Always & Forever - the Bangel-shippers thread!

[SaltyGoodness]

Well, if this is going to be our new home for the next while, what better way is there to make it feel homey than getting a B/A thread going!

It's been over two years since B/A shined & sparked on our screens, but they're still in my heart and mind today & the first thing I think of in coming over to this new temporary forum. Why? Well, where do I start!?

I love B/A because...

B/A are about love that goes on despite what physical distance may exist, what problems may arise. Even at the end of BtVS & of AtS, there was always the sense that they still loved and cared for each other and for me, the sense that they would grow together again. Watching their relationship & them mature on each of their respective shows, I really got the sense that as they grew up and became more mature, that they would come back together, that they were, in a sense, preparing themselves for each other again, realising how alike they are and how each understands the other like no one else ever could or will.

I love how Angel supports Buffy when her Mother dies in Forever, how Buffy saves him in Amends, how he returns in Chosen to help her out. So much water under the bridge by the end of S7 BtVS and yet here they are, working together again. :)

The little girl, terribly romantic part of me, loves the storybook, Romeo & Juliet aspects of their relationship - the angst, the love at first sight, the youth. I loved to cry with them during their tough times, I won't deny it - I could always sympathise with them so easily. I guess that should be credited to the amazing acting abilities of SMG & DB - they made their characters come to life.

Which neatly brings me to the next reason why I ship B/A: the on-screen chemistry between the two characters can not be beaten, in my opinion. I still remember hearing DB in 2004, at a convention I was very, very privileged to attend, describe that chemistry as "lightning in a bottle".

And I've blathered on enough :D! So, to get the party started, share why you still ship Bangel now & today...


PM me & I'll add you to the all-new club list below!


Proud Bangelshippers

SaltyGoodness
Bre
Salvation
Dana
~M@rie~
Peace
Sassy
Lexus
Risa
cheryl4ba
basakbangel
kanga
BangelFan2202
Boltmaiden

[Bre]

Along with our awesome love for Bangel, another fascinating aspect is how we express that love, what we do to let others know that, dammit, we love them! :D

One thing that I always found was an excellent way to express that love was fanfiction. A reason to use those characters, mold them into something you want, make them fall in love in another universe or have sex in our normal 'verse. It's all fantastic, this molding of reality to your own desires, and what better characters than the epic couple of Buffy and Angel.

My thoughts are pretty muddled right now, sadly. lol - Anyone else?

[SaltyGoodness]

Good point, Bre - I agree. Lovely to see that your first post on this board is in this thread :) , btw! In fact, Bangel were what prompted me to read fanfic in the beginning, and to write my very first fanfic a little over a year ago.

It's actually been quite an age since I watched BtVS - well, until the other day, when I sat down with a new special man-friend ;) to share with him the delights of Buffy for the first time. We started right at the beginning - so lovely to see Buffy really not liking Angel to start with, teh hee.

[Bre]

How weird that you say that because I just started watching Buffy from the very beginning myself. There's nothing like renewing love like watching something from the beginning, the epic beginning, lol, and seeing things you might not have seen, seeing relationships grow because you know where they're going to go, such as our precious Bangel. I always find it hilarious how different DB played Angel at the beginning, still trying to find his ground on the character, but if you think about it in a sense, it kind of makes a weird sense where their relationship is concerned.

And me as well, with the fanfiction. It was the first I read, the first I wrote, and that's how it will always be. For me, fanfiction is Buffy and Angel, and I find myself unable to write it for other shows, or even read it for that matter, because I'm still so invested in my fanfiction and that of others, mostly because their circumstances create so many different alternatives that are just delightful and delicious to read. :D

[Salvation]

I just started to read Bangel Fanfic & i love it bcuz it's carry on with their love journy after the both shows ended & what's important to me that the fanfics give them the chance to do what they couldnt do on the show,which is not fair at all.

Count me in please i love Bangel like crazy.

[vampmogs]

I wouldn't say I'm a Bangel fan but I respect their relationship for a number of reasons.

The most prominent being that Angel was smart enough to know that their relationship wasn't what Buffy deserved. I have the upmost respect for him and the decision he made (partly because he did it for my favourite character) which is one thing I like about Bangel.. which oddly enough is the end of it...

I also loved the whole Angelus/Buffy arc so through all the sappy drama, (which I love pays itself out in 'The Zeppo') I think Bangel had some great moments.

[Bre]

One thing that I did always adore about their relationship was the reality it was based on. A great thing about Joss was his knowledge about life and what it can do to you, and his imagination even didn't go that far because it would lose that special ground with the fans. A great point to bring up was the fact that Angel was smart enough to realize that being in Buffy's life all the time, forever, was just not going to cut it. For the first three years of their relationship, he was the mature one, the one that had seen the world, knew what it was doing and its consequences on those around him, especially Buffy, regardless of his feelings.

Plus, it spoke to his faultless love for her as well as letting Buffy spread her wings and grow, both as a person and in her relationships, which was great for the series as well as her.

The one thing that I never liked was how... silly, I guess, they made Angel in his fifth season, concerning Bangel. He seemed so immature and lackworthy while Buffy was the one who was mature and seemed to have grown and gone to different places. And sure, Spike probably had a lot to do with that. Angel was very much so like Angelus (or, actually, the other way around because demon from human, eh?) in his jealousy, but he lost that mature level that I loved in the third season, and the first season of Angel.

[KingofCretins]

I prefer Buffy/Angel to Buffy/Spike, but I don't *like* either of them. In the case of Buffy/Angel, I always thought it was kind of like Titanic. Two people in love with each other because the script says so. I've watched the flashback scene of Angel seeing Buffy, and didn't see her "holding out her heart for everyone to see" or whatever Angel said in "Helpless". In the case of Angel, I never figured out exactly what Buffy fell in love with other than the "I'm dark and brooding, so give me love" and "billowy coat king of pain" traits that the show actually pokes fun at in Season 4.

[Dorian's Kitten]

I prefer Buffy/Angel to Buffy/Spike, but I don't *like* either of them. In the case of Buffy/Angel, I always thought it was kind of like Titanic. Two people in love with each other because the script says so. I've watched the flashback scene of Angel seeing Buffy, and didn't see her "holding out her heart for everyone to see" or whatever Angel said in "Helpless". In the case of Angel, I never figured out exactly what Buffy fell in love with other than the "I'm dark and brooding, so give me love" and "billowy coat king of pain" traits that the show actually pokes fun at in Season 4.

Very True KoC, they never really show a falling in love process. He is just this mysterious older guy and then suddenly he's a vamp and they have a tragic love. Why? What do they have in common? We don't even see them have a decent conversation before the big tragic love bit.

Angel/ Buffy has some very sweet moments (the cross burning against his chest was a lovely touch) but I prefer Buffy/ Spike because we see feelings develop and change. Also Angel was so robbing the cradle; it was a little bit icky.

[redrevo]

Very True KoC, they never really show a falling in love process. He is just this mysterious older guy and then suddenly he's a vamp and they have a tragic love. Why? What do they have in common? We don't even see them have a decent conversation before the big tragic love bit.

Absolutely. It seems more based on looks and the "sexy vampire thing" than personality or a strong friendship. They never have a normal conversation, never ask "how was your day?", Angel never does anything comically stupid, there aren't any elongated awkward moments, and everything is overdramatized. It's just weird cryptic "gorgeous in a really annoying way" guy -> vampire with soul and loads of sexual tension OMG!!!11one -> making out in the graveyard. And, well, Angel is really never given a personality other than "brood, darkness, angst." When she's near Angel, Buffy never loosens up, never smiles brightly. There was a great sequence in "Something Blue":

spoilered for long dialogue
Buffy: I don't know. I really like being around him, you know? And I think he cares about me...but...I just...feel like something's missing.
Willow: He's not making you miserable?
Buffy: Exactly. Riley seems so solid. Like he wouldn't cause me heartache.
Willow: Get out. Get out while there's still time.
Buffy: I know...I have to get away from that bad boy thing. There's no good there. Seeing Angel in LA...even for five minutes...hello to the pain.
Willow: The pain is not a friend.
Buffy: But I can't help thinking, isn't that where the fire comes from? Can a nice, safe relationship be that intense? I know it's nuts, but...part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting.

<stakes vampire>

Buffy: I wonder where I get that from.

[Bre]

Very interesting points being made here, and I love the direction this conversation is going, but let's remember this isn't a bashing thread, for either relationship.

First, I agree tha they never really had that falling in love process, but we have to remember that this was Buffy and Angel's first real love, so they fell hard, quickly. It's easy to say that when it's something that you know you shouldn't like, can't have in the long run, really makes it all that much more irresistable, thus the infatuation. But at the same time, we did get a few moments where they did have that normal, casual convo, a great deal of those moments being in the second season (Ted, Bad Eggs, etc) when Buffy pushes her normal ideas onto Angel and he gives in (ice skating), before the Angelus fiasco and the third season.

Compared to the Buffy/Spike relationship, they didn't have a lot of time to get to know each other. With Spike, Buffy had already have the dangerous, epic love with Angel and the safe, reliable love with Riley, and I have to admit that Spike was a weird mixture of those two. He was alway, always there for her, like Riley, but he presented a great deal of danger and a fear of love as well for Buffy. In the end, I don't think comparing them is really fair to either side, so let's get on with some happy Bangel thoughts.

I remember in the last thread at BWF that we were discussing a fic centering around Buffy and Angelus, and while it is a fantastic, fantastic story, it doesn't really focus on Buffy and Angel.

Here's a question that I'm sure could get some good convos going: What do you think would have happened had Angel not decided to leave, rather Joyce hadn't come to talk to him? Would he have stayed with Buffy through college? In that case, where would Buffy be as a person? Same with Angel? What about Cordelia, Doyle, Wesley, the characters from Angel? And what of Riley?

For me personally, I think Angel would have eventually left no matter what. After the Angelus thing, he knew that they could never truly be together, and maybe it would have happened that they accidentally slept together and then Angelus would be back, which would cause more heartache and hey, maybe he would really have thrown the world into Hell.

What does everyone else think?

[Dana]

To start off, HELLO SIGN ME UP!! :D

Ok, now that that's out of the way, let me pick up the serveral questions disguised as one made by Bre above me.

I don't think Buffy and Angel would have slept together again, they knew the consequenses and even if they were as passionate as they were before it happened the first time I don't think they'd take it all the way. Angel might have left but it would probably have happened a long time into the future.. if ever. They faught for the good guys, they were the champions and they were an excellent team together. Watching them fight together was like a dance.

I don't think Riley would have come into the picture the way he did. There wouldn't have been this akwardness from the beginning as Buffy would have still been with Angel and not looked another way and she'd probably not act like she did since there was no need for flirting or falling for this boy (ok, I sound weird but I hope you get the point I'm trying to bring up here), he would just have become a friend of Willows and perhaps a friend of Buffy's but I don't see her cheating on Angel for Riley. Perhaps the whole Initiative storyline would have been brought in differently and I for one would have loved to see how they would have discovered this whole thing and how they would have stopped it had they not had Riley on the inside or Buffy as an ex-insider.

As Skip kinda showed us (even if he was kinda evil), had Angel and Cordy not run into eachother on that party in 'city of' she would probably have found her dream and pursued a carreer in television and movies. Perhaps "Cordy" would have actually been a reality and something the scoobies would have talked and joked about in Sunnydale.

Wes - I don't think he as a person would have grown into this man that he did over the years on "Angel". He wouldn't have fallen in with Angel, Doyle and Cordy. He could have turned up in Sunnydale some years later perhaps but who knows, maybe he would have turned into the person he was but it would have taken longer since he was without the 'safetinet' that was their group. We did see him find his own 'gang' during the fallout between Wes and Angel/the gang so perhaps he would have done that either way, only some years later. Maybe he would have bumped into Gunn sometime.. who knows?

Fred - Sadly I think she would have been stuck in Lorne's dimention and she would probably have been killed there, never gettinga chance to return to L.A.

Doyle - I honestly think he would have died sooner than he did on "Angel". One shouldn't forget his gambling problems and such and how Angel bailed him out of trouble a few times. I loved the guy but I don't think he would have survived much longer. OR he might have shown up in Sunnydale, helping the gang or getting Angel to find his own path.. just like he did on the show.

Buffy - I do think she would have gotten into college and tried to make it, and perhaps she would have been better at it with Angel by her side, since she wouldn't have had all those problems with Riley (one assumes since they wouldn't have known eachother as intimatly as they did on the show) and perhaps he could have been a better supporter during Joyce's illness and Buffy might have relied more on him and confided more in him than she did in Riley. But then.. who knows, maybe it would have gone the same way, Buffy leaving college to support Dawn, allthough perhaps Angel would have stepped up in this department.. one does remember him visiting Buffy by Joyce's grave. He would have supported her through anything.

Maybe Spike wouldn't have become the scooby that he did, since Angel was around. He and Buffy probably wouldn't have had the intimate relationship if Angel was around and perhaps alot of things would have gone alot different if he did become a scooby. Then they would have had two powerfull vampires and one slayer in the group.

What I'm also curious about in this question... would Buffy had died? Would she have been brought back to life? What would have happened in season 6/7 if Angel was still around? These are all very interesting questions and ones that I've thought of before.

There's always a 'what if?'...

[~M@rie~]

First thing first, sign me up!!

To reply to Bre's and Dana's questions, I agree with Dana.

Buffy wouldn't have slept with Angel because they knew what would happen if they did. The thing I love the most about their relationship is that they are about to get pass the physical aspect and still have a very strong relationship.

However, I think that Angel would've left Buffy eventually. He knew that he was preventing her from living a normal life, well as normal as a Slayer's life can be. When Joyce went to see him, Angel understood and already knew why Joyce was concerned about them.

But, if he stayed, I think that Buffy & Riley would've been friends and we would've found out about the Initiative in a completely different way (which would've been really interesting). Spike would've probably been a Scooby but he would've been shadowed by Angel.

I think Buffy wouldn't have to die in "The Gift" because Angel would've probably save her and sacrificed himself instead. In AtS 3.01, Cordy tells the same thing to Angel and he seemed to agree with her on a certain level. If Angel died, Buffy would mourn his death for months and maybe sleep with Spike to try and feel alive again.

But who knows? Maybe something completely different could've happened.

[Ameer]

Count me in!

Part of the reason I fell in love with Buffy 10 years back was because of Bangel. It was my first ship ever (as far as I remember) and I loved them to death, though, obviously, there was the occasional cheese factor. I suppose it has been difficult for me to accept Buffy with anyone else because Bangel was something that I had had a taste of from the very beginning. Most (not all) of the Spuffy shippers I've met began watching Buffy in its 6th and 7th season and so always preferred that over Bangel. It's refreshing to come across a Spuffy who likes Bangel too.

[Peace]

I guess I don't really have to explain in here why I want to be listed :) Please add me! It's been quite a long while since I posted in this thread (or in any threads, to be honest:lol: ). Thank you, Odelia, for starting a thread for our Bangel club! And I totally agree with all you on the reasons why Bangel matters. Plus, since Bre brought up the topic about fanfiction, I appeal to all of us, Bangel, to start the similar fanfiction discussion we had back in the days at the BWF. I'm not sure about the continuing of the discussion of TWSOAVS though. What do you all think about it? Should we go on or maybe someone had another fic for us to read and express some thoughts?
By the way, Bre, honey, if you won't write any new chapter for "Only time", I will kill you. I mean it. :p

I'm not going to explain why I love Bangel, everything's been already said by Bre and Odelia. I'll just add that to me Bangel is the greatest source of inspiration in fanart and the main source for positive emotions, no matter how much angst we have there. Bangel is addiction, it's the stimulus for making blends, reading fanfiction, go on working on the site, finding new friends and continue the friendship with old ones, because we'll never get tired nor of each other, nor of the relationship of Buffy and Angel. Am I right?

Here's a question that I'm sure could get some good convos going: What do you think would have happened had Angel not decided to leave, rather Joyce hadn't come to talk to him? Would he have stayed with Buffy through college? In that case, where would Buffy be as a person? Same with Angel? What about Cordelia, Doyle, Wesley, the characters from Angel? And what of Riley?
I think this question can lead only to another AR fanfic:) Angel decided to leave long before Joyce came around, she was only the catalyst. If Angel stayed... I doubt Riley would come along. Cordelia would be ... well, dead (it anyways led to this), so as maybe Wesley and all the other future-to-be members of the Fang Gang. It's weir, though. All these people – Wes, Cordy, Gunn, Fred – Angel saved their lives in some way, but all of them eventually died. That is pretty much hopeless and makes you wonder – was it worth that?
As for Buffy, well, let's face it that at the end of season 7 the curse wasn't an issue any more, the worlds and lifestyles of both Buffy and Angel – that was a problem for them to get along. Definitely the changes Buffy went through after Angel left did affect her character; we saw the result in "Conversations with dead people". Actually my head's a little aching now, so I can't get any other thought about it. I'm not Joss (yeah, if you haven't noticed yet)

[sherrilina]

Spike would've probably been a Scooby but he would've been shadowed by Angel.

I think Buffy wouldn't have to die in "The Gift" because Angel would've probably save her and sacrificed himself instead. In AtS 3.01, Cordy tells the same thing to Angel and he seemed to agree with her on a certain level. If Angel died, Buffy would mourn his death for months and maybe sleep with Spike to try and feel alive again.

But who knows? Maybe something completely different could've happened.
I doubt that Spike would have stuck around if Angel was there--Angel wouldn't have tolerated it, lol, he could barely stand Spike in ATS season 5, and asked Spike to go away as soon as he was physically able to do so. Or maybe Spiek would ahev stayed and Buffy would have caught them in the throes of passion one night when they were supposedly collecting information...;) Sorry, the Spangel in me had to say that--but I don't think Spike would have become a Scooby or stayed in Sunnydale if Angel had been around.

Also, how could Angel have sacrificed himself in The Gift, when it was the blood that mattered--hers or Dawn? Unless he drank a lot from Buffy before hand, lol, but I don't think so....Cordy said Angel couldn't have died WITH her, a la Romeo and Juliet, not instead of her. So he could not have sacrificed himself for her b/c of the situation, and at most could have tried to stop the evil doctor guy from starting the sacrifice in the first place, as Spike tried to do--and honestly, I don't think he would have necessarily had any more luck than Spike in doing so, they're pretty evenly matched....but if Spike had been around it would have been interesting to see them bot dealing with Buffy's death together--I always wished I could see Angel's reaction to shoemone telling him that he wasn't the only vampire grieving over Buffy's death....

I suppose it has been difficult for me to accept Buffy with anyone else because Bangel was something that I had had a taste of from the very beginning. Most (not all) of the Spuffy shippers I've met began watching Buffy in its 6th and 7th season and so always preferred that over Bangel. It's refreshing to come across a Spuffy who likes Bangel too.
I think you aren't far off the mark--I first got a glimpse of Buffy during season 7, and so Spuffy was the first Buffy ship I was exposed to, during its more romantic stage. I didn't even know Angel had been on the show until I caught the cemetary scene in Chosen (thank goodness I didn't watch further and get spoiled about the end before I'd seen the whole series from the beginning!), when I thought a) wow, she sure has a thing for vampires, and b) why would anyone choose this Angel guy over Spike?! After all, Angel was hardly on his best behavior and making a good impression in that scene....;)

But then when I watched BTVS from the beginning, I did like Bangel a lot and rooted for it, enjoying their moments together, etc, though with the knowledge of Spuffy happening someday in the back of my mind, and rooting for their small moments as well (when he first sees her at the Bronze, their working together to put down Angelus). I still enjoy Bangel in seasons 1-3 of BTVS (and ONLY those seasons!), and season 2 is tied with 5 as my all-time fave season (which does have something to do with it being the epic season of Bangel, lol). I also like Bad Eggs, for example, though many hate it, partly b/c of the high rate of Bangel kissing per minute. ;)

I do prefer Spuffy to Bangel, probably at least in part because of when I tuned in, but I still like Bangel in its proper time and place, during seasons 1-3 of Buffy....

[~M@rie~]

I doubt that Spike would have stuck around if Angel was there--Angel wouldn't have tolerated it, lol, he could barely stand Spike in ATS season 5, and asked Spike to go away as soon as he was physically able to do so. Or maybe Spiek would ahev stayed and Buffy would have caught them in the throes of passion one night when they were supposedly collecting information...;) Sorry, the Spangel in me had to say that--but I don't think Spike would have become a Scooby or stayed in Sunnydale if Angel had been around.

Yeah, you're right. Spike & Angel wouldn't have been able to stand each other but if he stayed it would've been interesting to see them argue like an old couple. And, seeing them both mourn Buffy's death would've been really interesting; maybe they would've been able to talk about her together.


Also, how could Angel have sacrificed himself in The Gift, when it was the blood that mattered--hers or Dawn? Unless he drank a lot from Buffy before hand, lol, but I don't think so....Cordy said Angel couldn't have died WITH her, a la Romeo and Juliet, not instead of her. So he could not have sacrificed himself for her b/c of the situation, and at most could have tried to stop the evil doctor guy from starting the sacrifice in the first place, as Spike tried to do--and honestly, I don't think he would have necessarily had any more luck than Spike in doing so, they're pretty evenly matched....but if Spike had been around it would have been interesting to see them bot dealing with Buffy's death together--I always wished I could see Angel's reaction to shoemone telling him that he wasn't the only vampire grieving over Buffy's death....


Yeah, that's right. I forgot about the Summers' blood bit. I agree that Angel would've tried to stop Doc, just as Spike did. However, we'll never know if we would've been able to do more than Spike. I also agree that Angel would've probably killed himself after seeing that Buffy died. Or he would've stayed alive, just like he did, to try and honnor Buffy in saving innocent people; thus, giving him an "extra" purpose for fighting evil.

I was thinking about this the other day: do you think that Buffy would've been able to fullfill her duty as a Slayer if Angel decided to stay human in IWRY?

[Bre]

First, I :heart: Bangel! :D The conversations are pretty.

Let's see... I guess it's the fanfic writer in me that would want them to sleep together. Let's not forget the fics that I have written. *blushes* <-- Only not really, because I did write them. He he. (And Peace, I know I suck life balls. It's my muse who continues to sit in the corner and eat her own hair...) Although I can't help but remember Buffy and Angel kissing when he came to see her for Joyce's funeral. He was there to comfort her, and while she did admit that she was extremely needy, he was a real connection from a time when it was possible, when it wasn't possible, when innocence was her thing and when things were still sparkly. With first loves, that stuff doesn't go away, and the romantic in me wants to believe that while Angelus would be a horrible consequence (again), they would find themselves in a passionate embrace of craziness, especially as Buffy got older, and discovered more of herself both as a woman and as a Slayer, just as she did with Spike. Something tells me that she would desire that danger that she had with Spike. (Regardless of the whole Spuffy vs. Bangel thing, both relationships, IMO, were very important for Buffy and I find both endearing for that very reason).

As far as the other characters, I think Cordy would be dead. Remember Winters? Lured her right into a trap and while she is from Sunnydale, that girl was desperate and would have easily fallen in as she did in the premier of Angel. Sad, true.

I agree with Dana on the assumptions on Wesley. I think they made Wesley that dark to make way for how dark he would become with the gang, and I honestly think he would have made his way back to London or something, maybe found another group to fall in with, someone to follow.

Boo, I'm getting off-track of the Bangel-ness.

I would love to discuss real quick the whole Spike and Riley thing in relation with Buffy and Angel. How fantastically different things would be! First, Buffy wouldn't have looked twice at Riley if Angel were still in the picture. Her one true love kicked to the curb for a college fling (in her eyes, at least)? Please! She would have found him boring and lacking the dangerous passion and misery that she had with Angel, which she thoroughly craved, and which she got with Spike. And Spike! He would have never gotten anywhere near as close with Buffy with Angel there, because she would have that miserable outlet with Angel (lacking the sex, of course, but they would both be in horrible denial, thus making the misery that much better... for both).

Marie, Marie, Marie! What a fascinating question you've asked. Would Buffy have remained in her Slayer duties if Angel had remained human?

I honestly think she would have no choice. She had been the Slayer, and she has had human sidekicks for the longest time who haven't died (yet), so I think it would be right of her character at the time to assume that Angel could do just as well. But he wouldn't, because instinct would tell him that he still has his vampiric strength when he actually doesn't, and then he would get pummelled to hell, such as we saw in IWRY.

Of course, letting my mind get away from me, I think Angel would have eventually died, regardless of how much Buffy wanted to protect him, mostly because he has a pride thing as well as a hero complex that you really can't kill (...). This, in turn, would turn Buffy in a rogue-ish Slayer, an all-work-no-play Slayer and she would go on a killing rampage of sorts and get herself killed. Very dark and morbid, but fascinating... :lol:

[Lexus]

Yay, the Bangel Thread reborn. I kinda got out of touch with old one, which was near my home in my younger BW days :(.

Anyway, why do I l:heart:ve Bangel? Bangel was my first ship, it was the first tv couple which made me really cry, made me really hope, made me think. Buffy and Angel where on two separate layers totally unique and totally original. On one hand they were the Romeo and Juliet of the modern age, an epic tale passed on by time. On the other we where introduced to themes, and characterizations we had never seen on tv, between any other character. The first time I realized I loved Bangel was when Angel let a cross burn over his heart, and from that moment I shared in their combined grief, joy, and hope for a better future.

From Buffy's humble crush, B/A developed, their trails and tribulations only seemed to make their love stronger, and although it soon became clear their right for a happy future would never be realized their love remained, a sorid reminder of duty and penance in the fight of two champions.

Ok that's one reason why I love Bangel, but there are so many more reasons. I went through this entire phase where all I heard when I listened to music was how it related to Bangel, the fan fiction is amazing, and so completely varied from angst to the fluffiest fluff in the fluff universe. No matter where my tastes in television take me, I will always hold B/A in my heart as one of my favorite parts of the buffyverse.

[Sassy]

Sign me up please.

There's so many reasons I like Bangel. One, I just love how in love they were. Even after Angel left they still cared and loved each other. Two, hey would do anything for each other. Three Angel left so Buffy could be happy even though they still loved each other.

Here's a quote I found that I think fits Bangel

I'm not supposed to love you, I'm not supposed to care, I'm not supposed to live my life, wishing you were there. I'm not supposed to wonder where you are, or what you do. I'm sorry, I just can't help myself, I fell in love with you.

[Dana]

Hay, Saltygoodness, what's with the ignoring me as a member issue?? *poke* I'm technically above ~M@rie~ and Peace on the list! *pokes again* ;)


As far as the other characters, I think Cordy would be dead. Remember Winters? Lured her right into a trap and while she is from Sunnydale, that girl was desperate and would have easily fallen in as she did in the premier of Angel. Sad, true.


Actually, I don't think she'd be dead. Remember the whole visual aid Skip used in 'birthday'? Cordy would have met a huge director/producer (can't remember which) if she hadn't seen Angel. If she had met this huge guy then she would never gone to Winters as she would have been busy elsewhere and not as desperate for fame etc (one would imagine at least ;)) as she was when she met winters after meeting Angel.. if you get my confusing rambling? ;)

[Bre]

Actually, I don't think she'd be dead. Remember the whole visual aid Skip used in 'birthday'? Cordy would have met a huge director/producer (can't remember which) if she hadn't seen Angel. If she had met this huge guy then she would never gone to Winters as she would have been busy elsewhere and not as desperate for fame etc (one would imagine at least ;)) as she was when she met winters after meeting Angel.. if you get my confusing rambling? ;)

Oooh, but I do, good point. :roll: My hair is blonde for a reason. :p

And isn't it true, Lexus, about the fanfiction? It just varies from one locale to another, testing the waters with everything and anything. It's so fun to read, and for me personally, I've found that I do prefer me some angsty, angsty, angsty stuff that makes me feel so much more for my couple. :D

[Risa]

Ah my favorite thread of all time. Bangel forever! I'd add more imput than that but I am completely lost at the moment. Maybe I need to go watch some Jossverse...lol.

[Peace]

Hey there folks:)

Bre, it's okay. :hug: Believe me, I know how muses are bitches from time to time. Mine's been quite like that lately, but anyways, just want you to know that people are awaiting for your fics to be concluded.:)
Originally posted by Bre
Something tells me that she would desire that danger that she had with Spike. (Regardless of the whole Spuffy vs. Bangel thing, both relationships, IMO, were very important for Buffy and I find both endearing for that very reason).
I totally agree with you on this. Now, since we have season 8 in comics and everything, this kind of thought visits me more often than usual. As much as I dislike Spuffy, it did happen, and it changed our Slayer.

Originally posted by Bre
Of course, letting my mind get away from me, I think Angel would have eventually died, regardless of how much Buffy wanted to protect him, mostly because he has a pride thing as well as a hero complex that you really can't kill (...). This, in turn, would turn Buffy in a rogue-ish Slayer, an all-work-no-play Slayer and she would go on a killing rampage of sorts and get herself killed. Very dark and morbid, but fascinating...
M-m-m... sounds quite horrible. I agree with you on this, Angel would've died, we've seen his craziness in IWRY. But I won't say it's only the hero complex to blame. Men. :lol: Angel wouldn't feel quite well with Buffy tailing around, protecting him. At least Spike would have a good topic for jokes.:)

Angsty fanfiction RULEZ!

Lexus, Sassy, Risa welcome to the Bangel thread, it's nice to see you joining us here!

[Sassy]

Thanks for the welcome,m Peace


Of course, letting my mind get away from me, I think Angel would have eventually died, regardless of how much Buffy wanted to protect him, mostly because he has a pride thing as well as a hero complex that you really can't kill (...). This, in turn, would turn Buffy in a rogue-ish Slayer, an all-work-no-play Slayer and she would go on a killing rampage of sorts and get herself killed. Very dark and morbid, but fascinating... :lol:

I think you are probably right about this. Angel would end up doing something incredibly stupid and getting himself killed. Although like Peace Spike would have plenty of jokes about Angel being protected by Buffy.

Also that sounds like a great idea for a fanfic....

[SaltyGoodness]

Argh - Dana, honey! So sorry to miss you out...if you check now, you'll find a lil'party being held by your name in the list in honour of your joining :lol:

Welcome all you new&old-bies into the Bangel club. Awesome to have you all!

I know I'm a rubbish thread manager, but I have to fly away again...so busy these days! However, am off to make some Bangel art - it's been tooo long!

[Sassy]

What do you guys think about the whole cookie-dough speech Buffy told Angel? Is there a chance for them in the future or not?

I'm not sure what I think right now. It's getting kind of late right now, but I think in the future it could happen.

[Julian]

Among all of Buffy's relationships (in the past), I have always believed that she would end up with Angel. The only problem with the equation is Angel. He's not the type to settle down until he's found "redemption." The guy has the ability to walk away, that's one of his greatest strengths (as well as weakness). He could walk away from Buffy. He could walk away from Connor. He could away from anyone just as long as he can continue the "mission."

By the way, Please add my name on this club. Thanks

[basakbangel]

I absoultley believe in bangel too.They have been the best. Their love is so eternal that it is taking over you and feeling in that way is perfect.
It's like I can feel them while watching.They are forever...

Would you mind adding me too SaltyGoodness?

[Dana]

Argh - Dana, honey! So sorry to miss you out...if you check now, you'll find a lil'party being held by your name in the list in honour of your joining :lol:
:lol: I noticed :D Thanx for adding me FINALLY and in the right place ;)

I haven't done art in ages but I'm starting to feel the need. Bangel has become the center of my work these days, if I do music videos, they mostly revolve around this couple and my art.. it will get there soon too :D

[~M@rie~]

OH. MY. GOD.! We sooo need to revive this thread! Where did all the Bangel shippers go (me included)?

To get the discussion going again, what are your favorite chilling Bangel moments? I know, the question is cliché but anyway. :p

Here are some that instantly come to my mind:

- When Buffy makes Angel bite her in Grad. Day part 2
- When Angel tells her that he wants to take comfort in her even if it would cost him his soul in Amends
- When Angel gives Buffy the Claddagh ring in Surprise
- When he tells her that he loves her in Surprise
- When Buffy kisses and kills him in Becoming part 2
- When Buffy tells Xander and Willow that she loved him more than she will ever love anything in this life in Selfless
- When Angel gives Buffy one last look before leaving in Grad. Day part 2
- When Angel shows up at the Prom in The Prom
- All of IWRY; especially when they kiss in the sunlight and when they kiss before the day rewinds.

So, what are your favorite Bangel chilling moments?

[basakbangel]

OH. MY. GOD.! We sooo need to revive this thread! Where did all the Bangel shippers go (me included)?

To get the discussion going again, what are your favorite chilling Bangel moments? I know, the question is cliché but anyway. :p

Here are some that instantly come to my mind:

- When Buffy makes Angel bite her in Grad. Day part 2
- When Angel tells her that he wants to take comfort in her even if it would cost him his soul in Amends
- When Angel gives Buffy the Claddagh ring in Surprise
- When he tells her that he loves her in Surprise
- When Buffy kisses and kills him in Becoming part 2
- When Buffy tells Xander and Willow that she loved him more than she will ever love anything in this life in Selfless
- When Angel gives Buffy one last look before leaving in Grad. Day part 2
- When Angel shows up at the Prom in The Prom
- All of IWRY; especially when they kiss in the sunlight and when they kiss before the day rewinds.

So, what are your favorite Bangel chilling moments?

THANK YOU ~M@rie~!!!

Yes we really need to keep this thread alive. Nobody new is included to the list and also no one's talking. I'm jealous of the Spuffy Thread...:D:D they talk!!:D:D

I was expecting someone to write sometihing and it's you ~M@rie~ thank you.

Well It's bangel and there are lots of thing to say about this couple! One of my favourite scence is when Buffy and Angel crying in IWRY(the last moments) I cry a lot while watching.

There is no need to say becoming part 2 was one of the BESTS!! I feel depressed every time I watch; feel like crying, or just like Angel-brooding.. Amends was the episode that I watch mostly.(I can watch it right now for example:D) Amends was the proof of Buffy and Angel's love's power. It's very romantic and touching. In Selfless I felt very happy when I heard Angel's name. I was very meaningful to say that Angel was is true love and I felt very very blissful. It always happen to me like that when hear Angel's name during the last seasons I suddenly feel happy, cheerful.

[NileQT87]

another bangel addict here... long standing in the fandom as one.

i love the tragedy of the relationship. season 2 is my favorite season of btvs. angel is my favorite character--thus, i love the season of btvs that deals the most with him, plus it's the most emotional and tragic (it's my inner masochist). but it's telling that no matter how far angel and buffy get on their journeys, it still comes back to them. ...the last of which we saw in btvs season 8 (loved how it was buffy and angel facing each other--i thought it was telling that spike's head is down, buffy's trying to include him, but he's not quite as close).

plus, we know smg, db, jm and joss all were fans of the bangel relationship.

i happen to like spuffy quite a bit, but i hate cangel as more than a friendship. and i love dangel and sprusilla almost as much as bangel, so it's not a who gets buffy or angel issue. in fact, i was a spuffy before i was a bangel (my first posts at the original buffy world were actually as a spuffy)... but i became disenfranchised with some of the fan behavior (sorry). also, i had seen the end of btvs before i saw the beginning. in fact, my first exposure to angel was on his own show (i didn't even know there were two shows until i recognized spike flipping through channels). it was when i had seen the shows in complete form, that i switched. i totally fell in love with bangel and the high school years of btvs and of course my undying love for ats except for what they did to cordy in season 3--i also hate groo (whereas i love evil-cordy, connor and jasmine!).

bangel is the most literary, epic and tragic story in the jossverse, and that went a long way to me loving it so much. it's just beautiful and well-written. i'm a sucker for angsty epic tragedy. plus, the gypsy curse/angelus plot was the best writing btvs ever had.

one of my all-time favorite moments of the jossverse is at the end of angel in season 1 btvs, with sophie zelmani's "i will remember you" and buffy burning the cross into angel. others are, of course, prophecy girl, lie to me, what's my line? pts. 1 & 2, surprise/innocence, passion, i only have eyes for you, becoming pts. 1 & 2, amends, consequences, enemies, choices and the prom.

on a personal level between angel and buffy... angel probably did the most to try to connect buffy with her humanity. he always thought about her first in the relationship. of course, angel was also a big-picture thinker and had to make hard decisions sometimes that went against feelings. but it was only fair to them both in the long run. yet, despite their split, they never stopped loving each other. they also kept coming back to each other, but the facts of what they were separated them. they were torn apart by circumstance, not because of any falling out of love--because they still were very much in love.

a lot of people whine about bangel not being realistic, but most of those people are arguing because their view of reality, isn't reality at all, but is pessimism. bangel had an optimistic side, but also the idea of being torn apart by circumstance, which is also something very grounded in reality--sometimes that happens to relationships. according to joss, bangel was his exploration of a relationship built on love, and spuffy was a relationship built on lust that became somewhat of a friendship. those were the intentions. and despite bangel's age difference, they were very much on a level playing field emotionally. they related to each other quite a bit--for reasons i've stated in other threads. she as the chosen one and he as the only vampire with a soul. they were the original and most important champions of the jossverse.

imo, bangel is what really made the show come into excellence. it was the element that broke it away from being another high school friends or creature of the week series. it made it epic. it created the kind of mythology for the show that it needed. angel's multiple personalities and the beginning of the masochistic joss writing that puts your heart through the wringer--bangel was the start of that and did it best (fresley is probably its only competition in that regard).

[~M@rie~]

THANK YOU ~M@rie~!!!

Yes we really need to keep this thread alive. Nobody new is included to the list and also no one's talking. I'm jealous of the Spuffy Thread...:D:D they talk!!:D:D

I was expecting someone to write sometihing and it's you ~M@rie~ thank you.

Well It's bangel and there are lots of thing to say about this couple! One of my favourite scence is when Buffy and Angel crying in IWRY(the last moments) I cry a lot while watching.

There is no need to say becoming part 2 was one of the BESTS!! I feel depressed every time I watch; feel like crying, or just like Angel-brooding.. Amends was the episode that I watch mostly.(I can watch it right now for example:D) Amends was the proof of Buffy and Angel's love's power. It's very romantic and touching. In Selfless I felt very happy when I heard Angel's name. I was very meaningful to say that Angel was is true love and I felt very very blissful. It always happen to me like that when hear Angel's name during the last seasons I suddenly feel happy, cheerful.

You're welcome. ;)

Amends is one of the most powerful Bangel episode, IMO. It really shows that they are both willing to sacrifice the things they cherish in order to make sure that the other one is okay. It also shows that Buffy accepts all that Angel is and that she knows he can be a better man. She loves him for what he really is. :heart: In addition, the way she talked of him in Selfless is one of the most sincere speech that she ever did. Buffy was feeling and meaning every word she said and this, once again, proves that their love can never die.

Also, the scene in Chosen, with the cookie-dough speech and when Buffy tells Angel that he'll be the one for her when she is ready is also a very romantic and hopeful moment.

Welcome back to the Bangel shippers club, Nile! Glad to see you here again! :)

[sherrilina]

- All of IWRY; especially when they kiss in the sunlight and when they kiss before the day rewinds.
So you find eating peanut butter and ice cream chilling, do you? :p Lol, just teasing you! ;)

But IMO the most chilling Bangel moment is hands down the possession scene in "I Only Have Eyes for You"--damn, was that a powerful and chilling moment! You do almost get goosebumps, seeing them re-enact the same ghostly lover's quarrel you've already seen occur multiple times, but with so much more emotion and meaning this time, as the words in the old lover's quarrel so echo their own situation--that scene is just such an excellent culmination of the season, of what had happened since Innocence--I can't imagine anyone could really appreciate the episode without having seen the rest of the season (at least from Bad Eggs or Surprise onwards). It's so chilling because it's both such an emotional and beautiful scene, and because of the way it's not even them anymore, but only happening because of ghosts--it's the last time we see Angel and Buffy being loving towards one another, and kissing one another, until the end of Becoming Part 2 (and it had been a while since they had been "with each other" before then), which makes the scene all the more chilling, especially in the final seconds when they're still kissing, and Angelus hasn't fully recovered yet.

Other Bangel scenes, while very emotional, I wouldn't consider to be "chilling" per say--though I guess the end of Becoming Part 2 when she kisses him one last time (to their beautiful theme music!) comes close--and I suppose the beginning of the sex scene in the end of surprise is chilling b/c you know what's going to happen next in just a few minutes...same goes for the ring-giving scene for that reason.

[NileQT87]

ok, we need more love in bangel-land.

other scenes that are pretty chilling are the "dreaming of" dream sequence in "amends"--the music is a music box version of the "close your eyes" theme, which is haunting on its own. also, one of my favorite pieces of dialog from angel EVER is "am i a thing worth saving, huh? am i a righteous man?" as i have in my sig.

another moment that i just love (kudos to db) is in "graduation day, pt. 2" where angel has just drunk from buffy and has just run into the hospital. he breaks the door handle. and of course, harry groener's best acting is when he calls buffy a whore and angel pushes him. some of the best scenes in season 3 are between angel and the mayor.

and of course, i am endlessly smitten by the episode "angel". the "do you snore?" bit, the kiss, scream and vamp-out... angel's gypsy curse speech, buffy offering her neck, angel killing darla... and finally, which is, imo, the most beautiful song ever used in the jossverse--sophie zelmani's "i will remember you". that end scene with the cross being burned into angel... i love that scene.

the thing about btvs, is that in many ways i think angel and spike actually ended up becoming the two most important characters because they had so much more depth than the other characters (as well as wesley). i honestly don't think btvs would have survived early on without angel's arc really pushing it to another level. that was what brought in the epic tragedy... the character that was really on the outskirts of society in the way buffy might have felt, but on a whole 'nother level. so, buffy was originally fascinated by him as someone who was messing with her... but i think it was in "the harvest" that she really started to care for him--especially the bit where she asks if he has any friends--and of course, she just lost her old life. they really did connect in ways that are totally overlooked. there was something so delicate and sad the way db played that early scene--especially that last little "good luck". angel was very broken early on--and that's a reason i really love that early pre-angelus angel as well. it was played very tenderly and innocently--he really isn't quite sure of himself yet. it's an interesting thing to add in with the rest of his journey.

it's not angel taking advantage of buffy, at all. in fact, it's buffy who is always prodding him to come around more and go further. she really was the one to start bringing him out of his shell. of course, after angelus, he really started becoming the angel that emerged later.

one thing that always happened with angel and buffy is that even though he knew he'd always have to keep leaving her before they got too close, he always came when she needed somebody ("forever" and the off-screen season 6 meeting), or to have that last special moment ("the prom"). they never actually fell out of love... the relationship just always remained on hold. they sort of thought what it would be like if circumstances were different, but the two of them often kept it internalized, but sometimes it came out in the cookie dough speech or when it involved angel still wanting to be protective over buffy, despite it not being his place. he just cared about her so much still, it was hard for him to keep away sometimes ("pangs", "the girl in question"). they NEVER stopped being in love. they were just split by circumstances beyond their control. again and again, they kept coming back to each other--even lying to themselves and how their friends saw it many times... but they never truly left each other behind in their thoughts. and of course, they made it both very clear that they sometimes think to the future as a 'what if?' in different circumstances, i think they'd go back to each other like it had never left off.

fact is, buffy always compared every relationship she ever had to angel (including riley and spike). riley left because he couldn't handle it and spike took his cues on how to be loved by buffy from the way she had loved angel. what he wished he was to buffy was the way she had been with angel. if he truly did go to the demon to get his soul back, it was knowing that buffy had been able to love a vampire who had a soul. spike sure seemed to believe, despite it hurting him, that the love she had/has for angel was still whom she measured all of her subsequent relationships against.

[Bre]

Ah, welcome all to the Bangel thread! :wave: Hello!

What do you guys think about the whole cookie-dough speech Buffy told Angel? Is there a chance for them in the future or not?

I'm not sure what I think right now. It's getting kind of late right now, but I think in the future it could happen.

Well, darn the writers for making the show end that way, with that little 'what if' hanging over everyone's head. I think it would be a long time coming for them to finally be together. I always found it silly how Angel was so ready to jump on the 'let's be together' bandwagon when it was him who had left her for a better life, to be with someone who could take her into the light. Of course, this could be stemming from jealousy of Spike and the fact that she ended up with a vampire anyway, soul or no soul, but he still lacked the mature view on the relationship from the third season of BtVS and first season of AtS. So, I think it's a great plot for a future venture, but IMO, I think it would take Buffy years for her to be cookies for Angel, going through many different relationships and still being a Slayer (she does have a different calling now, training all the Slayers), but hey, Angel's not getting any older, right? All the more endearing!

Among all of Buffy's relationships (in the past), I have always believed that she would end up with Angel. The only problem with the equation is Angel. He's not the type to settle down until he's found "redemption." The guy has the ability to walk away, that's one of his greatest strengths (as well as weakness). He could walk away from Buffy. He could walk away from Connor. He could away from anyone just as long as he can continue the "mission."

I don't necessarily agree with that. I agree that that is definitely one of his strongest points when looking at his character, but when he's in a relationship of any kind, it can be his weakness, depending on the situation. I don't think it's to continue the 'mission' or find 'redemption'. If the seasons of Angel taught us anything, it's that Angel has come to realize the big picture, that it will take years upon years upon years, when most, if all, of the people he knew are dead, before he gets such a reward because the cosmic balance requires a lot to make up for the damage that Angelus did.

No, I think when Angel does this it's because everyone is more important than him, no matter what. Connor, Buffy, the two people who have meant more to him than anyone. He sacrificed having his son in his life to give him a better life. Sound familiar? He did the same thing to Buffy! One of the biggest issues with Angel is his lack of self-worth when it comes to other people loving him (and while I do find Cangel endearing in a sort, I think it was a flaw for Angel's character the way he chased after her) and him loving back. I think it's fair to say that Angel, if he and Buffy ever got back together or saw each other in the future, would have trouble accepting her back into his arms, based on the fact that he's just not good enough (and again about their meeting in 'Chosen' when he's all jealous vampire guy... acting out against Spike overall): he thinks Buffy deserves the normal life she'll never have, with a human boyfriend, the 2.5 kids and the picket fence with a dog of some favorable type.

Another point that was made earlier in the thread about there not really being a falling in love process between Buffy and Angel, I competely agree, but not to see it in a negative way. I think both Buffy and Angel fell for each other hard, instantly, and the fact that he's a vampire and she's a Slayer probably added to the spice of their relationship, the danger and the excitement of being able to love each other. And, it's the first time for both of them that such a strong love hit them, so it makes it all the more interesting that they fall in love so quickly with each other, because they've never been hurt by a love love.

one thing that always happened with angel and buffy is that even though he knew he'd always have to keep leaving her before they got too close, he always came when she needed somebody ("forever" and the off-screen season 6 meeting), or to have that last special moment ("the prom"). they never actually fell out of love... the relationship just always remained on hold. they sort of thought what it would be like if circumstances were different, but the two of them often kept it internalized, but sometimes it came out in the cookie dough speech or when it involved angel still wanting to be protective over buffy, despite it not being his place. he just cared about her so much still, it was hard for him to keep away sometimes ("pangs", "the girl in question"). they NEVER stopped being in love. they were just split by circumstances beyond their control. again and again, they kept coming back to each other--even lying to themselves and how their friends saw it many times... but they never truly left each other behind in their thoughts. and of course, they made it both very clear that they sometimes think to the future as a 'what if?' in different circumstances, i think they'd go back to each other like it had never left off.

Yes, yes, you rock socks, a fantastic way to describe them.

fact is, buffy always compared every relationship she ever had to angel (including riley and spike). riley left because he couldn't handle it and spike took his cues on how to be loved by buffy from the way she had loved angel. what he wished he was to buffy was the way she had been with angel. if he truly did go to the demon to get his soul back, it was knowing that buffy had been able to love a vampire who had a soul. spike sure seemed to believe, despite it hurting him, that the love she had/has for angel was still whom she measured all of her subsequent relationships against.

Of course, and despite it being her true love/soul mate deal, it was her first love, and you always compare every relationship to the one where you felt the most passion, the most pain, the most happiness. And again, awesome way of summarizing them and Buffy!

[cheryl4ba]

Please sign me up too. I fell really hard for this fictional couple. I like the selfless aspect to the pairing and because Buffy wants him so much, I want her to have him.

[Howling Lupe]

Hello! I'm also a huge Angel/Buffy shipper.

I didn't start out that way though. I got into BtVS in the later seasons, and all I knew was that she had history with Angel, and that he was gone. So I mainly saw Buffy with Riley and Spike. I never did like Riley, actually, and was I rooting hard for Spike/Buffy. There was an element of danger there, the true epitome of 'loving to hate someone.' And during 'Chosen,' when Angel showed up, I was just confused, and resentful, really, although I was less fond of Spike/Buffy because Spike tried to rape her that one time. I was sad when he 'died,' though.

But then I bought season 1 of BtVS and everything changed. I got to know Angel, and the more I watched and understood, the less I thought of Spike/Buffy as a meaningful relationship. I was blown away at the depth and chemistry of Angel and Buffy and I was amazed at how I had scoffed at it previously.

Then I bought season 2, and it grew, intensely. I don't think I'll ship Buffy or Angel with anyone but each other. The development, the hesitation, the bickering, the intensity is just amazing. And then I got to the part I was dreading, when Angel sleeps with Buffy and loses his soul and becomes a monster again. I was scared I would come to hate Angel/Buffy again, but instead, I found myself drawn to it more, and Willow put it perfectly: Buffy was still the only thing Angelus thought about. 'Becoming' broke my heart when I saw it for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I had never cried while watching tv before, and those two episodes moved me to tears. I sobbed and cried and was just a wreak.

I've yet to see season 3, and I hope to have it soon, even though I know what will happen already. But (and this is strictly my opinion and how I view things) after watching seasons 1 and 2, and knowing what I know from watching the later seasons, I can't see Buffy being truly happy with anyone else.

The thing I love most about Angel/Buffy is how it had to transcend the purely physical. Granted, they still made out more than I've ever seen a couple do on television, but there was always that deep underlying sense of emotion and love and sadness to it, and that deep and unresolved sexual tension. What makes A/B so great, in my opinion, is the very fact that they can't truly be together the way they want to be. The fact that they're still so far apart and have grown and still love each other deeply is possibly the most romantic thing I've ever seen. (And I'll admit it, I'm a hopeless romantic.) No romantic relationship I've seen in BtVS has compared to what I've seen in Angel/Buffy.

I can see where other shippers are coming from, but as JW has left it open-ended, I feel very comfortable in my belief that Angel/Buffy is simply meant to be. :D

Lupe

[NileQT87]

com'on, we sweet, darling little bangelites. we need more of us!

we are in dire need of at least 2 more bangels to offset the latest crushing in the 'shipper poll.

(superficial am i? ...ok. yes. just this once... ish.)

[basakbangel]

I said this before but I guess, something's wrong.

Sign me up, please.

I waited but I don't know, maybe nobody saw. That's ok, no problem but I'm also a bangel shipper.. Till the end:)

[alexa]

Bangel shipper this way also. I'm partial to Buffy's other relationships for what they were worth, but for some reason this one resonated with me.
There are loads of great moments between them, although right now my favourites include the small one in Reptile Boy "No when you kiss me, I wanna die" - That took me a while to understand :p

[Cori]

Okay since SaltyGoodness is not around that much, I have added basakbangel and kanga to the member list on the first page.

Have fun discussing Bangel and please bear in mind that spamming is not allowed! Thank you. :)

[basakbangel]

I'm basicly asking you:

In which season do you think Buffy/Angel couple were best?

I know every season had It's own specialities but which one was your favourite?

Season 1
Season 2
Season 3

I wrote first three you know why:):D

[sherrilina]

Def. season 2--in that season they were truly epic and beautiful.....plus the whole season almost revolves around Bangel, so that's another point in season 2's favor....I like that their relationship has developed further from season 1, but is still happy somewhat, and innocent, since they don't know what will happen yet if they sleep together....

Season 3 was just awkward and annoying, the way they tried to pretend they were only friends at first (give it up!), etc....it just wasn't as great as in season 2, and of course season 1 wasn't either, esp. when he was barely in the season....

[Nina]

Can I be a part of the club?

Buffy & Angel were my dreamcouple, because besides all the problems and pain, they had a love which was like the love in a fairytale.
If you strip the whole vampirestuff away, you have two people who love eachother, make the other a better person and do everything for the other. They fit, they complete eachother and after all the years he still can make her shine when nothing or nobody else can do that anymore and she can make him insecure and act like a schoolboy.

Their best season, 2 or 3. I love the innocent love in season 2, but the painful love of season 3 was beautiful.

[Mirage]

Ooh, I'd love to be apart of this club. Buffy/Angel were my all-time favorite couple on the show.

And for which Season I thought they were the best in... hmm... I loved both Season 2 and Season 3 of Bangel. But Season 2 also has my favorite Buffy and Angel episode, which is "Surprise". I'll go with Season 2. We got to see their relationship deepen more and they said their first I love you's and also because it had such a bittersweet ending.

[basakbangel]

This is a quote that I wrote in Spuffy Union Club;


I'm so sorry but Is it forbidden for me to say something as a bangel? If, I'll delete it.

Sorry, Beste come on!!

Could Angel ignore Joyce?? If he'd do that how will he leave Sunnydale and start his own show, ATS. That was the thing that writers did. and... Joyce said that If you love love Buffy you should let her go.

how can she be happier when her lover's not with her?

Answer to this: If you watch I will remember you, I'll get the answer.
They knew they couldn't be together and Isn't it painful to be with your lover and always feel that you can lose him? They always had that and they knew that It will never be enough for them.

Spike did everything except for letting her go. He didn't do that, for her own good.


Am I wrong?

[Nina]

I think that Angel did the right thing. He wanted Buffy to be happy. And he didn't make her happy ... not really. Buffy was in highschool during their relation, but there will be a time that Buffy wanted to have sex, have a 'normal' relation and maybe if she lived long enough ... getting married. Angel couldn't give her that and he left. Buffy doesn't belong in the dark, she shouldn't spent her life with a undead in his crypt.

Besides, Angel needed to leave Sunnydale. He was for three years nothing more than a shadow of the former him. You see Angel getting stronger in his own series. He wasn't a man who deserved Buffy ... he had the potential to be that man ... but he wasn't.

Spike should have left too. If you really love somebody and you know you are no good ... you leave.

Lover's come and go ... some she loved more as others. But there is a life after Angel, after Riley, after Spike ...
I didn't like the relation with Riley because he didn't understood her, but he was the one who learned her to like sex (sex is not evil anymore), the one she could take home without difficult questions etc.

I think Buffy loved Angel more than any other person, but she needed to let him go ... they both needed to grow up. Maybe ... ever ... they are done with growing up and Angel is a worthy man ... they can be together for real.

[Enisy]

Popping in for a quick clarification... :)

Spike should have left too. If you really love somebody and you know you are no good ... you leave.

Spike: I should move out. Leave town. Before it is time for me.
Buffy: No. You have to stay.
Spike: You got another demon fighter now.
Buffy: That's not why I need you here.
Spike: Is that right? Why's that then?
Buffy: 'Cause I'm not ready for you to not be here.

[Nina]

I know, I wasn't judging Spike.
If Spike didn't die in 'Chosen', he would have left I think.
He knew he should leave, he just didn't do it then because of what Buffy said.
It was a reaction to:
Spike did everything except for letting her go. He didn't do that, for her own good.

[vampmogs]

Popping in for a quick clarification... :)



Spike: I should move out. Leave town. Before it is time for me.
Buffy: No. You have to stay.
Spike: You got another demon fighter now.
Buffy: That's not why I need you here.
Spike: Is that right? Why's that then?
Buffy: 'Cause I'm not ready for you to not be here.

Spike did think about it and he gets credit for that, but he didn't go through with it just because Buffy told him not to which is something I have a slight problem with. If Spike really felt it was best, if he really wanted to do it to keep a threat away from Buffy and the others he wouldn't have had to ask for her permission. He would have done what Angel did, and just leave.

Giles is right in many respects in calling him on it in 'Lies My Parents Told Me' when comparing him to Angel, though admittedly didn't know the full story and that Spike had at least considered it.

But yeah, I think if he really intended on leaving he would have left. Personally without hindsight I think it would have been best for him to leave to eliminate the threat. They needed him, he was a strong warrior, but he needed to leave and try and solve the problem away from Buffy then come back when the trigger had been dealt with. He didn’t even need to cut all ties with the Scoobies, Giles could have continued looking for a way to solve the trigger, Spike didn’t need to be there in the time it took for him to do that. But some of the blame also goes onto Buffy as well, for wanting him there for selfish reasons in the first place.

[Bre]

This is a quote that I wrote in Spuffy Union Club;


I'm so sorry but Is it forbidden for me to say something as a bangel? If, I'll delete it.

Sorry, Beste come on!!

Could Angel ignore Joyce?? If he'd do that how will he leave Sunnydale and start his own show, ATS. That was the thing that writers did. and... Joyce said that If you love love Buffy you should let her go.

how can she be happier when her lover's not with her?

Answer to this: If you watch I will remember you, I'll get the answer.
They knew they couldn't be together and Isn't it painful to be with your lover and always feel that you can lose him? They always had that and they knew that It will never be enough for them.

Spike did everything except for letting her go. He didn't do that, for her own good.


Am I wrong?

Alright, my Bangel friends! I wanted to pop in and comment. :D

Bottom line, Angel always knew that he and Buffy couldn't have a "normal" relationship, by standards of normal society as well as the supernatural society, if you will, that they constantly live in. He's a vampire with a curse on his soul that is always being tested at every curve and turn about by being with Buffy, and when Joyce did show up to speak with him, he understood that she's a mother who's protecting his daughter. Let's not forget that this is when Buffy is sill quite young, this is still her first majorly huge relationship and the overshadowing idea of Buffy and Angel being together is that Angel is the mature one, that he is the one who needs to let her move on. He knows it can't work, so he moves to another city aka another show. While yes, this can be perceived as an obvious ploy by the writers to get DB his new show, I also loved it because it gave us more Bangel angst than we could ever ask for (IWRY, hello? :p ), plus they'd had the drama about three thousand times over and the Angelus card had already been played. It was time for a fresh start.

The difference between Angel leaving and Spike leaving is Buffy. Buffy is more mature and knows that she's not ready to lose the support and love that she has with Spike. Over time, I've come to realize that they are two very different relationships and while I still like to live in what I fancy calling "la-la" land, Spike gave Buffy the chance to grow up a little more, which is why she tells Spike [what he needs to hear] what she feels.

We have to look at the relationships in the scale a la Buffy.

[debbiefm]

Just found this thread and my god where have I been? Stuck in the fanart section most probably. Anyway sign me up NOW.

As someone has already stated Bangel (well if I'm really honest it was Angel) that got me first started on Buffy) I saw him and thought "my god who is this hunk of burning love". Then I really started getting into the programme and developed a great passion for the ship.

Someone stated that their's maybe wasn't a real relationship, in so much that he didn't ask her how her day went, but I pretty much prefer to think that all this was sort of implied/taken for granted that it happened. They were always there for one another, sacrificing one thing or another. Okay they didn't have a conventional falling in love phase that nearly all couples have but I'm one of those soppy gits who kinda believe in love at first sight. Their love was/is eternal as demonstrated through the series. I Will Remember You is one of my favourite episodes from both shows and I still cry when i watch it. Nothing in Spuffy makes me feel like that. Even at the end of season 7 they both still cling to the hope that they can be together. Some of the most touching lines in Buffy have been between those two....the scene in Amends where he says " I want to take comfort in you and I know it will cost me my soul, and a part of me doesn't care" had me in tears and also in Reptile Boy "This isn't some fairy tale. When I kiss you, you don't wake up from a deep sleep and live happily ever after" and Buffy replies "No. When you kiss me I wanna die. " I would love someone to say those kinda things to me....granted it's not gonna happen...I'm not a slayer and my husband isn't a vampire:) But you all know what I mean...you do all know what I mean, right.

I know I'm rambling and making the kinda sense that isn't (god didn't you just love Oz) but when it comes to Bangel I don't seem to be able to string a coherent sentence together. Will be back for some more ramblings:D

[alexa]

I just found this video on YouTube with Sarah and David. They are so cute, Sarah says she hopes that Buffy gets a boyfriend before Angel gets a new girlfriend. Makes me want to watch Angel season one actually..

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=8xvA-EKvsaw&feature=related

Think my favourite Bangel moment is from Angel season One with IWRY.. but if we're talking about BtVS, probably season 2 > 3 > 5 > 1 >7

[Sosa lola]

To my Bangel friends, here's a video I made that features Bangel, I'd love if you watch it and give me your opinions :)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eSha34RxxOo

[vampmogs]

Thought I'd bring this up in the Bangel thread seeing that we've got some pretty big news from Ats After the Fall.

QUESTIONS INVOLVE BIG SPOILERS FOR ATS AFTER THE FALL, DON'T READ IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED!!!

Given the revelation at the end of Issue #3 is there any reason now why people think Buffy/Angel shouldn't be together? Was it always him being a vampire or his curse which was the main factor as why they shouldn't be together or who they were as people? I'm pretty supportive of Buffy/Angel but was glad Angel broke up with Buffy in 'The Prom' and haven't wanted them to get back together since, mainly because of all the reasons he listed in that episode, all the limitations the relationship has.. But now those limitations are gone, Angel can provide those things for her. And I'm thinking mainly of 'IWRY' as an example of how happy and great their relationship could be if Angel was a human, how happy Buffy was. So is there any real reason now that Angel and Buffy shouldn't or couldn't get back together?

Ignore for a moment Buffy being in Scotland and Angel in Hell A, pretend that they could meet up again and if they wanted to, begin a relationship again. Would they? Should they? Was being a vamp and the curse the only thing stopping them having a relationship, the only thing that should stop them?

Ignore the possibilities of other ships for a moment as well, unless you include them because you believe they could be better for Buffy than Angel could be.. and not because you just like the idea of that ship. I'm looking for in-verse reasons here, not personal preferences. :)

[Nina]

I think this is a really difficult question. Partly because I'm kind of subjective because of my Bangel love and partly because I don't know if they stil 'fit'.

I don't have any doubts about their love for eachother, I think that they are still loving eachother more as any other person (in the lover kind of way) and their last meeting in Chosen was full of attraction and love.

But I doubt how well they work together. They both changed and they have different kind of views (see: Faith-arc). Buffy prefers the black-white thinking (although she is seeing the grey-zone in season 8) and Angel is grey all the way. Besides, Angel will never be the happy joyful boyfriend, the guilt will never go away. I don't know if a human Angel will be a normal boyfriend, he has many issues.

And another problem, what if they can't share the fight anymore, what's to share? Angel loves classical music, art, books and speaks many languages ... Buffy isn't in those things ... she likes dancing (something Angel hates) and stuff like that. They don't have much in common if the fight isn't there anymore.

Of course I hope that they will come back together, have many little Buffy's and Angel's and a dog. But I'm not sure if that's realistic.

[KingofCretins]

With regard to "Angel: After the Fall" Chapter 3 and its implications for the 'ship...

Well, now that all logic and reason and hope for Buffy's happiness don't automatically disqualify him (which they did and always will for her and a vampire), there'd still be the question of "is this the best guy?" That's very much open to debate.

Nina is hinting at something that's important -- these two have changed *so* much. The fact that they, without knowing anything but what they remember, tripped and fell against each other's faces in "End of Days" doesn't change that. If someone were to laundry list *everything* Angel's been into since the last time we know that Buffy actually learned anything about his world ("Sanctuary" -- none of their subsequent meetings revealed anything about him. We don't even have textual conversation that she knows about Connor, let alone about Darla.), it's perfectly reasonable to wonder if Buffy could ever look at him the same.

And the reverse is also true. If Angel knew *everything* about Buffy's affair with Spike, knew everything she did and didn't do from the time they met in Season 6 through now in Season 8, would he still see what he saw in her outside Hemery?

Personally, I don't think they would -- it would strain credulity for them to just fall happily and nonchalantly into each other's arms just because of this change. I'm hoping that the events of Season 8 would force Angel to be Oz in a Buffy/Xander version of "New Moon Rising" ;)

[Ehlwyen]

Please use spoiler tags when posting about the comics. They are only recently released and not everyone is able to buy them immediately after being released. It's not fair for members to pop in here looking for general Bangel chat and be spoiled.

Since I'm not current on the comics and behind a couple of releases I didn't read the above replies to see if they said anything spoilery. Please add spoiler tags if you refered to anything spoilery. And before the spoiler tag put a RE: Spoiler Angel After the Fall Comic.

[Nina]

I was thinking about my points earlier this evening;

About the big changes in both their lives. I still think this can be a problem but it could also be a good thing.

Buffy never understood Angel, and she was kind of romanticising Angel and trying to forget about his darker side. Maybe after everything, she finally can see who he really is and accept that.

And Buffy is less pure and innocent, that is for Angel maybe a reason to open up more and show more of himself. Because he is worthy enough. Besides, Angel is less weird. He jokes more and he has friends and an own life.

Maybe their changes are a good thing, maybe a bad thing and maybe both.

[basakbangel]

I watched Enemies, last night and thought that Faith loves Angel, and she feels strong and weak at the same time when she is with him. But our boy Angel loves Buffy and I felt great that Angel once said his feelings directly.

I also think that Angel is very deep and he is gappy with experssing his feelings unlike Spike. I wondering "lots of people thinks that Spike loved Buffy more than Angel" statemant is because of Angel's not talking and not telling his feelings like he feels and Spike tell every minute and some people get satisfied with words.

[vampmogs]

I actually think it's just another one of their "macho pissing contests" between the two characters, to be rather blunt. There's enough textual evidence to support the idea that Angel loved Buffy as fully as he could have. There's also plenty of evidence to demonstrate that Angel's love for Buffy completely changed his life as much as it did Spikes.

Spike expresses it more, but Angel does express it you believe it wholeheartedly. You have to look a bit deeper with it for Angel, but it's easy to see if you actually want to look. Some people just don't want to for obvious reasons IMO.

They both loved her, she both changed their lives, neither one has gotten over her.

[alexa]

I tried posting this a while ago, but it disappeared into cyber space. Hopefully it'll stay here this time.

Vote for Buffy/Angel in TV couples poll
Bangel hazzah! (http://www.tvguide.com/special/valentines08/vote.aspx)

[Sassy]

I tried posting this a while ago, but it disappeared into cyber space. Hopefully it'll stay here this time.

Vote for Buffy/Angel in TV couples poll
Bangel hazzah! (http://www.tvguide.com/special/valentines08/vote.aspx)

Thank you for telling us about that. Buffy and Angel won with 34%

Thought I'd bring this up in the Bangel thread seeing that we've got some pretty big news from Ats After the Fall.

QUESTIONS INVOLVE BIG SPOILERS FOR ATS AFTER THE FALL, DON'T READ IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED!!!

Given the revelation at the end of Issue #3 is there any reason now why people think Buffy/Angel shouldn't be together? Was it always him being a vampire or his curse which was the main factor as why they shouldn't be together or who they were as people? I'm pretty supportive of Buffy/Angel but was glad Angel broke up with Buffy in 'The Prom' and haven't wanted them to get back together since, mainly because of all the reasons he listed in that episode, all the limitations the relationship has.. But now those limitations are gone, Angel can provide those things for her. And I'm thinking mainly of 'IWRY' as an example of how happy and great their relationship could be if Angel was a human, how happy Buffy was. So is there any real reason now that Angel and Buffy shouldn't or couldn't get back together?

Ignore for a moment Buffy being in Scotland and Angel in Hell A, pretend that they could meet up again and if they wanted to, begin a relationship again. Would they? Should they? Was being a vamp and the curse the only thing stopping them having a relationship, the only thing that should stop them?

Ignore the possibilities of other ships for a moment as well, unless you include them because you believe they could be better for Buffy than Angel could be.. and not because you just like the idea of that ship. I'm looking for in-verse reasons here, not personal preferences. :)

I think that Buffy and Angel would have a lot to work through, if they did deside to get back to gether. Even with him not being a vampire. They don't really know each other anymore. Do I think they could get back together at some point? Yes, and I'd like them to. Do I see it happening? No, I think both vamp ships are over for the most part. However, considering Andrew'snobody in our camp trusts you anymore. Nobody. You work for Wolfram & Hart. Don't fool yourself... we're not on the same side. That definetly needs to be worked through.

[vampmogs]

I agree that they'll still need a lot to work through.

However, on the topic of Andrew's "No body in our camp trusts you anymore" from Ats s5 'Damage.'

We've seen now in Buffy Season 8 that Buffy has done some morally grey things herself, including a bank robbery to fund her slayer organisation. Seeing as it would be a tad hypercritical for Buffy to give Angel heaps of sh#t for joining Wolfram and Hart, this may in fact be something they have in common now, rather than an obstacle.

[basakbangel]

Thank you for telling us about that. Buffy and Angel won with 34%

:)

Thanks for letting us know! Oh... I hope I could vote, Ok, whatever Buffy and Angel won. There were also lots of polls in lots of other sites, I'll look if I can find more...and post the link here.

[alexa]

Thought I'd revive this thread. Is everyone here reading season 8 and or After the Fall?
We know for sure that the ATF story doesn't collide with Buffy's at all after comments by Lynch, but seems to me Joss is leaving it open for an appearance by either Angel or Spike. I think they could make a real impact on the story if and when they are brought in.. plus I'd just love to see them in her world for a little while. Don't really care about the Spuffy v Bangel thing, the characters are too awesome together just to not have them in the same room.

Anyway if they appear I can see Joss putting them in the final arc.. although personally I'd love to see them before.. and maybe not together. Although it has been a long time since we've had Buffy/Angel/Spike having a conversation together, could be funny. Think the last time was in season 3 BtVS Lovers Walk...'You'll be in love till it kills you both' :heart:

[Nina]

I read both (although, I'm behind with Buffy) ... and I'm not against cross-overs but I don't like Anngel and Spike when they are all about Buffy. It always ends with more questions and petty vampires who look stupid when Buffy moves on. It annoys me.

I'm okay with Angel and Spike in season 8, but without the jealous ex-boyfriend thing. Let those two guys move on please. Angel already moved on in Ats season 3 ... but they seem to forget that everytime when he has to deal with the Buffy and Spike issue. Angel can be petty, but he is not 4 years old.

Nope, I'm no fan of the petty vampires. They can be fun, but they shouldn't do it too long and too much. I kind of destroys those two characters. My hate for tGiQ is well known, I hated it when Angel was crying because Buffy moved on while he is planning a big fight, has a girlfriend, just lost a good friend and let not start about his best friend Wesley who needed him more than Buffy. Gah!

[kana]

Random question but do you think Buffy ever read that poetry book that Angel got for her birthday?

[Nina]

I have no idea, but I like to think that she did ... or at least started with reading. I can see her reading it in the summer between season 3 and 4 when she missed Angel.

[vampmogs]

I have no idea, but I like to think that she did ... or at least started with reading. I can see her reading it in the summer between season 3 and 4 when she missed Angel.

Well she did say she liked poetry in 'Tough Love' so it's possible that she began reading it!

I'll post some new questions here to keep the thread going as it hasn't had much activity of late;

1) In your opinion what's Buffy/Angel's biggest flaw as a couple?

2) Do you believe Buffy and Angel have a lot in common, or do you still it's just the love that kept them together and not general interests, opinions or habits?

3) How do you think Angel viewed Buffy during his Darla saga and later his feelings for Cordelia? We see in 'Chosen' and in Ats s5 that he obviously still cares for her and even wanted to know if they could still have a shot. Do you believe Buffy was the unattainable one he wanted to be with all along, do you feel he'd have chosen Cordelia over Buffy if he'd had that option, or do you believe Buffy's just a fond memory he keeps getting drawn back to?

4) Do you think Buffy may have ever still wished Angel had stayed whilst in another relationship, in particular Ruffy (mainly because of Riley's own insecurities on the topic.)

5) There's been a number of comments over time, such as Joss Whedons "Buffy and Angel transcends everything" remark at the time 'Chosen' aired, or the shooting script for 'All the Way' which states Anya's "the one person you're meant to be with, how often does the universe allow that to happen" hit Buffy right in 'the Buffy/Angel jugular' that perhaps indicate from a creative standpoint, that Buffy and Angel were meant to be, but only couldn't be together because of their circumstances. Do you believe this to be true? Do you believe in the notion of two people who are "meant to be together" or do you view Angel and Buffy just like any other couple with no greater significance to each other than Buffy/Riley or Buffy/Spike?

Non Buffy/Angel fans feel free to answer, as well as non Bangel shippers and Bangel shippers, it’d be great to get a big variation of answers!

[Nina]

1) In your opinion what's Buffy/Angel's biggest flaw as a couple?
Their biggest flaw in my opinion, is that they did only a few normal things. Angel is maybe a vampire, but they could go more often to the movie, or rent one. Talk about ordinary things. etc. Maybe they did, and we only saw their angsty scenes ... but I would love to see them doing more normal things ...

And the fact that it was all about Buffy, I know ... her series. But a little bit Angel story wouldn't be wrong.

2) Do you believe Buffy and Angel have a lot in common, or do you still it's just the love that kept them together and not general interests, opinions or habits?
Their characters are very different. Angel is quiet, shy, reads a lot, loves to learn and he prefers a few people more than a big party. Buffy is spontaneous, loves to dance ... has not the patience Angel has etc. But they share a lot as well, they share a dream/view, they can understand eachother in a way others can't ... they both love to be 'special', but not in the way they are special. They like nice clothes, pretty things etc. And they are both some kind of martyrs, have trouble with listening to others and they can be both incredible petty and jealous.
They are different, but not too different, and they look every season a little bit more like eachother, Buffy is starting to be calmer and Angel starts showing his real (funny) face.

3) How do you think Angel viewed Buffy during his Darla saga and later his feelings for Cordelia? We see in 'Chosen' and in Ats s5 that he obviously still cares for her and even wanted to know if they could still have a shot. Do you believe Buffy was the unattainable one he wanted to be with all along, do you feel he'd have chosen Cordelia over Buffy if he'd had that option, or do you believe Buffy's just a fond memory he keeps getting drawn back to?
I think this is difficult to answer because I've trouble with the writing. I think that Angel and Buffy will always want eachother one way or another, but I don't think that this will stop them from loving others. I'm not a Cordelia/Angel fan, but I don't doubt his love for her and I don't think it's fair to say that he wanted Buffy all the time he was with Cordelia (or Darla). Sometimes I'm pretty pissed when the writers make Angel incredible petty like in TGIQ or Chosen, petty Angel is funny but it shouldn't be inconsistant with his story.

4) Do you think Buffy may have ever still wished Angel had stayed whilst in another relationship, in particular Ruffy (mainly because of Riley's own insecurities on the topic.)
Buffy has issues with people who leave her, we see this in season 7 as well. So I think that she wanted Angel to stay ... also in 'Forever' we learn that she wants to keep Angel in Sunnydale. But I think that she is grateful as well, she knew that he had to leave and that he was strong enough to do so. I think that she wanted it deep down, but she won't say it.

5) There's been a number of comments over time, such as Joss Whedons "Buffy and Angel transcends everything" remark at the time 'Chosen' aired, or the shooting script for 'All the Way' which states Anya's "the one person you're meant to be with, how often does the universe allow that to happen" hit Buffy right in 'the Buffy/Angel jugular' that perhaps indicate from a creative standpoint, that Buffy and Angel were meant to be, but only couldn't be together because of their circumstances. Do you believe this to be true? Do you believe in the notion of two people who are "meant to be together" or do you view Angel and Buffy just like any other couple with no greater significance to each other than Buffy/Riley or Buffy/Spike?
I love Plato's view on soulmates, and I like to use it in tv series, books or movies. In real life, I don't believe in 'the one'.
Angel and Buffy are soulmates in my opinion, despite their problems. And in a perfect world, they would be together. But the world isn't perfect. But I want to say as well, you can be happy without 'the one' as well. If they don't end up together, it doesn't mean that they won't be happy.
But yes, I love to call Angel and Buffy 'soulmates', it gives the series, the relationship and the characters something extra ... it's more mythic or legandary if they are soulmates.

[vampmogs]

Thanks for the answers Nina :)


Their biggest flaw in my opinion, is that they did only a few normal things. Angel is maybe a vampire, but they could go more often to the movie, or rent one. Talk about ordinary things. etc. Maybe they did, and we only saw their angsty scenes ... but I would love to see them doing more normal things ...

And the fact that it was all about Buffy, I know ... her series. But a little bit Angel story wouldn't be wrong.

I agree to an extent. I think the writers strived very hard in both Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike to be epic that it's to be expected we wouldn't have had scenes of them doing very normal things together. Which is probably when we do see a bit of normalcy in either relationship it's a moment that usually hits a fans radar. As for example the very normal and casual, yet poignant moment, of Buffy and Angel giving each other a peck on the lips in 'Bad Girls' before parting. It looked so casual, it melded, something so normal can stand out and be appreciated. For Buffy/Spike, I'd probably say doing some shots together in 'Life Serial' though I don't enjoy the episode very much, I do appreciate the normalcy at least.

They are different, but not too different, and they look every season a little bit more like eachother, Buffy is starting to be calmer and Angel starts showing his real (funny) face.

That's a really interesting point, I've actually never noticed that before. Nice observation. :)

There's definitely similarities between Buffy and Angel, in fact I think their similarities came out more since they separated than when they were together. Probably because, as you say in your post, Angel didn't get a lot of his own story. They both are very natural leaders who take command and as Wesley says to Angel, their purpose unites people to join them. Both are centres of their worlds, almost like a gravitational pull, people circle around them and pulled towards them, they're very rarely the ones being pulled. They both also share the same flaws, the inability to listen, to sometimes stop and think, and yet whilst both can get incredibly grouchy they often both have very soft and tended moments, so they're very alike in that regard.

I think this is difficult to answer because I've trouble with the writing. I think that Angel and Buffy will always want eachother one way or another, but I don't think that this will stop them from loving others.

I agree, in my opinion she hadn't reached a place where she loved Riley but as she obviously felt as chased after him, she most certainly could. And whilst I don't believe she did love Spike, I think she could have one day. It's most certainly possible for either of them to love other people.

I'm not a Cordelia/Angel fan, but I don't doubt his love for her and I don't think it's fair to say that he wanted Buffy all the time he was with Cordelia (or Darla).

I actually don't believe he loved Darla. He states it himself he didn't without a soul, he didn't feel he was capable of love without a soul. I actually see somewhat, parallels between Buffy/Spike and Angel/Darla in parts of s2 and s3 of Ats and s7 of Buffy. Buffy felt guilty and responsible for what happened to Spike, he went and got his soul for her. I feel the same way with Angel and Darla. Angel feels almost as if he got Darla pregnant, as if he owes her something in s2, he's even willing to give up his own life in 'The Trial.' He feels responsible for her, the same way Buffy felt responsible for Spike. And whilst I believe Buffy and Angel both cared for Darla and Spike, that much was obvious, I actually never felt they loved them. I really don't enjoy Angel/Cordelia, I felt it was incredibly forced and didn't feel natural for me, aside from 'You're Welcome' I really didn't enjoy it that much. But I'd find it hard for anyone to deny they loved each other when there's textual confirmation from both sides that they did, it was never meant to be ambiguous. I don't like it, but I accept it.

Buffy has issues with people who leave her, we see this in season 7 as well. So I think that she wanted Angel to stay ... also in 'Forever' we learn that she wants to keep Angel in Sunnydale. But I think that she is grateful as well, she knew that he had to leave and that he was strong enough to do so. I think that she wanted it deep down, but she won't say it.

I think Angel definitely left an impact on Buffy in more ways than one. Both Riley and Spike felt as if they were under Angel's shadow. Riley feels insecure because he's a "civilian" and Spike saw how much Buffy and Angel loved each other, he said it himself in 'Lovers Walk' about them never being friends and loving each other until it kills them both. And you have comments made by Buffy to Spike such as "One vampire got my hot, just one. But he's gone, you're just, you're just convenient" which definitely must sting. And Buffy does have issues with people leaving her, and she's never been as passionate and open with her boyfriends since Angel left.

I love Plato's view on soulmates, and I like to use it in tv series, books or movies. In real life, I don't believe in 'the one'.
Angel and Buffy are soulmates in my opinion, despite their problems. And in a perfect world, they would be together. But the world isn't perfect. But I want to say as well, you can be happy without 'the one' as well. If they don't end up together, it doesn't mean that they won't be happy.
But yes, I love to call Angel and Buffy 'soulmates', it gives the series, the relationship and the characters something extra ... it's more mythic or legandary if they are soulmates.

I think their relationship only works in many ways, if you view them as soul mates. That's supposed to be the big Romeo and Juliet tragedy of it all, their soul mates, they're meant to be together, but "how often does the universe allow that to happen." I really don't know if I believe in the notion of soul mates in the real world, I most certainly think people are meant to be together but then I'm not sure they couldn't find somebody else somewhere on this planet they are equally meant to be with either. But for fiction I have no problems with the concept, especially in a show called 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer.' I think the writers made an effort at times to try and depict them in this way. And that’s meant in no disrespect to her other relationships, but I believe that every relationship was designed to be different, and this was just one thing that made Buffy/Angel unique, just like there is equally unique things about Buffy/Riley and Buffy/Spike.

[Enisy]

As I said on another forum: The whole "soulmates" / "love of a lifetime" / "destined" / "true love" / "Kyrumption" / "Moira" labeling is one of the few things I dislike about the Buffyverse. All of Angel's main 'ships (Angel/Darla, Angel/Buffy and Angel/Cordelia) were marketed as such by the writers, the actors or the onscreen material at one point or another, so how much weight can those terms hold, really? And Joss called Tara "Willow's one true love", but she's dead now, most likely irreversibly -- would people really prefer to see Willow alone and miserable, than happy with a girl besides her alleged "soulmate"? And Spike feels Buffy is his "soulmate", but wouldn't it be a tad too Daniel Bedingfield for it to work one-way ("If I'm not made for you, then why does my heart tell me that I am")? I mostly opt to dismiss those labels as trite storytelling techniques.

I won't answer the other questions, because I don't want to shower you with negativity. :) Here are a couple more:

Favourite VIP quote about Angel/Buffy?

Best line delivery in an Angel/Buffy scene from David Boreanaz? From Sarah Michelle Gellar?

[vampmogs]

As I said on another forum: The whole "soulmates" / "love of a lifetime" / "destined" / "true love" / "Kyrumption" / "Moira" labeling is one of the few things I dislike about the Buffyverse.

I feel it gives a certain poetic and epic feel to the whole universe, which is probably why I enjoy it. To an extent, if it gets banded around too much I agree it becomes rather tiresome.

All of Angel's main 'ships (Angel/Darla, Angel/Buffy and Angel/Cordelia) were marketed as such by the writers, the actors or the onscreen material at one point or another, so how much weight can those terms hold, really?

I wasn't actually aware that Angel's other relationships were marketed in such a way as I don't often look up quotes on the subject but I agree that it would become rather pointless to market each of his relationships in such a way.

I held it's importance in regard to Buffy/Angel as to how their relationship was still called back on through the series after Angel had left. As I mentioned there are subtle references in the shooting script for 'As You Were' and Joss' comments around 'Chosen' and it's initial airing which I was aware of, and the constant call backs in the series. As for example Buffy's real first sign of any emotion in season six when she gets a phone call from Angel in 'Flooded' or episodes like 'Forever' when they're still at that place of wanting to be together, but nothing's change and they can't. It just seems like it’s always brought up and some point in the series, Spike brought it up whilst under the spell in ‘Something Blue,’ Riley had insecurities about it in late s4 and s5, Buffy referenced it season five during ‘The Gift’ and again in season 6 to Spike and then referenced it again in ‘Selfless’ in s7.

Personally, I can't form an opinion on wether or not they were soul mates or not, I think it does work from a creative standpoint to fluctuate the tragedy and epic-ness of their relationship. The reason I asked it is mainly because I feel at times the writers seemed to work that idea into the stories, very subtly though, probably for good reason and wether or not people felt that or didn’t.

And Joss called Tara "Willow's one true love", but she's dead now, most likely irreversibly -- would people really prefer to see Willow alone and miserable, than happy with a girl besides her alleged "soulmate"?

Nup. But I agree with Nina that just because someone can be described as soul mates, it doesn't mean they can be genuinely happy in another relationship.

And Spike feels Buffy is his "soulmate", but wouldn't it be a tad too Daniel Bedingfield for it to work one-way ("If I'm not made for you, then why does my heart tell me that I am")? I mostly opt to dismiss those labels as trite storytelling techniques.

I actually like that :) It's obviously different for every person, but I always felt that each relationship of Buffy's was supposed to represent a different kind of relationship. Buffy/Angel was the soul mates, the romance that was meant to be but the universe wouldn't allow it. Buffy/Riley was the everyday romance, 'Buffy the Vampire Slayers' take of a normal relationship, and Spuffy was the representation of unreciprocated love, very much the "If I'm not made for you, then why does my heart tell me that I am" even if both characters probably wished it wasn't.

I won't answer the other questions, because I don't want to shower you with negativity. :) Here are a couple more:

:roll: Thanks for coming in here and getting in on the discussion though :)

Favourite VIP quote about Angel/Buffy?

I like this one because it demonstrates the significance their relationship had on Angel;

"How Buffy and Angel met is complicated. In the series, they meet in the very first episode. When she first moves to Sunnydle, he presents himself as a mysterious stranger. And it is sometime before she finds out he is actually a vampire. We later learn that he had actually seen her years before this and had sort of fallen in love with her from afar and that?s what inspired him to become the man he became, the evil fighting, cool, guy in the excellent suit. " Joss Whedon- Becoming Parts 1&2 Commentary on the Buffy Season 2 DVD.

And,

"The outside world is what kept Buffy and Angel from being together." -Jane Espenson

Mainly because I like the tragedy of it. From a storytelling perspective I think it’s solid gold. You can keep going back to that, whereas if a relationship ends with both characters coming to realise they don’t really love each other it’d be pretty hard to convince anyone it was worthwhile revisiting it.


Best line delivery in an Angel/Buffy scene from David Boreanaz? From Sarah Michelle Gellar?

From Sarah Michelle Gellar: Easily her “close your eyes” in ‘Becoming II’ or her “I won’t let you die!’ in Graduation Day II. She manages to convey so much emotion through those deliveries, her “close your eyes” is just wonderful, you hear her voice almost about to break but you can hear she’s keeping it in, and you can hear a sense of guilt and dread for what she’s about to do. And her “I won’t let you die” is just ferocious, it’s the exact opposite from ‘Becoming II’ where she succumbs to it, whereas in this case she won’t, polar opposites and I think both work wonderfully. They’re both very intense.

For David: It sounds silly but probably his “It’s been a long time when anyone’s been in a position to let me know.” If we’re going entirely on delivery and not delivery and how he expresses it with his face, I’d say that line. I always smirk when I hear him say that, it’s got a playful sneakiness to do and at the same time a little self mocking as well, because as we later learn he’s been a loner for a long while up until that point.


What's your favourite scene between Buffy/Angel

What's your least favourite scene about Buffy/Angel

Do you think Angelus loved Buffy, or was just obsessed by her? And was Faith's assessment of Buffy right in 'Consequences' when she says that Buffy dug him when he went psycho, that she enjoyed the sex and danger?

[Enisy]

See, some of these I can answer. It was the "biggest flaw" question and the "do they have a lot in common" question that I would give unfairly negative answers to. :)

Re: Spike/Buffy, you know I'm a sucker for unrequited love, I just play the cynic here. *g*

Favourite VIP quote about Angel/Buffy?

David Fury: Angel and Buffy cannot be together because it's the sweet torture of their doomed relationship that makes us care. Desiring something forever out of reach makes their relationship epic... like Cathy and Heathcliffe (not the single chick and the cat from the comics).
Romeo and Juliet would never have been a play if their love wasn't doomed. If they lived happily ever after, all our longing for them to live happily ever after, to somehow beat fate, would evaporate and we'd all be left unsatisfied. Well, me, anyway.

Best line delivery in an Angel/Buffy scene from David Boreanaz? From Sarah Michelle Gellar?

Sarah's is definitely "A minute? No, it's not enough time...!" from I Will Remember You. I have been known to tear up in that scene. David's case is considerably tougher, since, as per his own words, he "didn't know what the hell he was doing" in his Buffy years. I guess I'll go with " I... I feel like I haven't seen you in months. Oh my God, everything's so muddled, I..."

What's your favourite scene between Buffy/Angel?

Their last minute together in I Will Remember You, by far.

What's your least favourite scene between Buffy/Angel?

Either the Instant Love in Angel or the "When you kiss me I want to die" in Reptile Boy.

[Nina]

I'm bad with quotes, especially outside the shows. I rarely read interviews or listen to the commentaries ... so I can't answer that one.

About the quotes from shows; I like Buffy's "I didn't even notice." from What's my Line when she is touching Angel's gameface.
Angel is more difficult, but I think that I'll go for "That I'm okay. That losing Buffy didn't kill me. That I could deal with it. - In all those years - no one ever mattered. Not like she did. - And now she's gone - forever." from Heartthrob. I know ... not an Angel & Buffy scene ... but it was about Buffy ... does that count? If not, I'm going for "Oh, and . . . Riley. I don't like him.".

What's your favourite scene between Buffy/Angel
When he showed up at the prom anyway.

What's your least favourite scene about Buffy/Angel
"When you kiss me, I want to die" :err:

Do you think Angelus loved Buffy, or was just obsessed by her? And was Faith's assessment of Buffy right in 'Consequences' when she says that Buffy dug him when he went psycho, that she enjoyed the sex and danger?
Angelus can't love, I think that Angel's feelings got twisted into something ugly and scary. Angelus didn't know what to do with Buffy, he hated her because she made Angel feel human but he was attracted to her as well. He couldn't kill her ... he couldn't really hurt her. Everything was big talk and I doubt that he would've killed s