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Thread: Drusilla's strength, power, and fighting ability

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    Dru is a fairly powerful psionic, with visions of the future and hypnotic abilities that buffyverse vamps apparently don't normally develop before they are ancient. She's also nutty as a fruitcake and clearly not leading anything. Hell, Darla treated her as a child once she resired her.

  2. #42
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    All caught up




    KingofCretins

    Honestly, use of mind control/hypnosis isn't really "winning" a fight, it's avoiding a fight.
    Drusilla had already won. She had Kendra immobilized. Again, she likely could have simply squeezed until Kendra’s neck snapped and/or she died from lack of oxygen. Or Dru could have put her fingers in Kendra and killed her as if using a knife.

    Anyway, the Master, Drusilla, and Dracula using their hypno-beams are they being able to fight without needing to risk harm to themselves in the process.

    if when their respective versions of the Great Roofie Spirit possessed Xander or later RJ, and they had simply seduced a Drusilla into a vulnerable position and staked her...
    Completely off-topic, but:

    There’s zero indication Drusilla would be vulnerable to Xander. And there’s zero indication that Buffy was vulnerable to RJ. If anything, those under the spell were more dangerous to Xander than they had been before the spell.


    * Drusilla’s prescient and she’s intelligent. She killed Kendra in a way in which Buffy would be blamed for her death.

    And sort of to that point, Drusilla went ahead and hypnotized Kendra for only one of two reasons -- a) she didn't think she could defeat her without it, or b) she couldn't be arsed to, maybe because of their timetable.
    Again, she already defeated Kendra. And if anything, it took longer to kill her after using hypno-beams than it would had Dru simply snapped Kendra’s neck or put a hole through Kendra.



    Vampire in Rug

    you think that Spike was the winner when Angel and Spike fought in the episode In the Dark,
    I remember you saying Angel wasn’t afraid of werewolf Oz. Anyway, what I said is Angel got hurt during that fight and Spike wasn’t hurt. And that Spike was putting Angel into a false sense of security given it was always Spike’s plan to have that vampire torture Angel.

    Getting distracted mid-battle is not an excuse, Spike defeated Drusilla.
    If Buffy was fighting and beating Spike and then sees or overhears Dawn or Willow is about to be killed, and after being distracted Spike beats Buffy, Spike would have beaten Buffy because she was distracted.

    If Drusilla hadn’t gotten distracted, we don’t know who would have ultimately won that fight. But she was defeated because in her distraction Spike was somehow able to make her unconscious.


    * I consider the flashbacks in “Fool For Love” (5.07) are showing what Spike is telling Buffy. We know for instance that Nikki did beg for her life, but this wasn’t shown. And Spike was simply telling Buffy that a Slayer needs a weapon in order to kill a vampire and a vampire always has his or her fangs. And that it’s better to have a weapon. Remember that Spike beat Buffy in “School Hard” (2.03) largely because he had that two-by-four and Buffy didn’t have anything to kill him with.

    it's ridiculous that you'd give the win to Drusilla when she fought Spike.
    I didn’t say she beat Spike. I said something like she was beating Spike.

    A struggling Slayer won't stay immobilized for long,
    Zero proof of this. Drusilla had Kendra immobilized.

    Snapping somebody's neck would likely require one to use both hands,
    You don’t remember the scene. Drusilla had her immobilized with one hand.


    * We don’t know how Spike got Drusilla to be unconscious.


    * Well, in the possibly canonical comics, Spike also could use his nails as ‘knives’. But in the certain canon, Drusilla’s the only vampire I remember that uses her nails as deadly weapons. Darla cuts her skin so that Angel can drink her blood, but I don’t remember seeing Darla ever using her nails as deadly weapons.



    kana

    One of the issues I have with this is that we are not dealing with a martial arts tournament. There are no rules, therefore we cannot take anything for granted.
    No one is discussing this as if it were a martial arts tournament.

    As for the 'look at the list of opponents I've defeated' argument? I loathe it. Simply because it ignores circumstance. By the same logic Riley Finn could take Buffy in a fight if he wanted to, seen as he easily killed a vampire who almost killed Buffy.
    Buffy lost to that vampire because she had gotten overconfident and therefore careless in fights. That Riley argument is irrelevant to this thread.

    So say for example Spike was able to beat Buffy and Buffy was able to beat Faith, it doesn't mean that Spike would automatically win against Faith.
    This argument is irrelevant to this thread. Kendra relatively easily whupped Angel, she got into a standstill with Buffy (albeit Buffy had an injured leg), didn’t get a single hit on Spike, and only got a single hit on Drusilla. The Buffy-Spike and Buffy-Faith’s fights are more evenly matched.


    * Drusilla wanted to open Acathla, informed Angel of this desire, and Angel worked with her to open Acathla. That’s what happened.

    It is baseless speculation that Angel would have used the Judge even if Spike and Drusilla had not already expressed that they were using the Judge. It is baseless speculation that Angel would have used Acathla even if Drusilla had not already expressed her desire to open Acathla.

    Spike got the Judge together as a birthday – assuming – present for Drusilla. Acathla was opened because Drusilla wanted it opened and was able to get the necessary information out of Giles.

    My quote: “There’s nothing before or after “Becoming” (2.21-2) which suggests Angelus would be interested in doing something like Acathla.”

    This is starting to grate,
    Facts inconvenient to your arguments are grating to you?

    Not entirely sure, but I certainly think she was a 'Daddy's Girl' back in the day.
    In the ‘verse, she seems to care more about her mother. For Darla, it regards her relationship with Angel. Darla was the ‘wife’ and Drusilla was the ‘mistress’ and/or ‘paramour’.

    “I've already addressed this argument.” “Again, I've addressed this as well.”
    It’s hypocritical to complain about my repeating myself and then give such statements.

    I find it interesting that you seem to think that it's significant that Angelus never addressed Dru not taking better care of him, but not that Angel literally set fire to Dru and wasn't bothered at all about the reprisal?
    I have addressed Angel setting Drusilla afire.

    Drusilla wasn’t in danger of actually dying. There was an axe on the path to a very nearby fire hydrant. Angel would have been dusted by Buffy had not he distracted her with the knowledge that Giles was about to be burned up.

    What “Passion” (2.17) further proved is that Angel wasn’t the boss of either Spike or Drusilla and that Drusilla prioritized Spike above Angel.

    My quote: “And, again, in “Bewitched, Bothered, & Bewildered” (2.16), Angel is clearly intimidated by Dru. She tosses him into a tree, threatens him if he dares to touch Xander again, and then ignores him and is about to sire Xander mere feet from where Angel is.”

    This makes little sense to me. Why would Angel be intimidated?
    For the obvious reason that he knows Drusilla can dust him. And its canon he was at least intimidated. What is arguable is whether he was deathly afraid, etc.

    He's openly stated how dangerous Spike is, yet has never been intimidated by him.
    Angel’s ego rarely allowed him to acknowledge that Spike is the superior fighter and the superior vampire.

    he doesn't run away.
    She already ignored him. It’s not as if she was still intent on dusting him. She merely wanted him not to try to harm Xander.

    He's watching the whole thing, probably seeing if he can make sense of what was going on.
    At the time Drusilla threatens him, he didn’t seem to consider that she could be under a spell.

    In any respect, he still arrogantly mocks Dru when she can't get into the house so it's not as if he's scared of her.
    I don’t know whether he was being arrogant. It’s not as if he thinks she’ll try to dust him if he merely points out a fact.


    * For the thread topic, Drusilla in AtS s2 wasn’t trying to kill Angel. I consider Angel in that greenhouse was trying to kill Drusilla because he desperately wanted to kill Darla. Later on, I consider Angel wasn’t going to try to actually kill Dru (because he doesn’t want to kill Dru because he still has feelings for Dru, and he didn’t want to suffer whatever consequences Spike would put on him).


    * For “Lie to Me” (2.07), the nice ambiguity is whether Angel knows Drusilla is ill and what exactly Dru means by, “Or you’ll hurt me? No, no you can’t. Not anymore.”

    I mean before 1997, what had Dru done that was so scary?
    Perhaps a more relevant question regarding Angel.



    Lostsoul666

    Strength means nothing in the Buffyverse. Plot matters more. If the plot requires a character to be strong then they'll be strong. If they need to be weak they'll be weak.

    Take Angel as an example. On Buffy he had the same strength as a common vampire until he turned into Angelus halfway through season 2. And in Season 3 he was back to the power level of a common vampire.
    The writers didn't want him to be stronger then Buffy.

    Yet on Angel he was clearly more powerful then the average vampire.
    None of this is based on actual canon.

    Strength means about everything in the Buffyverse. Angel is always depicted as stronger and more powerful than the average vampire. As Angelus, his advantage was simply Buffy’s hesitancy to dust him. With AtS, that happened after he drank a bunch of Buffy’s blood and after the PTB decided to make him their champion for Los Angeles.

  3. #43
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    You missed my point entirely -- I asked if whether or not Xander (in "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" and benefiting from the love spell) or RJ (wearing his jacket from "Him") were to have put the James Bond moves on Drusilla and staked her by surprise... would they have "beaten her in a fight"? Because that's all Dru is doing when she hypnotizes someone in the middle of combat to become completely docile.

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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    All caught up





    kana

    No one is discussing this as if it were a martial arts tournament.
    It was more of general comment about 'rules' people place on the fights.

    Buffy lost to that vampire because she had gotten overconfident and therefore careless in fights. That Riley argument is irrelevant to this thread.
    Yes, therefore circumstances matter, which is why I take very little for granted.

    This argument is irrelevant to this thread. Kendra relatively easily whupped Angel,
    Number 1) We don't know if Angel was looking to hurt Kendra or not, Number 2) Angel didn't seem that badly hurt after the fight and we've seen Angel win fights whereby he's taken a much worse beating. I'm not trying to make excuses for Angel, I'm just saying we shouldn't take too much for granted.

    she got into a standstill with Buffy (albeit Buffy had an injured leg), didn’t get a single hit on Spike, and only got a single hit on Drusilla. The Buffy-Spike and Buffy-Faith’s fights are more evenly matched.
    And Buffy's fight with Angelus was relatively even matched in Becoming Part 2. I know there is always going to be the debate about Buffy's state of mind in that fight, but that's still assumption. We actually don't know that Buffy wasn't giving that particular fight her all, when she thought she was never going to get Angel back. To be honest I don't see the point in discussing that any further seen as people are always going to believe what they want to believe.

    * Drusilla wanted to open Acathla, informed Angel of this desire, and Angel worked with her to open Acathla. That’s what happened.
    I fear that we're going to go around in circles again. I understand that Dru was the one who found out about Acathla, but my point of contention is how you make it sound like she enlisted Angelus to help her when that's clearly not what happened. Dru never expressed words of desire. She never tells Angelus what to do. The only thing that happened in that scene (which I've watched many times) is Angelus asking Dru for information and she gave him that information. Factually that is what happened. I remember repeatedly talking about how Angelus was interested in the information and there wasn't any proof that he cared about Dru's wishes in the matter. It's all there in the dialogue.


    It is baseless speculation that Angel would have used the Judge even if Spike and Drusilla had not already expressed that they were using the Judge. It is baseless speculation that Angel would have used Acathla even if Drusilla had not already expressed her desire to open Acathla.
    How am I speculating? I'm not talking about what would happen, I'm talking about what did happen. From my point of view I'm not trying to argue that Angelus definitely would have done those things without Dru, I'm arguing that we don't know that he did those things because Dru wanted him to. Therefore, you're the one speculating and not me. I'm saying in terms of Acathla in particular, all we know is that Angelus decided to open Acathla. I don't know why, but I'm not making assumptions nor am I speculating what would happen had he not overheard Dru's conversation.

    Spike got the Judge together as a birthday – assuming – present for Drusilla. Acathla was opened because Drusilla wanted it opened and was able to get the necessary information out of Giles.
    I'm not arguing against that.


    Facts inconvenient to your arguments are grating to you?
    No, what's grating is you missing out parts of posts and only replying to the ones which are convenient to your arguments. If you actually quoted the rest of that part of the post you would see:

    because I've already addressed this.

    Seriously Mike, are you doing this on purpose to get out of replying to parts of my post? So far you have yet to address my counter argument!

    Quote Originally Posted by kana
    There's no proof he wouldn't have. You also can't use the argument that he's never done anything like that prior to that or subsequently to that, because neither has Dru before 1998!!!!! And several years later Dru was still soulless and Angel was busy seeking redemption etc.
    You've probably ignored this about three times now and it's irratating because it's actually the counter argument to the argument you keep repeating!


    In the ‘verse, she seems to care more about her mother.
    Not sure on that one. How is it indicated that she cares more about Darla? Is it because she's tried to kill or been Ok with Angel being killed? Fair comment I guess.

    For Darla, it regards her relationship with Angel. Darla was the ‘wife’ and Drusilla was the ‘mistress’ and/or ‘paramour’.
    I've often seen that way too.

    It’s hypocritical to complain about my repeating myself and then give such statements.
    No it's not, because I try to address all the points in your posts and you literally ignore sometimes massive parts of my post and then repeat the original point that made a counter argument against.

    I have addressed Angel setting Drusilla afire.

    Drusilla wasn’t in danger of actually dying. There was an axe on the path to a very nearby fire hydrant. Angel would have been dusted by Buffy had not he distracted her with the knowledge that Giles was about to be burned up.
    That's not my point. I'm talking about how Angelus and Dru felt about what happened to them. There is no evidence that Angelus cared. We know that Dru wasn't happy about Angel setting her on fire, yet she didn't do anything. Yes she survived but she clearly was in pain and didn't like being on fire. Angelus simply left his situation with a smile on his face.

    What “Passion” (2.17) further proved is that Angel wasn’t the boss of either Spike or Drusilla and that Drusilla prioritized Spike above Angel.
    So? I never argued against that did I?

    For the obvious reason that he knows Drusilla can dust him.
    My point is, what did Dru do that would make Angel(us) think she was so deadly before 1998?

    And its canon he was at least intimidated. What is arguable is whether he was deathly afraid, etc.

    Hmm, not sure on that. Agree to disagree?

    She already ignored him. It’s not as if she was still intent on dusting him. She merely wanted him not to try to harm Xander. Angel’s ego rarely allowed him to acknowledge that Spike is the superior fighter and the superior vampire.
    Why wouldn't that extend to Dru?

    She already ignored him. It’s not as if she was still intent on dusting him. She merely wanted him not to try to harm Xander.

    At the time Drusilla threatens him, he didn’t seem to consider that she could be under a spell.
    I didn't say he worked it out, he seemed to dismiss Dru as being crazy.

    I don’t know whether he was being arrogant. It’s not as if he thinks she’ll try to dust him if he merely points out a fact.
    Either way, his tone is not fearful.

    * For the thread topic, Drusilla in AtS s2 wasn’t trying to kill Angel.
    Yes she was, she was clearly trying to stake him.

    I consider Angel in that greenhouse was trying to kill Drusilla because he desperately wanted to kill Darla.
    He never attempts to kill Dru in the greenhouse.

    Later on, I consider Angel wasn’t going to try to actually kill Dru (because he doesn’t want to kill Dru because he still has feelings for Dru, and he didn’t want to suffer whatever consequences Spike would put on him).
    Familial feelings, yes, I agree. As for what Spike would do to him? I've address this. It's pure speculation that Angel is afraid of Spike at all!!

    * For “Lie to Me” (2.07), the nice ambiguity is whether Angel knows Drusilla is ill and what exactly Dru means by, “Or you’ll hurt me? No, no you can’t. Not anymore.”

    Perhaps a more relevant question regarding Angel.
    I never said that Dru was a afraid of Angel(us).

  5. #45
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    KingofCretins

    * Your ‘point’ seems to be something like if Drusilla had such powers that she could teleport Kendra into the sun and did so that somehow Dru couldn’t be said to have beaten Kendra in a fight.


    * Dru had Kendra immobilized before she uses the hyno-beams on her. Dru had already won.




    kana

    I’m again going to edit myself and limit this to being directly about “Drusilla's strength, power, and fighting ability” This isn’t about whether Buffy or Angel is the better fighter: clearly Buffy is.


    * Angel – like Buffy – assumed Kendra was one of the assassins sent to kill Buffy. Kendra had already easily whupped Angel before he laughably tried to threaten her. Angel was locked in a cage and would have been dusted had Spike not needed him. Again, Buffy – albeit her leg is still sore/hurt – got into a standstill with Dru. Dru easily killed Kendra and Kendra only got a single blow in.


    * Drusilla wanted to open Acathla, Angel knows she wants to open Acathla, and Angel worked with her to open Acathla.

    I never said Drusilla “enlisted” Angel’s help to open Acathla. I said that wasn’t even necessary. Angel just did what she wanted.

    It still seems you completely miss the obviousness in Dru’s voice, facial expressions, manner, nonverbal cues, etc. that all indicate she wants to open Acathla. And that Angel would clearly recognize her desire.


    * It seems you’re forgetting that uncursed Angel’s goal in BtVS S2 – at least before he decided to focus his torment on Spike – was to emotionally hurt Buffy. It’s not even certain he actually wanted to kill her. Drusilla in BtVS S2 delighted in the idea of destroying the world; Angel was more interested in Buffy.


    * We’ve seen plenty of flashbacks of uncursed Angel. He’s always focused on hurting individual people. Cursed Angel even says such in “Damage” (A 5.11).

    Plus, something else you seem to forget is that Angel likes luxury and liked the world. And he didn’t like chaos.

    Again, there’s no proof uncursed Angel would have used Acathla or even wanted to open Acathla were not for Dru wanting to do these things.


    * I was referring to Drusilla seems to care more about her former human mother than she does about Angel. Dru refers to Darla as grandmother and then grandmother/daughter.

    We know that Dru wasn't happy about Angel setting her on fire, yet she didn't do anything.
    I don’t know what you’re trying to get at. Are you saying Dru was now afraid of Angel?


    * It seems you missed the point. Dru wasn’t in actual danger of dying in “Redefinition” (A 2.11). Yes, her feelings were hurt that Angel decided to set her afire instead of rejoin ‘the family’ and play and have fun with Darla and her (and Spike). But she wouldn’t think Angel actually tried to kill her or that she was in actual danger of being killed.

    In “Passion” (2.17), Spike and Dru were away from the fight and away from the focus. Spike would have continued to wheel himself away from Buffy. If Giles hadn’t been in immediate danger of dying and if Angel hadn’t noticed that, Angel would be dust.

    My point is, what did Dru do that would make Angel(us) think she was so deadly before 1998?
    Snarky answer: she’s a vampire who kills people.

    Answer: Let’s not forget how much of a wussy and scaredy-cat Angel was prior to BtVS S3 (yes, uncursed Angel only went against Buffy because he knew he could play her emotions for him against her).

    By the way, there isn’t a flashback that shows either Darla or Angel being a superior fighter or more powerful than Dru.


    * We actually saw Dru ‘winning’ the fight against Spike until she got distracted by Angel’s pulling the sword out.

    I don’t recall an instance of Dru overestimating someone’s abilities or underestimating someone’s abilties.


    * For “Bewitched, Bothered, & Bewildered” (2.16): its canon Angel was at least intimidated by Dru. What is arguable is whether he was deathly afraid, etc.

    To “disagree” is to have your arguments not be based on canon.

    Dru warned him not to way a finger on Xander. She didn’t say something such as “Don’t you dare mock me.”


    * Dru in AtS s2 didn’t want to kill Angel. She wasn’t clearly trying to stake him, she was holding him off until Darla could escape.

    You’re right; Angel didn’t actually want to kill Dru either.


    * By the way, if you don’t think Spike was a factor in why Angel didn’t kill Dru it stands to reason you should consider either Angel didn’t want to kill Dru and/or he knew he couldn’t likely beat her in a ‘fair fight’.


    * In “Crush” (5.14), Buffy assumes a bunch of vampires killed those people on that train. And unless Dru moved the bodies, that’s not only the fastest we’ve seen a vampire be able to kill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post

    I suppose we may be talking in cross purposes as I was never particularly interested in the details of the who is the best fighter, a) because I don't really care, b) I think plot can be driver within reason and c) from a Watsonian perspective, a lot people make assumptions about the 'rules' fight and motivations etc.

    I've always maintained that Drusilla is powerful and formidable. It's not important to place her in some sort of ranking as if it were a tournament of some sort. With this in mind I'm going to refrain from addressing arguments about the fights directly.
    kana


    * Drusilla wanted to open Acathla, Angel knows she wants to open Acathla, and Angel worked with her to open Acathla.


    I never said Drusilla “enlisted” Angel’s help to open Acathla. I said that wasn’t even necessary. Angel just did what she wanted.
    Which, as I said, is only significant if he was doing it to please Dru.

    It still seems you completely miss the obviousness in Dru’s voice, facial expressions, manner, nonverbal cues, etc. that all indicate she wants to open Acathla.
    No, because I fully acknowledged that Dru had a desire to open Acathla.

    And that Angel would clearly recognize her desire.
    I'm tired of repeating myself. That is only relevant if he cared about that desire and no, his opening Acathla is not proof of that.

    * It seems you’re forgetting that uncursed Angel’s goal in BtVS S2 – at least before he decided to focus his torment on Spike – was to emotionally hurt Buffy. It’s not even certain he actually wanted to kill her. Drusilla in BtVS S2 delighted in the idea of destroying the world; Angel was more interested in Buffy.
    If you look at the thread about Acathla, you'll see I factored that into some possible theories.


    * We’ve seen plenty of flashbacks of uncursed Angel. He’s always focused on hurting individual people. Cursed Angel even says such in “Damage” (A 5.11).
    I've already addressed this...

    I actually can't be bothered, because pretty much most of you said, I have addressed already. We're just going round in circles.
    Last edited by kana; 20-11-13 at 10:53 AM.

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    I still think you're missing the point, MikeB -- if you hypnotize someone or use a mystical aphrodisiac on them to take away the motive force by which they fight in the first place, that is a way to opt out of a fight. For laughs, do you think any MMA league would sanction mind control as a submission move? Or would it be a disqualification? Dru may have defeated Kendra or may not have, but if she could, she clearly couldn't be arsed to see it through, so she put a cheat code in her GameShark and skipped it.

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    kana

    * There is no indication that Angel would have wanted to open Acathla if Drusilla already hadn’t wanted to open Acathla and expressed that desire to Angel.

    Is there more than a 0% chance that Angel would have wanted to open Acathla even if Drusilla wasn’t around? Yes.

    Would Angel have tried to open Acathla if Drusilla expressed she didn’t want to open Acathla? Highly unlikely.



    KingofCretins

    * This is a thread about Drusilla’s strength, power, and fighting ability.

    It seems you are trying to say that Dru’s using her hypno-beams on Kendra is a sign of Dru’s ‘weakness’ or ‘lack of fighting skill’.

    Regarding this thread, if Dru could simply walk in the SHS library and kill Kendra by simply looking at her, all that’s relevant is that she has that ability and is therefore far more powerful than Kendra. Same with if Dru could simply kill Kendra by thinking, “Kill Kendra”.

    * As for the fight itself, Kendra was already a goner. Dru could have simply dug her fingernails into Kendra’s neck. Dru could have swiftly stuck her fingers in Kendra’s eyes or heart. What Dru did is kill Kendra in a way in which Buffy could be reasonably blamed for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeB View Post
    kana

    * There is no indication that Angel would have wanted to open Acathla if Drusilla already hadn’t wanted to open Acathla and expressed that desire to Angel.
    This is the thing, you always speculate. We have no idea what would have happened had he found out about Acathla by himself. My argument is, there is no proof he was trying to please Dru and he clearly wanted to open Acathla. Unless you're saying Angelus didn't want to open Acathla, of which you literally have no proof, then I have nothing else to discuss with you on this topic. That he wanted to open Acathla is what we see on screen. Looking for the exact reason why will always end in speculation. So we may as well agree to disagree.



    Would Angel have tried to open Acathla if Drusilla expressed she didn’t want to open Acathla? Highly unlikely.
    Speculation as there is no proof that Angelus was trying to please Dru. He's never tried to do things to please her in the past, that we know of. The fact that in almost 10 years belonging to the forums that you're the only person I've come across who's said this is telling. You may say that doesn't make what you're saying wrong, but don't you think it's strange that you're one of the only people who 'see it'?

    Regardless, if your argument was based on actual facts rather than a lot of speculation, I might take it seriously, but since it's not, I'm dismissing.

    I consider this debate over.

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    kana

    My quote: “There is no indication that Angel would have wanted to open Acathla if Drusilla already hadn’t wanted to open Acathla and expressed that desire to Angel.”

    This is fact. Yes, there is above a zero percent chance that Angel may have wanted to open Acathla if Drusilla hadn’t already expressed she wanted to open Acathla. However, it is a baseless assumption to say he would have.

    [Angel’s] never tried to do things to please [Drusilla] in the past, that we know of.
    We know of “Innocence” (B 2.14).

    The fact that in almost 10 years belonging to the forums that you're the only person I've come across who's said this is telling. You may say that doesn't make what you're saying wrong, but don't you think it's strange that you're one of the only people who 'see it'?
    This is meaningless. In-verse, the Scoobies consider that Angel’s responsible for the Acathla thing and Drusilla and Spike have no interest in dissuading them from that consideration. In-verse, the First Evil considers Drusilla the Big Bad of BtVS S2 and in-canon, Drusilla’s considered a far bigger danger than Angel and Spike.

    Regardless, if your argument was based on actual facts rather than a lot of speculation, I might take it seriously, but since it's not, I'm dismissing.
    It took you many months to even acknowledge that Angel knew Drusilla wanted to open Acathla before he decided to help open Acathla.

    I consider this debate over.
    Posters should say, “I agree to disagree.” What you did in this post is essentially say, “All your arguments aren’t based on facts, are only speculation, you’re wrong and I’m right, and I consider this debate over (because I’m right and you’re wrong.)”

    The canon is Drusilla wanted the Judge to kill everyone with humanity and Angel went along. The canon is Drusilla wanted to use Acathla and Angel helped her in that task.

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    Arbiter of Canon Vampire in Rug's Avatar
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    Mike, the canon is that Drusilla gave Angel the idea of Acathla and from that point on it became Angel's pet project. Angel wasn't threatened or coerced into doing it by Drusilla.

    Anyway, regarding your idea that Kendra beat Angel, Drusilla "beat" Kendra, therefore Dru>Kendra>Angel... It's already been pointed out several times why that's a faulty way "proving" the dynamics of a fight.

    So I'm not gonna do that, instead I'm gonna rely on your own technique of blaming Jasmine for every bit of canon that you don't like. I'm gonna assert the idea that Kendra was destined to slay Angelus because according to you, Kendra is simply better than him. Angel was gonna lose his soul and Kendra was gonna kill him at some point. So Jasmine intervened because she couldn't allow Kendra to dust her future grandad. Drusilla never legitimately killed Kendra, it was only made possible through Jasmine's divine intervention. This is no more ridiculous than other stuff you've blamed Jasmine for.

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    Vampire in Rug

    * You’re not the arbiter of canon for the Buffyverse. I’ve already explained the Acathla thing and you said nothing different from what kana has already said.


    * Drusilla was considered and regarded as far more dangerous than Angel. That’s the actual canon.

    - Regarding “the dynamics of a fight”, I don’t remember many posters even knowing or acknowledging how Force works.

    - The canon is that Drusilla easily killed Kendra and that Kendra relatively easily whupped Angel.

    I'm gonna rely on your own technique of blaming Jasmine for every bit of canon that you don't like.
    That’s simply fallacious and I don’t respond to straw man arguments.

  14. #53
    Slayer MikeB's Avatar
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    Drusilla is not even listed on this list: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Buff...Vampire_Slayer.

    Much of Drusilla's power is because of her ability to get powerful beings to do thing for her.

    I guess it's a little difficult to nail down an exact tier for Drusilla because it'd probably depend upon what is considered canon. Only the comics show her kicking and otherwise using her legs in fights. The comics show her adeptness with weapons. Her magic abilities are more shown in the comics.

    Anyway, I'd probably list her Tier as 8-B including everything that is probably canon: Ring of Fire , Spike and Dru: Paint the Town Red , A&F S9, etc.

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