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Thread: Xander's Role in S9

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointMan View Post
    I'd be bothered if they actually became friends. I don't get why everyone has to like Spike or its some great travesty. The guy acts like a pompous jerk half the time and people like that in real life are gonna rub some the wrong way. Plus, if they're gonna shove more Spuffy down our throat(cause 3 seasons just wasn't enough), I'd at least like there to be someone who isn't okay with it and at least makes things difficult for her.
    Oh, no! Please, no more Xander hates Spuffy and wants it to die. That Xander had died by mid S7. I don't think he dislikes Spike like that anymore, he can be objective about him as seen in S7. I don't care if everyone is in love with Spike, I want to see further developement and see those two become snarky buds.

    Quote Originally Posted by sueworld View Post
    Or even better how about 'shag buddies? I'd go with that one.
    Sigh. Me, too. But I've accepted that it will never happen except in fanfic a long time ago. I'm totally okay with lots of subtext, though!
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointMan View Post
    I'd be bothered if they actually became friends. I don't get why everyone has to like Spike or its some great travesty. The guy acts like a pompous jerk half the time and people like that in real life are gonna rub some the wrong way. Plus, if they're gonna shove more Spuffy down our throat(cause 3 seasons just wasn't enough), I'd at least like there to be someone who isn't okay with it and at least makes things difficult for her.
    Er, no, 3 seasons wasn't enough!

    Really I am just looking at progression. Everyone doesn't have to like everyone else, but Spike and Xander are both a bit prone to be up their own arses about their opinions, particularly of eachother, so it would be a change if they found a balance and we didn't just have nobody developing. I thought this thread was to think of possible S9 roles/stories for Xander and changing his interactions with Spike would be an option to see more of him. They don't have to suddenly like eachother and be buddies but they could move on from the interactions they had in S4/5, reliving all of that would be boring. If they avoided change then that would probably exclude Xander from the Spike arc other than on a superficial and snarky nature, which would again have him sat on the sidelines for another story development.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointMan View Post
    I'd be bothered if they actually became friends. I don't get why everyone has to like Spike or its some great travesty.
    I never got the impression that everybody likes Spike. Angel, for example, never did.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointMan View Post
    The guy acts like a pompous jerk half the time and people like that in real life are gonna rub some the wrong way. Plus, if they're gonna shove more Spuffy down our throat(cause 3 seasons just wasn't enough), I'd at least like there to be someone who isn't okay with it and at least makes things difficult for her.
    I really don't like Spuffy. But the last thing I need is a guy who is a spokesperson of it. But more importantly I'm getting tired of it.

    There is also no real reason for it anymore. They had the perfect opportunity for it in S7, but they chose to give it to Wood instead. So, why would they give this kind of role for Xander towards Spike now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sosa lola View Post
    Me, too. But I've accepted that it will never happen except in fanfic a long time ago. I'm totally okay with lots of subtext, though!
    And I have to say a resounding urrlgh! I could live without any subtext either. Shoe-horning romance subtext into every character pairing is getting tiresome, particularly where it is highly dubious and (fingers crossed) utterly implausible. Sorry but this would be my idea of Buffyverse hell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sosa lola View Post
    Oh, no! Please, no more Xander hates Spuffy and wants it to die. That Xander had died by mid S7. I don't think he dislikes Spike like that anymore, he can be objective about him as seen in S7. I don't care if everyone is in love with Spike, I want to see further developement and see those two become snarky buds.
    On what are you actually basing the belief that Xander just... stopped disliking Spike? I don't think one can get there without intervening fanfic, frankly. I do think he stopped with "hates Spuffy and wants it to die", just like Dawn did, but we were pretty much shown that -- over the course of "Beneath You" to "Never Leave Me", everybody just eventually gave up trying to give a damn about Buffy's crazy. The scene in "Beneath You" when Spike mentions having seen Buffy in the school, if you listen closely, you can hear the last pieces of give-a-poop leave Xander and Dawn. And by the time they are sheltering then-ambiguously-homicidal Spike at the house, Willow and Anya have pretty much given up as well.

    So, I don't think Xander cares enough anymore to express dislike of Spike, but that's a long walk from ever having reached any sort of interest or affection, let alone respect.

    Sigh. Me, too. But I've accepted that it will never happen except in fanfic a long time ago. I'm totally okay with lots of subtext, though!
    Hey, everybody's got subtext. The Buffy/Dawn fic authors are expressing the subtext they see in the show.

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    So far the Xander questions for Scott Allie presented here are:

    1) I've noticed that most of Xander's interactions are with either Buffy or Dawn, would it be possible to have him interact more with different characters like best friend Willow -whom he never shared a scene with at all in S8- and snarky former roommate Spike -whom his interactions with are always perfect and filled with awesome?

    2) Many Xander fans are afraid that Xander will become more of Dawn's boyfriend than actual characterization and growth for him. They're afraid he'll too easily disappear into the background once again. Can you give us hope that he'll have his own story arc and a story for him that we will be excited to see?

    3) Speaking as a Xander fan, is there any reason we should be excited for season 9?

    4) Will there be any follow up about Xander and the slayers in his squad?

    5) What kind of role can we expect Xander to have in fighting evil by mid season?

    6) Will Xander get to address his feelings/reaction about Angel and Giles?

    7) I was disappointed there was no mention of Xander's complicity in Buffy's bankrobbing and so on. He used to be willing to challenge her when she was going off course and he never did that in S8. I think that fits where they are, but I wish it had been a plot point for further development of that arc. Will it be addressed in S9?

    8) In S8, we got a reprise of seasons 2/3 where Buffy's love for Angel is horribly destructive. Xander's reaction to what happened in S8 (his faith and trust in Buffy without judging her or yelling at her) is a big contrast from his anger and going on a mission to kill Angel with Faith in S3. If we are going to be treating Xander as a rich well-developed character, shouldn't the writers deal with how that echoes with the season 3 conflict between Buffy and Xander?

    9) Xander has always been good at hiding his pain and suffering from his friends and yet be there for them when they crumble. I wonder after everything that happened to him in the last few years from losing an eye, to losing Anya, to losing his hometown, to losing Renee, to losing the castle, to watching Buffy betray them with Angel, and then to watching Giles be killed right in front of him. Keeping all that bottled up inside him without letting it out nor having his friends comfort him will only lead to him exploding. Is it possible that we're going to see Xander break under all that pain?

    10) Are we going to get Spike's thoughts and feelings about Xander/Dawn seeing as he used to be so protective of Dawn and probably still dislikes and disrespects Xander?


    So far the Xander questions for Jeanty presented here are:

    1) We finally got rid of Xander's uniform *wink* what's Xander's style in clothing in S9? For example, he used to have a thing for Hawaiian shirts until S5.

    2) The Xander fans are eager to see his role in S9. Can you tell us if you had any interesting or exciting scenes for Xander to draw?
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    I will try to think up some questions, but I can't help but notice one of the questions about Xander for Allie is pretty clearly a question about Spike for Allie. Spike's reaction to Xander/Dawn is no more a question "about Xander" (or Dawn) than is Andrew's reaction to Xander/Dawn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koos View Post
    I really don't like Spuffy. But the last thing I need is a guy who is a spokesperson of it. But more importantly I'm getting tired of it.
    I never said he had to be the anti-Spuffy spokesperson, not that I would mind our section of fandom actually be represented again. But if he has issues with it its going to come through even if he doesn't say or do anything specific.

    Where did you get the idea that Xander has a big role in season 9? I'd certainly love it if that were the case, but so far the indications seem to be the exact opposite. I'm really hoping something comes from the "massively damaged" and "doesn't fit in the new world" comments from the reviews. It would be nice if the complications that Xander and Dawn are retreating into are actual meaty stories and not just excuses to get them out of the way so Buffy can hang with her new BFF.
    Last edited by PointMan; 11-09-11 at 08:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoney View Post
    And I have to say a resounding urrlgh! I could live without any subtext either. Shoe-horning romance subtext into every character pairing is getting tiresome, particularly where it is highly dubious and (fingers crossed) utterly implausible. Sorry but this would be my idea of Buffyverse hell.
    Come on! You're getting a season full of Spuffy, a little Spander subtext won't hurt.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    I will try to think up some questions, but I can't help but notice one of the questions about Xander for Allie is pretty clearly a question about Spike for Allie. Spike's reaction to Xander/Dawn is no more a question "about Xander" (or Dawn) than is Andrew's reaction to Xander/Dawn.
    It probably is more about Spike, but it still involves Xander. Spike's feelings about the relationship is because Dawn is dating Xander. Plus, I wanna get them to talk about Xander/Spike any chance I get.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    On what are you actually basing the belief that Xander just... stopped disliking Spike? I don't think one can get there without intervening fanfic, frankly.
    We were shown that Xander can see the Spike situation objectively. Not only that, but he stopped jumping at any chance of dissing him. I think this is the first sign of him putting dislike aside, which doesn't mean that he likes him now. I think Xander reached a point where he doesn't really care anymore, perhaps the point of not noticing Spike, just like Spike doesn't notice him. He'd save Spike from danger for Buffy and because it's the right thing to do, not because he likes him. That's the first step, and I'd love to see further development.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sosa lola View Post
    Come on! You're getting a season full of Spuffy, a little Spander subtext won't hurt.
    Won't hurt? Agonizing hurt more like, luckily it won't happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sosa lola View Post
    It probably is more about Spike, but it still involves Xander. Spike's feelings about the relationship is because Dawn is dating Xander. Plus, I wanna get them to talk about Xander/Spike any chance I get.
    For me, either a list is being put together for questions about Xander or its not. Even if nobody had ever had a Spander thought in their life, it's pretty emblematic of the character's overall starvation for narrative attention that a list of questions about Xander has picked up a question about Spike. It's an irony worth mentioning before the list picks up a Spuffy question and a Bangel question.

    We were shown that Xander can see the Spike situation objectively. Not only that, but he stopped jumping at any chance of dissing him. I think this is the first sign of him putting dislike aside, which doesn't mean that he likes him now. I think Xander reached a point where he doesn't really care anymore, perhaps the point of not noticing Spike, just like Spike doesn't notice him. He'd save Spike from danger for Buffy and because it's the right thing to do, not because he likes him. That's the first step, and I'd love to see further development.
    Someone can see Spike objectively and still dislike him, can't they? And, again, other than that Xander helped Buffy in "Sleeper", having her look at what she could prove vs. what she could guess, objectivity about whether or not Spike might be killing people isn't the same as objectively deciding if you like the guy or not. I honest to goodness think as much as 90% of the sense that Xander grew to think of Spike as a friend exists in the fanfic. I can't find it in the story anymore than I can find any sign that Logan and Weevil actually ever liked each other, even if they could work together.

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    I think a question I'd like to see answered is whether Xander and Dawns stories are going to exist outside of each other at all. Is it going to just be "Xander/Dawn do with and Dawn/Xander do that?" or are they going to have a decent level of autonomy?

    I'm also tempted to ask if what happened between Buffy and Xander in season will will be at all noticeable in their season 9 interaction, but I'm concerned about what the answer might be.
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    Hmmm, I'm late to the party on the Xander-questions. I'd rather answer with my own harried thoughts and wishes than ask the creators questions.

    1) What was your favorite Xander storyline in S8?

    I loved him coming into a leadership role. There was an absence of "Xander as the Leader" since the days of Nighthawk. I really think that he showed tremendous compassion for the girls and I particularly liked seeing this with a romantic twist in his feelings for Renee.

    2) Do you think there are dangling threads in S8 about Xander that should be addressed in S9?

    I agreed with Maggie in her post aways back that I would like to see Xander contrast his previous controversial method of yelling at Buffy as her moral compass contrasted with his more "yes man" approach of S8. It seems like Xander had the best intention to be supportive of a beleaguered Buffy and I really think it tears Xander apart when he has to be the heavy in scenes like Dead Man's Party or Revelations so I'd like to see Xander think about how he could have been a better influence on Buffy even if he doesn't want to be the guy that tells his Hero what to do.

    3) What do you think about Xander's relationship with Dawn?

    I'm still not over the fact that S5 Dawn said that Xander sees her as a woman and the camera ironically showed Dawn with ice cream all over her face. The relationship still gives me the wiggins. IMO, one of the worst ideas of S8.

    4) Who would you like to see Xander interact with in S9?

    Buffy and Willow, most of all. Xander can't interact with Giles but I do want to see some Xander-specific mourning because one of my favorite aspects of Xander is how much he felt that Giles was a good man, worthy of all kinds of respect even when my usually beloved Giles wasn't as respectful and generous.

    I'm not too keen on Xander/Spike or Xander/Dawn interaction. If Oz comes back for an appearance, I'd like him to interact with Xander. They are my BroTP of BtVS. If Faith isn't locked away playing with Angel, Xander/Faith interaction is always of the good.

    5) What storyline do you wish for Xander in S9?

    I would really like an exploration of all the burdens that Xander has had to shoulder, without superpowers or the automatic respect. I want to see him pissed off about but in a way that props up his story instead of positioning him as a burden to Poor Beleaguered Buffy or something. I also want him where the action is. If the world is depowered and it's down to the core group to fight it, the Scoobies will have to defeat the Big Bad with common sense in a way that they haven't since S4. In that case, *make* Xander the guy that ends up (inadvertently or not) suggesting the idea and acting as the emotional glue for the spell like S4.

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    My negative feelings towards the perspective Spike-Xander friendship aside, is that really something that the writers need to allocate "screen time" for? There is so much more to do with Xander - him dealing with Giles's death and with Buffy giving an umpteenth get out of jail free card to Angel, hopefully trying to reconnect to Willow, making the relationship with Dawn work, actual Scooby stuff with him being involved in whatever plots they come up with for Buffy, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointMan View Post
    Where did you get the idea that Xander has a big role in season 9?
    From what has been told. This I said with some irony though.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointMan View Post
    I'm really hoping something comes from the "massively damaged" and "doesn't fit in the new world" comments from the reviews. It would be nice if the complications that Xander and Dawn are retreating into are actual meaty stories and not just excuses to get them out of the way so Buffy can hang with her new BFF.
    I can be good. But I don't have any hopes for it. I read it as: Xander wants a normal life with Dawn and be done for the rest of it. I also don't want it to lead to Xander/Dawn relationship problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    I honest to goodness think as much as 90% of the sense that Xander grew to think of Spike as a friend exists in the fanfic. I can't find it in the story anymore than I can find any sign that Logan and Weevil actually ever liked each other, even if they could work together.
    No one has said so. There only some who would like to see a friendship building between Xander and Spike during S9.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Shaftoe View Post
    My negative feelings towards the perspective Spike-Xander friendship aside, is that really something that the writers need to allocate "screen time" for? There is so much more to do with Xander - him dealing with Giles's death and with Buffy giving an umpteenth get out of jail free card to Angel, hopefully trying to reconnect to Willow, making the relationship with Dawn work, actual Scooby stuff with him being involved in whatever plots they come up with for Buffy, etc.

    Him dealing with Giles' death? We didn't see him dealing with Anya's death and only the minimum with Renee's death. We never will see him dealing with Giles death. Him making it work with Dawn is barely an arcline. They kiss and sleep together and have perhaps an argument on occassion.
    See, the thing is, I want alot more with Xander. But that is never going to happen.

    Spike's there and Xander's there. That's confirmed. So, screentime is already allocated. It barely cost more, but as an arcline for both of them we do gain much more.
    Last edited by Koos; 11-09-11 at 09:59 PM.

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    I don't need Xander and Spike to have a friendship or anything else really. I think the two characters are barely blips on the radar for each other. I'm sure Xander see's the darkness Spike has being a vampire and wont forget all the things Spike once did to them as well, but I know he also understands that Spike does fight with them and brings a lot to the table in the way of being a good vampire. Just as I'm sure Spike doesn't really care anything about Xander other than being one of Buffy's best friends, but hopefully he understands the important role Xander plays for Buffy. I don't need for it to be anything more than that.

    However, if a possible storyline for Xander has something to do with Spike or vice versa I wouldn't be opposed to it as long as it was done well and believably. At this point, I'm willing to try many new things for Xander (to a degree of course) if it means he gets a story thats not just him being Dawn's boyfriend or on the sidelines or just being the normal one doing his own thing. When I suggested a story where Spike see's how damaged Xander is now I meant more as a person who isn't Xander's friend. I could see him being the one pointing out to Buffy and Willow how affected he has been over the last few years because both of them do tend to look the other way since Xander makes it so easy to do that by not letting them in.

    I don't think they'll ever be friends but I could see them begrudgingly working together. They've done it before and I bet they'll do it again. These two characters both have the ability to look at things and be the one that see's as Caleb once put it. At one point, Xander pointed out to Spike that he knew seeing Buffy alive was one of the best moments of his existence, so maybe this time the tables could be turned and for Spike be the one to point out that it must be hard for Xander not to jump into the fight with Buffy as a way to get him back in, if they story goes that route with Xander of course.

    I would much rather have Buffy or Willow do this, but if Spike is the only one the writers will have a storyline for Xander than I'll take it too. As long as its beneficial for Xander and leads him back to standing beside Buffy and Willow in the fight again. Or opens Buffy and Willows eyes to Xander's perspective of things. If its a way to boost Spike up and his relationship with Buffy and in turn splinters Xander from the group even more, than no, I don't want it to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointMan View Post
    I think a question I'd like to see answered is whether Xander and Dawns stories are going to exist outside of each other at all. Is it going to just be "Xander/Dawn do with and Dawn/Xander do that?" or are they going to have a decent level of autonomy?

    I'm also tempted to ask if what happened between Buffy and Xander in season will will be at all noticeable in their season 9 interaction, but I'm concerned about what the answer might be.
    Yup, it's one of my main concerns for Xander in S9. I think my question is very similar, but I like how yours is direct and to the point. Maybe we should figure out who all wants to ask something and which questions to ask since there's a couple that are similar. Maybe we can combine a couple of the questions and that way we can cover more ground for possible Xander storyline questions.

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    Him dealing with Giles' death? We didn't see him dealing with Anya's death and only the minimum with Renee's death. We never will see him dealing with Giles death.
    Probably but I can hope, can't i?

    Him making it work with Dawn is barely an arcline.
    It's far more of an arc than being friendly to Spike out of the blue.

    I want alot more with Xander. But that is never going to happen.
    Okay, but I thought we were discussing what we want to happen too, not what we suspect might happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Shaftoe View Post
    It's far more of an arc than being friendly to Spike out of the blue.

    Disagree. It's not an arcline with Dawnn, it's a relationship. Friendship with Spike is not out of the blue, it's an arcline to get there. No one is harmed and it doesn't need to get a lot of screentime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Shaftoe View Post
    Okay, but I thought we were discussing what we want to happen too, not what we suspect might happen.
    Sure. I want Xander to get away from Buffy and Willow and start his own demonhunting gang, consisting of Slayers (from his former squat and some of Faith's squat), Witches and whatmore and have kickass storylines. Also, Faith would be included and be far away from depressing Angel. Xander and Faith have a relationship.
    A bit unrealistic.

    I guess the thing I want most for Xander is to get back to his Scotland Squat without Buffy and lead them again. But again, unrealistic as Xander is stuck with Buffy.

    Sadly. Everything I really want for Xander includes him getting away from Buffy.

    So, I'm kind of stuck to the things I would like to see and what is realistically plausable given what we know already.

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    Disagree. It's not an arcline with Dawnn, it's a relationship.
    And a relationship can't be the basis of a story arc because...? Mind you, I am not exactly Xander/Dawn's biggest fan and I doubt it will be much of an arc if they indeed decide to give it enough attention, I just think it would be silly to devote screentime to Xander becoming friendly to Spike when they have barely shown us anything substantial Xander/Dawn. Especially when every time the writers mention Xander, they seem to mention Dawn too.

    Friendship with Spike is not out of the blue, it's an arcline to get there.
    It would be an arc if the writers bother to do their homework instead of jumping right to Spike and Xander being friends. The latter sounds like a far more likely option to me, considering how many writing shortcuts they have taken in the last few seasons and how rarely they bother to show us things from Xander point of view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Shaftoe View Post
    And a relationship can't be the basis of a story arc because...?
    Was Xander/Anya a storyline? IMO the storyline of a relationship is mostly in the start/building up to it and the ending. They now already have a started a relationship and they are settled. Sure, there can be problems, other characters opions, etc, but that's something we will barely get to see.
    Maybe I'm wrong. But at this moment I see their relationship to get Xander and Dawn together so they can easily be shoved into the background. Xander goes to work and gets home with money. Dawn goes to college. And this normal, happy relationship is something Buffy will reflect on. There's that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Shaftoe View Post
    Mind you, I am not exactly Xander/Dawn's biggest fan and I doubt it will be much of an arc if they indeed decide to give it enough attention, I just think it would be silly to devote screentime to Xander becoming friendly to Spike when they have barely shown us anything substantial Xander/Dawn.
    Normally I would agree. But their relationship already has been going on for a while. It doesn't need an arcline anymore. (Well, at least for the next couple of months before Dawn dies (she is Xander girlfriend afterall).
    Xander/Spike friendship to work does need an arcline. But it doesn't have to cost much screentime.

    Don't get me wrong. There are many other arclines I would rather see happen. Xander/Spike friendship is also far from necessary. But I see it economically. They are there already. Chances are big that they will fight together this season anyway. And then staying neutral to each other is boring. And the hostility thing we have already seen.

    Just as well make it happen without taking it more energy or screentime necessary. I don't think it needs even more screentime than any Xander/Dawn development.

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