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Thread: Buffy 8.36 Discussion Thread: Full Spoilers

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    Quote Originally Posted by ubi4soft View Post
    "I don't like him. Nobody likes him! But I love him!" - Something Blue

    "I don't trust you! Nobody trusts you! But you have my heart!" S8 - #36

    What do you think will happen when the spell will be broken?
    Basically, i think that Buffy still hasn't woken up yet, fully, from the spell that Amy did to her.
    Maybe, somebody who loved Buffy could wake her up, but only someone who loves Buffy and Buffy loves him as well can really wake her up, physically and emotionally.

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    8.36

    Here’s my review.

    To start out, the opening exposition boxes for Angel and Spike say “Some time ago.” and so, we don’t know what the timeline is still.

    The flashbacks:

    The beginning stuff with Angel:
    It seems they are referring to stuff that a Season 8 reader wouldn’t know about unless he or she also read After the Fall . I don’t like that. It’s like when Buffy showed up in “Sanctuary” (A 1.19) and looked like a bi)ch because anyone who hadn’t watched Buffy wouldn’t know what Buffy was talking about or where she was coming from.

    About the “chosen” and “goofy little cheerleader”: So, now Buffy’s “goofy”? Cordelia was the goofy one and Cordelia was the one that had to deal with Angel being chosen by the Powers That Be and all that happened to her and them on Angel . How would the idea of being “chosen” at all relate to Buffy in the context the dog or Angel was talking about? And, really in After the Fall , it was made pretty clear that Cordelia was the love of Angel’s life and yet all of a sudden it’s Buffy again. And, Cordelia was a goofy cheerleader as well.

    Angel says “like we never lost the war.” So, WTF is he talking about? Were others helping Angel in his war? Who would they be?

    And Wesley said Angel needed a shrink. He’s still alive, has been alive?

    Nice touch Angel being able to easily lift a letter of the Hollywood sign. Not sure if normal Angel could have done that. And the plane was Oceanic? Is that a Lost reference> And I guess the girl that thanks Angel was purposely supposed to look like Buffy.


    Angel was just given a ton of power while Buffy had to slowly get it as Slayers were being killed and she was beat up by Angel and on the run for her life against the US Military.

    Spike’s stuff:
    Spike is King of some place now. He was running from some people or things. And he’s back to wearing his “Spike” outfit. He like Angel, went through a dimensional tear or something. Though it’s assumed long after Angel did as we never heard of news of a flying spaceship before in Season 8.

    More Angel stuff:
    The explanation that people would be after Buffy and Angel would buy it is kinda telling. Angel just believes whatever a higher power – or something he thinks is one – tells him. And from previous issues, the only reason why anyone in the US Military is against Buffy and Co. is because Angel’s man Voll made them against her. Who exactly are these enemies that could threaten Buffy and Co.? Pretty much only powerful governments could be at all a threat. And what Angel did as Twilight is what was killing Slayers. Most likely few would even know about them until someone like Angel told them. And Angel got the whole world against Buffy and Co.

    And “she cannot be distracted by her feelings for you”? She could assume he’s Angelus and kill him or try to kill him, is that what is supposed to be garnered from this? So far, Angel’s being sold by: You now have awesome powers, Buffy will have awesome powers, and you get to be with her in a happy place that no one else currently living with be in.

    Spike stuff:
    So, by now, people know about the word “Twilight”?

    Nice touch in Spike’s room on the ship: He had an Ok magazine. Also, Harmony has her own magazine line.

    In all, we get no sense of how long Spike’s been back. It could have been hours or less or months.

    The present:

    Angel’s says he doesn’t trust Spike, that’s it’s convenient when Spike showed up, and that Spike has an agenda?
    They are piling on more badness on Angel. Spike just saved the people that Angel was happy to let die so that he can be in a happy place with Buffy. It’s convenient? Sure, the timing is curious. And Spike has an agenda? Well, it’s pretty certain that it’s not ending the world.

    Also, what exactly happened after Spike showed up? Buffy and Angel scrammed and flew away ASAP?

    Buffy tells Angel that she doesn’t trust Angel but he has her heart, that’s she’s still happy about their having sex, and then she says: “You gave me perfection and you gave it up.” Either Joss didn’t read the last issue (8.35) or this is an obvious sign that Buffy’s still under some great influence. Angel didn’t try to give anything up. Buffy left Twilight and Angel decided to follow.

    Something extremely important: Angel can still be affected by magic. So, really Willow or Amy or someone could simply teleport Angel into another dimension or inside the sun and Angel would be killed. The powers aren’t all that great if Angel can still be hurt or killed by magic.

    Buffy wants Angel to save a lot of Slayers and says he “can make up for a lot of damage”. So, Buffy knows that he’s done a lot of damage yet is pretty okay with it. And now it seems that she believes that HE’s the one that got them out of Twilight instead of the fact that he wanted the whole world to be destroyed so that Buffy could be with him in a happy place and that it’s Buffy who insisted on leaving and Angel simply didn’t want to be alone and followed her out.

    It’s important that even after the sex, the happy place, and all the things Buffy said about his having her heart, his being “the love of her life” and the “guy [she] would live it with”, Angel’s still very insecure about Buffy’s feelings for Spike. In this context, the whole reason why Angel did all this Twilight stuff is to get Buffy to a place where’d she’d want to stay with him and allow the whole world (and Spike in it) be destroyed. And given that Spike was in some other dimension, even if the entire world was destroyed, Spike would have actually still been around.

    After Angel leaves:
    When Buffy comes in the ship and starts angrily marching towards Spike, he doesn’t even turn around in her direction or heed her at all.

    So, Buffy tells Spike, “sorry I haven’t been in touch”. What does that mean exactly? She knew he was in Los Angeles? Spike actually did contact her at some point? Spike was in LA and didn’t seem to contact her once in Angel season 5, then he was in Hell-LA where he had a lot of sex and two quasi-girlfriends (at least one of which he had a lot of sex with), after that he did the stuff in Spike: Asylum and whatever after. When did she know? Did she know?

    And exactly why is Buffy so pissed at Spike? I’d be nice if Spike told her to f_ck off and he’d tell Faith what he knows, or Giles. That’d put Buffy in her place a bit.

    Why wasn’t Giles with Buffy, Willow, and Faith?


    Overall, this issue was pretty much about:

    More copping out for why Angel became Twilight and that Angel’s not a bad guy.
    Buffy affirming Angel’s the man for her and not Spike. And then her later being somehow angry at Spike, chewing him out, and demanding to immediately tell her what he knows.
    Spike doesn’t seem into Buffy at all anymore.

    Whether Buffy knew Spike was back? Maybe? But she never contacted him because she was too busy leading an army? Unless she knew about Spike in the moments after asking Xander out and fighting and then having sex with Angel, that doesn’t make a lot of sense. Or it means that after her dream in “Always Darkest” at some point she knew Spike was back but by that point she was no longer interested in him and now wanted to be with Xander. And of course that she’s still interested in Angel. And that she knew where he was an could contact him. But Spike could have been in another dimension.

    We still don’t know whether Buffy is under an influence. If she is, she was raped. If not, she’s pretty f-ing evil or simply doesn’t mind that Angel is responsible for beating her up, putting Satsu in a hospital, the deaths of 100s of Slayers, and her having to run for her life because all the humans hate her and the Slayers, and that Angel wanted Buffy to stay with him in Twilight while the world was destroyed and her friends were killing within minutes.

    Also, why wasn’t anyone balling Buffy out? She just stomps in and chews out Spike and Faith only makes a little snark to her and Willow doesn’t do anything? And why were Willow and Faith elsewhere when Spike was explaining to Buffy what was going on? And why is Spike so casual with Buffy? She had sex with evil Angel and she doomed the entire world because of that.

    And why was Buffy feeling sad, hugging herself, tearing up, and then needing Willow to comfort her? Because Spike told Buffy that she did a bad thing and endangered the world? Didn’t she already know that? And if it’s somehow about Spike not seeming to have any romantic feelings for her and is simply there to help them save the world, why did she go for the being angry with him and balling him out route to meeting him for the first time since “Chosen” (7.22).

    And Joss better have a good reason why the Master is alive.

  3. #523
    Slayer MikeB's Avatar
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    This is a fairly long post and so didn't want to edit my above one to include this.

    For the Master being there: Maybe Dracula’s powers of being able to be whole again from being dust was somehow transferred to the Master? Maybe the Powers That Be put him back together.

    Why Angel didn’t seem to care that Connor would have died if the world was destroyed: The Season 8 ‘audience’ may not even know about Connor, the last issues and 8.36 were fast-paced enough and maybe it was too much to devote room to explaining Connor, and, perhaps Angel now prefers Buffy to Connor. Buffy ’s done this before with Cordelia and did it again in 8.36. Over on Angel Angel had professed throughout season 4 that Cordy was his true love or whatever yet in “Chosen” (7.22) Angel acts as if he’s been waiting for Buffy the entire time. After the Fall made it more clear and solid that Cordy was the love of Angel’s life yet in 8.36 Angel acts as if Cordy never happened.


    I decided to simply post more thoughts on the issue having read threads from various sites. This will save a ton of time not having to copy and paste entire discussions into Word and reply to each post. And it seems similar stuff is discussed again and again on threads.

    To start:

    Buffy/Angel sex and lovey-dovey stuff from Buffy to Angel reminds me of “Something Blue” (4.09). Imagine what the reaction would be if in “Something Blue” Buffy was actually having sex with Spike and assume that most the audience believes that Spike wanted Buffy at this point. It seems that they simply wanted an excuse to show ‘Bangel’ sex and love speeches. But in “Something Blue” (4.09) even though it was a spell, everything that happened in it – besides Buffy and Spike actually being that couply and lovey-dovy – came true. I can’t see Buffy actually doing Angel and spewing such words of love to a guy who’s acting pretty much exactly like Angelus. And nothing else can really be told about this other than – hey, Buffy would rather have sex with Angel than no one and Buffy still loves Angel. We already knew both. And did Buffy feel ‘raped’ or ‘molested’ in “Something Blue” though? Apparently not. She already seems to be feeling guilty by the end of 8.36. I pretty much equate what Angel did to if Xander took advantage of Buffy in “Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered” (2.18). Maybe a tiny part of Buffy was attracted to Xander but she wouldn’t have had sex with him if she wasn’t under a spell. The same – I hope – applied for Buffy when she had sex with Angel.

    Back to 8.36 and the Buffy/Angel interaction: it reminds of “Chosen” (7.22) as well except this time Angel should be simply happy that Buffy didn’t call Willow over to turn Angel into something that Buffy could torture for information.

    I will say though, that we need to remember and acknowledge that Buffy was pretty miserable before Angel showed up. She had been extremely lonely for years – which makes ridiculous her not bothering to contact Spike if she actually knew he was alive and how to contact him – and had just been rejected by Xander – XANDER!! – for favor of her ‘fake’ sister. Then Angel comes by telling her he loves her, that their powers are their reward, she has sex with a guy for the first time since Spike, and she goes to a happy place and gets more loving remarks from Angel.

    So, perhaps if she had a boyfriend, wasn’t on the run for her life for a long time, 100s of Slayers didn’t die, etc. etc. etc., she wouldn’t have bought into Angel’s ‘nonsense’. At least as easily, influence or not. Perhaps Buffy needed to be that defeated and depressed and sexually needy in order for her to decide to have sex with Angel. Otherwise, why wouldn’t the ‘powers’ simply immediately give superpowers to Buffy as well as Angel. They thought Buffy wouldn’t have sex with Angel in that circumstance? Or was it so that Buffy would be more likely to stay in Twilight the world being so bad for her? But then her friends and sister were still alive. The whole thing is confusing and unnecessarily complicated, like all that needed to happen for Jasmine to be borne.

    Back to Buffy professing her love to Angel and Willow turning Angel into a frog! I’d have liked to have had Willow turn Buffy into a toad and somehow restrain Angel and torture him until he gives up why he did what he did. They were still in a ship that they know can kill the demons. There was no real need to be so lenient with Angel or Buffy. Spike could have given his information to Willow, Faith, or Giles. Why does he have to give it to the clearly compromised Buffy?

    Just now I realized this also showed both’s self-centeredness and egos. They both seem to think that Spike would even want Buffy after she had sex with Angel. I guess since Angel didn’t seem to mind too much that Buffy seemed like Spike when he kissed her in “Chosen” (7.22) that it wouldn’t be a dealbreaker for Spike that Buffy stinks of Angel?


    Joss certainly doesn’t put Angel and Buffy in a good light in 8.36. The obvious hero of the piece is Spike and Willow got a little gleeful moment when she turned Angel into a frog. And Faith called Angel a man-bi)ch and didn’t seem too happy with Buffy. And Spike, Willow, and Faith are all very popular characters who all obviously have a future in the Buffyverse.


    To step back a bit though: All of Buffy’s badness so far stems from her having sex with Angel and loving Angel even after all that she knows Angel did and the fact that Angel wanted her to stay with him in Twilight while the world was destroyed. If she is simply under some spell or influence and isn’t really in control of her emotions regarding Angel, then she’s still good.


    Angel has a far steeper hill to climb.

    Angel’s purposes for being Twilight were selfish. He’s sold on being Twilight with: You get superpowers; you get to be a leader and super important; you get to make Buffy have superpowers but first you get to be ‘Angelus’ and toy with her, mess with her mind, kill her ‘family’; and after all that fun you get to be with her in a better world.

    As for the Slayers, the only reason why anyone is against them is because of Angel.

    Harmony: Just let her go after “Not Fade Away” (A 5.22). And is possibly responsible for her getting people to be against Slayers and for vampires.

    Some in the US Military and US Government: Angels’ man Voll got them to believe that Buffy nuked Sunnydale and is a terrorist.

    His people are the ones that killed the Slayers. And, really, why was the Swarm necessary or Warren blowing up Buffy’s Scottish headquarters?

    Angel’s responsible for over 10% of the Slayers dying. Angel’s the only reason that the soldiers were against Buffy and Co. in the first place. And Angel made the Slayers’ lives far more dangerous because vampires could freely kill them and people would cheer. But if caught killing a vampire, people will be all for killing that Slayer.

    Who was going to take the Slayers out? The US Military is having a hard time enough with the Taliban and al Quaida. These are superpowered people with resources.

    We already saw on Angel that even souled Angel can still be a huge dou_che and do evil things.

    By this point, an appropriate reaction by Angel would be to dust himself. Angel pretty much has three modes: Do nothing to help the world and try not to hurt it too much, be evil to the point that you want the world destroyed so that you can be in a place you’d like more, or help a few people and save a few lives every year. For those using numbers games to try to justify what Angel did as Twilight, objectively they’d have to conclude that Angel should dust himself. His saving dozens or hundreds throughout his time of being ‘good’ doesn’t outweigh that if not for Buffy, Angel would have destroyed the entire world (twice: “Becoming Part II” (2.22) and in 8.35).


    I’ll point also out here that the ‘powers’ made a situation which Angel and Buffy staying in Twilight would destroy the world and either leaving Twilight would destroy the world. So Joss makes certain that Angel wanting to go to Twilight is wrong in the first place.


    The Buffy/Spike interaction:

    Their confrontation reminded of “Beneath You” (7.02) when Spike showed up at Buffy’s house. They even are talking away from the others. But this time, Buffy’s the one who’s done the bad things and Spike’s doesn’t exactly seem to want to be around her. He’s completely all-business and she’s completely all-business while in “Beneath You” she seems hurt that Spike’s calling her “Slayer” and acting as if they never had a relationship while in 8.36 Buffy’s the one acting as if they never had a relationship.

    Not only did the guy die in “Chosen” (7.22) after killing all the UbverVamps and somehow his death or whatever resulted in the Hellmouth being closed forever, but here he swoops in and saves the Slayers, and the humans and now they have a safe place to be in. Buffy’s gratitude seems to be being miffed that Angel had to leave because Spike showed up and has information that she may want.

    Spike may have somehow snapped Buffy out of her ‘influence’ for the time being; obviously being near Angel causes her to lose her senses.


    The other stuff:

    Was the plane real or something the ‘powers’ materialized: I simply thought that the whole plane thing was ‘materialized’ by the Powers or whoever.


    If the Shanshu is from W&H… anyway both are simply manipulating Angel if it’s the PTB that made Angel Twilight. Or whoever did knows how to get to Angel: Dangle a shiny reward in front of Angel and he’ll reach and grab for it.


    That “cheerleader” has always been used in the Buffyverse: Kendra, Darla, Drusilla in her After the Fall issues, and now the PTB. Wonder why no one uses drunken whoring lout with Angel?


    Who’s going to betray Buffy? Who is the closest and unexpected now?
    Willow has shown she doesn’t like what Buffy was doing with Angel and neither does Faith. Giles had been keeping information all this time. Buffy tells Angel that Spike has an agenda yet when confronting Spike she seems to believe he’s genuine. Xander or Dawn can’t exactly be too happy with her, so I’d say for now it makes sense that either Angel or Spike – or herself – is it. However in an actual fight, only Willow it seems could possibly take Buffy. If she could use magic on Angel she may be able to on Buffy. Willow could simply turn Buffy into something not threatening. We could have another fight like in “Grave” (6.22) except this time Willow simply needs to turn Buffy into something.

  4. #524
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    So after trolling thru tons and tons of *hate* on the boards for part 1 of the Season finale...I thought I would join in the fun and share MY thoughts on Last Gleaming and the season as a whole...

    First, it really disturbs me, both on the post and my local Buffy buds as well, the sheer hostility directed against Buffy in comic form. It just floors me that people seem wholly ignorant of the comic roots of the Buffy-verse, as well as Joss' unabashed love for and the influence of the medium on the work. For Zeus' sake, he has gone no record several times to say "Buffy is essentially Kitty Pryde of the X-Men"...a dynamic wonderfully exploited by Meltzer during Twilight when Xander asks Buffy if she can phase, and to which she responds "I don't see the appeal". Delightful fun. I do think the jump to comics has been wonderful for Buffy and it has simply been amazing to see what this 'show' can do when budget isn't an issue. It's been wonderful to see the 'show' become more international in a way, showing us different aspects/parts of the Buffy world that wouldn't have been possible on a Television budget. After the game-changing events of "Chosen", of course the scale would have to be bigger, and the stakes higher, after the mass slayer activation.

    Having said that, however, I do think the naysayers claiming that the stakes have gotten too big and that the immediate personal drama of the core cast has evaporated due to the scale is just plain wrong. Despite the massive cast/roster in season 8, and the multiple locations etc. the focus has been, without fail, on our core heroes. That hasn't changed. There are numerous wonderful, intimate character moments throughout the 'season' and it's just really astounding that people seemed to have missed them. I'm lead to the conclusion that these trollers simply didn't read the comic. Thematically, that thread is also carried thru. Even though the season started and progressively upped the ante, in terms of scale, stake, and breadth (from hey war vs. humans to ....oh my god let's create a new universe!), Joss and his writers I think have also progressively toned it down to focus on Buffy herself and the immediate stakes of what's going on. To me, the season has kind of gone from big bird's eye view (the universe is doing stuff!) to a very finely honed focus point, wonderfully delivered in Twilight, Part 4 (Don't you know me by now Angel? I never do what I'm meant for). That one line I think encapsulates why all the nay-sayers are IMHO wrong about the lack of immediacy this season. At the end of the day, despite the promise of bliss and utopia with Angel in a new universe of their making, Buffy chose her friends and her family, and I think wonderfully reiterates what to me makes Buffy so fantastically awesome as a character, heroine, and feminist figure: this girl doesn't let 'destiny' control her 'destiny', and in the final equation it isn't the 'big picture' that matters to her, its those people that she loves, and not some big master plan or fate. Whew...ok now onto Last Gleaming...

    Wow revelations galore here. While I think Joss and Allie did an 'ok' job meshing After the Fall with season 8...I'm still not wholly onboard with the chronology. But, I suppose that is a minor quibble. I'm still not wholly 'yey' with the notion of the 'universe' pulling the strings here...but the notion of Buffy/Angel being the next step in the evolutionary chain is an intriguing concept...BUT, if what is happening/happened to Buffy and Angel is only 'natural' why fight it? Can one fight the very 'laws' of nature itself? Interestingly enough, the universe doesn't seem wholly benign either. I got quite the heebie jeebies when it was talking to Angel via the dog and the stewardess. Of course, since Buffy is a metaphor for life stuff, one can indeed say that about the universe we are living in as well. Of course as I type this I'm reminded that is perhaps one of the greatest things about Buffy as a story: it constantly questions what is 'meant' to be and its heroine has a tendency to buck 'destiny' 'laws' and how things are meant to go. In a way Buffy saying 'no' to Twilight is quite reminiscent of her big FU to the council in season 3 or upping her game significantly to take down the First in season 7. Hmm yea I changed my mind. I like this concept.

    Spike's appearance is always welcome, and I absolutely adore the interplay between him and Buffy "no snark, no innuendos!"...Though again I wish there would be some explanation as to how he went from After The Fall to captaining the USS Bugs-R-US...but again a minor quibble. I also loved how he instantly recognized Angel in the Twilight 'costume' 'yup that'd be angel".

    Buffy's reaction to Twi/angel makes a kind of sense...I mean ok she did try to stake him upon the discovery that he was Twilight...and ok the universe was 'controlling' them and Giles did say that 'Twilight's influence is strong"...but I just hope there is more of an explanation/consequence for this in the wrap-up to season 8 other than the mild wrist slap buffy gives him or the brief frog transformation.

    Finally, am I the only one who thought ...'we don't know if that *really* is the Master' at the end of 36? This just can't be a simple ret-con...

    And Finally, finally, someone mentioned at another board that the Twilight symbol maybe the Sunnydale crater turned upside down, with the Seed of Wonder underneath it...which I think is an intriguing idea...and of course Buffy did say in "Long Way Home" that she thought the symbol looked like a 'frown turned upside down"...mmm intriguing...

  5. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix012 View Post

    Finally, am I the only one who thought ...'we don't know if that *really* is the Master' at the end of 36? This just can't be a simple ret-con...

    And Finally, finally, someone mentioned at another board that the Twilight symbol maybe the Sunnydale crater turned upside down, with the Seed of Wonder underneath it...which I think is an intriguing idea...and of course Buffy did say in "Long Way Home" that she thought the symbol looked like a 'frown turned upside down"...mmm intriguing...
    Watch the Dragon con interview with Scott Allie and Georges for these answers. Yes - this is really Master. No, the symbol means something else - at least that was implied.

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