View Poll Results: Was Willow and Co. in the right to resurrect Buffy?

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  • Yes.

    10 23.81%
  • Yes, only if they knew she was in hell.

    11 26.19%
  • Yes, even if they assumed she could have been in Heaven.

    2 4.76%
  • Yes, because Buffy was needed for the slaying. The Buffybot is no substitute for the real Buffy.

    2 4.76%
  • No.

    21 50.00%
  • No; only because the Buffybot, Spike, and the Scoobies were handling the slaying.

    0 0%
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Thread: Was Willow and Co. in the right to resurrect Buffy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post
    This is exactly how I feel. Buffy is in a strange position in S6 but also in S7-8 where she thinks that life is horrible and undeserved punishment for herself but good and required to be lived fully by others. I sort of get why she feels that way but it is very self-centered and lazy and wrong. And since the story is told from Buffy's POV, there's a strange situation where I feel that the author wants us to believe that Buffy is condemned to hell by living but not feel that way about the other characters.

    I feel like the story wants us to believe that Buffy was entitled to a beautiful release from being concerned about her friends or parenting Dawn or figuring out jobs or higher education and it sucks that she had to get back to that. However at the end of S6, I don't think we're supposed to decide that if Tara got into heaven that Tara was greatly privileged and lucky to no longer have to wonder what she'll do as a career after college or care for Dawn or start a new relationship with Willow.
    How should I put this. I think I don't disagree with you that strongly on the specifics of what you say, but I interpret it differently enough that I'm basically okay with the story. What I will say is that I think that the story basically IS that Buffy's life, as it is in season five, is basically untenable and that without her finding a new framework to live in, she is going to be unhappy to be alive. That framework is trying to be The Hero in every way. The contradiction in The Gift does break her. She could kill Angel and still believe that the world was a good place because, well, Angel was a vampire, and he was her first really devastating kill, and so on. Dawn is both the representation of humanity she has to save AND the person she has to kill to allow the rest of humanity to live. That is basically psychologically irreconcilable. She kills herself because that's preferable to having to decide between those two extremes. Buffy would have, I think, let Dawn jump in The Gift in the end, and it would have destroyed her. Would she have recovered? I'd say maybe. Maybe not. There are people who have gone through worse, but some people have gone through less and been destroyed by that too.

    Saying that Buffy chooses to live for Dawn is, I think, not quite right. I think it's she realizes she can live WITH Dawn. She still centres her desire for life on Dawn. But it's no longer a case of protecting Dawn from the horrors of the world, but empowering Dawn to deal with its benefits. The issue in The Gift is centrally about the impossibility of protecting both Dawn and the world. The way Grave points the way, and Chosen pays it off, is to reconfigure her role as (potential) tutor so that she doesn't have to be the sole protector. Actually, Dawn was already partly there in The Gift, willing to sacrifice herself to protect the world, but Buffy wasn't yet able to deal with that.

    I think that her realization that Dawn can be an agent is the key thing that transforms her life. It's also the finale where the world keeps turning even though Buffy doesn't stop the Big Bad. Willow stops herself; Xander talks her down. Dawn can handle a sword. Execution problems, probably (I would say that they are minor, but I also see the same humanism that Norwie sees and that overwhelms the flaws for me). But certainly, it's a stepping stone to Buffy realizing she doesn't have to do everything; and the reason that Heaven is so attractive is that it's not actually really bearable to be in a world where Buffy shoulders the burden alone. It's not really true that Buffy had to shoulder the burden alone in s5 either, but Buffy definitely constructs it that way (especially when she basically believes that she could have saved her mother had she gotten there in time, and that her deciding for a brief moment to give up trying to save Dawn killed her in WotW).

    Now. I do actually think that in S7-8 Buffy is still not really that much enjoying life. I think it's probably true that this undermines the humanistic message, doesn't do enough to combat the possible negative messages from her "I wish I were dead" phase. The reason I still like it is that it feels like my experience too. I do believe life is worth living. I also don't feel it a whole lot of the time. I think that the show's psychology and thematics are often at odds, especially later on. I think that's part of what makes it interesting. Psychologically, I basically buy that Buffy does know on some level that life is worth living, but another big part of her can't quite embrace life, because she's still too scarred by it. So it comes in fits and starts. That is against the thematics of the piece, but it fits with Buffy psychologically. And ultimately I still take comfort in that, maybe because I can never quite get myself to the place I want to be and so find something worth embracing in the fact that Buffy can't either (or, in the parallel story, that Willow can't quite see the resurrection as a good either and has her own ambivalence-about-life issues as a result).

    Of course, I'm not Buffy: her life sucks more than mine does. Dawn's life sucks way more than mine. Pretty much everyone in the show's life sucks more than mine, etc.

    It is a minor distinction. It felt like Doyle would have felt similar sadness about missing out on life as Jenny.
    Maybe. Well, yeah, I think Doyle wasn't as far into "I don't know how to live in this world if these are the choices" as Buffy was.

    Anyway, wading into your comment for norwie (I feel like most of what I said earlier applies):

    Buffy said it in Grave- she'll live for others because being virtuous and the need to act virtuous in front of others is hammered into her and the need to parent and protect Dawn was literally hammered into her by the Monks. But Buffy liked the peace and isolation of heaven more than the dynamism and interpersonalness of Earth. If the Monks didn't give Dawn to Buffy and Buffy died and went to heaven after falling in another battle, Buffy would have committed a fully selfish suicide and that's a fact.
    No, that's not a fact! Because Buffy's overwhelming despair was centred on Dawn. Remove Dawn, and there is no The Gift-level despair. There is probably despair eventually because of Riley's departure and Joyce's death. But that's not the same as Buffy having to make a choice between a sister who is ALL THREE OF a construct designed to appeal to all her protective instincts, a literal duplicate of parts of herself that she loves and cherishes, and a person in her own right, and the whole world which she sees represented in that sister.

    The problem that she has in season six is that while the threat of Glory coming and killing Dawn is gone, Buffy knows now that this is the type of world where people are asked to make that kind of choice. The trauma of that choice still reverberates. Dawn's in trouble again (must be Tuesday) but she can't bear to let herself feel her love for Dawn, or take responsibility for Dawn again because of what it leads to. Since Dawn represents the world to her, she can't deal with the world either. She's still bitter that this is that type of world. But if she hadn't been forced into that choice, she wouldn't hate the world so. The eventual resolution is that she can love Dawn as a potential equal rather than as a victim to be shielded. That resolution wouldn't be necessary if she didn't have a Dawn whom she loved more than the world itself.

    (That she finds out Dawn can be a partner causes its own problems, because once she convinces herself enough that Dawn can take care of herself, she actually stops taking care of Dawn and focuses on the world again, which is one of those twisty ironies I think the show does well but so sometimes goes counter to what the thematics would suggest. )

    Dawn is what drives Buffy into despair AND what pulls her out. The way Buffy would get to the same level of despair is if she had to make a similar choice with someone else she loved. That Dawn helps her out is because she loves Dawn so much; but that's also the reason she got dragged in.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post
    Anyway, I don't take the word of talking hamburgers, talking cats or talking eyes as gospel. Buffy was dead enough in Prophecy Girl for it to affect the slayer line i.e. creating two slayers. I don't believe the Eye until it's explained what made the resurrection different than the CPR.
    Yeah, that. I mean, the "instability in the slayer line" that actually had real consequences besides What The Eye Says was Prophecy Girl. Plus, the First was already starting to do evil souled-vamp-manipulating stuff as of Amends.
    Last edited by Local Maximum; 11-07-12 at 11:37 PM.

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    Was the episode called Bargaining because the scoobies were in the Bargaining stage of grief rather than the Acceptance stage?

    Thats why they resurrected her?
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    I think that Buffy's heaven was the Normal Again-verse, where she was kept on anti-depressants.

    BUFFY: My friends.
    DOCTOR: That's right. Last summer, when you had a momentary awakening, it was them that pulled you back in.
    (Normal Again)

    So Willow was right to bring her back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    I thought it was pretty obvious that Anya was struggling to come up with an excuse to get out of the spell. Yes it was a silly reason, and it was meant to be humorous, but it was Anya getting nervous and wanting to back out. *Both* Xander and Anya reacted with extreme hesitance when Willow revealed she wanted to do the spell the very next night. That's why Willow says "Guys I need you on board here" not "Xander I need you on bored here." The conversation doesn't make sense unless she's addressing both of them, sparked by their clear discomfort at the idea. The shooting script even says that they both "sit up. Fear and adreneline pumping."
    I think we're having an issue communicating. Anya was uncomfortable about the spell but she was voting for it. She got the last remaining Urn of Osiris, she shut down Xander's objections. Anya was uncomfortable and kinda squirelly about things so she comes up with silly reasons to avoid the spell like the Discovery channel having monkeys but when push comes to shove, she firmly voted for the spell once she procured the last remaining Urn of Osiris. Xander was the only one arguing with Willow right up until Willow, again doesn't "guilt-trip" him, but convinces him that resurrecting Buffy is the right thing to do. Willow addressed everyone's discomfort with, "Guys, I need you on board here" and in particular, discomfort that could be changed minds because of Xander, but Anya and Tara were speaking in favor of the resurrection in that meeting.

    On the contrary, I think it's very DELIBERATE writing to show they were out of their depth, being reckless, and not thinking clearly because their desperation to get Buffy back.
    The writers should have shown that differently. Frankly, I think they got the message that the Scoobs were being reckless and desperate to get Buffy back without making them all seem like halfwits in not realizing that buried people need to be dug out to start living on land.

    "Yelling?" Aside from Giles in Flooded, when did they ever "yell" at her? When Anya says "I think WE screwed it up" she wasn't yelling, she wasn't even talking specifically to Willow or trying to pin the blame on one person. Heck, when Buffy ascends the stairs and goes to bed the gang all share a nervous look of concern and Willow takes it upon herself to say "what? She's fine! She used to go to bed all the time!" They didn't even open their mouths, let alone "yell" at her.
    You have your facts wrong. Anya yelled at Willow at the start of Afterlife before they even got to the house:

    ANYA: I think we screwed it up. She's broken.
    WILLOW: No! She's not broken! She's just .... disoriented from being ... tormented in some hell dimension. Probably tortured and ... It's like, we don't even know how much time has passed there for her, uh, possibly years. That's not something you just get over. Oh my God. What if she never gets over it?
    ANYA: And you think of this now?!!
    TARA: What are you thinking, Willow? That-that she's ... that she's not right, or, or maybe like, dangerous?
    Boom- the tone is set. Willow admits her fears publicly, Anya starts yelling at Willow because Willow voiced her fears, chaos ensues. Which is definitely one of the reasons why Willow jammed hard on the, "Put on your happy face" once the gang got into Buffy's house and saw Buffy but unconvincingly because Tara could tell that Willow was worried in their next scene in their bedroom.

    I never denied Willow had doubts or truly believed Buffy was fine. Given how much she overcompensated that was fairly obvious, even without her admitting it in her safe space with Tara.
    You said:

    It's not that I expected the Scoobies to have every contingency plan already set in place. It's just annoyance that it appears they never even *considered* a lot of it.

    I can understand being forced to use Joyce's life insurance money to fund the house but at the same time it is yet more evidence of how shortsighted the Scoobies were regarding Buffy's resurrection. All they could think about was bringing her back but they hadn't seriously considered what the repercussions of that would be if they actually succeeded.

    It sounds to me like you attacked the Scoobies for not even considering the repercussions and then changing your position once I bring up concrete evidence of the Scoobies considering the repercussions and NOT reassuring themselves.

    I would agree with a statement that Willow was defensive in public and falsely gave impressions that the resurrection went better than she thought...because it's so clear that Willow was worried about Buffy's statement of mind, both before Buffy lied that she was in hell and afterwards.

    I really, really hope Xander doesn't believe that it'd only take a week to get over an eternal hell experience, so he must be lying to himself.
    I mean, it took Angel several weeks to mostly be back to his old self and everyone thinks that Buffy is stronger and more emotionally resilient than Angel. Any guess on how long it would take to recover from hell is a guess that is talking out of its ass.

    Again, the only person to ever yell at Willow was Giles in Flooded. And to be fair, she started raising her voice at him first.
    I already proved above that Anya yelled at Willow. And Giles name-calls and yells through the following lines before Willow starts raising her voice:

    GILES: (over his shoulder) You're a very stupid girl.
    WILLOW: What? Giles...
    GILES: (where Giles starts yelling) Do you have any idea what you've done? The forces you've harnessed, the lines you've crossed?
    WILLOW: I thought you'd be ... impressed, or, or something.
    GILES: Oh, don't worry, you've ... made a very deep impression. Of everyone here ... you were the one I trusted most to respect the forces of nature.
    WILLOW: Are you saying you don't trust me?
    GILES: (intensely) Think what you've done to Buffy.
    WILLOW (where Willow starts raising her voice): I brought her back!
    GILES: At incredible risk!
    In some ways, Willow is a better gal than I. Once Giles got out his, "You're a very stupid girl" after his abandonment and his need to name-call before discussing anything, I'd be matching him "*******" for every stupid girl and *****tard" for every "rank amateur". I wouldn't have threatened Giles, though. Because threatening folks is wrong and you shouldn't do it and because Willow should have guessed that Giles was going to be racking up his frequent flier miles very soon and would thus be irrelevant.

    When Tara puts it out there that fate brought the biker demons to Sunnydale she explicitly state to "stop US." She also says "maybe WE really were messing with forces WE had no right to."
    And by us, Tara means Willow.

    TARA: Maybe it wasn't supposed to. I mean, those demons showing up at the exact wrong time? Maybe we really were in over our heads. Invoking forces that we have no right to. Maybe the fates sent down all that destruction on us to stop us. I mean...
    WILLOW: You mean, maybe it was my fault.
    TARA: No. No.
    Tara's "no, no" is very rather half-hearted.

    Anya says "I think WE screwed it up" and "I don't think WE should have brought Buffy back. *I* knew it was going to end badly *I* should have said something." At no point do they try and pin this on Willow.
    I agree that Anya took some responsibility. However, Willow takes full responsibility in Tabula Rasa and NO ONE jumps in with, "Hey, we were all there too" or "We signed on" or "I don't think I was being that selfish and I don't think you were either Willow or" or "Hey, we were all selfish". And then, Willow apologizes to Buffy in Tabula Rasa and NO ONE jumps in with their own self blame or anything.

    Anya was literally the only person to to take the blame.

    Willow takes a defensive stance because she assumed the role as leader. Because she was adamant that nobody was allowed to change their minds. Because she kept things about the spell from everyone, even Tara. Because she called the shots and because she used her magic. The characters could have quite easily placed more blame on her, in all honesty they wouldn't have been entirely wrong to do so, but they never do.
    And I believe that Anya/Tara/Xander squirelled their way out by never admitting the slightest complicity when it counted- after they found out that Buffy in Heaven. Willow was the one using her magic and laying her body and soul to Osiris to play with to get Buffy back- but that doesn't mean that she should be only one to get recriminations.

    Anya/Tara/Xander all have years of demon-fighting and research and working with Willow under their belts. They knew that they were petitioning Osiris and Anya was the one that ordered the crucial urn. As you've mentioned frequently above, they knew more than enough to be uncomfortable with the idea even though they voted for it. So, Willow didn't tell them about killing the deer and Anya and Xander about the tests that she'd be subjected to. They still had enough to make an informed decision and thus, enough to be responsible.

    If Anya/Tara/Xander were traders in Bernie Madoff's firm and they knew everything except for two pieces of damning information like they knew a Ponzi scheme was doing on but they didn't know it had been going on since the beginning, or they didn't know Madoff was stealing from charities as well they would still be legally responsible.

    Although, I am loathe to use examples like Madoff because I think the resurrection was basically the right thing to do despite its problems and I think certainly Xander and then, Anya and Tara to a smaller extent were motivated by love for Buffy. It's just the hot-potato-of-responsibility only occurs when something bad happens. And I think the Scoobies all felt guilt about the resurrection but no one voiced responsibility except Anya and ALL OF THEM skated when it was the immediate aftermath of Buffy declaring she was in heaven and the most difficult time to admit responsibility.

    One of the tragedies of S6 is that EVERYONE never questions whether they should feel guilty or treat Big Magic like a pariah just because Buffy is suicidal and liked being in a Isolation Chamber of Peace more than any of them or anything you can get out of life. Victory has a thousand fathers and defeat is an orphan and all that. Everyone would have been happier if they had confidence in their original supposition that they gave Buffy a wonderful gift in continuing her life because life is a wonderful gift instead of devouring each other with guilt and sadness and Blaming the Willow. Instead they (because the text is doing the same) indulge Buffy's hatred of them and hatred of life as an accurate reaction to the facts instead of the mental illness and character flaw that it is.
    Last edited by Dipstick; 06-08-12 at 09:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post
    I think we're having an issue communicating. Anya was uncomfortable about the spell but she was voting for it. She got the last remaining Urn of Osiris, she shut down Xander's objections. Anya was uncomfortable and kinda squirelly about things so she comes up with silly reasons to avoid the spell like the Discovery channel having monkeys but when push comes to shove, she firmly voted for the spell once she procured the last remaining Urn of Osiris. Xander was the only one arguing with Willow right up until Willow, again doesn't "guilt-trip" him, but convinces him that resurrecting Buffy is the right thing to do. Willow addressed everyone's discomfort with, "Guys, I need you on board here" and in particular, discomfort that could be changed minds because of Xander, but Anya and Tara were speaking in favor of the resurrection in that meeting.

    We were definitely having issues with communicating because our interpretations of the scene are far closer than I had originally thought. However, I still don't see a great deal of difference between Xander and Anya and feel they were on the same page when it came to the resurrection. I wouldn’t give Anya the sole responsibility for getting the Urn of Osiris because it appeared Xander was right there with her every step of the way, even getting her to bargain for a Limited Edition Backstreet Boys Lunchbox on his behalf. Anya may have been the one to use the Magic Box supplier but it’s not like Xander was unaware of this or didn’t stand idly by whilst Anya obtained the urn. It still doesn’t mean that when push came to shove he wasn’t having serious doubts about the spell so I’m not convinced it says anything about Anya’s feelings, either.

    And I just don’t think Anya set out to deliberately undermine Xander in anyway throughout that scene. She has a habit of correcting people but I chalk that more up to her social awkwardness and blunt-nature than trying to deliberately pull the rug out from under him. If he was wrong about Zombire mythology then she’d correct him. If he made Willow boss then she’d point that out too. It’s in her nature to point of inaccuracies in the things people say, regardless of who said them or why. I think it tells us very little about her feelings on the spell.

    You have your facts wrong. Anya yelled at Willow at the start of Afterlife before they even got to the house.

    Boom- the tone is set. Willow admits her fears publicly, Anya starts yelling at Willow because Willow voiced her fears, chaos ensues. Which is definitely one of the reasons why Willow jammed hard on the, "Put on your happy face" once the gang got into Buffy's house and saw Buffy but unconvincingly because Tara could tell that Willow was worried in their next scene in their bedroom.
    How can that be the thing that "set the tone" when Willow already shut Anya down once BEFORE she even says that -- "I think we screwed it up. She's broken"/ "No! She's not broken!" Surely, if Anya is then guilty of "yelling" at Willow soon after then Willow was also guilty of yelling at people, first I might add, when she clearly raises her tone at Anya here? Personally, I wouldn't classify anything about this exchange as "yelling." They all have a slightly raised tone because they're nervous and frightened as hell as they rush through the burning streets.

    You said:

    It's not that I expected the Scoobies to have every contingency plan already set in place. It's just annoyance that it appears they never even *considered* a lot of it.

    I can understand being forced to use Joyce's life insurance money to fund the house but at the same time it is yet more evidence of how shortsighted the Scoobies were regarding Buffy's resurrection. All they could think about was bringing her back but they hadn't seriously considered what the repercussions of that would be if they actually succeeded.

    It sounds to me like you attacked the Scoobies for not even considering the repercussions and then changing your position once I bring up concrete evidence of the Scoobies considering the repercussions and NOT reassuring themselves.
    You're conflating two totally different things I was talking about. When I talked about the Scoobies not considering the ramifications I was talking about PRIOR to doing the spell. That’s not at all the same thing as them realising AFTERWARDS that Buffy is clearly traumatised and then trying to overcompensate by insisting she’s fine when it’s clear that a) she isn’t and, b) deep down they can see that.

    I already proved above that Anya yelled at Willow. And Giles name-calls and yells through the following lines before Willow starts raising her voice:
    I think we have two very different definitions of yelling. I rewatched the scene and Giles whispers, albeit in a very aggressive way, the lines that you bolded. He certainly doesn't "yell" them. I'd describe it more as a "hiss" as Giles tries to keep his voice down but is clearly maddened by Willow's arrogance.


    And by us, Tara means Willow.



    Tara's "no, no" is very rather half-hearted.
    That's Willow's interpretation of Tara's statement and nothing more. Willow feels more responsible for the spell and thus, she blames herself for anything that might have gone wrong. That's not Tara's problem and I'd hardly call her reply "half-hearted." She says "No, no" gently and then pulls Willow in close to comfort her.

    I agree that Anya took some responsibility. However, Willow takes full responsibility in Tabula Rasa and NO ONE jumps in with, "Hey, we were all there too" or "We signed on" or "I don't think I was being that selfish and I don't think you were either Willow or" or "Hey, we were all selfish". And then, Willow apologizes to Buffy in Tabula Rasa and NO ONE jumps in with their own self blame or anything.
    Again, that's Willow taking more personal responsibility for the spell than anybody else. Tara actually says "we have to stop obsessing about what WE did" so, once more, nobody is singling out Willow as deserving extra blame. The only time Willow ever gets singled out is when Buffy lies to them all about how grateful she was and Tara tries to get a little extra credit for Willow (“It was Willow, she knew what to do”) because she knows it meant a lot to Willow to see Buffy thankful. And judging by Willow's expression Tara did absolutely the right thing. But when it comes to *blame* nobody tries to pin it all on Willow.

    If Anya/Tara/Xander were traders in Bernie Madoff's firm and they knew everything except for two pieces of damning information like they knew a Ponzi scheme was doing on but they didn't know it had been going on since the beginning, or they didn't know Madoff was stealing from charities as well they would still be legally responsible.
    Of course. I've already expressed anger towards both Xander and Anya for agreeing to a spell that they didn't know the full details of. I'm not trying to let them off the hook whatsoever and that's the whole point of what I've been criticising them for.

    Instead they (because the text is doing the same) indulge Buffy's hatred of them and hatred of life as an accurate reaction to the facts instead of the mental illness and character flaw that it is.
    No. What the text does is respect depression and the person who suffers from it rather than condemns them for it, judges their feelings, or tries to point out how they're wrong, wrong, wrong to feel the way they do. Any story that sets out to explore depression only to point out how it’s an “inaccurate” way to feel and a “flaw” is disgusting and really unhelpful. The story respects what Buffy is feeling at all times, as it should, whilst it follows her journey throughout the season of slowly healing from her experience, finding her inner strength, and appreciating the beauty the world has to offer.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 08-08-12 at 08:27 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    We were definitely having issues with communicating because our interpretations of the scene are far closer than I had originally thought. However, I still don't see a great deal of difference between Xander and Anya and feel they were on the same page when it came to the resurrection. I wouldn’t give Anya the sole responsibility for getting the Urn of Osiris because it appeared Xander was right there with her every step of the way, even getting her to bargain for a Limited Edition Backstreet Boys Lunchbox on his behalf.
    I see a big difference between Xander and Anya on the issue. First, we don't know whether Xander got Anya to bargain for the Backstreet Boys Lunchbox so much as wanted one and Anya knew about it. Anya describes her procurement of the Urn as- *she* looked through every magic supplier, *she* found it on E-Bay, *she* negotiated with the desert gnome.

    Second, Xander is the one that urges Willow to apply the brakes on this spell. He intones that raising the dead is serious stuff. He argues right through to the end, to the point that Willow specifies that she needs Xander.

    Anya displays discomfort with the idea in lines like the discovery channels program that night but the text implies that she was assigned to get the Urn. *Xander* refuses to take Willow's orders to hep resurrect Buffy and *Anya* followed by *Tara* remind Xander that he'd better fall in line because Willow is the Boss. And while Anya is the type to correct on zombie mythology, how often does Anya shut down Xander's objections because Willow is the Boss? Hmm? Particularly in their vague power structure that still should allow for plenty of dissent against Willow/

    Anya was very uncomfortable with the notion of raising the dead, like Tara and heck, like Willow. However, Anya's essential vote was in to resurrect. Xander, however, was uncomfortable and voting "no" right up until Willow drew the compelling scenario that Buffy is trapped in a hell dimension.

    How can that be the thing that "set the tone" when Willow already shut Anya down once BEFORE she even says that -- "I think we screwed it up. She's broken"/ "No! She's not broken!" Surely, if Anya is then guilty of "yelling" at Willow soon after then Willow was also guilty of yelling at people, first I might add, when she clearly raises her tone at Anya here? Personally, I wouldn't classify anything about this exchange as "yelling." They all have a slightly raised tone because they're nervous and frightened as hell as they rush through the burning streets.
    Willow defensively, with a raised note of defensiveness and protectiveness of Buffy, says that Buffy isn't broken. And then in Willow's next four sentences, she voices her thoughts aloud that Buffy could be broken from a hell dimension and "oh, god, what if she never gets over it." Then, Anya angrily yells- NOT with a raised note of defensiveness but with pure anger at Willow- ANYA: And you think of this now?!!.

    That directly contradicts your statement:

    "Yelling?" Aside from Giles in Flooded, when did they ever "yell" at her? When Anya says "I think WE screwed it up" she wasn't yelling, she wasn't even talking specifically to Willow or trying to pin the blame on one person.

    In this very scene just before the Scoobies enter Casa de Summers, Anya angrily yelled at Willow in a manner of charging Willow with responsibility for not taking into account that Buffy could be broken from a hell dimension in her decision making process before resurrecting Buffy. Dem's fightin' words.

    Anya's statement- "ANYA: And you think of this now?!!" is troubling for three reasons: (1) Anya angrily yells at Willow when Willow is just trying to figure out how traumatized Buffy is and having an honest emotional reaction to that; (2) it's disturbing that Anya is charging Willow solely with the responsibility of not considering whether Buffy would be disturbed and (3) IMO, fear of the resurrected person being too traumatized from hell to be a palatable companion on earth is a piss poor reason to to not resurrect someone. Whether Buffy is too traumatized from hell to be palatable or easy to deal with shouldn't have been a factor in the Scoobies' decision to resurrect.

    You're conflating two totally different things I was talking about. When I talked about the Scoobies not considering the ramifications I was talking about PRIOR to doing the spell. That’s not at all the same thing as them realising AFTERWARDS that Buffy is clearly traumatised and then trying to overcompensate by insisting she’s fine when it’s clear that a) she isn’t and, b) deep down they can see that.
    But you were accusing the Scoobies of not considering repercussions after the spell. You wrote over on the Mark Watches Thread:

    It's not that I expected the Scoobies to have every contingency plan already set in place. It's just annoyance that it appears they never even *considered* a lot of it. And then you have Willow shutting down anyone who dared say aloud that they might have screwed up or that Buffy might not be ok, which isn't helpful to Buffy and is more about Willow reassuring herself that she made the right decision. And that's not even taking account the rather ignorant and/or arrogant attitudes expressed by both Willow and Xander at various points. Namely;

    "Risk of what? Making her deader!?"

    And;

    "Give it a week and she'll be our little Buffster again"

    The first is just sheer arrogance and Buffy's spirit and body deserved more respect. I dont know how much of that arrogance factored into how Willow planned this all out, but it's upsetting it's there at all. The latter is nothing more than ignorance and it does make me feel badly that she's thrust back into this world, he'll or no hell, but she had those opinions/expectations/rationalizations to contend with.



    You are accusing Willow and Xander, at least, of ignorance and disrespect for Buffy's body and spirit in statements made after the resurrection. My argument is that we have textual examples of all of the Scoobies doing the difficult work of considering the repercussions of the spell post-spell.

    Even the argument that the Scoobies considered no repercussions before the spell is inaccurate. Anya/Tara/Xander were all uncomfortable with the dark nature of the spell. Willow clearly knew that this spell could kill her and would certainly take a dark toll on her. Willow makes herself the locus of all darkness in the spell- the one to kill the deer, asking Osiris to test *her*. However, I'd agree that the Scoobies were focused on performing the spell successfully instead of pondering how Buffy would feel about it. The Scoobies, like every family member of a coma patient or patient who needs defibrillators to start up their heart, assumed that Buffy's state of mind would be that she would want to live and they needed to make that happen.

    I think we have two very different definitions of yelling. I rewatched the scene and Giles whispers, albeit in a very aggressive way, the lines that you bolded. He certainly doesn't "yell" them. I'd describe it more as a "hiss" as Giles tries to keep his voice down but is clearly maddened by Willow's arrogance.
    Giles starts out by hissing, "You're a very stupid girl". He hisses a few more lines and then starts to yell, "Think what you've done to Buffy."

    Either way, I don't get why this is like pulling teeth. You said:

    Again, the only person to ever yell at Willow was Giles in Flooded. And to be fair, she started raising her voice at him first.

    I say Giles was the first to raise his voice on the line, "Think what you've done to Buffy". Either way, Giles was fixin' for a fight with Willow the minute he hissed, "You're a very stupid girl". There's no "fairness to Giles". He wanted a fight or at to get to yell and insult Willow and maybe have her cry or something. He did NOT want an amicable or calm discussion at any point in the kitchen.

    Willow lets Giles get out several lines of attacks before she starts raising her voice defensively with "I brought her back!". Then, Willow tries defensively but calmly discussing for four more of her lines even though all of Giles's responses are viciously mean. Willow doesn't cross the border into the land of "Anger In Kind" until, "I wasn't lucky. I was amazing. And how would you know? You weren't even there."

    That's Willow's interpretation of Tara's statement and nothing more. Willow feels more responsible for the spell and thus, she blames herself for anything that might have gone wrong. That's not Tara's problem and I'd hardly call her reply "half-hearted." She says "No, no" gently and then pulls Willow in close to comfort her.
    Tara's behavior is just so weird. Tara said that by resurrecting Buffy, they essentially unleashed the Biker Gang, threw Sunnydale into ruin, put Dawn in danger, and couldn't even finish the spell to get Buffy. The heaviest of accusations. Not only that, Amber Benson delivers the line as a line of reproach to Willow to get her to think about how wrong her idea to resurrect Buffy was.

    Willow takes all of those accusations on her shoulders and starts blaming herself. It is just so strange that Tara could see Willow absorbing such a heavy load of guilt without clarifying herself. "Will, I didn't mean that. We all know that demons threatening Sunnydale don't need a resurrection-engraved invitation to come in" or "Honey, we all thought that resurrecting Buffy was the best of bad choices." Instead, Tara just lets Willow walk into the big fight believing that this is all Willow's fault.

    I have to connect that weirdness to what I perceive as a larger issue on how Tara makes points. Tara expresses a deeply held hostile belief that she's been nursing for awhile and then when someone challenges her on it or Tara can see how saying that made her sound like a heel, Tara retreats with no clarification or apology for her first statement so the bad thought is just hanging out there. See Family and Tough Love. Tara realized that her line in Bargaining Part II made her sound like a heel so she hugged Willow a little but Tara didn't want to apologize or clarify because she *did* want to leave Willow with the impression that Willow rained down misery so Willow would never stick a magical toe out of line again.

    Again, that's Willow taking more personal responsibility for the spell than anybody else. Tara actually says "we have to stop obsessing about what WE did" so, once more, nobody is singling out Willow as deserving extra blame.
    Tara says that "we" have to stop obsessing on a line entirely about how they need to relieve themselves of guilt and stop pondering what they did. That's what you define as taking personal responsibility for the spell????? Something tells me that if Willow said something like, "we have to stop obsessing about what we did", you and other fans would pillory her for it as avoiding culpability for her actions.

    And again, Willow makes the first and last public apology in Tabula Rasa to Buffy for tearing her out of heaven. (I think we can take Willow's comments in Anywhere But Here as an apology too but that wasn't public.) Buffy angrily cries out that she's in such pain and they don't get any of it. And Tara/Xander/Anya sit like mutes and never feel moved to jump in with their own apology. That's absolutely letting Willow take the fall for the whole spell.

    Of course. I've already expressed anger towards both Xander and Anya for agreeing to a spell that they didn't know the full details of. I'm not trying to let them off the hook whatsoever and that's the whole point of what I've been criticising them for.
    You said that Xander/Anya/Tara:

    The characters could have quite easily placed more blame on [Willow], in all honesty they wouldn't have been entirely wrong to do so, but they never do.

    You are saying that Xander/Anya/Tara took more punishment and blame than they deserved in the show. Blame that should have primarily gone to Willow instead.

    Meanwhile, I don't think the fall out for the resurrection should have been about punishment and blame for the Scoobies at all. It was really counter-productive and unfair. People shouldn't be made to feel like crap for taking a chance on Lady Life. However, I do see a problem that whatever punishment and blame overwhelmingly went to Willow when she had three co-conspirators.

    No. What the text does is respect depression and the person who suffers from it rather than condemns them for it, judges their feelings, or tries to point out how they're wrong, wrong, wrong to feel the way they do. Any story that sets out to explore depression only to point out how it’s an “inaccurate” way to feel and a “flaw” is disgusting and really unhelpful. The story respects what Buffy is feeling at all times, as it should, whilst it follows her journey throughout the season of slowly healing from her experience, finding her inner strength, and appreciating the beauty the world has to offer
    Buffy hated everything that had to do with life. For at least a year but I'd argue that Buffy's hatred and contempt for life and people is an ongoing thing through 9.12. Buffy left all of her friends and her little sister with the impression that Buffy would rather be dead than have to be with them. Buffy tried killing all of her friends and sister because she preferred the idea of her being in an asylum. She liked the idea of dying from invisibility and even after she said that she changed her mind, she regarded herself as finished with life until Grave. She was hacking at her hair and engaging in a self-destructive relationship. If we're in the business of saying what behavior and attitudes wrong (and you certainly are doing that re: the Scoobies' resurrection), Buffy's behavior was wrong.

    Not to mention that genuinely depressed people get medication to correct neurological chemical imbalances and/or they see therapists that try to move from a destructive outlook on life to something more positive. However, it ultimately is about "correcting" chemical imbalances in the brain or self-defeating attitudes.

    However for all non-charlatan therapists and non-quack shrinks, it is never about indulging a patient's belief as fact that life sucks and they should have been finished at 20 because that's when they wanted to commit suicide and their friends' attempts to extent the patient's life is sheer selfish indignity.

    Again, if a person fell into a coma at 20 and was bitterly resentful and depressed at being awoken several months later because they preferred the peace of the coma to the stress of life, they would be put on medication and taken to a shrink to try to get them to change their mind and move past that destructive, selfish feeling. No one would ever suggest that the family and doctor did anything wrong by lifting their 20 year old out of a coma. No one would ever bemoan that the former coma patient should have been finished with activity and it's a tragedy that they have to get out of bed and live. The only piece of writing that I've ever seen strenuously argue that mystical parallel is BTVS and I just can't fathom the empty, nihilistic dysfunctionality of this message.
    Last edited by Dipstick; 08-08-12 at 04:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post
    I see a big difference between Xander and Anya on the issue. First, we don't know whether Xander got Anya to bargain for the Backstreet Boys Lunchbox so much as wanted one and Anya knew about it. Anya describes her procurement of the Urn as- *she* looked through every magic supplier, *she* found it on E-Bay, *she* negotiated with the desert gnome.
    Unless your argument is that Xander was kept in the dark about this (for which we have absolutely no basis to assume that) then I don’t see why that matters? If Xander can stand idly by whilst Anya finds Willow her Urn and doesn’t lift a finger to stop it, but is still greatly uncomfortable about the resurrection right up until the night before, then why can’t Anya be exactly the same? Getting the Urn isn’t proof that Anya was a great supporter of the resurrection otherwise Xander’s own reaction wouldn’t make any sense. He might have not been the one to use the Magic Box suppliers (although it’s pretty obvious why it would be Anya who takes the lead here) but he knew exactly what Anya was doing, may or may not have got her to toss in a free Backstreet Boys collectible, and he still had serious doubts.

    As I said, the shooting script says they both react in “fear”, Willow addresses both of them because she can tell by their reaction she’s losing them both, Anya is making excuses to get out of it, Anya later says she knew they shouldn’t have resurrected Buffy and that she should have said something etc. I don’t sense the distinction that you do between Xander and Anya here.

    And while Anya is the type to correct on zombie mythology, how often does Anya shut down Xander's objections because Willow is the Boss? Hmm?
    That's just it, I don't believe she was intending to shut down Xander's objections. And it's actually not at all different to a very similar scene in Get It Done, only in that episode their roles were reversed;

    BUFFY
    Then why are you here? Aside from getting rescued what is it that you do?

    ANYA
    I provide much needed... sarcasm

    XANDER
    Actually, that would be my job!


    In this scene Xander isn't deliberately trying to undermine Anya in anyway. In fact, he goes on to defend her moments later. It’s obvious that in both scenes the writers are just trying to add in a bit of comedy. Anya has never been one to think that people need to "shut down their objections" to please whoever is boss. She certainly never acted like that in regards to Buffy and it makes no sense she'd command that sort of respect for Willow, who she liked a lot less at the time.

    Anya was very uncomfortable with the notion of raising the dead, like Tara and heck, like Willow. However, Anya's essential vote was in to resurrect. Xander, however, was uncomfortable and voting "no" right up until Willow drew the compelling scenario that Buffy is trapped in a hell dimension.
    Whereas, the way I see it both Xander and Anya react exactly the same but Xander just continues arguing the point because, like so many Scooby arguments, the "Core" members usually end up taking centre stage. Xander and Anya both react way too similarly for me to distinguish between them. In fact, I’ve always gotten the impression from that scene that in private they’ve already discussed how unsure they are about the whole thing. Their reactions are just way too in sync for it to be the first time they both have expressed deep concern.

    Willow defensively, with a raised note of defensiveness and protectiveness of Buffy, says that Buffy isn't broken. And then in Willow's next four sentences, she voices her thoughts aloud that Buffy could be broken from a hell dimension and "oh, god, what if she never gets over it." Then, Anya angrily yells- NOT with a raised note of defensiveness but with pure anger at Willow- ANYA: And you think of this now?!!.
    I think you're splitting hairs here. Willow gets "raised note of defensiveness" whilst Anya gets "yelling." The way I hear it, both were as loud and as sharp as each other. Sorry.

    But you were accusing the Scoobies of not considering repercussions after the spell. You wrote over on the Mark Watches Thread:

    It's not that I expected the Scoobies to have every contingency plan already set in place. It's just annoyance that it appears they never even *considered* a lot of it. And then you have Willow shutting down anyone who dared say aloud that they might have screwed up or that Buffy might not be ok, which isn't helpful to Buffy and is more about Willow reassuring herself that she made the right decision. And that's not even taking account the rather ignorant and/or arrogant attitudes expressed by both Willow and Xander at various points. Namely;

    "Risk of what? Making her deader!?"

    And;

    "Give it a week and she'll be our little Buffster again"

    The first is just sheer arrogance and Buffy's spirit and body deserved more respect. I dont know how much of that arrogance factored into how Willow planned this all out, but it's upsetting it's there at all. The latter is nothing more than ignorance and it does make me feel badly that she's thrust back into this world, he'll or no hell, but she had those opinions/expectations/rationalizations to contend with.



    You are accusing Willow and Xander, at least, of ignorance and disrespect for Buffy's body and spirit in statements made after the resurrection. My argument is that we have textual examples of all of the Scoobies doing the difficult work of considering the repercussions of the spell post-spell.
    I'm at a loss. I don't see anything in my posts that contradicts what I have been saying over and over again. In the part you quoted I clearly state that Willow was shutting down people as an attempt of "reassuring" herself which is exactly what I have been saying here. I'm afraid I can't articulate my thoughts on this any other way and I already felt like I was becoming repetitive so in all honesty I don't feel like trying again. I feel like the debate has reached the point where we’ve started to argue over semantics and that's always a sign that it's probably time to move on.

    Even the argument that the Scoobies considered no repercussions before the spell is inaccurate. Anya/Tara/Xander were all uncomfortable with the dark nature of the spell. Willow clearly knew that this spell could kill her and would certainly take a dark toll on her. Willow makes herself the locus of all darkness in the spell- the one to kill the deer, asking Osiris to test *her*.
    I thought it was clear I was talking about the repercussions for Buffy. How this would affect her in the long run? etc.

    Giles starts out by hissing, "You're a very stupid girl". He hisses a few more lines and then starts to yell, "Think what you've done to Buffy."

    Either way, I don't get why this is like pulling teeth. You said:

    Again, the only person to ever yell at Willow was Giles in Flooded. And to be fair, she started raising her voice at him first.

    I say Giles was the first to raise his voice on the line, "Think what you've done to Buffy". Either way, Giles was fixin' for a fight with Willow the minute he hissed, "You're a very stupid girl".
    It's like "pulling my teeth" because all I stated was that Giles did not start raising his voice until Willow raised it first, and I stand by that statement 100%. I never said he wasn't angry at Willow or hostile towards her. He didn't yell or shout "think what you've done to Buffy", either. The only time he yells is at the very end of argument.

    I don't disagree that Giles went into that conversation extremely pissed off at Willow. Not that I blame him, mind you. Aside from how flippant her account was of the spell (and not remotely accurate – “I totally kept my cool and the next thing you know, Buffy!” … *snort*) he knows that she had been lying to him for months. Of course he’s going to be pissed to find out she was holding secret meetings behind his back and ordering the others to keep him in the dark.

    Tara's behavior is just so weird. Tara said that by resurrecting Buffy, they essentially unleashed the Biker Gang, threw Sunnydale into ruin, put Dawn in danger, and couldn't even finish the spell to get Buffy. The heaviest of accusations. Not only that, Amber Benson delivers the line as a line of reproach to Willow to get her to think about how wrong her idea to resurrect Buffy was.

    Willow takes all of those accusations on her shoulders and starts blaming herself. It is just so strange that Tara could see Willow absorbing such a heavy load of guilt without clarifying herself. "Will, I didn't mean that. We all know that demons threatening Sunnydale don't need a resurrection-engraved invitation to come in" or "Honey, we all thought that resurrecting Buffy was the best of bad choices." Instead, Tara just lets Willow walk into the big fight believing that this is all Willow's fault.

    I have to connect that weirdness to what I perceive as a larger issue on how Tara makes points. Tara expresses a deeply held hostile belief that she's been nursing for awhile and then when someone challenges her on it or Tara can see how saying that made her sound like a heel, Tara retreats with no clarification or apology for her first statement so the bad thought is just hanging out there. See Family and Tough Love. Tara realized that her line in Bargaining Part II made her sound like a heel so she hugged Willow a little but Tara didn't want to apologize or clarify because she *did* want to leave Willow with the impression that Willow rained down misery so Willow would never stick a magical toe out of line again.
    Eh, it's safe to say that you and I have always had completely different views on Tara. I think its best just to agree to disagree on this point because "our" Tara's are such polar opposites in every way that we might as well be talking about two completely different characters.

    Tara says that "we" have to stop obsessing on a line entirely about how they need to relieve themselves of guilt and stop pondering what they did. That's what you define as taking personal responsibility for the spell????? Something tells me that if Willow said something like, "we have to stop obsessing about what we did", you and other fans would pillory her for it as avoiding culpability for her actions.
    Yes, she is taking responsibility for the spell by claiming it is something THEY did. None of their behaviour in Tabula Rasa thrills me – and you know that already – but since that wasn’t the point I was trying to make it’s all rather irrelevant.

    And again, Willow makes the first and last public apology in Tabula Rasa to Buffy for tearing her out of heaven. (I think we can take Willow's comments in Anywhere But Here as an apology too but that wasn't public.) Buffy angrily cries out that she's in such pain and they don't get any of it. And Tara/Xander/Anya sit like mutes and never feel moved to jump in with their own apology. That's absolutely letting Willow take the fall for the whole spell.
    Or, maybe they just see that it would do more harm than good to try and talk to Buffy so they keep their mouths shut? You keep blaming other people for the way WILLOW chooses to respond to things and for which they have no control over. As I said, the only time any character EVER states that Willow is more responsible for the spell is when Tara tries to get her more PRAISE when Buffy pretends to be grateful. That's the ONLY time. Every other time the group makes "we" or "us" statements.

    You said that Xander/Anya/Tara:

    The characters could have quite easily placed more blame on [Willow], in all honesty they wouldn't have been entirely wrong to do so, but they never do.

    You are saying that Xander/Anya/Tara took more punishment and blame than they deserved in the show. Blame that should have primarily gone to Willow instead.
    Of course Willow deserves more blame. When you take on the leadership role you assume more responsibility than the people you are leading. Willow was the one dishing out orders, Willow was the one who said that “nobody is changing their minds, period”, Willow was the one who researched the spell, Willow was the one who kept details about the spell a secret from everyone, Willow was the one who decided when they would perform the spell, without Willow’s power it couldn’t have been possible etc. Any way you cut it, Willow is more responsible than anybody else for resurrecting Buffy. This doesn’t mean that the others don’t share a great deal of responsibility because they do, but Willow is absolutely more responsible.

    That doesn't mean I think the others would have been right to point this out. They were right to just reflect on their own personal responsibility and leave it at that. Which is what they did.

    Buffy hated everything that had to do with life. For at least a year but I'd argue that Buffy's hatred and contempt for life and people is an ongoing thing through 9.12.
    I couldn't disagree more about that view of Buffy. And I'll leave it at that. I can't have another discussion about the themes of S6. We both know where we stand and neither of us are going to change our minds.
    - "The earth is doomed" -


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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    Unless your argument is that Xander was kept in the dark about this (for which we have absolutely no basis to assume that) then I don’t see why that matters? If Xander can stand idly by whilst Anya finds Willow her Urn and doesn’t lift a finger to stop it, but is still greatly uncomfortable about the resurrection right up until the night before, then why can’t Anya be exactly the same? Getting the Urn isn’t proof that Anya was a great supporter of the resurrection otherwise Xander’s own reaction wouldn’t make any sense. He might have not been the one to use the Magic Box suppliers (although it’s pretty obvious why it would be Anya who takes the lead here) but he knew exactly what Anya was doing, may or may not have got her to toss in a free Backstreet Boys collectible, and he still had serious doubts.
    I mean, you said it yourself re: Willow being the one to perform the resurrection. Actually doing the stuff makes you a firmer voter/more responsible participant. That is always true but of course, responsiblity varies case by case.

    In this case, Anya went through the bother of looking through all of their suppliers and hunting down the item on the Internet and negotiating with the gnome. Not Xander. Not to mention that if Anya really wanted to stop the spell in its tracks, she was responsible for obtaining this Super Special Urn. If Anya wanted to, she could have obtained the last remaining Urn of Osiris and hidden it. Instead, Anya goes through the trouble of finding the Urn and handing it over with Xander merely having knowledge that Anya was doing this. It's definitely enough for me to say that Anya, despite her discomfort, put her vote in to resurrect while Xander didn't.

    As I said, the shooting script says they both react in “fear”, Willow addresses both of them because she can tell by their reaction she’s losing them both, Anya is making excuses to get out of it, Anya later says she knew they shouldn’t have resurrected Buffy and that she should have said something etc. I don’t sense the distinction that you do between Xander and Anya here.
    Willow assumes that Anya will eventually go where Xander goes. Willow's belief that Xander can sway folks is why she says later on:

    WILLOW: Xander, I can do this, I promise. But not without you.
    However, just because Willow perceives that she can lose Anya's and Tara's votes because of Xander's visible fear of the resurrection doesn't mean that Anya wasn't essentially voting for the resurrection.

    That's just it, I don't believe she was intending to shut down Xander's objections. And it's actually not at all different to a very similar scene in Get It Done, only in that episode their roles were reversed;

    BUFFY
    Then why are you here? Aside from getting rescued what is it that you do?

    ANYA
    I provide much needed... sarcasm

    XANDER
    Actually, that would be my job!


    In this scene Xander isn't deliberately trying to undermine Anya in anyway. In fact, he goes on to defend her moments later. It’s obvious that in both scenes the writers are just trying to add in a bit of comedy.
    It's totally different from Get It Done. The provider of sarcasm is vested with no authority. The Boss of the Scoobies is and that authority is exactly what Anya was arguing Willow had. Here's the snippet:

    WILLOW: Nobody's changing their minds. Period.
    XANDER: Excuse me? Who made you the boss of the group?
    ANYA: You did.
    TARA: You said Willow should be boss.
    Xander questions how Willow has the right to shut down the discussion with such finality. Anya, first, and Tara, second, point out that Willow is the Boss, justifying Willow's ability to say, "Nobody's changing their minds. Period." Both Anya and Tara were arguing for Willow's authority. In Anya's case, I can only assume that an argument for Willow's authority over the group and her ability to make executive decisions meant that Anya kind of agreed with the executive decision that Willow was making, despite Anya's discomfort with it.

    Whereas, the way I see it both Xander and Anya react exactly the same but Xander just continues arguing the point because, like so many Scooby arguments, the "Core" members usually end up taking centre stage.
    Life doesn't work like that and life doesn't insert comedy into a scene, as you argued above. For the purposes of analyzing this scene, I'm trying to move past guessing what the writers wanted from the scene to focus on how I perceive the character's motivations if they were real people.

    In fact, I’ve always gotten the impression from that scene that in private they’ve already discussed how unsure they are about the whole thing.
    Oh, I'm sure that Anya and Xander talked in private about how unsure they were about the spell, how much they resent Willow as a Boss. However, while Anya was having those conversations, she was tracking down the Urn of Osiris to desert gnomes in Cairo. And then on the final yardline, Anya is an advocate for Willow's authority and her version of facts.

    I think you're splitting hairs here. Willow gets "raised note of defensiveness" whilst Anya gets "yelling." The way I hear it, both were as loud and as sharp as each other. Sorry.
    I'm really not splitting hairs. Willow's comment that Buffy isn't broken is defensive. Anya's demands on why Willow didn't bother to think before the spell that Buffy could return an unpalatable citizen of the world is an attack/accusation. It's in the very text.

    It's like "pulling my teeth" because all I stated was that Giles did not start raising his voice until Willow raised it first, and I stand by that statement 100%. I never said he wasn't angry at Willow or hostile towards her. He didn't yell or shout "think what you've done to Buffy", either. The only time he yells is at the very end of argument.
    Now, we're getting to semantics because he did yell "think of what you've done to Buffy". However that aside, I don't get why you had to write:

    Again, the only person to ever yell at Willow was Giles in Flooded. And to be fair, she started raising her voice at him first.

    When the text makes it clear that Giles was looking for a vicious thrown-down of Willow before she spoke. There's no "fair to Giles". Giles was looking forward to yelling at and insulting Willow. He did so before she did joined in kind. Like, more than several times.

    I don't disagree that Giles went into that conversation extremely pissed off at Willow. Not that I blame him, mind you. Aside from how flippant her account was of the spell (and not remotely accurate – “I totally kept my cool and the next thing you know, Buffy!” … *snort*) he knows that she had been lying to him for months. Of course he’s going to be pissed to find out she was holding secret meetings behind his back and ordering the others to keep him in the dark.
    I agree that Giles had the right to be pissed and he had a right to confront Willow about the secret-keeping. Even though Giles did resign as a member of the group and basically asked for them to leave him alone, he still commanded more respect from the Scoobies than Colin the Horseback Rider in Bath.

    However, I don't think that Giles had the right to lay into Willow as he did unless he wanted to destroy their relationship and make an enemy out of her. Even if Giles did decide that he was totally done with this bitch (which Giles probably decided), Giles's behavior was still dumb and impolite. And he was being unreasonable by continuing to lay into Willow even when she was trying to discuss this amicably.

    And if Giles genuinely felt that the Scoobies could have endangered the world or tapped into some hellbeast that could have dangerous repercussions, he should have subpenaed Willow's documents relating to the spell or asked for interrogatories with her, Tara, Anya and Xander to get to the bottom of whether they were safe. And Giles's righteousness of "Think of what you've done to Buffy" sounds very hallow by Once More With Feeling/Tabula Rasa.

    Or, maybe they just see that it would do more harm than good to try and talk to Buffy so they keep their mouths shut? You keep blaming other people for the way WILLOW chooses to respond to things and for which they have no control over.
    I don't put much stock in "we" or "us" statements when the Scoobies are doing nothing to take blame when the chips are down. It's like the fruitlessness of using "I statements" in the middle of an angry intervention. Like so:
    Willow: This isn't about attacking Buffy. Remember, 'I' statements only. 'I feel angry.' 'I feel worried.'
    Cordelia: Fine. Here's one: I feel worried... about me! Last time around, Angel barely laid a hand on Buffy. He was *way* more interested in killing her friends.
    The Scoobies had the opportunity to disabuse Willow of the idea that this was all her fault in their first scene together or the opportunity to stand with her instead of leaving her to face Buffy's rage alone in the second team. They took a pass both times. The words, "we" or "us" are cheap in light of that. However, I get that this has become a debate on semantics.

    Of course Willow deserves more blame.
    I never said Willow didn't deserve more blame, or for that matter, more credit. However, Willow deserved neither all of the blame nor all of the credit or a disproportionate amount. Yet, I felt that Willow got disproportionate blame. Giles screamed at Willow, no one else. Buffy angrily cried at Willow, no one else. Buffy punched the punching bag like she wished it was Willow, no one else. Dawn yelled at Willow for giving and taking lives, no one else. Spike rained down mud on Willow's respect for Buffy's body, no one else. Anya yelled at Willow for not anticipating Buffy's state of mind pre-resurrection, no else. Willow apologized to Buffy alone with no one else backing her up. Willow flogged herself with sheer self-hatred thrice in Tabula Rasa and Two To Go and Anywhere But Here and no one did that or tried to disabuse Willow of that notion. Then, the members of Angel Investigations including Spike got to revile Willow behind her back for not being on speed dial to resurrect Fred after Willow proved that she can resurrect. Willow really got all of the hatred, all of the blame, all of the attacks for the resurrection.

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    I voted that they were wrong to resurrect her. Much as I know some people here hate Giles rant and think he was being unreasonable, I think as far as the mythology of the show goes, Giles does know what he's talking about and Willow did cross lines that shouldn't be crossed. There were repercussions to the resurrection that are still felt in seasons 7, 8 and arguably 9.

    Obviously I understand where the scoobies are coming from, especially if they believed that Buffy's soul was suffering in hell. But it's clear in season 6 that the scoobies didn't really think the whole thing through properly because there were alternatives that they didn't want to think about. They just wanted their friend back.

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    I think I'm mostly gonna stay out of the Dipstick-vampmogs debate going on, but on a particular relatively minor point of Dipstick's:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post
    The writers should have shown that differently. Frankly, I think they got the message that the Scoobs were being reckless and desperate to get Buffy back without making them all seem like halfwits in not realizing that buried people need to be dug out to start living on land.
    Because as usual I want to stick up for my misshapen disfigured baby (i.e. season six):

    Well, I agree with vampmogs on what this was both meant to do and what it actually did. But I think it actually makes sense that they don’t anticipate this even without requiring them to be idiots.

    WILLOW: This isn't like Dawn trying to bring Mrs. Summers back, or anything we've dealt with before. Buffy didn't die a natural death. She was killed by mystical energy.
    TARA: Which means we do have a shot.
    WILLOW: It means more than that. (to Xander) It means we don't know ... where she really is.
    XANDER: We saw her body, Will. We buried it.
    WILLOW: Her body, yeah. But her soul ... her essence ... I mean, that could be somewhere else. She could be trapped, in-in some sort of hell dimension like Angel was. (tearfully) Suffering eternal torment, just because she saved us, and I'm not gonna let ... I'm not gonna leave her there. (intensely) It's Buffy.
    OK. The primary model that the Scoobies have for this type of thing is Angel in s3; it’s why they worry that Buffy is in a hell dimension. It’s also why they see her body as basically irrelevant in the Big Picture. Angel came down from above and fell naked onto the floor. Why wouldn’t Buffy do the same? Why wouldn’t the spell that brought Buffy’s essential selfhood-ness to cross over form a body with it too?

    For me, I have trouble with the basic premise of the episode(s)—that Buffy’s soul got physically separated from her body and went into some other dimension because she passed through the portal and died there. That is, you know, weird, and one of those Buffyverse theology things I have never quite been able to get a handle on. But once we accept that that is what happened -- and that is what happened, with the exception that Buffy's soul went to a more pleasant place than Willow et al. had anticipated -- then it is not so crazy that Buffy's essence will be given physical form as Buffy's body, soul intact, at the site of the ritual. Snakes get formed out of nowhere to emerge from Willow's mouth; this is a spell that creates physical form out of apparently nothing, probably converting energy from some other dimension into physical form in ours.

    I think the idea that returning Buffy’s soul to the Earth would mean that it returns straight to Buffy’s body fits—it has the right poetics. But it could have gone another way, that Buffy would just form, entirely, mind-body-soul, before them, on the Earth. The way Angel did and Cordelia will in The House Always Wins. The crucial detail is that Angel's and Cordelia's body disappeared as well as their essence; but the location of the rotting remains of the physical body Buffy had inhabited before her real self disappeared didn't seem like such a big deal. They didn't think of it as 100% irrelevant -- they did the ritual at Buffy's grave -- but they really didn't think she'd return to it.

    Once you get used to the idea that the physical isn’t that important, it makes sense.

    Actually this ties in with the seasonal themes quite well. The relationship between the physical and the metaphysical is pretty central to the whole season, wherein “metal means propulsion” is the ultimate in killing and there’s lots of sexing and punching as a way to deal with spiritual unease. Willow’s tendency at this point is to abstract away the physical world in favour of the spiritual. In a sense, so was the show's. Buffy's body in The Gift was pristine, beautiful, unravaged by age, as she gets to die a perfectly coiffed twenty-year old before she's about to undergo a year of feeling the pressures of the physical world while experiencing spiritual unrest.

    ...ANYWAY.



    Quote Originally Posted by BuffySpike View Post
    Was the episode called Bargaining because the scoobies were in the Bargaining stage of grief rather than the Acceptance stage?

    Thats why they resurrected her?
    I think that is part of the multiple meanings of the title. The big literal point here is that there is an implied trade-off. Willow kills the fawn and undergoes a deathly ritual in order to bring Buffy back. The question the audience has to ask is: is this the real "price" for Buffy back? Did they get what they bargained for? The fact that the gang was literally bargaining for Buffy back, rather than accepting her death, is a reference to the stages of coping with grief, though, I agree. Up for debate (obviously) is whether this was an appropriate measure. Ultimately I still think the gang was right to resurrect Buffy, on the balance, though I think personally that the text is nicely ambivalent on that point (whereas other people understandably feel that the text is not ambivalent, or feel that the text's attitude is wrong).
    Last edited by Local Maximum; 08-08-12 at 09:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Local Maximum View Post
    I think I'm mostly gonna stay out of the Dipstick-vampmogs debate going on, but on a particular relatively minor point of Dipstick's
    LOL, but you just may have found a point of detante for vampmogs and I because I think we'll both agree that the Scoobies were utter morons for not digging up Buffy or at least, showing up with shovels to help dig if they heard signs of a struggle.

    OK. The primary model that the Scoobies have for this type of thing is Angel in s3; it’s why they worry that Buffy is in a hell dimension.
    See, I don't think the Scoobies were big on using Angel as a model in Bargaining because they never mention Angel's Acathala experience in the ep and the Scoobies do always treat Buffy as a girl who's been dead and buried for months. Just as a girl who was killed by mystical means which gives them an in with Osiris- nothing more.

    IMO, the Scoobies, like most folks, viewed dying young as scary and bad. This belief was given extra passion and meat because the Scoobies devoted their lives to making sure that others don't die young and before their time. In a nutshell, that's what being a Scooby is all about.

    Religious people turn to "She's in a better place" or "We have to accept that Jesus wants our beloved person up in heaven" thoughts. Non-religious people like the Scoobs (minus maybe Tara) don't have that. What the Scoobies did have was an aggregate of brushes with hell, including Acathala, Buffy in Anne and the fact that dragons and demons came out of Glory's portal instead of angels and harps. And the Scoobies' constant experience that fate is a cruel and unfair mistress in their universe.

    So, I put the Scoobies' belief that Buffy in a hell based on a variety factors rather than using Angel in Acathala as any chief model.

    Why wouldn’t Buffy do the same? Why wouldn’t the spell that brought Buffy’s essential selfhood-ness to cross over form a body with it too?
    The Scoobies treated Buffy like someone whose body has been buried. They probably buried her and got her a headstone- and I've read fanfics about the Scoobies burying Buffy all alone and cloaking her headstone with invisibility magic to continue with their charade to the demons and human public that Buffy is still alive.

    So, I find the Scoobies extremely dumb for not considering how Buffy's body is going to come up and preparing for anything. I like my analogy of the 20-year old patient in a coma for several months and the responsibilities of the doctor and family in a hypothetical surgery to bring the patient out of the coma. No one would hold the family responsible for agreeing to bring the patient out of the coma because the patient ended up preferring the peace of the coma to the activity of life. However, the doctor would be disciplined and possibly sued for malpractice if he didn't arrange for someone to wheel the patient out of surgery and into their recovery room. I see the Scoobies not considering how to get Buffy's body out of the ground as very similar.

    For me, I have trouble with the basic premise of the episode(s)—that Buffy’s soul got physically separated from her body and went into some other dimension because she passed through the portal and died there. That is, you know, weird, and one of those Buffyverse theology things I have never quite been able to get a handle on.
    True. I don't know what made this portal different than Acathala or Ken's portal to a factory below.

    Well, I agree with vampmogs on what this was both meant to do and what it actually did. But I think it actually makes sense that they don’t anticipate this even without requiring them to be idiots.
    IMO, the writers should have had the Scoobies bring along a shovel in case but be unsure of how Osiris was going to return Buffy and to neglect digging up Buffy's ahead of time in case Osiris wanted the burial ground undisturbed. The writers would have gotten across everything that they wanted. The resurrection was disturbed by the Biker Gang anyway so Buffy still would have to dig herself out her own grave. The Scoobies still would have appeared hopelessly out of their depth by not knowing how Osiris would return Buffy to them. However, neither Anya, Xander, Tara or Willow even considering how to obtain Buffy's body once it's alive was overkill character-bashing from the writers.

    YMMV, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dipstick View Post
    LOL, but you just may have found a point of detante for vampmogs and I because I think we'll both agree that the Scoobies were utter morons for not digging up Buffy or at least, showing up with shovels to help dig if they heard signs of a struggle.
    LOL, I'm happy to find the one point of agreement to attempt to disagree with.

    I haven't had internet for a long time and I'm on the train so, well, I'll do short replies.

    You're right that Angel isn't the central model, but Angel/"Anne"/etc. are models for the mythology, I think. At any rate, while the Scoobies

    I'd agree with you if I thought that the Scoobies genuinely thought that Buffy's spirit might well return to the remains of her physical body. I just don't think they think that way -- I think they fully anticipate that Buffy will return, body and soul, above ground, her previous body essentially irrelevant to the whole procedure.

    WILLOW: (OS) What?
    XANDER: No. How could we ... so stupid!
    WILLOW: Xander!
    XANDER: Our spell. Our resurrection spell worked like a magic charm. We brought you back to life, Buffy. (looks at Willow) Right where we left her.
    This is, itself, still dumb because they were wrong, but it's not like they knew she was going to return to her coffin and didn't plan. They thought she was going to return elsewhere, which is a different kind of mistake.

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    All caught up.

    ________________

    I’m going to be putting ‘general ideas’ stuff in the beginning of this post instead of continuing to respond to everything posted. I will read everything, but I’m on post 24/72 and my post is already around 12 pages (with .5 margins).

    __________

    This is obviously a very long post – it took around 8 hours to read through and respond to these 72 posts. Most of my points are in the beginning bullet points section, so, if one doesn’t have the time or inclination to go through the post and respond, one can focus on those beginning points.


    * Buffy was in a heavenly dimension. Here’s what she says to Spike in “Afterlife” (6.03):
    SPIKE: Well, I haven't been to a hell dimension just of late, but I do know a thing or two about torment.
    He sits beside her.
    BUFFY: (still looking down) I was happy.
    Spike looks at her in confusion.
    BUFFY: Wherever I ... was ... I was happy. At peace.
    Spike stares, shocked.
    BUFFY: I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time ... didn't mean anything ... nothing had form ... but I was still me, you know? (glances at him, then away) And I was warm ... and I was loved ... and I was finished. Complete. I don't understand about theology or dimensions, or ... any of it, really ... but I think I was in heaven.
    Spike continues to stare at her in dismay.
    BUFFY: And now I'm not. (almost tearful) I was torn out of there. Pulled out ... by my friends. (Spike continues staring, listening) Everything here is ... hard, and bright, and violent. Everything I feel, everything I touch ... this is Hell. Just getting through the next moment, and the one after that ... (softly) knowing what I've lost...
    http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/tran.../103_tran.html I consider any suggestion or implication that she should have wanted to be back on Earth or that she should have been okay that she was torn out of heaven or that she should have handled the situation better extremely insensitive to Buffy and what she went through.

    * Also, this sounds nothing like an idealized version of childhood and it’s sounds nothing like being in a mental hospital.

    ___________

    * Unless one wants to argue that she should have let Dawn die, she wasn’t neglecting any responsibilities being in heaven while she was in heaven. She was DEAD and she was in a heavenly dimension.

    It’s not as if she was in a Cordelia situation – meaning that she could see her friends’ struggles and should have been concerned about them.

    It’s not the situation in the
    Spoiler:
    Twilight dimension


    ___________

    * Buffy’s body didn’t go to a hell dimension so there’s no reasonable reason to assume that her soul went to a hell dimension. And given that neither Giles nor Spike tried to bring her back, it’s possible that they both assumed that she was in a ‘better place’.

    The situation is not comparable to “Anne” (3.01) or to “Becoming Part II” (2.22) as Buffy in “The Gift” (5.22) didn’t physically go anywhere – she died and then fell to the ground.

    * The Willow group seemed to want to believe that her soul was in a hell dimension because it would justify them trying to bring her back.

    Anyway, at least 3 months passed between “The Gift” (5.22) and “Bargaining” (6.01), so that was plenty of time to figure out where Buffy actually might be.

    * Here’s the conversation in “Tabula Rasa” (6.08):
    TARA: It's totally not stupid to wonder what it was like for Buffy. But it could have been any one of a zillion heavenly dimensions. All we know is that ... it was a good place and she was happy there.
    WILLOW: And we took her away from that. We wrecked it for her.
    XANDER: We didn't wreck. We didn't know.
    WILLOW: We didn't wanna know. (Tara looks sadly at her) We were so selfish. *I* was so selfish.
    XANDER: (shakes head) Maybe we were. I just feel weird feeling bad that my friend's not dead. It's ... too mind-boggling. So I've decided to simplify the whole thing. Me like Buffy. Buffy's alive, so, me glad.
    TARA: Not to be Miss Psycho Pep Squad, but we have *got* to stop obsessing about what we did and start trying to make things better for Buffy.
    ANYA: I'm with Miss Psycho Pep Squad.
    XANDER: Ah, we need to spend more time with her, just hang out. Maybe have ... weekly dinners over here, or, uh ... a book club. Short books. Videos.
    WILLOW: I can fix it. I know a spell.
    TARA: (angrily) No! No more spells.
    Xander looks from Tara to Willow, confused.
    WILLOW: (to Tara) Then what? This isn't something that's gonna be fixed by a video club. I know I messed up, okay, and ... I wanna fix it.
    TARA: I can't believe that we are talking about this again. You know how powerful magic is, how dangerous. You could hurt someone, you ... you could hurt yourself.
    WILLOW: (shaking head) I know a spell that will make her forget she was ever in heaven.
    TARA: (angrily) God, what is wrong with you?!
    http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/tran.../108_tran.html

    Willow and Xander both admit that they didn’t want to know where Buffy actually was and both admit that they were being selfish in trying to bring her back.

    While I consider that they should have tried to bring Buffy back because she was needed for Slayer duties, it seems that they tried to bring her back simply because they missed her. And that they didn’t mention their plans to Giles, Dawn, or Spike means that they were being awfully selfish and perhaps arrogant to consider their concerns for her as friends more important than Buffy’s father figure concerns for her and Buffy’s sister concerns for her. And I consider that given that he was taking care of Dawn and given that he was patrolling with the Scoobies and such that they should have told Spike about their plans. Given he abandoned her, I consider that there was less need to tell Angel, but Willow did tell him that Buffy was dead and so maybe should have informed him about their plans.

    * If Dawn needing Buffy back and if Giles needing Buffy back were motivations for the ‘Willow group’ to try to bring Buffy back, Why didn’t they inform them of their plan?

    * It’s important to note that this is a conversation amongst the Willow group. Xander is talking as if Buffy needs to have more time with her friends and isn’t discussing Giles and Dawn. And Willow just decides to wipe Buffy’s memory and she ONLY discusses this with the Willow group. And Willow never seems to consider how Giles and Dawn will react to Buffy’s memory wipe. And certainly none of the group discuss asking Buffy how she wants to handle things or asking her how they can help her. The Willow group decides to decide things for her (and by extrapolation to decide things instead of having Buffy’s ‘family’ – Dawn and Giles – decide things).

    _______________

    * It seems obvious that the Willow group didn’t inform Giles, Dawn, (or Spike?) of their resurrection spell plans because they didn’t think that they would support those plans or they didn’t think them important and/or relevant enough to know about their plans.

    _______________

    * They didn’t ask them, so the Willow group didn’t know if Giles and/or Spike knew of ways that Buffy could be brought back.

    _______________

    * Given that the earth was so soft and whatnot 3 months after the burial; I consider that someone – Willow or Spike (someone who would think about resurrecting Buffy) – did something to make it so that Buffy could dig herself out of her grave. So, I consider that Willow possibly knew that Buffy would have to dig herself out of her grave or simply didn’t think about where Buffy actually would have been resurrected. And Willow never says that there was some kind of teleportation spell that would have happened so that Buffy wouldn’t have had to dig herself out of her grave. Also, Willow nor anyone else mentioned if they knew that Buffy would have at enough strength to actually dig herself out of the grave. If Buffy’s limbs were in entropy or whatever – think Beatrix Kiddo in Kill Bill – she could have died in that coffin. To that end, why didn’t they dig her up before performing the spell? Was there actually a need to do it in that gravesite?

    _______________

    * If Buffy wanted to be brought back, she would have told Dawn to tell the Scoobies to bring her back. There is simply no reason to believe – other than just deciding that somehow Buffy’s soul went to a hell dimension – that Buffy wanted the Scoobies to bring her back.

    _______________

    * Buffy is a Slayer and in “Bargaining” (6.01) that meant that she had a severely shortened life expectancy and would life a brutal and dangerous life. Any such talk about her resurrection meaning that she could life till she’s old is simply invalid.

    * Buffy is the Slayer and in BtVS S6 and BtVS S7, there was no opportunity were she could legitimately stop performing that role. Buffy is not like other people and perhaps the closest analogy to her role would be a soldier who’s at war every day and whose tour of duty never ends. To that end, her life is a lot more dangerous than the lives of the Scoobies so even they are not necessarily comparable to her.

    ________________

    * In response to finding out that Buffy was in Heaven, Willow wanted to rape her memory and Xander wanted to do stupid things like “weekly dinners over here, or, uh ... a book club. Short books. Videos.” as if that was going to sufficiently lessen Buffy’s pain.

    * Spike was the most helpful to Buffy upon her return and was the most helpful to her throughout BtVS S6 (aside from the attempted rape). He’s the – or at least the main – reason that she didn’t commit suicide. Willow was doing things like complaining that Buffy wasn’t effusively and fervently thanking her, almost killing Dawn, having problems with magic, having problems with Tara, and going evil and beating up Buffy. Tara and she were not helping with the bills and have Buffy getting a job to pay the Summers’ household bills. Tara was probably the second most helpful because at least she was being a ‘mother’ to Dawn. Giles left her albeit he did give her money to help her with her expenses. Xander was helping fix stuff around the house but wasn’t really there for Buffy. He was off having problems with Anya. Dawn was initially gentle but Buffy decided to go be off with Spike. Dawn was whiny at times in the BtVS S6.

    * It was nepotism for Giles to give Buffy a job at the Magic Box. She wasn’t needed and so Anya wasn’t being bad to her. Buffy was pretty much simply taking profits from the store and should have been happy that Anya was so okay with Buffy working there. Given that Buffy ended up getting a crappier job, the Magic Box was a better gig for her. Giles probably would have eventually made Buffy a part owner.

    ________

    * In “Forever” (5.17), Tara was opposed to trying to bring Joyce back because Joyce died from a natural death. Buffy died from a mystical death because the magical portal is what killed her (or at least we are supposed to assume this: it’d be interesting if the fall is what actually killed her which would mean that Buffy technically died from a natural death).

    ________

    * There is another Slayer in the world. The Scoobies could have informed the Watchers Council that Buffy was dead. They could have informed Faith. They could have tried to get Faith out of prison or kill her in order to get another Slayer. Faith or the new Slayer could have performed the functions as Slayer that Buffy performed.

    Yes, she was wanted in Sunnydale for murder, the Council tried to kill her, and it’s possible that the Council couldn’t get Faith cleared of the charges. But the Scoobies didn’t inform Faith and they didn’t inform the Council.

    _________

    * There is no indication that Buffy ever forgot heaven and her experience in heaven.

    _________

    * There’s not really any evidence that the Willow group ever researched the possible dangers of doing the resurrection spell and there’s no real evidence that even if Willow knew about such dangers that those dangers would have possibly prevented her from doing the spell.

    __________

    * Viewers wanted Buffy back because they wanted the show to continue. That’s not the same as pondering whether it would have been better for Buffy if she had stayed in heaven. I consider that it’s easily argued that it would have been better for the world had Buffy stayed in heaven and it’s debatable whether it would have been better for her had she stayed in heaven.

    __________

    * I believe that the Willow group did no due diligence – or if Willow did, she never told anyone – in regard to where Buffy’s soul may actually be and in regard to the possible consequences of doing the spell.

    ___________

    * I consider that taken to its logical conclusion, any argument about the ‘wrongness’ of cursing Angel or re-cursing Angel is an argument that Buffy should have killed Angel in “Angel” (1.07), should have killed him in BtVS S3, etc.

    And I don’t consider it comparable to tearing Buffy out of heaven.

    ___________

    * It can be argued that Cordelia didn’t actually come back to Earth as it seems she was dead the whole time. The PTB may have simply made a ‘manifestation’ of her. The way Angel came back isn’t comparable to the Buffy situation because Angel body and soul went to the hell dimension.




    Stoney

    For people who have religious convictions I would have thought they would say that she should have been left alone.
    They had religious convictions? Willow reminded the Scoobies that she’s a Jew and she put rocks on Tara’s tombstone: that’s all the religion that is shown amongst them.

    I am not sure because the life of a slayer is hard but I see the argument that she would want to have more time with her loved ones and I think this plays true because she did want to live again after she had worked through/dealt with some of her depression.
    Rather than commit suicide. It’s never been certain that she wouldn’t have preferred to stay in Heaven.

    ________________________________________________

    If the Scoobies had been correct and she had been cast into the hell dimension she jumped into the portal of
    There’s no proof that she jumped into a hell dimension at all. The portal was a tear in like all the dimensions or whatever and Glory was going to navigate or whatever into her own dimension. There’s no proof that Buffy’s body went anywhere except in that portal plasma and then fell down to the earth.

    Before they reduced their friendship to a physical relationship Spike was incredibly supportive of Buffy
    What reduction? He added lover on top of best friend, confidant, mentor, etc.

    _________________________________________________

    I really wanted an additional option of "yes but only because they believed she was in hell, if possible they should have checked".
    I listed the options I thought about and didn’t think to list any “they should have researched where she possibly was” options. Sometimes I like such polls because I know not everyone has the time and/or inclination to posts in threads or post in every thread.



    Sunshine Superman

    I voted NO with no caveats because a)they are not God and it is not their place to second guess what a God or in the Buffyuniverse, The Powers That Be, want for the Buffster without hearing from them.
    First off, the PTB seem to not be good or evil. Secondly, it wasn’t their ‘decision’ for Buffy to die: that was Buffy’s. Thirdly, none of them could communicate with the PTB or knew how to communicate with them. Fourthly, at this time, the PTB aren’t even mentioned in BtVS.

    Also, b) the balance of power had been restored and once again there was only one Slayer in the world.
    Faith was in prison and what ‘balance of power’ and why should the Scoobies care about such a ‘balance’. If they could get rid of all the evil demons and vampires in the world, they should do that.

    Admittedly, they had had issues with her (Faith) in the past, but I'm sure that they knew of her sincere repentance.
    Nothing suggests that they did. Even in BtvS S7, it seems only Willow was told of anything and that she relayed that info to Buffy (and Co.?).

    I'd also say that with Spike and Willow and Giles on board, Team Scooby was protecting Sunnydale with far greater muscle and magic than most other places in the whole wide world had as their protectors.
    The Buffybot isn’t on par with Buffy. If it was, it could have fought Glory with the Troll Hammer. And the Scoobies are in Sunnydale not in “most other places in the whole wide world”.

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    Interesting that no one amongst the Scoobs think of investigating the possibility that she might have been reincarnated, and ask Willow to hack into the hospital records to see if any baby girl was born at the moment that Buffy died.
    There’s never been a reincarnation and that doesn’t seem to exist in the Buffyverse.

    Or consider the possiblility that Buffy's death might have activated another Slayer.
    How would they know of that? If anything, the Council would have found the new Slayer. I don’t think the Scoobies at this time had the resources to know if another Slayer was activated and they certainly didn’t have the resources to find and get such a new Slayer.



    Dipstick

    My quote: * Only Willow knew the full details of the spell. Tara knew some things but Xander and Anya seemed almost entirely out of the loop on what exactly the spell entailed.

    The only detail that Willow seemed to exclusively know was the Blood of the Fawn.
    Tara seemed freaked out about what was happening to Willow during the spell. Tara was being a Willow apologist and was not objective.

    My quote: * Willow upon knowing the spell worked seemed mostly concerned with how awesome she is that she could do the spell and that Buffy should be joyfully and effusively thanking Willow.

    Completely false.
    It’s completely true. Willow is this way until after Buffy thanks her and Willow’s really happy about that thanks. Willow’s also very proud of herself and arrogant with Giles when, in “Flooded” (6.04?), Giles expressed concerns about what Willow did.

    Willow is concerned about Buffy's sad, listless demeanor and is anxious about whether the spell was really good.
    Willow is upset that Buffy isn’t joyfully and effusively thanking her. Willow seems to forget that Angel wasn’t immediately happy and perfectly fine after coming back from a hell dimension. And it isn’t until after learning that Buffy was in Heaven that Willow ever thought that doing the spell was nothing less than a fantastic thing.

    And then when Buffy "reassures" the Scoobies that she was in hell and is be grateful to be out in Afterlife, that's it for Willow. Willow didn't need anything else. In fact, Buffy thanks the entire group and Willow just stands there and it's Tara who says that it was all Willow and Willow just knew what to do and Willow looks embarrassed at that praise.
    Willow is happy for the thanks and is proud of herself. And Buffy in that scene clearly isn’t emotional fine and yet the group acts like everything is fine with her.

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    I always interpreted that as in heaven, Buffy was being mindcontrolled to not consider any of the life's problems or any lingering sadness so she could be in that state of placid peace. Buffy went from "Everything in my life gets stripped away- my mom, Riley, Tara- to perfect peace. She was definitely being changed by heaven.
    Buffy could have been with her mother, it’s not as if Riley is the love of her life, and it’s not as if she loves Tara as Willow does.

    I'd never presume that Buffy was with Joyce in heaven with zero statement to that fact but with such an encompassing emotional explanation as above.
    Well, there’s more ‘evidence’ of that than your explanation that she was being mind-controlled (unless one believes that Joyce wasn’t in heaven).

    So Willow as assuming that Buffy would want her to try to bring her back but if Buffy came back a zombie or something, the real Buffy would want to be buried again. Sounds right to me. Now *Spike* was self-righteously saying that if any part of Buffy came back wrong, he would want to keep those parts of Buffy. That I *know* the real Buffy, particularly the pre-S6 one who wasn't in love with Spike, would violently object to.
    First off, what is this talk about the “real Buffy”? The point here is that Buffy herself would be ‘wrong’ in some way. There’s no the ‘real Buffy’ being somewhere else and the ‘wrong’ Buffy not being the ‘real Buffy’. Spike’s point was that if Buffy came back wrong in some way – whatever that meant – that Willow may have decided to kill or destroy that Buffy. Spike’s point is that he’d be relatively okay with having a ‘not quite right’ Buffy but that Willow may have killed or destroyed a not-quite-right Buffy.

    I consider that Spike was trying to make the point to Xander that the magic Willow used was very dangerous and that there was a real possibility that Buffy could have came back wrong – this doesn’t seem something that Xander thought about, that Buffy could have come back ‘wrong’. Of course, Spike is also making the point that he’s hurt and feels betrayed that the Willow group didn’t inform him of their plans.

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    Buffy's S6 arc is one of the shittiest things I've seen on TV.

    Wow, suicide really is the easy way out! Whodathunkit!
    Well, I’ve always assumed that Buffy believed that if she did off herself that she’d go back to heaven. Buffy went from being in heaven to being back on the Hellmouth not only having to be the Slayer again, but having to work to pay the Summers’ household expenses. And she was too ‘far behind’ to go back to school and take the classes that Willow was taking.

    Willow and Tara were able to pay their own expenses
    It’s strongly implied that Willow and Tara are freeloading.

    but they weren't ready to take on the expenses of a child that wasn't even their blood.
    They were living in Dawn’s house living off of Dawn’s inheritance and probably also living off of whatever support she gets from Hank Summers.

    Not to mention that we know that Buffy died without having seen Tara get her sanity back or confirmed that Spike survived his fall off the Tower.
    Buffy would have assumed that Tara was cured. And unless Spike was decapitated or got a wooden stake through his heart, Buffy would have assumed that Spike survived (that is if Buffy even thought about this or cared at the time she jumped whether Spike was still alive).

    Any paradise of mine includes passion and adventure and having all of my friends and family with me and the ability to strive for more.
    You’re not Buffy.

    I resent the show's insistence that I automatically agree that this where Buffy should have been as opposed to the Earth that I know and love and with the other characters on the show that I've come to love.
    The show obviously never does this as the audience wanted Buffy back.

    Willow, by S6, was fairly unprecedented as a powerful witch.
    In “Flooded” (6.04), Giles tells her that others could have done such a spell and that Willow wouldn’t want to meet those people.

    The finality of life argument gets its teeth to make Buffy the miserable, resentful malcontent that she's been from S6-9 […]
    I don’t know what you mean by “the finality of life argument”.

    As for “miserable, resentful malcontent”: this could apply to her in BtVS S1 and BtvS S5 as well. Pretty much outside of her ‘happiness’ with Riley in BtVS S4. Her life as the Slayer that makes her this way; and at least in BtVS S4, she had the Initiative helping her out and she got a ‘normal’ boyfriend that could slay her.

    Existing and then leaving a place so free of stress changed Buffy to her everlasting detriment.
    This is an argument for the Willow group having done a bad thing

    Willow could have taken the easy way out along with her co-conspirators in Tabula Rasa and not taken responsibility and done a Xander to say that there's nothing wrong with just being happy that Buffy is alive or done a Tara and say that they have to stop focusing on what they did wrong.
    Willow wanted to rape Buffy’s memory. Her response was far worse than Xander’s or Tara’s.

    However if Willow posed to Buffy before Buffy's jump in The Gift that Willow with her proven track-record of ensouling Angel and bringing Buffy out of catatonia and restoring Tara's sanity may have a good shot at bringing a perfectly healthy Buffy back from death, I'm not so sure that Buffy wouldn't want Willow to try that even if her corpse may be zombified and need to be destroyed.
    Willow knows that Buffy fears becoming a vampire: surely Willow would know that Buffy wouldn’t want to be a zombie.

    However in the Bargaining situation where Buffy only expressed a prior interest in saving the world and her friends and acted grateful to be brought out of catatonia, the Scoobies were right to assume that Buffy would want to be brought back to do her part for the world past 20.
    Being brought out of a catatonic state and being torn from heaven are obviously not comparable. And Buffy decided to die instead of having Dawn die.

    If Shelia and Ira Rosenberg didn't accept Willow rejecting the Ivys that accepted her and packed her off to college, Willow would flove it if the gnag came to "kidnap" her back to Sunnydale and Willow wouldn't have to ask to be "kidnapped" from her current locale because Willow already expressed a desire to keep on helping to save the world.
    So, going Ivy is comparable to being in heaven? Anyway, Willow’s parents couldn’t force her to go Ivy. If they disowned her or whatever, Willow would have simply been given generous financial aid.

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    [Willow] gave Buffy more help around the house [than Xander did]
    This is completely illogical. Willow was freeloading. Xander got Buffy a good deal on a copper repipe and Xander was the one doing handyman and carpentry work in the house.

    [Willow] sacrificed more to make Buffy comfortable [than Xander]
    Are you referring to BtVS S6? because, again, Willow was freeloading and Xander was working on her house for free.

    _________________________________________________

    Anya plans on taking Buffy's failure to charge for delivery out of Buffy's paycheck (with Giles's support)
    Something similar is done with waiters.

    and discourages Buffy from what should been a cushy job that Buffy was pretty entitled to at the Magic Box
    Anya wasn’t discouraging her and other than nepotism, why is Buffy entitled to a job that the Magic Box didn’t even need?

    Anya turns discovering Dawn's stolen items into huge screaming drama when it didn't need to be, designed to humiliate both Summers girls.
    Anya didn't like Willow stealing her profits and so she wouldn't like Dawn doing even more stealing than Willow did.

    She tries to go for the cowardly option of her/Xander/Willow/Dawn hiding out in the Magic Box instead of going out to protect Dawn in Bargaining,
    If I remember correctly, the ‘meeting up place’ was the Magic Box and they were without Spike and the Buffybot.

    She's awful about Buffy's Doubmeat job- "tools of labor", "here to support your subsistence employment"- and I think a fair amount of that was catty superiority.
    None of the Scoobies seemed to care that Buffy was working such a crappy job. Anya suggested that Buffy charge to save people and did an accounting of Buffy’s expenses. Anya was far more helpful than Willow and Tara. As for “catty superiority”, without Anya, Giles’ business would have probably failed: it seems Anya handled all the financial aspects – including accounting – and whatnot. And Anya was already a part owner of the Magic Box. She was willing to have Buffy be an employee there even though Buffy wasn’t needed.

    Although I do notice that Xander and Anya’s ‘blind date’ for Buffy at Buffy’s birthday party is an underling of Xander’s.

    I don't recall any babysitting Dawn or helping out with chores at Casa de Summers in S6.
    Spike was babysitting Dawn and when did Willow or Tara help out with chores? Again, Willow and Tara were freeloading and that includes room, board, and food.

    She tries to manipulate Buffy (along with Dawn, Willow and Tara) into wishing horrible deaths and mutilations on Xander which would have just heaped more misery on Buffy to satisfy Anya's vengeance kick to say nothing of Anya depriving Buffy of a friend and comrade as Anya, makes another permanent commitment to evil.
    Xander dumped her at the altar: why aren’t you putting any blame on Xander?

    Past Buffy's resurrection, all Anya really does for Buffy is suggest that Buffy charge for slaying,
    And apparently that makes so much money that one can live in an 9-figure house and give 3 employees middle class Angeleno lifestyles and makes one have the ability to spend thousand of dollars on clothes and vacations for someone.
    Spoiler:
    And what is the Slayer bodyguard company and Slayer private military contractors if not other forms of the Angel Investigations idea.


    back Xander up that Giles is being unfair to make Buffy face Sweet alone,
    This is also not a small thing as Giles’ stupid idea would have killed Buffy were not for Spike saving her life and Xander telling Sweet that he had summoned him.

    try to set Buffy up with Xander's friend in Older and Far Away (although she was catty and superior when doing that too)
    Again, why aren’t you including Xander in this? The Scoobies – barring Tara – thought that Buffy had been single this whole time.

    and Anya is a help when Willow goes evil (even though Anya said she was doing that for Willow's sake).
    Anya is very helpful and without Anya, Andrew and Jonathan would have been killed by Willow (although given BtVS S7, BtVS S8, and BtVS S9 so far, that may have been a good thing for them to have been killed).

    Plus, general stuff when a Scooby is present- attending Buffy's party, sitting at the table when researching, etc. Pretty lame showing, particularly since Anya's life was going really really well until the end of Hell's Bells.
    Anya did more for the group and for Buffy than Cordelia chase did and perhaps it can be argued that she did more for the group and for Buffy than Oz did.

    the failure of Anya and Giles to provide a cushy nice job for Buffy at the Magic Box is really low because I feel like Buffy *earned* a nice, cushy job there as the "family's daughter".
    Giles and Anya did give her a job. Buffy quit that job and seemed to have too much pride to go back to that and so instead worked a fast food job. It seems simply that Buffy didn’t want to work for Anya.

    It is off topic but I consider that especially considering what we learn of Giles in BtVS S8, Giles should have at least given Buffy all the money he earned from the Council after “Checkpoint” (5.12) since he wouldn’t have gotten any of that money were not for Buffy demanding he get that from them. That would have been probably hundreds of thousands at that point. I also consider that Giles should have set up a trust for Buffy.

    ________________________________________________

    Willow knew that she was going to be Osiris's plaything in front of her friends and may not survive the process.
    According to what?

    I do think that another "selfish" reason you didn't mention was the power vacuum. The political structure of the gang was way off without Buffy being the leader.
    Willow seemed to be the leader of not only the Willow group but the larger group that included Giles and Spike. Even the Buffybot is programmed to go to Willow and seems to be programmed to view Willow as the leader.

    I find it interesting that Xander leaped to a, "Who made you the boss?!" argument against Willow, implying that she didn't throw around her Boss of Us title much during the summer.
    I found it interesting that it seemed that Tara was ‘second in command’.

    However, Willow did throw around her power and clarity of mission re: the resurrection and that bred resentment from the Scoobies and co-existed with the contempt that Willow always gotten from her friends and Tara making for a dysfunctional leader-followers dynamic.
    We only see Willow “throw[ing] around her power and clarity of mission re: the resurrection” in “Bargaining” (6.01). We don’t know what she was like from after “The Gift” (5.22) to “Bargaining” (6.01). Secondly, the “Scoobies” still include at least Giles at this point. Thirdly, where does this come from: “co-existed with the contempt that Willow always gotten from her friends and Tara”?

    Spike was yelling at Willow like a lazy employee of his for not de-programming the Buffybot of all romantic feelings toward him.
    I wouldn’t go that far re: the lazy employee thing. But I do agree that Spike didn’t view himself as subordinate to Willow.

    Anya and Xander were spoiling for grievances over Willow directing them with telepathy even if it produced a win. Tara doing her usual playing with how much she can control Willow. "Let's see if Willow listens to me enough to not go over the Buffybot's programming before the Buffybot accompanies Dawn to school as Dawn's guardian in front of like fifty parents!"
    It’s not as if Buffy had an ironfisted control over the Scoobies.

    Everyone would just really rather have charismatic, chosen-y universally respected Buffy as their leader.
    I don’t know about that. Those like Spike and Giles would certainly rather follow Buffy than follow Willow, but the Willow group seemed to be fine with Willow as leader and someone like Tara may have preferred Willow being leader.

    And Willow can get a thrill out of short-term leadership but she never feels comfortable being a Boss because she's chronically insecure
    Willow has always stepped up into the leadership role when Buffy wasn’t available and already in BtVS S2 (“Reptile Boy” (2.05)) she puts Giles and Angel in line when they are bickering about Buffy going to a frat party.

    and Willow likes the freedom of being the unobserved mind instead of the paragon.
    Willow in BtVS S5 was saying she was more powerful than Buffy and could do more damage to Glory than Buffy could. In BtVS S6, Willow eventually literally kicked Buffy’s ass.

    My quote: I do not "hate" Willow. Willow is in my Top 3 favourite characters and I have a great deal of affection for her, actually. So you couldn't be further off the mark.

    Say what you will. I'm not going to argue with you about whether you like the Scoobies/Willow or not but all I do is read posts and determine how the author of the posts feels. You've consistently expressed very hostile viewpoints on Willow and you were condemning the Scoobies for the resurrection more than even the show does.
    Being critical of characters and their actions doesn’t mean that one hates those characters. And it’s perfectly fine to hate a character as long as one is still objective about that character and that character’s actions. By that same point, it’s perfectly fine to love a character as long as one is objective about that character and that character’s actions.

    I expected that Joyce would have some money saved-
    She did. The house was completely paid for and all her medical bills were paid for. Joyce didn’t expected that in her 40s or whatever that she’d die from brain cancer. And Buffy and Dawn’s inheritance was being spent on the Buffybot, Willow, and Tara: all things that Joyce didn’t know would happen. I always assumed that Hank was sending some support and was paying Buffy’s credit card bill. But he wouldn’t have been paying for Willow and Tara’s expenses and he wouldn’t have been paying for the Buffybot.

    It's a genuine fact of canon that Buffy was being deprived of information on what was going on earth while in heaven.
    The word “canon” should only be used to describe absolute fact in the Buffyverse. There was no scene or implication that Buffy was “deprived of information on what was going on earth” because there’s no scene of Buffy in heaven asking for such information or Buffy telling anyone she did or Buffy in an inner monologue saying she did.

    For one, many books and stories describe people in heaven as concerned with the lives of the loved ones they left behind and feeling awful that they can't help them. In fact, I can't think of a heaven story where the protagonist felt as disassociated, uncaring and finished with the people that she left behind. Buffy is an outlier in Heaven Lore.
    This is all irrelevant: it has nothing to do with the Buffyverse.

    I mean, I get that the writers think that being deprived of information and placed in some placid peace of isolation is paradise and viewers should not be allowed to question that and they should just take it as a fact that this cold, isolated, static, lying heaven is perfect and it's the worst tragedy that Buffy has to...you know...live like the rest of us shmucks.
    Do you go out every night fighting monsters? Is your life constantly in danger? Are you charged with the entire world’s safety? Do you have an unpaid job that guarantees a brutal death in your 20s? I consider that it seems you are not even considering Buffy’s viewpoints and perspective.

    On the level that viewers were not allowed to observe Buffy's heaven and judge its oh so important value in Buffy's story.
    What’s important is what she says to Spike in “Afterlife” (6.03) and how being in heaven effects her from “Bargaining” (6.01) to the end of “Grave” (6.22): we didn’t need to actually see her heaven. We didn’t need to see Angel in that hell dimension either because we know his reactions to it.

    On the level that the story glorifies death for twenty year olds as the right and natural order of things
    This is simply fallacious. Buffy committed suicide because she couldn’t bare going on as the Slayer if her magically-made sister had to commit suicide. Buffy died as the Slayer.

    still expecting us to feel bad when Tara dies.
    Tara dies because Warren shoots Buffy with a gun and one of the bullets accidentally hits Tara: it’s almost the exact opposite of why Buffy died.

    On the level that Buffy is the hero for saying that life is the hardest thing and them condemning Dawn to that while she gets off scot free to die
    How was Buffy ‘getting off scot free’ that she was in such an emotional and physical place because of her life as the Slayer that she committed suicide? And the implication here is that it would have been better for Dawn for Buffy to have let her commit suicide.

    The story is disgusting and ruins the whole series if you take the Death=Good, Living=Bad straight reading.
    That’s far too simplistic and doesn’t even apply. The story here is that Buffy deserved to be in heaven, she was torn out of there by her selfish friends who wanted her back, that she was suicidal and was more than reasonably not handling well that she’s back in Sunnydale having to be the Slayer again and now she’s needs money to pay bills and expenses, and relatively quickly she’s fine and able to move on from the trauma of being ripped out of heaven and having to life such a life.

    Plus within the show, Buffy's resurrection is just as unnatural as Buffy magically having Key blood even though she wasn't born that way and then jumping into all of the portals of the universe to be killed with mystical energy.
    Actually, this is near ‘canonically’ untrue. The monks created the Key from Buffy, so Buffy’s ‘DNA’ or whatever being able to close the hellmouth does make sense. And with the “death is your gift” thing, Buffy went to heaven and saved the world in the process therefore getting herself a gift and the world a gift. Buffy’s resurrection resulted in what the First Evil did and tried to do in BtVS S7. And the resurrected Buffy now wasn’t human enough for Spike’s chip to work on her. Both those things are more unnatural because they weren’t supposed to be able to happen.

    None of what they did was as dramatic a gesture of feeling responsible as Willow's look of devastation in OMWF and her taking all guilt in Tabula Rasa and making it a subject of her self-loathing in Villains.
    But she should feel more responsible because of the fact that she is more responsible for tearing Buffy out of heaven.

    Self-loathing and crippling guilt weren't feelings that Willow earned,
    Yes, they were.

    nor were they feelings that helped anyone.
    Only because she went the ‘dark Willow’ route and then had to stop using magic because she couldn’t use it in a healthy way.

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    All intuitions that life is better than death and it's a tragedy when young people die and heroes are better in the world than out of it are chucked out the window than S6 to fit some pro-death, mentally disturbed, "need vampire penis to get through the world" bullshit nihilistic vision of the writers. Nope, no subtly there.
    I consider that you are not appreciating at all Buffy’s life as the Slayer.

    the Scoobies were dealing with pretty much all of the externals that she dealt with [in BtVS S6]- financial insecurity,
    Xander and Anya had enough money that Giles says they should buy a house. Xander was already a supervisor or whatever and Anya was already part-owner of the Magic Box. And Willow and Tara was freeloading off of Buffy’s and Dawn’s inheritance.

    Granted, none of the Scoobies didn't have Spike literally or idiomatically up their asses but Buffy wanted that shit.
    Um, you complained in this thread about vampmogs being ‘hostile’ to Willow and yet here and the “need vampire penis” things shows clear anti-BtVS S6 Buffy/Spike bias.

    I don't think the Buffyverse universe is that nice. A innocent baby was taken to Quortoth; young children work themselves to death in Ken's factory hell dimension. I just can't believe that it's the honest truth that the Scoobies would go to heaven.
    Connor, those kids, and Buffy in “Anne” (3.01) were physically forced into those dimensions. They didn’t die and had their souls go to those dimensions.

    Dying and getting to heaven at twenty can't be the main event of happiness on this show while the show still expects us to mourn for Jenny and Tara and Fred and all while actually thinking of Buffy's jump as a sacrifice instead of a Get Out of Jail Free Card.
    Jenny was murdered by Angel to prevent her from re-cursing him, Tara was killed by a stray bullet meant for Buffy, and Fred and her soul were completely destroyed in the ‘resurrection’ of Illyria. Buffy’s death saved Dawn’s life and saved the world. While Buffy did commit suicide instead of having Dawn commit suicide, Buffy deserved to go to Heaven instead of continuing her life as the Slayer.

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    As a matter of fact, the idea of having powerful Willow resurrect a person from a magical death so that person can live out a good lifespan on their own terms came up twice- with Buffy in S6 and Fred in AtS S5. In S6, the idea was used to bash Willow for resurrecting Buffy; in AtS S5 it was Angel and his crew snitting about Willow was astral projecting and wasn't on speed dial to bring back Fred. Really, really fair...except not.
    Buffy’s a Slayer and so at this time “good lifespan” doesn’t apply and; actually, there is no difference between BtVS S6 and AtS s5 because Giles refused to contact Willow to get her to help Angel and Co.

    I'd use the more simple and common moral calculus that as the "next-of-kin"
    DAWN is Buffy’s next of kin and the Willow group didn’t inform her of their plans.

    This show just missed Buffy coming to a similar and utterly necessary realization that it's better to be alive than dead despite life's problems and headaches.
    This happens at the end of “Gone” (6.11).

    Buffy is in a strange position in S6 but also in S7-8 where she thinks that life is horrible and undeserved punishment for herself but good and required to be lived fully by others.
    Simply not true for BtVS S7-8 and she never describes it as “undeserved punishment” in BtVS S6.

    I feel like the story wants us to believe that Buffy was entitled to a beautiful release from being concerned about her friends or parenting Dawn or figuring out jobs or higher education and it sucks that she had to get back to that.
    Dawn would have been dead.

    I guess I just don't think that Grave and S7-9 do nearly enough to disabuse the audience of the earlier message that death is better than life for Buffy.
    I consider you miss the point of the Slayer and what Buffy’s life as the Slayer has been like and that you minimize how Buffy felt in heaven.

    Grave was missing Buffy actively saying that her life is better than heaven or at least at this stage in her life.
    That would have been ludicrous to say the least.

    The last two episodes are structured as Buffy being totally unable to sell the positives of life to Willow
    As Dark Willow, no one could have.

    I've never been convinced that S6-9 Buffy gets the genuine enjoyment out of friends or a higher purpose or sex or the chance to make a career for herself that make her stand up and shout that she wants to live and it's way better than being dead.
    Buffy genuinely enjoyed having sex with Spike. And, again: “Gone” (6.11).

    If the Monks didn't give Dawn to Buffy and Buffy died and went to heaven after falling in another battle, Buffy would have committed a fully selfish suicide and that's a fact.
    This argument doesn’t seem to be based on the reality of the show. Buffy tells Giles that if Dawn dies that she’s quitting being the Slayer. If the Key weren’t her sister, a lot of BtVS S5 would be different. And is your situation Buffy letting Glory kill Buffy?

    I would have been tickled if Buffy said that on further reflection being in heaven is like going to a very nice nursing home in her twenties- very peaceful and stress free with her meals and transportation and rent and furniture provided but exceptionally limiting to get to full days of Bingo and shuffle-boarding before she's done anything. Good for folks in their 70s and 80s but not for folks in their 20s.
    Her heaven was nothing like “a very nice nursing home” so it would have been absurd for Buffy to express such a thing.

    Anyway, I don't take the word of talking hamburgers, talking cats or talking eyes as gospel.
    I don’t remember the talking cat but the talking hamburger was correct: it’s not its fault that Wesley didn’t ask any follow up questions.

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    Xander was the only one arguing with Willow right up until Willow, again doesn't "guilt-trip" him, but convinces him that resurrecting Buffy is the right thing to do.
    She does ‘guilt trip’ him about having reservations.

    In some ways, Willow is a better gal than I. Once Giles got out his, "You're a very stupid girl" after his abandonment and his need to name-call before discussing anything, I'd be matching him "*******" for every stupid girl and *****tard" for every "rank amateur".
    Willow didn’t even inform Giles of their plans to do the spell and yet it having been successful she’s very smug with him and wanting appreciation and saying that he should be impressed with her. Also, Giles has more years of experience with magic and would perhaps be more knowledgeable about the possible consequences of doing such magic. I also assume that Giles didn’t know that the Willow group had been planning the resurrection spell when Giles was still in Sunnydale. Giles had every right to yell at her because she should have informed him of their resurrection spell plans and he should have been involved in those discussions and should have been involved in the decision over whether to do the spell.

    And I believe that Anya/Tara/Xander squirelled their way out by never admitting the slightest complicity when it counted- after they found out that Buffy in Heaven.
    This is untrue: the entire Willow group was in that opening scene in “Tabula Rasa” (6.08).

    Everyone would have been happier if they had confidence in their original supposition that they gave Buffy a wonderful gift in continuing her life because life is a wonderful gift instead of devouring each other with guilt and sadness and Blaming the Willow.
    After “Tabula Rasa” (6.08), what “devouring each other with guilt and sadness and Blaming the Willow”?

    Instead they (because the text is doing the same) indulge Buffy's hatred of them and hatred of life as an accurate reaction to the facts instead of the mental illness and character flaw that it is.
    It’s not a “character flaw” that Buffy wasn’t happy that she was torn from heaven; her depression stemmed from her being torn from heaven; as for the Scoobies, it’d be incredibly disgusting if they didn’t feel any guilt over tearing her from heaven.

    ________________________________________________

    *Xander* refuses to take Willow's orders to hep resurrect Buffy and *Anya* followed by *Tara* remind Xander that he'd better fall in line because Willow is the Boss.
    That didn’t happen: they merely remind him that she is their leader.

    their vague power structure that still should allow for plenty of dissent against Willow
    You JUST said that “Anya* followed by *Tara* remind Xander that he'd better fall in line because Willow is the Boss”: these two things seem rather incongruous.

    Anya's statement- "ANYA: And you think of this now?!!" is troubling
    Willow was the one doing the spell and she didn’t seem to inform the others of the specifics of that spell. And Willow seemed to be the main and most vocal cheerleader of doing the spell. Anya got the urn of Osiris. It’s possible that Anya would have assumed that Willow had done the research about what state Buffy would be in after a successful resurrection.

    My argument is that we have textual examples of all of the Scoobies doing the difficult work of considering the repercussions of the spell post-spell.
    Not really. Tara was still being a Willow apologist. Xander only first began to contemplate possible repercussions after Spike tells him things like magic always has consequences. And that’s not “difficult work”.

    Willow clearly knew that this spell could kill her
    According to what?

    Willow makes herself the locus of all darkness in the spell- the one to kill the deer, asking Osiris to test *her*.
    Willow is the witch performing the spell.

    The Scoobies, like every family member of a coma patient or patient who needs defibrillators to start up their heart, assumed that Buffy's state of mind would be that she would want to live and they needed to make that happen.
    Again, they didn’t ask Dawn or Giles. The Scoobies are her friends: Dawn and her father figure are her ‘family’. Hank Summers in ways has more right to such a decision than the Willow group does.

    Meanwhile, I don't think the fall out for the resurrection should have been about punishment and blame for the Scoobies at all. It was really counter-productive and unfair. People shouldn't be made to feel like crap for taking a chance on Lady Life.
    You seem to ignore that they didn’t even inform Dawn or Giles of their plans, that Willow kept details of the spell from the others, and that doing the spell could have caused a lot of badness (and did). Also, other than Giles being pissed at Willow for a few minutes and the beginning scene of “Tabula Rasa” (6.08) when the Willow group were feeling guilty: what punishment and blame? Relatively, Dawn and Giles ‘got past’ their betrayals extremely and possibly unrealistically quickly.

    Buffy hated everything that had to do with life.
    She didn’t hate all the sex with Spike.

    For at least a year but I'd argue that Buffy's hatred and contempt for life and people is an ongoing thing through 9.12.
    I consider this baseless.

    Buffy tried killing all of her friends and sister because she preferred the idea of her being in an asylum.
    That was partly because of the drugs.

    She liked the idea of dying from invisibility
    That’s untrue.

    she regarded herself as finished with life until Grave.
    That’s untrue.

    She was hacking at her hair and engaging in a self-destructive relationship.
    One can easily argue that her relationships with Angel and Riley were self-destructive. Her relationship with Spike literally kept her alive and was pretty much the only thing ‘going for her’ until “Grave” (6.22) when she decides that she’d like to see Dawn grow up to be beautiful and powerful. A point to all of that was sex with Spike was a ‘good’ experience that she maybe didn’t feel in heaven.

    If we're in the business of saying what behavior and attitudes wrong”, “Buffy's behavior was wrong.”
    Buffy handled the situation extraordinarily well.

    Not to mention that genuinely depressed people get medication to correct neurological chemical imbalances and/or they see therapists that try to move from a destructive outlook on life to something more positive. However, it ultimately is about "correcting" chemical imbalances in the brain or self-defeating attitudes.
    How would Buffy be describing her being ripped out of heaven and that she has to be a Slayer again?

    Again, if a person fell into a coma at 20
    Buffy wasn’t in a coma: she was in heaven.

    _______________________________________________

    People can change their minds: Anya getting the urn of Osiris and ‘handing it over’ doesn’t mean that Anya didn’t have reservations about the spell and it doesn’t mean that Anya didn’t later decide that doing the spell would be a bad idea.

    WILLOW: Xander, I can do this, I promise. But not without you.
    If anything, I consider Willow is referring to Buffy’s reaction to the spell if she knows that Xander was against doing it.

    Willow assumes that Anya will eventually go where Xander goes.
    According to what?

    However, just because Willow perceives that she can lose Anya's and Tara's votes because of Xander's visible fear of the resurrection
    Tara was being Willow’s cheerleader and ‘second in command’: I reason that Willow didn’t think there was about any possibility that Tara was going to vote against doing the spell.

    WILLOW: Nobody's changing their minds. Period.
    XANDER: Excuse me? Who made you the boss of the group?
    ANYA: You did.
    TARA: You said Willow should be boss.
    Anya and Tara are merely saying that Xander made Willow the boss of the group. There’s no implication that Anya (and maybe Tara) agreed that Willow being boss meant that Willow could make executive and/or authoritarian decisions.

    I agree that Giles had the right to be pissed and he had a right to confront Willow about the secret-keeping. Even though Giles did resign as a member of the group and basically asked for them to leave him alone,
    This argument is not based on reality. Giles was still patrolling with the Scoobies in “Bargaining” (6.01): Giles was still a Scooby in “Bargaining. The Willow group had been in existence for probably months by that time.

    However, I don't think that Giles had the right to lay into Willow as he did unless he wanted to destroy their relationship and make an enemy out of her.
    Willow is to blame as she kept the Buffy resurrection spell conspiracy from him.

    Even if Giles did decide that he was totally done with this bitch (which Giles probably decided),
    Where do you get this from? Giles was relatively lenient with her, he’s happy for Willow’s help in “All the Way” (6.06); they are a Scooby gang together in “Once More With Feeling” (6.07), etc.

    Giles's behavior was still dumb and impolite.
    That’s arguable.

    [quote And he was being unreasonable by continuing to lay into Willow even when she was trying to discuss this amicably. [/quote] Again, she didn’t even inform him of the resurrection spell plans.

    And if Giles genuinely felt that the Scoobies could have endangered the world or tapped into some hellbeast that could have dangerous repercussions, he should have subpenaed Willow's documents relating to the spell or asked for interrogatories with her, Tara, Anya and Xander to get to the bottom of whether they were safe.
    Maybe, but it’s possible that Giles didn’t think she’d hand over such information.

    The Scoobies had the opportunity to disabuse Willow of the idea that this was all her fault in their first scene together or the opportunity to stand with her instead of leaving her to face Buffy's rage alone in the second team.
    What Buffy rage?

    I never said Willow didn't deserve more blame, or for that matter, more credit.
    Obviously, Willow did deserve more credit and Anya deserved the second-most credit.

    Buffy angrily cried at Willow, no one else.
    When was this?

    Buffy punched the punching bag like she wished it was Willow
    This didn’t happen.

    Dawn yelled at Willow for giving and taking lives, no one else. Spike rained down mud on Willow's respect for Buffy's body, no one else.
    Both knew that Willow was the witch doing the spell.

    the members of Angel Investigations including Spike got to revile Willow behind her back for not being on speed dial to resurrect Fred after Willow proved that she can resurrect.
    This also didn’t happen. Angel was pissed at Giles and Spike never showed enmity toward Giles or Willow over this.

    _________________________________________________

    What the Scoobies did have was an aggregate of brushes with hell, including Acathala, Buffy in Anne
    Nothing suggests that the Scoobies know about the “Anne” (3.01) thing.

    I don't know what made this portal different than Acathala or Ken's portal to a factory below.
    Dawn – and then Buffy – was used to open and close the portal: they possibly weren’t able to actually go through it.



    vampmogs

    For instance, we were told back in Forever that "Wiccans took an oath long ago" not to resurrect people
    Who die from a natural death.

    We also have Spike’s accusation that Willow knew there was a risk that Buffy would come back wrong (so wrong she’d have to “get rid” of whatever she brought back) which, if true, is a pretty gross violation of Buffy’s mind and body, but it’s really up to the viewer to decide if they agree with Spike or not.
    It’d be perhaps worse if Willow was arrogant enough to not think that there was any risk.

    I think Willow always knew it was wrong. It’s why she keeps the specifics of the spell from Xander and Anya (because she knew they’d react badly to how dark the spell got – and with good reason) and even “the wine of the mother” from Tara. It’s also why she hides the entire plan from Giles because she knew he’d object to it. It’s basically the same as when Buffy kept Angel’s return from the gang – “You knew it was wrong seeing Angel or you wouldn’t have hid it from us.” The same is true of Willow’s secrecy.
    These are not comparable. Buffy didn’t do a dangerous spell to bring Angel back. Buffy kept Angel being back a secret because she didn’t believe that any of the Scoobies would be supportive of Angel being back. She believed that Willow told Xander to tell her to kick Angel’s ass, she knows that Xander doesn’t like Angel or his relationship with her, and Angel tortured Giles.

    Just want to add that the "Yes, because Buffy was needed for the slaying. The Buffybot is no substitute for the real Buffy" option is something that I find incredibly selfish, and not in the sympathetic way. People are complex creatures and I wouldn't hold it against the Scoobies if on some subconscious level needing back "the warrior of the people" didn't play at least some role in why they wanted her back, but if it were their primary motivation I would be absolutely sickened by them. And I'm grossed out by the suggestion it's a valid enough reason to resurrect her.
    Objectively, this is the most valid reason. Wanted their friend back is selfish and they admit that in “Tabula Rasa” (6.06). Needing the Slayer to protect the world is not selfish: it’s objective, rational, valid, and true.

    I’m seriously squicked by the suggestion people could keep digging her up again and again so she can continue killing for them.
    After “Bargaining” (6.02), none of them mentioned building another Buffybot and none of them mentioned having Spike be ‘the Slayer’. What happened was Buffy was expected to resume her Slayer duties, we no longer see the Scoobies slaying with Buffy, and she was also expected to be the sole provider for the Summers’ household.

    _______________________________________________

    Part of the reason the witches were said to take the oath not to resurrect people was because they saw death as the natural end. Buffy is the only person to have experienced what that feels like but then has to return to earth – and that in itself is “unnatural.”
    Well, he’s not a human, but Spike came back. And Wolfram and Hart employees like Holland Manners and Lilah Morgan came back (albeit they probably went to some hell dimension).

    She was definitely changed by it but I don’t think it had anything to do with mind control, it was more that she experienced the finality of death and then suddenly it wasn't so final anymore.
    It was about being in Heaven and then being back in ‘hell’.

    Buffy called Chris and Eric "ghouls" for messing around with dead girls.
    They were chopping them up to make a Frankenstein bride.

    Buffy was adamant that Joyce wouldn't want to have her corpse defiled and that Dawn shouldn't do it -- "Not to mum."
    That was before the fact. Buffy rushed to that door and wanted to see her mom.

    Of course she wouldn’t be happy with Spike keeping her around if she came back as some zombie-like creature
    Spike wouldn’t be ‘keeping her around’. Buffy would have the choice to kill herself. As-is, when Buffy’s back she’s not ‘human enough’ for the chip to work on her; so, she did come back ‘wrong’.

    Interesting question: how would Willow have reacted knowing that the chip didn’t work on Buffy? Buffy and Spike never told anyone that the chip no longer worked on Buffy.

    The world will never be rid of evil and that’s something Buffy knew way back in Amends.
    Huh? It’s not as if Buffy didn’t believe that the First Evil could be beaten.

    Who gets to decide that her 2nd death or 155th death is finally when Buffy has ‘paid her dues’ and the world can keep turning without her?
    I assume that if Buffy could be made immortal and still be able to have children – or after she’s already had children --, Buffy would do that if only because it would mean that she could be with either Spike or Angel forever.

    As Buffy once said, it’s wrong to define her by her Slayerness because she’s also a person
    She’s a person who in BtVS S5 chose to explore her Slayer side more. The Slayer is a large part of who Buffy is.

    ________________________________________________

    I'll have to save the rest for now, battery is about to run out on my phone.
    Wow, I consider it bad enough typing these posts on a laptop as the keyboard isn’t as ‘fast’ as a desktop’s keyboard. I shudder to think how long one of my posts would take if done on a smartphone!

    ________________________________________________

    Unlike the Scoobies, Buffy was clinically depressed throughout S6
    She was in some parts of BtVS S6. “Clinically depressed” literally means that she should have been in a mental hospital.



    kana

    As for the Utilitarian argument? That is to say "Yes, because Buffy was needed for the slaying. The Buffybot is no substitute for the real Buffy." ignores the possible unintended consequences of the the spell, especially on Buffy.
    There are possible consequences for not bringing Buffy back. And unless Willow could ‘age’ the Buffybot or make a new one after a certain amount of years it’s going to be obvious that the Buffybot isn’t human.

    Are Willow and the Scoobies too remiss to address this?
    Obviously they were.



    Local Maximum

    Buffy's picture of heaven is heavenly only because of her depression -- it's qualitiatively similar to her catatonic state in Weight of the World and the mental hospital in Normal Again, though it's much different in degree.
    She’s depressed because she wasn’t in Heaven anymore. A comparison to weight “Weight of the World” (5.21) would be a comparison to why Buffy is depressed not a comparison to how she felt in heaven. “Normal Again” (6.17) is about how her current relationships are. She wouldn’t have been so attracted to the mental hospital ‘hallucination’ (don’t know what to call it) if Spike had been nicer to her and if Dawn and her friends had been better to her and with her. Joyce and Hank being alive and together was an attractive reality to her given how messed up the Scoobies and Dawn were and that Spike wasn’t been nice to her and had already dated someone else (someone who would remind of Dru).

    Buffy didn't die of natural causes as a result of the human world; she died because of a hellgod.
    It’s technically a mystical death because Buffy died because of a mystical/magical reason: the portal is a magical thing.

    Giles never mentions that Jenny Calender could be brought back because a vampire snapped her neck. And similarly if Glory had decapitated Buffy by twisting her head off, Buffy would have still died a natural death.
    Spoiler:
    This is why the Warren thing in BtVS S8 is not a plothole because Willow magically killed him. Willow magically skinned him and that’s what killed him.


    _______________________________________________

    there has never been any confirmation in the 'verse that good people go to heaven and I didn't get any impression that it should happen then.
    No one believes that Joyce Summers went to hell. And given the peaceful look on her face as she dusted, it’s possible that somehow Anne Pratt (Spike’s mother) went to heaven. It’s been confirmed that in the Buffyverse humans have souls and the existence of heavenly and hell dimensions have been confirmed. And it’s strongly implied that good people’s souls go to heavenly dimensions when they die and that if they are made a vampire, that person’s soul goes into ‘the ether’ or whatever.

    Later on Buffy's heaven gets rewritten in Normal Again as being a couple of months in a lunatic asylum.
    This is simply iinaccurate. “Normal Again” (6.17) presented Buffy with the idea that before BtVS S1, Buffy was put into a mental intuition and that vampires and demons and such aren’t real.

    but what the lunatic asylum gives Buffy is a respite from her trauma, her parents' love, and being freed from the weight of responsibility. Those are the things that she got in "heaven."
    “Respite” implies that she knew all along that that reality wasn’t real. Even in the commentary, it’s not definitely said that that wasn’t the real reality and, certainly, in the episode itself Buffy begins to question whether her life as Buffy the Vampire Slayer actually happened.

    I ultimately think that the correct response to the whole spell is ambivalence.
    Maybe as pertains to whether it was a good thing to happen to Buffy. Because of how the spell affected Willow, the spell itself and the spell being done are not things to which the audience should be ambivalent. She becomes way too arrogant in her magic and her magical powers begin to fully define her. For instance, were not for the spell thing, Willow in BtVS S8 and her in BtVS S9, A&F, and what will happen in BtVS S9 Willow wouldn’t make as much sense. And of course the spell allowed Buffy to be back, allowed for it to make sense that she would distance herself from the Scoobies; it allowed for Buffy/Spike to happen.

    _______________________________________________

    the act of slaying was too big a challenge for them to handle
    They were handling things fine. They only got into trouble when it was known that there was no longer a Slayer in Sunnydale. But if Spike were with them – his priority was Dawn and so he didn’t bother going to find them – the Scoobies and he could have likely handled the biker gang.

    ________________________________________________

    if she did have that sense that the pain on Earth was bearable because there was heaven at the end of the rainbow, then that would make it very strange that she was so unhappy on Earth -- because surely whatever logic applied to her friends applied to her situation as well, right?
    No, because they weren’t torn from heaven and they don’t have to live life as the Slayer.

    ________________________________________________

    I also think that it's unfair to the gang to suggest that Buffy's mental illness eclipses all the things that made life hard for everyone else, but especially Dawn. I am not minimizing depression
    You’re minimizing Buffy’s being ripped out of heaven. Buffy was depressed in BtVS S2. What happened to Buffy far ‘eclipses the problems of the rest of the Scooby Gang. Regarding Dawn, Buffy could have let her die: Dawn was right to feel abandoned and her problems were more legitimate than the Scoobies’ problems but they certainly were not more legitimate than Buffy’s problems.

    _________________________________________________

    [Regarding “Grave” (6.22)] it's Buffy understanding that other people can carry the load along with her (Dawn, in particular -- but not having to stop Willow herself plays a big role as well)

    ………………...........................

    Buffy doesn't find it until she sees that Dawn can fight, too, that the trials of life can be shared with the person she died to both protect from life and to guarantee life too.
    All Buffy says is that pretty much she wanted to see Dawn grow up and that Dawn will grow to be beautiful and powerful. If it can be avoided, I don’t think Buffy was trying to make Dawn a demon fighter: she would have wanted Dawn to be able to protect herself, but we saw like one lesson in “Lessons” (7.01) and then we don’t see Buffy training Dawn again (unless I’m forgetting something).

    ________________________________________________

    (on Some Assembly Required foreshadowing, I feel a bit like Chris and Darryl's mother is a bit like Giles -- she spends her time watching videos of Darryl, neglecting Chris; he spends much of his time training the Buffybot rather than imparting his knowledge and experience onto Willow, Dawn and the others).
    I don’t consider this fair to Giles because he didn’t know about the Willow group or their resurrection spell conspiracy. Giles thought that the Buffybot was for the foreseeable future going to be the ‘Slayer’ in Sunnydale and so he had to train her. I reason that he left Sunnydale ultimately because – like Spike before – it became too painful to look at the Buffybot.

    ________________________________________________

    She could kill Angel and still believe that the world was a good place because, well, Angel was a vampire, and he was her first really devastating kill, and so on.
    Huh? She had to send Angel to hell or else the rest of the world, including Angel and her, would go to hell.

    Dawn is both the representation of humanity she has to save AND the person she has to kill to allow the rest of humanity to live.
    Dawn is her sister: it’s not more complicated than that. If it were someone like Ben that she had to sacrifice, she would have done that.

    She kills herself because that's preferable to having to decide between those two extremes.
    She kills herself because she knew that she’d go to heaven and continuing to live in the world as the Slayer after having her sister die a short time after Joyce died was not preferable to dying and going to heaven.

    Buffy would have, I think, let Dawn jump in The Gift in the end,
    I can’t think of a nicer way to say this: this is making up your own canon. Buffy died instead of letting Dawn die: that is the canon. In “The Gift” (5.22), that is what Buffy did.

    The issue in The Gift is centrally about the impossibility of protecting both Dawn and the world.
    No, it’s not. “The Gift” (5.22) is about the burden of Slayerhood and how that affected Buffy’s life and in a Season about Family it about that Joyce is gone, Hank was in Spain or something, and that Dawn would possibly have to die in order to save the world and that if Dawn was killed that Buffy was going to quit slaying because she could no longer emotionally handle it.

    a sister who is ALL THREE OF a construct designed to appeal to all her protective instincts, a literal duplicate of parts of herself that she loves and cherishes, and a person in her own right, and the whole world which she sees represented in that sister.
    I consider you are making it way more complicated than it actually is. Buffy views Dawn as her sister and her only real remaining family.

    The problem that she has in season six is that
    She was torn out of heaven by her friends and Spike beginning in “Once More With Feeling” (6.07) stopped being ‘nice’ to her. Her problems with Willow probably trump her problems with Dawn.

    Dawn is what drives Buffy into despair AND what pulls her out.
    I’d say it began with Joyce dying.

    _______________________________________________

    The primary model that the Scoobies have for this type of thing is Angel in s3; it’s why they worry that Buffy is in a hell dimension.
    Even if this is true, it makes no sense because Angel’s body and soul went to that hell dimension.

    It’s also why they see her body as basically irrelevant in the Big Picture. Angel came down from above and fell naked onto the floor.
    Nothing suggests that the Scoobies know this.

    I have trouble with the basic premise of the episode(s)—that Buffy’s soul got physically separated from her body and went into some other dimension because she passed through the portal and died there.
    Buffy died and therefore her soul went somewhere else. That’s one of the main points of having a soul: it goes somewhere else when one dies.

    then it is not so crazy that Buffy's essence will be given physical form as Buffy's body, soul intact, at the site of the ritual.
    We never see such a thing in the Buffyverse or have any real indication that the Scoobies even thought about where Buffy would actually be returned.

    Once you get used to the idea that the physical isn’t that important, it makes sense.
    Except that the physical is important: see vampires and zombies.



    Jack Shaftoe

    You can believe whatever you like but there is no evidence whatsoever that in the Buffyvers being good and righteous has anything to do with ending up in a heavenly dimension.
    Huh? So, you consider that someone like Warren could have gone to a heavenly dimension and that someone like Joyce could have gone to a hell dimension?

    Not to mention that if the situation were that cut and dry then Buffy's S6 dilemma is not a dilemma at all, she could have just killed herself again and gone back to "heaven".
    Buffy until like the end of “Gone” (6.11) was suicidal. She certainly believed that she would have gone back to heaven as if she thought she might have gone to a hell dimension, she wouldn’t have been suicidal.

    the heaven revelation wasn't supposed to be a (deeply stupid) plot twist.
    Why would Buffy’s soul have gone to a hell dimension? That would have been a deeply stupid plot twist that would have made no sense.

    My quote: Now *Spike* was self-righteously saying that if any part of Buffy came back wrong, he would want to keep those parts of Buffy

    I always wonder how he was going to achieve that. Chipped, remember? What was he going to do, hunger-strike?
    That’s a good point. He could have simply refused to patrol. They seemed to need him for slaying. He could have told Dawn.

    Describing Willow risking her life to resurrect Buffy as selfish has to be one of the most hilariously wrong things I have ever heard.
    First off, since when did Willow think that she’d be risking her life? Secondly, Willow in “Tabula Rasa” (6.06) admits she was being selfish.



    norwie

    From a story perspective Buffy has to live through her grand moment of self sacrifice (what comes after you won the Olympics?).
    Buffy committed suicide and I don’t see the Olympics analogy.

    Dissecting semantics to confirm/deny who loved the bestest and mostest and did the most altruistic things seems counterproductive to analyze and deconstruct the narrative.
    This is simply wrong. What Willow did and her reaction to her success is very important to the ‘narrative’ and the Buffyverse. Giles’ reaction of leaving the Scoobies because Buffy was dead and then leaving Buffy because she seemed to need him only for financial and familial support is also very important to the ‘narrative’ and to the Buffyverse.

    they also had very simplistic, self-centered reasons for trying to get "their" Buffy back. This doesn't make them "bad people" - it makes them human.
    If they thought she could be in heaven – which it seems is very possible to even likely – it does make them bad people.

    _______________________________________________

    So, if you're looking for the life affirmative, humanist message - look at "Grave", not "Bargaining".

    "Bargaining" sets up the conflict, and doesn't make a definitive statement towards death and life. The conflict gets resolved (as much as this conflict can be resolved, and future backsliding not withstanding) in "Grave".
    “Humanist” is a secular-based morality and really has nothing to do with this thread topic. All this talk about ‘death or life’ being better is a subject suited to “The Gift” (5.22) and therefore whether Buffy should have committed suicide or whether she should have let Dawn commit suicide. By the end of “Grave” (6.22), Buffy simply was by then able to ‘get through’ and ‘get past’ the turmoil of having been ripped out of heaven.

    On a wider note, I don’t see how Buffy can be fully ‘secular’ given the existence of such things as the Powers That Be, (Dark Ones?), gods and goddesses, higher powers, seers, vampires, demons, heavenly and hell dimensions, etc.



    Artea

    Having to rely on the argument 'but it's what the writers intended' basically says that the story can't stand on its own merits and that the writing is bad.
    Not necessarily. It could simply mean that some understand the story and others don’t. Like the whole “did Spike go for to get his chip removed or did he go to get his soul back” thing.

    Heck, you yourself are blaming characters for not knowing about the artifact from AtS S4, something that the writers wouldn't even conceive of until a year later, and on a different show no less, and therefore clearly couldn't have been part of the authorial intent of season 6 because the thing didn't even exist yet! You're just invoking authorial intent whenever it's convenient for your argument.
    The story continued after “Bargaining” (6.01) so such authorial intent arguments can be valid. Although, “authorial intent” sounds like “canonical” and it’s not absolute canon that Joss was saying that the Willow group should have been researching where Buffy could have actually been.

    We are told that the resurrection spell is 'dark magic', but we are never given a reason why.
    Did you not see the spell?

    _________________________________________________

    'Guardian woman who has been living in the Sunnydale cemetary for thousands of years'.
    She wasn’t living there. She also says the scythe was “forged … centuries ago, halfway around the world”.

    Nor did [Giles] (or anyone else) show any such concern when Angel, Darla, Spike, Joyce, the guys from 'The Zeppo' or anyone else was resurrected.
    Giles didn’t know anything about these resurrections.

    __________________________________________________

    And funny how the resurrections of Daryl, Jack and his friends, Angel, Darla, Spike and Joyce have yet to cause an apocalypse after all these years, but Buffy's resurrection supposedly triggers one within less than a year.
    Wolfram and Hart’s apocalypse revolves around Angel. Anyway, those examples aren’t examples involving a Slayer who had already died once.

    The First Evil was able to do what it did because Buffy’s resurrection had messed up the Slayer line.

    And didn't Willow resurrect Kennedy, who is a Slayer, in the comics? Shouldn't you be upset about that?
    We never got the details on that.

    I really don't want this topic to get bogged down in yet another fruitless debate about the Buffyverse's 'just pull it out of your ass' brand of worldbuilding. Though I have to ask this: can you really say the resurrection storyline is well-written when we are still busy trying to ascertain just the basic facts about what a resurrection does or does not cause?
    Some not understanding things don’t mean that the Buffyverse isn’t coherent or that the resurrection storyline doesn’t make sense.



    TimeTravellingBunny

    I don't think the show was ever trying to portray Willow and the Scoobies as bad guys for resurrecting Buffy,
    Depends on one’s definition of “bad guys”. The show certainly didn’t portray the resurrection conspiracy as perfectly okay and perfectly good and benign. If it was, then Giles and Dawn would have known about it, approved, and been included; we wouldn’t have seen Willow lording her power over Xander and Giles and threatening Giles; it wouldn’t have shown Willow keeping details of the spell even from Tara; possibly the magic or energy or spirit or whatever that was would have been white or blue or something instead of being orange for whatever; we wouldn’t get the vampiric imagery of Buffy crawling out of her grave; etc.; and, of course, we never get any implication that the Willow group even thought rationally about where Buffy’s SOUL would be.

    or arguing that it was better for Buffy to stay dead.
    Here’s the problem with using the word “ever”. Buffy was at times in BtVS S6 suicidal and/or clinically depressed. And the whole “Afterlife” speech is clearly Buffy saying she would have been better off staying in heaven.



    WhiteHat

    I hereby withdraw the word cruel and replace it with unintentionally injurious (emotionally and/or physically). I assume that TimeTravellingBunny is a lawyer, for only a lawyer would haggle so cruelly over semantic minutiae.
    Words have certain meanings. For me, unless something is said with obvious sarcasm and every reader would know it was sarcasm, I take everything said at face value.



    Blix

    Wasn't she where Cordelia was before she returned to earth
    No.

    Buffy's 2nd death "could" have triggered another slayer,
    The Slayer line went through Faith.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    What reduction? He added lover on top of best friend, confidant, mentor, etc.
    Sadly I think the physical side of their relationship took over. Spike saw it as a deeper, closer connection and focussed on it, thinking that he had got Buffy more by being in a sexual relationship with her. In actual fact it distanced them somewhat. His attempt to draw her into the dark with him (because he didn't feel he could join her in the light) and her fear of what she had come back as/her issues with what had happened to her started to tear them apart. It was such an abusive relationship as Buffy purely used him to feel, as he acknowledged he could see in hindsight in S7. It was sad because when she was first using him as a confidant and close friend when she first came back they were developing a supportive friendship and it was this that drew them towards being physical but being physical did in fact weaken their emotional connection. I find the S6 Spuffy fascinating and tragically sad because of their desires to be with each other and their need for each other that their insecurities and unhappinesses spoilt. Surely you don't see what they had in S6 as an entirely positive experience/relationship? The fact that the AR happened is contextual to how bad their developed dynamic became. Their connection changed because of it all, the Buffy who sat outside the magic box and told Spike about heaven was far removed from the one who beat the living daylights out of him in Dead Things.

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