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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    Huh, I thought they switched votes so that each would read the other's vote, and that they were depicted as having stereotypically gendered handwritings.
    But usually when you say "at the same time" you're about to reveal your own cards, not open up someone else's. It reminds me of the moment when you turn over your hand while playing poker or blackjack. The reveal is about showing your secret.

    All I can say is that my handwriting is a mess (I spend most of my time typing) while I have a few guy friends whose handwriting and cursive is quite pretty, tbh. (Especially the one who's studying Russian and so he has to write cyrillic in cursive all the time and it's become second nature.)

    I guess it's ambiguous who wrote what? Because it could be that they exchanged the votes and are opening up each other's votes with surprise, hence why the instant relief when they read "Buffy stays!" I'd just assumed that since they were both holding the votes to be easily seen, that it was about showing one's hand before the group, so to speak, rather than opening up someone else's hand.

    If you go based on the placement of the papers on the table, it seems likely to me that Anaheed would open the card nearest to her on the left which would presumably be hers which she set down there (and same goes with Tumble). But we don't see the action, so yeah little ambigious moment. But I'll take whatever leeway I can get in finding a reading of non-traditional gender roles.
    Last edited by Emmie; 29-02-12 at 11:22 PM.

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    Really, it could go either way. Agree with you about Tumble's charisma. Those few panels did a lot to make me really warm up to both of them.

    I also think writing has gotten denser. Tumble says they know how Buffy's tie-breaker would go; but she's already broken the tie; but only because she doesn't know how the vote went; etc.

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    And although I do think Buffy has an overlay of also seeing Spike as a loser (explicitly stated in Lovers Walk and Fool for Love)...
    The fact that Season 3 and Season 5 episodes are still seriously forming a basis for argument that Buffy looks down on Spike here in Season 9 is proof of just how palpably unsupportable the idea is for present tense interpretation.

    As someone who sincerely thinks dating vampires is a recipe for being miserable and dysfunctional, you won't need to tell me when Buffy is actually showing signs of agreeing with me; I'll tell you. She's not there, she's not even vaguely there.

    EDIT: Not to smack the gorilla, but that vote also means that a significant detail in Buffy's supposed good argument in 9.06 just went up in smoke -- she's not getting kicked out. In fact, after a moment of perfectly reasonable doubt on their part (made out of concern for what they both thought the other wanted), her roommates enthusiastically want her to stay. So that part of the argument was all assumption on Buffy's part and turned out to be incorrect. Wonder if she may have a chance to recalculate.
    Last edited by KingofCretins; 29-02-12 at 11:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Kitty View Post

    And wow, I have to say that I'm a little bit surprised by all the pessimism I read recently around here. I don't really get it for being honest, but I guess we all have our own ways of reading the story (but so much negativity, it's depressing to read *pout*). From my point of view, I think that some attitudes are being over-interpreted, and some things are just being interpreted like a "big deal" while it actually isn't or while we don't have all the elements for judging, like for the #10 cover and the bit about "Even Spike deserves better than you" (which is by the way, to me, not indicative that Buffy sees Spike like beneath her -I don't think that those lines are supposed to be her point of view-, we're talking about the girl who called him a Champion and believed in him while he was at his lowest point). I guess we'll see.
    I don't know about anyone else but for me, it's self-protection. I started out at the end of the show all about the Spuffy. It was a beautiful love story to me. It resonated so much that I spent years reading fan fiction and buying everything I could find. Then season 8 started and I still expected Spike to be the guy Buffy thought about, and Spuffy to be "the key relationship" Yes. Yes I did. The creators of the show essentially thought I was out of my mind. Four years of the show I loved being a completely different show than I loved. So I'm not going to get my hopes up again. Ever. What happens happens, and I will try my very best not to care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    But alas, poor Spuffy. Buffy is in freefall because she can't be normal. She's playing right into Spike's fears. For all the people who said Spike was putting this desire for normalcy onto Buffy, here we find he's exactly right. Buffy can only come to Spike in this frame of mind by deciding she's not good enough for normal and so has to settle for cockroaches and a guy with a lumpy face.

    And I give you:

    "Even Spike deserves better than me." and
    "Tumble and Anaheed look at me... well, the way people look at bumpy-face you."

    Told you so.
    Oh, I thought they were lovely pages showing two people who were dealing with something together. I just can't imagine scenes that would make everyone who is being soooo pessimistic so early about Spuffy happy that wouldn't be condemning it with short term saccharine sweetness. I still think they are getting there, it may end up ultimately as friends but the depth of affection evident on both sides is really touching to me and I am still hoping for lovely romance. I don't think Buffy is returning to the dark, can't be normal etc, I think she is just turning to where she feels secure/safe and loved and that isn't bad, that isn't wrong. The two of them may well end up meeting in the middle with all their lovely dark and light shades in place and that would be great but at least it has remained as it always was, very real.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    Really, it could go either way. Agree with you about Tumble's charisma. Those few panels did a lot to make me really warm up to both of them.

    I also think writing has gotten denser. Tumble says they know how Buffy's tie-breaker would go; but she's already broken the tie; but only because she doesn't know how the vote went; etc.
    Ach, I really can't be doing with Anaheed and Tumble. They just remind me of people I knew in my teens who are really changeable in their attitudes and want to hang around with the cool kids, piggy backing to make themselves more interesting. Those people got tedious really, really quickly. I hope Buffy moves out for the sake of her own sanity and so that she doesn't just gain groupies which is what they are behaving like.

  11. #47
    Dedicated Spike Fan Maggie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    Oh, I thought they were lovely pages showing two people who were dealing with something together. I just can't imagine scenes that would make everyone who is being soooo pessimistic so early about Spuffy happy that wouldn't be condemning it with short term saccharine sweetness.
    I don't mean to be jumping on you Stoney; you are just the lastest to do this. But it gets tiresome hearing charges like this. I think this is a sad place for Spike and Buffy to be starting. Buffy is only here with Spike because she feels like there's no place for her in the normal world. That's reminiscent of season 6, which was not a fluffy happy nyan romantic relationship.

    Making that observation in no way entails (a) that one think that there will never be any Spuffy smoochies or even (b) that the Spuffy dynamic might not well develop into a happier direction.

    It feels like there's an effort at thought police going on. Thou Shallt squee with great squee at the mere fact that Buffy and Spike are on the same page. In this case, I think the real problem with that stance is that it misses the pathos of the story that is being told. I feel like I'm the one set up to appreciate the Spuffy that will unfold because I'm the one who's paying attention to the drama that's being woven into it right at the foundation. This is the continuation of the story where Spike and Buffy are mutually confused about how they relate individually and as a pair to the polarities of light and dark; normal and not normal. They are starting off in dark. Buffy feels driven from the normal and is taking refuge on a ship run by cockroaches. That just is the story. I'm strapped in ready to see where it goes. But to embrace the story is to embrace that it starts with an alas. Joss is making Buffy and Spike start in a hole. That ought to make folks feel better about their long run prospects than it would if they were starting on Squee Mountain which is apparently where we are supposed to see them now.

    But me saying that they are in a sad state now just is NOT me saying that it sucks or that there is no Spuffy or that it's unfair or whatever other words people insist on putting into my mouth. My words mean what they mean and nothing more nor less. This is a sad place for them to be. Spike thinking he can't be normal; Buffy thinks she doesn't even deserve normal. That's not an occasion for squee.

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    Maggie, I agree with some of your post but I don't think Buffy and Spike are in a sad and dark place, merely uncharted territory for them and they're both fumbling toward something perhaps that is new between them.

    Since I never expected to get real overt Spuffiness so soon I'm not concerned with how things are unfolding in their interactions. Slow is usually better, not to mention Buffy still has to work through some stuff right now and really isn't in a good place to start a new romantic relationship with Spike.

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    I think my complaint is that, y'know what, it's utterly freakin' obvious that Spuffy is the only game in town right now for Buffy romance, even if we get there by way of a Dowling triangle, so upset over the failure of perfect execution is the complaint it's not a terribly sympathetic. If the cost of having Spuffy as the foregone conclusion, fait accompli, above-the-title romantic feature of Season 9 is the meager fact that it's starting off in a somewhat melancholy place, so what?

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    Should I somehow turn out to be wrong and the epic-nyan Spuffy that King is so fond of happens, I'm going to laugh when the comic fails because people who aren't a fan of the ship stop reading when they realize there's nothing worth reading for if you aren't a Spuffy fan.

    So really, either way I'll be laughing by the end.

    Gee, it'd be really great if we could talk about something else for a change instead of the same old topic that seems to pop up with every damn issue.
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    Maggie, I also wonder if we're just talking at cross purposes. I don't think romantic Spuffy is happening right now but I don't think I've seen anything negative between the two of them. The main difference between 9 and 6 and 7 is that Spike is in a very good place emotionally speaking and Buffy seems to be finally delving into her psyche. At different times in her life Buffy would do some self contemplation but she usually got diverted by something and just went back into denial mode.

  18. #52
    Dedicated Spike Fan Maggie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    I think my complaint is that, y'know what, it's utterly freakin' obvious that Spuffy is the only game in town right now for Buffy romance, even if we get there by way of a Dowling triangle, so upset over the failure of perfect execution is the complaint it's not a terribly sympathetic. If the cost of having Spuffy as the foregone conclusion, fait accompli, above-the-title romantic feature of Season 9 is the meager fact that it's starting off in a somewhat melancholy place, so what?
    By this logic, Spuffydom got everything it wanted back in season 6, because all that counts is Spike and Buffy and some hot and heavy action.

    Look, I think they are starting in an objectively sad place. There's been some regression. Buffy saw Spike as a Champion, there was some warm mutuality, Spike died and sent her (in the shooting script) back up to that world that belongs to her. Fast forward two years, and they aren't being honest with each other at all. Buffy is coming to Spike because she can't fit into that world up there. Spike seems to have no ambition of his own to find his way into that world up there. Where do they go from here? One hopes it will be back into the light. But right now, the drama is that they aren't starting in the light, or even in the doorway to the light which is where they left things. Making that observation is Not a Complaint.

    It does NOT mean they won't evolve to a good place.

    But my bottom line is that what matters to me is that IF there's to be a relationship that it be forward progress for them. I expect that even though there's a backward step now, that there will be forward progress going forward. I hope it will be. But for now it's just sad -- for both of them. If that's Buffy's internal monologue in #10, she's not remotely fit for a long term relationship. Scott said as much in one of the Q&As. So, that says we're likely to have some heavy slogging ahead.

    My plea to you is.... just... stop treating it like all that matters is whether they get wiggly with each other. They've been there and done that. If Buffy were all broken and miserable and saying "even Xander deserves better than me", I think you'd know that (a) yes, they might well be setting up for interesting Bander action but (b) they aren't starting in a place that of itself is worth a big squee.

    I'm glad we're getting Spuffy. Really. But it's starting off as a sad Spuffy story.

    Pointman -- what can I say? It's going to be a hard slog for you for a good long while because Joss has decided he wants to explore this epic Spuffy dance for a good long while yet. I would hope that if Joss had gone in another direction that I'd have given over to it. But I can't really say that I would have. I know for a fact that if we were heading off to Bangel nyan, I'd be running from the story. But my advice to you is -- decide if you're going to keep with the story or not. It's going in this direction, at least for a while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    Pointman -- what can I say? It's going to be a hard slog for you for a good long while because Joss has decided he wants to explore this epic Spuffy dance for a good long while yet. I would hope that if Joss had gone in another direction that I'd have given over to it. But I can't really say that I would have. I know for a fact that if we were heading off to Bangel nyan, I'd be running from the story. But my advice to you is -- decide if you're going to keep with the story or not. It's going in this direction, at least for a while.
    Maggie: I don't know where you get good long while from but I can guarantee you that whatever happens it will be over and done with by the end of the season. If that's your definition of a long while then fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post

    Pointman -- what can I say? It's going to be a hard slog for you for a good long while because Joss has decided he wants to explore this epic Spuffy dance for a good long while yet. I would hope that if Joss had gone in another direction that I'd have given over to it. But I can't really say that I would have. I know for a fact that if we were heading off to Bangel nyan, I'd be running from the story. But my advice to you is -- decide if you're going to keep with the story or not. It's going in this direction, at least for a while.
    Unfortunately, I've been thinking this lately as well. And as someone who stumbled upon this verse, what 15 years ago? And was in my teens at the time, it truly makes me sad that my love for this show has come down to this disappointment to the point that I start contemplating finally giving it up along with the friends who let it go when the credits rolled. And, I'm not trying to say that in an insulting way to start any kind of ship war. But as someone who isn't very invested in Spuffy or seeing Buffy so isolated from her friends or someone not interested in seeing Xander sidelined with Dawn or Willow off sulking without magic or just another dark depressing Buffy freefall, so well, its not leaving me with much to look forward to.

    I understand that Spike and Buffy are going to be locked in this dance for the road ahead and that was something that I've known and accepted was going to happen since they announced Spike would be part of the comics this season. So its not something that I didn't see coming and just can't accept it because it is what it is. But good grief, it feels like its blocking out the sun. It feels like all the comic is about is Buffy and Spike dancing around each other and how and when they're finally going to get together. Who loves who more? When she'll finally let him know her feelings. And if Buffy is good enough for Spike now. And so on and so on and so on.

    What happened to the characters who weren't these two? What happen to the relationships that held me captivated for 15 years and who turned a gal who never once read a comic issue into a comic book reader? What happen to the story about a girl and her friends??

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    Maggie, again I have to say that it's not "Buffy and Spike" who are sad. It's Buffy's being knocked sideways by an unplanned pregnancy and the decisions that now have to be made who is sad (not to mention still feeling guilg from what happened in 8).

    Buffy is contemplative and sad because of her circumstances. No matter whom she was with (Dawn, Willow, Xander...) she would be contemplative and sad. Spike, who is an empathetic kind of guy, is sad for Buffy because she's sad due to her situation.

    But I don't get a dark vibe so far between the two of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiger_fan View Post
    Unfortunately, I've been thinking this lately as well. And as someone who stumbled upon this verse, what 15 years ago? And was in my teens at the time, it truly makes me sad that my love for this show has come down to this disappointment to the point that I start contemplating finally giving it up along with the friends who let it go when the credits rolled. And, I'm not trying to say that in an insulting way to start any kind of ship war. But as someone who isn't very invested in Spuffy or seeing Buffy so isolated from her friends or someone not interested in seeing Xander sidelined with Dawn or Willow off sulking without magic or just another dark depressing Buffy freefall, so well, its not leaving me with much to look forward to.

    I understand that Spike and Buffy are going to be locked in this dance for the road ahead and that was something that I've known and accepted was going to happen since they announced Spike would be part of the comics this season. So its not something that I didn't see coming and just can't accept it because it is what it is. But good grief, it feels like its blocking out the sun. It feels like all the comic is about is Buffy and Spike dancing around each other and how and when they're finally going to get together. Who loves who more? When she'll finally let him know her feelings. And if Buffy is good enough for Spike now. And so on and so on and so on.

    What happened to the characters who weren't these two? What happen to the relationships that held me captivated for 15 years and who turned a gal who never once read a comic issue into a comic book reader? What happen to the story about a girl and her friends??
    Maybe it's something to bring up with Allie at the next Q&A. Remind him that most of us aren't about the Spuffy. If they want us to stick around they need to give us a reason.
    Last edited by PointMan; 01-03-12 at 05:21 AM.
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    Don't worry, Xander fans, I'm sure it will come back to Buffy cannot survive without Scooby approval of her every move and a giant scobby hug at the end...you know, like always.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointMan View Post
    I'm going to laugh when the comic fails because people who aren't a fan of the ship stop reading when they realize there's nothing worth reading for if you aren't a Spuffy fan.
    Or they'll just stick around for the next 2 years and whine like petulant babies about it every month...

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    By this logic, Spuffydom got everything it wanted back in season 6, because all that counts is Spike and Buffy and some hot and heavy action.
    I think for some people this was probably true. However, I agree with you that it's too simplistic to say all Spuffy fans should be happy just because they exploring the relationship again. Everybody is different. Some Spuffy fans will just be happy no matter what because as long as these two characters are interacting with one another then theres something to squee about. Others wont be satisfied unless its something positive. And Im sure theres at least some shippers out there who probably actually prefer it when things are angsty and dark. At the end of the day every individual is different, even shippers.

    Personally, Im usually satisfied as long as a ship I like is being explored in some way. The story doesnt necessarily have to be positive for me to be enthralled by it. Its why I love A Beautiful Sunset so much and all the Buffy/Angel interaction that issue, even if its incredibly dark and disturbing. Likewise, Im always captivated by Buffy/Faith (Id consider myself a Fuffy shipper before all else) even if it involves a lot of pain and the occasional fight to the death or near drowning in pools. As long as theyre interacting them Im entertained. And if I actually had to pick my favourite Spuffy season it would be S6 because as abusive and unhealthy as their relationship was, I also found it to be by far the most captivating era of their relationship.

    But everybody is different. Some people wont want Spuffy explored again if its just going to hurt the characters. I find that understandable even if I personally approach the story differently. Not that I think S9!Spuffy will hurt the characters, mind you. I think there'll be some angst along the way but if I had to guess I'd say they're firmly moving into 'end game' territory for these two. I keep going back to what Joss apparently said about them being a "sustainable relationship" and how "warts an' all" they could make it work. But we'll have to wait and see.
    Last edited by vampmogs; 01-03-12 at 05:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    Or they'll just stick around for the next 2 years and whine like petulant babies about it every month...
    When they stop giving me something to while about, I'll stop whining. In the meantime; I've been following the series since the first episode aired for the first time. There may be people on this board that have been in the fandom as long but there is no one that has been around longer. If anyone has earned the right to whine, it's me.

    On an unrelated topic: what do people think the odds are that any other characters will pop up in issue 7?
    Last edited by PointMan; 01-03-12 at 05:27 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shipperx View Post
    Don't worry, Xander fans, I'm sure it will come back to Buffy cannot survive without Scooby approval of her every move and a giant scobby hug at the end...you know, like always.
    So the only question will be if this will as silly and undeserved as it was in S7 or even more so? Can't wait...

    On an unrelated topic: what do people think the odds are that any other characters will pop up in issue 7?
    Depends on whether you count the bugs as characters, I guess.
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