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Thread: Why Did Angelus Want To End The World?

  1. #41
    Sunnydale High Student WhiteHat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zarus View Post
    Vampires are a symbol for the decline of aristocracy.
    Wow. What a fertile area for further discussion! It deserves it's own thread, really. I never really looked at the undead in such a way before. Can you expand on that thought?
    "Strong is fighting! It's hard, and it's painful, and it's every day. It's what we have to do."

    (BtVS, ep 3x10, "Amends", 40:56)

  2. #42
    Slayer MikeB's Avatar
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    All caught up

    _______

    I’m going to try to get at basic and essential points if possible. Arguing minutiae and hypotheticals is time-consuming and oftentimes unnecessary. I do read everything posted.


    Drusilla wanted to do the Acathla thing and mentioned the Acathla thing to Angel. Angel already knew that Dru wanted to do the Acathla thing and agrees to do the Acathla thing.

    Angel doing the Acathla thing because Dru wanted to do the Acathla thing is a reasonable argument for why he did it.

    Any other explanation is baseless speculation other than the theory of “Angel would want to send the world to hell because it’d be the most damaging thing for Buffy.

    With Drusilla, he turned a chaste pure sweet nun with the Sight into an evil murderous demon.

    With Buffy, he’d be sending the world – that Buffy is supposed to protect – literally to hell.”

    But, again, “The only problem with this theory is that unless Angel fully believed that Buffy would destroy the Judge, he pretty much only emotionally hurt her by being a jerk to her about their night together before the next night Dru and he went to go use the Judge.”




    kana

    Angelus gave no indication that he was trying to please Dru
    This isn’t true; if it were, he wouldn’t much care what Drusilla and Spike thought of his failure in “Becoming Part I” (2.21) to reawaken Acathla.

    My quote: Given this; for me, it’s pointless to continue to discuss with you the Dru ingredient in Angel’s possible motivations and/or reasons for why he did the Acathla thing.

    It's pointless because it's speculation.
    You don’t seem to understand what the word “speculation” means. It basically means “an opinion or reasoning based on incomplete facts or information”. Doing it because Dru wanted to do it is not based on speculation. It has precedence: “Innocence” (2.14).

    My arguments take into account both Dru and Angelus wanting to do it.
    Your arguments take as a given that Angel wanted to the Acathla thing independent of Dru wanting to do the Acathla thing. Your arguments are speculation; mine are reasoning and/or considerations.

    Yet this seems to be something you can't understand because you seem to require Dru and Angelus having a drawn out discussion about opening Acathla.
    Huh? I said that Dru wanted to use Acathla and Angel agreed. I don’t know where you are getting this from.

    My quote: What actually happened is that Spike and Dru wanted to do the Judge thing and Angel did it

    Not what happened is Spike and Dru did 'the Judge thing' and Drusilla invited Angelus to watch the show, to which he graciously accepted.
    I’m referring to “Innocence” (2.14). Angel did at about as much as possible to be involved in the Judge thing. So, yes, he certainly “did it”.

    Your use of language is implicit that Dru desire was influencing Angelus decision, but it doesn't prove that.
    Then we proceed to go round in circles because when I address this, you argue that I'm implying either that Dru didn't want to Acathla to be opened or that Angelus was simply unaware that Dru wanted to open Acathla.
    This is completely false. My problem is that you’ve never said that Angel before agreeing to do the Acathla thing already knew that Dru wanted to do it.


    * My quote: But we do know that Dru wanted to do [the Judge and Acathla things] and we know that Angel knew that she did before he ‘signed on’ to help do them.

    This is fact, which is why your saying
    As for Acathla he didn't sign on to do anything. He simply chose to do it once he found out that Acathla was in town. There is no link in the dialogue that links Dru wanting to do it and Angelus doing it. Angelus never asked Dru what she wanted, only what she saw. He asked for information and made a decision based upon that information.
    is untrue. You act like Dru simply brought Acathla up for no reason, Angel on his own decided to do the Acathla thing, and Dru later agreed. If you acknowledge that Angel already knew that Dru wanted to do the Acathla thing, it would pretty much decimate your argument that Angel doing the Acathla thing had nothing to do with Dru.

    Anything else is speculation and requires quotes to prove it.
    I gave you the quotes and you continue to not acknowledge what happened.

    My quote: Really? That’s not what the AtS flashbacks show. They show that Angel was pretty much Darla’s puppy.

    How?
    Really, that’s another thread topic.

    Spike and Dru were the one's who actually put the Judge together, all Angelus did was turn up and watched the show.
    That is canonically incorrect.

    Drusilla never said, "We're going to destroy the world, want to help", she merely 'invited him' to her party after Spike and herself did the hard work of planning it.
    And Angel ended up going with her and having the minions block the exits. Angel ended up being as involved in the Judge thing as he could have been.

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