Giles and trying to kill Spike?

    * Lavinia doesn’t want to deal with dead Slayer; Sophronia wanted to stay but she is shooed out by Lavinia.

    * Apparently Angel and Faith were gone for days.

    * Did Nadira and Co. see Drusilla kill the Slayer?

    There’s a flashback. In it, Dru simply slashed the Slayer’s throat.

    * Nadira then accuses Angel of letting Dru go.

    What does Nadira mean? That Angel didn’t want Faith and him to kill Dru?

    * Angel to Nadira: “I didn’t [let Dru go.] Her followers attacked us. She ran. We tried to find her, but hey were chasing us. By the time we lost them, there was nothing we could [do].”

    Angel’s pretty much trying to lie his way out of the situation. Angel did not to try to dust Dru. Angel was only there to try to keep Faith mentally unstable and miserable.

    By the way, once they realize Angel can’t or is unwilling to help them, why couldn’t they try to dust Angel? They could always come back with more Slayers if they think that the five of them couldn’t take on Angel and Faith. Nadira left the house threatening Angel, but who knows what will come of that.

    * Nadira to Angel: “Of course not. You kill demons and monsters and elder gods like you’re swatting bloody flies. But one vampire keeps getting away from you. One vampire you “sired.” Isn’t that what you leeches call it? One vampire you shagged. One vampire you spent a hundred years slaughtering people with. Now another girl’s dead. One more body on the pile. And here you are, full of excuses, reasons why it’s not your damn fault--”

    Who is telling Nadira this stuff? What elder gods? Angel was with Dru for 18 years. Does Nadira know about Darla? I wonder how she’d handle Angel/Darla of AtS s2 and AtS s3. Or even Angel/Darla in BtVS S1. Does Nadira know about Spike?

    Anyway, Dru was being peaceful and helping. It’s Angel’s fault that she’s insane again. And if Dru killed Slayers, she did it because they were trying to attack her. So, Nadira has the wrong reasons for being against how Angel tried to handle the Drusilla situation in A&F.

    * Faith says the Slayer they brought in that Dru killed wasn’t a good Slayer.

    So, this possibly explains why Dru was able to kill her so easily. Then again, Drusilla very easily killed Kendra and very little indicates that Faith wouldn’t also be killed by Dru in a fight. A&F 1.09 suggests not only that Drusilla is stronger than Faith but that she’d beat Faith even if Faith were armed with a sword or stake.

    * Does Nadira not know about magic works and how a person is not supposed to come back from a natural death?

    * Nadira asks Angel and Faith why should Giles (who’s old) deserve to be brought back more than a nice 23 year old Slayer who provided housing for homeless Slayers.

    It’s a nice question, but Giles is full of knowledge and that’s possibly more useful to the world than a nice Slayer who doesn’t even slay (or at least doesn’t even want to slay).

    And was Andrew lying about that foundation he said he created? Why are there homeless Slayers? Do these homeless Slayers not know about the job opportunities that Slayers are getting (like being bodyguards)?

    * Nadira accuses Angel and Faith of them wanting to bring Giles back not because it’s the right thing to do, but because it’s what Angel wants.

    And Angel and Faith’s guilty expresses answers that is it mainly for Angel, not Giles.

    * Nadira tells them that they are going to bring back the Slayer instead of Giles or she’s going to kill both of them.

    She could probably round up a bunch of Slayers and actually succeed in killing them. There are very likely at least hundreds of Slayers in the world who would want Angel dusted.

    * If a powerful witch or warlock can be brought back from the dead, why wouldn’t Willow have brought Tara back?

    How would Angel know about such a spell if apparently even Willow doesn’t? And does Angel not know about Tara? Why wouldn’t he have told Angel about the resurrection spell he’s going to use on Giles?

    * We never find out the “one important thing that makes Giles different from anyone else. That kept his soul from moving on when he--.”

    * Nadira decks Angel. She has stake on her. So, why is Angel so casual with her when she has an easy access stake on her hip?

    Is it significant that Nadira is powerful enough to punch Angel to the ground?

    * Angel tells Nadira those souls moving on to where they go after death is not a magical process, that it’s a natural process.

    This makes sense since souls are a natural part of people. And because if this weren’t true then it would imply that souls are put in people through magic and therefore any new child born would be soulless. And there’d be no reason for why Angel would still have a soul since he only has one because of a curse.

    * Nadira parts by telling Angel that unless he can help them bring their Slayer friend back from the dead that he’ll be dusted.

    Obviously, Nadira and Co. for ‘production-reasons’ are highly unlikely to dust Angel, so I wonder how this plotline is gong to go away. Either Nadira and Co. forget about wanting to kill Angel, get past wanting to kill Angel (which wouldn’t make much sense), or they are killed.

    * Nadira parts by telling Faith that since Faith decided to protect Angel and be friends with him that Faith’s made her choice and therefore Nadira and Co. wants nothing more to do with her.

    Nadir and Co. seem sad about having to break ties with Faith.

    It seems that they could have demanded that Faith give them housing. And that’s an interesting thing. Did Faith not know that some Slayers were being made homeless? Here she is having Angel live with her when there are Slayers out there without homes. Did Faith forget what it was like to live in that really crappy motel?

    And why didn’t Angel offer money to Nadira and Co. to help out homeless Slayers. He should still have at least hundreds of thousands and possibly millions of dollars from his monies from Angel Investigations and his Wolfram and Hart compensation.

    * Faith won’t let Angel comfort her.

    * Nadira doesn’t know what Giles looks like?

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