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Thread: Spuffy in the Comics

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    It seems like you expect that, if there is any Spuffy in the future, it has to be about Buffy and Spike getting together pretty soon. Why would you assume that? I never expected them to be back together or even be admitting their feelings for each other in any foreseeable future.
    I'd say it's even money right now that they are (pace Willow) "the two who are the two", long term. They will be the Logan/Veronica of the Buffyverse for as long as we're still getting stories about it, I'm just hoping we get an interlude that covers more diverse ground before they settle back into that narrative.

    I realize, looking at it, that I'm basically outlining a "Buffy" version of late Season 1 and all of Season 2 of "Veronica Mars", with minor twists, but, dammit, that's okay. The reality is "Veronica Mars" was categorically superior to "Buffy" when depicting the real ebb and flow of love and romance. Joss loved that show, so there's no time like now to borrow as liberally from it as he's borrowed from other things.

    I think she's going to be single for quite a while now. And the last two are actually exactly the things that we have already seen, in season 8. What else can we get from that story? Unless Buffy decides to try to steal her sister's boyfriend, which would be incredibly selfish and wrong and would ruin her character more than anything else she's ever done (IMO).
    If we've "seen" those last two things, then we also would have "seen" Spuffy if all that we ever got were the "Once More, With Feeling" and "Tabula Rasa" kisses.

    And, no, neither of these things require Buffy to attempt to steal Xander. I drew parallel to her dealing with rejection to Xander himself in Season 2. Did they deal with it? Yes. Did he try to steal Buffy? No. QED.

    For Buffy's part, we've never seen her actually have to be around and cope with someone she wants but can't have. We know what that looks like with Willow, we know what it looks like with Xander, we certainly know what it looks like with Spike. Buffy? No. She always gets into the relationship she wants to get into, even if it doesn't work out. We've never seen her want and not get. I'm interested in seeing her have to deal with that as, y'know, the rest of us do who don't go from one mythic whirlwind romance to the next.

    And, of course, if Dawn ever did learn of her feelings for Xander, whether at a point where Buffy considers herself over those feelings or not, it would be an interesting arc between sisters, already foreshadowed in "Turbulence" anyway.

    It's worth spending a couple arcs of Season 9 as a plotline to explore rather than defaulting quickly to a status quo in Buffy's love life is to have weird mixed signals with Spike.

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  2. #22
    Slayer Reddygirl's Avatar
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    If Joss had personally called me up and asked me, as a Spuffy, wanted I wanted to see in 40, I would have told him pretty much how he actually wrote it.

    I never expected any overt Spuffiness and frankly it wouldn't have resonated at this time because it might have appeared as if Buffy was just desperate to not feel lonely. She's still attracted to him. He still has feelings. That's enough for now. I hope the first part of 9 just has them fighting together and exchanging witty repartee, with lots of UST of course.

    I mentioned the Han/Leia vibe on another thread. Buffy and Spike are never going to constantly look each other soulfully in the eyes; Nick and Nora Charles also spring to mind when trying to describe the type of romantic pairing that Buffy and Spike are.

    The most important thing is for them to get on an equal footing, emotionally speaking.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddygirl View Post
    I never expected any overt Spuffiness and frankly it wouldn't have resonated at this time because it might have appeared as if Buffy was just desperate to not feel lonely.
    That's actually a really great point. A lot of people seem stuck on the fact she didn't invite him in, or to be more accurate, that she didn't have Xander or Dawn invite him in. However, it's much more healthy that Buffy keeps some kind of clear boundaries between them so she doesn’t end up falling back into bad habits (and by that I mean using romantic connections as a bandaid for a bullet wound). I like that she’s got her private space which he can’t enter but that she’s willing to come outside to speak to him and does so regularly, as it’s implied by the text. That’s healthy and it’s not malicious or selfish of her at all, nor does he seem to take it to heart, either.

    It’s also really positive for them. As you say, it’d be very easy to trivialise their relationship if they were to rush back into things so soon (assuming she wants to) because people could see it as Buffy just clinging to him or “using him” as she’s so often accused of. Whereas, she’s actually wanting to heal and grow on her own for a while and that’s great. Buffy just wouldn’t be ready for a romantic relationship after S8.
    - "The earth is doomed" -


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    Well It just shows you what kind of Rorschach inkblot test that panel was because for me I didn't get anything like the kind of vibes some on here are getting.

    For me at least I didn't see any kind of emotional connection between them. Maybe as friends, but considering whats proceeded this in other issues it just helped confirm for me that whatever they had has long since been extinguished.

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    Slayer Reddygirl's Avatar
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    Sue, of course you could be right but I prefer my interpretation!

    Thanks, Vamps.

    Buffy's need to get away from Spike when she starts to cry seems to me to suggest that she was afraid he might start to physically comfort her and, as Vamps said, old habits that weren't so healthy reemerge.

  6. #26
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    Joss knocks another one out of the ballpark. I love how even with so little he alludes to so much. Small gestures,few words and it's absolutely beautiful.
    Spike's role in season 8 was very very small and he only appeared right there at the end. Out of all the ships, spuffy by far comes out on top. In regards to bangel, Joss just took a sledgehammer and smashed it all up this season. And while spuffy is moving at a snailspace, it is still moving forward. I've heard a lot of fans saying, yeah this is what Joss always does, he'll always maintains the triangle letting neither pull forward. Love is doomed in the whedonverse, as soon as someone is happy they'll be dead soon,ect.
    I used to believe some of that too, but now i don't anymore.
    I think most of all, Joss wants the love to be earned,tested. He doesn't go for the true love at first sight or true love that makes everything easy and enables you to breeze through life with your partner without facing any hardships. Joss does not do this, if you have true love, he'll take it, examine,smash,taint,kick,slap,throw it. And if after all of that, it's still love then that love is the truest of love.

    The other more important aspect i think Joss values is foundations. To truelly know your partner, their worst and best sides. It is a fact that the spuffy relationship has been through the most changes/evolutions. As Joss said in the Chosen commentary, spuffy have been almost everything to eachother. Enemies,lovers,friends,fellow warriors,confidants,saviors,ect. Spuffy is different then the other relationships in that while the others started with good emotions,love, just all around positive aspects. Spuffy started in complete uglyness, they both hated eachother while not even knowing eachother, despised what the other one stood for. Even their physical relationship started in uglyness(but still hot). While other relationships struggle to overcome their ugly side, most don't even survive it. Buffy/Riley faltered failed because of it and now bangel too.

    And what we are seeing now is years of building and development. Spike unlike in season 7 where plenty of fans wanted them to hook up is truelly Buffy's equal. In season 7 Spike was not ready, he was on his own hero's journey and just like how Buffy concluded from her session with Holden and told Angel in Chosen, she had to find herself(or in her dirtyanalogy, she has to become a well baked cooky before she can get eaten.) And that's again proof via Joss. You can say that you're gonna love someone forever, that you'll stick by them in their darkest hour, that no matter what you will love them. Words are cheap and easy, in Joss's world you will be tested and so far only Spike has been passing with flying colors.
    That's been a very vocal complaint this season, that Spike only comes in as exposition dude. That might be what it looks like on the surface but beneath it, it will show Buffy that she cannot add Spike in that list of boyfriends that abandond her. Angel left her, Riley left her, Spike died but eventually came back. Buffy wasn't the only one that needed to become a cooky(finding one's self).

    As for this final issue, after 6 months Buffy finally reclaims her title,birthright.
    Thanks to three people that were unknowingly helping her get back on the horse so to speak. She is not just Buffy the slayer or Buffy the girl, she is both of these and they cannot be seperated. Spike helps push her back in to slaying by appearing on the grounds of having some vital info for Buffy. He doesn't, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Buffy is public enemy nr1 for many people. Love how Buffy calls him on that. Also her funny sarcastic response to him calling her a useless bint, why did we ever break up?. Second person is Dawn who does that silly little prank to get Buffy off the couch and into patrolling. Third and last is Giles by only giving her the slayer book. The message is clear all around, you screwed up but that doesn't change who and what you are which is The slayer.

    I very much like the callback to Lies my parents told me. Just like how Wood wasn't there to get a sorry from Spike. These slayers weren't there to ask Buffy why did she do this and to get an apology from her. These 3 slayers were only there to hurt Buffy. It doesn't matter that they know very little of what happend, they think they know and think that that gives them the right to hurt who they believed wronged them. I'm really happy that Buffy took a page out of Spike's book and defended herself and ending it with a threat. I hate willing-martyrs.

    Her last line, "Lets go to work." reminds me more of the final pages in the Fray comicbook. She also speaks of knowing that there are enemies out there that are gunning for her.

    I don't think that the non-invite is such a big deal that fans are making it out to be. I don't believe for a second that Xander or Dawn wouldn't invite Spike. Nor do i think that they blame Spike for any of Angel's mistakes. Angel f"cked up, his mistakes are his alone, not Spike's.
    I think this is just the case of Buffy using the invite thing as an excuse. Would you really invite a person that you are attracted to, to see how much you don't have. Yes Spike has seen her at her worst but he wouldn't classify this as one of the worst, not by a longshot but it is in Buffy's mind. We are all a little shallow at times when it concerns potential lovepartners. You want to show the best of yourself, not the bad breath in the morning or bed-hair,ect. Even i was a little shocked that Buffy had been crashing on their couch for 6 months. Buffy season 9: attack of the couch potato!
    So yeah, i don't think it means anything. Same with the speech, Buffy doesn't want to feel better even if what Spike's saying is correct. But again as persistant as Spike is he kept coming back and together with the others got her out of her shell again. It might have taken 6 months but Buffy is back because of the help from her loved ones.

    As i said before, i do think bangel is destroyed. I think that eventually they will be able to become what Spike said they would never be which is friends. Because even if Buffy could ever get over what Angel did to her, the image of Angel killing her father would never leave her mind. Same goes for Angel, say Buffy loses all her braincells and wants another go with Angel, i think even Angel now knows that nothing good comes from their love. He gets screwed over literally and figuratively everytime when it comes to bangel. Just look at how f&cked up he is this time, 6 months post 39.

    For season 9, it will be a slow and long process but i think spuffy will be the endgame. No other pairing even comes close to what they had and continue to have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enisy View Post
    I hope everyone's reading Issue #40! The latest Spike/Buffy scene is made of win, daffodils and Christmas.
    That's a lot of win.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francy View Post
    Even if Buffy feels that way, or Joss is hinting it, Spike certainly doesn't think of Buffy as beneath him (unlike Buffy, who certainly meant it when she told him he was beneath her). She's still his hero, afterall, and her screw-ups don't seem to have tarnished his vision of her in the least. I just hope Spike no longer feels he's beneath her, because he sure isn't! He certainly has come a long way since Fool For Love...
    Spike certainly doesn't think that way about Buffy, he still admires her (but not in an idol-worshiping, put you on the pedestal way) but he doesn't think he's beneath her, either, not anymore. He isn't bothered by (what he thinks of as) Buffy not loving him, or by any of Buffy's reactions now, because he's past the time when he used Buffy as the measure of his own self-worth. Which was exactly what he was doing in seasons 5-7, when he was going through a huge identity crisis (should he go back to being evil, if he could, or should he try to be good? Can he be either monster or a man?). In season 7, he wasn't as bothered by the question of whether she loved him because the knowledge that she believed in him was enough to help him in his own identity quest. Now that he's sorted out these issues and is quite well-adjusted, what feelings Buffy might or might not have for him does not affect his confidence and sense of self. He thinks that she doesn't love him, but not because there's something wrong with him or because he isn't worthy/deserving of love - he thinks she just doesn't. (Which IMO he's completely wrong about - I think she loved him a lot more than she was willing to admit, and certainly had stronger feelings for him that she was admitting, even when he was 'unworthy'. But I'm just talking about his perspective here.) And after all, he thinks she loves Angel, a guy he doesn't see more 'worthy' than himself. So, I don't think Spike has an inferiority complex anymore like he used to. He doesn't really expect anything in particular from Buffy, he is just offering his help because he cares about her.

    But Buffy, I think, does feel like she's beneath him now, and Spike just being nice and friendly and not wanting anything from her makes it all the worse. Back in S7, in CWDP, she admitted that she often felt like she was beneath everyone, for having all that power that she felt she didn't deserve. She revealed that she had an inferiority complex about her supposed "superiority complex"... which was really the wrong term - one might say she had it about her sense of superiority, but superiority complex is by definition an unrealistic sense of superiority, a belief that one is more important than they really are, a lack of concern about other people's opinions; which is certainly not Buffy's case - her sense of superiority comes from her actual circumstances, she was chosen to be given power and responsibility and she's being put on a pedestal so often, and she does care a lot about other people's opinions, sometimes way too much.

    Buffy did think he Spike was "beneath her" when she said it. But I don't think she's felt that he was beneath her for a long time, at least since S6. In S6, since she started having sex with him, it was because she thought she was as bad as he was. In S7, she saw good in him and believed he could be a good man. She certainly doesn't think of him as inferior since "Chosen", the admiring look on her face in their last scene showed that clearly. And in season 8, the scales seems to have tipped into the other direction, in her mind (as hinted in "Always Darkest"). The problem now are Buffy's own self-issues she needs to work through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    I don't remember making that point, but if I did, go me. Wherever it came from, wow. I do think that's part of what triggers the tears.
    It was in the Preview Pages for #40 thread, I've had to look for that post - you were analyzing the panel that was posted in the previews:

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    (...)
    I kind of wish Spike would be more than a cheerleader to Buffy, because that still has him doing the hero-worship thing. If that goes on, I may have to give more credit than I do to Hayes' point about him putting her on a pedastal. Anyway, he's reprising his role in Touched. Except there's no touching.

    I like Spike saying he never got what that thing was. Layers, here, I think. It's not a scythe -- so that's a shout out to that problem. But more importantly, if they're talking about disunity in the ranks, it suddenly seems like one of the main things the scythe did along with the spell is create harmony. Now we're more back to season 7 pre-spell in terms of people grumbling about Buffy's leadership.
    http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/sh...&postcount=188

    It hadn't occurred to me at first, but I thought your interpretation was brilliant. Buffy saying "I broke the scythe" is made a big deal of because the scythe symbolizes a lot more than it is. It's not just a weapon and a means to create new Slayers, the history of how Buffy found it and what she did with it goes back to the end of season 7, when Buffy, after being deeply demoralized, disconnected and ostracized, found strength and self-belief again, found the scythe, and was then able to re-connect with everyone, to create harmony in the ranks, to share power with the Potentials and create many new Slayers, and to defeat the First. She was triumphant - and then season 8 was one big story of failure, of the destruction of everything she had achieved.

    And if I understood you correctly, you hinted that the important part of the history and symbolism associated with the scythe is the night that Buffy spent with Spike in "Touched", which gave her back her confidence and strength.

    SPIKE
    Honey, you're home.
    BUFFY
    Yeah.
    SPIKE
    (sighs) And you did it. Fulfilled your mission. Found the Holy Grail. Or the Holy Hand Grenade, or whatever the hell that is.
    BUFFY
    Right now we're going with scythe. You like?
    SPIKE
    Well, pointy and wooden is not exactly the look I wanna know better, but it does have flair. Can see why a girl would ditch a fella for one of these.
    BUFFY
    I'm sorry about that. (walks away)
    As Buffy walks toward the kitchen, Spike follows her.
    SPIKE
    It doesn't matter. You're back in the bosom. All's forgiven. And, uh, (stands in front of Buffy, looking at her) last night...was just a glitch. A bit of cold comfort from the cellar dweller. Let's don't make a thing out of it. (breathes nervously)
    BUFFY
    Great. I have work to do.
    SPIKE
    Oh, yeah. Another solo mission, of course.
    BUFFY
    Yeah, it is.
    SPIKE
    That's fine. You don't have to get shirty about it.
    BUFFY
    I'm not shirty. And what is shirty? That's not even a word.
    SPIKE
    All right. All right. Big secret mission. It's fine.
    BUFFY
    It's not a secret. Well, I mean, it is, but that's the point of the mission. Find out the secret. This thing was forged by— I don't even know. I mean, something about... a tomb on unconsecrated ground. That's what I have to do. I need to find out what this is and why I have it.
    SPIKE
    And that's the thing the preacher man was so anxious to keep out of your mitts?
    BUFFY
    That it is.
    SPIKE
    Well, maybe I'll swing by the vineyard when you go, make sure he's sitting tight.
    BUFFY
    Great.
    SPIKE
    OK. (turns to leave)
    BUFFY
    (walks after him) You're a dope.
    SPIKE
    I'm a what?
    BUFFY
    You're a dope. And a bonehead. And you're shirty.
    SPIKE
    Have you gone completely carrot-top?
    BUFFY
    Do you see this? (holds up the scythe) This may actually help me fight my war. This might be the key to everything. And the reason I'm holding it is because of you. Because of the strength that you gave me last night. Look, I am tired of defensiveness and weird, mixed signals. You know, I have Faith for that. Let's just get to the truth here, OK? I don't know how you felt about last night, but I will not—
    SPIKE
    (breathes in, looks away)
    Terrified.
    BUFFY
    Of what?
    SPIKE
    (lets out a slow sigh) Last night was... (looks up) God, I'm such a jerk. I can't do this.
    BUFFY
    Spike...
    SPIKE
    It was the best night of my life. If you poke fun at me, you bloody well better use that, 'cause I couldn't bear it. It may not mean that much to you, but—
    BUFFY
    I just told you it did.
    SPIKE
    (sighs) Yeah...I hear you say it, but... I've lived for soddin' ever, Buffy. I've done everything. Done things with you I can't spell, but... I've never... been close... to anyone. Least of all, you. 'Til last night. All I did was... (smiles) hold you, watch you sleep. And it was the best night of my life. So, yeah... I'm... terrified.
    BUFFY
    You don't have to be.
    SPIKE
    (looks at her) Were you there with me?
    BUFFY
    (looks straight at him) I was.
    SPIKE
    What does that mean?
    BUFFY
    I don't know. Does it have to mean something?
    SPIKE
    No. (looks away) Not right now.
    BUFFY
    Maybe when...
    SPIKE
    No. (throws up his hand) Let's just leave it.
    BUFFY
    OK.
    SPIKE
    (sighs) We'll go be heroes. (walks out the door)
    Spike: -- but I know the truth. (looks away, with a wistful expression) You were faced with decisions no one has to make. Attacked -- controlled -- by forces no one comprehends. And you pulled your people through. (Buffy has her mouth open; she seems moved and surprised) So, honestly? **** anybody who thinks they could've done better. The world was on fire. The world is always on ****ing fire and you're always right in the thick of it and the only difference this time is that people actually noticed. So they judge. And they carp, and debate -- but put the Scythe in their hands and they'd shake like trifle on a train.
    Buffy: (looks down) I broke the Scythe.
    Spike: Yeah, I didn't really get what that thing was. The point is --
    Buffy: (covers her face with one hand; she's crying) Got it.
    Spike: (frowns) What's wrong with you?
    Buffy: (jumping back inside the window) Nothing! Good talk! Come again!
    Spike: (off-camera) You're weird.
    Buffy: (trips over the window ledge; only her foot is visible) Ack! Ow!
    Spike: I live on a dirigible run by insects and you're still particularly weird.
    Buffy: Got it! You're still not invited in! Bye now!
    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    She doesn't have to presume that he's always in love with her to pick up the phone and call him. She chose to not call him. That's all there is to her side fo the story. Spike delayed in contacting her, but then tried and thought he was told to get a life. [We are destined to eternally disagree on this!!!]
    Maybe I wasn't good in explaining how I see it. It's not about who's in love with whom. It was on him to inform her of his resurrection (regardless of how he feels about her, what he thinks she may or may not feel about him, etc.). When he didn't for such a long time, and she finds out from someone else, it's very easy to read this as a signal that - regardless of whether he still has feelings for her - he doesn't want to see her, and thinks that he's much happier away from her. And the worst thing is that she could easily believe that he's right - she generally has a tendency to blame herself for a lot of things; and we know that there's a long list of things she could blame herself for in her relationship with Spike. In "Always Darkest", in her dream he is blaming her for leaving him to die in the Hellmouth and rejecting her - a dream, of course, always says something about the dreamer, not the dreamed, and while Spike certainly wouldn't blame her (and it was his choice), she seems to have blamed herself. What I was trying to say is, I don't think she should have presumed "Spike certainly still loves me and wants to be with me, he's just insecure about my feelings for him, that's all", and I don't see the situation as being all about Buffy's choice whether to call him or not (even though she acted like it was: "Sorry I didn't call, I was too busy" - but is that in any way surprising, Buffy always pretending like she's the one with the power to make all the decisions on every matter), or that she was a sulking brat if she was, perhaps, hurt by his non-calling. Why would she think that she has the right to call him if he - presumably - doesn't want to be contacted, if he's better off without her, or that she has a right to ask anything from him that he's not willing to offer on his own?
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

  8. #28
    Slayer TimeTravellingBunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    I'm more apt to believe a Buffy/Spike relationship now than at any point since before the circumstances of their first hook-up kinda ruined it for me. But here's what's up -- I've seen Buffy with Spike, and I've seen Buffy all messed up about Spike.

    Three things I've never seen meaningfully explored? 1) Buffy dealing with herself as a single woman, 2) Buffy dealing with romantic rejection of the unrequited variety, and 3) Buffy dealing with being one-upped by her sister, now that she's an equal. If you just go head long back into will-they-or-won't-they Spuffy, you necessarily abandon all three of those novel and interesting stories for Buffy. I'd rather defer that a season and see new stuff. Like, even knowing that it probably would come to nothing but some brief and uncomfortable tension and that Xander and Dawn are definitely going to be together, I'd like to see Buffy have to struggle the way Xander had to in Season 2, I want her to get what "oh, my life's not complicated" is about, and I want Dawn to figure out the subtext of everything, and for drama to unfold before everyone's comfortable again. Spike would actually be a perfect place for Buffy to vent all this, and his reactions and amazement that "Xander? Really?"
    You want Buffy to be confiding in Spike about her feelings for another man? Seriously?

    Not to mention that Buffy is someone who usually only wallows in self-pity in private and doesn't like to talk to people about her problems, especially not of the 'does X love me?/doesn't love me' variety.

    Even if I believed that Buffy's romantic feelings for Xander were that strong to make her pine for another year or two (which I don't believe), the sheer impossibility of anything coming from it (due to Xander/Dawn) limits any storytelling possibilities that might come from it. Stories of unrequited love are only really interesting in long-term when there is a good possibility that that love can be eventually requited, which is what keeps both the interest of the viewers' and the love itself alive. (And most of my favorite 'unrequited love' stories on TV eventually had the love become requited.) If there is no possibility, and the person in love just keeps moping about for a long time despite not believing anything can ever come out of it, then it just becomes tedious and pathetic. As Marvin Gaye's song said, "One-way love is just a fantasy". If you don't have any hope of having a relationship with the person you're in love with, then all you can do is suck it up and move on, and that's what people normally do. Unless they just enjoy the idea of being in unrequited love, in which case we're in fantasy land. It's like "courtly love" with troubadours writing poems to ladies who were never meant to be anything but distant objects of Love, because the so-called 'romantic love' was the point in itself, not the object of love who never mattered as a person and whose feelings never actually mattered. It's like having a crush on a celebrity - it's safe, it's not real, because nothing will ever come out of it. I don't think that anyone can really stay in love for a long time without having any hope of anything coming out of it. Even the stalkers and erotomaniacs are people who have delusions that the object of their love does have feelings for them, which is what makes them so obsessive.

    You bring up Xander in S2 - well, he sure didn't stay single for long, did he? First he had a doomed romance of the week with Ampata, then he started dating Cordelia halfway through S2, and then his love life became all about Cordy and then Cordy and Willow in S3, not to mention his one-night stand with Faith that he mistook for something more serious. And all that while Buffy was in a semi-relationship with a guy Xander hated and didn't trust - rather than in a regular relationship with a good friend of Xander's, let alone a brother he was very close to. Xander's romantic feelings for Buffy and jealousy were waning during season 2, he hated Angel but he had other reasons for it and the jealousy involved wasn't about getting Buffy, it was more of the "And you preferred him to me?" kind (and the only time he would ever react in a similar way again was about Spike, again someone he didn't think suitable for Buffy, which was more about Buffy falling off the pedestal Xander had put her on, and again a certain resentment of the "you want him, but you didn't want me?" kind. He never had a problem with Riley, or Scott Hope in S3.)

    What exactly do you expect to see from Buffy re: Xander? Apart from a wistful look here or there, or Dawn finding out and both sisters feeling uncomfortable for a while, I can't see what more you could do with B/X as '(reversed) unrequited love', since Buffy can only suck it up and move on and not try to ruin things for Dawn.

    And as for Buffy being single, do she and Spike look to you like they're about to get together any time soon? I'm pretty sure she's going to be single for quite a while, probably longer than Xander's ever been. In fact, I think she may already been single for longer than either Xander or Willow, we'd have to calculate that, but she was certainly single for most of S8, apart from a very short fling with Satsu and the glow-space sex with Angel.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    You want Buffy to be confiding in Spike about her feelings for another man? Seriously?
    Why yes, I would like their presently platonic relationship to take on the extra layer of depth that comes with understanding and supporting each other on more mundane levels than just their respective supernatural burdens. Plus, Spike's bemusement at the idea of Buffy having any kind of feelings for Xander has been well covered by some of this very site's fic writers, including at least one Spuffy fan.

    Not to mention that Buffy is someone who usually only wallows in self-pity in private and doesn't like to talk to people about her problems, especially not of the 'does X love me?/doesn't love me' variety.
    See, I know you're more imaginative than this. Why would Buffy even process the situation in a "does he/doesn't he love me" way? The example I've now cited seven... eight times was how Xander had to muddle through Season 2, most of the time not really thinking he had any interest in Buffy anymore but occasionally (i.e. "Phases" and the afore-mentioned hug + "oh, my life's not complicated"). But could anybody pass a Buffy literacy test describing Xander as spending Season 2 wondering "does B love me?/doesn't love me"? Clearly not.

    The other dynamic I set most often is Logan/Veronica when not dating, and trying to muster vague supportiveness/enthusiasm for each other's dating interests, and/or occasionally snarking about them. Buffy venting about it being uncomfortable to be around him and Dawn (for both relationships' sake) and Spike playing between the "Xander? Really?" of it (a man he once told another romantic interest was a stupid git, yes?) and trying to be sympathetic and supportive.

    You bring up Xander in S2 - well, he sure didn't stay single for long, did he? First he had a doomed romance of the week with Ampata, then he started dating Cordelia halfway through S2, and then his love life became all about Cordy and then Cordy and Willow in S3, not to mention his one-night stand with Faith that he mistook for something more serious. And all that while Buffy was in a semi-relationship with a guy Xander hated and didn't trust - rather than in a regular relationship with a good friend of Xander's, let alone a brother he was very close to. Xander's romantic feelings for Buffy and jealousy were waning during season 2, he hated Angel but he had other reasons for it and the jealousy involved wasn't about getting Buffy, it was more of the "And you preferred him to me?" kind (and the only time he would ever react in a similar way again was about Spike, again someone he didn't think suitable for Buffy, which was more about Buffy falling off the pedestal Xander had put her on, and again a certain resentment of the "you want him, but you didn't want me?" kind. He never had a problem with Riley, or Scott Hope in S3.)
    You're right, he didn't stay single -- and Buffy should probably head out on a few dates with some of those cute guys in her coffee bar and burden Spike with those as well. I mean, is it that unpalatable to keep them apart and actually set the roots of genuine, non-romantic, non-sexual friendship in their relationship for the first time before thrusting them figuratively and literally back together? Well, in real life, those people are often people that are around with you through some of your other dating choices and unrequited feelings.

    What exactly do you expect to see from Buffy re: Xander? Apart from a wistful look here or there, or Dawn finding out and both sisters feeling uncomfortable for a while, I can't see what more you could do with B/X as '(reversed) unrequited love', since Buffy can only suck it up and move on and not try to ruin things for Dawn.
    For at least the ninth time, "Phases" is a great template for the emotional layers to something like this. A great continuity writer might even give Buffy an exactly parallel moment and the actual line "no, my life's not complicated". And for the drama ramp up of Dawn finding out is at least as entertaining to me as, for instance, Buffy's reaction to Angel and Faith and the completely non-romantic relationship there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    Why yes, I would like their presently platonic relationship to take on the extra layer of depth that comes with understanding and supporting each other on more mundane levels than just their respective supernatural burdens.
    I think the one thing obvious from the fire escape scene is that Buffy is not comfortable with having a 'platonic friendly' relationship with Spike. Even if people seem to have all sorts of explanations why - from those who think that she doesn't care about him at all, to those who think that she is scared of any possible romantic involvement, to those who think that it's because she wants him to show some feelings for her that aren't platonic and just friendly. Whatever way you spin it, there is nothing there to suggest that Buffy is perfectly OK with having a nice friendly conversation with him where they could confide in each other. She keeps provoking him (Blondie Bear, why did we break up), she's making a big deal of the non-invitation, repeating "You're still not invited!' at the end for no reason at all, and of course she doesn't want him to see her crying and runs away quickly inside.

    You're right, he didn't stay single -- and Buffy should probably head out on a few dates with some of those cute guys in her coffee bar and burden Spike with those as well.
    Well, the guys in her coffee bar are mostly gay, apparently. And maybe that's exactly why Buffy can enjoy herself looking at them. They're safe. Even if some of them aren't gay, maybe Buffy prefers to think that way, because she is not ready to date anyone now.

    She can't even look at Angel now (understandably). And she's freaked out about Spike seeing her vulnerable. That's what relationships lead to. By contrast, she can look at the cute gay guys, because it's not real, it's like fantasizing about actors you're never going to meet.

    I mean, is it that unpalatable to keep them apart and actually set the roots of genuine, non-romantic, non-sexual friendship in their relationship for the first time before thrusting them figuratively and literally back together?
    Maybe, but that's not what is happening in #40, not on Buffy's side.
    You keep waiting for the dust to settle and then you realize it; the dust is your life going on. If happy comes along - that weird unbearable delight that's actual happy - I think you have to grab it while you can. You take what you can get, 'cause it's here, and then...gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    You want Buffy to be confiding in Spike about her feelings for another man? Seriously?
    Exactly, that would be seriously messed up.
    For me the moment Xander hooked up with Dawn and we now have confirmation that they are having sex, bander is done.
    I think the biggest reason why we had bander in season 8 was for the rejection to happen. It had nothing to do with Xander himself, the rejection was needed to further push Buffy over the edge and feel isolated and alone. If as Buffy put it Spike had arrived sooner or Xander accepted Buffy's feelings as true then Twilight might not have happend, at the very least not how it did. Since Buffy would have something to cling to and not give into the world-ending screwing.

    That being said, i don't want there to be any pathetic attempt of having Buffy "pine" over Xander as if that would happen. Thankfully issue 40 is a very good sign that we won't be going in that direction. No one could stand living under the same roof for 6 months with someone you love and regurarly hear them having sex with your younger sister.

    And lastly it would be very unfair to Spike as per example imagen that Xander/Dawn are it for life. One day all of the sudden Dawn tells Buffy,Xander, whoever that Xander was actually her second choice, Spike was her first choice but he rejected her. The same applies to Spike and Buffy, Spike cannot be made to be a second choice in anyway if he is the one for Buffy. These characters deserve better treatment then that. Thankfully nothing in season 8 or any other season for that matter suggests that Xander is on equal footing as Angel was or Spike is in Buffy's heart. Whatever feelings she did have pale in comparison to those two.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimeTravellingBunny View Post
    I think the one thing obvious from the fire escape scene is that Buffy is not comfortable with having a 'platonic friendly' relationship with Spike.
    I'm not good at interpreting the visual in the comic so I'll limit myself at words.

    Buffy: I betrayed the cause. I cut off the line of slayers -- I destroyed the wiccan community, tainted the earth, let all my friends down..Jesus..don't they think I already know?

    Spike is not included in the "all my friends". Spike still believes in her.

    I don't know why she's not inviting him in (maybe she still has some problem with "the outfits"), but the fire escape scene has three coincidental details with As You Were: "coming in", "bint", "break up"
    BUFFY: Dawn. (looks toward the house) She's inside waiting for dinner, she's counting on me. I'm not letting her down by letting you in.
    SPIKE: So it's the fear of getting caught, then, is it?
    ..........
    SPIKE: ...I can't go inside, so ... maybe the time is right ... for you to come outside.
    So she goes outside to talk..for starters.

    Baby steps.
    "Gunn dies, Illyria Survives, Spike shanshus, Angel looses an arm and Xander looses an arm too, which is odd because he wasn't even there."
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingofCretins View Post
    I thought the business model was based on Enisy being the one to ask questions? I can't remember, but I think there's a six thousand odd post thread somewhere to support that
    Oooooh! Are we starting up again, y'all? Sweet! That thread was one of my absolute favorite things about Season 8 discussion.

    I agree with Maggie that Spike thinks Buffy's over him (Angel got the girl) and so he's trying to move on and be an adult, and wow he's doing a great job. This is much better than him staying away because he can't face her or running after her (decoy) desperately in the streets of Rome. He's secure and goal-oriented and he can be compassionate when needed. I have BIG LOVE for Spike right now. I've always loved him, but I think this is the best place he's ever been at and I'm so damned proud of him

    As for Buffy, I think she's not ready so she's throwing up all these obstacles to keep him at a distance. Because while he's got himself in order, she's (what would she call it?) needy to the amount of 10. She's lonely and sad, but she's also terrified of pursuing any kind of romance (the last three times she did led to disaster--the gang bursting in on her with Satsu, walking in on Xander kissing Dawn then later Xander rejecting her, and finally spacefrakking the world into an apocalypse). During A Beautiful Sunset, Buffy worried that something was wrong with her. Well, Season 8 hasn't improved her batting average in terms of successful romantic liaisons.

    So she's trying to focus on her work and her family. And isn't that the best thing she could do? She's taking care of herself instead of leaping into a relationship with Spike.

    The irony here is that all season she's let herself feel lonely until she couldn't take it anymore and she turned to romantic partners for solace. Now, she's still so lonely, lonely in a way she's never been before with the whole world against her (her girls against her), only she keeps refusing to use Spike for comfort. Does anyone doubt that if she turned to him for comfort that he'd not give it to her? Even if it was just "hold me." I like the implications possible there. That compared to all the others, she's definitely, absolutely not using Spike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maggie View Post
    I actually think the non-invite is Buffy's (non) doing. Whether she could do it herself or ask others, it's plain she doesn't want him invited in. I just don't think it's rejection.
    Scott Allie used those very words--it's not meant as a "rejection."


    King, I really agree with all that you're saying about Buffy being single and the Logan/Veronica stuff. I think if there is a future for Spike and Buffy (and I feel there is), that it's going to be about taking it slow and not rushing into things. And because Buffy seems to be actively avoiding using Spike to cure her loneliness, I hope this means she'll find a way to be happy while being single. She needs to find her own sense of self-worth before approaching Spike right now. As the symbolism suggests, he's not beneath her anymore. She's the one who's vulnerable and laid low.


    Enisy, it really was a treehouse, wasn't it? Moscow Watcher's been keeping the backporch light on if we want to go back.

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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emmie View Post
    Enisy, it really was a treehouse, wasn't it? Moscow Watcher's been keeping the backporch light on if we want to go back.
    Ahhh, I don't know...! *flails* Maybe when Season 9 starts up?

    King, I'm not sure if Xander/Buffy is going to get any more attention, even in a triangle setting -- like Vampmogs said in another thread, it mostly just seemed like something Joss wanted to get off his chest. Would be fun if it did, though. I liked the Dawn/Xander/Buffy dynamic in #40.

    Did everyone read Scott Allie's Q&A?

    Scott Allie: Do you guys really think that narratively, that's a good scene to go back to? I can see how it will help putty in the little wedges in continuity, but does it really need to be done? Depending on what goes on with them in Season 9, it MIGHT be relevant, I could see Buffy and Spike having a conversation where he calls her on her callousness and she says, You know how I found out you were alive ...? But unless it's pertinent to something going on in Season 9, we probably won't go back to it.

    Sienna observed that this quote lends credence to the idea that, more than being put-off or insensitive, Buffy was defensive in the #36 reunion scene. Makes sense to me.

    Also, I have a question:

    Going by #40, Spike and Buffy seem to have a healthier, easier rapport than ever. Going by any Whedonverse product in existence, Joss can't write healthy, easy relationships for extended periods of time. What untapped sources of tension do you think he still has at his disposal, where Spike/Buffy is concerned?

    We were told that Spike will have a more central role in Season 9 than he did in Season 8, so I dunno, we might have some of that coming our way. (If not in Season 9, though, then in Season 10, or whenever Spike and Buffy get smoochy again.)

    ETA: Of course, they might just have sporadic, angst-free UST until the end of the series, when they'll hook up for keeps, but I'm not that optimistic.

    ETA 2: I want to update my collection of Spike/Buffy VIP quotes with quotes from the Season 8 staff! I know most of them were partial to Bangel, but I do remember seeing some Spuffy-positive quotes in the last few years. Who wants to help me find them?

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  15. #35
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    TimeTravellingBunny
    Buffy saying "I broke the scythe" is made a big deal of because the scythe symbolizes a lot more than it is.
    Yes, I think she tries to say "I broke you love and trust" - but, of course, Spike doesn't interpret her words that way, because he doesn't believe that she had ever loved him. To him, Buffy's behavior is just "weird".

    Enisy
    Going by #40, Spike and Buffy seem to have a healthier, easier rapport than ever. Going by any Whedonverse product in existence, Joss can't write healthy, easy relationships for extended periods of time. What untapped sources of tension do you think he still has at his disposal, where Spike/Buffy is concerned?
    I think it will be Angel and Faith. Separately, of course.

    I can imagine a scenario in which Buffy's team desperately needs Angel's help, and Buffy flatly refuses to work with him, but Spike insists... and Buffy's Spangel nightmares start again.

    Another scenario is Spike spending time with Faith, helping her to bring Angel back.

    I think it will ultimately boil down to relationships. I don't think that Spike can suddenly lose his soul for a while, or something like that.

    I do remember seeing some Spuffy-positive quotes in the last few years. Who wants to help me find them?
    I'll try to find time to look through Q&A sessions at Slayalive. I think there are some good Spuffy quotes there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emmie View Post
    King, I really agree with all that you're saying about Buffy being single and the Logan/Veronica stuff.
    See, I say LoVe and it makes sense to anybody who's seen that show (and you also get, in that comparison, why I much prefer that relationship).

    Quote Originally Posted by Enisy View Post
    Ahhh, I'm not sure...! *flails* Maybe when Season 9 starts up again?

    King, I'm not sure if Xander/Buffy is going to get any more attention, even in a triangle setting -- like Vampmogs said in another thread, it mostly just seemed like something Joss wanted to get out of his chest. Would be fun if it did, though. I liked the Dawn/Xander/Buffy dynamic in #40.
    I think you mean... the Dawn/Buffy dynamic, since it was a */Xander dynamic as it was a */coffee dynamic or a */pajamas dynamic

    I wouldn't be surprised if it was something Joss just wanted to get off his chest (which, in fairness, is what I asked for aaaaaaaaaall the way back after 8.02, that he address it and that the dream wasn't just a cheap gotcha), but if so, it still speaks slightly worse of Buffy's... hmmm... emotional fidelity/authenticity in a season that already doesn't speak well of it. If she meant it, it should cross her mind from time to time and she should have moments of awkward tension that basically reverse her and Xander's role in earlier seasons. I'd be happy to see it even if it was pretextual to eventual Spuffiness (although not if it was pretextual to breaking up Xander/Dawn).

    Did everyone read Scott Allie's Q&A?

    Scott Allie: Do you guys really think that narratively, that's a good scene to go back to? I can see how it will help putty in the little wedges in continuity, but does it really need to be done? Depending on what goes on with them in Season 9, it MIGHT be relevant, I could see Buffy and Spike having a conversation where he calls her on her callousness and she says, You know how I found out you were alive ...? But unless it's pertinent to something going on in Season 9, we probably won't go back to it.

    Sienna observed that this quote lends credence to the idea that, more than being put-off or insensitive, Buffy was defensive in the #36 reunion scene. Makes sense to me.
    I tried not to speak the words in 8.36, and I'm going to try not to speak them after this Q&A, so I'll say instead I'm not surprised and I agree. If they ever do go back to it, I'd love for them to figure out some way to do it with hilarious brevity, a la the "here's why Tucker is going to attack the Prom" reveal.

    Also, I have a question:

    Going by #40, Spike and Buffy seem to have a healthier, easier rapport than ever. Going by any Whedonverse product in existence, Joss can't write healthy, easy relationships for extended periods of time. What untapped sources of tension do you think he still has at his disposal, where Spike/Buffy is concerned?
    Hmmm... I think it's TBA. They'll have to invent it. All the obvious things from Season 8 -- Buffy robs banks? That hypocrite / Buffy slept with a woman? -- the ethical choices Spike could go after, they all kind of get wishes away by the big change and the end of the Slayer army and all. As far as personal stuff... he could get on her for crushing on Xander*, since he and Xander don't like each other, but that's only if they are actually going to revisit that at all. From her to him... his post-recorporealization manwhoring (Harmony, Spider, countless women at Playboy Mansion)? Seems pretty tenuous, since A) she'd have to know, B) we'd have to dig into the definite canon status of "After the Fall" for part of it, and C) what right would she have?

    The only stuff other than that I can think of is all stuff that is even older that I always was curious about -- like Buffy knowing about Spike hunting with Dru in "Crush" or his attempt in "Smashed" -- but damn. Way too old to matter, especially since, unlike the "Becoming" lie, it's hard to get people to care.

    So we're left with... A) ribbing over Xander, Xander/Dawn, living with them, etc, B) general "mission" disagreements if they have any, and C) whatever they can make up during the season.

    *I compare Buffy/Spike to LoVe, and I realized where this type of dynamic would fit in -- Weevil. VM fans may remember Weevil learning that LoVe was back together, and his reaction. Logan and Weevil are absolutely the best template for understanding Xander and Spike.

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    Here's a conflict between Buffy and Spike:

    One of the bad guys in Season 9 is human. Spike's for killing him because he keeps evading the authorities (the way the Joker keeps escaping from Arkham) and creating havoc, destruction and suffering (maybe this guy has organized the vampires so he's got demons working for him, too). Buffy meanwhile is sticking to her no-killing-people stance (and waffling on it).

    Spike is definitely on sound moral ground, generally, but he's also the guy who'll torture someone for information to save a friend's life. And let's not forget him crashing into Big Ben just 'cause it'd be funny. His souled, vampire morality might not twinge too hard at the idea of killing a human monster. (Which would be really cool 'cause Spike wasn't around when Warren was killing people and we never heard his take on the subject. Plus, all soul-having and regretting his killing days now plus a white hat.)

    I'm really attached to this idea that Season 9 is going to test Spike's shiny and new morality.

    (King, have you seen Batman: Under the Red Hood?)

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    I don't think souled Spike would have taken a different position than the one he did in "Dead Things" (by which I mean Katrina, not the balcony -- although I suppose he'd take that same position again if offered), so that would be an interesting scenario. Does it run too closely to the brief debate between Buffy, Dawn, and Xander about Warren, though? Is it actually a vehicle for Spike to gain sympathy from other characters perhaps more likely to share that outlook?

    Y'know what -- they could actually do the same thing, but the other way. Buffy's been considered much more hardboiled since Season 8 started; maybe it's Spike who has to stop her killing someone? Oh hello "No Future For You" and "Time of Your Life" payoff...

    EDIT: Nope. But I'll wiki

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    Yeah, but I think Season 9 is about Buffy not being like that. The reason she was like that in NFFY and ToYL was because of her Big Picture mentality. #40 destroyed that. She's going back to the core of her strength, so I don't see that fitting exactly. Though maybe in a way like she's trying to get back to her shiny morality but her Season 8 experience is in the mix, too.

    But still, the reason Buffy was so close to killing was because of the extraordinary pressures that required a Big Picture mentality and for her to do that, she had to start disconnecting, which meant the angel on her shoulder wasn't being heard all too well. Those pressures don't exist in Season 9, at least not the Big Picture deal.

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  20. #40
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    The "Dead Things" position gets nothing? At all?

    *snaps fingers repeatedly* These are the jokes...

    Yeah, I don't really think Buffy as the darker one there is really all that great an idea, but it would subvert the customary roles between those two.

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