View Poll Results: What do you consider to be canon and what not

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32. You may not vote on this poll
  • Angel After The Fall - canon

    18 56.25%
  • Angel After The Fall - not canon

    1 3.13%
  • Angel AtF - They're a rough guide, I accept the outline as canon.

    11 34.38%
  • Spike After The Fall - canon

    15 46.88%
  • Spike After The Fall - not canon

    5 15.63%
  • Spike AtF - They're a rough guide, I accept the outline as canon.

    8 25.00%
  • Lynch's Spike 8 issues - canon

    13 40.63%
  • Lynch's Spike 8 issues - not canon

    1 3.13%
  • Spike 8 - They're a rough guide, I accept the outline as canon.

    14 43.75%
  • Anything that has Joss' name on it is 100% canon, otherwise it is not.

    7 21.88%
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Thread: Canon or not?

  1. #21
    Slayer MikeB's Avatar
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    Nothing's canon unless Joss says it is canon.

    Having Joss's name on it would mean that Long Night's Journey is canon.

    I consider the choices too limiting. I don't know what -- if anything -- is canon from AtF , Spike: AtF , or Spike . And AtF seems to make Spike: Asylum canon.

    And so far in BtVS S8 and 9 and A&F, I haven't had to discuss things from the IDW stuff.

  2. #22
    Arbiter of Canon Vampire in Rug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    People are debating it because Joss, Allie and Dark Horse have been very vague about it and haven't made it clear one way or the other.
    Writers and editors from both IDW and Dark Horse have said that "Angel: After the Fall" is canon. I posted some quotes from Christos Gage and Scott Allie in a thread a few months ago, they were quotes from a SlayAlive Q&A session and both Allie and Gage both mention (or at the very least, strongly imply) that "After the Fall" is canon. Certainly nobody has ever come out and said that they are not canon. Regardless of how people may feel personally about ATF, there is more evidence suggesting that these comics are canon, than there is suggesting that they are NOT canon when it comes to statements by Joss, Allie, Gage, Lynch or Ryall. ATF has also been referenced in season 8 and 9. That's more acknowledgement than some plot elements from AtS ever received from BtVS.

    Someone from Slayalive (can't remember who) put it quite well. They found it ironic and a little weird on the fandom's differing attitudes towards "After the Fall", versus "Angel & Faith". "After the Fall" was written primarily by Brian Lynch, however it followed Joss's outline and ideas for the characters. People are still debating whether its canon. "Angel & Faith" is written primarily by Christos Gage, however it's following Joss's outline and ideas for the characters. People accept A&F as canon without question. Where's the quote from Joss Whedon where he declares every single panel in "Angel & Faith" to be completely canon?

    Not everything with Joss's name is canon, that's not true. The 1992 Buffy movie has Joss's name on it since he's credited as a screenwriter, but he has retroactively decanonized it.
    That's a terrible example. The movie from 1992 came out long before the show and was never, ever, ever supposed to be canon with the TV series. The movie was de-canonized from the very first episode. The movie is completely its own thing and Joss has made no secret about how displeased he was with the movie and how it differed from his vision for the character.

    The old comic Angel: Long Night's Journey is generally not considered canon even though Joss himself wrote it.
    "Angel: Long Night's Journey" is set between episodes and doesn't really affect anything whether its canon or not. In a Q&A, someone asked Scott Allie whether this comic is canon. Allie's answer was that he is a little unsure and hasn't officially discussed it with Joss, but that he personally considers the comic to be canon because Joss wrote it. I consider it to be "why not" canon unless it gets contradicted. So yes, some people do consider A:LNJ to be canon. Like I said, it's set between episodes and doesn't affect anything at all, so it could very well be canon without harming or contradicting anything. For what it's worth, Joss did write it and some people do include it in the list of canon works. Plus, it's worth noting that at the time A:LNJ was written, the idea of "canon comics vs non canon comics" was not something that was discussed by anyone because the show was still airing.

    Canon is what he says is canon, and he's said nothing clear about the IDW comics. For it to be canon or "pretty much canon", he just has to say so.
    The same is true of "Angel & Faith", the "Spike" and "Willow" miniseries and "Tales of the Slayer/Vampire." I don't think there has ever been a Joss Whedon official and explicit blessing of canon for these works either, yet most people seem to accept them.

    Or at least unambiguously reference all the relevant plot points and characterization.
    As I said earlier, some stuff from "After the Fall" has been referenced in season 8 and 9. If you need every single panel or line of dialogue from ATF to be referenced in BtVS with a nod of approval, then that's never going to happen and its an unrealistic expectation. Certain stuff from AtS has never been referenced or acknowledged by BtVS and probably never will be.

    For it not to be canon at all, he just has to say so as well. Or to blatantly contradict some of the events and details.
    To my knowledge, nothing major has come along to blatantly contradict it yet. That said, small retcons can, do and will occur even within the same title under the same company.

    However, the route that Joss and Dark Horse seem to be taking is not say anything one way or the other, and simply ignore the plot points and developments from the IDW comics that did not come from Joss. For instance, you don't hear anything about Drusilla having been in the Mosaic, and nothing that happened in the Spike series seems to have had any bearing on her character.
    Of course. Even if the IDW events did happen within the canon of the Buffyverse, that doesn't mean that Dark Horse wants to advertise for a rival company when they do have the option of just keeping quiet and not referencing something that's not relevant to the story they want to tell. Not to mention that they wouldn't want to alienate readers who have not been following the IDW series or readers who do prefer to disregard the IDW stuff. After the split between the two stations when the shows were on TV the shows were very reluctant to reference each other unless Joss really pushed for it.


    Having read Spike, I really can't imagine that Joss would canonize the idea about soul exchange, not to mention characterization such as Spike believing that he was perfectly OK without a soul, or Spike looking up to Angel as the perfect hero and the most "evolved" person, which contradicts the characterization from the show (and the latter is the exact opposite of Joss' opinion; you gotta wonder if Lynch heard Joss' Write Environment interview where he used the word "more evolved" for Spike in comparison with Angel - the "evolution" panel from Spike #1 is either an incredible coincidence, or a deliberate stab).
    Joss has never really cared too much about the nuts and bolts of the soul. When it can be transferred into another person, when it can be kept in a jar, when it can be destroyed by an Old One, how a person can survive or act without one are all kind of fuzzy details. He's twisted the mythology himself when he's needed to. And sometimes when he didn't need to (Spike being drowned by the First Evil anyone?). I don't think the Spike/Drusilla soul transfer is anything to get hung up on, really.

    As to the other stuff, I can think of several different ways to interpret issues like the evolution chart or Spike's statements about no longer needing a soul.

    Personally, I see Joss overseeing Willow's dialogue as just a proof that Joss is very protective of Willow (he's supposedly called her his favorite character at some point, though I've never seen the quote), and wouldn't want to let Lynch screw her up as well, and in her case he could do something about it since IDW didn't have the rights to her character.
    For what it's worth, Joss didn't step in to oversee Willow's dialogue in any of the non-canon Dark Horse comics, or the video-games or the novels. If the "Spike" comic was meant to be considered 100% non-canon it shouldn't have mattered if Lynch screws up Willow's voice. I've seen many of the characters and events butchered in the non-canon works. In fact I think it might be fun to start a thread on it the non-canon works that were terrible.

    As for IDW not having the "rights" to her character... Everything I've read has suggested otherwise. IDW used a handful of (very) minor BtVS characters in their comics. They never had to get permission from Dark Horse. Nor did Dark Horse have to get permission from IDW to use AtS characters. My understanding is that, in theory, IDW would be allowed to have say, Xander running around in their books if they really wanted to. They didn't do that because (a) that's not they story they wanted to tell, their plans revolved around the AtS characters, (b) it would be too easy to make a mistake and screw up the timeline resulting in being contradicted by the Dark Horse books, (c) that level of co-operation between two rival companies is quite unusual, so a storyline that spanned both books/companies wasn't really on the cards, and (d) featuring a BtVS major character would essentially be advertising a rival book. But in theory, based on what the editors have said, there would be nothing stopping IDW from using a BtVS character. I suppose if Dark Horse wanted to, they go over their heads and plead an argument with FOX, and if FOX chose to, they could tell IDW what to do since FOX are the ones who own everything.

    You imply that Joss stepped in with Willow because her being a BtVS character was what gave him the opportunity to do so. I think that if Joss had approached IDW and told them that he wanted to oversee some of say, Gunn's dialogue, they'd have bent over backwards to accommodate him.

    As for Brian Lynch saying it's canon? I'm not assuming he's lying, I'm assuming that's what he likes to think. But him saying it's canon doesn't make it canon.
    For what it's worth, he's always kind of danced around the subject when asked if "Asylum" and "Shadow Puppets" are canon. Lynch knows (and hates) the canon debate pretty well. Personally, I believe he's right about the "Spike" series being canon until proven otherwise.

    Even Christos Gage, reputedly Dark Horse's "expert" on IDW AtS comics, has only said that he thinks that Angel: After the Fall is canon (and said nothing about Spike:ATF or the Spike series) but he's made it clear that Joss hasn't said anything on the matter and could say differently any time.
    I'm pretty sure Christos's quotes did further confirm ATF as canon. He did reference it in his book after all. Even if he only "thinks" they are canon, he's the current writer so it's a pretty safe bet that he's never going to contradict ATF.

    As for Joss being free to contradict ATF at any time, he's free to contradict whatever he likes at any time (and sometimes does), including previous issues of season 8/9, previous episodes or seasons.

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  4. #23
    Slayer TimeTravellingBunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire in Rug View Post
    Writers and editors from both IDW and Dark Horse have said that "Angel: After the Fall" is canon. I posted some quotes from Christos Gage and Scott Allie in a thread a few months ago, they were quotes from a SlayAlive Q&A session and both Allie and Gage both mention (or at the very least, strongly imply) that "After the Fall" is canon. Certainly nobody has ever come out and said that they are not canon. Regardless of how people may feel personally about ATF, there is more evidence suggesting that these comics are canon, than there is suggesting that they are NOT canon when it comes to statements by Joss, Allie, Gage, Lynch or Ryall. ATF has also been referenced in season 8 and 9. That's more acknowledgement than some plot elements from AtS ever received from BtVS.
    I'm pretty sure that the only thing stated is that it hasn't been confirmed without doubt as canon. Nobody is denying that is hasn't been confirmed as not canon.

    Someone from Slayalive (can't remember who) put it quite well. They found it ironic and a little weird on the fandom's differing attitudes towards "After the Fall", versus "Angel & Faith". "After the Fall" was written primarily by Brian Lynch, however it followed Joss's outline and ideas for the characters. People are still debating whether its canon. "Angel & Faith" is written primarily by Christos Gage, however it's following Joss's outline and ideas for the characters. People accept A&F as canon without question. Where's the quote from Joss Whedon where he declares every single panel in "Angel & Faith" to be completely canon?
    I dunno, maybe it's the fact that we've been told some 1000 times that Angel & Faith is under the same "Buffy season 9" umbrella, part of the same universe and of the same overall story?

    That's a terrible example. The movie from 1992 came out long before the show and was never, ever, ever supposed to be canon with the TV series. The movie was de-canonized from the very first episode. The movie is completely its own thing and Joss has made no secret about how displeased he was with the movie and how it differed from his vision for the character.
    That's "a terrible example" that not everything with Joss' name on it is canon as another poster claimed?

    Does he have to make it public if it's displeased with an IDW issue as well, for it not to be considered 100% canon?

    "Angel: Long Night's Journey" is set between episodes and doesn't really affect anything whether its canon or not. In a Q&A, someone asked Scott Allie whether this comic is canon. Allie's answer was that he is a little unsure and hasn't officially discussed it with Joss, but that he personally considers the comic to be canon because Joss wrote it.
    Thanks for making my point.

    To my knowledge, nothing major has come along to blatantly contradict it yet. That said, small retcons can, do and will occur even within the same title under the same company.
    Isn't that what I said? It hasn't been dismissed. It hasn't been confirmed. It's in the "fuzzy canon (?)" area.

    Joss has never really cared too much about the nuts and bolts of the soul. When it can be transferred into another person, when it can be kept in a jar, when it can be destroyed by an Old One, how a person can survive or act without one are all kind of fuzzy details. He's twisted the mythology himself when he's needed to. And sometimes when he didn't need to (Spike being drowned by the First Evil anyone?). I don't think the Spike/Drusilla soul transfer is anything to get hung up on, really.
    I beg to differ. If someone had to lose their soul for Angel or Spike to get theirs, isn't that something to be bothered about? Why hasn't anyone ever mentioned it?

    And what about when someone gets sired? They lose their soul, does it mean that someone else has to gain one? Does it also count for babies who get born - with souls, presumably, unless they're like Ryan? How does it all work? An exact number of souls and soul-balance is a concept that makes no sense whatsoever.

    As for Joss being free to contradict ATF at any time, he's free to contradict whatever he likes at any time (and sometimes does), including previous issues of season 8/9, previous episodes or seasons.
    Not really, he isn't. He can't contradict them, he can only retcon them, as you do with canon. When he screwed up with Warren, he admitted it was a screw-up and bothered to make up an explanation.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

  5. #24
    Bronze Party-Goer Lostsoul666's Avatar
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    One thing that I have noticed is that most of the fans who dismiss Angel After the Fall as non-canon are the ones who never liked Brian Lynch's writing in the first place.

    So what is it about Brian that makes some fans dismiss his work?
    Last edited by Lostsoul666; 15-06-12 at 12:30 AM.

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lostsoul666 View Post
    One thing that I have noticed is that most of the fans who dismiss Angel After the Fall as non-canon are the ones who never liked Brian Lynch's writing in the first place.

    So what is it about Brian that makes some fans dismiss his work?
    I get the impression it is characterisation and people seem to talk about him being overtly blokey and not giving the characters as much emotional depth.

  7. #26
    Bronze Party-Goer Lostsoul666's Avatar
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    Brian gave the characters a lot of emotional depth.

    In After the Fall we got some very emotional stuff.

    Vamp Gunn who was a complex character and another interesting twist on the vampires in this verse. He was a monster who hated the fact that he was a monster. He tried to believe that he was the same as human Gunn even though he had no soul.

    And Illyria tried to be Fred which is interesting for a character who looked down upon humans.

    And there was Spike After the Fall where Spike got his first chance at being a leader and failed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lostsoul666 View Post
    Brian gave the characters a lot of emotional depth.

    In After the Fall we got some very emotional stuff.

    Vamp Gunn who was a complex character and another interesting twist on the vampires in this verse. He was a monster who hated the fact that he was a monster. He tried to believe that he was the same as human Gunn even though he had no soul.

    And Illyria tried to be Fred which is interesting for a character who looked down upon humans.

    And there was Spike After the Fall where Spike got his first chance at being a leader and failed.
    I really am just going to have to get them and read them because all I hear are utterly contrasting accounts.

  10. #28
    Arbiter of Canon Vampire in Rug's Avatar
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    Apologies that this reply is so late. Not sure if anyone is still interested in having this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB
    Having Joss's name on it would mean that Long Night's Journey is canon.
    Some people (including Scott Allie) believe that Long Night's Journey is canon precisely because it has Joss's name on it. Whether or not LNJ is canon doesn't really matter anyway seeing as how it has near zero impact on the overall story. If it's canon, it's something that happened between episodes and wasn't referenced again. It can be canon if you want it to be or ignored if you want to. It has Whedon's name on it and Allie personally considers it canon. Make of that what you will.

    I consider the choices too limiting. I don't know what -- if anything -- is canon from AtF , Spike: AtF , or Spike .
    I don't know where this "if anything" is coming from. Whoever voted that Angel:AtF is 100% not canon is factually wrong. At bare minimum, and I'm talking absolute bare minimum for somebody who hated ATF and wanted to strike the story from canon, they should accept that the general gist of the story was canon much like how the Highlander movie is loosely canon to the Highlander TV series even though certain events have been changed and retconned. At the very least we know that Los Angeles went to hell, Angel fought demons, there was a dragon, things were "funky", and somehow Angel, Spike, Illyria and Gunn survived. Kate and Nina apparently became affiliated with the team at some point. Wolfram and Hart left this dimension at some point. This is the bare minimum of stuff that has been referenced or mentioned in the Dark Horse material. For somebody to suggest that the story is 100% non-canon in the sense that the older Dark Horse Buffy comics or the older IDW Angel comics are non-canon, this is factually wrong. At absolute worst, the general gist of ATF happened and has been nodded to.

    And AtF seems to make Spike: Asylum canon.
    I remember during a Q and A session Brian Lynch was asked if ATF made "Asylum" and "Shadow Puppets" canon. He said that it wasn't his place to give a definitive answer to canonize his previous works. But it was Joss's idea to include Beta George. So I suppose if you really want to, you can assume that Spike met George under different circumstances, but based on their interactions in ATF, I would guess that Asylum is possibly canon. Certainly Lynch had that in mind when he was writing their interactions. Doesn't hurt that Asylum was a pretty good story too

    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny
    I dunno, maybe it's the fact that we've been told some 1000 times that Angel & Faith is under the same "Buffy season 9" umbrella, part of the same universe and of the same overall story?
    We've been told by who? Joss Whedon? How do we know every single panel and every line of dialogue is canon and not just certain details of the story? Those are the questions people keep asking about ATF despite Joss providing the outline and Lynch/Ryall saing thousands of times that it takes place prior to, but in the same universe as season 8. Yes, obviously Ryall and Lynch want to sell their product... but so does Scott Allie who is the only one telling us "some 1000 times" that Angel & Faith is under the same "Buffy season 9" umbrella. Why is Allie's word good enough but Ryall's wasn't?

    Don't get me wrong, I do realize that "Angel & Faith" is canon. My point here is that the people who don't like ATF and want to deny its canon status demand a higher standard of evidence for ATF's canon status than has ever been provided for A&F. Let alone "Tales of the Vampires" and "Tales of the Slayers"; two books that have just been accepted as canon because they have his name on them. To my knowledge there has never been any kind of official statement from Joss on those books either.

    That's "a terrible example" that not everything with Joss' name on it is canon as another poster claimed?
    I didn't think I'd need to explain why the 1992 movie is non canon. When somebody says "everything with his name on it" they start from "Welcome to the Hellmouth" and go forward because that's where canon starts... unless you think people are trying to argue that "Avengers" and "Alien: Resurrection" are part of the Buffyverse canon too because they have his name on them? Seriously, nobody is arguing that. It's pretty obvious why the IDW comics, hell -*even the one's Joss didn't work on*, might be canon and fit into the continuity on a level that Alien Resurection on the 1992 Buffy quite clearly don't. So yes, trying to argue that the 1992 Buffy movie has as much right to be canon as After the Fall simply because it's got his name on it is indeed a terrible example.

    Does he have to make it public if it's displeased with an IDW issue as well, for it not to be considered 100% canon?
    He doesn't have to make any sort of statement on his pleasure or displeasure of the IDW stories. He could simply and respectfully declare them non-canon, fun as they may be if he felt so inclined. Or he could use his current story to contradict their stuff. He certainly doesn't have to thank IDW in the back of "Last Gleaming" or allow his name to be on the cover of an IDW book he doesn't approve of or reference elements of the IDW story in the next season... My argument is that there is more evidence in favor of them being canon than there is for them being non-canon. Regarding the 1992 movie, Joss wasn't shy about distancing himself from it, so why should he be showing this level of courtesy to IDW? He's never been afraid to steamroll over the stories of the novels, games or previous comics.

    I beg to differ. If someone had to lose their soul for Angel or Spike to get theirs, isn't that something to be bothered about? Why hasn't anyone ever mentioned it?
    To my knowledge it was never factually confirmed that this was the case with Spike and John. It could just be some horseshit that W&H fed John in order to set him up against Spike while they stole his soul in a different manner. It's been a while since I read the book, but from what I remember, Lynch said on the IDW boards that W&H weren't being completely upfront with John and John wasn't an expert on the supernatural. I think it's quite possible that he was being manipulated. Because the idea of one person losing their soul while Spike gains his does indeed seem kind of silly. Then again, we don't really know what methods the cave demon used. This one I'm not too sure of.

    Not really, he isn't. He can't contradict them, he can only retcon them, as you do with canon. When he screwed up with Warren, he admitted it was a screw-up and bothered to make up an explanation.
    I'm sure I could list a dozen times Joss has contradicted his own work without coming up with an explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney
    I really am just going to have to get them and read them because all I hear are utterly contrasting accounts.
    I'd be interested to hear what you think of ATF, Stoney. I know in a thread way, way back I said I'd recap some of the other IDW stuff for you, Emmie and King. I might get onto that someday...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire in Rug View Post
    I'd be interested to hear what you think of ATF, Stoney. I know in a thread way, way back I said I'd recap some of the other IDW stuff for you, Emmie and King. I might get onto that someday...
    Well I have Spike AtF, which I quite enjoyed and have started reading the Lynch Spike 8 which I am liking less. I think I am struggling with it because of the stupid bloody fish tbh, that has to be the worst character ever invented and totally is undermining the story for me, it is just such a distraction. Oh well. Angel AtF is due to arrive in a box set being released in August so I will let you know what I think of those when I have seen them.

    I have also got the Spike omnibus but haven't gotten round to reading those yet.

    My default position now is to generally treat IDW as outline canon, details perhaps not accurate or the best characterisations but general character journeys to be taken into account going forward.
    Last edited by Stoney; 09-08-12 at 12:12 AM.

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    Arbiter of Canon Vampire in Rug's Avatar
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    I thought it might be fun to do a quick recap of instances where elements from the IDW story were mentioned/referenced in the Dark Horse story:

    For me, the fact that Angel, Spike, Gunn and Illyria are even alive is evidence enough for me that -at bare minimum, the outline of ATF is canon. The show left these four characters in an alley facing off against an army of demons. The implication was pretty clear: they were gonna be killed. Gunn in particular had only minutes left to live. Clearly *something* happened to get our heroes out of that alley. If one doesn't want to accept ATF as canon, then I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to not know how our heroes made it out of that alley. That's a dangling plot question that's never going to be answered outside ATF.

    Something "funky" happened in LA.

    Twilight/talking dog mentioned Angel flying without "a dragon under his butt." What on earth could this be a reference to, if not ATF?

    Spike's bug ship. If you don't want to accept the "Spike" series as canon, it must be frustrating to never know how he acquired the ship.

    W&H have apparently left this dimension by the time of season 9. This did not happen in the show, they partially collapsed the building and then sent an army after Angel in the alley. In ATF, they burned up most of their resources sending LA to hell, so they vanished from this dimension, the LA offices completely disappeared. In the "Spike" comic, W&H came back, tried to have a crack at Las Vegas, were resisted by Spike and then tried to steal the bugship to escape this dimension again.

    There is one panel in the first issue of A&F clearly showing us Angel fighting demons in Hell-A.

    When Gunn is giving his recap on the characters he mentions Lorne, Kate and Nina. With Lorne, Gunn was deliberately ambiguous and gave as little information as possible. Last seen in IDW continuity, Lorne is dead. Nina only ever really became part of the team during ATF, so if one wants to disregard those books it would seem strange that Gunn would mention her. Even stranger would be Gunn mentioning Kate. When the show ended, Angel hadn't seen Kate in years. Why would Gunn include Kate in the list of people he's recapping to Angel alongside Lorne, Connor and Illyria? Nothing of season 5 suggested that Angel or Gunn were still in contact with Kate and it seems kind of weird that Gunn would just randomly mention somebody that Angel hadn't seen in years. In the IDW continuity: Conner meets Kate in ATF. She then becomes officially part of the team in Aftermath and the IDW ongoing.

    Gunn has no physical wounds and appears to be in great shape. "Not Fade Away" left Gunn wearing most of his blood on his clothes, and with a possible eye wound. IDW explained how he got better.

    During the Angel IDW run, Illyria left the group to discover her place in the world. In A&F, Gunn mentions her as still missing. In the IDW books, she goes to the Deeper Well and gets her old powers back. In BtVS season 9, she's got her powers back. If we don't get an alternate explanation, I see no reason why we can't accept the IDW explanation.

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    I decided to revisit this thread since the BtVS S9 comics seem to make canon some of the Spike stuff (at least some stuff from the IDW Spike miniseries) and some of the Illyria stuff (at least some stuff from Illyria: Haunted .) Everything from ATF and S:ATF is still possibly not canon.




    Vampire in Rug

    Whether or not [Angel: Long Nightís Journey] is canon doesn't really matter anyway seeing as how it has near zero impact on the overall story.
    If LNJ is canon,
    Spoiler:
    the soul Angel is given is not Liamís soul: itís the soul of a Ďchampioní fighter.


    Whoever voted that Angel:AtF is 100% not canon is factually wrong.
    Until itís made at-all canon, itís not factually wrong.

    At the very least we know that Los Angeles went to hell, Angel fought demons, there was a dragon, things were "funky", and somehow Angel, Spike, Illyria and Gunn survived. Kate and Nina apparently became affiliated with the team at some point. Wolfram and Hart left this dimension at some point. This is the bare minimum of stuff that has been referenced or mentioned in the Dark Horse material. [Ö] At absolute worst, the general gist of ATF happened and has been nodded to.
    Um, no. Angel, Spike, Illyria, and Gunn surviving doesnít mean that ATF happened. Kate and Nina becoming affiliated with the team at some point has not been referenced in BtVS S9 stuff. Wolfram and Hart leaving the dimension hasnít been referenced in BtVS S9. And if they did leave, that could simply be from the IDW Spike miniseries. And Angel saying things were ďfunkyĒ doesnít mean much. He could be referencing anything or could be simply lying to Buffy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    I decided to revisit this thread since the BtVS S9 comics seem to make canon some of the Spike stuff (at least some stuff from the IDW Spike miniseries) and some of the Illyria stuff (at least some stuff from Illyria: Haunted .) Everything from ATF and S:ATF is still possibly not canon.
    You are genuinely blind if you don't see the flaw in that reasoning. You can't treat as canon -- in whole or in part -- stories set after and in events and characterization based on prior works without collaterally canonizing -- in whole or in part -- those prior works to the extent they are referenced. There is a serious "you can't get there from here" problem with trying to treat some or all of Spike's bug-ship setting up miniseries, for instance, canon status when everything in Spike's characterization in that book is contingent upon him having actually gone through the events of the prior IDW books.

    In terms of your all-important explicit sanction by Joss, was there anything at IDW that enjoyed a more definite endorsement than the original "After the Fall" run? If anything, that's the most canonical of their entire run, given that he put his name to it and openly acknowledged that it was based on his own treatment for "Angel" Season 6 and he had an outline for it and such. If people want to start trying to parse out bits of IDW to poke holes in its canonical status, the last place you would start is "After the Fall".

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    I decided to revisit this thread since the BtVS S9 comics seem to make canon some of the Spike stuff (at least some stuff from the IDW Spike miniseries) and some of the Illyria stuff (at least some stuff from Illyria: Haunted .) Everything from ATF and S:ATF is still possibly not canon.
    Actually, it's generally agreed that After the Fall carries more canonical weight than Spike, and certainly more than Illyria: Haunted. Now, I personally enjoyed most of the IDW stuff and I take pretty much all of it on board as my personal canon. But if we are going to be drawing distinctions and speculating on what stuff from IDW is canon and what stuff is not, then ATF is clearly more canonical than anything else IDW has done. Joss had greater involvement with ATF than he did with anything else IDW put out and several elements of ATF have been mentioned/referenced in the Dark Horse books.


    Vampire in Rug

    If LNJ is canon,
    Spoiler:
    the soul Angel is given is not Liamís soul: itís the soul of a Ďchampioní fighter.
    I just did a re-read of Long Night's Journey. It is never factually stated that Angelus received Perfect Zhang's soul. For those that haven't read the book, the premise is that Angel is being hunted by a badass vampire named Perfect Zhang who wanted to become the perfect vampire warrior. Zhang considered himself to be the only vampire who was worthy and unique enough to get a soul. Apparently the gypsy curse to restore a vampire soul was always intended to be used on Zhang, but because it was a new spell that had never been tried before, the gypsies used Angelus as a "lab rat", they restored his soul to see if the spell would work. Obviously, the spell did work and Angel's soul was restored. The gypsies then tried to perform the same spell on Zhang, but for some reason it didn't work. We never find out why it didn't work, but for whatever reason, Zhang's soul didn't take. Zhang was pissed about this, and at some point in AtS season 2, Zhang attacked Angel with some demon lackeys and then kidnapped Angel, tortured him and tried to do a ritual that would steal Angel's soul. The book ends with them on a blimp, Angel manages to escape and Zhang gets caught up in some cables and presumably dies when the blimp explodes. Before he escapes, Zhang asks Angel why his soul was restored and Zhang's was not. Angel's response is: "I don't have all the answers, Zheng. I don't know why my soul was returned to me. But you don't want it anyway. Painful truth Mr. Perfect: you couldn't handle it." Before Zheng dies, Angel is basically rubbing his face in the fact that he wasn't "worthy" enough for a soul. Zheng's response is "the soul, Angel. Are you very sure... that it's yours?"

    Zheng knew that he was going to die, he was basically giving Angel one last taunt to mess with his head. Neither Angel nor Zheng were authorities on the gypsy curse. Neither of them knew why it worked on Angel and not Zheng.

    No, it's not a canonical fact that Angel recieved Zheng's soul when he was cursed. It's possible I guess, but I consider it unlikely. Zheng was a biased party with a biased opinion. He wanted to mess with Angel's head and make him doubt himself. He was also butthurt that a less worthy vampire like Angel could get a soul, and he couldn't. There is really no reason why we should take his word as gospel.

    Until itís made at-all canon, itís not factually wrong.
    Actually, yes. Several points from ATF have been referenced. At the very least, the basic outline of ATF is canon. So whoever voted that ATF is completely, 100% non-canon is indeed factually wrong.

    Um, no. Angel, Spike, Illyria, and Gunn surviving doesnít mean that ATF happened. Kate and Nina becoming affiliated with the team at some point has not been referenced in BtVS S9 stuff. Wolfram and Hart leaving the dimension hasnít been referenced in BtVS S9. And if they did leave, that could simply be from the IDW Spike miniseries. And Angel saying things were ďfunkyĒ doesnít mean much. He could be referencing anything or could be simply lying to Buffy.
    Did you even read my last post?

    Angel, Spike, Gunn and Illyria surviving past Not Fade Away may not necessarily be proof that ATF is canon in and of itself, but if you don't want to accept ATF as canon: then there is a big, permanent question mark over how they survived. The commonly accepted answer of how they survived is the events of ATF. If you don't want to accept that, then I guess for you it must be a giant frustrating plot point that's never going to be answered. It's worth noting that when Gunn appeared in the story again, Christos Gage consulted Brain Lynch to check if Gunn is missing an eye.

    Kate and Nina were mentioned in Angel &Faith.

    I'm pretty sure Buffy mentioned W&H fleeing this dimension. This could be a reference to both ATF or the Spike series, seeing as how W&F escaped this dimension in both series. Still, I don't know why you'd dismiss ATF and accept that it's a reference to Spike aside from character bias reasons.

    In the latest ATF, Eyghon makes a threat to tear Angel's limbs off, let them regrow and then tear them off again. This could be a non-literal threat meant to convey general anger, it could be a case of Eyghon not understanding how vampires work or it could be a reference to the crappy Bill Willingham storyline where at one point vampires could regrow their limbs.

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    KingofCretins

    * IDWís Spike miniseries has essentially at least Spike: Asylum canon and has Spike and Illyria being friendly. That doesnít mean anything from AtF or S: AtF needs to be canon.

    In terms of your all-important explicit sanction by Joss, was there anything at IDW that enjoyed a more definite endorsement than the original "After the Fall" run?
    I remember Joss Whedon approved of all the Willow stuff in IDWís Spike series. Illyria in BtVS S9 has her powers back, something only done in Illyria: Haunted .

    Spikeís bugship is canon. Willow in BtVS S8 seems to know Spikeís in the spaceship. Spike and Willow are friendly in BtVS 9.01. Both IDWís Spike and Illyria: Haunted have more connection to the Dark Horse stuff than AtF and S: AtF.



    Vampire in Rug

    Actually, it's generally agreed that After the Fall carries more canonical weight than Spike, and certainly more than Illyria: Haunted.
    Itís actually generally agreed that we still donít know what if anything from IDW is canon.


    * Joss Whedon in Long Nightís Journey further introduced the notion that Angelís soul is not from Liam of Galway. We donít even know for sure if Spike got Williamís soul, so the canon is Ďup in the airí regarding what soul Angel got.


    * I never suggested or implied that I donít want to accept AtF and S: AtF as canon. The problem is we donít know what from IDW is canon.

    I donít even talk about BtVS S9: Spike: A Dark Place because it doesnít even track with what happens in A&F S9 and we never hear of Morgan again. All we know is Spike no longer has his bugship.

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    I've said many times, I don't assume canon of every fact and detail in that post-ATF interim just because some of it is referenced in unambiguously canonical work (i.e. Buffy continuation) -- the material that was referenced is what is canon. So Spike was a ship with bugs; canon. How, canonically, he came to be on that ship? Undetermined. I would probably take those books as rough sketch of the major points and not a technical manual. Kinda like how "the Origin" is "essentially canon" (Joss' phrase) but we know it inaccurately depicts the appearance of her first Watcher because we saw him "live" in Season 2.

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