Undeniable Chemistry - The Spuffy Shippers Union!

[Cori]

This is the spanking new thread for the Spuffy club! :D

Since there is already a Bangel club thread on this forum, I thought I'd start a Spuffy one here as well.

I will set up a new member list below. If you would like to become a member of this club and are not on the list, pm me and I will put your name on it.

1. Cori
2. ThePoet's<3
3. Dorian's Kitten
4. Francy
5. sherrilina
6. Ravynnia
7. Paradise
8. spike4buffy
9. some spykie ship
10. selenspuffy
11. spuffbeste
12. Nostalgia
13. Elsa
14. Enisy
15. molly13
16. missperoxide

Okay you crazy shippers, let's get the Spuffy discussion going again! :)

[Dorian's Kitten]

So I thought I'd start us off with some chat about our favorite Spuffy moments. Which ones do you love? Do you prefer pre-soul or post-soul? Do you like the fighting or are you a sucker for the sweet stuff? Sexy much?

I've been thinking about how much I like some of the quieter moments. The little looks and such. Potential is great for that stuff, I love Buffy and Spike training the girls. The opening scene where Buffy is worried that Spike is hurt is so sweet and I love when they exchange that knowing and amused look when they take the potentials to the bar. I think I just love the place they are relationshipwise at that point: Sweet, comfortable, romantic. I also think those scenes are the ones that really show why Spuffy could work.

[ThePoet's<3]

I like BOTH! I like the physicallity of the pre-soul moments and I like the tenderness of post-soul moments. Which I think is why both Seasons left me wanting more of the aspects of the other.

Pre-soul reminded me of how many relationships start out all hot and steamy. But as great as the sex can be there has to be a connection for the relationship itself to continue - especially for women . Which is funny to me that it is Spike who wants a "Re-LAAAAAAY-tionship" :D. But I found myself wanting to see them curled up in each other's arms after a great night of sex. So often you will notice that they have no moments of closeness afterwards .
Post-soul was about connecting on that level. Here's all the cuddling, tender touches, pretty words, long romantic looks into each other's eyes - but no sex.

It could have gone quite badly for Spuffy once Spike returned post-soul. But once the SEX was out of the way, it gave them a chance to connect on a deeper level as beings. And once that happened they could have just looked at each other and went - "meh - nothing there for me". But the depth of the relationship began here and that's why I think it would have been beautiful given more time.

I do hope at some point there is some kind of reunion between Spike and Buffy. It wouldn't be the dream relationship but something they could work out between them. Fight a little evil, come back for some relationship time, fight a little evil, come back for a little relationship time, etc. Either that or they give Spike a great partnership with another very powerful woman who can love him.

I 'Ship Spike more than Spuffy. But of all the relationships I liked Spuffy the best.

[Dorian's Kitten]

I
So often you will notice that they have no moments of closeness afterwards .


But didn't you get the impression that Spike wanted that from Buffy and she wasn't willing to give it. He seems to be all there for the cuddling and hanging out part. She just can't let it get that real.

I too hope there will be something more for us Spuffy fans and I too ship Spike more than Spuffy. I would be cool with him getting love from elsewhere if they would just be nice to him. (He brings out maternal-"oh poor baby" instincts for me.)

[KingofCretins]

Kitten, you know, most comic stores will offer a pull-out service :)

[ThePoet's<3]

Kitten, you know, most comic stores will offer a pull-out service :)

This is true - I got my email yesterday from the comic store I do business with that it will be available next Wednesday for me. I think as long as they know you will be a reliable and repeat customer they are happy to do business with you. They know that comic lovers hang on the next issue.

Another thing I liked about Spuffy that most people didn't like about Season 7 was how she depended on Spike so much. I know many hated that she seem to choose him over the Scoobies and Giles at times, but I when I watched it, it was more like "who here knows me most honestly"? And that seems to be Spike. At that point - as he said in Chosen - he had seen both the best and worst of her.

The Scoobies were her dear, devoted friends. But I know I have been more honest with my lovers than I have my friends. And I think sex is what makes that different. Most of us don't know our friends "that intimately".

You and your friends build a certain type of trust between yourselves that says - "I'm gonna love you know matter what." But sometimes with lovers it's more - "I'm gonna love you know matter what - and I know what matters."

[Dorian's Kitten]

First of thank you KoC, I stopped by the comic place and now have a standing in store subscription. So they will pull one and call me each issue (as though it is possible for me to not remember the day one comes out).:) So now I will never have to worry about them being sold out before I get there again. Ha ha ha ha (think maniacal laugh). It was also very cool for a totally non-Buffy reason. Today I used what will be my new name for the first time. I'm getting married this summer and it just seemed silly to have to change my name with the store so soon so we went with the soon-to-be-name instead. :heart:

Anyway, sorry for the super-long off topic sharing. I too love the relationship they have developed by season seven, I don't think she unfairly favors him over her friends. I know they act like she is and a lot of fans say it, but other then trusting him and not letting anyone kill him, I don't think see it. Her friends and her sister treat her badly, not the other way around. I like that he can support her in a way no one else can. At this point, she really needs to feel like someone loves her unconditionally. So many people are depending on her, she needs someone who she knows will love her even if she screws things up.

[KingofCretins]

I'm getting married this summer and it just seemed silly to have to change my name with the store so soon so we went with the soon-to-be-name instead.

Adorable. Glad I could throw you the useful knowledge about the pull-out, though. Save you some camping, and should guarantee you a first print.

[Superstition.]

Oh guys, new Buffy&Spike vid I made.

It explains how Buffy pushes her feelings for Spike away.
Hope you like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra3wGlKrpDg

[ThePoet's<3]

Today I used what will be my new name for the first time. I'm getting married this summer and it just seemed silly to have to change my name with the store so soon so we went with the soon-to-be-name instead. :heart:

Congratulations Kitten!!! What a wonderful way to "try" out that new name!!

Oh guys, new Buffy&Spike vid I made.

It explains how Buffy pushes her feelings for Spike away.
Hope you like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra3wGlKrpDg

Great Vid Sups!!! LOVED it!!!

It really incorporated what we've been discussing in the Spuffy Thread over at BW. Loved the clips from "Dead Things"!!! It was great to see our discussion coming to life in your video! She can lie to herself all she wants but her feelings for him are the TRUTH. :heart:

[Dorian's Kitten]

So, I've been thinking about why I don't bye into the whole "soul-less Spike didn't really love Buffy because he only had selfish motives" argument. It is a common position; even folks who enjoyed Spuffy frequently suggest he couldn't really love her with out the soul. But I think there are a couple of interesting episodes that suggest Spike's underlying goodness is always there, that it is simply the fact that he is a vampire and knows it (not the absence of a soul) that makes him so...why don't we go with naughty.

In Something Blue, Willow's spell makes Spike and Buffy believe that they are getting married. Everything else is their own creation. The spell didn't say that they had to be in love. They could have believed they were being forced into it. Even this early on Spike believes that if he is marrying someone they must be in love and he must try to protect her and help her friends.

Later on it can be argued that Spike is only helping her friends to get to Buffy, but here (before he even realizes that he wants Buffy) he has her and just believes that helping your girl's friends is what one does.

Later in Tabula Rasa we see who Spike is when he doesn't know. I find it unendingly interesting to see that Spike assumes he fights on the side of good. His natural inclination is be helpful.


Cut to Spike running down the street, still in game face.

SPIKE: Wait up!

He runs up to Buffy, grabs her arm. She turns, grabs his arm with her other hand, flips him over onto the ground. She kneels, straddling him and holding him down.

SPIKE: Bloody hell, what are you doing?
BUFFY: (staring at him, realizing) You don't know who you are.
SPIKE: Right, none of us do, and we're being chased by-
BUFFY: You're a vampire!
SPIKE: (shocked) How can you say - I, me, a vampire? No.
BUFFY: Check the lumpies. And the teeth.

Spike puts his hand up to his face, feels his forehead and teeth. Buffy sits up but remains straddling him. He lifts his head to look at her.

BUFFY: I kill your kind.
SPIKE: And I bite yours. (drops his hand from his face) So how come I don't wanna bite you? (Buffy frowns in confusion) And why am I fightin' other vampires?

Spike gets a look of revelation on his face, lifts himself up onto his elbows.

SPIKE: I must be a noble vampire. (Buffy looks dubious) A good guy. On a mission of redemption. I help the hopeless. (chuckles) I'm a vampire with a soul.
BUFFY: (frowning) A vampire with a soul? (beat) Oh my god, how lame is that?

Spike doesn't realize that he is trying to get Buffy here and he still doesn't feel any desire to bite her. Without the rules of the world at play, it seems that Spike would be good.

[KingofCretins]

I thought that was Spike's subconscious trying to convince him that he's Angel :)

I'm adopted the "reasonable people can have a civil disagreement" approach to the temp forums, so I'm back in the Spuffy thread business. I still feel I should point out that I was *about* the Spuffy for a while there, between "Intervention" and "Tabula Rasa", and he didn't have a soul. But based on subsequent events, and reconsidering prior events, I decided that he wasn't meaningfully "in love" with Buffy at that point. The only thing we have to base the idea that vampires *can* be in love on is Drusilla's saying that vampires "can love very well, but not always wisely". But... that's Drusilla. Darla and Angel and the flashbacks in Angel Season 5 "Destiny" and "The Girl in Question" suggest pretty strongly that they can't *really* be in love in any real way.

[Francy]

I. The only thing we have to base the idea that vampires *can* be in love on is Drusilla's saying that vampires "can love very well, but not always wisely". But... that's Drusilla. Darla and Angel and the flashbacks in Angel Season 5 "Destiny" and "The Girl in Question" suggest pretty strongly that they can't *really* be in love in any real way.

Darla and Angelus couldn't love, but because of who they were, not because they were vampires. James and Elizabeth from Hearthrob, on the other hand, loved each other very much, and they had for centuries. Dru is too crazy to fully love anyone, and Darla and Angelus were maybe two of the most inhumane vampires ever existed, so I think they truly weren't capable of love. But I don't base my view of all vampires on Darla and Angelus, they don't represent the whole race. All vamps are different individuals, like humans (and even animals) are. I strongly believe that, despite lacking a conscience, Spike, James and Elizabeth, and also maybe Harmony, all loved in their own way. The only thing vampires lack is a conscience...but they still have a brain, so they have feelings, like desire, fear, hate, and love.

[Dorian's Kitten]

Maybe Darla and Angel couldn't but I don't think that means Spike couldn't. Keep in mind Spike does many things that Angel wouldn't have. Spike tries to help his Mom; Angel killed his family. Spike spends decades taking care of Dru; Angel and Darla seem quite willing to ditch each other whenever it suits their own needs.

Although it is a problematic reality for Buffy, who needs to believe that when someone is vamped all that they were is gone, it seems that who someone is as a person does help create the vampire they become. Dru,for example, had the sight and the craziness before she was vamped. Angel or Liam, seemed to lack a moral compass, thus Angelus was a truly monstrous vamp. Spike had the undeniable need to be loved and the ability to love without reason or beyond it.

[KingofCretins]

Wasn't the conclusion of "Heartthrob" to undermine James and Elizabeth's notion of love, though?

Angel: "I am okay."

Cordy: "Then - what's the problem?"

Angel: "That I'm okay. That losing Buffy didn't kill me. That I could deal with it. - In all those years - no one ever mattered. Not like she did. - And now she's gone - forever."

Cordy: "And you're still here."

Angel: "Yeah. I just feel like I'm betraying her somehow."

Cordy: "No! If you were a loser, if you were some sick obsessed vampire, you'd go to a Snod demon, or whatever, and get your heart cut out. But you're not! You're a living, breathing... Well, living, anyway - good guy, whose still fighting and trying to help people, and that's not betraying her, that's honoring her."

Angel: "You think?"

Given that he stayed around Sunnydale and meant to honor her, I would have believed that he was genuinely in love with Buffy right up until he established that he didn't love who she was, he loved his gothic vision for her as someone living "in the dark... with (him)". I didn't have any trouble believing that he loved her in Season 7, but by then I couldn't see anyway it could ever be a healthy relationship for her. Of course, I feel that way about her and either vampire.

[Francy]

Wasn't the conclusion of "Heartthrob" to undermine James and Elizabeth's notion of love, though?



Given that he stayed around Sunnydale and meant to honor her, I would have believed that he was genuinely in love with Buffy right up until he established that he didn't love who she was, she loved his gothic vision for her as someone living "in the dark... with (him)". I didn't have any trouble believing that he loved her in Season 7, but by then I couldn't see anyway it could ever be a healthy relationship for her. Of course, I feel that way about her and either vampire.

But noone is saying that the love vampires feel is healthy, or that a relationship between a vampire and a human being can run smoothly....of course it's a destructive love, vampires are demons, and I don't think demons were made to be with humans (at least evil demons). ;) At our eyes, vampires' love is twisted. But it doesn't take away the fact that to them it is love, even though we don't like that kind of love. It's the only kind of love they can feel, and it's not fair to expect from them that they can love selflessly like humans can do (and not all humans can...plenty of human beings are totally uncapable of loving anyone beside themselves). I think that Spike loved Buffy, in season 6, the best way he could. To expect something more than that from him is having unrealistic expectations.
Even with souled Spike (or souled Angel) a relationship with Buffy remains highly problematic, I agree on that.

[Dorian's Kitten]

Given that he stayed around Sunnydale and meant to honor her, I would have believed that he was genuinely in love with Buffy right up until he established that he didn't love who she was, she loved his gothic vision for her as someone living "in the dark... with (him)". I didn't have any trouble believing that he loved her in Season 7, but by then I couldn't see anyway it could ever be a healthy relationship for her. Of course, I feel that way about her and either vampire.

Well you're saying something a bit different here. Not understanding who she is is not the same as not being able to love. Even if the person he was in love with was not actually the person Buffy was, he was able to love and that was the point I was going for.

Although I actually think that he saw her pretty clearly and I don't think he was trying to change her. Yes, he wanted her to let go a bit, but he never tried to convince her not to be the slayer. She was going through dark times and he quite naturally didn't believe "the dark" was a bad place to be. If she hadn't led their relationship to the darkness, I don't think he would have. He was the one that wanted chattiness and snuggles. He was the one that came to her birthday and tried to fit in to her life.

[KingofCretins]

Even with souled Spike (or souled Angel) a relationship with Buffy remains highly problematic, I agree on that.

I wanted to kick the television through the window when she said she didn't "see fat grandchildren in the offing with Spike". No kids, Buffy, means no grandkids. Any grandchildren would mean you adopted as a legally single parent, watched them have kids, and when you're in your 80s, you have this young guy that only visits you after dark.

Although I actually think that he saw her pretty clearly and I don't think he was trying to change her. Yes, he wanted her to let go a bit, but he never tried to convince her not to be the slayer.

To put it in terms covered in "Restless", "Buffy vs. Dracula", and "The Replacement", he rather wanted her to be *only* the Slayer from what I could tell. It was Buffy that he wanted her to stop being. I'm not quite sure he realized who that even was until after he assaulted her in "Seeing Red", which was enough to realize that he needed to become something else, not her.

Valid point about the talking and the party attendance (although his efforts at the party were nominal -- he did try to draw her into a party-abandoning dalliance and vaguely threaten to kill another person there).

[Dorian's Kitten]

I wanted to kick the television through the window when she said she didn't "see fat grandchildren in the offing with Spike". No kids, Buffy, means no grandkids. Any grandchildren would mean you adopted as a legally single parent, watched them have kids, and when you're in your 80s, you have this young guy that only visits you after dark.


I agree that a longterm relationship is unlikely to work out. Though I feel the need to point out that Conner exists so anything is possible is the Buffyverse. But I think it is important to keep the questions: Did he love her? and Would it work out? separate.


To put it in terms covered in "Restless", "Buffy vs. Dracula", and "The Replacement", he rather wanted her to be *only* the Slayer from what I could tell. It was Buffy that he wanted her to stop being. I'm not quite sure he realized who that even was until after he assaulted her in "Seeing Red", which was enough to realize that he needed to become something else, not her.


This is an interesting thought. For a moment I was inclined to agree that Spike really only saw Buffy as "the slayer" since that was the only side of herself that she shared with him.
But I rethought that. Buffy was always different from other slayers. Having friends, being honest with them and sharing her slayerness with them, made her the different one. That's what made Buffy the slayer that changed the world. Spike knew that side of her right away. The first time he saw her she was dancing with friends at the Bronze. He spied on her many times when she wasn't slaying. He hung out with her kid sister and chatted about television shows with her mom. Spike knew the other side of Buffy, it was that side that prevented him from trying to shoot her in Fool for Love, when he found her crying on the porch. It was that side that made him let Glory torture him instead of sharing what he knew about Dawn. He wasn't just trying to help Buffy be "the slayer", he was trying to help her be a sister.

I think Spike saw something in Buffy that was very similar to what he had in himself. That ability to love despite of what they are is something they share.
Yes, Spike knows that being the slayer is a huge part of who Buffy is, but I don't think he ever made the mistake of thinking that was all she was.

[ThePoet's<3]

I'm adopted the "reasonable people can have a civil disagreement" approach to the temp forums, so I'm back in the Spuffy thread business.


So far so good I would say. I don't mind a conversation between people who as you say - can remain civil. But I don't think we need to completely abandon the rules for Ship Threads because the Forum is temporary. ;) Reading through, this has been a very civil exchange of opinions.

So, I've been thinking about why I don't bye into the whole "soul-less Spike didn't really love Buffy because he only had selfish motives" argument. It is a common position; even folks who enjoyed Spuffy frequently suggest he couldn't really love her with out the soul. But I think there are a couple of interesting episodes that suggest Spike's underlying goodness is always there, that it is simply the fact that he is a vampire and knows it (not the absence of a soul) that makes him so...why don't we go with naughty.

I've actually been thinking quite a bit lately about self-interest and love in my own relationships. How does both self-interest and love co-exist positively in a relationship?? Back to that one...

Tabula Rasa is actually one of my favorite episodes because it's basically hitting the "reset" button on the characters and their exeriences. Reducing them all to "square one", how do their individual personalities grow from that point?

Starting with a clean slate we see Willow and Xander paired togetherin the magic shop - as they fell. Willow had a crush on Xander for years! Also at one time entertained some moments of intimacy together. Here is a prime opportunity for them to be coerced in that direction and yet they move in completely oposite directions. (the strange thing is that Xander and Anya don't move towards each other...) But Willow eventually realizes that it's Tara she prefers.

Same with Spike and Buffy. Pushing the reset button they are now reduced to vampire and Slayer. Even talking about how their roles are supposed to exist in this "world". But once again drift into a truce state between them.

Spike is who I find more interesting here because he believes he is a noble vampire. This is my point exactly. Spike has always thought of himself as "different" from other vampires. He has conducted himself many times in ways that do not support vampire "code" as you might say.

He has kept this notion about himself even as a vampire and despite that he is a vampire. Oh make no mistake he has thoroughly enjoyed the vampire side of his un-life but that is because he is a vampire. But he still seems to hold himself a little "better" than other vampires.

He even seems to exist on a different level than the vampires we have had experience with in Buffy's life. I will again bring up the nice comraderie he had with Buffy's mother. His loyalty to Dawn. His basic, "Live and let live" attitude regarding life.

Coming back to self-sacrifice and self-movtivation. There are times when I do things out of my own self-interest and out of love for the other person. I don't see the difference in gaining your soul if that's something that someone you love wants from you as being only "self-interest". The concept of Spike only wanting his soul to "get some" I don't understand. He has already "got some" so it must be more than that.

There's not a lot of difference when an addicted person's spouse tells them they want them to stop drinking. The addicted person will usually tell me they are a)going to do it for the spouse (so she/he will not leave) but b) you help them to see how this also affects their lives. (no more fights about $$, their health, employment,etc) As they recover they begin to see how more and more it's not about what the other person wants, it's about what they want. And yes - that is self-interest and it's GOOD. Because ultimately it starts there first. And recovery works best when there is a support system in place - family, friends, groups.

Spike did have a self-interest in his love for Buffy. But look at how it has turned out for him! In essence she is his support system continually spurring him on to better himself for her out of love. Again, not necessary if what he wanted was to "score" with the Slayer. Why come back with a soul?

Even as humans we can't form relationhips without a small amount of self-interest. It's the motivator that is key. Love is a strong motivator. It is the catalyst so to speak.

[KingofCretins]

So far so good I would say. I don't mind a conversation between people who as you say - can remain civil. But I don't think we need to completely abandon the rules for Ship Threads because the Forum is temporary. Reading through, this has been a very civil exchange of opinions.

I don't participate a lot on the 'ship threads on the main site, but Galathea said above that it was longstanding that people that disagreed were welcome to the thread. To me, there was a specific user causing all the problems that led to the spat on the Spuffy thread a few weeks ago. Plus, we need all the participation we can get on the temp forum :)

[ThePoet's<3]

You sir are a welcome contributor to most threads. Makes you a good mod for your other I'm sure.

I actually like this Temp Forum better than the other... :D

Just want to keep down on the baiting. I've seen ugly things happen on other Forums and I don't want that to happen here or on the other BuffyWorld forum either.

Most Spuffy's are pretty friendly around here... It's just that vampires tend to get us "HOT". Especially one particular vampire...:heart: :D

I want to drop this fan fic off - it's not mine but I read (and cried) through it the other night when I was looking for some fic to read. It's very well-written and it's SPUFFY! :heart:

http://www.loveslastglimpse.com/stone.htm

It's a great read!!

[Dorian's Kitten]

Well I look forward to snuggling up with that fic later on. :)

I want to also commend KoC for the very civil disagreeing. I actually wouldn't find the thread very interesting if everyone always agreed. So please consider yourself welcome here. We should add your name to list in the first post. ;)

[KingofCretins]

You sir are a welcome contributor to most threads. Makes you a good mod for your other I'm sure.

Thanks. I wouldn't get too complementary about my moderating at other sites, though. I moderate a political board on a football site, it's mostly just spamming out infractions :)

I want to also commend KoC for the very civil disagreeing. I actually wouldn't find the thread very interesting if everyone always agreed. So please consider yourself welcome here. We should add your name to list in the first post.

You will always find me willing to civilly disagree about Spuffy :) The part of me that will make a good lawyer figures that if nothing else, it helps you lot hone your insights into romance and companionships if you can defend Spuffy.

I wouldn't go adding my name to that list, though, unless you want me putting you on "Spuffy+Hate" :)

[redrevo]

Tabula Rasa is actually one of my favorite episodes because it's basically hitting the "reset" button on the characters and their exeriences. Reducing them all to "square one", how do their individual personalities grow from that point?

Starting with a clean slate we see Willow and Xander paired togetherin the magic shop - as they fell. Willow had a crush on Xander for years! Also at one time entertained some moments of intimacy together. Here is a prime opportunity for them to be coerced in that direction and yet they move in completely oposite directions. (the strange thing is that Xander and Anya don't move towards each other...) But Willow eventually realizes that it's Tara she prefers.

Same with Spike and Buffy. Pushing the reset button they are now reduced to vampire and Slayer. Even talking about how their roles are supposed to exist in this "world". But once again drift into a truce state between them.

I'd have to say they really weren't starting with clean slates. Either that, or the episode was badly written. See Spike's "Vampires!" line and Buffy's "I must be some kind of superhero or something." Somehow they still have some of their memories. Otherwise no one would know about vampires, even Spike, Anya would not have the sudden urge to take vengeance upon Giles, and Buffy and Dawn would not have the sibling-rivalry attitude you see in their first dialogue. Spike had some memory of not killing Buffy and Buffy had some memory of staking vampires in the heart. So, either they really did have some sort of memories or they really were starting with clean slates (seems a believable because of Giles/Anya and how Willow finds out she's gay) and the episode had several writing screw-ups.

[KingofCretins]

Not to go all cognitive psyche, but there are several different types of memory. Technically, if people had their memory *erased*, they would basically be back to 1 day old, mentally. The gang had their basic semantic memory intact -- they could guess at their identities through contextual clues. And they had a decent amount of emotional memory, because they reacted to things pretty genuinely to who they really were. As far as Buffy figuring she must be "some kind of superhero", that seemed to be pretty much be in response to her feat of superhuman strength and reflex.

As to the major point, I don't think "Tabula Rasa" as a blank slate really validates Spuffy. They weren't actually drawn to each other in any real sense -- They sent "Randy" out because he was the one the vamps wanted, and "Joan" went with him because she was the superhero. I didn't find any of their interactions 'shippy while their memories were erased.

[Dorian's Kitten]

I would have to say that they had a general amnesia about themselves (their identity) but they retained their personalities. Hence Anya's tendency toward vengeance and Buffy's leadership tendencies are seen. They also maintained general knowledge about the world, liked the existence of the idea of vampires and superheros. I don't think that is very unusual for medical cases of amnesia so it seems believable enough to me. I obviously find the episode very well written and important part of any Spuffy discussion.

[KingofCretins]

Like I've said, "Tabula Rasa" is about the last happy look I got at Spuffy. Bravo to the music selection and the beautiful acoustic performance of "Goodbye to You" by the lovely and talented Michelle Branch. When he walks up to her at the bar and she turns away, that is a great moment. If he had really been that guy in the episodes that followed, it would have been better.

Another bit I love from "Tabula Rasa" -- Xander's chivalry.

[Dorian's Kitten]

I didn't find any of their interactions 'shippy while their memories were erased.
I'll just point out a couple of moments:

First for the easy back and forth:
BUFFY: All right. You work on that then. We need to go. Ready, Randy?
SPIKE: Ready, Joan.

Second as evidence that Spike is not only being good as an act in order to get Buffy to sleep with him:

BUFFY: I kill your kind.
SPIKE: And I bite yours. (drops his hand from his face) So how come I don't wanna bite you? (Buffy frowns in confusion) And why am I fightin' other vampires?

The episode is not important so much for romance that occurs sans memories as it is for the look at Spike's and Buffy's psyches.

[KingofCretins]

For argument's sake, he may not have felt like biting Buffy because residual Spike memory told him that would hurt a whole lot, as he did not yet know about Buffy's vulnerability.

I actually love that scene, though. I'm sure the fact that Buffy's on top of him in no way disappoints the Spuffy fans :)

[Dorian's Kitten]

Maybe, but Spike seems to forget about the pain and try stuff he can't do pretty often. That was how he found out about Buffy being vulnerable only a little bit later, he had to try something.

[KingofCretins]

That is a good point, he often forgets himself. I'm not sure if hauling off and slugging Buffy is anything he "had to try", though... and I still find it pretty suspicious that he immediately hid that interesting little discovery from her.

[Mabus]

It still seems to me that there's an interesting contrast between Spike's behavior in "Tabula Rasa" and Angel's in "Spin the Bottle". I've been told by some people that the latter doesn't really count as "amnesia", because they were simply reverted to who they were at 16. That still sounds like amnesia to me, though, if a more limited version.

Specifically, how they react when others discover that they're vampires, and are afraid of them. Spike concludes that he must be an anomaly--a vampire with a soul. Angel decides that if others hate him, he may as well hate them back. To me, that looks quite significant.

[ThePoet's<3]

Yes - in Tabula Rasa they were not reduced to the "beginning" beginning, just a reset on the past few months (seasons?) they had experienced. Like a "do-over" or "mulligan". Doesn't mean you don't know how to play the game anymore but you do get to do that play over! (How's that Sports Fans!??! LOL! :))

And no the "Spuffy" is not there in full force but the intent of taking everything back and "doing it over" is - however, instead of the play coming out different it re-enforced the actual.

And as an aside - I never like when they "hit" each other. But the two of them are "super beings" of a sort. There's a scene between Buffy and Angel where she hit him and then he hits her. She remarks, "You hit me". And he basically says, "Well, not to resort to playground fighting but you hit me first." He also adds, "Besides, you are stronger than me Buffy". So, yes, to us it is "violent" but to them it is part of being a "super being". Still discomforting however. :(

I wouldn't tolerate that line from any guys I know!!! :D

[Dorian's Kitten]

The hitting upsets me also, especially the not-even-really-fighting hitting. I rewatched As You Were today, and I was really irritated when Buffy hit Spike while the two of them were talking to Riley. It was clearly a reaction to her being embarrassed, which is just a horrible reason to be pounding on him. Actually I just find this whole episode heart wrenching. The scene I am currently quoting in my sig just breaks my heart; it is awful watching him get his hopes up knowing that Buffy is only doing it because she is upset to find that Riley is married. He just looks so shocked and vulnerable. Then a few moments later, Riley comes in and he gets to realize that she is still just using him. I almost cried today.

[KingofCretins]

"As You Were" is a difficult episode for Spuffy. I'm thinking specifically of the way in which Buffy was unquestionably about to climb all over Riley until she found out about Sam. Going to Spike after that was the most overtly "for comfort only" sex they had (trivia note: this is also the last time we know for certain that Buffy has had consensual sex). Also, the obvious relief on her face when she walks away. Although it was sweet of her to call him William as a way of treating him like a person.

[ThePoet's<3]

Oh I hate that episode!! :down: it is a miserable episode for everyone! And it's frustrating because it makes no sense to me. :bang: I smelled "set-up" from the beginning! I really liked Riley with Buffy at first. But in this episode I ended up not liking him very much at all - seemed very vindictive. (although the advice he gives Buffy at the end - characters witholding - was very good ;))

And I'm still convinced that Doug Petrie would have never written such an episode unless it was under duress. Which is why it has so much ambiguity built around it.:confused3:

***hands Kitten a tissue*** I hate when she asks him to tell her he loves her and wants her. Validating her worth at the expense of his feelings. Buffy!! Shame on you! He loves you so much!

Don't watch it anymore Kitten - it's distressing... :(

[KingofCretins]

although the advice he gives Buffy at the end - characters witholding - was very good

It's almost as if there was nobody Buffy was close to in Season 6 that was giving her that message :)

I do wonder what about the episode makes little sense, though.

[ThePoet's<3]

Why did everyone think that a vampire living in a crypt with furniture he "dumpster-dived" for had made a deal with the government? Where would Spike get that kind of money?? Do we smell Initiative (Riley) pulling strings to get back at Spike for Spike airing Riley's dirty laundry in "Through the Woods"?

Also, Spike never said he was the Dr. - no he never says he wasn't - but he doesn't look the least bit upset when Buffy enters and starts asking him about the Dr. and instead have sex right there with the eggs below.

If he was the Dr. and knew the eggs were dangerous - loving Buffy the way he did - why would he risk her life that way? I just don't believe he would. He has risk his life to save hers - why suddenly chuck all his good points out the window by having her eaten by baby demons?

Now I'm not saying that Spike may not have been watching the eggs for the Dr. (and might the REAL Dr be Riley himself? Setting Spike up?)but I don't think he had the sophistication to make a deal with a foreign government. (but Riley might...)

There's many other inconsistancies to me - it seems like a big set up from the beginning.

And why didn't Riley tell Buffy he was married?? At the DMP? Or in the car when they were off to hunt the demon??

If you think about this episode with "Through the Woods" in mind - it seems like a ploy from the beginning to "help" Buffy break up with Spike. Spike showed Buffy Riley's dirty laundry and in turn, Riley helped Buffy see Spike's (more) dirty laundry :P.

[KingofCretins]

I think it's unreasonable to suggest that Riley cared enough about Spike to go through that trouble. He could have killed Spike at any time with minimal effort, either before leaving Sunnydale or after coming back. And, while Spike never explicitly admitted what he'd done, he did point out that Buffy "knows who (he) is", that she's always known.

I find it much more likely to put Spike's nonchalance on the belief that Buffy really had bought into Spike just being Spike. As far as putting her in danger... this is the guy that fully intended to feed her to Drusilla, *after* falling 'in love' with her.

I think that Riley's not mentioning his marriage was more about him being all about business -- which is what he said right away. I still find it much more fascinating how unabashedly Buffy was starting to come on to him.

Now, it didn't "make sense" from the standpoint that it just wasn't a great episode, but it wasn't out of character for any of those three -- Riley to be a little condescending, Buffy to be desperately seeking validation, Spike to be concocting a poorly thought out scheme (see also "Halloween", "In the Dark", "The Yoko Factor", "Out of My Mind", "Crush").

[ThePoet's<3]

I think it's unreasonable to suggest that Riley cared enough about Spike to go through that trouble. He could have killed Spike at any time with minimal effort, either before leaving Sunnydale or after coming back. And, while Spike never explicitly admitted what he'd done, he did point out that Buffy "knows who (he) is", that she's always known.

I find it much more likely to put Spike's nonchalance on the belief that Buffy really had bought into Spike just being Spike. As far as putting her in danger... this is the guy that fully intended to feed her to Drusilla, *after* falling 'in love' with her.

I think that Riley's not mentioning his marriage was more about him being all about business -- which is what he said right away. I still find it much more fascinating how unabashedly Buffy was starting to come on to him.

Now, it didn't "make sense" from the standpoint that it just wasn't a great episode, but it wasn't out of character for any of those three -- Riley to be a little condescending, Buffy to be desperately seeking validation, Spike to be concocting a poorly thought out scheme (see also "Halloween", "In the Dark", "The Yoko Factor", "Out of My Mind", "Crush").

I don't think Riley would have had any problems killing Spike - right. But I think he would have a problem with Buffy knowing he had killed Spike. He was going to kill him "Through the Woods" but didn't. And Buffy wasn't even there to stop him. Riley knew that Buffy was "connected" (I say love) with Spike at some point. He even asked her in this episode (AYW)if she wanted Spike killed. And although she was noncommittal, she still didn't say "By all means, stake him"! :D

And you are right - Spike did come up with some pretty good scheme's. He still managed to find all the parts and pieces of the Judge!! Which further validates my point that Spike was never the Doctor. I think Riley set the whole thing up, had someone contact Spike at Willy's Demon Bar -
"Hey some guy said he pay you to watch some eggs for him", and then he brought the whole relationship down with it. He made up the story about a foreign government doing a deal with the Doctor.

The only person who knew about the relationship was Clem. "You and the Slayer break up again"? None of the Scoobies knew. Where would you find Clem?? At Willy's Demon Bar. Could you get Clem to talk?? Riley could. He hung with crowd back in the day.

And yes - all their behaviors were atrocious I think if Riley had let Buffy know if the beginning that he was married, she would never have acted that way.

[Dorian's Kitten]

I don't think that I can really buy into the Riley set-up argument. I wish I could, but...I'm just not seeing it.
I do however, think that The poet's <3 makes a great point about the sudden expectation that Spike would be incapable of pulling of a scheme. Doesn't anyone remember season two? Spike was really a big bad; he brought down the "annoying" one. He was the only vamp we ever saw making tapes and using computers. I think he was a bit too smart to louse up the Dr scheme that bad.

[vampmogs]

As others have said, why would Riley go to all of that trouble just so he could kill Spike when he could have done it any time he wanted without Buffy knowing and at one point even caring? Furthermore, Riley and Sam had been tracking the other demon which came into Sunnydale, which Buffy killed. How did he set all that up?

I think it is really unfair to try and blame Riley for Spike screwing up, Spike did what he usually did, he schemed and it ended badly. As Buffy said, she should have remembered who he was again.

Not to mention that if Riley had planned to set up and dust Spike all along, why would he wait so long after splitting up with Buffy and Sam to go to Spike's crypt to dust him? Also, I'd like to see him explaining to Sam that it was all a set up because he wanted to get back at Spike for ruining his relationship with Buffy.. it'd hardly go down well and I don't think she'd be very supportive.

It makes no sense that Riley would set up this whole plan to kill Spike to end up asking Buffy is she wants him to kill Spike then happily leaving without doing so. It had nothing to do with Riley, Riley is completely innocent in this. He's the good guy remember.

Originally Posted by Dorian's Kitten
I don't think that I can really buy into the Riley set-up argument. I wish I could, but...I'm just not seeing it.
I do however, think that The poet's <3 makes a great point about the sudden expectation that Spike would be incapable of pulling of a scheme. Doesn't anyone remember season two? Spike was really a big bad; he brought down the "annoying" one. He was the only vamp we ever saw making tapes and using computers. I think he was a bit too smart to louse up the Dr scheme that bad.

What plan did Spike execute well?

1)He attacked the school before the Day of St Viegous when the vampires powers would have been at their greatest and as a result ruined all their plans because of his impatience

2)He brought Dru (at this point a defenceless and easy target) with him when he had Buffy trapped with the vamp worshippers and as a result Buffy used her as a way to escape.

3)He confided in Willy the snitch about his wereabouts when stealing Angel to make Dru strong again, which led Buffy, Kendra and the scoobs right to him.

4)He planned to kidnap Willow and make her perform a spell to get Dru back, but ended up going to the slayers home to get supplies.. that isn't going to alert Buffy to the situation or anything!

5)He steals the gem of Amara but then goes out in the daylight with it where if Buffy managed to get the gem off his hand (which she did) he was exposed to the sun and could have dusted there and then.

6) He tries to team up with Adam but screws the plan up royally when he seperates Buffy from her friends but then realises Willow has the disks, hence Buffy won't know the info to get lured into the trap

So I don't really think it is a great surprise he'd try yet another scheme and fail yet again. Spike screwed up, he didn't take care of the eggs properly and they hatched. The whole thing reaked of Spike.

Spike said he was holding the eggs 'for a friend,' this friend could have indeed have been the doctor. Spike could have been the middleman between the doctor and the supplier and the doctor could have had the ties to the military organisations. Might I add this in no way excuses Spike for his actions and the possible reprucussions this could have had for innocent human beings.

The hitting upsets me also, especially the not-even-really-fighting hitting. I rewatched As You Were today, and I was really irritated when Buffy hit Spike while the two of them were talking to Riley. It was clearly a reaction to her being embarrassed, which is just a horrible reason to be pounding on him. Actually I just find this whole episode heart wrenching. The scene I am currently quoting in my sig just breaks my heart; it is awful watching him get his hopes up knowing that Buffy is only doing it because she is upset to find that Riley is married. He just looks so shocked and vulnerable. Then a few moments later, Riley comes in and he gets to realize that she is still just using him. I almost cried today.

I think Buffy hit Spike partly because she was embarrased but also because she was pissed off, he was lying and scheming after constantly saying he was a changed man. I think she would have done a lot worse if she had found out what he tried to do to that innocent girl in Smashed after claiming to have changed. If Buffy had happened to walk through that alley and saw Spike attempt to kill that girl, I wouldn't be surprised if she dusted him right there and then.

Originally Posted by The Poets <3
If he was the Dr. and knew the eggs were dangerous - loving Buffy the way he did - why would he risk her life that way? I just don't believe he would. He has risk his life to save hers - why suddenly chuck all his good points out the window by having her eaten by baby demons?

Spike risked it all when he allowed Dru to kill those people and then he fed off them in Crush and he risked it all in Smashed when he tried to kill that innocent girl. Why is it so hard to believe he'd risk it all again with the demon eggs?

[ThePoet's<3]

As others have said, why would Riley go to all of that trouble just so he could kill Spike when he could have done it any time he wanted without Buffy knowing and at one point even caring? Furthermore, Riley and Sam had been tracking the other demon which came into Sunnydale, which Buffy killed. How did he set all that up?
I don't think Riley would kill Spike. As you say, he had many times to do it and never did. I think that had a lot to do with Buffy. At Giles's house when Riley suddenly found out that the Scoobies and Buffy had been hiding Spike - Riley was angry. But they let him know that he was not to hurt him. I believe he knew that Spike was not to be touched.

The demon - well - one thing - how did that demon that causes a desolation wherever it goes get to Sunnydale w/o a lot more people dying? Also, Riley works for the Initiative. They captured demons.

I think it is really unfair to try and blame Riley for Spike screwing up, Spike did what he usually did, he schemed and it ended badly. As Buffy said, she should have remembered who he was again. It's not necessarily blaming Riley for it - giving him credit for it?:) Someone - not Spike - set up the military deal. Yes, I believe someone contacted Spike to babysit the eggs for the doctor.

Not to mention that if Riley had planned to set up and dust Spike all along, why would he wait so long after splitting up with Buffy and Sam to go to Spike's crypt to dust him? Also, I'd like to see him explaining to Sam that it was all a set up because he wanted to get back at Spike for ruining his relationship with Buffy.. it'd hardly go down well and I don't think she'd be very supportive.
Because he said he was going to check out some bars and some crypts he knew. The bar was Willy's demon Bar. Check there first. Find Clem. Put the pressure on Clem - "Where's Spike"? Have you checked his crypt? "I'm on my way there now." He's been hanging out there more since he and the Slayer are having a thing. "The Slayer and Spike are having a thing?" Yes. Head for the crypt.

It makes no sense that Riley would set up this whole plan to kill Spike to end up asking Buffy is she wants him to kill Spike then happily leaving without doing so. It had nothing to do with Riley, Riley is completely innocent in this. He's the good guy remember.
See, I don't believe he meant to kill Spike. But if it happened - oh well!:) I think he wanted to feel out Buffy first. Notice how he's not the least bit surprised when he opens the crypt and finds Buffy and Spike together? No "OMG - Buffy!" or "Get away from her you fiend" or "EW I think I'm gonna be sick". ;) Why no surprise? Could it be he already knew it was going on?
What plan did Spike execute well?

1)He attacked the school before the Day of St Viegous when the vampires powers would have been at their greatest and as a result ruined all their plans because of his impatience

2)He brought Dru (at this point a defenceless and easy target) with him when he had Buffy trapped with the vamp worshippers and as a result Buffy used her as a way to escape. Most of these schemes were pretty well thought out - he just never took in account a Slayer with family and friends. The St. Viegous one might have worked - my guess is that he really didn't think he needed to wait. And that was the first night he met the Slayer - and her family and friends

3)He confided in Willy the snitch about his wereabouts when stealing Angel to make Dru strong again, which led Buffy, Kendra and the scoobs right to him.
True there - there is "no honor among theives" as they say. But he was wise enough to make the deal with the Slayer and escaped with both he and Dru intact - by the Slayer's hand.

4)He planned to kidnap Willow and make her perform a spell to get Dru back, but ended up going to the slayers home to get supplies.. that isn't going to alert Buffy to the situation or anything!

5)He steals the gem of Amara but then goes out in the daylight with it where if Buffy managed to get the gem off his hand (which she did) he was exposed to the sun and could have dusted there and then.

6) He tries to team up with Adam but screws the plan up royally when he seperates Buffy from her friends but then realises Willow has the disks, hence Buffy won't know the info to get lured into the trap
The funny thing about this one - the writers wrote themselves into a corner!!! Watch the DVD commentary to that episode. They realized after they had written all the skillfully planned "twists" that they (the writers) had written Willow in a box!!! SO - they turned around and wrote that into the episode! LOL!! They had Adam bring it up and Spike go - "Oh Buggers" . So, I blame that on the writers. If they couldn't see the flaw in their own writing - how was Spike supposed to know?!? LOL! :D

So I don't really think it is a great surprise he'd try yet another scheme and fail yet again. Spike screwed up, he didn't take care of the eggs properly and they hatched. The whole thing reaked of Spike. Mightn't Spike not have taken care of the eggs properly because he was not told how to take care of them? As in - maybe we don't tell him, they hatch and that's the end of Spike?!

Oops! The Slayer and Spike are having a thing? Better get right over there and rescue the Slayer from being eaten by the baby demons - that were originally supposed to eat Spike!

Spike said he was holding the eggs 'for a friend,' this friend could have indeed have been the doctor. Spike could have been the middleman between the doctor and the supplier and the doctor could have had the ties to the military organisations. Might I add this in no way excuses Spike for his actions and the possible reprucussions this could have had for innocent human beings.
Definitely the middleman. Not the Doctor - whoever that may have been (I just think it's Riley) And no it doesn't excuse that he still did it. But you have to wonder why he did it... This was brought up on the other board and is a good point. Buffy needed money. And maybe this was his way to get money for Buffy. Of course - when I need money I don't go rob a bank. So, a wrong done for the 'right" reasons doesn't make it right.

I think Buffy hit Spike partly because she was embarrased but also because she was pissed off, he was lying and scheming after constantly saying he was a changed man. I think she would have done a lot worse if she had found out what he tried to do to that innocent girl in Smashed after claiming to have changed. If Buffy had happened to walk through that alley and saw Spike attempt to kill that girl, I wouldn't be surprised if she dusted him right there and then.
I think you are right about Buffy hitting Spike out of embarassment. She was re-enforcing to Riley that Spike was just for sex and that was all. Notice she says to Riley "I'm sleeping with him". Not I'm having an affair or a relationship, or I'm in love. She was embarassed that she had let things go as far as she had. (not that I don't think there was more to it than just that)

Spike risked it all when he allowed Dru to kill those people and then he fed off them in Crush and he risked it all in Smashed when he tried to kill that innocent girl. Why is it so hard to believe he'd risk it all again with the demon eggs?

This was all before he slept with her... The intimacy makes it different. As long as she was yanking him around on a string "come here/go away" it was just frustrating him and he wanted an answer. When she made the initiative to sleep with him in Smashed - she made first move - he knew things had become different between them.

BUT - what we see in the episode is what is cannon. All my speculation is just that. But there were so many questions in my head after that episode! It was like I had missed an episode in between and had missing information. The episode really makes no sense other than Buffy and Spike broke up. (and that made no sense to my Spuffy :heart: :) )

[sherrilina]

As to the major point, I don't think "Tabula Rasa" as a blank slate really validates Spuffy. They weren't actually drawn to each other in any real sense -- They sent "Randy" out because he was the one the vamps wanted, and "Joan" went with him because she was the superhero. I didn't find any of their interactions 'shippy while their memories were erased.
What are you talking about--remember her passionate "get away from Randy!"--even when she has no memories (so to speak) she is still protecting him especially, and clearly cares about him. I definitely think it validates Spuffy.

I love Spike's line that makes fun of Angel though...;)

[KingofCretins]

The demon - well - one thing - how did that demon that causes a desolation wherever it goes get to Sunnydale w/o a lot more people dying? Also, Riley works for the Initiative. They captured demons.

The Initiative no longer existed, and the military was out of the demon capturing and experimenting business. This is mentioned in "Into the Woods".

I really don't think there's a case for Riley being part of *any* kind of conspiracy against Spike. Again, why would he care? He clearly didn't know Buffy was sleeping with him until he got to the crypt. I got surprise and disappointment out of that, just professionalism first and foremost. Riley isn't the sort to make a scene.

Vampmogs gets into more detail than I did, but every episode I mention was the example of a Spike plan gone utterly to pot. He is not an evil genius. The mere fact that he uses computers a couple times and a video camera once doesn't change the fact that he's the same guy who hires a *vampire* to get the Gem of Amara for him, that figured he could cattle prod Buffy into a romance, that he could get an ordinary surgeon to remove his chip, etc, etc. I don't see any need to fanwank the demon eggs thing based only on the incompetence with which it was carried out.

I think you are right about Buffy hitting Spike out of embarassment. She was re-enforcing to Riley that Spike was just for sex and that was all. Notice she says to Riley "I'm sleeping with him". Not I'm having an affair or a relationship, or I'm in love. She was embarassed that she had let things go as far as she had. (not that I don't think there was more to it than just that)

Looks like a duck, though. I don't think she'd have even stopped Riley if he had decided to kill Spike in that scene.

What are you talking about--remember her passionate "get away from Randy!"--even when she has no memories (so to speak) she is still protecting him especially, and clearly cares about him. I definitely think it validates Spuffy.

Given the lack of support elsewhere in the episode, I consider that a case of her being protective in general. Wouldn't she have said "get away from Alex!"? Also, you don't pass up a chance to refer to Spike as Randy.

[vampmogs]

Originally Posted by The Poets <3
I don't think Riley would kill Spike. As you say, he had many times to do it and never did. I think that had a lot to do with Buffy. At Giles's house when Riley suddenly found out that the Scoobies and Buffy had been hiding Spike - Riley was angry. But they let him know that he was not to hurt him. I believe he knew that Spike was not to be touched.

Riley isn't a part of the Scoobies anymore, he follows other orders and if he really wanted to kill Spike I think he would have. Buffy even suggests killing Spike in Out of Mind 'for fun' and threatens to do so again, after he plots to remove the chip from his head. Riley isn't afraid of Buffy, he'd kill Spike if he wanted to.

The demon - well - one thing - how did that demon that causes a desolation wherever it goes get to Sunnydale w/o a lot more people dying? Also, Riley works for the Initiative. They captured demons.

We don't know how many people had died as a result of that demon, and we were only told the damage the Sulvati demons could do in packs, not alone. Riley wouldn't set a demon loose that could kill others, himself and Buffy just so he could get back at Spike. Also as KoC points out, the Initiative no longer exists. In the episode Into the Woods the army general makes it quite clear the faction Riley joins doesn't give a damn about 'what makes demons tick,' all they do is wipe them out.

It's not necessarily blaming Riley for it - giving him credit for it? Someone - not Spike - set up the military deal. Yes, I believe someone contacted Spike to babysit the eggs for the doctor.

Wether Spike is actually 'The Doctor' or not, it doesn't change the fact he took part in a plan that had evil intent. Spike obviously had some pretty big part in the plan considering he was handed the responsbility of holding onto the eggs and all of Riley's contacts pointed to Spike.

Because he said he was going to check out some bars and some crypts he knew. The bar was Willy's demon Bar. Check there first. Find Clem. Put the pressure on Clem - "Where's Spike"? Have you checked his crypt? "I'm on my way there now." He's been hanging out there more since he and the Slayer are having a thing. "The Slayer and Spike are having a thing?" Yes. Head for the crypt.

But your theory doesn't make sense? You said Riley conducted this entire thing, which includes luring the demon to Sunnydale so that he could break up Spike and Buffy. However, now you're saying he wouldn't have even found out about Buffy sleeping with Spike until he went searching for the clues at Willie's Bar, which means there is no reason for him to set up the entire thing beforehand. You state,

If you think about this episode with "Through the Woods" in mind - it seems like a ploy from the beginning to "help" Buffy break up with Spike. Spike showed Buffy Riley's dirty laundry and in turn, Riley helped Buffy see Spike's (more) dirty laundry :P.

But if Riley didn't know prior to going to Willies' Bar that Buffy and Spike were sleeping together, then he would have never set up this entire thing to "help Buffy break up with Spike," dating back to first making the Suvalti demon come to Sunnydale, which you claim he did .

Are we also forgetting that Riley loves Sam and has been out of Sunnydale for a long time now, if he really wanted to get Spike back for showing Riley with the vamp he would have done so straight after the incident. Pretending to kill Spike was paying Spike back, he needn't do it a year later.

See, I don't believe he meant to kill Spike. But if it happened - oh well! I think he wanted to feel out Buffy first. Notice how he's not the least bit surprised when he opens the crypt and finds Buffy and Spike together? No "OMG - Buffy!" or "Get away from her you fiend" or "EW I think I'm gonna be sick". Why no surprise? Could it be he already knew it was going on?

Or it could just be that Riley isn't immature enough to go blasting at Buffy about how wrong and disgusting it was. Riley tells Buffy later on in private that he hated seeing her in bed with that idiot, he wasn't going to do it with Spike. The only immature one in the crypt was Spike who tried to rub it in Riley's face he was finally doing it with Buffy.

Most of these schemes were pretty well thought out - he just never took in account a Slayer with family and friends. The St. Viegous one might have worked - my guess is that he really didn't think he needed to wait. And that was the first night he met the Slayer - and her family and friends

Spike didn't think he needed to wait, he was wrong, he didn't wait and hence crappy plan. It is no good saying "it might of worked," a good plan would have worked but Spike's wasn't, he rushed, hence bad plan. Also the excuse that it was the first time he met the slayer really doesn't work when
a) he met her in the alley before that
and b) he should have found out more about her- he didn't- which makes him a bad planner.

True there - there is "no honor among theives" as they say. But he was wise enough to make the deal with the Slayer and escaped with both he and Dru intact - by the Slayer's hand.

Spike wasn't really wise for doing this. It doesn't take a genius to try and side yourself with the strongest person who has similair goals to you. It is common sense to try and get on Buffy's side, the side that won against him constantly. Nor was Spike particularly smart for running away with Dru and leaving Angelus to kill Buffy and open Acathla. Spike says he loves this world, yet he runs off and leaves it to be sucked into Hell, nor would running away do much good when the world is sucked into hell anyway.

The funny thing about this one - the writers wrote themselves into a corner!!! Watch the DVD commentary to that episode. They realized after they had written all the skillfully planned "twists" that they (the writers) had written Willow in a box!!! SO - they turned around and wrote that into the episode! LOL!! They had Adam bring it up and Spike go - "Oh Buggers" . So, I blame that on the writers. If they couldn't see the flaw in their own writing - how was Spike supposed to know?!? LOL!

Season seven was one big flaw, the writers wrote themselves into a corner with the whole uber army, hence they made the ubervamps weaker which wasn't consistent with the plot. This doesn't however change the fact it happened, hence it is canon. The same applies to the situation with Spike, the writers may have indeed wrote themselves into a corner but in the end in canon Spike messed up yet another plan. I don't by using the writers as a way out of everything, what is stopping me from saying the writers screwed up season seven so I don't blame anything any of the characters did that season? It doesn't work, in discussions like these you can't jump in and out of the verse to suit your point.

Mightn't Spike not have taken care of the eggs properly because he was not told how to take care of them? As in - maybe we don't tell him, they hatch and that's the end of Spike?!

I must say I think you are reaching here. Why is it so hard to believe that Spike (a.k.a the evil soulless vampire) was up to some dirty business? Why would anyone go to all this trouble just to kill Spike when as he was chipped they could have done so without Spike being able to defend himself in anyway? Unless for some strange reason the Doctor followed Buffy's moral code about killing a harmless creature [sarcasm]

Oops! The Slayer and Spike are having a thing? Better get right over there and rescue the Slayer from being eaten by the baby demons - that were originally supposed to eat Spike!

Again- Riley wouldn't go to all this trouble just to get Spike. We all know his stance on demons, he is hardly going to organise for a nest of killer demons to hatch that would eventually kill not only Spike- but potentially the entire population of Sunnydale. Riley doesn't give a crap about Spike, why would he still be thinking about getting back at Spike after it had been over a year since he was caught with the vamp? Furthermore, why would then Riley risk his own life to go down into Spike's crypt, take a look at the eggs and allow them to hatch all around him. He could have tossed a grenade down the hole and blew them up without ever putting himself in danger.

Definitely the middleman. Not the Doctor - whoever that may have been (I just think it's Riley) And no it doesn't excuse that he still did it. But you have to wonder why he did it... This was brought up on the other board and is a good point. Buffy needed money. And maybe this was his way to get money for Buffy. Of course - when I need money I don't go rob a bank. So, a wrong done for the 'right" reasons doesn't make it right.

Buffy would never take his money, she made that clear to him already. Furthermore, why would Spike have to go to all this trouble just to get some money? Spike's a vampire, he can just walk into a shop at night and steal as much cash as he pleases, there is no need to go into dealings with 'The Doctor' and foreign governments, just to get his hands on some cash.

This was all before he slept with her... The intimacy makes it different. As long as she was yanking him around on a string "come here/go away" it was just frustrating him and he wanted an answer. When she made the initiative to sleep with him in Smashed - she made first move - he knew things had become different between them.

Even after sleeping with Buffy Spike risked everything by sleeping with Anya and trying to rape her. How exactly would either things win her back? Spike never planned to tell Buffy about the eggs, he was a crappy planner, and as always he thought he could get away with some dirty deeds but was caught- yet again.

Originally Posted by Sherrilina
What are you talking about--remember her passionate "get away from Randy!"--even when she has no memories (so to speak) she is still protecting him especially, and clearly cares about him. I definitely think it validates Spuffy.

As KoC points out- Buffy/Joan protecting Spike/Randy doesn't mean she had any romantic or lusty feelings for him. If anything it would be a sign of her underlying heroicness. Buffy/Joan would have done the same thing if any of the others were in that kind of trouble.

Buffy shoves Spike out of the way in Out of Mind when a freshly risen vamp is about to attack him. She then proceeds to state her disgust at the fact he tasted his own nose blood then suggests she and Riley kill Spike for fun. Does this mean she cared about Spike?

[sherrilina]

As KoC points out- Buffy/Joan protecting Spike/Randy doesn't mean she had any romantic or lusty feelings for him. If anything it would be a sign of her underlying heroicness. Buffy/Joan would have done the same thing if any of the others were in that kind of trouble.

Buffy shoves Spike out of the way in Out of Mind when a freshly risen vamp is about to attack him. She then proceeds to state her disgust at the fact he tasted his own nose blood then suggests she and Riley kill Spike for fun. Does this mean she cared about Spike?
But given that she had also saved him while in possession of her memories earlier in the same episode ("My life would be so much simpler if I would just stop saving his life!") in a way that mirrors her protectiveness of him later in the epp in the shop, I do think it's supposed to mean something. When she says the thing about wishing she didn't keep saving his life, it seemed more like a denial of any feeling for him than a flat-out desire for his death--I think that's a kind of shippy moment. Especially coming after the first kiss, and considering that they kiss later in that episode. I always thought that the look on her face when she first gets her memory back, and sees Spike again, was the reluctant realization that even when her memory was wiped, she was still instinctively attracted to Spike, or drawn to him, much to her chagrin, and that part of her kissing him again at the end of the episode was giving in to that realization at least a little (while she was especially emotionally vulnerable b/c of Giles leaving). Maybe she would have acted the same if she had seen Xander in danger, but maybe she would not have said it in quite the same way--KoC you say there's a lack of other evidence, bu there's also a lack of evidence that she WOULD have treated the other males in the exact same way, as much as there isn't any that says she WOULD NOT do so--it could go either way, but given the Spuffy moments before and after the memory wipe-out, and the way in which her reactions to Spike in the shop mirror the growing connection between them throughout the beginning of season 6, I would still definitely count it as a Spuffy validation, or at least a validation that there are some underlying feelings of attraction or whatever that draw her to him, in spite of herself.

[KingofCretins]

I always thought that the look on her face when she first gets her memory back, and sees Spike again, was the reluctant realization that even when her memory was wiped, she was still instinctively attracted to Spike, or drawn to him, much to her chagrin, and that part of her kissing him again at the end of the episode was giving in to that realization at least a little (while she was especially emotionally vulnerable b/c of Giles leaving).

I rather think Buffy's reaction was just the overall weight of her situation -- suddenly re-learned that Joan's sister was not a 'sister' after all, but a burden placed on her, remembering Joyce, remembering "The Gift" and everything that followed. Remembering "Becoming". Remembering "Prophecy Girl". Joan was a happier lady.

I don't buy that there is an 'instinctive' attraction to Spike -- if there was, it would have been, well, instinctive. Her instincts toward Spike were always revulsion and contempt. Attraction was a learned response, for which there was not *any* evidence until "Intervention". And, she never trades in her instinctive suspicion of Spike until "Never Leave Me". She all but admits she was going to kill him until she understood what was going on in "Sleeper".

[vampmogs]

But given that she had also saved him while in possession of her memories earlier in the same episode ("My life would be so much simpler if I would just stop saving his life!") in a way that mirrors her protectiveness of him later in the epp in the shop, I do think it's supposed to mean something.

Each to their own I guess :) I just take that scene as being a necessary occurrence so that Joan could learn of her abilities, and hence advance to the plot. I never really took it as some underlying Spuffy moment but each views the scene slightly different. Buffy isn't just protective towards Spike, she is protective over anyone in danger I think it is part of her whole hero complex.

I always thought that the look on her face when she first gets her memory back, and sees Spike again, was the reluctant realization that even when her memory was wiped, she was still instinctively attracted to Spike, or drawn to him, much to her chagrin, and that part of her kissing him again at the end of the episode was giving in to that realization at least a little (while she was especially emotionally vulnerable b/c of Giles leaving)

I pretty much viewed this scene in the way KoC did and he's explained much of what I would have said. I don't think it was a so much a realisation of her hidden feelings for Spike, but more so all the memories coming back to her of how depressed she was about her situation. Remember that just before Willow's memory spell kicked in Buffy was in a complete breakdown, the way she was speaking about how she couldn't take it anymore sounded almost as if she was contemplating suicide. When the spell was broken Buffy got all these memories back again, being slammed with the painful memories of Joyce dying and her time in Heaven would have been very demoralising and shocking. I don't think this was about Spuffy, but more about everything in her life.

[ThePoet's<3]

I will quote myself again in regards to As You Were:

BUT - what we see in the episode is what is cannon. All my speculation is just that. But there were so many questions in my head after that episode! It was like I had missed an episode in between and had missing information. The episode really makes no sense other than Buffy and Spike broke up.

I accept that the episode and its events are canon. However, there are many other viewers who agree there was something "off" in that episode. Some will just say - it was bad writing, boring, ho-hum, etc. But that episode was not all it could be. Which makes me again go with my original feeling that Doug Petrie - who has written some of the BEST Spike episodes and lines wrote this episode to raise questions. And I think it is just too darn interesting that Spike - who was instrumental in breaking Ruffy up would have Riley show up at his breakup scene.

Even some of the same lines were used -

"Into the Woods" - Spike: "What can I say? She likes a little monster in her man."

"As You Were" - Spike: "What can I say? She like a little monster in her, man." (subtle play on words.)

BTW - The Spuffy vs. Bangel Showdown is up again!! Show your love!!
Here is the link!

http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=260

[vampmogs]

I will quote myself again in regards to As You Were:

I accept that the episode and its events are canon. However, there are many other viewers who agree there was something "off" in that episode. Some will just say - it was bad writing, boring, ho-hum, etc. But that episode was not all it could be. Which makes me again go with my original feeling that Doug Petrie - who has written some of the BEST Spike episodes and lines wrote this episode to raise questions. And I think it is just too darn interesting that Spike - who was instrumental in breaking Ruffy up would have Riley show up at his breakup scene.

As you said, Doug Petrie does right some of the best Spike episodes, he knows Spike's character very well. Perhaps Petrie was trying to show fans (something the writers attempted to do later in the AR scene) that Spike is still a soulless, untrustworthy vampire. The writers have explained that they felt fans were beginning to like Spike too much, they wanted to show Spike for what he was- in order for his change after getting his soul to mean anything at all. It is likely Petire attempted to do this in As You Were.

I wouldn't say Spike was instrumental to breaking Ruffy up, it had been established long before Buffy had saw Riley being sucked by a vamp, that something was seriously wrong with their relationship. Xander saw it, Riley saw it and Buffy later explains in the following episode that it was evident to everyone but her the breakup was coming. I am of course assuming you say Spike was instrumental because he showed Buffy Riley's secret? Because Buffy had no feelings whatsoever for Spike in season five.

Even some of the same lines were used -

"Into the Woods" - Spike: "What can I say? She likes a little monster in her man."

"As You Were" - Spike: "What can I say? She like a little monster in her, man." (subtle play on words.)

This was done on purpose yes, but it was done so Spike could try and throw it in Riley's face that in the end he managed to sleep with Buffy. It was meant to be obvious that Spike was calling back to when he first said it to Riley, basically it was Spike being obnoxious ;)

Whilst Riley did help in making Buffy realise that she had to end it with Spike, Spike did it all on his own. As you said, in canon Spike had the eggs, he was up to dirty business and he got caught. This isn't Buffy's fault, nor Rileys, it was Spikes.

[Moscow Watcher]

Funnily, the episode works great if we assume that Riley is the Doctor who has framed Spike. Riley knows exactly when the eggs start hatching. He doesn't try to find out anything about Spike's contacts, when the latter says that he does a favor for a "friend". Riley's decision not to investigate Spike's "friend" is absolutely illogical unless Riley himself is involved and is afraid that Spike's revelations may eventually lead to him.

[Dorian's Kitten]

You guys have almost convinced me. I just think that Riley doesn't investigate the "friend" because he doesn't believe for a moment that Spike is not the Doctor. But it is a lovely theory-I generally prefer to think of Spike in a positive light. I just sort of think that he was doing the whole stupid thing to try and get cash for Buffy. That sounds like him to me: totally dumb plan to try and help his girls.

[ThePoet's<3]

Funnily, the episode works great if we assume that Riley is the Doctor who has framed Spike. Riley knows exactly when the eggs start hatching. He doesn't try to find out anything about Spike's contacts, when the latter says that he does a favor for a "friend". Riley's decision not to investigate Spike's "friend" is absolutely illogical unless Riley himself is involved and is afraid that Spike's revelations may eventually lead to him.

Welcome to my Conspiracy Theory... :D

You guys have almost convinced me. I just think that Riley doesn't investigate the "friend" because he doesn't believe for a moment that Spike is not the Doctor. But it is a lovely theory-I generally prefer to think of Spike in a positive light. I just sort of think that he was doing the whole stupid thing to try and get cash for Buffy. That sounds like him to me: totally dumb plan to try and help his girls.

He does love his girls... :heart: :kiss: :heart: *sigh*

So yes, I can definately see him "holding on" to the eggs for the Doctor for some $$ to give to Buffy. He hates to see her or Dawn unhappy. It's actually quite sweet in his vampire way... :heart:

HHhmmm... Trying to move onto something else...

Any Spuffy's have any new insight on "Crush"?

LRae brought up a wonderful point in the Spike thread talking about how Spike really hit a cross-roads in this particular episode.
http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showpost.php?p=17476&postcount=19

I've always felt that way as well. As far as being a vampire goes he really is quite trapped between both worlds. He can't be a vampire and Buffy has rejected his gesture of love. However, this is all before the grand gesture of protecting the identity of Dawn from Glory.

Granted it is a bit "vampirish" the gestures that he makes, but doesn't it still represent someone trying so hard to prove his love?

[Ravynnia]

Sign me up, once again (yes, for doubters, it's Ravyn from BW)!!

Before Spike go this soul back, he obliged Buffy to get hers back -- or at least to open up to its depths. Buffy was chilled, reluctant, wanting to remain without fire. He made Buffy's own interior conflict inescapable; the fire was scorching fire, but it did bring Buffy back to herself, not by immediate "Buffy-come-home", but through the excessive, extreme struggle between Heaven and Hell. Spike is her black Beatrice, the negative vision of the possibility of bliss. The form is right, only the values are switched. The disorientation involved in the forced resurrection, and the alienation from her friends who performed it, required a conflagration, a cleansing burn. She could only burn through Spike & for him. His descent to the African cave is his own leap into the blinding portal.

Spike without Buffy is like half a set of chromosomes. It makes sense that those who prefer the communal frame, the friendship vibe, have difficulty, if not with Spuffy,at least with S6 Spuffy, because Spuffy is the antagonist of Core-Four, C4, Buffy.

OMWF is saturated with this nostalgic antagonism -- the yearning of "What Can't We Face If we're Together?" is for an unchallenged symmetry which has been thrown off by Dawn's arrival and Buffy's death & return. The real equilibrium can only be oriented around Spike, who refuses to integrate after having been rejected; Buffy is unwilling to reform the group, and when she's willing, can't; and ultimately, it would be impossible in any case.

Spike's immolation, though, is only a false resolution; the 'look-we're-back-as-at-the-beginning' scene in "Chosen" is fraudulent, without substance: the freight has shifted elsewhere, into the relationship whose creator can't quite sustain either.

Spuffy exceeds Joss and his co-creators.

[Dorian's Kitten]

Wow, lovely analysis Ravynnia. Way to push up the bar for the rest of us.

It did get me thinking about Spike's immolation, his final act of self sacrifice. I read somewhere-sorry I cannot place it exactly- the thought that Spike really sacrificed himself when he got the soul, that since he didn't actually value the soul himself and only got it because Buffy saw value in it, that he, in a very real way, died that day. He gave up his values, his identity in favor of hers.

But these things have gotten me thinking. I think that he actually sacrifices himself, or at least parts of himself, on several occasions.
The changes in his character over season five, climaxing with his apparent willingness to allow Glory to kill him are certainly a great sacrifice. And it sticks, we see at the beginning of season six, he is still there playing by the rules she created even though she is gone. He has apparently spent the summer helping her rather ungrateful friends patrol and babysitting her sister. Because he promised. When the motorcycle gang swings into town there is a moment of honesty-his feelings are given "looks like fun", but he continues to sacrifice himself.
The sacrifice he makes during their physical relationship is even greater. We see him lose his humanity, as she shows no willingness to acknowledge it. It was certainly there at the beginning; he shows compassion and tenderness. She even accepts it, they speak and she accepts what comfort he can give. Right up to the point at which they become physical. At that point Buffy cannot allow him any humanity, she repeatedly tells hims that he is not that, he cannot be be sweet or tender or loving; she tells him that he can only be twisted and wrong. And we watch as he stops being those things and tries to become exactly what she tells him he is. He is darker suddenly, and I read repeatedly of how he was wrong and tried to pull her to his level. He wasn't really given any choice, she made it quite clear that he couldn't rise. But his sacrifice wasn't in vain, as he loses his humanity she regains her own.

By the time he goes to get his soul he is already a changed man, both for the better and the worse. He has lost both his inner monster and his inner man. The soul becomes just one more step in his efforts to remake himself into the man Buffy desires.

Unfortunately for him, it becomes increasingly clear that Buffy really doesn't know what she wants.

[KingofCretins]

I reject the notion that Spuffy exceeded its creators. Spuffy was more or less the singular obsession of a specific member of the creative team and, by no coincidence at all, corresponded to the poorest reviewed seasons of the show. It's not a sign of transcendence that Spike and Buffy was the most important relationship dynamic down the stretch, it's a sign that the person in day to day control of the show had no interest in developing arcs for any other characters.

The only flaw in the Core Four moment in "Chosen" was that it was too short, and too glib. The most poignant sight in that episode was nothing at all to do with Buffy and Angel or Buffy and Spike... it was the three original Scoobies, silently heading down the hallway, with Willow and Xander stepping away from Buffy in the opposite order they had arrived.

Unfortunately for him, it becomes increasingly clear that Buffy really doesn't know what she wants.

By the time Spike is re-corporealized, he appears to have come to the conclusion that Buffy probably does know what she wants... and that it won't be him (or Angel). There's really no other credible explanation for jumping into bed with Harmony, deciding not to leave L.A., and ultimately joining Angel's apparent suicide mission.

[Dorian's Kitten]

Well I wouldn't necessarily say that he saw that she knew what she wanted so much as he saw that whatever it was (and he may see that she too still doesn't know) it probably wasn't him. Getting the soul of course adding the whole self-loathing bit that made him feel unworthy of all that he had been working towards.
I actually think the whole Harmony thing shouldn't be read into that deeply. Spike tends to jump without much thought. Besides Buffy had made it quite clear sex with soul-less vamps just doesn't count. ;)
As far as joining Angel's suicide mission: trying to gain Angel's approval was hardly a new thing for Spike. "You called me a hero?"

[ThePoet's<3]

Sign me up, once again (yes, for doubters, it's Ravyn from BW)!!

Welcome Ravynnia!!! What a great post!

I don't suppose I've ever looked at the fact that Spike actually helps Buffy get her own soul back - in a matter of words. But yes, when Buffy returns she is "empty" and continues to feel nothing. She is drawn to the relationship to begin with because she can find no comfort in her friends - she's not able to share with them the truth because it seems almost ungrateful - yet she is unable to be completely happy about her return. But Spike is there to comfort her, to help her "feel" again. He loves her so much he is willing to do whatever and be whatever she needs him to be.

Spike without Buffy is like half a set of chromosomes. It makes sense that those who prefer the communal frame, the friendship vibe, have difficulty, if not with Spuffy,at least with S6 Spuffy, because Spuffy is the antagonist of Core-Four, C4, Buffy.

Wonderful - "half a set of chromosomes"...
OMWF is saturated with this nostalgic antagonism -- the yearning of "What Can't We Face If we're Together?" is for an unchallenged symmetry which has been thrown off by Dawn's arrival and Buffy's death & return. The real equilibrium can only be oriented around Spike, who refuses to integrate after having been rejected; Buffy is unwilling to reform the group, and when she's willing, can't; and ultimately, it would be impossible in any case.

Spike is always able to see the truth. The truth is that the rift that has been created cannot be "pasted" back together with a trite song about "togetherness". The chasm is bigger, deeper, darker then any of them can recognize - any of them except Spike. And Buffy sees that as well or she would have stayed and got her "kum-bah-yah-yah's" out with the rest of them. But she knew - he knew - that everything wasn't all better. It was just beginning.

Spuffy exceeds Joss and his co-creators.
Oh I agree with that!! It happens on so many levels with Spuffy and with Spike. [/quote]

Originally the train of thought was Vampire=Bad/Evil. Spike was supposed to be intensely disliked. His end was in Season 2 with the organ being dropped upon him. However - FANS! You gotta love 'em! Spike was the Big Evil that many fans wanted to return!

Same with Spuffy and Season 6. This is not where many fans of the C4 wanted this Season to go.


It did get me thinking about Spike's immolation, his final act of self sacrifice. I read somewhere-sorry I cannot place it exactly- the thought that Spike really sacrificed himself when he got the soul, that since he didn't actually value the soul himself and only got it because Buffy saw value in it, that he, in a very real way, died that day. He gave up his values, his identity in favor of hers.

But these things have gotten me thinking. I think that he actually sacrifices himself, or at least parts of himself, on several occasions.
The changes in his character over season five, climaxing with his apparent willingness to allow Glory to kill him are certainly a great sacrifice. And it sticks, we see at the beginning of season six, he is still there playing by the rules she created even though she is gone. He has apparently spent the summer helping her rather ungrateful friends patrol and babysitting her sister. Because he promised. When the motorcycle gang swings into town there is a moment of honesty-his feelings are given "looks like fun", but he continues to sacrifice himself.
The sacrifice he makes during their physical relationship is even greater. We see him lose his humanity, as she shows no willingness to acknowledge it. It was certainly there at the beginning; he shows compassion and tenderness. She even accepts it, they speak and she accepts what comfort he can give. Right up to the point at which they become physical. At that point Buffy cannot allow him any humanity, she repeatedly tells hims that he is not that, he cannot be be sweet or tender or loving; she tells him that he can only be twisted and wrong. And we watch as he stops being those things and tries to become exactly what she tells him he is. He is darker suddenly, and I read repeatedly of how he was wrong and tried to pull her to his level. He wasn't really given any choice, she made it quite clear that he couldn't rise. But his sacrifice wasn't in vain, as he loses his humanity she regains her own.

By the time he goes to get his soul he is already a changed man, both for the better and the worse. He has lost both his inner monster and his inner man. The soul becomes just one more step in his efforts to remake himself into the man Buffy desires.

Unfortunately for him, it becomes increasingly clear that Buffy really doesn't know what she wants.

He completely recreates himself. She continually up'ed the anty and he continually calls.

He could have easily removed himself from the Scoobies after Buffy's death but because he loves her he continues to keep the promises he made to her. Why not move on? Why stay and help the Scoobs? Could it be he that the only way to be near her even after death was to stay in Sunnydale looking after Dawn and helping the Scoobies? Because they were the closest thing he had to her at that time?

And it's not like maybe he'll do it for a while and then fall back into old habits -- he keeps track of the time. Faithfully. Tells her to the day how long it has been since she has been gone.

I do like DK what you said about the relationship moving into darkness. It is Buffy that takes them into that direction. Again, Spike was only being what Buffy wanted. At the time she could not deal with the "nothing" she felt within herself. She took herself into those areas to "feel" again - Spike just went there because he loved her and wanted to be what she needed.

And he so wanted her to want him for himself - to the point that he actually looks for excuses for her to be the way she is. The whole "you came back wrong" is his own excuse for her turning to him. She has continually rejected his love to the point that he rejects it for himself!! "Buffy can't have feelings for me because she has constantly told me how unloveable I am."

I reject the notion that Spuffy exceeded its creators. Spuffy was more or less the singular obsession of a specific member of the creative team and, by no coincidence at all, corresponded to the poorest reviewed seasons of the show. It's not a sign of transcendence that Spike and Buffy was the most important relationship dynamic down the stretch, it's a sign that the person in day to day control of the show had no interest in developing arcs for any other characters. Ah KoC , as I am constantly reminded the creative team and thoughts of the actors cannot be considered in the episodes which are "Canon". ;) :rolleyes: j/k I agree Season 6 was very hard for folks to watch - and it wasn't only Spuffy that many disagreed with it was the tearing down of the Scoobies in general. Just as in Season 7 it's harder to accept that all but Spike betrayed Buffy.

But Season 6 was dark and mature. It was as real as Buffy the Vampire Slayer could get. Slayer on hard times.

I was more disappointed that they took the relationship into such a dark place. At the beginning of the Season it held a lighter promise in a few kisses.

By the time Spike is re-corporealized, he appears to have come to the conclusion that Buffy probably does know what she wants... and that it won't be him (or Angel). There's really no other credible explanation for jumping into bed with Harmony, deciding not to leave L.A., and ultimately joining Angel's apparent suicide mission.But Buffy doesn't know he's alive. Buffy's moved on because she doesn't know anything about Spike. And with Angel - she at least has some dialogue about the possibility it could someday be him. Spike was right there - listening to it all.

Spike sacrificed himself w/o the knowledge of knowing he would come back. It was a pure gesture of love.

Also, remember, until he became corporeal there was no way for him to leave LA. He was on his way to find Buffy as soon as he knew he was not completely destroyed. However he couldn't leave as he was tied to the amulet.

Spike will always have doubts about Buffy's love. Nothing he did until he obtained his soul was good enough for her.

And why does everyone always point to the SParmony quickie as a way of saying Spike no longer cares for Buffy or has moved on? No one ever says that about Cordy and Angel - or Angel and Nicki, or Buffy and Riley for that matter.

The SParmony quickie was that - a harmless romp with a willing ex-girlfriend. A celebration of life with the only willing female in sight! As much as Harmony annoyed Spike when he was souless (he tried to kill her) they were always good in bed! :D

Him not leaving LA after re-corporealizing I think was more about the Shanshu. Vampire w/o soul - not good. Vampire w/a soul - better. Vampire who is now a human - bingo! I believed he stayed because he thought he nw had a running for the Shanshu as well. And the competition between the two Vampires has a long deep rich history. "Anything you can do I can do better".

Plus - Buffy wasn't happy that Angel went with W&H she made that pretty clear. But Buffy doesn't know about Spike... I can see how that might swing in the favor of Spike...

It's looking more and more like Brian Lynch and IDW is going to produce Angel series 6 - in partnership with Joss. It will be canon. It could get pretty interesting... ;)

[KingofCretins]

Ah KoC , as I am constantly reminded the creative team and thoughts of the actors cannot be considered in the episodes which are "Canon". j/k I agree Season 6 was very hard for folks to watch - and it wasn't only Spuffy that many disagreed with it was the tearing down of the Scoobies in general. Just as in Season 7 it's harder to accept that all but Spike betrayed Buffy.

I'm pretty sure declaring that Spuffy was bigger than Joss and the staff made it fair game that it was something that was more or less inflicted on the Buffyverse by one person. Give the commentary on "I Was Made to Love You" a listen. It's subtle, but you can almost sense annoyance at Spuffy from Jane Espensen, because it was *not* part of the plans when that episode was written and she was the one whose script had all these strong, definitive statements against any relationship there.

It's hard to argue it was the fans that demanded it either... Seasons 5, 6, and 7 had lower TV ratings than Seasons 2, 3, and 4. Three things leap out that distinguish the lower rated seasons: a much darker overall tone, less consistent continuity editing, and Spuffy.

And why does everyone always point to the SParmony quickie as a way of saying Spike no longer cares for Buffy or has moved on? No one ever says that about Cordy and Angel - or Angel and Nicki, or Buffy and Riley for that matter.

The SParmony quickie was that - a harmless romp with a willing ex-girlfriend. A celebration of life with the only willing female in sight! As much as Harmony annoyed Spike when he was souless (he tried to kill her) they were always good in bed!

For some reason, I think he'd have a hard time selling that to Buffy while trying to get together with her. There's no way it doesn't cheapen any commitment he thinks he feels to Buffy.

Weren't Cordy/Angel, Angel/Nina, and Buffy/Riley are actually specifically used as a way to demonstrate they aren't still worried about Buffy/Angel?

Season 6 of Angel is actually a 12 issue mini-series, not a long-term run like Season 8 is.

[ThePoet's<3]

See I don't think they want there to be a total disconnect with Buffy and Angel. Why the kiss if that is true? That was a bit over the top if they were not trying to milk the "possibility" factor for the fans to come to Angel 5 or any future interaction.

I will disagree that Spuffy was the main reason for fan dislike of Season 6 - I think there is equal love for Spuffy and the darker themes than there are for those who didn't love it.

And don't you think that the decrease in population could have also pointed towards the change in tastes of the Buffy fans? They were beginning to grow up themselves. And with new TV shows on the major networks BtVS had some fierce competition.

In regards to Sparmony, I think that by the time Buffy and Spike ever see each other again - there will be many things that need an explanation between the two. I don't see Buffy being that upset that Spike partially shagged Harmony. (Bitus Interruptus - remember?? :D )

And yes - so far they are talking a "mini-series" Season 6. So far...

[KingofCretins]

There's probably not a whole lot of useful discussion available in debating the meta-textual factors in Spuffy or its effect on the show.

Personally, I don't think Buffy would care all that much about Spike and Harmony. But that's the thing -- she probably wouldn't care. If she's in love and the only thing holding them back now is a canon venue to get those crazy kids back together, wouldn't she care? We know that she went about out of her gourd with suspicion about Angel and Faith... a couple times. She got hyper-competitive about Owen when she had a crush on him. She got all bent out of shape about Parker before she found out that they weren't together. Buffy has a pretty clear track record of being jealous/possessive about her guy. If that's how she thought of Spike, I doubt she'd be blase about him jumping Harmony, *especially* because it was just for fun.

[Dorian's Kitten]

In regards to Sparmony, I think that by the time Buffy and Spike ever see each other again - there will be many things that need an explanation between the two. I don't see Buffy being that upset that Spike partially shagged Harmony. (Bitus Interruptus - remember?? :D )



Seriously, it is not as though Buffy gave him any reason to think they were going to be together even if he made it. Yes, they grew closer in the last couple of days, but she was really careful not to make any promises and they were not involved in a sexual relationship.
I think the upset from not sharing his undead state will far outweigh irritation about his playing with Harmony.

[Epic]

I just started watching seaon 2 again. (yes had to get through the bangel cheesniess.. no bashing, just saying whether you like it or not... its cheesy)
One of my favorite Spuffy scenes is when he is first looking at her. I get all giddy with what is to come in later episdoes.

[ThePoet's<3]

I just started watching seaon 2 again. (yes had to get through the bangel cheesniess.. no bashing, just saying whether you like it or not... its cheesy)
One of my favorite Spuffy scenes is when he is first looking at her. I get all giddy with what is to come in later episdoes.

Hi Epic!!!

I know that scene!! It's very sexy!! I was watching some videos the other night and it had some earlier shots of Spike - the one you mention - of him watching her dancing. It was very wise of James to play Spike in that way - look at what we had to look forward too!

[KingofCretins]

Yeah, it's very adorable the way he stalks through the Bronze thinking of all the different ideas he has for murdering Buffy :)

Absorb that for its spammy fun.

I really don't see any Spuffy overtones in Season 2, certainly not as it was written or played at the time. Any subtext there seems to be entirely attributed after the fact. Remember, as late as "I Was Made to Love You", Jane Espensen was writing dialogue for characters about how laughable Spuffy was because, at the time, it *was* laughable to the people writing it. I know over-attribution is the game in 'shipping in general, but Spike was all about, and only about, Drusilla in Season 2.

[ThePoet's<3]

You will not steal my joy of Spuffy KoC - you won't you won't you won't!! :2party: (besides - I even voted for BANDER !:D )

I will disagree with you - as you would expect me to do so - I found it extremely sexy to watch Spike watch Buffy dance. I'm sure he had some mischief in mind when he was watching but - evil or not - it made my blood boil pleasantly. :heart: Sometimes it is at those very moments that a 'Ship is born... Or as this is in an early stage - is conceived.

Much like when Sawyer grabs Kate's arm ain Seasn 1 and says, "I've been with girls like you before" and Kate says, "No girl's quite like me". That is the very scene the writers said - OOOooo... We have to get them together. :D

The dance scene may well have been the Spuffy conception!! ;)

[KingofCretins]

We appreciate your support :)

Kate sure can pick 'em, can't she? Surgeon with daddy issues and a hero complex... murdering conman... murdering conman OF COURSE! :) I should post on your Sawyer/Kate thread, because, uh, yes there are parallels, but no, they aren't exactly fuzzy and warm :)

[ThePoet's<3]

Well, we can't get too off topic - but yes I can see the parallel between someone who loves and accepts you for who you are vs. someone who will love and accept you "with strings attached". This could appy to both of these 'Ships - but I will keep it with Spuffy for now.

[KingofCretins]

As instructed:

Spikes's first dream about Buffy was really pretty hot. Like most of the confused audience, it looked like it was on the level, if really, really weird :)

[Dorian's Kitten]

So true. Especially excellent is his response to that dream. I don't think he looks that truly frightened more than a couple of time during the entire series.(Seriously he faces death more easily.) It is so clear that he knows that he is lost. He really does know that he is love's bitch. And it is rather remarkable that he apparently has no idea until the dream, but doesn't even really question it. It's not like-"Whoa...What the hell was that about?" it's just " Oh God no". One dream and he sees the truth. Seriously it would be nice if we could all have such self-awareness. ;)

[Francy]

Yeah, it's very adorable the way he stalks through the Bronze thinking of all the different ideas he has for murdering Buffy :)

:lol: Just like Angel stalked a 15 years old Buffy, thinking about how he could lure her! :lol: These vampires and their stalking habits...tsk!

I really don't see any Spuffy overtones in Season 2, certainly not as it was written or played at the time. Any subtext there seems to be entirely attributed after the fact. Remember, as late as "I Was Made to Love You", Jane Espensen was writing dialogue for characters about how laughable Spuffy was because, at the time, it *was* laughable to the people writing it. I know over-attribution is the game in 'shipping in general, but Spike was all about, and only about, Drusilla in Season 2.

I agree that back then Spuffy was not even an option, for the writers. But James Marsters has affirmed in interviews that he purposely(?) played Spike, in his interactions with Buffy, with a sexual innuendo. And then, in season 5 they pulled out a nice retcon (the flashbacks with Dru) to establish how Spike's subconscious feelings for Buffy were latent way before he realized they were there. So, considering this, I guess it's pretty possible to see Spuffy subtext as early as season 2, if one wishes to see them! :) All with hindsight, of course...

[Ravynnia]

Spuffy works particularly well because the writers couldn't have established the groundwork better if they had planned it.

It comes as a surprise to us because it comes as a surprise to Spike & as a surprise to them. Like much of life -- "I didn't know my life was going this direction," and yet when you look at the path you take, it looks as if it has been plotted in a very sneaky manner by mysterious forces with their own contradictory intentions.

But, once again, why are anti-Spuffinian comments being posted in the SSU rather than on contrversial threads?

[KingofCretins]

Insofar as I'd agree Spuffy works at all, I'd say you are write -- they couldn't have planned it out in advance rather than having genuinely written loathing by Buffy and having it turn. It was actually pretty convincing on first viewing, right up until it actually become sexual in about the worst context possible. Between "Intervention" and "Tabula Rasa", Spuffy was actually better written than Buffy/Angel was at any point.

Galathea summed it up well on the Anti-Cangel thread on this board.

Hey there! Sorry, but you can't exclude anybody from a discussion thread here on BuffyForums. Anybody is allowed to voice his/her opinion in any thread as long as it is expressed politely and and in a sensible fashion. If Cangels want to debate the development of Angels and Cordelias relationship with people who have arguments on why they shouldn't be together in this thread, it is just as open to them as Cangel threads are for Bangels.

...As I said over at BW, if you voice an opinion on a discussion board you have to expect people taking an affirmative or negative stance towards that opinion because that's what discussion boards are about. If someone is an Anti-Cangel then he/she will be able to provide good arguments for their position and should be able to defend that position against any Cangel lover. There is no reason for uneasiness or excluding people from partaking in a debate.

[Dorian's Kitten]

Insofar as I'd agree Spuffy works at all, I'd say you are write -- they couldn't have planned it out in advance rather than having genuinely written loathing by Buffy and having it turn. It was actually pretty convincing on first viewing, right up until it actually become sexual in about the worst context possible. Between "Intervention" and "Tabula Rasa", Spuffy was actually better written than Buffy/Angel was at any point.


I would agree with this assessment, things get really rocky once they sleep together. We can disagree (and I know we do :)) about the reason for those problems, but by OMWF it is really apparent that he is in love with her and that she is feeling something too. And at that point it is still sweet; we see a connection. We see him trying to be helpful and supportive and we see her trying to let him be. We see that they are increasingly comfortable together. Around Spike, Buffy is relaxing. We also feel the increasing sexual tension, but at that point it seems just as much based on a growing friendship. That friendship is what seems to get tossed aside once their physical relationship starts. We see only a couple of glimpses of that aspect of their relationship during the rest of the season.

But it is that friendship,