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Thread: Buffy s8 Comic Section Removed

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    ninja scientist Ehlwyen's Avatar
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    Exclamation Buffy s8 Comic Section Removed

    Thank you for your interest in Buffy Comics Season 8.

    The section is currently not available because there have been too many problems with how members treat other members.

    The moderators have given warnings in threads, made announcements, and spoken with individuals privately for well over six months. Still the misconception of what is acceptable behavior continues.

    However, we have noticed some members are trying to be better and that it is a few members that are causing most of the problems. Rather than punish everyone by permanently removing the forum, we are instituting a new policy.

    When the forum returns, every member who wishes to post in the section will have to read and make a post agreeing to the forum rules. If the rules are broken, then the member will lose the ability to view the S8 section for a period of time.

    This is different than the infraction system (which is cumulative resulting in a ban). The Season 8 section will be "no tolerance" and a first infraction of attitude will result in immediate suspension from the S8 section.

    The section was taken offline to allow most members to recognize that significant changes are being made to how the section is handled. In addition, it will let everyone see how the forum would be without the section. I expect to have the section back up in three days.

    Until the section returns, any new thread created discussing the comics, s8, or s9 will be removed.

    Lydia made the punch!

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    What? KingofCretins's Avatar
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    I don't think people are going to take it as punishment. I do think they are going to take it as an invitation to take the 85-90% of all Buffyverse discussion that happens here down the road, though, whether it's only down for a while or not. Ironically down the road to fora that are overall much more contentious than this one ever was. Other than my initial relief that my posting error message wasn't me getting banned, it was very disappointing

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    ninja scientist Ehlwyen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    I don't think people are going to take it as punishment. I do think they are going to take it as an invitation to take the 85-90% of all Buffyverse discussion that happens here down the road, though, whether it's only down for a while or not. Ironically down the road to fora that are overall much more contentious than this one ever was. Other than my initial relief that my posting error message wasn't me getting banned, it was very disappointing
    Thanks for your thoughts King!

    That is one reason I hated to remove the section even for a few days. I know that a lot of members are on different forums and the conversations roll from one forum to the next quite easily. Ultimately, I would prefer to have a forum with people who want to be here and be tolerant and have a good time posting amongst differing opinions. If it means losing members then so be it. I think this forum has always been quality over quantity.

    BF being a positive place is something I really believe in. I think more interesting discussion is created and makes this place fairly unique. We don't make any money out of this place by ads and page views like other sites might so having lots of contentious posters doesn't benefit us. BF is here because we love the subject and getting to know new people with new views. I know you know all this and am just repeating it for anyone who might be lurking in the thread.

    I am so sorry, that I caused you to lose your post. I really tried to pick a time when it looked like only a few people were viewing the section.

    Lydia made the punch!

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    Slayer Supporter vampmogs's Avatar
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    Ehlwyen, are the mods aware that many S8 fans feel very unwanted on this forum? I hate to say it but over the past few months especially, there’s been a growing sentiment amongst many of the members that the mods don’t want any of us here and consider us just nuisances and pests. Out of all the Buffy fan forums left BF is by far the least involved in fandom and most people are hanging on here by a thread. Other forums such as Slayalive, Whedonesque and Buffy-boards are securing relationships with people working on the comics and are getting exclusives for new BtVS content etc. Over the past 4 years there’s been a real shift in BtVS fandom and it’s predominantly focused on the comics now but it feels like BF has never really caught up. I know that a lot of members here are no longer BtVS-centric and have moved on but it makes for a very confusing relationship when the forum is still called BUFFYforums but it really doesn’t seem as involved in BtVS fandom as all the other remaining sites. I think this is why a lot of people took it to heart when they were told off for discussing S8 developments outside of the S8 section (in the old Spuffy thread) because this is one of the few places left where there’s such a strong line drawn between the show/comics.

    I get that there’s a lot of hostility in the S8 section and that might be frustrating for the mods. But there really is this sense amongst many of the fans that they are viewed as just pests and that the mods have been itching for a reason to dump the section. Over the past few months more and more people have started to express this and I think it’s becoming a real problem. I have to agree with King that this temporary removal of the section might be the final ‘push’ people needed to just migrate to the other forums. I’m sorry if I’ve stepped out of line but I think it was important to bring this to the mods attention, in case they weren’t aware this is how many members were feeling, as it’s really causing a tension amongst a lot of the members here.

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    I get that there’s a lot of hostility in the S8 section and that might be frustrating for the mods. But there really is this sense amongst many of the fans that they are viewed as just pests and that the mods have been itching for a reason to dump the section. Over the past few months more and more people have started to express this and I think it’s becoming a real problem. I have to agree with King that this temporary removal of the section might be the final ‘push’ people needed to just migrate to the other forums.
    Extremely well put.

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    ninja scientist Ehlwyen's Avatar
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    Thanks Mogs, I appreciate your thoughts. Honestly, no one on the forum comes to me or makes posts in the website section with suggestions on what can be done to make the forum better and what they want to do to help. This is for all sections of the forum.

    Basically all the mods hear are that people are being rude. Many times we agree and sometimes we think members are being too sensitive. It's a tough line to navigate.

    The mods have nothing against the comics or the members that post in there. However, because new and often shocking story lines are being discussed in there, it gets a lot of activity and a lot of passion. So obviously it is going to be the section that the mods reference the most as being troublesome. With the show, most plot lines have been around long enough that they are accepted and not as heated discussions.

    I want the Comic section to succeed. Simple as that, I may not be caught up, but I collected every comic in both covers. (Real life got me behind.) I am dying to read them even though I am fairly spoilered, but most days when I check into the forum, there is a fire that needs to be taken care of.

    However, this forum was created on the tv series. That is what many of us love the most - the story that was told. In order to survive those years while nothing Buffy was happening, the forum spread into television show discussion with a focus on shows that other Buffy fans would enjoy. It was here first and is the same media as Buffy was and interests lots of members. We had no idea how the members would react to discussion of the comics. I was pleased that the section had so much interest. In the past we have tried to keep the comic sections separate so as to not alienate the fan base that is just getting into the show or hasn't had the opportunity or wish to read the comics. I know I haven't made any moves recently towards keeping the discussions in the general Buffy section out of S8 territory.

    It doesn't surprise me to hear that some members feel S8 is unwanted. We have warned a lot of people for behavior in the section. However, I do think there are a lot of members who have read the comics and want to post in the section without being prepared for a fight.

    As far as new content, that would be nice. But someone with more time would have to be in charge of seeking it out. I am always open to suggestions.

    I know I have put a lot of effort into trying to meet new members and open the forum up for s8 posters to be in the community. I organized two forum party/open houses in the last six months, both which were pretty much ignored by S8 members to even drop by and say hi or talk about any topic. I also try to pm members as they reach VIP status so they might come into the section and meet other members and take a break from Buffy.

    So the feeling of being unwanted goes both ways. But none of this remotely has anything to do with why I have taken down the section for a few days. I want to create a new friendly start for the section. And taking a break is the best way.

    Ultimately, I want S8 posters to be here and to have fun. Hopefully that is why S8 posters are coming to the forum.

    I hope this does not sound blunt, I wanted to reply to you rather than leave you waiting, but I have some things that need to be done this afternoon. I really appreciate your thoughts and will continue to consider them.

    Lydia made the punch!

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    Dedicated Spike Fan Maggie's Avatar
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    Hi Ehlwyen,

    I've been on the forum for some time now, but am pretty much exclusively involved with the season 8 thread. It was the comics that brought me into the on-line fandom in a serious way. Anyway, we've never been properly introduced, so "hi"!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ehlwyen View Post
    The mods have nothing against the comics or the members that post in there. However, because new and often shocking story lines are being discussed in there, it gets a lot of activity and a lot of passion. So obviously it is going to be the section that the mods reference the most as being troublesome. With the show, most plot lines have been around long enough that they are accepted and not as heated discussions.
    I'm glad to hear you say you understand that -- because sometimes the announcements and warnings have sounded like you think we are just bad people. I wasn't in the fandom when the show was on the air, but my understanding is that acrimony was very, very common.

    I actually came to this board as a refuge from DH, and while tempers can certainly rise, I feel a real affection for this community. I'd be sorry to see it dissipate, since this is now my #1 go-to place for comic discussion.

    I know I have put a lot of effort into trying to meet new members and open the forum up for s8 posters to be in the community. I organized two forum party/open houses in the last six months, both which were pretty much ignored by S8 members to even drop by and say hi or talk about any topic. I also try to pm members as they reach VIP status so they might come into the section and meet other members and take a break from Buffy.
    This I haven't been aware of. I don't know if I have VIP status or even what it is. I've been around for years now, but maybe it takes some special recognition or something. I wasn't aware of forum parties or open houses. To be clear, I haven't been seeking out that stuff - but mostly because it never occurred to me that it exists. I'm not sure where your advertisements have been placed. It's possible I missed them because I find I spend enough time as it is on the one section I frequent most often.

    Anyway, I just thought I'd pass it along. I have been feeling like you pretty much don't want us here. Your post helps me see your POV, which helps. And I can certainly see why it'd be draining if people are clamoring for help with rude posts and the like... and especially annoying if you see the heart of the board as lying with the TV-show and not the comics.

    Pretty much, I will go wherever my peeps go. These are the people I most like talking to. There are a couple of other places where comic book discussions happen - but I'm invested in this crowd.

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    Moderator Sosa lola's Avatar
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    I haven't noticed rude posts in S8 lately, but I haven't been to shipper threads like the Bangel one and the Spuffy one, so I assume the rudeness was there.

    I can understand why S8 includes rude posts, it's new canon, new developments are happening, emotions ought to run high. I was there when the show was still on air (S6 and S7) and it was scarier than now. Wow, the rudeness! It's a must with new canon. People become frustrated with new storylines and lash out.

    On the other hand, I don't like rude posts. I'm in another forum where people can be rude and get away with it and I couldn't bare it. Happens a lot in LJ, too, but LJ isn't a forum and unless the LJ owner has a problem with it, people can be as rude as they want. Forums are run by mods to keep the place civil, which is something I appreciate a lot. I don't like when someone's opinion is belittled and laughed at just because people have a different opinion. I know I must have lost my temper a lot and said inappropriate things that I wanna beat myself over. The best solution is to take a step back from a discussion, cool down, and then return with a rational reply. Actually replying objectively without sarcastic comments makes your post more plausible.
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    Slayer TimeTravellingBunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vampmogs View Post
    Ehlwyen, are the mods aware that many S8 fans feel very unwanted on this forum? I hate to say it but over the past few months especially, there’s been a growing sentiment amongst many of the members that the mods don’t want any of us here and consider us just nuisances and pests.
    Hm, I've never felt that way, probably because the season 8 section is by far the most active part of the forum (except maybe for Games - and the Games section is another testament that the majority of the most active posters have read the comics, since we've included season 8 in the Buffy episode elimination game and the Best Buffy/Angel writer game), and most members who post in General/Buffy/Angel sections post in S8 as well. If it weren't for the S8 comics, I probably wouldn't have even joined the forum, since the rest of the sections aren't that active and threads die very quickly. That's especially the case with the Angel section, but the General section can also go for days without a new post, and it's a pain trying to keep the threads alive.

    The Spuffy thread in the Character and ship section had just two pages with only shipper posts, until people started discussing the development in the comics. When the mods moved the Spuffy discussion to the S8 section and made a new threads, Spuffy in the Comics, it proved to be a brilliant move because the thread got even more more popular and grew from the few pages into a giant 60-pages discussion thread. Meanwhile the old thread gets a new post twice a month at best. Few people go into the Character and ship section.

    I don't think that there has been any more rudeness in the S8 section than in the other sections where there's a debate going on. If there are more rude posts in S8, it's because there are a lot more posts in general.

    Ironically, some of the discussions that have produced most heat, and therefore rudeness, weren't related to the comics at all, but to the shows - such as the debate about the nature of vampires & soul vs soullessness, which went on the 'Buffy and Angel moving forward' thread. That same discussion happened in the General section a couple of months ago, but in the meantime the thread (Soul vs Memories) died. The discussion about Spike in general and his story and, again, the nature of vampires, was also carried in some Buffy section threads, like Xander throughout the shows or Bander in S2. There was more rudeness in those two threads than there has been in S8 section.
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    This is news, even to me because I did know that there's a lot of people on the season 8 topic discussion threads. I didn't realize it was that much of chaos as figured. I guess that's what happens when people make rude remarks. Also, I never thought the mods thought we were pests myself. They're just doing their jobs after all.

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    Well, as mods you have to do what you feel is in the best interest for the kind of forum you want to run. For the record though, I was also in the Harry Potter fandom for a few years, and the level of discussion on the Season 8 comic threads was incredibly tame compared to that and relatively mature. However, I can understand if you want to keep it that way. I think though that sometimes people will need to understand that when you're debating something, things will get heated and as long as people commit to playing the ball instead of the man, things discussions should be allowed to evolve.

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    sharing the same relief as King for the same reason..

    But I didn't see or experience the S8 turning 'ugly' firsthand so I'm probably not the best judge for that. I will say compared to other fandoms, the S8 one was relatively tame, partly I would guess b/c there was so little source material to argue about.

    About the most memorable and heated discussions I saw were about shipping and that's par for the course with most fandoms IMO.

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    I'm a Mod on another Buffy Forum, so I get why the Mods here are fed up with member behaviour; However, I've just got to tell you that you've got a great discussion forum here! It actually has discussions (not just a series of short comments as so many forums do) - This is THE place to come for in-depth, thoughtful, intellegent Buffy conversation and most of that takes place in the season 8 threads. I have never found things particularly bad or offensive here. Most people seem quite well behaved even when things get tense or argumentative. I really hope you bring the season 8 threads back soon because I have a real affection for this place
    Last edited by Tranquillity; 13-05-11 at 01:52 AM.

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    I look forward to the return of the comics forum. The quality of debate is very high here. Personally, I enjoy discussing Spuffy with non-Spuffies like King and Vamps and I have no problem with well-thought out objections to Spuffy. But I do understand frustrastions with posts where expressed dislike of a ship is based solely on how it affects one's own ship preference.

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    I can't say I'm surprised by this news. While I've seen much worse in other online forums, I do think there was a growing problem here. More and more often do I find myself reading certain comments in disbelief at how hostile they can be. I'm not so sure completely terminating the section was a good idea as it does seem to be the most popular board outside of our fan art and games area, but hopefully this will calm things down for a little while. There had been countless infractions and messages announced warning us of something like this, so I really appreciate you at least giving us a heads up. It definitely makes this development easier to handle.

    All of the posts above have summarized many of my feelings quite well. I agree with Mogs that there was definitely a feeling of being unwanted lately. I sympathize with you for having to take such extreme measures, but I feel when you’re never seen or heard from except to hand out punishments--it doesn’t always send out a nice message. Obviously a mod cannot be expected to participate in every discussion or be involved with all aspects of the forum, but if there was at least one of you keeping things in check, posting often, and spreading happiness there might not be so many issues. With that said, I do think more members should actively be trying to post outside of the S8 section though. The parties you set up were a great chance to make new friends and keep everyone happy.

    When the forum does return (if at all), do you know if all of the threads will still be there? Or will all of our discussions have disappeared?



    Anyways, as sad as this is, I’d still like to thank the Moderators here for all the work they do continuously do behind the scenes to keep the peace. Buffy Forums is a very unique place in terms of the discussions and quality. This decision had undoubtedly hurt some people’s feelings and I’m sure a few will disagree, but in the long term this might be for the best.

    Hopefully it’s back soon, and our comic discussions can return...on an even more pleasant note than before!
    Last edited by CaptainOats; 13-05-11 at 04:05 AM.

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    It's always sad when people can't be mature enough to discuss something they love without being hostile to other people. I think you guys, as a staff, do a great job of keeping the hostility to a minimum. It sucks that the forum for Season 8 had to be taken down for a while, and hopefully certain people will learn their lesson.

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    Obviously, I can't say that I frequented the Season 8 section on a regular basis. However, I agree about the tension in that thread. When I did go in there for a short time, I saw people being rude and een ignoring members just based on their opinions. I would think that this would make members feel unwanted or excluded, not the mods warnings. I believe the break was a good move and will give those members time to reflect not only on past actions, but what the forum would be like without that section. It might even give some of them the opportunity to branch out and try out some other sections of the forum.

    Also, going off of the comments about the S8 members feeling like pests or just generally unwanted, I know how that feels. I believe that our moderators do everything they can to make this forum a fun, happy place to be. Not to mention keeping in-depth and meaningful discussions going daily, which you usually don't get on other forums. So when you get warned, just remember that they're not doing it to be mean or spiteful, or just because they don't like you. When a mod warns you about something, they're not picking on you. I know from personal experience that these warnings make you feel bad, but you have to think of it in the way that they are giving you another chance. Seriously, if the mods really wanted member(s) off the forum they could ban you without question. But none of them want to see members go and that's their way of doing what they can to make sure that doesn't happen.

    As for our forum being lax in new BtVS content, a lot of the members contribute to that by making their own in fan fictions, art, etc. Although if member(s) had an idea to bring more to the forum, I'm sure the mods would love to hear them out.
    Last edited by Kiera; 13-05-11 at 06:08 AM.

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    Library Researcher Amber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainOats View Post
    I sympathize with you for having to take such extreme measures, but I feel when you’re never seen or heard from except to hand out punishments--it doesn’t always send out a nice message.
    I am not being argumentative here, but Lyn has been an active member on the forum since it's creation and on the forum over at our old home Buffyworld. Lyn regularly participates in conversations on the forum greeting new members, chatting with folks in VIP, entering fanart challenges, and has run many fanart challenges herself. She has been very friendly and personable with the members of the forum, so I strongly disagree with your assessment. Just because she doesn't post in your favorite section does not mean she does not post. Like I said, not here to argue but saying she only hands out punishment is simply not true. She is one of the nicest people I know and dislikes nothing more than having to be a bad guy.

    ALSO, the season 8 section is my personal favorite aside from fanart but I had to stop posting in there because every time I did it seemed like someone wanted to argue with me. Just sayin. I became a lurker on that section because of the negative attitudes in there so I can't say I entirely disagree with this. I hope everyone can come to an agreement and bring the section back.
    Last edited by Amber; 13-05-11 at 06:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber View Post
    I am not being argumentative here, but Lyn has been an active member on the forum since it's creation and on the forum over at our old home Buffyworld. Lyn regularly participates in conversations on the forum greeting new members, chatting with folks in VIP, entering fanart challenges, and has run many fanart challenges herself. She has been very friendly and personable with the members of the forum, so I strongly disagree with your assessment. Just because she doesn't post in your favorite section does not mean she does not post. Like I said, not here to argue but saying she only hands out punishment is simply not true.
    Oh I didn't mean that at all honey! I'm fully aware of how helpful, kind, and loving she is. Over the past year I've gone through some hard times in my own real life, and she's been one of the nicest people to me, always willing to give advice and listen. In fact it's the people like her that make this forum work and why I always return. My comment was only in regards to the Season 8 board. As pointed out already, many of the hardcore Season 8 posters stick to the Season 8 section full time--and they only see the mods stepping in when necessary. I don’t favour one section over another, so I’m aware of how much awesome work they do elsewhere. I probably should have been clearer. Looking at what goes on in the Season 8 area and from conversations I've had with some of the people who’ve gotten in trouble before, I was simply suggesting why people feel unwanted. I know a few of the moderators here that have read the comics, but they don't post. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but one every now and then might not hurt. As our leaders, I was simply hoping they were involved more often, so as to not appear so 'cruel' and 'dictator' like, which I've heard them called before.

    I have the utmost respect for our mods here, and I'm completely in favor of letting the Season 8 feuds boil down for a while. My comments were in no way intended to be nasty, so I apologize if they came across that way.
    Last edited by CaptainOats; 13-05-11 at 07:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainOats View Post
    When the forum does return (if at all), do you know if all of the threads will still be there? Or will all of our discussions have disappeared?
    Don't worry, the section and all threads therein are completely safe and will be restored in due course. They are just invisible for a couple of days while the new policy is implemented.

    Believe me, this is not a step that has been taken lightly, nor is it something that we wanted to do. But the level of hostility in that section kept escalating, despite all efforts to curb it, and that simply isn't something we want for this forum, which has for many years been a safe haven from that kind of atmosphere. Something had to change, so it is with great regret that we have had to take steps to make ourselves heard.

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