Eh? Riley's love did not 'empower Buffy to fight'. He turned up and she saw more clearly that what she was doing with Spike was destructive to her sense of self so she ended it. That was the right thing to do, she and Spike were hurting eachother/themselves, but please don't compare what Buffy had with Spike in S7 to her not-relationship with Riley.Originally Posted by bonnaleah
Thanks for saving me the typing time.
At this juncture I'm tempted to ask what show were you watching, but instead I'll just agree to disagree.Yes, Spike talked her through her doubts about her ability to lead and make the right decisions but Riley is the one who put her on the path to getting her fire back.
But before I toddle off I gotta say your Riley comment really comes outta left field imo, but then considering other comments that I've seen you come out with in the past about Spikes role in the show I suppose I shouldn't be totally surprised.
But hey, we all have our favorites eh?
Good heavens, now why didn't Whedon think of that one? Woulda save an awful lot of time.Personally, I think she just needed a good nap.
Last edited by sueworld; 17-10-11 at 07:08 PM.
How exactly is that any different from Buffy herself? In 'Graduation Day' she forces him to feed on her against his will, in 'I Will Remember You' she disagrees with him about not telling her he was in Sunnydale and with his decision to remain a vampire, in 'Sanctuary' she punches him in the face when he doesn't hand Faith over to her, etc. Both characters have a tendency to butt heads when making decisions they believe are for the greater good or to protect the other.
And how do you think they would have fared? The last time Angel was truly happy around Buffy dozens of people paid for it with their lives. The relationship was making neither party happy and would end up stifling Buffy's life, not to mention the lack of sex. If leaving a relationship because you're unhappy is wrong, well then, I don't wanna be right. Not to mention that if Buffy had convinced Angel to stay with her, she would (arguably) be doing the same thing you're accusing Angel of.he chose to leave in S3
How is that relevant? It's not as if he set out to 'obliterate his time with her'. That was a result of his decision to stay a vampire, a decision which was his to make and which he believed was for the greater good. I don't really agree with said decision, but I have no problem with the time reversal as an unfortunate side effect.he reversed time and obliterated his time with her,
He did? His blind worship and yes-man attitude only enabled her poor leadership, if you ask me. Personally, I think she just needed a good nap. And if S7!Buffy is so pathetic that she becomes completely depressed and unable to function whenever someone disagrees with her, then her relationship with Spike can hardly be called healthy, no?Spike's love empowers Buffy in S7, I know you don't like him but she lost the will to fight and he gave it back to her.
Last edited by Artea; 17-10-11 at 07:09 PM.
Of the two scenes below one is an incidental pep talk about how Buffy is handling her life and one is about getting her to not give up. I think you are playing semantics about the Spike conversation, yes it is triggered by her being usurped as the leader but she was emotionally battered by it and her whole body language etc is that of someone feeling rejection and she doesn't deny it when Spike basically implies she is quitting and that isn't like her. Plus, as sueworld pointed out, she directly relates the talk and the night they spent together as what gave her the strength to go on and fetch the scythe. I wonder if she would, speaking to Riley the day after their talk, have attributed the same sentiments to him or just said that he 'helped her to wake up' perhaps?
RILEY: Buffy, none of that means anything. It doesn't touch you. You're still the first woman I ever loved ... and the strongest woman I've ever known. And I'm not advertising this to the missus ... but you're still quite the hottie.
BUFFY: You know, it goes away after many bathings.
RILEY: (laughs) This isn't about who's on top. I know how lucky I am right now. I love my work, and I love my wife.
BUFFY: I know. And I kinda love her too.
RILEY: So you're not in the greatest place right now. And maybe I made it worse.
BUFFY: No.
RILEY: Wheel never stops turning, Buffy. You're up, you're down ... it doesn't change what you are. And you are a hell of a woman.
_____
SPIKE
Well, you’re not a quitter.
BUFFY
Watch me.
SPIKE
You were their leader and you still are. This isn’t
something you gave up. It’s something they took.
BUFFY
And the difference is?
SPIKE
We can take it back.
SPIKE
No?
BUFFY
No.
SPIKE
You mean “no” as in “eventually”?
BUFFY
You really have problems with that word, don’t you?
SPIKE
You can get them back.
BUFFY
Can, maybe. Should? I’m just so tired…
SPIKE
They need you.
BUFFY
Well, I…
SPIKE
It’s bloody chaos over there without you.
BUFFY
It is?
...
BUFFY
That’s my problem. I say the word, some girl dies. Every
time.
SPIKE
There’s always casualties in a war.
BUFFY
Casualties… it just sounds so casual. These are girls. That I
got killed. (beat) I cut myself off from them, all of them. I
knew I was going to lose some of them and I didn’t… You
know what? I’m still making excuses. I’ve always cut
myself off, I’ve always… being the Slayer made me
different but it’s my fault I stayed that way. People are
always trying to connect to me but I just… slip away. (beat)
You should know.
...
SPIKE
You listen to me. I’ve been alive a bit longer than you and
dead a lot longer than that. I’ve seen things you couldn’t
imagine and done things I’d prefer you didn’t. I don’t
exactly have a reputation for being a thinker. I follow my
blood which doesn’t exactly rush in the direction of my
brain so I make a lot of mistakes. A lot of wrong bloody
calls. A hundred plus years and there’s only one thing I’ve
ever been sure of. You.
SPIKE
Hey, look at me. I’m not asking you for anything. When I
say I love you, it’s not because I want you, or because I
can’t have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what
you are, what you do, how you try. I’ve seen your
kindness and your strength. I’ve seen the best and the
worst of you and I understand with perfect clarity exactly
what you are. You are a hell of a woman.
Tears stream down her cheeks as she stares down at him kneeling before
her.
SPIKE
You’re the one, Buffy.
BUFFY
I don’t want to be the one.
SPIKE
I don’t want to be this good-looking and athletic. We all
have crosses to bear.
She smiles a little in spite of herself.
SPIKE
You get some rest now.
Well I did say I thought Buffy could be 'me' orientated too.
I wasn't aware that she was able to literally make him physically draw her blood and swallow?!! She was offering him the chance to live and he was torn, but he took it. I don't think either of them did anything wrong here personally and always thought the Scoobies' reactions were unfair to Angel.In 'Graduation Day' she forces him to feed on her against his will
It is a difficult one because the decision to be a vampire is his to make but it is a decision that directly impacts on her life as it is, as it has happened in time and his choice to reverse it reverses her life too and that, strictly speaking, isn't a choice for him to make. A complicated one here.In 'I Will Remember You' she disagrees with him about not telling her he was in Sunnydale and with his decision to remain a vampire
Again, as I said, they both can be 'me' orientated but in the early days Buffy was in awe of Angel and when he decided to leave in S3 it wasn't what she wanted but she just stood and watched.In 'Sanctuary' she punches him in the face when he doesn't hand Faith over to her, etc. Both characters have a tendency to butt heads when making decisions they believe are for the greater good or to protect the other.
Badly, that is why I think he should stay away from her and stop messing up her life. How did Angel think S8 would end? Leaving a relationship because you're unhappy isn't wrong and it was the right choice but he didn't involve her in it because he doesn't, he presented his decision as a fait accompli, though granted, it only takes one person to break up with another.And how do you think they would have fared? The last time Angel was truly happy around Buffy dozens of people paid for it with their lives. The relationship was making neither party happy and would end up stifling Buffy's life, not to mention the lack of sex. If leaving a relationship because you're unhappy is wrong, well then, I don't wanna be right. Not to mention that if Buffy had convinced Angel to stay with her, she would (arguably) be doing the same thing you're accusing Angel of.
See above.How is that relevant? It's not as if he set out to 'obliterate his time with her'. That was a result of his decision to stay a vampire, a decision which was his to make and which he believed was for the greater good. I don't really agree with said decision, but I have no problem with the time reversal as an unfortunate side effect.
I don't even know where to start here to be honest. If you watch Spike and Buffy in S7 and just see blind worship and no emotional connection between them then I would suggest you are letting your dislike of a character override your perception. And, if you can't see that Buffy is in an extraordinarily pressured situation and has a huge 'duty' that may at times stretch the emotional strength of a, then, what, 22 year old(?), to breaking point as all her friends/family tell her they have lost faith in her choices then I would suggest that you are forgetting that she is human. I can't help you because I am not sure we were even watching the same show.He did? His blind worship and yes-man attitude only enabled her poor leadership, if you ask me. Personally, I think she just needed a good nap. And if S7!Buffy is so pathetic that she becomes completely depressed and unable to function whenever someone disagrees with her, then her relationship with Spike can hardly be called healthy, no?
What, he empowered her by showing her how freakin' wonderful his life was and how well he moved on from her, in comparison to her life, and by not saying "sorry" even once for betraying her by going to vampire hookers behind her back and then giving her an ultimatum a year before? Or by being such a wonderful guy that he told he wasn't going to judge her for having sex with someone that she, as a single person, chose to have sex with (wow, how generous of him!)?
You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.
Can I just say I love Maggie's idea that IWRY is like an optical illusion:
That is so trueIt's like one of those drawings where if you look at it one way you see an old woman, and if you look at it another way you see a young one
I wouldn't say Riley empowered her per se, but I did like how Riley wasn't all that judgemental.
We have to remember that Riley wasn't present for a lot of Spike's development. Arguably, he's the still the guy who tried to kill Buffy then manipulated both of them so he could be with Buffy.
This doesn't excuse Riley's behaviour in Season 5 nor does it render his words meaningless in As You Were.
Did he need to apologize? People simpy call what Riley did cheating, which is actually simplistic at best and inaccurate at worst. He's a good looking bloke, if he wanted to get himself laid, he could have done so. That fact that it was deeper than that means something. Being bit vould also be a form of self harm as well which would fit in terms of feeling a release from the pain he felt in the relationship.
Either way, one thing he shouldn't apologize for is moving on. Everyone, at least in my eyes, has the right to be in the relationship they want to be in. He didn't rub it in her face and his words were spot on. He didn't idolize her, nor chastised her, he just told it like it is and reminded her of who she is.
However, I don't think it should be compared to Spike's speech, because they are so different in their natures. Spike was in love with her at the time, gaving her the support that she needed and Riley was being a kind ex with some sweet words that helped put things in perspective. To compare them undermines them both.
As for Angel and IWRY? As far as I'm concerned, it could go either way.
If it is a test, the Oracles wouldn't say it was a test as it would invalidate it, so while there is no proof it is a test, I don't rule it out.
Is Angel patronizing in his decisions? Yes! That said, although the Oracles don't say outright that Angel remaining a vamire will save her, based upon the information given (and Oracles imply as such) he does everything he can to give Buffy the best possible chance at survival.
His virtue is putting Buffy before his own happiness. His sins are being over protective of her and perhaps being too trusting of the Oracles and the PTBs.
I didn't call it cheating. I said betraying her by going behind her back to the vampire prostitutes. It's a fuzzy area because the show treats it as both sexual and not, and as a visual it evoked both prostitution and drug use. It's both going behind her back to self-harm and going behind her back to find something that provides an erotic pleasure of sorts from other women.
I never said he needed to apologize for moving on or that this was bad in any way. I just don't see how it "empowered" Buffy to see her ex-boyfriend who used to be in love with her but left her because he felt that she wasn't giving him what he needed, move on and find a perfect partner and perfect life in less than a year. The entire episode was focused on humiliating Buffy in front of an idealized Riley with an impossibly perfect marriage and life. I hated the idea that Buffy needed Riley to figure out that her relationship with Spike was destructive, but that comes nowhere near the distaste I feel at the idea that Riley "gave her strength" by coming down from his Olympic heights that the episode artificially put him in, to tell her that she wasn't a contemptible loser, the implication being that he could have had a reason to say otherwise - before taking off into the sky in his helicopter. It looked more like another way to make Buffy feel like crap. Which isn't something that I blame Riley for, since it's now what he was trying to do but what the episode was trying to do.Either way, one thing he shouldn't apologize for is moving on. Everyone, at least in my eyes, has the right to be in the relationship they want to be in. He didn't rub it in her face and his words were spot on. He didn't idolize her, nor chastised her, he just told it like it is and reminded her of who she is.
You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.
I do get the sexual undertones but the whole Riley/Buffy relationship was a grey area. Like, Sam, I think it's pointless to recriminate. There were issues on both sides and I can honestly see both sides of the argument.
Ok, two things: Buffy can empower herself. That was never up to any man or any person for that matter. In my eyes, Riley being there wasn't supposed to empower her, it was suppose to give her perspective and remind her of how she used to be.I never said he needed to apologize for moving on or that this was bad in any way. I just don't see how it "empowered" Buffy to see her ex-boyfriend who used to be in love with her but left her because he felt that she wasn't giving him what he needed, move on and find a perfect partner and perfect life in less than a year.
To me, I don't see how his trangressions somehow strip his words of any meaning in As You Were. Riley showed her that he downward spiral isn't inevitable and that insight gave her perspective. The strength to stop using someone who loved her, came from Buffy herself.
I can understand that that's how it's represented but I didn't see it that way. At that point, Riley was doing better, but that was after his world crumbled down before.The entire episode was focused on humiliating Buffy in front of an idealized Riley with an impossibly perfect marriage and life.
That wasn't the point I got at all. For me it was about the ups and downs of life. There was a time when Buffy was more confident in herself and Riley was at a low. At this time, Riley seemed to be doing better and Buffy, not so much. The wheel keeps turning, sometimes you're up, sometimes you're down. It's not about Riley judging her from on high, it's about empathizing about feeling less than what you were, something Riley knows about.I hated the idea that Buffy needed Riley to figure out that her relationship with Spike was destructive, but that comes nowhere near the distaste I feel at the idea that Riley "gave her strength" by coming down from his Olympic heights that the episode artificially put him in, to tell her that she wasn't a contemptible loser, the implication being that he could have had a reason to say otherwise - before taking off into the sky in his helicopter.
Well that's a negative way of putting it, in my opinion. Buffy was feeling like crap but needed the strength to stop using Spike as her emotional crutch. I believe she would have done it with or without Riley's help, because the strength was always there. She just got there a little more quickly with some outside perspective.It looked more like another way to make Buffy feel like crap. Which isn't something that I blame Riley for, since it's now what he was trying to do but what the episode was trying to do.
This discussion originated as I responded to Artea saying that Buffy was a meek zombie in S6-7 more than a Buffy who didn't challenge Angel. I had, in response said:
Spike's love empowers Buffy in S7, I know you don't like him but she lost the will to fight and he gave it back to her. Angel in S8 weakened her then took advantage, more akin to Spike trying to keep hold of Buffy 'in the dark' so to speak in S6. Spike realised that wasn't what she deserved and went to fight for his soul, Angel is currently looking at his cluck up of S8 but at the moment he only sees the mistake of killing Giles (as far as I am aware, I haven't read A&F) he doesn't see what he did to Buffy beyond that.
In response to the bit in italics bonnaleah said 'no that would be Riley in S6'. This is where the Riley element and discussion came in and hence why I was comparing the conversation in As You Were to the conversation in Touched. They are completely different as Buffy tells Spike he gave her strength from that conversation to get the scythe in EoD and as I said to bonnaleah:
Riley's love did not 'empower Buffy to fight'. He turned up and she saw more clearly that what she was doing with Spike was destructive to her sense of self so she ended it. That was the right thing to do, she and Spike were hurting eachother/themselves, but please don't compare what Buffy had with Spike in S7 to her not-relationship with Riley.
There was a reason for the comparison of the two conversations, the very fact that they don't compare.
I am not sure that Angel is putting Buffy before his own happiness, as, I think, Maggie said, he doesn't like not being the 'can do hero', presuming you are referencing IWRY rather than S8 here, when I think Buffy's feelings and overall needs didn't feature high on his list of considered motivators!!His virtue is putting Buffy before his own happiness. His sins are being over protective of her and perhaps being too trusting of the Oracles and the PTBs.
Post-season 8, it's hard not to see IWRY as a rehearsal of Twangel arc, and Angel's conversation with Oracles as a rehearsal of Angel's conversation with the talking dog.
In both cases he is told that he is special and he quickly assumes that he has to make a decision for Buffy behind her back.
In both cases he is duped.
In IWRY he is told (vaguely) that the end of the world would start soon and that Buffy is in danger. But "the other soldiers of darkness" didn't arrive, the promised new end of days didn't start.
He assumes that his actions will save Buffy. But soon Buffy dies (The Gift).
In season 8 he is told (vaguely) that the end of the world would start soon and that Buffy is in danger. But as the story develops it becomes clear that Angel himself is the biggest danger and the bringer of the end of the world.
She hadn't lost her will? As I recall she was curled in a bed and too depressed to move or cry.
You know, interesting that you bring up Riley. I always thought Angel made the Riley choice when he had the Mohra effect undone. If he couldn't be as strong as Buffy, he didn't want sacrifice his power to be with her. He didn't want to be the weak sidekick in the battle against evil. When the choice was to give up Buffy, his true love, or give up all his power and just fight as a human - Buffy lost quickly and without any real doubts.
Riley left because he couldn't handle a Buffy who was stronger than he was - Angel did the same.
Though I do have to say that Riley was rather too complimentary about Spike "deadly, amoral.." (snicker).
Hmmm - correct me if I am wrong, but they did win, didn't they?
I think the point of the yes-man attitude is that Spike is the only one who realizes the choices are Buffy or the First. Once he was out of captivity, he was the only one who resisted the first by the simple expedient of trusting Buffy at all times. (And if kicking Buffy out of the house was not a ploy of the first - it sure was convenient).
You know, while I do like Spike, I am not a Spuffy shipper. I think their season six interaction was a complete disaster. But I don't think there's really any reason to negate every thing he brought to the show, and from what little I have read that seems to be what you prefer to do. Oh well, another agree to disagree.
Angel, even as a vampire was under the impression that Buffy was stronger than him anyway. It depends on whether or not you believe him when he refuted that it had nothing to do with 'playing the hero'. I see no difference between Angel wanting to have his powers to fight evil and Buffy freaking out about being powerless in Helpless, when she knows what goes bump in the night.
I don't think Angel's choice was either purely selfish or selfless. I do think he's patronizing Buffy by not including her the choice to take back the day, but I think his intention was noble enough to try and protect her, even if the Oracles didn't say emphatically that he could protect her as a supernatural warrior. The point is, he was willing to try. I don't find the concept of Angel trying to protect Buffy in itself as patronizing though. Anyone can help anyone else. Xander as a human with no powers was still able help save Buffy life.
Again, I wouldn't say that's the real story. He was a sidekick was long while and he showed no disdain about Buffy saving him many times when they were together. I think Angel did want to be a more effective warrior for the cause and hoped that Buffy would live as long as possible as the Slayer. I know Angel can fight as human but as seen in The Wish and Epiphany, Angel and Buffy's superpowers do contribute significantly as much as having their friends by their side as well.He didn't want to be the weak sidekick in the battle against evil. When the choice was to give up Buffy, his true love, or give up all his power and just fight as a human - Buffy lost quickly and without any real doubts.
That was the tip of the iceberg with Riley as well. In fact her being stronger than him wasn't the main problem in their relationship, at least as far as Riley was concerned.Riley left because he couldn't handle a Buffy who was stronger than he was - Angel did the same.
Nina (07-12-11)
I'm not a Bangel by any stretch of the imagination, but I disagree that Angel chose to relive the day because he couldn't handle Buffy being stronger than he was. Like Kana says, Angel was already of the opinion that Buffy was stronger than he was, whether you choose to believe it or not, he still said it.
As far as I'm concerned, Angel chose to relive the day in order to save Buffy. The Oracles said something about Buffy dying if Angel stayed human, and he decided his humanity was worth the sacrifice in order to keep Buffy alive.
Angel wasn't to know that it wouldn't matter either way.
Nina (07-12-11)
Buffy didn’t contact Angel. It was Willow who contacted Angel. That in itself would mean the meeting wouldn’t go well. I’ve always assumed that Spike followed Buffy to see their interaction. And he seemed rather happy in “Life Serial” (6.05).
When Buffy came back, it seems she wanted to see Spike and Giles. She ran and then shied away from her friends and Dawn and she’s never seen to even think of Angel once.
__________________________________________________ _____________________
I really consider it’d be a lot better to make new threads for topics that don’t relate to the thread topic. This thread seemed to quickly turn into a general Buffy/Angel thread and it had some general Buffy/Spike stuff in there as well. And some Buffy/Riley stuff.
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