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Thread: Reunion after Buffy's death

  1. #21
    Scooby Gang sybil's Avatar
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    Well, some of us read the part that he believed she would die sooner, and that he was a noble thing to give up every bit of happiness he ever knew to take on the (hated) burden of his immortality, the thing he was dying to be rid of. He also does not believe that his redemption can be something someone else "hands" to him, but is something he has to earn, EVEN though he knows he never will, and completely understands he will be damned because of it. Which is too bad, as Spike understood the idea "can't change the past, but you can learn from it"--which also suggests Spike is just as "blind to himself" as is Angel, in that he is STILL a vampire who struggles with all these things driving him to (reclaim) his own humanity that also prevents him from having "perfect joy" and he struggles between redemption and damnation himself.

    Just sayin'
    HUGS!
    sybil

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    Quote Originally Posted by sybil View Post
    Well, some of us read the part that he believed she would die sooner, and that he was a noble thing to give up every bit of happiness he ever knew to take on the (hated) burden of his immortality, the thing he was dying to be rid of. He also does not believe that his redemption can be something someone else "hands" to him, but is something he has to earn, EVEN though he knows he never will, and completely understands he will be damned because of it. Which is too bad, as Spike understood the idea "can't change the past, but you can learn from it"--which also suggests Spike is just as "blind to himself" as is Angel, in that he is STILL a vampire who struggles with all these things driving him to (reclaim) his own humanity that also prevents him from having "perfect joy" and he struggles between redemption and damnation himself.

    Just sayin'
    HUGS!
    sybil
    But the moment Angel chose to return to his 'redemption' story (he can redeem himself by good actions as a human by the way) he should have stopped stepping into Buffy's life because he knows that he could have been with her and he chose not to be. I don't believe, as you know, the whole overarching duality romance angle, I think it is a destructive and tragic fantasy but he had the reality and didn't want it, the fact that he knows this and she doesn't mocks her and makes his actions with her in S8 deplorable, as if they weren't already. Whether they would ever have worked as a long-term 'real' couple is an entirely different argument but it isn't the same as Spike who has more of a realistic, less dramatised sense of his own redemption and, importantly for Spuffy, the worth of love.

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    Bronze Party-Goer bonnaleah's Avatar
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    To be honest having just read the synopsis from I Will Remember You (I acknowledge not the same as having watched it) I find it hard to see how Angel could ever face her and claim to still love her when he knows he wouldn't choose her over his own desire for redemption. I think he has a bloomin nerve to ever enter into her life again and every interaction with her, if he remembers what happened which I believe he does, is false.
    So you haven't watched IWRY then? I don't know what the synopsis said but there's no way imo to watch the episode and come away with the thought that Angel acted out of anything but selfless love for Buffy. The text from the episode even says it.

    Angel: "She'll die? - Then I'm here to beg for her life."

    The Oracles turn and walk away: "It is not our place to grant life or death."

    Angel: "And I ask you to take mine back. (The oracles stop walking and turn back to him) Look I can't protect her or anyone this way, not as a man."

    Woman: "You're asking to be what you were, a demon with a soul, because of the Slayer?"

    Man turns to leave again: "Oh, this is a matter of love. It does not concern us."

    Angel: "Yes, it does. The Mohra demon came to take a warrior from your cause - and it succeeded. I'm no good to you like this. I know you have it in your power to make this right.
    Please."

    Man: "What is done can not be undone."

    Woman: "What is not yet done can be avoided."

    Man: "Temporal folds are not to indulge at - the whims of lower beings."

    Woman: "You are wrong. This one is willing to sacrifice every drop of human happiness and love he has ever known for another. He is not a lower being."


    I'd refer you also to the episode "Hero".

    Cordy: So what? Buffy blows into to town and puts you into a permanent funk (Elevator goes down) and I'm just supposed to stand by and watch our business go belly up?"

    Cut to Angel working out against a punching bag.
    Doyle: "Hey. Is this a private catharsis or can anyone watch?"

    Angel still punching the bag: "What do you want?"

    Doyle: "Well, there's a girl upstairs who's not quite sad enough to cry in may arms, but keep up the dark cloud. I might get lucky."

    Angel punching: "I just need some time."

    Doyle: "Believe me I know. Last time I saw my ex, she was around for five minutes and I was a wreck for days. Amazing how they can do that to you."

    Angel quits punching: "Buffy was here for more then five minutes."

    Doyle: "Okay, 10, but who's counting?"

    Angel sits down on the sofa: "Actually she was here for a whole day and night."

    Doyle: "Alright. One of us has been drinking and Iím sad to say, it's not me."

    Angel wipes his face with a towel and gets back up: "Who are the Oracles, Doyle? Why didn't you tell me about them before?"

    Doyle: "The Oracles? Who told you about the Oracles?"

    Angel: "The first time the Mohra demon attacked it got away."

    Doyle: "What first time?"

    Angel: "Look, I tracked it, I killed it, some of its blood mixed with mine. It made me mortal. That's when you took me to see the Oracles to find out what it meant."

    Doyle: "No, see, I'm going remember a trip to the netherworld of eternal watching. That's just not something that happens every day."

    Angel sits down in a chair: "The Oracles told me that I was released from my duty. Buffy and I were together until - we realized it couldn't be. - We don't belong to ourselves. We belong to the world, fighting. - So, I went back to the Oracles and I asked them to turn back the clock... as though that day had never happened."

    Doyle: "Human. You were a real live flesh-and-blood human - and you and Buffy... You had the one thing in your unnaturally long life and you gave it back?!"

    Angel: "Maybe I was wrong?"

    Doyle: "Or maybe Cordelia was right about you being the real deal in the hero department. See, I would have chosen the pleasures of the flesh over duty and honor any day of the week. I just don't have that strength.'

    Angel: "You never know your strength until you're tested."

    Doyle: "Come on, you lived and loved and lost and fought and vanquished inside a day, and I'm still trying to work up the courage to ask Cordy out for dinner, not to mention the part about telling her that I'm half demon. - That should probably come first, huh?"

    Angel: "Well, the Oracles said something bad is coming. 'Soldier of Darkness ushering in the end of days' kind of bad."

    Doyle: "So much for the security of long-term savings bonds, huh?"

    Angel: "I feel something coming, Doyle. I don't know what, but I know we're a part of it."

    Doyle: "Well, if it's a fight they want - can't someone else give it to them? "It seems unfair, you know? You gotta save all the helpless types around here and now you've got to fight the apocalypse as well?"

    Angel gets up: "It's all the same thing. Fight the good fight - whichever way you can."

    Doyle: "Tell you what, you fight - and Iíll keep score."


    There's not a single word of text pointing to Angel acting out of a need for redemption. The text is very clear that the "end of days" is coming, and that because of that Buffy will die sooner. Buffy doesn't remember but she understood why Angel did what he did.

    Angel: "I went to see the Oracles. I asked them to turn me back."

    Buffy: "What? - Why?"

    Angel: "Because more then ever I know how much I love you."
    Buffy backs away from him: "No. No, you didn't."

    Angel follows her: "And if I stayed mortal one of us would wind up dead, maybe both of us. You heard what Mohra said."

    (Mohra: "The end of days has begun and canít be stopped. For anyone of us that falls, *ten* shall rise." ...."A great darkness is coming." ....."Together you were powerful. Alone, you are dead. )

    Buffy: "Mohra is dead. We killed him."

    Angel: "He said others would come."

    Buffy: "They always come. And they always will. But that's my problem now, not yours, remember?"

    Angel: "No, I won't just stand by and let you fight, maybe die, alone."

    Buffy: "Then we fight together."

    Angel: "You saw what happened last night. If anything I'm a liability to you. You take chances to protect me, and that's not just bad for you, it's bad for the people we were meant to help."

    Buffy: "So what? You just took a whole 24 hours to weigh the ups and downs of being a regular Joe and decided it was more fun being a superhero?"

    Angel: "You know that's not it. How can we be together if the cost is your life, or the lives of
    others?
    (Buffy just stares at him and after a moment he takes her into his arms) I know. I couldn't tell you. I wasn't sure - if I could do it if I woke up with you one more morning."

    Buffy sniffling: "I understand. - So, what happens now?'

    Angel: "The Oracles are giving us back the day, turning back time, so I can kill Mohra before his blood makes me mortal."
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    Slayer ubi4soft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonnaleah View Post
    Angel sits down in a chair: "The Oracles told me that I was released from my duty. Buffy and I were together until - we realized it couldn't be. - We don't belong to ourselves. We belong to the world, fighting. - So, I went back to the Oracles and I asked them to turn back the clock... as though that day had never happened."
    I never understood why Angel blatantly lied to Doyle here.
    "Gunn dies, Illyria Survives, Spike shanshus, Angel looses an arm and Xander looses an arm too, which is odd because he wasn't even there."
    Joss Whedon at the High Stakes convention - 2004

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    Bronze Party-Goer bonnaleah's Avatar
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    I never understood why Angel blatantly lied to Doyle here.
    I don't know, I guess on the surface it might seem like a lie...however when the totality of the text is considered together I believe it's a pretty good summation .

    Buffy as the slayer has a duty to protect the world...Angel as a champion of the PTB also had a duty to protect the world...End of Days was coming, meaning a sooner death for Buffy....Buffy takes chances to protect human Angel, putting the lives of the ones they were both meant to protect at risk....together they were powerful, alone they are dead...(together as in "fighting as a team" even if separately)....How then can they be together if the cost is Buffy's life...or other lives? Buffy understood and she did realize that they belonged to the world....Angel just realized it sooner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonnaleah View Post
    I don't know, I guess on the surface it might seem like a lie...however when the totality of the text is considered together I believe it's a pretty good summation .

    Buffy as the slayer has a duty to protect the world...Angel as a champion of the PTB also had a duty to protect the world...End of Days was coming, meaning a sooner death for Buffy....Buffy takes chances to protect human Angel, putting the lives of the ones they were both meant to protect at risk....together they were powerful, alone they are dead...(together as in "fighting as a team" even if separately)....How then can they be together if the cost is Buffy's life...or other lives? Buffy understood and she did realize that they belonged to the world....Angel just realized it sooner.
    Hmmm, this still isn't great though IMO. Angel has a tendency to condescend to Buffy and always try to make her life decisions for her. It doesn't fit with Buffy to not fight and look for a way through, Angel decided that it wasn't for the best, for either of them, and just made the decision I think that is extremely arrogant. It was prophesized that Buffy would die at the hand of the master, she did and she was revived by the love and support of her friends (inc Angel), he should know better than to simply acquiesce and hand his life and decisions over. Buffy has faced many apocalypses and won, this just doesn't seem 'the way' things are done. Yes, of course it is a 'greater good' sacrificing scenario but if Angel actually shared his relationship with Buffy with Buffy then they would be greater than their individual components but he never does. Buffy 'understood' because her nodding dumbly at Angel is the way they write their character dynamics, she doesn't behave like that with anyone else and she was very young, full of love and naive then. It is all yet again another example of how their romance fits into tragedy rather than triumph for me.

    I really liked Angel in S1-3 of Buffy, up until the point when he decided for them both that it couldn't work and walked away (not easily I comletely accept but he made the decision for them). This then became the pattern for them and nothing good comes of it, he never stands and fights for her and perhaps it is because 'the world owns him' and it is for the greater good, but, in which case, leave her alone and let those reasons stand because he only hurts her when he goes anywhere near. I am sorry I can't clap him realising the tragedy of their relationship in its 'never meant to be' sense when he then destroys everything around her trying to manipulate the world/scenario for his end aims. He is willing to sacrifice a lot when he gets a scenario where he gets Buffy and superpowers, then his morals waiver. Look, he does her no good, it is a destructive love and perhaps S8 will have drummed that into him now?

  7. #27
    Dedicated Spike Fan Maggie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonnaleah View Post
    So you haven't watched IWRY then? I don't know what the synopsis said but there's no way imo to watch the episode and come away with the thought that Angel acted out of anything but selfless love for Buffy. The text from the episode even says it.
    The text certainly puts it out there as a possibility. But it's just characters reacting. We get to react, too. I think Angel makes a sacrifice. I also think it's part of a pattern of him finding reasons to not be with Buffy. I can give you text on that, too -- from Buffy herself. But as I said, I think our own judgments trump the reactions of other characters. My own is that Angel is a mix of motives, some good, some not so good.

    I just wanted to point out something about Hero, since you brought up the quote:

    Doyle: "Or maybe Cordelia was right about you being the real deal in the hero department. See, I would have chosen the pleasures of the flesh over duty and honor any day of the week. I just don't have that strength.'

    Angel: "You never know your strength until you're tested."
    The irony, of course, is that Doyle is misjudging himself right here. He does have the strength to be the hero, cause the title of this episode refers to Doyle, not Angel. Another reason to not just quote character's opinions as though they were Gospel Truth.

    I also mention it because I kind of love it that the parallel episode on BtVS is Something Blue. Viewed as a set, we have Spuffy paired with the episode where Doyle turns out to be the real hero, not Angel. For a Spike-centric fan like myself it works as foreshadowing, because like Doyle, Spike goes on to die to save the world. Like Doyle, he gets a romantic gesture from the woman he loved, who didn't really see him that way (and who assumes Angel is The Hero). In Your Welcome, Cordy dusts out the tape of Doyle from this episode, to remind Angel about what it means to be a hero, in the season that deals a lot with Angel's fears that Spike is the real hero after all. I like the Doyle/Spike parallels a lot.

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  8. #28
    Scooby Gang sybil's Avatar
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    EVERY NIGHT I SAVE YOU.

    Buffy doesn’t need saving. Spike does. Angel does.

    I am following your reason and your ideas of preference for it, Stoney, but here is the thing and it is a thing that is very hard to point to, except in an Irish way. Spike is made the poet. He even gets the “poem” literally. He drinks as his means to have the “his ideal: the poetry” flow through him, as he knows he has no tongue, no song, that capture the CONCEPT behind the word “effulgent.” The word is a mule, carrying meter and metaphor, but not the POETRY: the fire. The spirits is not only the addiction to relief/release pain, it is the prayer for this connection for POETRY to take and ‘move through him” or unite the poet to the poetry.

    Angel is given the actual poetry in all the aspects I can think of, even in the voice over of Passions, but mostly he refuses the expresses of it and is the mule of metaphor; it is the search of the POET to capture the Unattainable Fire of the POEM itself. THAT is the “redemption” the Peace” the grail, Ireland herself. It is why he is given “illuminated King” symbols, even though he is “allergic” to sunlight until he STOPS being the duality. He imposes it on himself, true, but so does Buffy in her “slavery” to the idea of “hero” to save “them”—the world outside of herself when she already is THE POEM.

    Spike showed this dissolution of duality when he, was shown as Shiva, was both consumed by fire/became the fire and then NOTHING: THE VOID: FEMALE! Even though we saw Buffy going off in the ‘female role” in her dance of death and action (the fire) She was NOT consumed, but was the consuming fire. HOWEVER, She attached to fear and KEPT her army. Spike “not there” is the poet/poem.

    And he is NEVER shown “attaining Buffy.herself” EXCEPT in the SAME OBLITERATION of one or the other in that duality OF SELF. Angel loses his soul, goes to hell, and is reborn. Buffy goes to hell, and Spike goes for a soul and is reborn. All THREE have shown us the descriptive of crazy on obtaining heaven and obtaining hell, but not IT: the annhilation of duality into ONE, which Angel and Buffy show, over and over; but not the follow through of the VOID WITH EACH OTHER: poet/poem is “meaningless.” The perfection of the JEWEL/sparkle on the waters, the sparkle so WE can see the reflected illumination of the river that is always changing/still at once. It is NOT about taking out the garbage and “roles” conducted in playing house, not even the dance of “learning how to fight.”

    So is that or is that not “the same” as Angel, from you POV in HOW LOVE DOESN’T WORK? But is SUFFERING? Notice that Doyle was consume/became the fire and WAS GONE. Angel’s transformation is in the suffering of the poet who knows where the poem is, but can’t complete the union with it, in how he views HIMSELF: the mule carrying the metaphor THAT CURSES HIM.

    The story of Buffy and Angel is the fit of paradox into poet/poem that insists on suffering in duality. Spike and Buffy are “kept apart” because Buffy doesn’t “understand” she is the fire/poem and, you watch, Spike, the hero, is gonna go BUGGY!

    I also think that idea of Angel being with Buffy and Being Apart from Buffy was shown in season 8. Each is strong on the hero front of self sacrifice because they carry the other "within." They were supposed to stay strong and be ONE, in Twilight, and choose the VOID, NOT HEROING. In their UNION-end of duality in Twlight, Buffy chose "the world"--her mistake to NOT choose the VOID, that Angel accepted, which is HIS heroism, seen as "so terrible and sinful and selfish" when it is the POINT: to encompass one's own understanding of the mind: to be the 'thing' behind the actual poetry ITSELF; it led to 'the END of the WORLD' in that end of "paradox in union" to save "REFLECTED aspects of herself." It wasn't about the "dirt" or "saving Xander." Xander actually is the only "everyman" carefully "saved" as IT.

    She is attracted to the shiny of the diamond, but doesn't know she IS the diamond manifest everyone ELSE is seeking; and is therefore blinded by that light to herself.
    HUGS!
    Sybil
    Last edited by sybil; 16-10-11 at 11:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sybil View Post
    EVERY NIGHT I SAVE YOU.

    Buffy doesnít need saving. Spike does. Angel does.
    There is a reality in Spike that Angel does not have. He does have the poet about him but he strives to achieve in actual terms rather than simply feeling consoled with certainty of having a higher purpose. 'Every night I save you' is heart rendering because is not about Buffy needing saving but about Spike wanting to do the right thing and be the best he can be and feeling with every essence of his being, even though he was at that point without his soul, that he did not meet his own 'best' and let someone down that he cared about, he didn't keep a promise. Spike's ability to not surround himself with the 'deeper' meaning and to live in the here and now of his own existence enables him to connect to Buffy who is human in a way that Angel never could as Angel feels his need for redemption but doesn't 'feel' enough to achieve it. Spike wasn't expressing a failed 'duty', a failed possibility to be redeemed or claim the woman he loved he was expressing how deeply he felt his own failure to do what he felt he should. He sees his failings in a more real and grounded way than Angel tends and doesn't surround himself with intrinsic definitives to his existence that excuse whatever actions he takes and decisions he makes. I personally feel that in striving to find the deeper justification and purpose to what Angel does and is and how that matches his relationship with Buffy you remove any reality they ever shared and turn it into something that never has or could be and certainly isn't reflected in actuality.

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    Bronze Party-Goer bonnaleah's Avatar
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    The irony, of course, is that Doyle is misjudging himself right here. He does have the strength to be the hero, cause the title of this episode refers to Doyle, not Angel. Another reason to not just quote character's opinions as though they were Gospel Truth.


    I also mention it because I kind of love it that the parallel episode on BtVS is Something Blue. Viewed as a set, we have Spuffy paired with the episode where Doyle turns out to be the real hero, not Angel. For a Spike-centric fan like myself it works as foreshadowing, because like Doyle, Spike goes on to die to save the world. Like Doyle, he gets a romantic gesture from the woman he loved, who didn't really see him that way (and who assumes Angel is The Hero). In Your Welcome, Cordy dusts out the tape of Doyle from this episode, to remind Angel about what it means to be a hero, in the season that deals a lot with Angel's fears that Spike is the real hero after all. I like the Doyle/Spike parallels a lot.
    Apparently you missed the part in "Hero" where Angel was planning to sacrifice himself to save the Lister demons and was prevented in doing so by Doyle ......

    Doyle puts his hand on Angel's arm: "The good fight, yeah? - You never know until you've been tested. - I get that now."

    Doyle hauls back and hits Angel with a hard right to the chin, knocking him down into the cargo hold.

    Which is what the real foreshadowing in Parting Gifts was all about. Doyle rose to the occasion when he was tested just as Angel had done in IWRY. Doyle and Angel were both real hero's whether you want to acknowledge that fact or not.
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    Dedicated Spike Fan Maggie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonnaleah View Post
    Apparently you missed the part in "Hero" where Angel was planning to sacrifice himself to save the Lister demons and was prevented in doing so by Doyle ......

    Doyle puts his hand on Angel's arm: "The good fight, yeah? - You never know until you've been tested. - I get that now."

    Doyle hauls back and hits Angel with a hard right to the chin, knocking him down into the cargo hold.

    Which is what the real foreshadowing in Parting Gifts was all about. Doyle rose to the occasion when he was tested just as Angel had done in IWRY. Doyle and Angel were both real hero's whether you want to acknowledge that fact or not.
    As Aristotle said, call no man happy until he is dead. Happiness for Aristotle is virtue, and the upshot basically is that it's an open question until the book is closed.

    It's closed for Doyle. It wasn't closed for Angel, and his subsequent chapters had their ups and downs.

    We disagree about Angel being "tested" in IWRY. Here's some text that you often overlook:



    DOYLE: He's alive, Cordelia.

    CORDELIA: Alive?

    ANGEL: Buffy and I were attacked by some kind of demon. I- I tracked it - and killed it. A-and some of its blood mixed with mine.

    DOYLE: And you wound up with a pulse?

    ANGEL: I want to find out what kind of a demon that was. Ow, my back. It hurts. Everythingís..

    DOYLE: More real, now that you're real?

    ANGEL: Yeah. I'm mortal now. I have a mortal body. And I'm so - hungry!

    CORDELIA: (in his path) Look out, he's gonna eat..(Angel grabs one of the donuts sitting on the little refrigerator behind where she was standing and stuffs it in his mouth) everything in sight!

    ANGEL: (eating straight out of the fridge) Oh my God! Food! This is unbelievable. This is so.. You know, I forgot how good it all tastes when you're alive!

    CORDELIA: Yeah, and they didn't even have Cookie-dough-fudge-mint-chip in your day.

    ANGEL: Mmm, I want some! Can you get that?

    CORDELIA: It'll go straight to your thighs.

    ANGEL: Uhm, chocolate! Oh, (Laughs) chocolate!

    DOYLE: All right, all right, we need to focus here. Try and find out..

    ANGEL: I love chocolate! Uh, but not, as it turns out, yogurt. Urgh!

    DOYLE: Orsen! We're in a situation here.

    ANGEL: Right. I know. You're right. Let me think. and now my stomach's killing me. Cordelia, find Buffy. She'S in Santa Monica near the Lone Star. Tell her I killed the demon.

    CORDELIA: Okay.

    ANGEL: Oh, wait! Don't tell her what's happened to me. Not until I know what it means.

    CORDELIA: All right.
    ***
    Interesting that Angel's first reaction on becoming human is to go back to the agency, not to find Buffy. His second reaction is to chow down. It's all so romantic. His third reaction is to find out what it means. That's interesting because it doesn't occur to Angel that it might be a random happenstance. He assumes he's important, therefore this must mean something.
    ***

    ANGEL: What's happened to me?

    FEMALE ORACLE: It's true then, brother.

    MALE ORACLE: He is no longer a warrior.

    ANGEL: It was the demon's blood. It wasn't the Powers-That-Be that did this?

    MALE ORACLE: The Powers-That-Be? Did you save humanity? Avert the Apocalypse?

    FEMALE ORACLE: You faced a Mohra demon. Life goes on.

    ANGEL: My life as a human. I'm not poisoned or under some spell?

    FEMALE ORACLE: The Auguries say no. If it has happened, it was meant to be.
    ***
    So, no, this wasn't something special that happened to Angel. It's fated or what not, but not something the PtBs did to him. It's so Angel that he assumed it was the PtBs who had done it.
    ***
    Doyle tells Angel he can do what he wants, and he rushes off to Buffy (finally). But wait, what happens next?

    CORDELIA: Oh, please! They've got the forbidden love of all time. They've been apart for months. Now he's suddenly human? I'm sure they are down there just having tea and crackers.

    Using your metric, this means they'd be down there humping like bunnies, since what characters say is Gospel Truth, but as it turns out...

    ANGEL: (pours some tea) Would you like some more?

    BUFFY: No, thank you.

    ANGEL: I'm really sorry I kissed you like that.

    BUFFY: You are?

    ANGEL: Well, not for the kiss itself..

    BUFFY: Good. I mean, 'cause - as far as kisses go I thought it was well above average.

    ANGEL: It was incredible. I just - I-I think, maybe we'd be asking for trouble rushing back into things. Not that I don't want to - rush. I do. Believe me.

    BUFFY: Right. I mean, you spoke to the Oracles and they did say that you were cured for good. But how do we know that they really speak for the Powers? I mean they could be - pranksters.

    ANGEL: Or there could be another loophole.

    BUFFY: Exactly. And then the two of us are in even deeper and itís 'grr' all over again.

    ANGEL: It would be smart to wait a while. See if this mortal thing takes.

    BUFFY: Exactly. And even if it does, it's still complicated.

    ANGEL: You're still the Slayer. And I'm not sure what I am now. I don't know what my purpose is. I can't just wedge myself into your life back in Sunnydale. It wouldn't be good for either of us. Not to mention the fact that you just started college. And what about slaying. I mean, if you had me to worry about, you might not be as focused.

    BUFFY: Are you going to pull out a pie chart on me now? 'Cause I get it, it's not necessary.

    ANGEL: I'm not saying I don't want you, Buffy. You know how much.. I'm just saying it's worth the wait to know that it's right. I need to be sure you won't get hurt again.

    BUFFY: You know it's a good thing I didn't fantasize about you turning human only about 10 zillion times, because today would have been a real let down. So how does the mature plan go? You call me? I call you? What?

    ANGEL: We stay in touch. Just not..

    BUFFY: Literally. Funny. Okay, I'd better..

    ANGEL: Right. Remove the temptation.

    BUFFY: So, we'll talk soon.
    ***
    Let's recap so far. Angel becomes human through crazy random happenstance. He assumes it must Mean Something. It doesn't. He can go be an ordinary Joe. And he just can't go with it, can he? He's not about to grab happiness. Yes, yes, he finally gives in. But look at the first, second, and third reaction on his side. He's so sure he's supposed to mean something he can't make sense of a life where he just pursues happiness.
    ***


    DOYLE: I had a vision. It's regenerated *itself*.

    ANGEL: Where?

    DOYLE: In the tunnel where you fought it. Then it was in some sort of factory. I thought I tasted salt. Could have been the margarita.

    ANGEL: No, it needs a lot of salt to live.

    DOYLE: Well, it was very much alive in this vision, and angry if I might mention.

    ANGEL: I'll have to kill it again.

    DOYLE: Yeah, but you're human now. They released you.

    ANGEL: You want to let that thing roam free? You saw it in a factory. There is a saline plant in Redondo. We'll start there.


    DOYLE: Yeah, but if it can regenerate itself, how can you kill it?

    ANGEL: We'll figure it out. Just grab the book of Kelsor. Youíll read, I'll drive. (When Doyle stays silent) Doyle?

    DOYLE: (looks at Buffy sleeping on Angel's bed) I think maybe we oughtta bring someone a little - supernatural? Don't you want to wake the girl?

    ANGEL: Not for the world.
    ***
    A demon needs to be slain. Angel responds immediately to that. But it's not his job any more. Doesn't matter. He's going to be Big Hero Man.

    Is it heroic to run off and get yourself killed so that you can maintain your image of yourself as the Hero Who Matters? If he cared about getting rid of the demon, he'd do the right thing which is bring in Buffy -- the person who can actually get rid of the demon. His need to be The One is what's in play here, not the result. Cause the result (dead demon) would be more effectively achieved by having Buffy do her thing. And, indeed, Buffy has to go and save his bacon...

    How does Angel feel about needing to be rescued? About not being The Hero? Cut to his scene with the PtBs to get turned back into a vampire.

    It's like one of those drawings where if you look at it one way you see an old woman, and if you look at it another way you see a young one.

    I'm not here to tell you that your perspective of the hero is wrong. It's meant to be seen. I am here to tell you that the text has this other perspective at the same time. That perspective is a guy who is obviously personally reluctant to just be with Buffy. He thinks of three things before Buffy when he's first turned; he thinks of three reasons to not be with her when they are consulting about the next move. By contrast he jumps to the conclusion that he matters, that it must mean something, that it falls to him and him alone to slay the demon, and that he has to sacrifice everything to be The Hero. Is he being tested? Maybe on the first view. On the second, he's insisting on being tested. There's a difference.

    That's Angel's duality. Both realities are there. Angel does heroic thing. He's also a guy whose self-concept is totally wrapped up in being The Hero. It's the latter that gets him into trouble and sets him up for the decidedly unheroic things he does later on down the road. That's what makes his story so interesting to me. Some day, he'll get over himself, and he'll be the unassuming hero that Doyle was. Cause the point (to me) of Hero -- is that the real hero isn't the one whose entire self-identity is wrapped up in the idea of himself as a hero. It's the one who assumes he'd go for the girl in a heartbeat, but who when push comes to shove actually does the other thing. They are both heroes. But very different sorts of heroes. Doyle is the authentic article. Angel is playing the part. The good news, is that if you play at something long enough, you become it. (That's Aristotle again). Angel's book isn't done, but I'm sure that when it is, he will have arrived.

    I look forward to the rest of his journey. There's going to be more dark -- but I get the feeling he's approaching that always darkest part of dark that means dawn is coming soon.

    "I don't want to be this good-looking and athletic. We all have crosses to bear." Banner Credit: Vampmogs

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    Scooby Gang sybil's Avatar
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    I personally feel that in striving to find the deeper justification and purpose to what Angel does and is and how that matches his relationship with Buffy you remove any reality they ever shared and turn it into something that never has or could be and certainly isn't reflected in actuality. STONEY
    I am not trying to be "right" over your opinion: I fully don't understand any of what the above quote means. Maybe it is in your words of "real" or what you consider "grounded?"





    I mean I have heard unsouled Spike say, come into the darkness with me. And Buffy use Spike with soul as a confessional of all the things she feels but isn't always proud of, which is also part of being human, and Spike calls her a hell of a woman, not "perfect happiness" or his "paradise."



    I am not seeing how the latter is not human or real, when it feels like JOY to me and it seems she tends to feel pretty bad when they are parted, not exactly running away from him with a big determined grin on her face, and NOT EVEN A LOOK BACK, as he stands there, burns and the roof falls in on his head. She seemed to have dragged Angel out of the burning church and out of hell itself, so...that isn't "practical" or "grounded" or "real?"



    Spike tells what she needs to hear, or is it that Angel tell her what she already knows?



    Besides, I am talking about completely other matters, that actually I do not accept as Joss's "great belief" in duality. I think that is "the illusion." It isn't just pain to learn by, it is the attachment to false notions of self that cause the suffering. And all three "do it." Now that means "walking the wheel" until you get fed up with it. BuffyKNOWS the means, evolutionary or revolutionary. She attaches to fear/desire/duty and don't we all?





    I just see the unattainable ideal as attainable, because I know the path to end duality, have even seen the same rite as was the zen/tantra shown in Season 8, but I wouldn't speak of it. And, for those who actually understand it, YOU CANNOT speak of it, for then you are using symbols, and that means you can't not think about what you are not thinking about. THAT was the "choice" in Twilight. And the world would end. The franchise would end. But NOT to us! Or even Xander or anyone else. WE are a different story, as an aspect of the one ended.



    In learning what pain is and isn't and what suffering is about, I happen to enjoy personally speaking, the duality of "poetry achieved in poem" and poem achieved in poetry" the consuming fire/the fire that is manifest (you saw Spike in this manner in Chosen) and don't need the poet, ever in prayer for the muse to pour through him and set his words afire. He is merely "conduit" for what these two DO to unite in perfect opposition that fits together as ONE within ME.



    And I think you do know the difference, as grounded Cecily was not interested in William the poet, his poem OR his sincerity in the representation of poetry sold out wet and green in "I am a good man." Angel KNOWS Buffy is IT, case closed, but he also knows he is NOT IT to himself,as you have ALSO made claim for Spike. WHY he didn't tell her he was alive and needed to be seen as having died a hero.



    Buffy has seen Angel at his worst: I know what you did, you did it to me. And she knows what she did to him, sacrificed and betrayed an innocent. AND she had the choice to take his hand, but HER DUTY, kept her from it: prevent ANOTHER slayer from having to take on its burden to "save the world." BOTH gave up every bit of peace and happiness for the other, so I would say that was also real and what love also looks like.





    HUGS!
    sybil

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    Scooby Gang Sky's Avatar
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    It's the one who assumes he'd go for the girl in a heartbeat, but who when push comes to shove actually does the other thing.
    Just like Spike in Chosen Maggie He and Doyle are similar in that way

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    Well Spiked Stoney's Avatar
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    Sybil : I think the problem in mutual understanding for us is, to try and put it simply, that I think that the Buffy/Angel relationship would never work because they are a tragedy. They love eachother in an all consuming way that has an innate immaturity to it and I do not see any 'real life' depth and connection. I think that any depth/connection has to all be construed through deep meaning. It isn't that there is no history that they haven't expressed themselves to eachother at different points it is that it always goes wrong and they never therefore have to really test it. I think personally that as much as Buffy would say that Angel was 'the love of her life' she would find a more satisfying and workable connection with Spike in the real world. Spike did tell her that she was a hell of a woman, but he also told her that she was the one. Buffy has not expressed that level of commitment to him (as has been discussed recently in another thread) but there are deep emotions that may develop or may not. The position of a Bangel shipper to me is always potentially covered despite what happens in actuality and this is what I find frustrating. Personally, I can't look at Angel's actions in S8 and what he did to Buffy and even want to see their deep connection that overarches everything because eventually you have to acknowledge the tragedy and move on or it becomes farce. We, I fear, will never see these two relationships the same but that is OK because we don't have to.

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    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
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    I'll always believe that Angel made the right choice in IWRY. It was stated that the Morah demon intended to take Angel out of the fight ("the Mohra demon came to take a warrior from your cause and it succeeded") so Angel was right to ask for his powers back. He was right that his relationship with Buffy was not more important than the world or the people he could help save. Yes, I suppose he could have returned to Sunnydale and fought by her side as a man. However, we saw him prevent many things in LA that would not have been possible should he have not went back to the Oracles, so I think he made the right decision. In the end Angel chose his mission over Buffy. As he should.

    Of course, he completely betrays that in S8 when he prioritised Buffy over the world and wanted to stay in paradise with her. In AtS S1 he understood that he couldn't have a relationship with her if it would "be bad for the people they were meant to save." Yet in S8 he tries to convince Buffy to stay in Twilight with him and turn a blind eye to the apocalypse. So it just shows how he's far he's fallen from the hero Doyle once said he was, but hopefully he'll get back there some day.

    I think IWRY was the first real episode where it became evident that Buffy was no longer Angel's "whole world." We'll see this come to a head later in the season when they butt heads in Sanctuary ("Buffy, this isn't about you") and this episode lay down the foundations for that. Angel now had his own mission, his own business, his own friends, and it wasn't so easy for him to just dump all that to reunite with his ex. That's actually really quite OK.
    - "The earth is doomed" -


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    Scooby Gang Artea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    Buffy 'understood' because her nodding dumbly at Angel is the way they write their character dynamics, she doesn't behave like that with anyone else and she was very young, full of love and naive then.
    Buffy nods dumbly at Angel? She does the very opposite: she disagrees and yells at him, but he had already made the decision and time was about to be reversed. She also disagrees with him on many other occasions like 'The Prom', 'Sanctuary', etc. The relationship had plenty of problems, but I don't think what you describe is one of them. If anything, your description fits the meek zombie!Buffy of S6-7 much better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    I also mention it because I kind of love it that the parallel episode on BtVS is Something Blue. Viewed as a set, we have Spuffy paired with the episode where Doyle turns out to be the real hero, not Angel. For a Spike-centric fan like myself it works as foreshadowing, because like Doyle, Spike goes on to die to save the world.
    Can you say 'grasping at straws'? The writers' aim in 'Something Blue' was to mock the idea of a Spuffy romance. And yes, it ended up happening later, but that doesn't make it any less idiotic and mock-worthy.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Artea View Post
    Buffy nods dumbly at Angel? She does the very opposite: she disagrees and yells at him, but he had already made the decision and time was about to be reversed. She also disagrees with him on many other occasions like 'The Prom', 'Sanctuary', etc. The relationship had plenty of problems, but I don't think what you describe is one of them. If anything, your description fits the meek zombie!Buffy of S6-7 much better.
    I was talking in reference to Buffy accepting Angel's decisions, even if they are sometimes ones that she arguably should be party to making - he chose to leave in S3 (after a conversation with Joyce, how condescending is that, the two adults decide behind her back), he came back but she wasn't allowed to see him, he reversed time and obliterated his time with her, he decided to terrorise her in S8. Angel is very 'me' orientated, as I think Buffy can be too but she, in the early days and S8 played a responsive role to him rather than one of an equal. Spike's love empowers Buffy in S7, I know you don't like him but she lost the will to fight and he gave it back to her. Angel in S8 weakened her then took advantage, more akin to Spike trying to keep hold of Buffy 'in the dark' so to speak in S6. Spike realised that wasn't what she deserved and went to fight for his soul, Angel is currently looking at his cluck up of S8 but at the moment he only sees the mistake of killing Giles (as far as I am aware, I haven't read A&F) he doesn't see what he did to Buffy beyond that.

  18. #38
    Bronze Party-Goer bonnaleah's Avatar
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    We disagree about Angel being "tested" in IWRY. Here's some text that you often overlook:

    Interesting that Angel's first reaction on becoming human is to go back to the agency, not to find Buffy. His second reaction is to chow down. It's all so romantic. His third reaction is to find out what it means. That's interesting because it doesn't occur to Angel that it might be a random happenstance. He assumes he's important, therefore this must mean something.

    So, no, this wasn't something special that happened to Angel. It's fated or what not, but not something the PtBs did to him. It's so Angel that he assumed it was the PtBs who had done it.
    What's interesting is how your interpretations of anything to do with Angel will by default look for ways to paint him in the least favorable light possible. The fact that he doesn't run off half c#ckd looking for Buffy, but instead wants to get to the truth about what's happened to him seems to me like a mature, responsible thing to do. Discovering that your heart has started beating after 200+ years and just automatically chalking that up to random happenstance is what would have been bizarre imo. A Vampire turning human isn't your run of the mill, everyday occurrence...for all Angel knew his encounter with the Mohra demon could have been similar to what happened to Buffy in "Earshot". For all he knew his beating heart could have been the result of becoming infected by an aspect of the demon, that in the end could have caused his demise. So interpret Angel's actions as self important if you want but I believe the text and preceding history lends itself more toward Angel trying to get to the truth of whats happened to him.

    ANGEL: My life as a human. I'm not poisoned or under some spell?

    CORDELIA: Oh, please! They've got the forbidden love of all time. They've been apart for months. Now he's suddenly human? I'm sure they are down there just having tea and crackers.

    Using your metric, this means they'd be down there humping like bunnies, since what characters say is Gospel Truth, but as it turns out...
    Well as it turns out they did end up humping like bunny's.

    Here's the part you want to overlook...

    ANGEL: I'm not saying I don't want you, Buffy. You know how much.. I'm just saying it's worth the wait to know that it's right. I need to be sure you won't get hurt again.

    I can't help thinking that if Angel had jumped right in you'd have found a way to also damn him for that. He'd have been selfishly doing what he wanted without even considering the possible consequences. I think part of the differences in the way we view the episode is in the way we have accepted or not accepted the preceeding 3 seasons of BTVS. Your default interpretation of Angel up until this episode has never accepted the text that he loves Buffy enough to put her best interests ahead of his own...whereas I accept the B/A love story as the real deal and accept the text as given. So for me there isn't even a question of why Angel wants to make sure his new humanness is the real deal and not some prank, trick, spell, ect.

    Let's recap so far. Angel becomes human through crazy random happenstance. He assumes it must Mean Something. It doesn't. He can go be an ordinary Joe. And he just can't go with it, can he? He's not about to grab happiness. Yes, yes, he finally gives in. But look at the first, second, and third reaction on his side. He's so sure he's supposed to mean something he can't make sense of a life where he just pursues happiness.
    I think your recap is a radical interpretation of the text and that it bears little to no resemblance to what actually happened in the episode.

    Spike's love empowers Buffy in S7, I know you don't like him but she lost the will to fight and he gave it back to her.
    No, that would be Riley in S6.
    Last edited by bonnaleah; 17-10-11 at 05:23 PM.
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    No, that would be Riley in S6.
    Really....

    From 'End of Days'


    SPIKE
    Have you gone completely Carrot-top?

    She holds up the scythe. Goes on a stage-whisper rant.

    BUFFY
    You see this? This may actually help
    me fight my war. It may be the key
    to everything and the reason I'm
    holding it is 'cause of you. Because
    of last night, the strength you gave
    me. I'm tired of defensiveness and
    weird mixed signals -- I've got Faith
    for that. Let's just get to the
    truth. I don't know how you feel
    about last night, but I'm not gonna --

    SPIKE
    Terrified.
    I think It's pretty much said in the text that Spike was one of the main characters who supported her enough to do what she needed to do.

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    Bronze Party-Goer bonnaleah's Avatar
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    Well there's a big difference between losing your will to fight, which is what happened in S6...and having your leadership taken away....which is what happened in S7. Buffy hadn't lost her will to fight in S7...she'd just been overthrown by her traitor friends. Yes, Spike talked her through her doubts about her ability to lead and make the right decisions but Riley is the one who put her on the path to getting her fire back.
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