Xander, The ZEPPO?

[omri]

Well... I dunno if most of you think it, but i am. Most of the time i find Xander useless.. I like him being in the show. but most of the minor episode he's just there. Making joks. So what do you think? Please share!

[holypotatoes]

I didn't like "The Zeppo" really at all. It was boring. Yeah I'm not the biggest Xander fan so maybe that's why. He got a lot better toward the end of the series but during the first couple of seasons I couldn't stand the boy/man. What made me truly dislike him was in "Dead Man's Party" when he just went off on Buffy. I was like "Oh hell NO he didn't!" *snapping fingers left to right in the air* Also it got really annoying having Xander freak out on Buffy about her being with Angel. It got old very quick. Therefore having an entire episode kind of revolving around him wasn't my cup of tea. :coffee: :D

[omri]

I didn't like "The Zeppo" really at all. It was boring. Yeah I'm not the biggest Xander fan so maybe that's why. He got a lot better toward the end of the series but during the first couple of seasons I couldn't stand the boy/man. What made me truly dislike him was in "Dead Man's Party" when he just went off on Buffy. I was like "Oh hell NO he didn't!" *snapping fingers left to right in the air* Also it got really annoying having Xander freak out on Buffy about her being with Angel. It got old very quick. Therefore having an entire episode kind of revolving around him wasn't my cup of tea. :coffee: :D

I think you got it wrong. Though i do hate the episode, it's not about it. It's about how Xander wasn't useful through out most of the series....
But yeah... you pointed out some very true points

[holypotatoes]

Sorry I wasn't positive if we were talking about the episode since in the title it said "Xander, the Zeppo?" or if it was the whole series throughout. But yeah Xander wasn't very useful when it came to fighting but he could fix a window in no time. :D Although Xander was the one who saved the world in S6 so I guess he wasn't completely useless. And in S7 the first knew that he was sort of important/useful since he took the time to hurt the one person that everyone had always protected which ended up shattering their group so I guess in S7 he basically was one of the problems and didn't help the matter, did it? Basically the moral of the story is he was sort of useful towards the end of the series whether it was for good or bad.

[Valyssia]

Well... I dunno if most of you think it, but i am. Most of the time i find Xander useless.. I like him being in the show. but most of the minor episode he's just there. Making joks. So what do you think? Please share!

You're right about Xander being pretty much a character for comic relief in the beginning, but as the show developed he became a very valuable thing. He was the horizontal line in the middle of the parabola that indicates the baseline. All of the other characters, because of their unique abilities arched around him. Buffy, Faith, Willow, Tara, Oz, Anya, Spike Angel/us, and in some ways even Giles were extraordinary...Xander was just a guy. You could meet him on the street and he'd never cause you a single moment's pause.

Allow me to me add...

Of course his reactions are extreme. He's Joe Normal...I may die tomorrow because I have no extraordinary ability to defend myself...reacting to a world of bizarre extremes. Imagine how you'd feel if you found out that one of your best friends, someone you care for, was dating an almost 300 year old vampire. Okay now stack on top of that the fact that this vampire who you're already a wee bit freaked by goes all hatchety murdery when he gets a happy. That's the baseline to the great love, great loss part of the story the Bangles seem so hung on.

Dead Man's Party was a...and you left us to try to do your job. Something that BTW we suck at... If I recall the episode correctly no one else really has the nerve to be that direct.

Val

[Anon]

Dead Man's Party was a...and you left us to try to do your job. Something that BTW we suck at... If I recall the episode correctly no one else really has the nerve to be that direct.Actually, both Xander and Joyce showed a lot of hypocrisy in Dead Man's Party. For example, Xander's remark about Buffy not being able to 'just bury stuff', because it's not like that's what he was trying to do when he went out of his way to avoid her in said episode.

The thing about Xander is that despite not having anything much to contribute, he still manages to be a valued member of the team.

[Jenni Lou]

I think classifying Xander as useless is unduly harsh. His character was meant to bring a balance to the show, imo. He's really the only one in the core bunch without an extraordinary ability--Giles included because of his vast knowledge of all things supernatural--and I think he is there to show that even an average Joe can be apart of the mission. He has his down times but hinestly, so do all the rest of the characters. I happen to like Xander quite a lot. In fact, he's my fave character in the s8 comic so far.

[omri]

I think classifying Xander as useless is unduly harsh. His character was meant to bring a balance to the show, imo. He's really the only one in the core bunch without an extraordinary ability--Giles included because of his vast knowledge of all things supernatural--and I think he is there to show that even an average Joe can be apart of the mission. He has his down times but hinestly, so do all the rest of the characters. I happen to like Xander quite a lot. In fact, he's my fave character in the s8 comic so far.

I kinda like him in season 8 also. But in all the minor episode with the theme of "every day in sunnydale" i find him quite annoying. His jokes, his personality are so annoying. And also he has this manipolative quality.

[Valyssia]

Actually, both Xander and Joyce showed a lot of hypocrisy in Dead Man's Party. For example, Xander's remark about Buffy not being able to 'just bury stuff', because it's not like that's what he was trying to do when he went out of his way to avoid her in said episode.

The thing about Xander is that despite not having anything much to contribute, he still manages to be a valued member of the team.

Hypocrisy? That's way harsh...neither one of them had any clue what Buffy was actually going through. Know why? She hadn't told them. So who's fault was it really?

Webster is our friend.

Val

[omri]

Hypocrisy? That's way harsh...neither one of them had any clue what Buffy was actually going through. Know why? She hadn't told them. So who's fault was it really?

Webster is our friend.

Val

But you figure that they would understand, right? I mean, it's not like her pet died... She killed the love of her life!

[KingofCretins]

They had no reason to think her killing Angelus was anything particularly traumatic for her because, again, they hadn't told her. Buffy was the *only* one with full knowledge of what happened, hadn't shared it, yet expected everyone to defer to her pain over those events.

I think it's ridiculous to call Xander useless. Is the character comic relief? A lot of times. But that stuff about him being the heart of the group, and the one who sees, that's not just being nice. It's consistently true throughout the series.

And, there are several times when he's the go to guy in the group.

Nightmares -- he's the one who manages to confront a fear long enough for the gang to figure out that they can.

Prophecy Girl -- saves Buffy's life, complete with 240 years of deadweight in tow.

Some Assembly Required -- saves Cordy's life by jumping through fire

Inca Mummy Girl -- saves Willow's life by confronting Ampata.

That's just starters, obviously. In Season 1 and Season 2, before they knew they were going to be elevating Angel to his own show, Xander was the other fighter in the group. And he wasn't bad at it.

[omri]

Im not saying that he is useless in ALL the episodes. I'm just saying that in some of them, he is just there.

[KingofCretins]

In some of them, Willow is. In some of them, Buffy is. Why is Xander singled out?

[tangent]

Prophecy Girl -- saves Buffy's life, complete with 240 years of deadweight in tow.

Thats a very good point. No Xander = no season 2. Xander does pull his weight in the struggle but not always in the most obvious ways. The thing id that he is, as has been mentioned the most low key member of the core four. He's still pretty core though. He might not be the best in fights but he does contribute and he comes up with the odd very good idea (the judge/rocket launcher springs to mind).

More than this though Xander is the beating heart of the team. As has been mentioned he is the one that keeps the team together, that knows dark willow enough to get through to her, that gets Buffy through her uncertainty in the freshman, that understands Dawn. Despite his affectation of goofiness the guy has a happy knack of being able to say the exact right thing at the exact right time.

Also i think Xander is necessary to throw contrast on the other characters. Everybody in a show having some kind of special power or knowledge would actually get pretty old prety fast if you have nothing to remind you that these abilities are special, that they are not the norm. Xander is the one that does this, the one who shows us just how special the others actualy are.

[omri]

In some of them, Willow is. In some of them, Buffy is. Why is Xander singled out?

Cause when he is he's also annoying. I'm not saying that to piss off Xander's fans. That is really what i feel.

[Anon]

Hypocrisy? That's way harsh...neither one of them had any clue what Buffy was actually going through. Know why? She hadn't told them. So who's fault was it really?

Webster is our friend.

ValThey didn't even try to find out, but if you look at my example, that's not really relevant. Joyce is the chief one at fault there with her 'I know I kicked you out of the house but I didn't want you to listen to me.' attitude.

Also, even if he didn't know the particulars about Buffy sending Angel to hell, he should have known better than to compare what happened between them to the everyday break ups that occur between teenagers.

On top of this, given that he hadn't made any effort to find out what Buffy was going through, and given some of his other comments, calling Buffy stupid and selfish for running away like that was a bit rich of him.

I think it's ridiculous to call Xander useless. Is the character comic relief? A lot of times. But that stuff about him being the heart of the group, and the one who sees, that's not just being nice. It's consistently true throughout the series.Xander isn't useless but he's nothing special. As for being annoying, I'd say that he is fine most of the time, so long as everything is going smoothly for him. The second he hits a rough patch, that changes drastically.

[Sosa lola]

Check out this link: http://www.boilsandblindingtorment.com/xandergreatness.htm


1. Grave

The most obvious, of course, would be the now infamous yellow crayon scene. Ignoring his miraculous arrival on the bluff (I thought he ran into the beam of evil that Willow was shooting at the phallic symbol, but I have been reassured that he actually seems to jump up out of the beam in slow motion), Xander threw himself in front of this destructo-beam. With no weapons and no common sense (some might argue), he talked Evil!Willow's hair from an angry black to sad red. Thanks Xander!



2. The Zeppo

He may have hung with zombies, he may have tried to use a tasty car to get some action and he may have put up with Cordelia's crap, but Xander Harris knew what to do when it came right down to it and saved his friends' oblivious asses. Sure, the friends that were up in the library fending off the lame Hellmouth, so it's not like they weren't doing their part. But they spent the entire episode talking down to the Xandman, when without him they would have been nothing more than little pieces of schmuck bait all over the library carpet. And did they say "thank you"? No. Sure, that's probably because Xander never told them, but still…Bitches, man. [Well, Faith kind of thanked him...]


3. Prophecy Girl

Angel, panting heavily and attempting to look stylish in a velvet blazer, had no breath to give Buffy after the Master dropped her in a puddle. But Xander? He who had been turned down by Buffy in favor of a dead guy? He who was then refused by Willow? Did he carry a grudge? Hell no, he got right to that mouth-to-mouth and saved that ungrateful chick's ass.


4. Inca Mummy Girl

Sure, he made one of many mistakes in the love department and fell for a demon, but who offered up himself to save Willow? That's right, folks, that would be our very own Xander Harris. And wasn't that pretty damn nice of him? I mean, he could've been sucked into a mummy! A mummy! There are no hot chicks laying around, waiting for a hot mummy to come along! (Actually, we're not sure on this….he would, technically, be dead. And we all know how a certain Slayer digs the dead ones…)





5. Halloween

As Private Harris he kicked ass and didn't bother to take names. You go boy!


6. The Freshman

Buffy, depressed and ignored by Willow and Oz, wandered to the Bronze, ready to give up and just let Sunday kick her ass, when Xander found her and promptly inflated her ego by employing the phrase that didn't catch on as well as Joss had probably hoped: What Would Buffy Do? (Hey wait... I thought the phrase was What Would Buffy Wear?) We love him.


7. In The Harsh Light Of Day

Did he run when an invincible Spike attacked Buffy in broad daylight? Hell no. Sure, he got his head kicked in, but he did it like a man.


8. Where the Wild Things Are

Against all odds, Xander fought his way through a possessed frat house and went where no man has ever wanted to go--Riley's room. With no concern for his own safety, he bravely interrupted Buffy and Riley's continuous, evil sex. Let's hope he got hazard pay.






9. Innocence

Hello, who do you think came up with the idea for the rocket launcher? You think that was Buffy? Pfft. She may be the Slayer, but she wasn't turned into a military man on Halloween, no way, no how.


10. Lessons

Swallowing his pride and entering the girl's bathroom, Xander found the talisman and smashed it to teeny tiny bits, making all the ghoulie people go away. Yay Xander!



11. Go Fish

The episode may have sucked, but those not-so-scary boys in the recycled reptilian demon outfits were looking to snack, and Xander came just in time to save her from being fish food. He also put himself in the line of danger by joining the swim team. He had to wear a speedo. That shouldn't be taken lightly. Many of us are still thanking him for it.


12. When She Was Bad

Xander was gentleman enough to put his macking on Willow on hold to jump between a vampire and our little crackwhore-in-training.


13. The Prom

Ignoring the fact that this was one of the lamest episodes ever, and blocking out the memory of the umbrella award, let's just remember that Xander bought Cordelia a prom dress. We don't know how he got the money, and we don't want to. (Well, I just like to imagine that this is when he learned how to earn those dollars in his waistband.)


14. Replacement

Our man Xan pushed Buffy out of the way and got Toth'd. He was willing (once again, might I add) to sacrifice his life so that Buffy would be spared. Oh Xander, you're so sweet.



15. Innocence

When the adults wanted to hide, Xander wanted to go search for Buffy, his personal safety be damned. We like to think he would still be this brave even if Buffy wasn't so hot.


16. Killed by Death

Forgetting for a moment that he's a lowly mortal, Xander stood up to Angelus in the hospital waiting room, denying him access to sick Buffy and filling the hospital with enough sexual tension to spawn thousands of fanfics across the country. And later, who followed his lady fair when she went to slay the Freddie Krueger wannabe? Her knight in slacker clothes, that's who.


17. Some Assembly Required

Not yet up to groping status with Cordelia, Xander nevertheless jumped through the fire to go after Cordelia when the Frankensteinish monster left her strapped to a table. Everyone else just stood there going "ooh, scary fire!" and he just ran right in, with no concern for his own personal safety. And this was before he even thought Cordy was hot. At least, before he thought it out loud.


18. The Harvest

Even though he was only 16 and just found out about vampires, he went with Buffy to save his friend, Jesse. She was the slayer. He was just courageous. Unable to save Jesse, he ended up staking him by the end of the episode. Sure, it wasn't a world-saving maneuver (and he didn't actually do it on purpose), but it was still pretty damn brave.


19. The Pack

Even though it may have been partly Xander's fault that Willow's life was in danger, when it came right down to it, and the hyena had been exorcised from his body, Xander rushed the psycho with the knife and saved the life of the woman who's heart he would one day crush. If she wasn't gay.


20. Anne

Picking up the slack Buffy left, Xander took the moniker NightHawk and went out patrolling nightly with the rest of the underaged crew, keeping the streets and graveyards of Sunnydale safe. Sorta. But he tried, dammit.


21. Lover's Walk

Who threw himself at Spike? Oh, that's right, Xander. And what did he get for his troubles? Knocked out and held prisoner, that's what. Oh, and Willow kissage, but really, that didn't do him much good in the end.

22. Him

Proof that the saving just keeps coming. Who actually took action and found out what the spell was all about? And who stopped Willow just in time? And drove Spike to the school to stop Buffy? And got Buffy to the train tracks in time to save Dawn? And formulated the brilliant and complicated plan to end the spell? Oh, that's right. It was Xander. Again.


23. Never Leave Me

Oh, and proof that his no-super-power-in-sight self is still out there risking his life for others, he whacked that harbinger and saved Dawn's life (looking damn hot while doing it too). If only he could whack those harbingers out of my memory. Forever.

[omri]

Yeah OK. this site has some really really good points... But think of the time he did something stupid or was needed saving. there are both sides to the courter... he has some high points. but some very low points.

[redrevo]

Yeah OK. this site has some really really good points... But think of the time he did something stupid or was needed saving. there are both sides to the courter... he has some high points. but some very low points.
Yes, but everyone has those moments. Buffy, Willow, Dawn, Giles, Cordy... Everyone did some stupid things, needed rescuing or went through bad times, so there's no reason to single Xander out. At least half the times he needed help were not his fault in the first place.

[omri]

But most of the charecters are not manipualtive... And he's kind of annoying... that's why I singled out him...

[Valyssia]

But you figure that they would understand, right? I mean, it's not like her pet died... She killed the love of her life!

Gosh I hope that someone else got my point.

None of the core Scoobies knew that Angel had been reensouled when Buffy killed him. That was the major trauma. Yeah...killing Angelus was bad, but it wouldn't have hit her quite the same way that sticking a sword through Angel's chest does. She prolly would've been okay with her defendery, protectory thing if she'd just been killing a monster. And don't kid yourself, Angelus was a monster, even to Buffy.

Once that division is shown...all the core characters are ramped up...attitudes change.

Val

[omri]

Gosh I hope that someone else got my point.

None of the core Scoobies knew that Angel had been reensouled when Buffy killed him. That was the major trauma. Yeah...killing Angelus was bad, but it wouldn't have hit her quite the same way that sticking a sword through Angel's chest does. She prolly would've been okay with her defendery, protectory thing if she'd just been killing a monster. And don't kid yourself, Angelus was a monster, even to Buffy.

Once that division is shown...all the core characters are ramped up...attitudes change.

Val

Ofcourse i know Angelus was a monster! But even when he was a monster... She was that innocent for the hope of Angel returning. Angelus getting the soul back has a big part of the trauma but not all.

[Valyssia]

Ofcourse i know Angelus was a monster! But even when he was a monster... She was that innocent for the hope of Angel returning. Angelus getting the soul back has a big part of the trauma but not all.

It was the reason she totally flipped out...leaving town...playing Anne... I'd be willing to bet a week's wages that she'd have stuck around and tried to sort it out if that last little detail hadn't caused the snap. There's only so much a person can take...having her mom wig...not good, but not a total crusher... It's like stacking cards...that last card caused the pile to fall.

Leading into all the fun and excitement you had objection with.

Again...her friends don't have that detail. They have no clue what they are actually talking about. Giles has to finally fish the truth out of her by in effect lying to her about a spell he wants to do. The spell he's actually doing is helping her to admit the truth. Useful as things magickal go...

Freaking out when you don't have all the facts is very human. Xander and Joyce are both very human characters. They are flawed...that's why they are useful.

That's about enough of that.

Val

[vampmogs]

But most of the charecters are not manipualtive... And he's kind of annoying... that's why I singled out him...

When was Xander ever manipulative? I just don't see how he can be seen as a manipulative person? Xander has always been pretty straight forward about his opinions which is why some people dislike him.

I blame both Buffy and the Scoobies when it comes to their attitudes when she came back and why she ran away. Monster or not the Scoobies knew that Buffy had a connection with Angelus, he didn't trust her enough to believe she would kill him if she believed there was a chance of Angel coming back. It was evident that Buffy thought of Angelus still as Angel to some extent, to kill Angelus would be to kill any hopes she had left of having Angel back again. Really if the Scoobies can't figure that out, then they can't be very bright. Especially when Buffy leaves after obviously killing Angelus or the world would have ended, it really didn't take a genius to put the peices of the puzzle together.

On the otherhand Buffy did abandon her duties, come back and expect things to be the way they were. She can't expect everything just to revert back to normal, her friends have continued living for three months and for everything to be exactly the same just wouldn't be the case; she should have understood that.

Many people are at fault for the entire situation, the Scoobies should have tried harder to understand that Buffy obviously left to a reason, the reasons behind her leaving were fairly obvious to them and they should have been more sympathetic. Buffy should not have expected them to have all been the same but really I tend to take Buffy's side more. She had to kill the love of her life, wether she killed Angelus or Angel the scoobies should have known this. In fact to some extent Xander did, he states "I'm sorry your honey was a demon but most girls don't jump over boy troubles." Such a remark was just plain stupid on his part, he knew it was a lot more than just boy troubles and this stems from his dislike of Angel/us which shouldn't effect how he treats Buffy. She didn't particularly like Cordelia but she never treat Xander like crap for going out with her.

[omri]

When was Xander ever manipulative? I just don't see how he can be seen as a manipulative person? Xander has always been pretty straight forward about his opinions which is why some people dislike him.

.
When he didn't tell Buffy that Willow said to hold angel back cause she's pleaning to do the spell again and instead of that he told her that willow said "kick ass".. I don't see how it wasn't a manipulation.

[kana]

Well it depends on his intention. Manipulation doesn't have to always be a strickly negative thing. If his actions were mainly altruistic (seperate dicussion) then he's only trying to help Buffy. I'd agree that Xander is hardly manipulative as a general character trait. Yo'ud have to come up with a lot more examples.

For example, I think Angel makes decisions without consulting people and generally prefers to be in control. I'd could cite many examples of this to prove my point. However I struggle to find examples where Xander is manipulative. As Mogs said, he's mostly straight foward. Why not call Buffy and Willow homicidal maniacs. I mean Willow tried to destroy the world for crying out loud, call her evil.

[omri]

I did!~ at the time when she was... But she just lost the love of her life after they had just got together. and there was that "im addicted to magics" thing

[vampmogs]

When he didn't tell Buffy that Willow said to hold angel back cause she's pleaning to do the spell again and instead of that he told her that willow said "kick ass".. I don't see how it wasn't a manipulation.

You can take either viewpoint on this. I don't generally agree with what Xander did here because I think a part of it was because he just disliked Angel, if it had been Willow/Cordy/Buffy.. anyone else I think he wouldn't have made such a big decision. However, he was doing it because he felt he needed to for the world, whether I agree with what he did or not, I don't think he was being manipulative. Buffy has lied to her friends many times before, she was never manipulative.

I did!~ at the time when she was... But she just lost the love of her life after they had just got together. and there was that "im addicted to magics" thing

Nope I'm sorry but that is no excuse. Many people loose their loved ones but they don't go all homicidal and evil because of this. I understand her going after Warren, he could go to jail so I disagree with it but I can't say I didn't enjoy seeing him get a taste of his own medicine but there was absolutely no excuse for her turning violent towards her friends. They didn't do anything to Tara, turning on them was just Willow being power hungry and obsessive. As Giles states, "this isn't a hobby or an addiction this magic is inside of you now." Willow makes constant referrals to the power throughout those two final episodes, she enjoys using her power against Buffy because she is in the spotlight. It goes a lot further than simply wanting vengeance on Warren for what he did to Tara. It is to some extent understandable she went crazed after what happened but also inexcusable. You can't come down on Xander for doing something he felt was for the good of the world but make excuses for Willow when she turned evil.

[The_Narrator]

I think it also says something that while Xander has no magical or special qualities, his problems are still treated as important as the supernatural ones of the rest of the Scoobies, e.g. in S6, Buffy returning from 'heaven' and Xander leaving Anya at the altar carried a lot of weight both. Indeed, Buffy pretty much gets over her issues when she finishes with Spike and has her looking-after-Dawn revelation, whereas at the end of S7, we can still see that Xander loves Anya, searching for her in the collapsed school, and getting all quivering-jaw when Andrew tells him of her death.

He also brings the kind of observational skills that Spike has, that comes from being an outsider, of sorts (as he tells Dawn anyway, not being "in the spotlight"), and he reveals some uncomfortable truths now and again (as well as some rather nice go-team comments, esp. to Buffy and Dawn later on). Yes, he can frequently be wrong, many examples above, but he understands the situation, which is perhaps why he is trusted above everyone else to take Dawn away by Buffy in S7. It's when Xander isn't objective that he gets problems - not expressing his marital fears to Anya earlier, lying to Buffy possibly for selfish reasons re. Angel being ensouled in S2, and so on. But as stated above, Xander and Joyce are both very human characters. They are flawed... And all the characters experience their flaw-dom at some point (Giles trying to kill Spike, Buffy refusing to let Dawn die in 'The Gift', Willow going evil etc). It's their flaws that bind them really, since they rely on their compassion and humanity and forgiveness to get them through their human weaknesses, and after all, it's Buffy's human ties to the world that have made her one of the strongest Slayers ever.

[omri]

Ummm.... We are semi talking about Xander's flaws. Being there is not a flaw. It's just being there.

[vampmogs]

Ummm.... We are semi talking about Xander's flaws. Being there is not a flaw. It's just being there.

Huh? lol I'm confused :s

What do you mean by this? Sorry I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I just honestly don't understand what you mean?

[omri]

Leave it, lol. I don't understand it my self :)

[vampmogs]

Leave it, lol. I don't understand it my self :)

Haha ok :)

I do have a question for you though and this probably would be the best time to ask you it as the thread's conversation has reached a stale point. Would you feel Xander wouldn't be as much of a zeppo or useless if he had, had powers? Is that why you feel he was useless? Do you think he'd be more useful if he was supernaturally gifted like the others?

I personally liked the idea that he didn't have powers, I liked having someone regular still in the mix. Xander saved the world with his mouth.

Some however, seem to think he needed something else like magic or fighting ability to be a big contributor to the group, is this an opinion you share? Or was it more that you didn't like the way he conducted himself in the group in general? :)

[omri]

No, I don't. I probably wouldn't think he's a zeppo unless him being so annoying to me! He had his share in saving the world. But most of the time I feel he's just there making jocks. My opinion is changing from time to time on the charecters since every time my reality changes into something else/ situations are chaning so fast... so my relations to them also changes.... I hope that's making sense...
//Omri//

[vampmogs]

No, I don't. I probably wouldn't think he's a zeppo unless him being so annoying to me! He had his share in saving the world. But most of the time I feel he's just there making jocks. My opinion is changing from time to time on the charecters since every time my reality changes into something else/ situations are chaning so fast... so my relations to them also changes.... I hope that's making sense...
//Omri//

No I understand what you mean. My opinion constantly changes on certain seasons, episodes and characters of the show. Only a few things ever stay consistent with me.

On the note of Xander's jokes though, Anya brings up an interesting point in Entropy when she says Xander tells jokes to hide the fact that he is just a scared insecure little boy. It is pretty revealing of Xander why he feels he needs to joke, but I do think he learns later in the series when he should and shouldn't joke. :)

[omri]

Ummm yeah, I guess you could see it in season 7...

[Moscow Watcher]

Ummm yeah, I guess you could see it in season 7...

I particularly love Xander in season 7. (Then again, I love the season this season a lot).

There is a very poignant and revealing moment is NLM (one of my favorite episodes), where Xander' essence is revealed.

XANDER
(leans forward) Well, there was this one guy—there was this one guy, he, uh, he hurt her real bad, so she paid him back. She killed him, but she did it real slow. See first she stopped his heart, then she replaced it with darkness, then she made him live his life like that. But he still had to go do his job and see his friends and wake up in the morning and go to bed at night, but he had to do it all empty. Without anything to look forward to. Ever.

ANDREW
(unimpressed) Sounds bad. (drinks)

XANDER
Well, then she tore out his intestines and rubbed it in his face and took pictures of it.

ANDREW
(genuine this time) Oh, God.

He talks about himself as "one guy", unable to admit openly how much he loves Anya and how devastated he is. But no matter how he suffers he'll never say it to anybody. He keeps it inside.

Another great moment comes in Potential - also one of my favorite episodes

XANDER
They'll never know how tough it is, Dawnie, to be the one who isn't chosen. To live so near to the spotlight and never step in it. But I know. I see more than anybody realizes because nobody's watching me. I saw you last night. I see you working here today. You're not special. You're extraordinary.
Great moment. Moment of Xander's greatness.

There are other beautiful moments, and the more I rewatch season 7 the more I appreciate its subtle approach to characters development.

[omri]

Yeah,,, Well, I know Xander had his moments.. I think almost every charecter in teh show had her moments! But Xander sometimes can be so eww... so annoying.. I just can't overlook that.

[Moscow Watcher]

Yeah,,, Well, I know Xander had his moments.. I think almost every charecter in teh show had her moments! But Xander sometimes can be so eww... so annoying.. I just can't overlook that.

All of them are imperfect. Flawless crystal-clear heroes are boring IMHO. I love season 6 Xander because of the scope of transformation he undergoes. He falls so low - and then he soars so high! Ultimately he saves the world. But to arrive where he arrives in season 6 he has to suffer a lot. "She stopped his heart, then she replaced it with darkness," and Dark Xander isn't a pretty sight. But in the end he becomes stronger, wiser - and hopefully, he'll prove himself in season 8.

Look, I know it's useless to argue with a person who hates somebody or something, but, still, try to look at Xander with unprejudiced eyes next time you watch BtVS. I think you may appreciate him.:)

[Sid]

I always felt Xander was the most likable character on the show. I think if BtVS had a larger mainstream audience rather than the "cult phenomenon" that it was, this opinion would be shared by a lot more people. I'm not stereotyping all individuals into a group, but on the whole, I think within the Buffy fanbase you'll find people who gravitate towards a Willow, Buffy, Spike, Angel more so than a Xander.

Of course, Xander has his diehard fans too, but they're definitely in the minority to the above mentioned. Xander is the sort of character who if all of America watched the show, would be adored and revered even more than Buffy and Willow, in my opinion. ... Definitely Willow, anyway. The reasons I see a lot of people criticizing him (immaturity, being the funny underdog male, failure to stop telling jokes in times of crisis) are the same reasons why others would find him awesome.

Calling him "useless" is sort of missing the point on who he is supposed to be: an average human being who isn't a superhero nor a genius. Xander has contributed to his friends on several occasions, but it's really silly to keep score on whether or not he's on equal level with them. If you're going to judge him on that, then what's to stop me from saying that Xander succeeded in "the real world" more than Buffy and Willow? He had a job, was getting pretty high up in that job from the looks of things, and unlike Buffy, he can drive a car. Yes, yes, I know: Buffy is busy being the Slayer, because that's what she does, thusly making it unfair to judge her in that department. Irony!

I also wanna note that I really hate when some people endlessly bash what they construe as his biggest mistakes ("Kick his ass" more than anything else is the cause of a ridiculous amount of resentment), all the while handing out unconditional forgiveness and empathy to Buffy and Willow's errors, which I definitely think outweigh the fairly regular and average misjudgments that Xander has made. Xander never killed a man for bitter revenge or slept with a bloodthirsty demon whose idea of a good time is snapping necks. Cue the excuse train on how much heartache Buff and Willow were going through at the time. Meanwhile, Xander is an unpardonable "jealous" douche bag who should never be overlooked for not delivering Will's message and chickening out on his wedding ;).

[Anon]

I always felt Xander was the most likable character on the show. I think if BtVS had a larger mainstream audience rather than the "cult phenomenon" that it was, this opinion would be shared by a lot more people. I'm not stereotyping all individuals into a group, but on the whole, I think within the Buffy fanbase you'll find people who gravitate towards a Willow, Buffy, Spike, Angel more so than a Xander.

Of course, Xander has his diehard fans too, but they're definitely in the minority to the above mentioned. Xander is the sort of character who if all of America watched the show, would be adored and revered even more than Buffy and Willow, in my opinion. ... Definitely Willow, anyway. The reasons I see a lot of people criticizing him (immaturity, being the funny underdog male, failure to stop telling jokes in times of crisis) are the same reasons why others would find him awesome.

Calling him "useless" is sort of missing the point on who he is supposed to be: an average human being who isn't a superhero nor a genius. Xander has contributed to his friends on several occasions, but it's really silly to keep score on whether or not he's on equal level with them. If you're going to judge him on that, then what's to stop me from saying that Xander succeeded in "the real world" more than Buffy and Willow? He had a job, was getting pretty high up in that job from the looks of things, and unlike Buffy, he can drive a car. Yes, yes, I know: Buffy is busy being the Slayer, because that's what she does, thusly making it unfair to judge her in that department. Irony!

I also wanna note that I really hate when some people endlessly bash what they construe as his biggest mistakes ("Kick his ass" more than anything else is the cause of a ridiculous amount of resentment), all the while handing out unconditional forgiveness and empathy to Buffy and Willow's errors, which I definitely think outweigh the fairly regular and average misjudgments that Xander has made. Xander never killed a man for bitter revenge or slept with a bloodthirsty demon whose idea of a good time is snapping necks. Cue the excuse train on how much heartache Buff and Willow were going through at the time. Meanwhile, Xander is an unpardonable "jealous" douche bag who should never be overlooked for not delivering Will's message and chickening out on his wedding ;).Xander's fine most of the time, but when he strays outside of his comfort zones he can turn very nasty. That "Kick his ass" comment is simply the tip of the iceberg.

Buffy and Willow have greater power, and therefore greater responsibilities than Xander and of course they end up making more terrible mistakes, but having said that, I shudder to think what would happen if Xander did get super powers.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Xander is the sort of character who if all of America watched the show, would be adored and revered even more than Buffy and Willow, in my opinion. ...

Interesting, why do you think that? Because he's more relatable for more people?


I also wanna note that I really hate when some people endlessly bash what they construe as his biggest mistakes ("Kick his ass" more than anything else is the cause of a ridiculous amount of resentment), all the while handing out unconditional forgiveness and empathy to Buffy and Willow's errors, which I definitely think outweigh the fairly regular and average misjudgments that Xander has made.


It does seem unfair, doesn't it! I think it's probably because people can forgive grand crimes that they're unlikely to do themselves, like murder. But Xander's "crimes" are the sort of petty things we do ourselves. Grand sins have a certain glamour (murder, adultery) while the petty ones (being a bit manipulative) seem tawdry and dull.

[vampmogs]

Xander's fine most of the time, but when he strays outside of his comfort zones he can turn very nasty. That "Kick his ass" comment is simply the tip of the iceberg.

Buffy and Willow have greater power, and therefore greater responsibilities than Xander and of course they end up making more terrible mistakes, but having said that, I shudder to think what would happen if Xander did get super powers.

I don't think Xander would be terrible if he got super powers at all. Willow didn't have super powers but sought them out on her own and when she did she became power hungry. Who is to say Xander would have done the same thing? As far as we've seen he was the one that realises Willow has a taste of something big and understands what this means, there is nothing really to suggest he isn't as easily self aware about himself as he is about her. Besides, Andrew never had any super powers when he killed Jonathon, or Anya when she agreed to become a vengeance demon twice and yet they made terrible decisions all on their own.

Xander was the one to stick by Buffy's side through it all, he never went evil or betrayed her he was always extremely loyal to her.

I don't always agree with how Xander behaved. I think telling Faith about Angel was a very vindictive thing to do, and then to act as if it could have been Angel to hurt Giles towards Buffy, even though he told Faith it wasn't his style was equally as mean. Though as humans we can be mean sometimes when we are momentarily angry towards someone, doesn't make us a bad person.

[Anon]

I don't think Xander would be terrible if he got super powers at all. Willow didn't have super powers but sought them out on her own and when she did she became power hungry. Who is to say Xander would have done the same thing? As far as we've seen he was the one that realises Willow has a taste of something big and understands what this means, there is nothing really to suggest he isn't as easily self aware about himself as he is about her. Besides, Andrew never had any super powers when he killed Jonathon, or Anya when she agreed to become a vengeance demon twice and yet they made terrible decisions all on their own.Not the point. The point is how Xander would handle the responsibility that went with those powers, and where that would lead him.

There is a saying: 'The path to hell is paved with good intentions'. Xander's lack of any major responsibility in terms of demon hunting has allowed him to stay away from that path, but there are moments throughout the show where if he'd had superpowers, he could easily have gone down a much darker road and probably would have done.

[vampmogs]

Not the point. The point is how Xander would handle the responsibility that went with those powers, and where that would lead him.

But we have no idea how he would handle the responsibility so it would really just be based entirley on assumption? And given that Xander has always been the most loyal of the Scooby gang, one could make the assumption his powers wouldn't make him stray from Buffy or go down a dark path. Given that he never followed her orders because she was stronger than him, but because she was somehow he admired and respected as a person and a friend.

It was never about being a leader or the strongest for Xander, he admires people for who they are. He doesn't stop Willow by being a supernatural force, he does so by being a human and speaking to Willow as a human, and as I said respects Buffy not for her power but because she is Buffy. Gaining his own power wouldn't mean he would disrespect her any less, or become less loyal.

There is a saying 'The path to hell is paved with good intentions'. Xander's lack of any major responsibility in terms of demon hunting has allowed him to stay away from that path, but there are moments throughout the show where if he'd had superpowers, he could easily have gone down a much darker road and probably would have done.

Xander has a great deal of responsiblity so far in season eight, and we can presume has had a great deal of responsibility for a year and a half now and yet he appears to remain as loyal and away from that path as ever before.

I just think that this is all just assumption, and IMO assumption really can't compete against fact. Fact is, is that nearly everyone else Buffy associates with has turned dark and against her, Xander never did. He remained loyal and a good person.

[Anon]

But we have no idea how he would handle the responsibility so it would really just be based entirley on assumption? And given that Xander has always been the most loyal of the Scooby gang, one could make the assumption his powers wouldn't make him stray from Buffy or go down a dark path. Given that he never followed her orders because she was stronger than him, but because she was somehow he admired and respected as a person and a friend.

It was never about being a leader or the strongest for Xander, he admires people for who they are. He doesn't stop Willow by being a supernatural force, he does so by being a human and speaking to Willow as a human, and as I said respects Buffy not for her power but because she is Buffy. Gaining his own power wouldn't mean he would disrespect her any less, or become less loyal.



Xander has a great deal of responsiblity so far in season eight, and we can presume has had a great deal of responsibility for a year and a half now and yet he appears to remain as loyal and away from that path as ever before.

I just think that this is all just assumption, and IMO assumption really can't compete against fact. Fact is, is that nearly everyone else Buffy associates with has turned dark and against her, Xander never did. He remained loyal and a good person.My assumption is based on the way Xander handles things when he is in a difficult position. He has shown himself willing to go against Buffy on occasion, even when she is right. It doesn't matter much because he isn't in a position to do much damage, but, for example, if he'd had superpowers in Revelations things could have turned out very differently.

[Sid]

Interesting, why do you think that? Because he's more relatable for more people?

That's a huge part of it, but also the traits I mentioned earlier: "immaturity, being the funny underdog male, failure to stop telling jokes in times of crisis..." Overall, I've observed that those sorts of characters are put on a high pedestal in most popular programs and films; audiences thrive on seeing people like Xander succeed. I should note that I'm thinking mostly about seasons 1-3, since it's pretty likely that people would forget about him considerably after he became a character of much lesser importance in the later seasons. Hell, if BtVS had a massive mainstream audience, I think Joss might've been obligated to give Xander a much bigger role in the story.

Buffy and Willow have greater power, and therefore greater responsibilities than Xander and of course they end up making more terrible mistakes,

That sounds like a major cop-out IMO. It basically reads that those two live more important lives so it's acceptable for them to make more important mistakes. Which... sounds totally wrong to me.

but having said that, I shudder to think what would happen if Xander did get super powers

Xander reads comic-books, which confirms that he'd manage. Everything you need to know is pretty much jammed into issues of Spider-Man. Of course if Xander used comics as a tutorial, he'd be different from his friends since it'd mean he has morals ;).

Just kidding. Sort of.

[Anon]

That sounds like a major cop-out IMO. It basically reads that those two live more important lives so it's acceptable for them to make more important mistakes. Which... sounds totally wrong to me.Actually I was saying that the reason Xander never did anything that compared to their mistakes was because he was never in a position to do so. I also never said it was 'acceptable' for them to make such mistakes, more like 'inevitable' that they would do so.

You won't find me defending people who make big mistakes on the grounds that they have important jobs. However, the more important the role you play, the bigger your mistakes are going to be.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

That sounds like a major cop-out IMO. It basically reads that those two live more important lives so it's acceptable for them to make more important mistakes. Which... sounds totally wrong to me.

It sounds rather like saying "it's ok for the prime minister to do evil things because he has an Important Job to do".

When actually it's only ok for the Prime Minister to do evil things if he's played by John Simm and backed by a Scissor Sisters soundtrack. Then that's just cool. ;)

[selenspuffy]

IMO Xander wasnt zeppo at all..I mean yea it looked like sometimes it was. But if we count the small problems which Xander solved, it wouldnt look so small=) e.g in Lessons he was the one who saved Buffy, Dawn and the other students by breaking the talisman. Or the bigger nes like in Earshot, he saw the cook with poison and stopped everyone who were having lunch, we can add more to this list..he was sometimes sillt, but not useless.

[vampmogs]

I've always found it kind of strange that four years later in the series after the episode The Zeppo people are still asking if Xander is a zeppo. Wasn't the whole point of that episode to show that he clearly wasn't useless or a zeppo, that is why he smiles at the end when Cordy is giving him crap because he knows, and we are supposed to know, that he isn't useless. Xander's never been in the spotlight with his friends, but whilst he may have not been saving the world with them in that episode they would have all been blown to pieces if he hadn't stopped Jack's bomb.

So the fact that Buffy, Angel, Giles, Willow, Faith and Oz would have all been dead if it weren't for Xander kind of shows how important he is.

[holypotatoes]

Originally posted by vampmogs:
I've always found it kind of strange that four years later in the series after the episode The Zeppo people are still asking if Xander is a zeppo. Wasn't the whole point of that episode to show that he clearly wasn't useless or a zeppo, that is why he smiles at the end when Cordy is giving him crap because he knows, and we are supposed to know, that he isn't useless. Xander's never been in the spotlight with his friends, but whilst he may have not been saving the world with them in that episode they would have all been blown to pieces if he hadn't stopped Jack's bomb.

So the fact that Buffy, Angel, Giles, Willow, Faith and Oz would have all been dead if it weren't for Xander kind of shows how important he is

But if it wasn't for Xander going around and helping the one dead dude (Jack) bring all of his dead buddies back to life, there probably wouldn't have been a bomb in the first place. Especially since they wouldn't have gotten the supplies if it wasn't for Xander driving them to the hardware store. IDK, just some more input on the matter. :D

[bishopcruz]

Jack would have brought his friends back anyway, he HAD stolen a car already, and they probably would have made the bomb anyway. Xander was pretty much along for the ride, until he realized what was happening, and tried to stop them. Xander did not actually facilitate the building of the bomb in any important way, in fact, his actions delayed it by quite a bit.

[Ben]

Personally I see Xander as a core character, not just because he has been on the show since it first aired, but that he's the guy you can rely on and talk to, that he will always be there.

Such as when he stopped Willow, from raising that chapel, by telling her he loved her, his love conquered the evil out of Willow.

And personally I couldnt see the show without someone like Xander.

As the show needed a humans touch in a way, Giles was human yes but he was a Watcher, yeah thats human but he got a name, Xander is probably known as the goof-ball, and he's loved for it.

- I hope this made sence ... :(.

[vampmogs]

But if it wasn't for Xander going around and helping the one dead dude (Jack) bring all of his dead buddies back to life, there probably wouldn't have been a bomb in the first place. Especially since they wouldn't have gotten the supplies if it wasn't for Xander driving them to the hardware store. IDK, just some more input on the matter. :D

As pointed out, Xander actually did nothing to help in any of this. All of this was going to happen regardless of Xander being there or not, the fact he drove away with the stolen goods prevented Jack from blowing up the school earlier and then Xander arrived in time to stop it. It was more fortunate that Xander got taken up in the mess than unfortunate.

[tangent]

Going back to the main question of whether Xander is the Zeppo or not he actually is.

Not in the sense of being useless or unimportant but in the sense that, well, Zeppo was a Zeppo.

For anyone who didn't know Zeppo was the fourth member of the Marx brothers the straight man, the one without a comic persona. The thing about that though is that the marx brothers needed a straight man to react to their brand of comedy.

Although Zeppo would never get the laughs that Groucho, Harpo and Chico did his straight man gave the audience something to compare the lunatics on stage or film to. His presence gave an extra dimension to the rest.

Now to me this is Xander's role. He is the straight man to buffy's strength, Willows magic and Giles' knowledge. His presence emphasises just how special and different the others are. Even in season 8 Xander himself is keen to retain his ordinariness, adamanent he is not Bufy's watcher even though he seems to be pretty much running the slayer show by then.

If another 'gifted' character had replaced him or Xander himself had gained powers himself then i think the show would lose something of that contrast and i think that would be sad.

[Veverka]

If another 'gifted' character had replaced him or Xander himself had gained powers himself then i think the show would lose something of that contrast and i think that would be sad.

Aaaah. Nice one Mark. So the question becomes not 'Is Xander useful/useless', rather, 'what is Xander's usefulness all about?'

I think that's the core of the Xander character, anyway... he grounds the other characters and gives the viewers the human aspect that is relate-able in a non super hero kind of way. So often with Buffy, Willow, we can relate to the analogies that are drawn by their experiences, but not the experiences themselves, but with Xander we can. He's the human who makes human mistakes (eg. kick his ass), and the human who has human triumphs (reaching Dawn in potential).