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Thread: Why is Dru not dust?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    It means I don't think Buffy is ever going to announce that there can be "peace in our time" with vampires.
    It's not about "announcing peace", it's about weighing whether it's better to focus on the vampires attacking people and ignore the vampires that are drinking blood from people who want it and trying to appear like harmless and acceptable members of the society because they'd rather not be hunted all the time and risk dusting; or go after those vampires and destroy the reason why they're abiding, at least to an extent, the rules, which would mean that there's nothing to stop all those vampires from killing those fools who trust them and anyone else they get their fangs on. If you're gonna get hunted anyway, at least you can kill and torture and rape and enjoy yourself as much as you want!

    It's really not the point. The immutable fact of the premise is that there is no, and need be no, moral discernment about which soulless vampire one slays. If there was, Buffy is the most wanton murderer ever depicted in the series that bears her name.
    It really is the point - that the whole point of slaying is to protect humans, rather than to carry a religion-based or morality-based war against vampires. If the two clash, the former should always be the priority.

    I have no problem giving them credit for the MiB conceit (and Angel has espoused this, too, back in the day, and it's sort of the undercurrent to what little arc Dawn and Xander have thus far) that the world at large is a safer, dearer, happier place not knowing this shit.
    Why? You're the one saying that vampires can be easily exterminated if you just go public and convince people they're dangerous.

    Take "True Blood" -- it's more or less a given that human ingenuity really could pretty thoroughly handle the vampire problem, but the interest in doing so is highly marginalized by better PR.
    Granted, I've only seen the first 3 seasons of TB, but I really didn't see any evidence of that. They couldn't even handle Russell Edgington when he walked right into the news station, killed the anchor in less of a second, delivered his message and walked right out without anyone stopping him. Because, in his own words, "and now that you've seen how fast I can kill..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Shaftoe View Post
    She didn't have any bombs or flamethowers and was trying to be stealthy.
    It's easy to get bombs and flamethrowers. What the frak was the Council doing with all that money and resources?

    And why would Buffy try to be stealthy, if vampires are so easy to kill in a non-stealthy way? Because she would attract too much attention from the humans? So what? And if they're really so good at ignoring and rationalizing things that Buffy couldn't convince them that vampires exist and are dangerous, then why wouldn't they also ignore and rationalize whatever Buffy's doing?

    But it will eliminate the problem once and for all.
    What?! If you're ready to 'eliminate' i.e. kill humans just in order to "eliminate the vampire problem once and for all", that would make you a mass-murderer in making. Anyone sane and at least somewhat ethical wouldn't consider that. Maybe only some religious nut who hates vampires more than he/she cares about human lives, kind of a vampire-hunter version of Admiral Helena Cain with her 'kill all those puny civilians or let them die if it means getting to kill a few more Cylons'.

    Also, it's very easy to make sure woh is vampire and who is human - all you need is a mirror.
    So what would you do, arm an army or other armed force with mirrors and have them on night patrols, going to houses and nightclubs and hotels and parks and walking up to every person in the city and hold up a mirror to them? Good luck with that.

    Especially with the probability that the vampires (and some nutty humans, including those "government is always trying to control us!" folks) won't try to kill them immediately. Including shooting at them. Why wouldn't vampires arm themselves with guns? It's actually far easier for a vampire to kill a human from a distance with commonly available weapons, than the opposite: you'd have to produce wooden bullets for the vampires, and use them after you've figured out who's the vampire and who isn't by holding a mirror to them, while the vampires can just get regular guns and fire at you - and not even risk killing other vampires. And in a fight up close... vampires have the super-strength.

    In fact, if there's a really far-fetched premise in the show, it's that so many vampires are so tradition-obsessed that they wouldn't use guns against Slayers. Even those Texan cowboy-outlaw vampires and other vampires who were born in our times and might have used guns when they were humans?!

    Thanks to the invitation rule (is it still working, though, I am not sure?) most humans will be perfectly safe when they are at home even if there is an open war in the streets.
    Vampires can enter public places (such as schools, as we know from S2). Vampires can enter buses, planes, trains and other public transport vehicles. It's not that difficult to trick people into getting an invite - and once a vampire gets it, you're screwed - even before the breaking of the Seed, you'd have to know magic or be friends with a witch/warlock to be able to disinvite them, and now it's impossible. If I were a vampire, I could also easily think of the ways to smoke the humans out. Why couldn't a vampire use a bomb and throw it through the window? Why not use guns and shoot at people through the windows? Why not burn the house to the ground and catch the humans as they run away? Vampires are as able to use different types of weapons as humans are.

    That's why regular vampires would be far more dangerous enemies than these pathetic zompires. Regular vampires are as smart and capable as humans. Your tactics seem based on the idea that vampires are incapable idiots who wouldn't know how to anything to defend themselves.

    The only thing that keeps the Buffyverse vampires from being as dangerous as those from Being Human - who have infiltrated the police and other authorities - is that they're limited by not being able to walk freely in the sun. However, considering the fact that vampires have often been shown to walk through the day just with the help of a hat and coat or blanket over the head, that might not be such a big problem for them...

    I just don't think there are that many vampires in the Buffyverse to make the war a prolonged struggle. There will be human casualties but probably not many more than the number of humans killed by vampires in say five years of Harmony rules.
    I don't know how many vampires there are, but there must be many, many of them because they always kept coming despite several of them getting dusted by Buffy every night, and that was just in Sunnydale. Granted, there's Hellmouth there, but there are vampires all over the world. If Slayers are such a scourge of the vampire world, but each of them was still getting killed by some vampire or demon or other eventually, after just a few years of slaying, there's got to be lots and lots of them. Why even have the Slayer, instead of starting a campaign to exterminate all vampires, if there are so few of them?
    Last edited by TimeTravellingBunny; 14-06-12 at 01:22 AM.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

  2. #22
    Slayer Jack Shaftoe's Avatar
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    What?! If you're ready to 'eliminate' i.e. kill humans just in order to "eliminate the vampire problem once and for all"
    What the hell are you talking about? I didn't say anything about eliminating any humans. Strawman much?

    It's easy to get bombs and flamethrowers. What the frak was the Council doing with all that money and resources?
    Being useless, you know, its primary role in the show. And sure, it makes no sense for them to be as passive as they were but that's what we saw. The Watchers were perfectly happy to let their Slayer rely on Giles's limted book collection for information and the help of a few teenagers. Probably because the Council was retconned into existence in S3.

    And why would Buffy try to be stealthy, if vampires are so easy to kill in a non-stealthy way? Because she would attract too much attention from the humans? So what?
    Well, she would end up in jail because I doubt throwing bombs or using a framethower is legal, especially for teenagers...

    And if they're really so good at ignoring and rationalizing things that Buffy couldn't convince them that vampires exist and are dangerous, then why wouldn't they also ignore and rationalize whatever Buffy's doing?
    Maybe they would, I for one wouldn't have minded if Buffy was more heavily armed (it worked for Wesley) but the Sunnydale syndrome isn't an excuse to do everything including throwing bombs in a cemetery and hope no one bothers to notice. In any event we all know the reason Buffy or her enemies didn't use guns is mostly the rule of cool, so it's kind of pointless to try to justify it.

    So what would you do, arm an army or other armed force with mirrors and have them on night patrols, going to houses and nightclubs and hotels and parks and walking up to every person in the city and hold up a mirror to them? Good luck with that.
    It's better than doing nothing and hope the conscience that vampires don't have will stop them because they certainly don't respect laws, rules or anything of the sort.

    The only thing that keeps the Buffyverse vampires from being as dangerous as those from Being Human - who have infiltrated the police and other authorities - is that they're limited by not being able to walk freely in the sun. However, considering the fact that vampires have often been shown to walk through the day just with the help of a hat and coat or blanket over the head, that might not be such a big problem for them...
    Good luck infiltrating anything if you can be detected with a simple mirror.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Shaftoe View Post
    What the hell are you talking about? I didn't say anything about eliminating any humans. Strawman much?
    I said:
    I never said they would win, I said there would be a huge loss of human life that would probably be many times bigger than what vampires do right now.
    And you replied:
    But it will eliminate the problem once and for all.
    Sounds like you're saying that human "collateral damage" is perfectly acceptable as long as the vampires are eliminated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Shaftoe View Post
    Well, she would end up in jail because I doubt throwing bombs or using a framethower is legal, especially for teenagers...
    Better ending in jail than dying in a few years, which we were told is the usual Slayer fate. And wouldn't it be worth it to organize a bunch of people (there are quite a few of them who know about vampires, and the number was growing), get bombs and eliminate vampires? It's not like Buffy and the Scoobies couldn't mobilize an entire school to fight the Mayor.

    That is, if vampires were actually living in packs far away from humans - which they don't - so the bombs wouldn't end up demolishing the entire town.

    Maybe they would, I for one wouldn't have minded if Buffy was more heavily armed (it worked for Wesley) but the Sunnydale syndrome isn't an excuse to do everything including throwing bombs in a cemetery and hope no one bothers to notice.
    Throwing bombs into the cemetery would be really stupid, and Buffy could deal with most of those baby vamps anyway, especially since it was the easiest place and time to find them. Now throwing a bomb at the Factory or Angelus/Spike/Dru mansion or any such other vampire lair that was in an abandoned place or away from residential areas might have been something to consider.

    In any event we all know the reason Buffy or her enemies didn't use guns is mostly the rule of cool, so it's kind of pointless to try to justify it.
    If the government started using bombs and going into war with the vampires, I don't see why vampires would decide to be cool rather than not-dust and not use guns as well as bombs and any other weapon they could get their hands on.

    It's better than doing nothing and hope the conscience that vampires don't have will stop them because they certainly don't respect laws, rules or anything of the sort.
    That's really not addressing the issue. Doing something stupid, pointless and possibly counter-productive is not better than doing nothing.

    Good luck infiltrating anything if you can be detected with a simple mirror.
    Well, it worked for the Being Human vampires, I guess because you can easily avoid being close to mirrors if you want, and if nobody knows you're a vampire and wouldn't show in mirrors (it's more complicated how they got around the picture issue - they don't show on pictures, unlike the Buffyverse vamps, but we were supposed to think they had their ways to get around that). But that's possible due to secrecy - they did the infiltration before the public was anywhere near knowing about them. I was saying that the Buffyverse vampires aren't as dangerous because they have a severe limitations that they (mostly) can't walk out in the sun - not being able to walk freely during daytime is a much more severe handicap in the world-domination schemes than not being able to be around mirrors.

    Still, while they aren't likely to take over the world, the Buffyverse vampires would be hard to take on and eliminate without a bloodbath. Zompires are easier to deal with, since they are mindless and apparently tend to go in packs, another reason why the "zompires are so much more dangerous!" thing doesn't work. It should be easier to drive them out in the open, and they make no effort to hide or mingle with the population.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    Slayer Jack Shaftoe's Avatar
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    Sounds like you're saying that human "collateral damage" is perfectly acceptable as long as the vampires are eliminated.
    I didn't mean collateral damage but people killed by the vampires, not fellow humans. Sure, there would be victims to friendly fire but right now there are victims of vampires too, rules or no rules. One can't just delay the solution of a problem forever only because there will be a severe cost to pay in short term. Now, if it's true that an all out war will cost more human life than say a century of Harmony's rules, then maybe they are a good idea but I very much doubt this is the case.

    It's not like Buffy and the Scoobies couldn't mobilize an entire school to fight the Mayor.
    It's not like any of Buffy's classmates except for the Scoobies showed any desire to help her in the future, so what is your point? That she should rely on another such miracle of plot contrivance?

    If the government started using bombs and going into war with the vampires, I don't see why vampires would decide to be cool rather than not-dust and not use guns as well as bombs and any other weapon they could get their hands on.
    Of course they wouldn't, I never said they would be that stupid, did I? They would still be hopelessly outmatched.

    Well, it worked for the Being Human vampires
    And I am sure it will work out for the Buffyverse vampires if the writers want it but I am speaking from a not so meta perspective. There is no way a vampire can infiltrate anything important if any suspicious idiot can catch them in one minute by using a pocket mirror. If there was a quick and sure way for identifying spies, nobody would be spying ever because it would be suicidal to do so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Shaftoe View Post
    I didn't mean collateral damage but people killed by the vampires, not fellow humans. Sure, there would be victims to friendly fire but right now there are victims of vampires too, rules or no rules. One can't just delay the solution of a problem forever only because there will be a severe cost to pay in short term. Now, if it's true that an all out war will cost more human life than say a century of Harmony's rules, then maybe they are a good idea but I very much doubt this is the case.
    Well all I can say is that I disagree completely.

    It's not like any of Buffy's classmates except for the Scoobies showed any desire to help her in the future, so what is your point? That she should rely on another such miracle of plot contrivance?
    My point is that, if exterminating vampires were that easy as you make it sound, Buffy and co. were idiots not to try it in Sunnydale. And you can't just write off plot points with "this one was stupid", "this one was contrivance".

    Of course they wouldn't, I never said they would be that stupid, did I? They would still be hopelessly outmatched.
    Again, lots of lots of people would die and it's still unlikely that vampires would be exterminated in any near future since such a task is extremely difficult. Unless the scientist come up with some biological weapon that exclusively targets vampires.

    And I am sure it will work out for the Buffyverse vampires if the writers want it but I am speaking from a not so meta perspective. There is no way a vampire can infiltrate anything important if any suspicious idiot can catch them in one minute by using a pocket mirror. If there was a quick and sure way for identifying spies, nobody would be spying ever because it would be suicidal to do so.
    This was brought up when I casually mentioned that the Buffyverse vamps are more limited and therefore less dangerous than the BH vamps, who have already infiltrated the police force and authorities before anyone knew about vampires and had any incentive to go around putting mirrors to their faces. So I'm not sure why we're even discussing this - I never said they would infiltrate police forces, politics etc. (The Being Human vampires started an all-out war in order to take over the Earth, which the Buffyverse vampires certainly won't.)

    But they don't need to for the humans to have huge difficulties in "exterminating them". They don't live on some remote island or in a desert, but in cities and villages among humans; detecting them with mirrors is a silly idea since you'd have to walk up to every one of the billion people on Earth and put a mirror to them, before they snap your neck, if they are indeed a vampire - and that's just if vampires don't do the logical thing and get guns and start shooting at you before you can even come close; you can't kill them with guns (unless a new industry of wooden bullets is started), and bombs and flame-throwers are far less precise. Even with guns, let alone bombs, chances are a lot of humans would get caught in the crossfire, not to mention that vampires could take them hostage. The only way all that would be made easier is if vampires were stupid enough to announce themselves and gather in packs with no humans around. Which may be the MO of these zompires, but not of regular vampires.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    I'd just like to gauge what people's views are on this. Why does Angel not dust Dru? Is it simply a family connection, guilt or does he not want to destroy his greatest creation?
    The writers aren't going to dust her because she's an easy, go-to problem/villain that has connections to more than one character and has a history as an antagonist. In short, she's useful. The writers will keep her as long as she's convenient for them.
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    All caught up

    _________

    I’m not discussing whether vampires in general should be dusted: that’s another thread topic.




    Stoney

    My quote: Also, there’s always the Spike factor. If Angel killed Dru, Spike would kill Angel.

    First off, this statement definitively decrees that Spike would and could just kill Angel.
    Spike would beat Angel in a one-on-one fight. But currently Spike has his bug ship and the bugs.

    I don't think that Spike would kill Angel for dusting Dru.
    Nothing suggests he wouldn’t.

    So he doesn't do it/doesn't want to do it until he decides that he has a good enough reason to do it. Dru kills all those lovely innocents Angel is always brooding about protecting, there I have found a reason for him.
    Angel didn’t try to kill Drusilla in BtVS S2. Angel set Drusilla afire, didn’t actually try to kill her in AtS s2. A&F makes it even less likely that Angel would ever try to kill Dru.

    My quote: * Other than that, she’s a popular character, Juliet Landau is interested in writing for the character, she’s still a possible romantic interest for Spike, etc.

    Giles was a popular character that Joss felt only stayed relevant in his death.
    Giles’ popularity decreased after BtVS S6 because he abandoned Buffy, the Scoobies, and Dawn. His popularity decreased further in BtVS S7 because of his attitude toward Buffy/Spike and attitude in general and then it decreased further because of his involvement in trying to murder Spike. I assume he became even less popular in BtVS S8 given his not giving Buffy vital information.

    By the way, of course, these are ‘production reasons’ for why Drusilla isn’t killed. But the ONLY reason that Angel is still alive is because of production reasons. Buffy and Co. in BtVS 8.40 wanted nothing to do with Angel and it seems Faith is the only reason why Angel is still alive.

    Dru I find has had very little progression
    This has been fairly true since BtVS S2. But if Angelus, William the Bloody/Spike, and Darla can be ‘redeemed’, why not the one who wanted to be a nun?



    Local Maximum

    Probably she is going to go kill people now that she's crazy again -- and in that sense, maybe Angel should have killed her.
    Angel’s responsible for making her insane again, and if she kills again, that’s Angel’s fault. Angel shouldn’t have threatened to kill the Lorophage demon.

    But as long as the Harmony rules are in place, vampires are presumptively following them. Dru should be staked if and when she actually breaks them.
    Angel should be dusted. It’s extremely beyond hypocrisy for Angel to try to kill Dru for killing people when Angel was going to allow the entire planet and everything in and on it to be destroyed.

    There's also 3) which is that Angel probably couldn't get to Dru in time to actually stake her when the whole room full of people were attacking.
    Dru would probably beat Angel.

  9. #28
    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    This has been fairly true since BtVS S2. But if Angelus, William the Bloody/Spike, and Darla can be ‘redeemed’, why not the one who wanted to be a nun?
    Because it gets boring I suppose.

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    I seriously LOL'd at the suggestion that Angel wouldn't kill Dru out of, um, a fear of Spike!? Oh good lord where to begin...

    So, Angel's brave enough to wage war against the Senior Partners, to go toe to toe with a PTB, to go through the demon trials to win Darla back her humanity, to fight Faith, to attack The Beast, to fight an Old One, and jumps at the chance to slay a dragon... but he's too scared to dust Dru because SPIKE had him shaking in his boots!?

    Angel isn't afraid of Spike. In Harsh Light Of Day he spends time trying to track Spike down -- "You think you can come to my city and pull this crap?" And MikeB, I don't understand where you get off being so presumptuous that Spike would beat Angel in a fight or that Angel thinks he would. Destiny was the first time EVER that Spike had defeated Angel. That's text. And ever since then they've looked pretty evenly matched. There is absolutely no certainty either way that one could beat the other.

    Oh, and I don't think for one moment that Spike would attempt to kill Angel if he dusted Dru. WTF?
    Last edited by vampmogs; 18-12-12 at 11:22 AM.
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    This is my response that I wrote for the BtVS S9 News Thread but am putting it here:

    Any argument for why Drusilla should be killed is beyond silly if not accompanied by the argument that Angel should have been killed in 8.40 and maybe also that Willow should have been killed in 8.40 given what Buffy knows becomes of Willow’s future. It’s frankly deplorable that Darla got to be redeemed, that Angel gets chance after chance to be redeemed, that Spike (who wanted to be a vampire) got to be redeemed, and yet the vampire who was going to be a nun and who is only evil because Angel made her crazy and turned her is talked about by some posters as if she should be dusted, and be dusted by Angel no less. One of the nice things in A&F was Angel not being an extreme hypocrite in regard to Drusilla.


    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    I seriously LOL'd at the suggestion that Angel wouldn't kill Dru out of, um, a fear of Spike!? Oh good lord where to begin...
    Whenever I see such a thing it makes me wonder whether the poster somehow thinks Angel vs. Spike is somehow like Glory vs. Spike or Illyria vs. Spike.

    This is an A&F thread, so "Destiny" (A 5.08) already happened and Spike later on informed Angel that Spike's been rusty (meaning he was rusty in his fight with Angel). Angel may or may not suspect that Spike may have actually been able to hurt a full-powered Illyria. As-is, Spike in "Destiny" clearly wasn't at full power until much later; unless one wants to argue that Angel is stronger and more powerful than Glorificus and that's why Spike's bruises and such from "Destiny" lasted longer than the torture from "Intervention" (5.18) had.

    And if AtF is canon,
    Spoiler:
    Illyria would kill Angel if that's what Spike wanted.


    Spike has his spaceship. That spaceship killed a bunch of demons simply by crashing into them. It could crash into Angel and dust him.

    So, Angel's brave enough to wage war against the Senior Partners,
    With the help of his Fang Gang, Illyria, and Spike.

    to go toe to toe with a PTB,
    What choice did he have? Angel also had no idea how powerful Jasmine was outside of her having been able to get people to love her.


    * Stuff from AtS before the Jasmine 'reveal' could be because of Jasmine.

    to fight an Old One,
    With Spike, and, again, because he had no other choice.

    and jumps at the chance to slay a dragon...
    Angel had assumed that they all were going to die. And his saying that he was going to slay the dragon doesn't mean he actually believed he could.

    Angel isn't afraid of Spike. In ["In the Dark" (A 1.03)] he spends time trying to track Spike down -- "You think you can come to my city and pull this crap?"
    Why didn't you mention what happened after that? Angel was about tortured to death by a vampire that Spike hired. In BtVS S2, if not for Buffy and Kendra teaming up, Angel would have died in "What My Line Part II" (2.10?). If Angel had done the recon alone, he would have been killed in "Surprise" (2.13).

    And MikeB, I don't understand where you get off being so presumptuous that Spike would beat Angel in a fight
    Canon. Spike when being just-corporealized and after having been drank from beat Angel. And Spike was rusty. Spike's killed two Slayers. And if AtF is canon
    Spoiler:
    Spike was doing just as well in the fight as still-Hamilton power-infused Angel.


    or that Angel thinks he would.
    First off, Angel would remember that Spike beat him the last time they fought and maybe that Spike was rusty when that happened. And, again, Spike wouldn't even have to fight Angel. He could have Illyria kill Angel. He could have the bugship kill Angel. And Angel would know these things.

    Destiny was the first time EVER that Spike had defeated Angel. That's text.
    First off, that's something Angel said, not something's that's automatically canon. Angel's a known liar. Secondly, aside from "In the Dark" (1.03) -- in which Angel had a bleeding mouth and Spike was perfectly fine --, the only time we saw them fighting is in the "Fool For Love" (5.07) flashback when Spike wasn't even a year old and Spike was simply trying to goad Angel into being more like Spike.

    Oh, and I don't think for one moment that Spike would attempt to kill Angel if he dusted Dru. WTF?
    Spike still loves Dru. And after what Angel did in BtVS S8 it wouldn't take too much for Spike to determine that Angel should be dusted and then dust Angel.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________

    Finally, Drusilla would probably beat Angel in any fight anyway. And Drusilla would probably kill Faith in any fight. So, it would have to be Angel and Faith against Dru in which case Dru could simply run away (or given her prescience, not be in that situation in the first place).

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    It’s frankly deplorable that Darla got to be redeemed, that Angel gets chance after chance to be redeemed, that Spike (who wanted to be a vampire) got to be redeemed, and yet the vampire who was going to be a nun and who is only evil because Angel made her crazy and turned her is talked about by some posters as if she should be dusted, and be dusted by Angel no less.
    I find it extremely funny how you get all indignant about Angel killing people and yet so defensive every time the idea that someone should stop Drusilla from killing more people comes up. Or how you insist that Spike or Buffy would have been right to kill Wood and Giles after Lies My Parents Told Me but dusting Drusilla is out of the question. Drusilla being a nun before becoming a vampire isn't any consolation to the thousands of people she has murdered and would keep on murdering unless someone stops her.

    And no matter how many times you say it, canon still holds that Angel or Willow or any other person with a soul is far more likely to be redeemed than Drusilla is, so your argument that killing her would be as (un)justified as killing them is wrong.
    Xander: "Willow, you are the best human ever! I adore you! Well, that's the cookies talking, but you rock!"

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    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    Whenever I see such a thing it makes me wonder whether the poster somehow thinks Angel vs. Spike is somehow like Glory vs. Spike or Illyria vs. Spike.
    Oh believe me, I wonder the same thing about you and your complete and utter bias towards Spike. You are completely incapable of judging things in an objective manner.

    This is an A&F thread, so "Destiny" (A 5.08) already happened and Spike later on informed Angel that Spike's been rusty (meaning he was rusty in his fight with Angel).
    But wait! Spike's a known liar so why should we take anything he says at face value!? Isn't that the line you always use against Angel?

    Angel may or may not suspect that Spike may have actually been able to hurt a full-powered Illyria.
    So in other words you're just making stuff up. Angel is never shown "suspecting" this even once so I'm going to completely dismiss this as another one of your fanwanks.

    As-is, Spike in "Destiny" clearly wasn't at full power until much later; unless one wants to argue that Angel is stronger and more powerful than Glorificus and that's why Spike's bruises and such from "Destiny" lasted longer than the torture from "Intervention" (5.18) had.
    If it were the other way around I guarantee it this is exactly what you'd be saying about Spike. Regardless, you have no canonical proof whatsoever that Spike wasn't at his "full power" during that fight so, sorry, but I guess Angel really did just wound Spike badly. You can come up with any fanwank that you like but despite what you like to believe, it's not "canon" and it's not going to convince anyone.

    Spike has his spaceship. That spaceship killed a bunch of demons simply by crashing into them. It could crash into Angel and dust him.
    You think Angel would be scared of Spike because of his bug ship? Angel frequently took on W&H who have far more resources at their disposal then Spike's bug ship. Heck, they CREATED Spike's bugship! Angel has never been one to shy away from an opponent just because the odds aren't stacked in his favour.

    With the help of his Fang Gang, Illyria, and Spike.
    What difference does this make? Angel made the plan and Angel designated himself to take on Hamilton alone. Hamilton beat Illyria to a pulp and Illyria was by far their strongest warrior. So the idea that Angel's brave enough to take on Hamilton but too cowardly to take on Spike is ridiculous.

    What choice did he have? Angel also had no idea how powerful Jasmine was outside of her having been able to get people to love her.
    I didn't see him running away from her when she punched him off a building and tossed a car at him, did you?

    With Spike, and, again, because he had no other choice.
    You honestly think for one second that Angel wouldn't have went up against Illyria if Spike hadn't been there?

    And his saying that he was going to slay the dragon doesn't mean he actually believed he could.
    Um, so? You claimed Angel would be too afraid to dust Drusilla because he's scared of Spike. Even if Angel didn't believe he could actually slay the dragon you don't deny that he planned to try. So using your logic, Angel's brave enough to try and singlehandedly fight a dragon which he doesn't think he can beat but he's too scared to anger Spike. Yeah, right

    Oh, and Angel seemed quite confident that he could slay the dragon

    Why didn't you mention what happened after that? Angel was about tortured to death by a vampire that Spike hired.
    LOL. You actually want me to mention the fact that Spike couldn't beat Angel on his own and hand to resort to taking on Angel two against one? Ok, then.

    And I notice that you didn't address Angel taking on Faith, or the Beast, or the demon trials, or choosing to go back into the underground fighting ring, or the demon warrior holding Jasmine's real name etc.

    Canon. Spike when being just-corporealized and after having been drank from beat Angel.
    Oh, please. Harmony barley got her fangs into Spike before he shoved her off. And we've seen vampires heal from far greater wounds than two tiny puncture wounds.

    First off, Angel would remember that Spike beat him the last time they fought and maybe that Spike was rusty when that happened.
    Actually, the last time Angel and Spike fought Angel was a PUPPET and he beat Spike's ass. Do you not recall Angel pummeling Spike in the elevator and leaving him with a bloody nose and lying on the floor?

    Now, if I were talking to a more reasoned person I would use this as evidence that there's really no consistency whatsoever when it comes to characters and their strength. But since I'm talking to somebody who uses every little thing against characters he despises and who uses any little detail to try and prove his favourite characters are awesome and amazing, I guess Puppet!Angel really was just stronger than Spike. Puppet!Angel beat Spike's ass. How humiliating!

    Oh, and in Power Play Angel took on Spike, Wesley, Gunn and Lorne all at once and actually gained the upper hand. He also easily ducked Spike's swing in NFA and had him by the throat as Hamilton walked in. So, no, there's nothing definitive whatsoever about Destiny and it doesn't prove whatsoever that because Spike beat Angel once he's automatically going to beat him again.

    First off, that's something Angel said, not something's that's automatically canon. Angel's a known liar. Secondly, aside from "In the Dark" (1.03) -- in which Angel had a bleeding mouth and Spike was perfectly fine --, the only time we saw them fighting is in the "Fool For Love" (5.07) flashback when Spike wasn't even a year old and Spike was simply trying to goad Angel into being more like Spike.
    I love how you try and spin In The Dark in favour of Spike. Spike ran way from Angel. Spike enlisted the help of another vampire rather than face Angel one-on-one again. He obviously wasn't confident that he'd be able to beat Angel on his own and had to resort to getting help from Marcus instead. To use one of your favourite phrases, it's "beyond silly" that you'd try and use that episode of all episodes to prove that Spike is superior to Angel. If he was so superior and if he could have bested Angel in a fight then why take the cowardly approach and hire another vampire to help overpower Angel?

    And spare me rejecting anything Angel says because he's a "known liar." How convenient for you to dismiss Angel on that basis considering Spike has lied on many occasions too and yet you have no problem accepting what he says at face value (he was "rusty" etc). And I'm seriously laughing at you expecting anybody to take your fanwanks as some kind of "canon" (Spike was weaker because Harmony bit him etc) but blatantly dismissing actual dialogue that doesn't suit your bias.

    Spike still loves Dru. And after what Angel did in BtVS S8 it wouldn't take too much for Spike to determine that Angel should be dusted and then dust Angel.
    If Spike tried to kill Angel for dusting a soulless vampire then he wouldn't be much of a hero himself. Regardless, it would never happen because Spike would never be so moronic to try.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 02-01-13 at 01:42 PM.
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    The ONLY reason Drusilla is not dust after all these years is plot armour.

    I think the end of the "Daddy Issues" arc has the best reason for Drusilla being undusted: in the chaos she managed to escape. I can believe that. I prefer that explanation to other episodes where characters just let her escape for no reason or don't bother to make sure she's been finished off properly.

    I do laugh at the idea of Angel being too scared of Spike to ever attempt to kill Drusilla. There are so many things wrong with that idea it's laughable.

    Also, any character right now has the moral authority to kill Drusilla. She evil, crazy and has recently killed. I don't believe anyone exists who doesn't have the "right" to put a stake in Drusilla.

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    Slayer MikeB's Avatar
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    Jack Shaftoe

    I find it extremely funny how you get all indignant about Angel killing people and yet so defensive every time the idea that someone should stop Drusilla from killing more people comes up.
    It’s because the talk is about Angel being okay to dust Drusilla. Unless Dru goes to Heaven and she is reunited with her family that Angel murdered, I don’t want her dusted. But I have said that it would be okay for Buffy or Faith to dust Drusilla (if they could best her). I’ve said that after BtVS S8, for Angel to even consider it would be disgusting hypocrisy.

    Or how you insist that Spike or Buffy would have been right to kill Wood and Giles after Lies My Parents Told Me but dusting Drusilla is out of the question.
    Again, by Angel.

    Drusilla being a nun before becoming a vampire isn't any consolation to the thousands of people she has murdered and would keep on murdering unless someone stops her.
    Again, even a souled Angel cannot be trusted and has proven to be more dangerous than Drusilla. Drusilla hadn’t been killing and she had been helping people (those people obviously weren’t being helped by medication or treatments that the medical community gives them). Angel however had tried to destroy the world and all its inhabitants barring Buffy and himself.

    And no matter how many times you say it, canon still holds that Angel or Willow or any other person with a soul is far more likely to be redeemed than Drusilla is, so your argument that killing her would be as (un)justified as killing them is wrong.
    I didn’t say it would be unjustified. I said it’d be disgusting hypocrisy.

    As for justified, Slayers attacked her and she killed them. I maintain that she has the right to defend herself, especially since she’s only a danger again because Angel killed the Lorophage demon.

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    Your idea that Drusilla was legitimately helping people with the Lorophange demon does not line up with the text of the story, nor does it line up with the writer opinions. Drusilla was not legitimately helping people, she was using their trauma to feed her pet and she was doing it so that she could get free blood and groupies. She was using those people and essentially lobotomizing them. Angel was quite correct when he said that Faith had become something *less* when she stopped feeling guilt over killing the vulcanologist. Having your trauma sucked out by a demon is not a natural or healthy way of dealing with it. Not to mention that some of the people Drusilla released back into society after the Lorophange had been at them were still crazy and a threat to society.

    The moral position of the Buffyverse has always suggested that it's okay to kill vampires on principal. Buffy has killed many a vampire who has never hurt anyone. If you think that Drusilla has the right to defend herself against a Slayer by using lethal force, then Angel *certainly* has the right to defend himself against the Lorophange demon. That's what Angel was doing when he killed the demon, he was defending himself.

    I still don't follow your logic that Angel shouldn't be allowed to kill Drusilla because Angel's Twilight stint was worse that anything Drusilla has done lately. By that logic, Angel shouldn't be allowed to kill any vampires. Do you think Angel has being hypocritic when he killed the vamp that was about to snack on Nadira? What about when Angel kills zompires? These vampires haven't done anything as bad as Twilight, what right does Angel have to dust them?

    Do you have a problem with Spike dusting vampires who have done less evil than him? Because Spike has been doing that since his first episode.

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    Slayer MikeB's Avatar
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    Vampire in Rug

    * The “text of the story” is “that Drusilla was legitimately helping people with the Lorophange demon”.

    I remember that Christos Gage’s opinions includes that Angel was redeemed before A&F S9 began and that somehow Willow is eviler than Angel is. Both those opinions are directly opposed to canon.

    Drusilla’s followers weren’t “essentially lobotomize[ed]”. Again, such a regard is grossly insulting and disparaging towards anyone who could helped by the Lorophage demon.

    So what if Drusilla may have had some selfish motives for helping her followers. Angel had selfish motives for not wanting Faith ‘cured’. He wanted Faith to feel guilty and continuing to help him.


    * Drusilla’s followers were only perhaps dangerous again because the Lorophage demon was killed, which is Angel’s fault.

    The moral position of the Buffyverse has always suggested that it's okay to kill vampires on principal.
    The moral position of the Buffyverse is the killing of vampires and demons is based on cost-benefit analysis. Buffy’s dusting the vampire whores was considered dark and disturbing.


    * Angel should have been dusted after BtVS 8.40. I reason Drusilla wanted to cure Faith and then have the Loropage demon make Angel content. Angel should then be ‘Angelus’ and Faith would dust Angel.


    * Angel should have dusted himself after BtVS 8.40 if no one else was willing to do it. Drusilla has NEVER done anything as bad as what Angel did in BtVS S8. In addition, Angel was part of the Judge and Acathla things.


    * Post-BtVS 8.40, comparing Spike and Angel regarding ‘goodness’ is beyond laughable.

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