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Thread: Spuffy in the Comics

  1. #41
    Slayer Emmie's Avatar
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    The conflict to me comes in when I imagine the audience is rooting for this guy to be killed and cheering Spike on for making sense, only Buffy continues to refuse. She'd be sticking to her guns at the cost of people dying. The idea of being so stalwart and inflexible in your moral standing that you fail to protect your own when you're within rights.

    Couldn't you see Buffy reacting to her year of bad moral choices by boomeranging back to the opposite extreme?

    It's interesting. And it'd provide tension between the characters based on who they are in relation to their mission, not just how they feel about each other romantically.

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    Looks like the next season will be dealing with remaining slayers becoming dangerous. And Spike may be considered the best expert on killing Slayers. It's a great potential for drama.

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    Well, that's where I want her, personally. I love "The Gift" and how it's almost as if she lacks free will on the subject of not killing Ben. I think Giles was being more or less literal when he said she couldn't. In the "Batman" epic "KnightsEnd",
    Spoiler:
    Bruce goes to Lady Shiva for training to be ready to fight for the mantle, but she wants to turn him into a killer and continues to send assassins, so he actually has to manage to create the illusion that he has killed one of them to get her off his back. Dick and Tim are both horrified at the idea that he's killed someone, precisely because it was always so impossible.

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    Dedicated Spike Fan Maggie's Avatar
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    I'm not much interested in revisiting a world where Buffy has the moral highground. That's my resistance -- though I get that it'd be good to test Spike's shiny new morality. We've had Spike being beneath Buffy for ages, he's just pulled even. Why revisit the old story by pushing him down again. (Especially in the wake of her year of moral ambiguity.)

    I can see them each getting involved with others because of crossed wires/mutual ambivalence about getting really close to someone. I can also see conflict if Spike feels the need to help Angel out of loyalty. The two conflicts could be brought together if Spike gets involved with Faith... or if Buffy mistakenly thinks he's getting involved with Faith. Finally we could just have Spike end up getting kidnapped or something with Buffy having to rescue him. It'd follow up the my hero jazz. But I doubt they laid down the "rescue the prince" line ages ago to have something to do with Spike.

    BTW, re: Big Ben. Either that's a Xander-summons-Sweet sort of thing where the moral angle is an artificial by-product of something that's really just a joke. Or, Spike realized it was too late to swerve and consoled himself with the joke of it. It's a pretty meta moment. Spike always entered by knocking down the SD sign. So he knocks down Big Ben when he goes back to his other (real) home.

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    Maggie, I didn't take the weight of that decision as a bad. But I also think that while Spike's got a firmer hold on right and wrong, he's not perfect and there's still a part of him that viscerally enjoys destruction 'cause that's how he's metaphysically built. I think he channels those urges into fighting demons (like how he lights a cigarette after fighting the demon in "Get It Done"; sex and violence) and in my opinion, the primal (demonic )part of him that enjoys violence isn't exactly discriminating on who the punches hit.

    Also, I think there's a difference between being morally sound or superior, and overcompensating morally because you're afraid of being bad and effing up. The latter is the appearance of moral superiority, but it's done for the wrong reasons. It's more complex than "Buffy's morally superior to Spike again."

    Also, I see it more like Buffy's rebuilding and recontextualizing her sense of right and wrong after the past year. Someone being uncertain of what's right is not necessarily morally superior. It's complicated.

    This is interesting actually. I think you see Spike as whiter than I do. He's my favorite guy and he's good, but I still think he's capable of committing violence and even girding himself to do what's necessary. Again, torture in AtS Season 5 ("Screams. Various fluids. And a name: Vahla ha'nesh.") and he didn't even bat an eyelash. I think that's partly because of where the crew was that year in W&H (everyone in that episode was tossing around torture very casually), but it's also true that Spike shrugged it off like it barely touched him (where as Gunn and Wes were falling apart).

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    That's actually to me one of the moments that could be read as a small reminder of the simple alien-ness of Spike (and Angel), for the simplest of reasons --

    Cordelia: I don't even know who you are anymore!
    Angel: I'm a vampire. Look it up.


    If you saw "Star Trek II", you may remember the short exchange when McCoy tries to stop Spock from entering the dilithium chamber:

    MCCOY: No human could survive the radiation in there.
    SPOCK: As you are so fond of pointing out, I am not human.

    Or, in the original "V" miniseries, an even more awesome moment is when Robert Englund's alien character goes into a chamber flooded with leaking nitrogen gas to rescue human plant workers, a plant foreman (human) runs up to one of their Visitor consultants in panic --

    FOREMAN: There's no way a human being could survive --

    (Visitor stares at him, hard, expressionless)

    (Foreman remembers that isn't a problem)

    Point being... torture, blood, screaming. He's a vampire. It's not as big a problem for him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    Point being... torture, blood, screaming. He's a vampire. It's not as big a problem for him.
    Yeah, that's essentially what I'm saying. He's a vampire. With a soul, sure. But still a vampire. He craves ripping into people's necks when he's sitting next to them sharing a cuppa. That doesn't just go away 'cause he's soulful. Instead, it makes him feel horribly guilty about the urges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moscow Watcher
    I'll try to find time to look through Q&A sessions at Slayalive. I think there are some good Spuffy quotes there.
    Good call. I'll have a look-see, too.

    Going by #40, Spike and Buffy seem to have a healthier, easier rapport than ever. Going by any Whedonverse product in existence, Joss can't write healthy, easy relationships for extended periods of time. What untapped sources of tension do you think he still has at his disposal, where Spike/Buffy is concerned?

    An obvious source of tension is the "I love you" -- "No you don't" exchange, but I highly doubt that Joss is going to touch that one. I'm more apt to side with Maggie and Moscow on the idea of triangles or pseudo-triangles. For instance, there was never a better time for Spike and Buffy to discuss Angel and Buffy. If they don't do it now, they probably never will. (Buffy/Spike/Faith also sounds likely, but I'm a bit resistant to it; for one thing, Spike/Faith is too obvious and easy in the "Ooo, they both smoke, wear leather and play second fiddle, they're made for each other" sense, and for another, they've avoided it this long, why go there now?)

    I like Emmie and King's idea of an ethical debate, too, although I don't know how one would do service to the characters in such a case. If Spike is anti-killing, the halo that's already started forming over his head shines brighter than I'd like, and if he's pro-killing, we just get a repeat of Dead Things. (Oh, and I had a good chuckle at your "position" joke, King. Don't feel bad! *patpats* You've come a long way if you can make jokes about that scene. I'm proud of you. )

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie
    Finally we could just have Spike end up getting kidnapped or something with Buffy having to rescue him. It'd follow up the my hero jazz. But I doubt they laid down the "rescue the prince" line ages ago to have something to do with Spike.
    I don't think they'll go there. It would just be a repeat of Season 7 -- and no artist can replicate Sarah's look in the final scene of Showtime.

    Season 8 leaves the Spike/Buffy/Angel triangle in a really odd place. One of the predominant "endgame" theories in my mind had one of the vampires shanshuing, but Buffy ending up with the other, non-human one, 'cause... that's just what Joss does. However, as things stand now, I can't tell which is less likely: Angel getting the Shanshu, or getting Buffy.

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  9. #49
    Dedicated Spike Fan Maggie's Avatar
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    Did Angel show visceral signs of being into the torture? I haven't watched enough AtS to know. They both clearly have a blood lust. But the conscience usually works with a big 'ew' on that stuff. We do have the one seen in AtS of Spike being all about the torture. But I need to see it again before I decide it's a character trait rather than a one-off due to W&H messing up judgments.

    Not saying they couldn't go that way with Spike. But I really don't think they have to -- and for obvious reasons I'd rather they didn't.

    Hey -- since we've also had scenes of Buffy getting off on torture, maybe she could be the one to do it with Spike being squicked out.

    Or maybe they could find themselves doing it together and then deciding to stay the heck away from each other because they bring out the 'ew' side of each other.

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    Going by #40, Spike and Buffy seem to have a healthier, easier rapport than ever. Going by any Whedonverse product in existence, Joss can't write healthy, easy relationships for extended periods of time. What untapped sources of tension do you think he still has at his disposal, where Spike/Buffy is concerned?
    Can't really think of one at the moment. I don't see the triangle thing working with Spike/Faith/Buffy. The chemistry between Spike and Faith was eons ago and i think it got destroyed when Spike kicked Faith's ass and chose Buffy in season 7. There was no hint in season 8 alluding to the potential of these two. Faith is also the one helping Angel, very unlikely that Spike wants anything to do with them seeing as he hates the guy.

    Same goes for the idea of Spike being jealous of Buffy crushing on Xander. Seems more like some weak attempt to make Xander the manly man that has both Summers girls in heat for him, no thanks.

    And the final triangle with Angel. Looking at issue 40, bangel and thus Angel's part in the triangle got dropkicked back to the stoneages. Buffy aint gonna be thinking of Angel in a romantic way for a very long time if ever. There might be some tension at the end of season 9 when all must unite to fight the big bad. Buffy or Spike will voice their displeasure, if by then they have hooked up which seems very likely then i suspect one will able to convince the other with a speech.

    I don't think the enemy in season 9 will be a normal human, atleast i hope not. And i also don't think that Buffy has the same no-killing code as Batman. Buffy has been willing to kill and torture in the past depending in what situation she's in. Same goes for Spike, he would follow her wishes. What he might do was like Giles in the Gift. Spike already consider himself damned, so killing an unrepenting killer won't bother him that much.

    Going by issue 40, there will be slayer enemies in season 9. And just now in the Scott Q&A he makes a reference to Nikki always being rememberd as being killed by the slayer's boyfriend Spike. This suggest to me that they might have already brainstormed on that a bit for season 9. Spike's role in s9 might have something to do with that, his connections to slayers and being closest to THE slayer. If there are truelly powerful slayers(not the puppy weaklings from 40) out there that want to kill Buffy, I could see her getting her ass kicked or about to get killed and a ruthless Spike steps in to help. The one he said in season 7 that Buffy had never met. Or just seeing him right as he kills the slayer. That would provide much tension in their relationship. Seeing is much more profound then just hearing. I always thought that if Buffy had seen what Angel did to Dru instead of him just telling her, she might have been just as disgusted as faux-Cordelia was.

    Also a chance that the tension won't be between these two if they decided to hook up. The tension might come from other non-romantic pairings. As is said in the Q&A, this series won't go on forever, there will be an ending and i think that the pairings that will last are starting to be formed now. I'm not one of those that think that as soon as a pairing is happy Joss will set out to destroy them, not anymore atleast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moscow Watcher View Post
    Yes, I think she tries to say "I broke you love and trust" - but, of course, Spike doesn't interpret her words that way, because he doesn't believe that she had ever loved him. To him, Buffy's behavior is just "weird".
    Yes, Spike was just making a casual remark about the scythe and didn't understand why she was suddenly getting 'weird' and running away. And I just realized that the word "thing" was used at least a couple of times to refer to their relationship. In "Dead Things" he asked: "What is this thing we have?" "We don't have a thing". Then in that conversation I quoted from, in "End of Days", Spike said about the night they spent together cuddling in bed "Let's not make a thing out of it", before they started talking about the scythe as "this thing", and then went on to talk about what the previous night meant (and still didn't manage to decide if they were having a relationship, instead it was left at "Maybe after..." "Let's go be heroes").

    Quote Originally Posted by Moscow Watcher View Post
    I think it will be Angel and Faith. Separately, of course.

    I can imagine a scenario in which Buffy's team desperately needs Angel's help, and Buffy flatly refuses to work with him, but Spike insists... and Buffy's Spangel nightmares start again.

    Another scenario is Spike spending time with Faith, helping her to bring Angel back.
    Speaking of which - unrelated to Spuffy, I'm really curious what the next interaction between Spike and Angel will be like. Angel did try to kill him, but he was possessed by Twilight, but then again... it was in a very personal manner which makes you wonder if there wasn't still some Angel in there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Moscow Watcher View Post
    I think it will ultimately boil down to relationships. I don't think that Spike can suddenly lose his soul for a while, or something like that.
    Nah, of course not. I don't think Buffy and Spike need external obstacles as far as their personal relationship is concerned, they always manage to have as many internal ones as possible (as opposed to working/fighting together, which always comes naturally to them). Like I said in your LJ, they're already at completely different wavelengths, with a lot of classic miscommunication, but with a very changed dynamic. They don't need an outside problem (like curses etc.) and never did. Like Marti Noxon said in an interview during S6, that's a what makes a more interesting and real story, people making their own problems, rather than some perfect romance with outside obstacles thrown in.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if it was something Joss just wanted to get off his chest (which, in fairness, is what I asked for aaaaaaaaaall the way back after 8.02, that he address it and that the dream wasn't just a cheap gotcha), but if so, it still speaks slightly worse of Buffy's... hmmm... emotional fidelity/authenticity in a season that already doesn't speak well of it.
    But that was the point. Whether her feelings for Xander were just temporary or not (and I'm sure she took them very seriously at the time), coming onto him after she saw him kissing Dawn was a sign of serious neediness and a moral compass gone a bit off (which he immediately pointed out and she recognized as true). Which was the state of mind that, with the help of the glowhypnol, lead her straight into TwAngel's arms.

    And no matter if she still felt something for Xander or not, Buffy was going to understand that Xander was off limits as soon as she got back to her normal self. He's with her sister, and that's it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    The "Dead Things" position gets nothing? At all?

    *snaps fingers repeatedly* These are the jokes...
    I laughed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    I'm not much interested in revisiting a world where Buffy has the moral highground. That's my resistance -- though I get that it'd be good to test Spike's shiny new morality. We've had Spike being beneath Buffy for ages, he's just pulled even. Why revisit the old story by pushing him down again. (Especially in the wake of her year of moral ambiguity.)
    It doesn't have to be about the moral high-ground, it can about different - but equally valid - ethical stances. This is what I like to see, moral ambiguity - not in the sense of 'oh look, heroes have flaws!' but in the sense of 'hm, both of them are right in a way, so how we decide what the right thing to do is?'

    And Spike is a good guy but he's no boy scout, and no rule-follower. He's also a pragmatist, and interested in protecting real people rather than moral absolutes. If he was in the same situation as in "Dead Things" now, I think the difference would be that he would understand why Buffy couldn't bear the idea of being a murderer and why she wanted to give herself up to the police, but he still wouldn't let her do it - only this time he probably wouldn't immediately go about getting rid of the body, instead he'll be calmer and more rational about it and first try to figure out what really happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enisy View Post
    An obvious source of tension is the "I love you" -- "No you don't" exchange, but I highly doubt that Joss is going to touch that one. I'm more apt to side with Maggie and Moscow on the idea of triangles or pseudo-triangles. For instance, there was never a better time for Spike and Buffy to discuss Angel and Buffy. If they don't do it now, they probably never will.(Buffy/Spike/Faith also sounds likely, but I'm a bit resistant to it; for one thing, Spike/Faith is too obvious and easy in the "Ooo, they both smoke, wear leather and play second fiddle, they're made for each other" sense, and for another, they've avoided it this long, why go there now?)
    Sure it's obvious, but it's not like the show has always avoided the obvious. I thought that Giles being the big death in #39 was too obvious, but it happened. I thought that it was obvious that Faith would be the one to help Angel, and I'm glad to see they followed through.

    I would hardly say they avoided it? Spike and Faith only met twice, and they flirted both times (or rather, she flirted with him when she was in Buffy's body, and then they argued, got friendly and flirted in "Dirty Girls"). And the second time was near the end of season 7. They had chemistry just as you'd expect, and there was enough setup for something to happen, whether a fling or just a friendship with some flirtation. From what I've heard, a Faith spinoff series was planned before Eliza Dushku decided to do Tru Calling instead, and Spike was going to appear on it. They didn't really meet (except in group scenes) in season 8 at all - and Spike was just in the last few issues, anyway.

    I can see Spike having an affair, if not with Faith then with some other non-Slayer, or Buffy thinking that he is. (Let me make it clear that I don't expect an actual romance between Spike and Faith, if it's Faith - because she doesn't do romance.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Enisy View Post
    Season 8 leaves the Spike/Buffy/Angel triangle in a really odd place. One of the predominant "endgame" theories in my mind had one of the vampires shanshuing, but Buffy ending up with the other, non-human one, 'cause... that's just what Joss does. However, as things stand now, I can't tell which is less likely: Angel getting the Shanshu, or getting Buffy.
    Oh, I think Angel getting Buffy is far, far less likely. OTOH, he's always finding himself on one or the other side of an apocalypse, so maybe Shanshu is inevitable one day. (And it's an obsession of his even stronger than Buffy. He forgot about Buffy when he was obsessing over Darla and then Cordelia. I bet that Shanshu is always in his heart.)

    But then maybe he'll get it and die soon after...

    In any case, Angel could only Shanshu if they decide to finally end his story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Remmy View Post
    Going by issue 40, there will be slayer enemies in season 9. And just now in the Scott Q&A he makes a reference to Nikki always being rememberd as being killed by the slayer's boyfriend Spike. This suggest to me that they might have already brainstormed on that a bit for season 9. Spike's role in s9 might have something to do with that, his connections to slayers and being closest to THE slayer. If there are truelly powerful slayers(not the puppy weaklings from 40) out there that want to kill Buffy, I could see her getting her ass kicked or about to get killed and a ruthless Spike steps in to help. The one he said in season 7 that Buffy had never met. Or just seeing him right as he kills the slayer. That would provide much tension in their relationship. Seeing is much more profound then just hearing. I always thought that if Buffy had seen what Angel did to Dru instead of him just telling her, she might have been just as disgusted as faux-Cordelia was.
    I'd certainly love to see more interaction between Spike and the non-Slayers. I don't think they've milked Spike's history with the Slayers enough, so that comment about Nikki is interesting. Do non-Slayers still have past Slayer memories?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    Finally we could just have Spike end up getting kidnapped or something with Buffy having to rescue him. It'd follow up the my hero jazz. But I doubt they laid down the "rescue the prince" line ages ago to have something to do with Spike.
    Well, she did rescue him in #39 - or are people expecting something bigger and more dramatic for that "prince" line?
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

  12. #52
    Dedicated Spike Fan Maggie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    Well, she did rescue him in #39 - or are people expecting something bigger and more dramatic for that "prince" line?
    The Q&A strongly suggests that the line is still in play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    The Q&A strongly suggests that the line is still in play.
    No, it just suggests that it was a plot hole that they didn't cover.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enisy View Post
    (Oh, and I had a good chuckle at your "position" joke, King. Don't feel bad! *patpats* You've come a long way if you can make jokes about that scene. I'm proud of you. )
    Meh, don't get too excited

    Quote Originally Posted by Remmy View Post
    Same goes for the idea of Spike being jealous of Buffy crushing on Xander. Seems more like some weak attempt to make Xander the manly man that has both Summers girls in heat for him, no thanks.
    I don't think that perception became a problem the 5 or 6 other times in "Buffy" and "Angel" that they did the two-like-one scenario, but, hey -- it's Xander, so it's different

    I don't think the enemy in season 9 will be a normal human, atleast i hope not. And i also don't think that Buffy has the same no-killing code as Batman. Buffy has been willing to kill and torture in the past depending in what situation she's in. Same goes for Spike, he would follow her wishes. What he might do was like Giles in the Gift. Spike already consider himself damned, so killing an unrepenting killer won't bother him that much.
    Buffy has never directly caused the death of a human being in any situation in which she would not have been equally privileged to do so were she not the Slayer at all, though. I don't think she would take a human life on her "authority" as the Slayer, it's just not in her nature.

    I'd love for human nemeses to emerge for Buffy and her friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    The Q&A strongly suggests that the line is still in play.
    I can't be the only one that hopes this line just gets left in the breeze? I think there's something more poignant about Robin if -- as must be true of her unfortunate namesake -- something she said had truly just not had a deeper meaning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remmy
    Same goes for the idea of Spike being jealous of Buffy crushing on Xander. Seems more like some weak attempt to make Xander the manly man that has both Summers girls in heat for him, no thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    I don't think that perception became a problem the 5 or 6 other times in "Buffy" and "Angel" that they did the two-like-one scenario, but, hey -- it's Xander, so it's different
    Wasn't he the manly man both Cordelia and Willow were into? So, yay, he's had his two-like-one scenario already!

    ...Actually, that storyline made Xander look like an immature a**hole.

    And for the record, I think any attempt to further stretch the B/X/D 'triangle' would be really lame and unbelievable. Buffy is not going to be lusting after her sister's boyfriend, and he's not going to be conflicted between two sisters.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    Wasn't he the manly man both Cordelia and Willow were into? So, yay, he's had his two-like-one scenario already!
    Hey, if you want to expand it to include that -- scenarios where there *isn't* any real acknowledgment of competing interest -- the list gets even longer. Sufficed to say, Buffy struggling with discomfort in her personal life over the idea that someone she is/was interested with rejected her and is with her sister, that she's living at their apartment*, and that the person with whom she'd be most likely to vent any of that weirdness to is already an ex who doesn't even like the dude in question... that wouldn't be a storyline that I think is too likely to Gary Stu anyone off the charts. And, I love things that sound just as completely awkward to talk about for characters -- especially when one of them is Spike -- it's like when he's sitting with Joyce in "Becoming, Part II".

    *Note how in this description absolutely no part of Buffy's emotional process is about still pining for him, let alone wishing for some way to steal him from her sister. I just... y'know, it makes perfect sense to people that when Willow learns that Xander slept with Faith, she has to go cry in the bathroom. But if Buffy even feels awkward about the fact that she lost out on a guy to Dawn, a guy that she is still good friends with, it's dragging something out unrealistically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    Hey, if you want to expand it to include that -- scenarios where there *isn't* any real acknowledgment of competing interest -- the list gets even longer.
    Wasn't Cordelia catching Xander and Willow together an example of 'acknowledgment of competing interest'?

    Sufficed to say, Buffy struggling with discomfort in her personal life over the idea that someone she is/was interested with rejected her and is with her sister, that she's living at their apartment*, and that the person with whom she'd be most likely to vent any of that weirdness to is already an ex who doesn't even like the dude in question... that wouldn't be a storyline that I think is too likely to Gary Stu anyone off the charts. And, I love things that sound just as completely awkward to talk about for characters -- especially when one of them is Spike -- it's like when he's sitting with Joyce in "Becoming, Part II".
    The only way I can see Buffy talking to Spike about her attraction to Xander would be if she wanted to rile him up and try to make him jealous. I think she's already upset that he's calm and doesn't seem angry about her spacesex with Angel anymore.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    Wasn't Cordelia catching Xander and Willow together an example of 'acknowledgment of competing interest'?
    I wasn't really thinking of the Season 3 arc so much as the Season 2, and that was Willow catching them. I was thinking more of things like... Cordy trying to compete with Buffy for Angel -- if ever there was a Gary Stu-ing of someone. Angel and Xander in early Season 2 about Buffy, things like that.

    The only way I can see Buffy talking to Spike about her attraction to Xander would be if she wanted to rile him up and try to make him jealous. I think she's already upset that he's calm and doesn't seem angry about her spacesex with Angel anymore.
    Buffy's only been known for gratuitously accusing others of jealousy or fixating on attraction to her as a motivation for others' behavior on days that end in "-day".

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    I agree that Buffy and Spike don't need external obstacles to their relationship, their mutural "weirdness" could be responsible for both comedy gold and romantic angst.

    That's one of the great things about Spuffy: it can be both funny and dramatic at the same time.

    And Joss is the best writer of S/B interaction imo. I don't know if Joss has ever confirmed it but it's always been rumored that Joss basically rewrote FFL and when y OMWF and Chosen in the mix I can't help but get the feeling that concocting an interesting Spuffy storyline will be a breeze for Joss.

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    Going by #40, Spike and Buffy seem to have a healthier, easier rapport than ever. Going by any Whedonverse product in existence, Joss can't write healthy, easy relationships for extended periods of time. What untapped sources of tension do you think he still has at his disposal, where Spike/Buffy is concerned?
    My feeling is that where tension is concerned, for Spike and Buffy it'll be something that simmers in the background of season 9. I don't know about untapped, but I can very much see Joss taking advantage of the door he's left open in #40 to explore Buffy's sense of isolation, her romantic disappointments, personal growth, guilt and unresolved feelings for Spike using Spike as a romantic foil.

    Spike and Buffy would first have to reach a really open, honest, loving and happy space with each other for me to consider it completely healthy. At the moment they're still hiding too much from each other - at least Buffy is - and that in itself is an interest point of conflict.

    Beyond that it's hard to say without more context. But there's a hundred ways I'm sure to take something healthy and turn it into tragedy.

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