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Thread: Doctor Who

  1. #161
    The Dark Avenger NileQT87's Avatar
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    In my defense, I was told my beloved 16-year-old cat died about halfway through watching A Christmas Carol. I haven't summoned the courage to watch it again... And it's hard to disassociate that event from coloring my viewing experience.

    The Beast Below and The Big Bang had the big emotional moments that pop out at me, though The Doctor's Wife and The Almost People were also on that level. The scene in Amelia's bedroom during The Big Bang is still the pinnacle moment for me of Matt's acting and Moffat's writing.

    The Doctor's Wife was a glorious love letter to the 48-year mythology of the show. The Confidential for that one was almost as emotional as the episode itself--starting with seeing the likes of William Russell's Ian superimposed on the TARDIS giving his incredulous speech from An Unearthly Child about the TARDIS traveling in time and space (that made me smile so much). And the You Sexy Thing segment was the best Confidential "fanvid" out of all of them.

    (Please give William Russell even the tiniest cameo on the show before it's too late! Note that he's 86, so time is of the essence.

    Bernard Cribbins, who played Wilfred Mott, was also in one of the two Peter Cushing Dalek movies in the 1960s, as well--that was initially only supposed to be a wink, wink cameo in Voyage of the Damned, but he was brought in as Donna's grandfather when Howard Attfield's ill-health and soon death from cancer was apparent. His version of what became Wilf and Donna's telescope scene on the hill is on the DVDs.

    Trivia: William Russell a.k.a. Russell Enoch's son is Alfred "Alfie" Enoch--yes, he had his son very late in life--who is one of the Hogwarts students in Harry Potter. Patrick Troughton's grandson is also Harry Melling a.k.a. Dudley Dursley. And Pat's son, David Troughton, has been in a bunch of DW episodes, including Midnight as Professor Hobbes beside Tennant. His appearances go back to his dad's last story, The War Games, as a Confederate soldier named Private Moor and another, The Curse of Peladon, in the Pertwee era where he proposes to Jo as King Peladon. Not to mention Georgia Moffett, Peter Davison's daughter, who just had a baby girl with David Tennant named Olive. And apparently, Georgia Moffett went to the same school as and was best friends with Colin Baker's daughter. Lots of famous Who offspring to look out for! And I have also noticed a rather large amount of Star Wars villains showing up in Classic Who--not to mention Gibbs from PotC! David Tennant's dad, Sandy McDonald, cameoed in The Unicorn and the Wasp.)

    Aah, not long before I get to watch it. I'll be interested to see what kind of rumored "images" those end up being. Ah, I just got spoiled. I think.
    Last edited by NileQT87; 27-08-11 at 07:45 PM.

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  2. #162
    Sassenach sherrilina's Avatar
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    Well that episode sure was, um, special...o_O

    It made even less sense than the last premiere!

    Loved the Amy/Rory flashbacks at least, except a little less when they implied that they only got together because of the intervention of someone from the future, my least favorite plot device! The episode all kind of went downhill from there...the whole Robot Ship thing made me LOL, it's like that terrible Eddie Murphy movie...

    And yay for the shout outs to the old companions, interesting Eleven reaction though...

    I think I've just about given up on Moffat's ability to make any sense with his arcs though, he just likes to throw in random stuff and shiny distractions and expect fans to just pretend it all makes sense...
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    Tonight's Who was wonderful daft fun. Loved it. Anyone else think River was channeling a bit of Capt John Hart there at times.

    A couple of my favorite lines under the cut..


    Spoiler:

    "Shut up dad, I'm focusing on dress sizes"

    "OK - I'm inside the head of a giant robot replica of my wife. I'm really trying not to see this as a metaphor."


    Yes a wee bit too fast paced considering how complicated the underlying plot was, but still fun.

  4. #164
    and her haircut. Nina's Avatar
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    I was suprised with this episode. I only knew the title and saw a very short preview and was expecting a silly stand alone about Hitler, which was a scary thought.


    I loved every second of it; the lines, the acting by AK and MS, the flashbacks, Melody Pond pre-River Song. And I just wait and see before I start complaining about plotholes and other stuff because in contrast to sherrilina I've lots of faith in Moffat's storytelling skills.

  5. #165
    The Dark Avenger NileQT87's Avatar
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    I think I now know what has been bugging me all season: the slick editing and quirky, fast pacing with all the little speed-ups. It's a new style and I've really been having trouble enjoying it. I'd like to see them tone down the quirkiness and return to a more natural pace (series 5 had a lot more breathing space and natural pacing).

    I didn't really connect with much of it. Well, at least this season has had The Doctor's Wife, The Rebel Flesh and The Almost People. I rewatched series 5 a ton, so I'm really not a Moffat hater. I'm just not sure if I like the current direction of the show's tone. I think a new companion would also freshen up the whole thing. I loved River in series 4, 5 and early on in series 6. Now, I'm kind of waiting for it to be over. Amy and Rory are a bit pointless. And once again, Matt's best chemistry with a recurring cast member so far has been with Caitlin Blackwood! She was the best thing about this episode.

    I must say that I was impressed with Matt's physicality while he was poisoned with all the leg movements.

    In other news, I just watched Fright Night with DT this afternoon as well. I think I actually enjoyed it more sadly, even though it was pretty daft. And that one I actually expected to hate.

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  6. #166
    Sassenach sherrilina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NileQT87 View Post
    Amy and Rory are a bit pointless.
    Well Moffat is certainly moving in that direction, by making it seem like the whole point of Amy and Rory is only to provide the sperm and egg for ~Melody~ to be born, even having Melody go back and manipulate time to make sure she was born...such a shame that this beautiful character backstory/exposition was only there to focus on River/advance that plotline! :/

    I also didn't even think about this until someone pointed it out, but in this episode Moffat essentially says that murdering 10 million people as Hitler did is less grave a war crime than merely killing one Time Lord, the Doctor, since the Meet Dave-style Justice Bot crew stopped their mission to deal with Hitler when they saw River there, considering her a bigger criminal.

    I mean wow, I love the Doctor and all but...stay classy, Moffat!

    (I thought they were going to do something interesting there at first with the Doctor and the Time War, you know, go after The Doctor since he basically wiped out his whole race and most of the Daleks during the Time War, but I guess not...)
    Last edited by sherrilina; 28-08-11 at 02:05 AM.
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  7. #167
    The Dark Avenger NileQT87's Avatar
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    Yeah... The Doctor is technically a bigger war criminal than Hitler if you think how many times he's committed genocide (and not just in NuWho). He's always been a hypocrite about his own morality (Cold Blood was basically an inept retread of The Silurians from 1970 where Pertwee--known for karate chopping his enemies--ends up taking the side of the Silurians and gets mad at the Brigadier for blowing up their cave because they've just spent the entire serial killing humans with a plague--sound familiar?--he does the same thing in The Christmas Invasion, where I also think the Doctor was wrong to remove Harriet Jones). At least Troughton typically just sent the Ice Warriors trying to take over the Earth with their "seeds of death" a.k.a. bubble bath suds into the sun and was done with it. And then there's the fact that the Doctor has very often chosen companions that acted as weapons for him (the point of Journey's End and A Good Man Goes to War both). Look no further than the Brigadier, Ace, Leela, Jamie, Ian, Jack, etc... All who were definitely blunt instruments on more than a few occasions. There's a great scene of Sarah Jane in a white Edwardian dress toting a huge rifle (that she knows how to use and was put in her hands by the Doctor) in Pyramids of Mars. He's always been a massive hypocrite. He was just more honest about his self-preservative violence streak back in the days of Hartnell (Ian stopped him from smashing in a caveman's skull with a rock in the first serial--and that was right after he abducted the nosy teachers for being concerned about Susan and finding the TARDIS in the junkyard because he feared they'd tell the authorities). Then there's the bizarre line where Pertwee states that Chairman Mao allows him to address him on a first-name basis (Tse-Tung)!--yikes--a bit hypocritical to suddenly go 'Hitler bad' (he could have at least made a fuss about messing up timelines and fixed points in time).

    Short of River going on a full-on universe-wide murdering rampage, no way is she going to pile up more deaths than the Doctor, even without counting his genocides of the Time Lords and Daleks during the Time War. Part of the reasons that Steven and Tegan left the Doctor was because they were getting sick of all the death, much of which he was the cause of. Both also got to witness fellow companions dying while with him. Yeah, it is a little offensive that he's considered better than her while she's being compared to Hitler for only killing him (superiority complex, much?). The darkest hour there is believing that he's better than either of them. At least you got a bit of humility when the Doctor's first reaction to seeing Rose, Martha and Donna was "GUILT"! Though I think he's done a pretty thorough job of destroying Amy, as well (she spent her childhood being taken to 7 psychiatrists and she has a mess of relationship issues--Rory is the most stable thing she has, but she doesn't always seem to fully appreciate him). Little Amelia is just a symbol of what isn't fully broken... yet. Amy arguably is one of his most broken companions of all.

    The flippant explanation of River's psychotic dark period just wasn't done in as serious of a way as I would have liked. It was mostly played for laughs. Her saving the Doctor just ended up not really resonating as a major epiphany--it was more like, 'oh, I'm supposed to have a relationship with you'. I guess there is logic to showing her psychosis like that of a sugar-high child in a candy shop, but I don't really see it as the 'tour de force by Alex Kingston' that they kept advertising it as. Frankly, I liked River more before she started regressing too far towards the start, which is going to make it difficult to see the Doctor having a relationship with this younger version (it's almost coming across as, since he's already said goodbye, knows it won't last and has no hope of it being permanent and interrupting his lifestyle, he might as well have some romance in his life--he's not really treating it with the seriousness that he broached that topic with Rose and the reasons why he doesn't have relationships). River's best and most emotional appearance is still Forest of the Dead--her end.

    Moffat is also at risk of writing Amy and Rory as mere egg and sperm donors (and the Doctor seeing them as such) so the Doctor can have a "special" girlfriend. They're at risk of being tag-along mother and father-in-laws rather than companions. Rory is the most sympathetic character of the lot right now.
    Last edited by NileQT87; 28-08-11 at 10:19 AM.

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  8. #168
    Culture Slut Rosamunde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherrilina View Post
    I also didn't even think about this until someone pointed it out, but in this episode Moffat essentially says that murdering 10 million people as Hitler did is less grave a war crime than merely killing one Time Lord, the Doctor, since the Meet Dave-style Justice Bot crew stopped their mission to deal with Hitler when they saw River there, considering her a bigger criminal.

    I mean wow, I love the Doctor and all but...stay classy, Moffat!
    I know, right? I actually quite liked this episode, but that was just... I don't even know. What were they thinking?

    I get really sick of the way they write the Doctor and have everyone worshipping him and acting like he's the most amazing thing in the world. They did it so much with Ten and now it feels like they're doing it with Eleven too. I like the show so much better when the Doctor's just a fun guy who's quite good at puzzles, or a mad man with a box. I don't like it when they treat him like a hero. I don't feel like it works. I felt like they weren't doing that after the last episode at Demons Run where they were bringing up his hubris and talking about how he was considered a warrior, but now we have weird robot people treating him like he's a hero or a god or something again. I just don't understand why people worship him like that, and watching it makes me really uncomfortable.

    I actually enjoyed watching this episode. I found it exciting. I liked finding out what was happening. I thought the jokes were good. Then when I sat back and started thinking about it, I really wasn't so keen any more. The whole experience was kind of like eating fast food.

    I love how they just chucked Mels into the story and pretended that she'd always been there. I really enjoy River's character but I feel like the plotting behind her is just SUCH a mess. Also, I just don't like the way they've written Amy's reaction to her baby being taken away. Her child has been kidnapped and is being turned into a psychopath (apparently), and she's just accepted this? Really? And why are they having such a hard time finding her when they could find Amy so easily, when Amy was being hidden by the same people? Why aren't they trying harder? I just don't understand Amy and Rory's reaction to this. They just don't care enough. At the end of the episode it seemed like they'd just accepted that they'd lost baby Melody forever.

    I did enjoy the "Long Time Ago in Ludworth" section, though, and having young Amelia Pond around is always a pleasure. She's just so funny.
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  9. #169
    bewitching the mind Mara's Avatar
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    I haven’t commented on this season so far, because I just couldn’t connect with the whole thing so commenting felt a bit pointless. I have struggled myself trough season 5 because I had trouble warming up to Mattt’s Doctor and connecting with the character. I must admit that I even considered not watching last nights episode because a title like let’s kill Hitler doesn’t in particular inspire me to put on my television.

    Boy am I glad I decided to watch! I loved this episode, it finally felt like a proper Doctor Who episode Moffat style, I had so much trouble getting in to this season because with the exception of The Doctors Wife I just didn’t like the episodes. ( The Doctors Wife being a gem and the thing that kept me with the show till this moment)
    But yesterday’s episode somehow worked for me. I loved almost everything about it, I excepted a one shot with Hitler like Nina pointed out, so I was completely and presently surprised when the focus was taken off, of Hitler and right into the more interesting stuff.

    I loved Matt Smith in this episode, his acting finally managed to convince me fully and to blow me away a bit actually. His dying scene was really intense and I felt for him. Loved the link back to Rose and Martha and Donna, but although I can understand Elevens reaction it is too bad that the only thing that is mentioned of Ten is the guilt, there was more to Ten then the fact that he felt guilty all the time. The other thing I have to say about that scene is although I am happy that the Tardis showed him Rose, I would have liked for the Tardis to show him someone farther along the road, I would have liked it if the Tardis showed him a young Sarah jane or something I mean Rose was important and Ten was clearly in love with her but I don’t know I felt like there were other companions from OldWho who deserve the same recognition. This being said I do realize that showing pictures of ALL the companions wouldn’t have worked, but it just bugs me a bit. Oh and apparently the Doctor starts to wisher in your ear as soon as he is in love, that scene with River really reminded me of that scene with Rose and Ten at the beach.

    I must say I loved Rory but I do agree that bringing on new companions would be a nice change. As far as I am concerned Moffat needs to wrap up the River storyline and just do something else while Matt is still in the Tardis.

    Kind of liked the idea of the robot, it just felt as such a human thing to do, go back and punish war criminals. I believe I have a fanfic with that idea somewhere and to see it actually on screen done in a really cool way was lovely, oh and the anybodies! I laughed so hard at those.

    Loved the regeneration scene, it was so interesting to see someone other then the Doctor react to a new body post regeneration, and I think AK did a good job with that scene.

    So I am very glad that I stuck it out, hopefully this season will now continue to deliver, the preview for next week looks promising.

    Oh and Nile how awesome that you got to see Fright Night! We have to wait till the 29th of September here in Holland for that to come out, I am expecting to be really disappointed but it is good to hear that maby I won’t be

  10. #170
    and her haircut. Nina's Avatar
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    Okay some more thoughts;

    I see the Doctor a lot as I see Dumbledore; He is this mysterious guy who is both feared and beloved and for a very long time people ignore who he really is. Dumbledore also turned out to be a master manipulator with a secret agenda with the bigger picture in mind. The Doctor is pretty much the same, the way he almost tricked into Melody giving him her life was nasty but at the same time a good move in the war against evil. A lot like Dumbledore leaving Harry with the abusing Dursleys so he would grow up humble enough to sacrifice himself for the greater good, it had to happen but it's cold. And I've very little trouble with that Doctor (I never saw old!Who), the only times when it bothered me was when Ten was tinkerbell!Jesus!Doctor.That felt a lot like he as buying his own hype.


    Amy and Rory I don't really have a big problem with yet, maybe I'll after their story is done. But right now I've the feeling that their faith in the Doctor is so strong that they can't imagine that he would fail to bring Melody back home. Combine that with their weird life wich must feel like they are stuck in a dream/fairytale, and I can understand them being this calm. If the Doctor fails and Amy and Rory stop traveling with him and sit both at home without their child, and they still are calm and okay with everything... yes that would be really bad writing. But I've the feeling that we won't see that since Moffat tries to escape this and leaves it to our imagination. (I'm mixed about that, not a fan of RTD's soap opera approach but Moffat is like the complete opposite.) I do agree that they are rather flat, but sadly enough the most companions in new!Who are this flat. Captain Jack is the only real exception, Donna & River have also a bit more spark. But Martha and Rose were very much like Rory and Amy; the fanclub of the Doctor travelling with him and in the background they grow up a bit.

    My only real concern is River's story. I'll wait for the finale, because maybe it all will make sense. (I still hope he knows what he is doing.) But it looks like Moffat changed his mind and changed her story. Like the original plan was to tell her story in 4 or 5 seasons but that the plan is changed now and they want to wrap it up this season. But we'll see, the season is not over yet and with Moffat's style I think it's too early to judge.

  11. #171
    Hellmouth Tourist Stephanie's Avatar
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    So glad its back, im missing some good TV!!

    It's all getting very confusing, im too scared to move when its on incase i miss something lol

    The Melody/River character was interesting, i did love the play off between them esp the banana.

    Can't wait to see how its all going to fit together

    I'm quite nervous about who the new assistant will be cause i do love Amy, i thought after Rose id never love Doctor Who again haha Matt Smith is doing a fantastic job.

  12. #172
    Lonely God tangent's Avatar
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    I've only watched this the once and to be fair i was feeling a little delicate at the time (I blame the Amaretto!). However I really, really did enjoy this one. An interview with MS that i read previous called it a romp and for my money that's exactly waht we got.

    There was a lot there; a heck of a lot but for some reason the timing actually felt better that i feel it has done in some of Moffat's reign. Front and centre was the story of Melody Pond who, having been raised by the Silence (and a lot more to be told there i feel) is a psychopathic assassin who has travelled back in time and befriended her own parents when they were children just to get close enough to the Doctor to kill him. It might seem a mite convoluted but it's classic Moffat and really is epic in scale if you think about it.

    Why doesn't she kill him right there and then though? I think partly because she wants to see what he can do and partly becasue the first attempts are really more in the way of foreplay. I think the Judas tree poison was always the weapon of choice specially as it has built in no regeneration qualities. I think knowing what we do of River that playfulness is still there within Melody even pre Regeneration (love that scene by the way -"I'm going to be wearing a lot of hotpants" heee)

    As people have mentioned the Tesselecta has been done before in Dave (and shades of Terminator there as well i thought) but it wasn't really the true focus of the ep so I don't mind that so much. The real villain here is Melody Pond although even that's a little harsh as she's more of a weapon. The way the Doctor manipulates her into saving her though is brilliant and for my money he had that plan from the moment he stepped out of the TARDIS in the top hat and tails. Eleven does remind me a lot of Seven. He plays the long game, keeps his own counsel, is not above manipulating those nearest and dearest to him to achieve his ends and thinks several moves ahead. Yes, I think there's a lot of Chess grandmaster Seven in the mix here.

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  13. #173
    The Dark Avenger NileQT87's Avatar
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    One thing Let's Kill Hitler did do was finally explain why Romana could try on several different bodies (and talked about shortening the arms)--and specifically model herself on Princess Astra (Lalla Ward). The Time Lords in The Deadly Assassin also talked about regeneration as a rather mundane thing. The elderly Time Lord, K'anpo Rimpoche (a wise hermit whom the Doctor knew when he was young on Gallifrey), in Planet of the Spiders also models himself specifically on Cho-Je, a mere projection which he has been using the whole serial to interact with others--it's like he had already picked his future self out.

    And of course, River seems to be able to make subtle alterations to her appearance well-after the 15 hours (gradual de-aging). The Doctor so far has shown to be complete rubbish, even for a Time Lord, at regeneration. The best he seemed capable of doing was regrow a hand in the first 15 hours. For the most part, it's a crapshoot for him. It appears that the Time Lords could actually pick a body for another Time Lord if the regeneration was forced (The War Games where Troughton does his 'too young', 'too old', 'too thin', 'too fat', etc... routine--the fact that you can now match up Doctors to it is hilarious).

    He also appears to be far more erratic and unstable after regeneration than Romana and River were. It goes with Romana I's line about how the Doctor only passed at the Academy on his second attempt with 51%!

    I also saw it pointed out that the ability to transfer regenerations to another being was also seen before in Mawdryn Undead (Davison era).

    It seems Moffat is actually working through a lot of the old continuity issues like retconning the Looms and explaining Romana's bizarre regeneration by just stating that the Doctor is particularly crap at it. Though the Master was also able to influence his regeneration to make him younger and stronger in Utopia. One could also argue that a lot of the Doctor's regenerations have some subtle subconscious influence concerning bodies that will help him out in his current life situation.

    Spoiler:
    1) The First Doctor is confronted with the fact that he wasn't the kind of personality that was best suited to being a friend to humanity, so he overcompensates by becoming the Second Doctor, who arguably had one of the most friend-like/wacky uncle relationships with his companions. Rather than be an authoritative figure who struggled to get along at first with these human companions that he suddenly found himself surrounded with, he became unassuming of any great power, friendly and nice. He also got a much younger body, as his earlier one was wearing out at nearly 450 years old and he couldn't do a lot of things he needed to be able to do (thus needing the likes of Ian and Steven to compensate and manipulate into becoming protectors of the group). Perhaps he's even tired of being seen as a doddering old man and wants to be seen as hip and cool for his young companions--and this time they're a hip Swinging Sixties duo that met in a Mod club (he even ends up with a Beatles haircut, even if his look and mannerisms are more Nutty Professor and Charlie Chaplin!).

    2) The Second Doctor is confronted with the fact that he isn't really seen as a figure of great power at all--and was in fact powerless at his forced regeneration and was powerless to stop the Time Lords from erasing his friends' minds and returning them to their bleak home timelines (where they await a Redcoat with a musket and being an emotionless computer on the Wheel). To compensate, he grows into a more authoritative figure who isn't looked down upon as a clown or hobo quite so easily. His dandy-like appearance becomes neater and tidier to fit this role. He also grows into the full-on hero role, which perhaps is a rebellion against the Time Lords, who showed scorn against his heroic activities in wanting to help people by interfering. He becomes a man of great physical power and intimidation, karate chopping his enemies with Venusian Aikido and having a fleet of man toys such as Bessie and the Whomobile, rather than a figure who runs around with a silly gait, playfully pals around and is more visibly scared.

    3) The Third Doctor, perhaps tired of being a more authoritative, pompous figure (perhaps feeling he fits in with the seriousness and responsibleness of U.N.I.T. too well and having his alpha testosterone matches with the Brigadier), then becomes more of a rebellious, zany bohemian who wants to be able to act like a child sometimes. He becomes more eccentric than ever.

    4) The Fourth Doctor tones down his persona and gains a more serious, passive and quieter personality after a period where he was beginning to feel his age, even becoming an old man in The Leisure Hive (Romana had earlier caught him trying to shave years off his age). Rather than a tired, worn-out figure with a booming voice who has a preference for his girls (Sarah Jane, Leela and Romana), he becomes a more patient, young man for dealing with a particularly difficult bunch of young companions that his prior self barely acknowledged.

    5) The Fifth Doctor becomes the Sixth Doctor, who dislikes his former incarnation being described as "sweet". He gains a much more confrontational and loud personality to overcompensate for what he perceived as a weakness in his former personality. And perhaps the Doctor thought that a stronger personality is what he needed when dealing with a near-death experience because of spectrox poisoning. He might also be trying to ward off the young Peri who seems to fancy his young and sweet fifth self that she met while on summer vacation in Lanzarote.

    6) The Sixth Doctor needs to become more affable with companions due to the troubled relationships he had, including perhaps guilt about what he thought had happened to Peri (the Valeyard made him think Peri had been shaved and melon-balled as a vessel for an alien brain, before learning that she had actually gotten saved by Yrcanos, whom she didn't particularly like). I'd imagine a form that Mel wasn't determined to make diet, exercise and drink carrot juice was also on his mind! The Seventh Doctor becomes more subtle and manipulative, but also unassuming with his tiny stature and initial silliness. He's more than willing to use the 'Ace up his sleeve', even though he won't set off all of her explosives, himself.

    7) The Seventh Doctor, perhaps realizing that his survival was dependent on Grace's help, turned into a romantic Hugh Grant figure that she might like. The fact that he nearly died while she played Puccini might have added to what he subconsciously took in.

    8) The Eighth Doctor, emotionally destroyed by the Time War, becomes a much harder, less affable, wartime figure who has lost faith in himself and others (and of course, he saw his own people become morally corrupt and had to destroy them on top of the Daleks). He wanders around aimlessly, popping up in historical events, but he needs someone desperately who likes him. He's really stopped liking himself at this point.

    9) The Ninth Doctor, knowing that he isn't a personality best-suited to be liked or even loved by Rose, becomes a person who is sure to share in that kind of attention and even fancied. He literally is built to be the perfect Doctor for Rose. Even his voice gains an accent that is similar to hers. He wants to feel wanted and loved after losing everything. He wants to belong and overcompensates for it by becoming the most 'human' Doctor. Rather than see humans as "apes", he wishes to fit in with them and help them, because that way he'd belong somewhere and share in their warmth, love, friendship and gratitude.

    10) The Tenth Doctor, feeling taken down a few pegs after having done things that went wrong, having trials of pride and losing everyone (even his hope for humanity's future at the end of the universe), is suddenly feeling unsure of himself and full of guilt. He becomes a less overtly-confident person and more awkward.


    I see all the Doctors to be a bit of a split persona who changes himself to fit in with each situation he regenerates into and is molded by the events that were with him when he did regenerate. And I would definitely not say it's a clean slate each time he regenerates. All these little trials have added up and he has grown. Certainly so when you see what he had been when he was that curmudgeonly antihero grandfather who didn't trust humans with his hapless, Earth-loving granddaughter. Even his ability to work the TARDIS has gone from a completely random crapshoot, to actually being able to control where the TARDIS goes on occasion. It got better after he plucked off a part from The Monk's Type 40 in The Time Meddler, but his ability to control the destinations only seemed to kick in when the Time Lords discontinued his exile. Jamie, in particular, tended to tease him a lot for not having a clue where they were going next.

    Romana, of course, is when you had another Time Lord come into the show that was so much better at everything than him, except she, like all the other Time Lords, were slightly inept bureaucrats when it came to survival (the Master, the Rani, the Monk, Chancellor Goth and the War Chief being among the few with some street smarts, but those were all villains). After their threatening and mysterious presence in The War Games, they quickly became fat, lazy bureaucrats in silly outfits that couldn't survive outside of the Citadel. Romana I similarly goes from being the glamorous, prim and proper Mary Tamm in her fancy gowns to the more bohemian Lalla Ward who dressed in her pink Tom Baker outfit clone, Little Lord Fauntleroy, a kinky schoolgirl uniform and an Edwardian bathing suit. She also changed her form and personality to match her circumstances and to be a better match for who she was with.

    River's closest precedent is probably Romana. Certainly all that stuff about her flying the TARDIS better is from Romana.
    Last edited by NileQT87; 29-08-11 at 02:59 PM.

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  14. #174
    Lonely God tangent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NileQT87 View Post
    One thing Let's Kill Hitler did do was finally explain why Romana could try on several different bodies (and talked about shortening the arms)--and specifically model herself on Princess Astra (Lalla Ward). The Time Lords in The Deadly Assassin also talked about regeneration as a rather mundane thing. The elderly Time Lord, K'anpo Rimpoche (a wise hermit whom the Doctor knew when he was young on Gallifrey), in Planet of the Spiders also models himself specifically on Cho-Je, a mere projection which he has been using the whole serial to interact with others--it's like he had already picked his future self out.

    And of course, River seems to be able to make subtle alterations to her appearance well-after the 15 hours (gradual de-aging). The Doctor so far has shown to be complete rubbish, even for a Time Lord, at regeneration. The best he seemed capable of doing was regrow a hand in the first 15 hours. For the most part, it's a crapshoot for him. It appears that the Time Lords could actually pick a body for another Time Lord if the regeneration was forced (The War Games where Troughton does his 'too young', 'too old', 'too thin', 'too fat', etc... routine--the fact that you can now match up Doctors to it is hilarious).

    He also appears to be far more erratic and unstable after regeneration than Romana and River were. It goes with Romana I's line about how the Doctor only passed at the Academy on his second attempt with 51%!

    I also saw it pointed out that the ability to transfer regenerations to another being was also seen before in Mawdryn Undead (Davison era).

    It seems Moffat is actually working through a lot of the old continuity issues like retconning the Looms and explaining Romana's bizarre regeneration by just stating that the Doctor is particularly crap at it. Though the Master was also able to influence his regeneration to make him younger and stronger in Utopia. One could also argue that a lot of the Doctor's regenerations have some subtle subconscious influence concerning bodies that will help him out in his current life situation.

    1) The First Doctor is confronted with the fact that he wasn't the kind of personality that was best suited to being a friend to humanity, so he overcompensates by becoming the Second Doctor, who arguably had one of the most friend-like/wacky uncle relationships with his companions. Rather than be an authoritative figure who struggled to get along at first with these human companions that he suddenly found himself surrounded with, he became unassuming of any great power, friendly and nice. He also got a much younger body, as his earlier one was wearing out at nearly 450 years old and he couldn't do a lot of things he needed to be able to do (thus needing the likes of Ian and Steven to compensate and manipulate into becoming protectors of the group). Perhaps he's even tired of being seen as a doddering old man and wants to be seen as hip and cool for his young companions--and this time they're a hip Swinging Sixties duo that met in a Mod club (he even ends up with a Beatles haircut, even if his look and mannerisms are more Nutty Professor and Charlie Chaplin!).

    2) The Second Doctor is confronted with the fact that he isn't really seen as a figure of great power at all--and was in fact powerless at his forced regeneration and was powerless to stop the Time Lords from erasing his friends' minds and returning them to their bleak home timelines (where they await a Redcoat with a musket and being an emotionless computer on the Wheel). To compensate, he grows into a more authoritative figure who isn't looked down upon as a clown or hobo quite so easily. His dandy-like appearance becomes neater and tidier to fit this role. He also grows into the full-on hero role, which perhaps is a rebellion against the Time Lords, who showed scorn against his heroic activities in wanting to help people by interfering. He becomes a man of great physical power and intimidation, karate chopping his enemies with Venusian Aikido and having a fleet of man toys such as Bessie and the Whomobile, rather than a figure who runs around with a silly gait, playfully pals around and is more visibly scared.

    3) The Third Doctor, perhaps tired of being a more authoritative figure (perhaps feeling he fits in with the seriousness and responsibleness of U.N.I.T. too well and having his alpha testosterone matches with the Brigadier), then becomes more of a rebellious, zany bohemian who wants to be able to act like a child sometimes. He becomes more eccentric than ever.

    4) The Fourth Doctor tones down his persona and gains a more serious, passive and quieter personality after a period where he was beginning to feel his age, even becoming an old man in The Leisure Hive (Romana had earlier caught him trying to shave years off his age). Rather than a tired, worn-out figure with a booming voice who has a preference for his girls (Sarah Jane, Leela and Romana), he becomes a more patient, young man for dealing with a particularly difficult bunch of young companions that his prior self barely acknowledged.

    5) The Fifth Doctor becomes the Sixth Doctor, who dislikes his former incarnation being described as "sweet". He gains a much more confrontational and loud personality to overcompensate for what he perceived as a weakness in his former personality. And perhaps the Doctor thought that a stronger personality is what he needed when dealing with a near-death experience because of spectrox poisoning. He might also be trying to ward off the young Peri who seems to fancy his young and sweet fifth self that she met while on summer vacation in Lanzarote (ahem, Turlough stripping his short shorts to reveal a Speedo and rescuing Peri after the camera slowly pans up her pink bikini--it's the closest DW has come to shameless porn).

    6) The Sixth Doctor needs to become more affable with companions due to the troubled relationships he had, including perhaps guilt about what he thought had happened to Peri (the Valeyard made him think Peri had been shaved and melon-balled as a vessel for an alien brain, before learning that she had actually gotten saved by Yrcanos, whom she didn't particularly like). I'd imagine a form that Mel wasn't determined to make diet, exercise and drink carrot juice was also on his mind! The Seventh Doctor becomes more subtle and manipulative, but also unassuming with his tiny stature and initial silliness.

    7) The Seventh Doctor, perhaps realizing that his survival was dependant on Grace's help, turned into a romantic Hugh Grant figure that she might like. The fact that he nearly died while she played Puccini might have added to what he subconsciously took in.

    8) The Eighth Doctor, emotionally destroyed by the Time War, becomes a much harder, less affable, wartime figure who has lost faith in himself and others (and of course, he saw his own people become morally corrupt and had to destroy them on top of the Daleks). He wanders around aimlessly, popping up in historical events, but he needs someone desperately who likes him. He's really stopped liking himself at this point.

    9) The Ninth Doctor, knowing that he isn't a personality best-suited to be liked or even loved by Rose, becomes a person who is sure to share in that kind of attention and even fancied. He literally is built to be the perfect Doctor for Rose. Even his voice gains an accent that is similar to hers. He wants to feel wanted and loved after losing everything. He wants to belong and overcompensates for it by becoming the most 'human' Doctor. Rather than see humans as "apes", he wishes to fit in with them and help them, because that way he'd belong somewhere and share in their warmth, love, friendship and gratitude.

    10) The Tenth Doctor, feeling taken down a few pegs after having done things that went wrong, having trials of pride and losing everyone (even his hope for humanity's future at the end of the universe), is suddenly feeling unsure of himself. He becomes a less overtly-confident person and more awkward.


    I see all the Doctors to be a bit of a split persona who changes himself to fit in with each situation he regenerates into and is molded by the events that were with him when he did regenerate. And I would definitely not say it's a clean slate each time he regenerates. All these little trials have added up and he has grown. Certainly so when you see what he had been when he was that curmudgeonly antihero grandfather who didn't trust humans with his hapless, Earth-loving granddaughter.
    I'd agree with a lot of that very comprehsensive regeneration roundup apart from perhaps the 6 to 7 to 8 part of it.

    I think Seven does react against his time as Six but not by vecoming more affable. I've always seen it as inverting Six's brash in your face persona which very much dealt with trouble face on and almost welcomed confrontation to one that was more subtle and in a way devious. seven was the kind of Doctor who, more often than any of the others would work out ways for the enemies to defeat themselves. On the Surface Seven is more of an affable character but he is very manipulative too, completely unafraid of using his companions to get what he wants.

    I think the change into Eight address's this side of the Doctor by becoming a trusting, romantic dreamer, more likely to appeal to peoples good side than to go behind their backs or manipulate them.
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    Sassenach sherrilina's Avatar
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    Read this interesting observation today:

    Doctor invites everyone to Utah at 16:30 in Impossible Astronaut, the death record in LKH says he died in Utah at 17:02. Exactly 32 minutes.

    "You'll be fine for 31 minutes. You'll be dead in 32 minutes."


    So now I bet that this will come up later, that Computer!Amelia was actually speaking about the future instance of death....though obviously we know the Doctor isn't *really* going to die for good (and it's unlikely Eleven is going to live for 100 years, since when has any regeneration of the Doctor managed that long?), so not too much suspense on that end....

    Quote Originally Posted by tangent View Post
    There was a lot there; a heck of a lot but for some reason the timing actually felt better that i feel it has done in some of Moffat's reign. Front and centre was the story of Melody Pond who, having been raised by the Silence (and a lot more to be told there i feel) is a psychopathic assassin who has travelled back in time and befriended her own parents when they were children just to get close enough to the Doctor to kill him. It might seem a mite convoluted but it's classic Moffat and really is epic in scale if you think about it.
    Was that why she traveled back in time though? I felt like it was to make sure her parents got together to have her, the way she was prompting them....in any case, it doesn't really make much sense (there is SO much to clarify about her timeline), and it's so very obvious Moffat only thought of it after season 5, or perhaps even in the interseason interval...the fact that a Mels has never been mentioned before (especially when the fact that the lack of mentions of personal friends is one of the ways in which Amy seemed less of a real person than say Rose/Martha/Donna)....I mean, even in 6x07 though, Rory easily could have said SOMETHING when he heard the name, like, "Melody like our friend, Mels?", which would have been the logical reaction anyway...instead the whole thing screams, "Lol, last minute retcon/addition, I decided to go in a new direction!"

    Because I don't see how any of what River said earlier about the Doctor could be true now unless she was lying earlier....she claimed she was like some kind of naive young girl swept off her feet by this man coming in and knowing so much about her, and yet, she grows up knowing about the Doctor, etc....and if Moffat wants to keep up the conceit that they've always met in strictly reverse order (which as I've argued before here never made sense anyway, but...), then it would mean we'd now never see River again (since this was the first meeting on her end), which I kind of doubt will be the case...and when do the picnics and such all happen, supposedly?

    Also it is convoluted, and pretty horrendous if you think about it--especially the military brainwashing part which is being treated far too lightly--and yet Moffat so far doesn't seem to be putting in the appropriate tragic tone for that part at least, especially with Amy and Rory's pretty blase reactions in the face of seeing their daughter back and a psychopath, etc. And no Moffat, growing up with your daughter without knowing it does NOT equal raising your own baby, not at all, please don't leave that as an excuse....
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  16. #176
    Slayer Koos's Avatar
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    Saw the lastest Doctor Who.

    Spoiler:
    Good episode. Better than last week and certainly better than Let's kill Hitler. Which was really messy. I really liked the future Amy. Too bad she couldn't come along and live her own life like Riker's 'twin' did in Star Trek. Sadly enough she forgot that she had to wait 36 years but that Rory had waited almost 1900 years.

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    The Dark Avenger NileQT87's Avatar
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    This episode was a massive improvement and actually made Rory and Amy feel important to the overall story, which they hadn't for much of the season.

    One of the best moments was the Doctor shutting the door and old Amy choosing to be killed with kindness. It reminds me a lot of Three refusing to save alternate reality versions of his friends as they face the "Inferno"/getting killed by molten lava (you even have the Brigade Leader, much like old Amy, trying to save himself and begging), as it would cause a paradox when he returns to his world.

    Rory just got a lot of points for saying that the Doctor is trying to turn him into him. Great moment, as was the one where he said that the Doctor makes his companions dangerous to themselves because they want to impress him. Arthur is wonderful.

    They handled the Doctor 'lite' of it well by keeping Matt in the TARDIS by making it so that the Doctor was in danger of a plague infection if he leaves it. He didn't feel missing, even though he was separated from the main action (as Amy was during The Lodger).

    There have been a few DW races with two hearts besides Gallifreyans (the Doctor's race/planet weren't mentioned until The War Games in 1969). The Dulcians (The Dominators) were another one (Jamie's single heart got the Doctor out of a lot of trouble there because it convinced the Dominators that there was a second species on Dulkis, which is why you have those scenes of Two telling Jamie to "just act stupid" and him playing dumb--ironically before we ever even learned that the Doctor had two hearts!--it was Pertwee's first story, Spearhead from Space, when we saw his x-ray) besides the Apalapucians. Speaking of characters being stuck inside the TARDIS or whole stories taking place inside the TARDIS, there's Amy's Choice, but The Edge of Destruction was the first (Hartnell's 3rd story--and Ian only notices a singular heartbeat in it--the best retcon there being that the Doctor had just been knocked out and Ian wouldn't have known that a singular heartbeat isn't a good sign, as seen in The Christmas Invasion/The Shakespeare Code)!

    The only thing I would have done with old Amy is that Karen really needed to be wearing some kind of saggy padding on her figure to sell the aging a bit more (boobs, belly and bottom really--even while keeping her otherwise skinny and fit). The hand aging makeup also didn't go up her arms. Some age spots or even prosthetics for the close-up shots would have fixed that. And you could see the yellow makeup on her reddened skin a bit too well. Some gray in the hair wouldn't have gone amiss either. I sort of doubt that a 60-year-old hardened Amy living in alone would have access to hair dye or be bothering with it.

    I found it interesting to see old Amy rejecting the Doctor in favor of Rory. It helped sell the idea that she is moving on from the Doctor (sorely needed) a lot more. I've correlated the Doctor/Amy relationship to Peter Pan before--and part of growing up in Peter Pan means rejecting/no longer believing in the magical being who abducts "children" from their homes (you even have the little Amelia in her bedroom imagery). Amy's story seems to be about growing up. And similarly, Peter and the Doctor both have extremely dark and flawed sides to their characters, even though their friends also see them as wonderful heroes who battle great foes.

    Ooh. And I just saw an interesting conversation about how old Amy's predicament of being erased from having ever happened might have undercurrents with where Melody/River is going. Will Amy and Rory end up choosing to raise Melody as a normal child, thus negating her ever becoming River? Wouldn't that put them at odds with the future that the Doctor thought he was going to have with River? Though it would also negate her death, making it a paradox that the Doctor ever knew her at all. Though as he's a complicated part of time and space, he and those affected will still be able to remember what never was.

    Trivia:
    Spoiler:
    * A white void was also seen in The Mind Robber, pt. 1 (1968), complete with white robots that have guns that pop out of their chests. There's also a risk of our heroes becoming stuck in the Land of Fiction (an alternate reality populated by fictional characters) forever, as they risk turning themselves into fictional characters and never being able to leave. And the white robots hunt them all through the story.

    Probably the most meta story in all of DW, which makes it a major forerunner of much of the very 'meta' nuWho. Amy is another one of those slightly unreal companions like Vicki, Steven, Jamie, Victoria, Zoe, Leela, Romana, Adric, Nyssa, Turlough, Jack, River, etc... Amy might be from modern Earth, but her entire life has been a fairy tale. Rory was initially a balance to her (the representative of Leadworth), but has since become the mythic, 2,000-year-old plastic centurion, which also puts him in the 'made unreal' camp along with Bad Wolf!Rose and the DoctorDonna.

    (Especially because none of these three TARDIS inhabitants seems particularly 'real', being that you've got an alien who travels through space and time, an 18th century Jacobite piper who often feels a lot like an old storybook with lots of Scottish clichés and a 21st century astrophysics genius who lived on a Wheel in space, complete with her '60s 'futuristic' silver catsuit. They wear 'fiction' on their sleeve and wouldn't look amiss in the Land of Fiction! Jamie's answer to Rapunzel about being neither a prince or a woodcutter's son, is that he's the son of a piper, as if that's anything less out of a fairy tale. There's a reason Two and Jamie got stuck at customs at Gatwick because of their lack of passports or any identification that wouldn't make them look insane and the same gag was done with the German soldier in The War Games... "You were fighting the Redcoats in 1745? That ambulance, was it going to a hospital or to a lunatic asylum?" "Savage" Leela, dressed up like a Victorian Eliza Doolittle, also had her moment where she was eating a pheasant with her bare hands in front of Professor Litefoot in The Talons of Weng-Chiang--and that was the story she doesn't spend in a leather loincloth! Not to mention the fact that she was going around stabbing people with her knife. Jamie and Leela are the two companions who constantly carry knives with them--it was interesting that Frazer recently mentioned that at a convention. Rose in her cut-off jean overall dress with Queen Victoria was very much in this vein of sticking out like a sore thumb, except these companions did it in present day Earth stories, too, even more than the Doctor.)

    * A place where the TARDIS travelers find themselves in an out-of-phase time stream (one in which they see themselves dead and encased in a museum display in the future) was also seen in The Space Museum, pt. 1 (1965). They can see, but can't touch the other time stream, which includes a TARDIS that their hands pass through.

    * Warrior's Gate also had characters walking through time streams (as well as use of another white void, a surreal garden, mirrors and guard robots--also the first we saw of a race of cat-people/catkind: the lion-faced, time-sensitive Tharils).

    * Prematurely aged characters also include the 4th Doctor aged 500 years in The Leisure Hive's Tachyon Recreation Generator (convincing old man makeup with a white beard--it helped that Tom Baker was starting to age by 1980--not to mention he looked emaciated and sick that whole last season), the 10th Doctor in The Sound of Drums/The Last of the Time Lords and fake!Rory in The Doctor's Wife.

    * A companion-meets-their-older-self paradox also occurs in Mawdryn Undead with the Brigadier. The Brigadier uses the paradox to kill the immortal aliens who want to use the Doctor's remaining regenerations to die, which saves the Doctor, and in so doing, completes the timey-wimey of his younger self losing his memory for 6 years.

    Last edited by NileQT87; 11-09-11 at 11:10 PM.

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  18. #178
    Culture Slut Rosamunde's Avatar
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    Very interesting episode! Still dissapointed with the lack of discussion/thought given to Meldoy Pond: it makes everything feel hollow to me; but this was still an extremely enjoyable and clever episode. I was so dissapointed with last week's that I almost didn't want to watch it, but was delighted that I did. The story had a lot of emotional realism and was very interesting and cleverly structured. I thought Karen Gillan did a wonderful job of portraying the two Amys: she really captured both their resiliance and their fear and their panic and their love so powerfully. I was very taken with her relationship with Rory: it was very believable. I really liked how they've developed the relationship, from Amy so anxious on her wedding night to "Rory is the most beautiful man I know". The robots worked well too, I thought: the "This is a kindness" thing was really creepy. Amy tearing the hands off one and giving it a face was very callous and very sad at the same time. I liked that the Doctor seemed nonplussed by that. I also liked how cold he was to the older Amy: it seemed very realistic for him: he talks a lot about not being merciful, but you rarely see it, and it's interesting when you do. Overall, this was a very powerful and memorable episode. I know I'll watch it again.
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    Slayer Koos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NileQT87 View Post
    Rory just got a lot of points for saying that the Doctor is trying to turn him into him. Great moment, as was the one where he said that the Doctor makes his companions dangerous to themselves because they want to impress him. Arthur is wonderful.
    Especially the first one was very good and very true. Very important lesson for the Doctor I'd say.

    I kind of had hoped that the old Amy would have lied instead of the Doctor. That she would have sacrified herself in the end for her younger self to break the loop. But than the above mentioned remark by Rory wouldn't have happened.

  20. #180
    The Dark Avenger NileQT87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koos View Post
    Especially the first one was very good and very true. Very important lesson for the Doctor I'd say.
    Indeed, it's an undercurrent through the whole series (very much related to Davros' comment in Journey's End that the Doctor turns his "Children of Time" into weapons) that the Doctor manipulates his companions into warriors. I get the impression that a lot of Classic Who fans really didn't want to hear that about the Doctor, but it was true even then.

    ...And not just the ones who already were rather violent already like Jamie, the Brigadier, Leela and Ace (none of whom were exactly overeducated geniuses to the point of frequent mockery by the Doctor and others--Jo also had some cruel things said about her intelligence, including by the Doctor, and it was such an important character trait that RTD wrote Jo as asking Eleven if he thinks she's dumb in Death of the Doctor--and Rose similarly had an inferiority complex regarding her education and class, as did Donna about her vapid life prior to the Doctor) that did it pretty unquestioningly (Leela and Ace actually had to be told to stop killing people/blowing things up left, right and center by the Doctor, even though he used them just for that purpose--having "an Ace up [his] sleeve"--Jamie's psychology was more of a protect/rescue expectation that was manipulated for that purpose, whereas others were used blatantly to do things the Doctor wouldn't do himself--the Brigadier states just that in Battlefield, where the Brigadier has a gun pointed at Mordred's head, while Seven won't kill him with a sword--and again when the Brigadier, who sees himself as expendable, knocks out Seven to go face the Destroyer, himself), but even the really non-violent ones who were forced into it like Ian, Sarah Jane (it's funny that she keeps saying to the SJA kids that she doesn't like guns, even though she was shooting a rifle when she was a young thing in The Pyramids of Mars--the Doctor's hypocrisy rubbed off on her) and Rose.

    Rory is one of the most aware companions when it comes to knowing what the Doctor does to his friends. He forces the Doctor to acknowledge a lot of things he hates about himself.

    The Doctor has so many rules because he isn't a good man. He does cruel things every day because he can only prod events in very slight ways, even if how history must remain is cruel; some of his companions have a lot of trouble with that (such as Barbara trying to get rid of the Aztecs' barbarism in order to save their race from destruction, but being told by the Doctor that she can't be allowed to alter that history). Jamie, much like the family in The Fires of Pompeii, was living on borrowed time, as he was meant to hang at Culloden with the rest of his kin. The Doctor tweaked his fate because Polly requested that Jamie come with them in order to save him from history. There's a great Big Finish audio adventure called The Glorious Revolution where Jamie nearly alters his entire existence and never meets the Doctor by changing history so that Scotland wins in 1688. It's Jamie's Father's Day (Rose nearly doing the same to her own personal history--I've noticed a trend in Jamie's audio adventures taking a lot of cues from Rose's character development, as seen in my sig, as they're the characters who have seemed the most adamant about never leaving the Doctor willingly).

    The parallel, of course, with Jo and Sarah Jane is that, while both seemed to be in love with the Doctor (and Jo nearly spells out the obvious in The Green Death--no School Reunion retcon required--where she says she likes her future hubby because he reminds her of a younger Doctor--and that's to the Doctor's face after he's actually shown jealousy when Jo is proposed to several times previous and seems to have been dating half of U.N.I.T.!--LOL @ Jo dating Cpt. Yates, who is either gay or bi), Jo gave up on him and moved on, while Sarah Jane spent the rest of her life never finding love and never moving on because she was waiting for the Doctor to come back to her. The Doctor had to learn from his mistake with Sarah Jane and make it so that Rose didn't do the same. Jamie, Zoe and Donna didn't even have the option of remembering wanting to stay with the Doctor.

    You can already see the cracks where Amy and Rory are going to end up leaving the Doctor. Unlike the unendingly loyal Jamie, Sarah Jane, Rose and Donna that must be taken away by tragic force or left behind against their wills (very much all characters who would have tried to stay "forever"--Jamie actually promised Ben and Polly when they left that he'd look after the Doctor), Amy and Rory have become very disillusioned with him. Like the couples before them (Ian/Barbara and Ben/Polly), they seemingly will choose to get on with their normal lives (which brings us back to the Melody situation).

    The Dominators is the story where you have a group of people (the Dulcians) who are pacifist to the point of accepting their own domination and becoming willing slaves (where you get Jamie's Jacobite rebel side completely at odds with and completely unaccepting of domination, paralleling Scotland's repetitive history of lost fights for freedom against the English). And the Doctor doesn't even bother playing the pacifist with the Dulcians; they're down to four people--with Cully, a renegade, ostracized Dulcian--who will even fight the Dominators and Quarks. Ian actually has to anger and force a pacifist Thal to hit him so that the Thals will fight back against their Dalek oppressors on Skaro (The Daleks). The next time you see the Thals after Ian's action, you see a force of them fighting the Daleks on Spiridon (Planet of the Daleks); one even comments on how he's not fit to be a fighter (though Taron, played by frequent DW guest actor Bernard Horsfall, is decidedly unThal-like). The Doctor's pacifism is an ideal he really doesn't live up to. The Gallifreyans are another pacifist race where their unwillingness to fight back (except for a few dodgy renegades like the Doctor, Master, Rani, Goth, Rassilon, Omega, War Chief, Monk, etc...--and all but the Doctor are villains--Susan and Romana being the Doctor's only Gallifreyan companions) nearly leads them to inevitable destruction in The Invasion of Time, where a manipulated Leela is charged with turning the ostracized Shabogans and fat, old, lazy, bureaucratic Time Lords in the Citadel into a warrior force against the Sontarans. It's not a surprise then that it's the Doctor who ends up killing his entire race; he's one of the few who could.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Deadly Assassin
    Spandrell: Four cold-blooded killings in one day.
    Four: Flea-bitings, Spandrell, flea-bitings. Things will get a lot worse.
    Spandrell: Not here in the Time Lord capitol.
    Four: Well, it might rouse some of them from their lethargy. They live for centuries and have about as much sense of adventure as dormice.
    Quote Originally Posted by The War Games
    Time Lord 1: You have heard the charge against you, that you have repeatedly broken our most important law of non-interference in the affairs of other planets. What have you to say? Do you admit these actions?
    Two: I not only admit them, I am proud of them. While you have been content merely to observe the evil in the galaxy, I have been fighting against it.
    Time Lord 3: It is not we who is on trial here, Doctor, it is you.
    Two: No, no, of course, you're above criticism, aren't you.
    Time Lord 1: Do you admit that these actions were justified?
    Two: Yes, of course, I do. Give me a thought channel and I'll show you some of the evils I've been fighting against.. The Quarks, deadly robot servants of the cruel Dominators, they tried to enslave a peace-loving race. Then there were the Yeti, more robot killers, instruments of an alien intelligence trying to take over the planet Earth.
    Time Lord 3: All this is entirely irrelevant.
    Two: You asked me to justify my actions, I am doing so. Let me show you the Ice Warriors, cruel Martian invaders, they tried to conquer the Earth, too. So did the Cybermen, half creature, half machine. But worst of all were the Daleks, a pitiless race of conquerors exterminating all who came up against them. All these evils I have fought while you have done nothing but observe. True, I am guilty of interference, just as you are guilty of failing to use your great powers to help those in need!
    Time Lord 1: Is that all you have to say?
    Two: Well, isn't it enough?
    Time Lord 1: Your defence has been heard and will be carefully considered, but you have raised difficult issues. We require time to think about them. You will be recalled when we have made our decision.
    Tegan, in particular, had enough of the death and violence and said so as the reason she left--"It's not fun anymore." Same with Steven after witnessing a slew of companion deaths (The Daleks' Master Plan), notably where he's arguing with Bret Vyon and the Doctor about saving Katarina and the Doctor won't save her... Much like how the Doctor wouldn't save Adric because the explosion his death causes is a fixed point in time (the event that wipes out the dinosaurs and makes way for humanity). Donna echoed Tegan and Steven's sentiment in The Fires of Pompeii when she was begging him to save someone (and we get a glimpse of that reluctance, even though Ten was more likely to break the rules out of emotionalism than Eleven--most notably in that story and The Waters of Mars).

    It's good to note just how violent the Doctor, himself, was when we first met him (the oft-mentioned attempt to bash in a caveman's skull with a rock). That's one example of why seeing the Classic series (or trying to, even if you have to pirate it) is actually meaningful to the rest. He didn't start off an extremely hypocritical pacifist (The Christmas Invasion is so blatant on his hypocrisy, because he's actually proven to have been wrong about Harriet Jones in Journey's End--a repeat of the Brigadier in The Silurians, where the Doctor made a big show of being against him blowing up the Silurians in their cave who had just spent the serial killing humans), because he never was! A Good Man Goes to War was somewhat of a repeat of the message of Journey's End. Rory is sort of the voice of Ian with a dab of Davros here (LOL), the companion who is very aware that he's being used to fight, kill and protect for a manipulative character who does very dark things to his friends, despite the exterior becoming quite a bit more cheery than the First Doctor's first actions by the time you get to the Eleventh (though Eccleston's casting helped sell Hartnell's character roots for the new audience, and was somewhat a repeat of his character journey).
    Last edited by NileQT87; 11-09-11 at 09:22 PM.

    "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
    "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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