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Thread: Joss on Romney

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointMan View Post
    Heck, Clinton just the other day accused the military of being racist, sexist and biased.
    Yea because such accusations lack any foundation in factual events
    http://www.pri.org/stories/politics-...vate-7607.html
    Or, you know, that whole Don't Ask, Don't Tell travesty.

    I'm not saying that I agree with Clinton's accusations, but to say that's she an idiot saying idiotic things because she thinks there is racism/sexism in the army seems like you're grasping at straws. If you want to point out an idiot saying idiotic things, perhaps you should focus your attention on someone like Todd Akin and his fundamental lack of knowledge about the female body.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    Problem is these "idiots" you speak of are the major faces of the Republican party. Bush? Palin? Santorum? Romney? They've all expressed views that are either extremely distasteful or just seem bizarre to a lot of us outside of the US. 8 years of the Bush administration did a lot of harm to how the rest of the world perceived the US. People's attitude towards America has undoubtedly become more positive since Obama took power and a lot of people have an extreme aversion to Romney and his views. It's easier to dismiss people lower in the ranks but it's a lot harder when you're faced with imbeciles (IMO) that are running for President, Vice President, or actually were President etc.

    I can quote you more then a few idiotic or disturbing things that Obama or Biden have said, but whats the point. And yes, the worlds favorite pastime is being down on the U.S.... right up until they need us to save their asses But heck, I can actually get behind this non-interference idea. Not only do we save money and personnel by not sending troops into other countries, but we'd save even more money if we didn't send any money to other countries for any reason period. Count me in.


    Foyboy: Couple of points. First, it was Bill Clinton who enacted Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Second, it was Bill Clinton who accused the military of being sexist, racist and biased.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointMan View Post
    And yes, the worlds favorite pastime is being down on the U.S.... right up until they need us to save their asses But heck, I can actually get behind this non-interference idea. Not only do we save money and personnel by not sending troops into other countries, but we'd save even more money if we didn't send any money to other countries for any reason period. Count me in.
    You pretty much ignored everything I just said. I said the US's reputation was greatly harmed throughout the Bush Administration but that since Obama came into office people's attitude towards the US has changed for the better. My point was that the extreme conservative views of the Republican Party is what, not always, but ordinarily, most come into conflict with European countries (and Australia). For example, for those of us who have always had free health care available to us we find it strange and pretty appalling that Republicans want to get rid of Obamacare.

    As for the whole "save their asses", argh, can we not? That falls into some pretty unfortunate stereotypes too. I wasn't making any blanket anti-US sentiments. I was just pointing out that, no, the reason the Republican party has a bad reputation outside of the US isn't became of the left-winged media but largely because of their policies too. As BuffySpike says, the common perception of most conservative politicians is that they're a little "backward" in their thinking and Romney has done nothing but reinforce that. Frankly, when it comes to social justice issues his track record is bloody awful.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 06-11-12 at 05:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    You pretty much ignored everything I just said. I said the US's reputation was greatly harmed throughout the Bush Administration but that since Obama came into office people's attitude towards the US has changed for the better. My point was that the extreme conservative views of the Republican Party is what, not always, but ordinarily, most come into conflict with European countries (and Australia). For example, for those of us who have always had free health care available to us we find it strange and pretty appalling that Republicans want to get rid of Obamacare.
    Well it all comes down to this thing called the Constitution. In that document there is this part that says basically that if a power isn't explicitly given to the Federal government, then that power is denied them. And since there is nothing in the Constitution anywhere that gives the federal government the power to mandate healthcare, it's pretty much a constitutional violation. Us conservatives have this wacky idea that the laws must be obeyed and that the government can't simply make them up as they go along.

    I doubt any of the countries with guaranteed healthcare ever had such limitations placed on their governments, which is fine if that works for you. It doesn't work for us.
    Last edited by PointMan; 06-11-12 at 05:44 AM.
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    Yep, it does work for us. What we can't understand is that your healthcare system quite clearly wasn't working for you and yet conservatives are still opposed to changing it. 46 million Americans had no health insurance (including 9 million children) and 18,000 people died each year as a result of this. You have a higher infant mortality rate than places such as Cuba and a child has a better chance of survival in El Salvador than it does in Detroit. More than 60% of bankruptcies in the US is due to medical bills and you are said to pay almost twice as much for healthcare as citizens of other developed countries etc. Why anybody would be opposed to changing this and trying to make healthcare universally available to all citizens is beyond me. It'd be one thing if the healthcare system was working and then I could understand the resistance to change and become like all other industrialised countries, but it's clearly not, and you just have to look at a close neighbour like Canada to see a far superior model.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    Yep, it does work for us. What we can't understand is that your healthcare system quite clearly wasn't working for you and yet conservatives are still opposed to changing it. 46 million Americans had no health insurance (including 9 million children) and 18,000 people died each year as a result of this. You have a higher infant mortality rate than places such as Cuba and a child has a better chance of survival in El Salvador than it does in Detroit. More than 60% of bankruptcies in the US is due to medical bills and you are said to pay almost twice as much for healthcare as citizens of other developed countries etc. Why anybody would be opposed to changing this and trying to make healthcare universally available to all citizens is beyond me. It'd be one thing if the healthcare system was working and then I could understand the resistance to change and become like all other industrialised countries, but it's clearly not, and you just have to look at a close neighbour like Canada to see a far superior model.
    And yet people don't come from all over the world to Canada in order to get medical treatment.

    As far as the infant mortality rate goes, what most people don't know is that the reason why the United States rate is so high is because we have the most stringent system. Unlike in many other countries, if a child is born alive, regardless of how much they weigh or how long they live, they are considered to be alive and therefore if they die soon after they count against us. Countries like Cuba and El Salvadore are not nearly as inclusive. If you don't believe me, read this article http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...scott-w-atlas# and there are many more like it.

    The healthcare system has problems sure, but us conservatives don't believe the answer is to basically throw out the current system and start over.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointMan View Post
    And yet people don't come from all over the world to Canada in order to get medical treatment.
    Nobody is saying that the US doesn't have a lot of great technology in the field of medicine or top notch doctors etc. The problem isn't that you lack the facilities, the problem is that they're not available to 47 million of your citizens. It's all well and good to boast about people coming all around the world to get medical treatment but that doesn't address the fact unlike in countries like Canada, it's not accessible to millions of people who actually need it. So what good does that do?

    And in a report comparing health care systems for Australia, Canada, Britain, USA, Netherlands and New Zealand the US actually ranked last. It found that not only do US citizens pay twice as much but you actually get poorer quality and less efficiency. You'd think looking at all these global statistics and seeing how other industrialised countries function with their healthcare system, conservatives wouldn't be so against universal healthcare. It’s obviously a superior model to what your system had so it seems bizarre not to follow it.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 06-11-12 at 07:16 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    Nobody is saying that the US doesn't have a lot of great technology in the field of medicine or top notch doctors etc. The problem isn't that you lack the facilities, the problem is that they're not available to 47 million of your citizens. It's all well and good to boast about people coming all around the world to get medical treatment but that doesn't address the fact unlike in countries like Canada, it's not accessible to millions of people who actually need it. So what good does that do?
    For one thing the real number is not 48 million. That number was reached by combining the number of people who are unable to afford healthcare with the number of people who are temporarily without, such as those changing jobs of children who become too old to stay on their parents plan. It also includes undocumented workers who shouldn't have healthcare provided for them in the first place. The real number is likely closes to 22 million, which is still too many. The question is whether the answer is to give them free healthcare or to enable them to be able to find good paying jobs so they can afford to buy their own?
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    Sorry but I've come across multiple sources that estimate it actually EXCEEDS 48 million. I only went with that figure because it's the most widely agreed upon.

    The question is whether the answer is to give them free healthcare or to enable them to be able to find good paying jobs so they can afford to buy their own?
    I'm not sure why it has to be one or the other. In all these other countries that provide free healthcare, it's not like everybody sits around sitting on their arses all day. You can offer free healthcare and still try and create jobs and employment opportunities.
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    All caught up



    PointMan

    I think perhaps Mr. Whedon should stick to writing/directing and leave the political commentary to the well informed people.
    Joss Whedon is well-informed.

    But to be fair I'm always loathe to listen to lectures on economics and poverty from celebrities, be they conservative or liberal.
    Well, a very small percentage of the population knows much about economics (no reputable economist believes trickle down works and most economists know that Reagonimcs simply increased the deficit and debt), how the government works, etc. But people like Joss, Ben Affleck, Matt Damon, etc. do know stuff and so it’s fine that they are heard. And they aren’t bloviators like Donald Trump, Sarah Palin, most of Talk Radio, etc.

    _______________________________________________

    Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from criticism if you say something stupid.
    What did Joss say that is stupid? He’s using satire and his increased celebrity to express his position of the Romney-Ryan ticket.

    The Simpsons also did a YouTube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltCIEbLMaQg . Was that one stupid?

    ________________________________________________

    There are people who voted for Obama solely because he was black and there are also people who voted for his opposition solely because Obama was black.
    Those aren’t equivalent. Blacks voting for Obama are comparable to Catholics voting for Kennedy. It was a reason to be excited about ‘social progress’ and the nation progressing in terms of religion (with Kennedy) and race (with Obama).

    Blacks voted overwhelmingly for Clinton. Blacks generally vote Democratic.

    Anyway, Blacks aren’t being ‘racist’ by voting for Obama instead of McCain or Romney. Whites who don’t vote for Obama solely because Obama is Black are racist.

    ________________________________________________

    [Joss’s video] reminded me of the same things one would hear on the Daily show or spouted at a political rally.
    So, now you’re bashing the Daily Show ? That show is the only reason that the 9/11 first responders got that health care package. The Republicans didn’t want to give it to them. And Jon Stewart is extremely informed and that’s unquestionable.

    I didn't hear any well reasoned arguments.
    It’s a satire.

    What I did hear is someone who is very much in love with the sound of his own voice and who just loves to pat himself on the back at how clever and funny he is.
    Do you support the existence of FOX News and conservative talk radio? Glenn Beck?

    And Joss made one video. And he’s a big enough star that he didn’t have to post it on something like Funny or Die. If Joss got some people to vote, good for him.

    You can't legislate common sense.
    Yes, you can. You can legislate seatbelt laws, gun control laws, the existence of the FDA, EPA, etc.

    I do however believe that since celebrities have the ability to reach many more people than your average citizen, they have a responsibility to make sure they don't abuse that power.
    How about a billionaire spending millions, tens of millions, or even hundreds of millions to affect policy, voting, the tax code, etc.? Celebrities on average don’t have the kind of financial influence as those like the Koch brothers.

    It is a sad fact that the media in this country is very left leaning and for the most part will not hesitate to insert its bias in its "reporting". That is likely why conservatives come off looking so badly.
    First off, this is false. CBS, NBC, NYT, LA Times, Washington Post, MSNBC, the Huffington Post. Those are the left-leaning ones. Newscorp, ABC news, the Chicago Tribune, talk radio, Politico, the Drudge Report, etc. are the right-leaning ones. TimeWarner falls over itself having ‘false equivalencies’. Those who say “liberal media” really mean ‘any outlet that’s not a conservative outlet’.

    And conservatives come off looking badly because Tea Party people are winning primaries, McCain chose Sarah Palin, Mitt Romney has no convictions, Paul Ryan’s budget, etc. Also, FOX News, talk radio, etc.

    _______________________________________________

    [Regarding The Daily Show ]: For pure entertainment purposes? Sure. For serious political commentary and insight? Not so much.
    Huh? Have you watched Jon Stewart’s interviews, especially the extended online interviews? Bill Maher is also good.

    _______________________________________________

    Well it all comes down to this thing called the Constitution. In that document there is this part that says basically that if a power isn't explicitly given to the Federal government, then that power is denied them.
    Are you a constitutional scholar? Obama was a Constitutional law professor at the University of Chicago. He knows more about the Constitution than you do.

    And since there is nothing in the Constitution anywhere that gives the federal government the power to mandate healthcare, it's pretty much a constitutional violation.
    Wrong. The Federal Government has the power to tax, which is why things like Medicare and the Affordable Heath Care act are constitutional.

    Us conservatives have this wacky idea that the laws must be obeyed and that the government can't simply make them up as they go along.
    Sorry, this is extremely laughable. The Supreme Court held up the ACA, and Justice Roberts is the guy who created the Citizens United decision out of thin air.

    I doubt any of the countries with guaranteed healthcare ever had such limitations placed on their governments, which is fine if that works for you. It doesn't work for us.
    Our current health care system is a mess.

    ________________________________________________

    And yet people don't come from all over the world to Canada in order to get medical treatment.
    For those that can afford excellent health care (or can get it because they are important people like Congressman, Governors, etc.), the United States has some of the best in the world. Most in the United States cannot get the best health care. Keeping this on-topic, Joss Whedon commented on this when in BtVS S6, Buffy found out that Joyce’s medical procedures wiped out most of Joyce’s wealth outside of the Summers’ house.

    And Joss is simply much smarter about addressing the topic than Breaking Bad . Vince Gillian addresses the problems in the US Healthcare System by making Walter White a Nobel Prize winner who was somehow outsmarted out of being a co-founder and big shareholder of a huge company, was somehow not hired by a university and who somehow is merely working as a high school teacher. And then somehow Walt is too prideful to allow his wealthy former buddy to pay his medical expenses and so decides to do incredibly harmful and illegal things. Joss showed a system in which an upper middle class – possibly lower upper class – successful art gallery owner and operator got pretty much wiped out when she got brain cancer.



    tiger_fan

    Being from the south, I'm surrounded by Republicans. Heck, 99% of my family are Republicans and/or dislike Obama, but none of them have negative feelings for him because of his race or some false assumptions about his religion.
    Your family is not a random sampling of Republicans.

    I'm not denying that there are racist out there who do think that way, but lumping half of the Republican base into that category is unfair, imo.
    At one point, half of Republicans believed that Obama was a Muslim and at one point, half believed he wasn’t born in the United States. I can’t think of a reasonable explanation for this OTHER than racism and/or ignorance.

    Heck, Friday on my FB account I saw a few democratic friends discussing how Mormonism was a cult and I thought that was a stupid assumption to make against religion in question as I did when Muslim was used negatively against Obama.
    This is completely silly and is endemic of the “false equivalency” nonsense that goes on in the mainstream media. Romney is a Mormon. Obama is not a Muslim. So, there’s simply nothing comparable to start. Secondly, Jesus didn’t visit America during his life and the Native Americans certainly never knew of Jesus until the Spanish and such told them about Jesus.

    And honestly, I have never been a fan of celebrities endorsements. By Democrats or Republicans. To me its too much of a form of peer pressure and propaganda rather than informing because far too many people will only vote or think a certain way because this "cool person" said so. Whether its George Clooney or Clint Eastwood, they all make me roll my eyes. I'd much rather see celebrities encourage people to vote and to research the candidates to make an inform decision on there own.
    Most Americans would fail the US Citizenship test. Pew Research has shown time-and-again how uninformed Americans are about politics and their government. Also, celebrity endorsements haven’t been effective since I’ve been alive (I’m now 28).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    Are you a constitutional scholar? Obama was a Constitutional law professor at the University of Chicago. He knows more about the Constitution than you do.

    Wrong. The Federal Government has the power to tax, which is why things like Medicare and the Affordable Heath Care act are constitutional.
    Honestly, there is too much nonsense here to respond to all of it, so I'll stick with this one. The Constitution was designed so that even the common man would be able to understand his rights. This idea that one needs to be a Constitutional scholar to understand the Constitution is one of the examples of what has gone wrong in our nation.

    And the healthcare law is not a tax. A tax is by definition something a person has to pay as a result of a given action. A tax does not by itself provide a service, rather a tax is typically the result of an individual taking advantage of a service. Forcing people to by health insurance or pay a fine is forcing them to buy a product.
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    Funny video is funny. If the world had more satire and fewer official political campaign ads, I'd be a happy bunny.


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    PointMan

    Are you a constitutional scholar? Obama was a Constitutional law professor at the University of Chicago. He knows more about the Constitution than you do.

    Wrong. The Federal Government has the power to tax, which is why things like Medicare and the Affordable Heath Care act are constitutional.


    Honestly, there is too much nonsense here to respond to all of it,
    None of that is nonsense. You aren’t a Constitutional scholar and everything else quoted is also fact.

    The Constitution was designed so that even the common man would be able to understand his rights.
    Okay, you obviously don’t know much about the founding fathers. The people at the Constitutional Convention pretty much only wanted people like them to be able to vote. The Constitution is written at a level that only educated smart people would be able to understand it. James Madison was a genius and one of the smartest people in the country. And the guy who most defended the Constitution and the prime author of the Federalist Papers – Alexander Hamilton – was also a genius and one of the smartest people in the country. Have you read the Federalist Papers?

    This idea that one needs to be a Constitutional scholar to understand the Constitution is one of the examples of what has gone wrong in our nation.
    Huh?

    And the healthcare law is not a tax.
    You did not deliver the majority opinion of the United States Supreme Court. Chief Justice John Roberts said the individual mandate is a tax and so that’s what it is.

    A tax is by definition something a person has to pay as a result of a given action.
    Medicare is a tax. There was zero legal basis to call the individual mandate illegal.

    Forcing people to by health insurance or pay a fine is forcing them to buy a product.
    Again, auto insurance laws are legal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    PointMan

    None of that is nonsense. You aren’t a Constitutional scholar and everything else quoted is also fact.

    Okay, you obviously don’t know much about the founding fathers. The people at the Constitutional Convention pretty much only wanted people like them to be able to vote. The Constitution is written at a level that only educated smart people would be able to understand it. James Madison was a genius and one of the smartest people in the country. And the guy who most defended the Constitution and the prime author of the Federalist Papers – Alexander Hamilton – was also a genius and one of the smartest people in the country. Have you read the Federalist Papers?
    You are the one who obviously hasn't read your history. Our founding fathers came from a country that is the way you describe, and they very much wanted that to be avoided. There is a reason that everyone was given a right to vote, excluding black people which is a different discussion altogether. Them being really smart has nothing to do with it. Liberals are the ones whose intellectuals typically look down on other people.


    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    You did not deliver the majority opinion of the United States Supreme Court. Chief Justice John Roberts said the individual mandate is a tax and so that’s what it is.
    Your mistake here is assuming that our laws come to us from the government. Our founders knew better. If the government decides what rights you have then you effectively have NO rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    Medicare is a tax. There was zero legal basis to call the individual mandate illegal.

    Again, auto insurance laws are legal.
    You don't have to buy auto insurance if you don't drive. A citizens only option to avoid this tax is to not be alive. The government is making us buy a product.
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    I guess if you're rich then who cares if others cant afford healthcare right? Its not directly affecting you or your family. You're perfectly comfortable so....people who cant afford it, put up and shut up...then die. Its lucky these people weren't born into poor families eh?
    Last edited by BuffySpike; 13-11-12 at 11:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuffySpike View Post
    I guess if you're rich then who cares if others cant afford healthcare right? Its not directly affecting you or your family. You're perfectly comfortable so....people who cant afford it, put up and shut up...then die. Its lucky these people weren't born into poor families eh?
    I wish everyone could afford healthcare, I really do. People do not however have a right to healthcare. The system that has been set up is unsustainable. People are going to be discovering that soon enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointMan View Post
    I wish everyone could afford healthcare, I really do. People do not however have a right to healthcare. The system that has been set up is unsustainable. People are going to be discovering that soon enough.
    People don't have a right to free healthcare? That kind of talk sounds very similar to a lot of third world countries' policies on healthcare, they have to be like that because they are poor. I guess this all seems a bit weird to me because I come from a place where free healthcare does work on a daily basis. It is perfectly possible for America, the most powerful nation in the world to do it as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointMan View Post
    I wish everyone could afford healthcare, I really do. People do not however have a right to healthcare. The system that has been set up is unsustainable. People are going to be discovering that soon enough.
    I probably shouldn't but I have to ask because healthcare is something I feel strongly about. Why do you feel this way?
    Why in your opinion do people not have a right to health care?
    Because as far as I am concerned health care is (or should be in any case) a basic human right/a basic human need that should be made available and affordable to everyone. In my county the situation around health care is not optimal but we have a system where good basic health care is accessible to all and I feel that is normal. Now I am not talking about a right to free healthcare but I do feel everyone should have a right to health care being available

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    Yes that comment made me curious as well, especially because it's included in article 25 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights;

    "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection."


    Sounds to me like a big group of countries (including the USA) agreed that it is a right.

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    here's a world map of free healthcare..America is on par with Africa & India etc...some of the most poverty stricken places on earth.

    http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.c...hcareworld.jpg
    Bonehead, carrot top, shirty & dope
    the nonsensical vocabulary of Buffy and Spike

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    MikeB (27-11-12)

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