Monster In her man

[kana]

Ok new forum but old thread, because perhaps we have some new members with new opinions.

Spike: The girl needs some monster in her man ... and that's not in your nature.

Spike says this to Riley. Put simply, do you agree with him? Does Buffy need the monster in her man? Buffy did wonder why she was attracted to 'wicked energy' guys does this include Riley and if not, does that mean she wasn't really that drawn to him?

Discuss.

[KingofCretins]

I don't agree one bit. It's important to remember this is something said about Buffy, not by Buffy. Buffy has never claimed to want anything other than a normal guy with whom she can share as normal a life as she can. She closes up to Riley when she first finds out that's not what he brings. It's also something said about Buffy by somebody who fits the definition.

[vampmogs]

Buffy has openly admitted that she wonders if a relationship needs pain and misery to make it work. She makes comical references to her life stating, "I like my men like I like my evil, evil!" However, whilst she is physically attracted to dark men with some monster in them, she's never expressed that she has been happy about this or wanted this for herself.

Notedly, the only real evil person she has been with was Spike and she claims she didn't love him and states she is disgusted at herself for sleeping with him. Angel was just as kind as caring as Riley was, and Buffy certainly didn't date him when he reverted back to Angelus.

So to me it is more of an attraction thing than anything else, like many girls the bad boy does it for her. However, this isn't what she wants for herself or what she needs.

As pointed out above, she steps back from Riley when she discovers he is a commando because she thought he was a nice normal guy, something she wanted. And conveniantly the quote does come from someone who is a monster and wants Buffy to be with him, so no surprise there he'd be trying to pitch the idea.

[Valyssia]

Buffy isn't really big about opening up to anyone, regardless. I don't think she really takes a step back from Riley. She just fails to move forward...not a huge surprise. The girl gets more and more closed off and tightly wound as the series progresses. Of course that whole dieing thing is a huge contributor to her anti-social behavior. She has this big 'Chosen One' trip that tells her she shouldn't get too close because ultimately no one else's opinion matters as much as hers. I wanted to slap the snot out of her by season seven. Pick her up and shake out about half the stuffing...

And yeah... I think Spike is right... The girl does like the pain. Its like Einstein said... The definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over, while expecting different results. She's either a loony or she likes it...one of the two.

Val

[vampmogs]

Buffy isn't really big about opening up to anyone, regardless. I don't think she really takes a step back from Riley. She just fails to move forward...not a huge surprise. The girl gets more and more closed off and tightly wound as the series progresses. Of course that whole dieing thing is a huge contributor to her anti-social behavior. She has this big 'Chosen One' trip that tells her she shouldn't get too close because ultimately no one else's opinion matters as much as hers. I wanted to slap the snot out of her by season seven. Pick her up and shake out about half the stuffing...

Buffy has an inferiority complex because she has a superiority complex, this isn't Buffy being all high and mighty. She can't really be faulted for closing herself off, it seems to be a condition of the power she was chosen to have against her will. Caleb sees it, he says "The lonliness that comes with real strength" and Faith openly admits that when she was put into Buffy's position that "I've never felt more alone in my entire life. And that's you (Buffy) isn't it, everyday?" No matter how many people she has around her she is cut of and she can't really be faulted for being put in a different leauge to everyone else. What's important is that Buffy doesn't automatically accept this, she states that she isn't better than everyone else no matter what her feelings tell her.

And yeah... I think Spike is right... The girl does like the pain. Its like Einstein said... The definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over, while expecting different results. She's either a loony or she likes it...one of the two.

And Buffy is at fault for constantly being in pain? She was chosen to give up her carefree life and save the world from the forces of darkness. She was constantly facing violence and feeling isolated because of her strength. Not only this but she was forced to kill the love of her life because of her duties, lost people like her mother and was finally at peace until being torn out of heaven. This wasn't Buffy performing the same action over and over again; this was a result of bad things happening to her because of the unfortunate luck she had.

[Valyssia]

Falling for the same type over and over again even though you know it's just going to end badly is exactly like the Einstein quote. The ones that read bad on some level usually are just that. Not hard to see. Maybe she needs a new prescription for those violet sunglasses?

As far as her role goes... Well she just went a bit over the top with the 'poor me' bit for me to have much sympathy. I found her annoying toward the end. She doesn't seem to look much at what she actually has. Instead she focuses on what she wants or what she can't have. I guess we're all guilty of that on some level. It's a human nature thing, but you should, if you are sane, run to the end of the chain, and learn that repeating the running will just bloody your neck.

*wonders if anyone will get the dog metaphor*

Val

[kana]

I think agree withh Mogs and not forgetting all her men dispite the parallels have been very different and she's fallen for them under different circumstances. If we assume she was telling the truth when she said her 'I love yous' then she loved three very different men. If we pick and choose who she loved then we can mix and match it to suite our theories. Say for example she loved Angel, and cared for Riley because he was nice and was touched by everything Spike did for her and gave him the mercy love or she loved Spike but fancied Angel and cared for Riley etc.

I think Spike and Angel ar very different people apart from the fact they are vampires who loved Buffy. There are other parallels but there are so many differences that it makes it hard for me to believe they are the same type and the nature of their relationships are very different.

I believe Buffy likes pain in the way Spike says she does but the burden of what she does creates a circumstance whereby 'normal' relationships are hard to come by. I think my mum said it best: she doesn't look for these men, they seem to find her.

[Valyssia]

Regardless the circumstances she had something really amazing and barely seemed to recognize it. Everything with feet was bailing town at the end of season 7 and she had this core group of close friends that loved her enough to stay. You can't argue away how crass she was. Getting kicked out of her house by her sister the night before the big fight just served to illustrate how stupid she actually was.

I'd have been hitting the door too and telling her to enjoy the brimstone.

Fundamentally the thing that drew Buffy to Spike and Angel was the same. They were both bad boys. Riley was the anomaly... funny how he slipped into a bad boy sort of role as a result of their relationship. Made me wonder...

I'm not arguing that she loved them. All three of these primary relationships. What I'm arguing is that her judgment was less than stellar. I for one tend to stop doing 'that' when I touch the oven door and realize I've been burned.

It seems to me that not only did she ask...she even nurtured it.

Val

[KingofCretins]

Three relationships that lasted longer than one night are not really enough to form statistically reliable conclusions. It actually supports her 'cookie-dough' theory more than anything else.

[Valyssia]

Yes but over how many years? Weren't you sorta getting things figured when you were in your early 20's. I was and I knew that I possessed certain behaviors that were going to cause me trouble down the road. Now that's not to say I immediately put a lid on them but I was aware. Didn't take me long to decide 'this hurts' maybe I should try another tact. Now admittedly I may be slightly more self aware than our Miss Summers. I may even possess I higher IQ but... 'This hurts' is something anything with nerve endings and a brain stem can figure.

S'okay... I'll pick the popular argument next time... Don't get all stressed. Actually... I'm lying...I'll probably always pick the side of the argument that requires I take a few lumps. I enjoy making the difficult sells.

Val

[athens_pie]

Allow me to use a real-life scenario involving one of my roommates:

Intelligent girl. Late 20s. More or less stable life. But she's dating a jack-off that treats her like crap and uses her. It's a negative, unhealthy relationship, but she stays with him because she thrives on the drama. Literally claimed she "needs" fights and screaming matches in a relationship or else it doesn't work for her.

Of course, she's not fooling anyone. She's got really low self-esteem and most likely feels that she deserves to be treated like that. That she won't be able to find anything better. :/

So, bear with me here...perhaps Buffy gravitates toward relationships that are "rocky" or "doomed" etc. because of her so-called inferiority complex about her superiority complex - meaning, she unconsciously puts herself in relationships that tend to make her miserable (for various reasons) and have a high implosion probability because she feels as though she deserves to be taken down a notch and made to suffer a little bit (esp. true of her time with Spike). Also, when you're slightly unsure of yourself or how well you'll succeed at something it's not uncommon to purposefully get into something you know won't work so you've got a reason to bail.

It might not necessarily be something she actively seeks out, but the fact that Buffy's still a young woman (she's, what, only 22 by Season 7?) working out who she is/what she wants (i.e "still baking") and hasn't quite found her balance causes her to keep falling into that pattern of love, drama, loss.

I think it's more of an age/experience thing than she flat-out likes "bad guys".

God, I hope that made sense... heh

[Valyssia]

Made plenty of sense to me. Sounded a bit like a nicer, longer version of what I said. I even admitted that I wasn't quite finished enjoying my own more destructive behaviors when I was Buffy's age. I saw them...

I personally loved the cookie dough metaphor. My first thought was, "Hummm... Dearie you musta spaced that first batch. They're beginning to look a bit like something you might cook a steak over and the oven is dangerously close to catching fire. Better luck next batch."

Sitting there watching her go all doe-eyed and suck face with a man that becomes your worst nightmare the moment she has sex with him...while yet another interesting, specimen of similar ilk, floated around and played jealous boy, was amusing to say the least. Of the three relationships my preference was the latter. At least Spike was honest...he knew he was evil...he never pulled a punch when it came to the commentary...and he never played the 'poor me' card. Riley was just plain sad and the Angel thing was so tired that by the time he went all hatchy murdery part of me was cheering for him.

Valyssia

[vampmogs]

Falling for the same type over and over again even though you know it's just going to end badly is exactly like the Einstein quote. The ones that read bad on some level usually are just that. Not hard to see. Maybe she needs a new prescription for those violet sunglasses?

As others have stated, falling for the same type can't really apply to Buffy. She fell for Angel, a mysterious vampire with a soul, Riley the nice normal guy and then Spike, the evil soulless monster. All three have pretty distinct characteristics and were hardly the same, which is why all three rubbed eachother up the wrong way.

As far as her role goes... Well she just went a bit over the top with the 'poor me' bit for me to have much sympathy. I found her annoying toward the end. She doesn't seem to look much at what she actually has. Instead she focuses on what she wants or what she can't have. I guess we're all guilty of that on some level. It's a human nature thing, but you should, if you are sane, run to the end of the chain, and learn that repeating the running will just bloody your neck.

I think Buffy deserves to say "poor me." She has been through a lot, your telling me if you had been torn out of heaven which was the first time you were at peace your whole life and put back into a cruel and violent environment you wouldn't be saying poor me? Or if you were chosen to defend the world against vampires and demons which basically made you a social outcast and condemned you to an early death? When all the other kids were getting exicted about the prospect of life after highschool with jobs in What's My Line I Buffy had to sit there knowing there was a good chance she'd die or never have a great job. What about the fact she could never even contemplate leaving Sunnydale when all her friends nearly did? Or being thrown into a position where she had to fight a god and keep Dawn safe based solely on the fact she was a slayer? Buffy had a great deal of things to complain about, and considering how Faith turned out I'd say she did a pretty good job.

Regardless the circumstances she had something really amazing and barely seemed to recognize it. Everything with feet was bailing town at the end of season 7 and she had this core group of close friends that loved her enough to stay. You can't argue away how crass she was. Getting kicked out of her house by her sister the night before the big fight just served to illustrate how stupid she actually was.

Buffy says in Empty Places "I love my friends but that's the price of being a slayer." She understands what she has but can't help but feel a different way. She was unwillingly made different and it was extremely hard for her and was a condition of being someone with great power, Faith felt it to, it's a state of mind a slayer inherits rather than picks up.

And those who kicked Buffy out were proven to be wrong, she knew what she was talking about, they put someone in charge who most certainly wasn't ready to lead, got blown up... and then had to let Buffy back in because they sucked without her. And who was the more stupid here?

Fundamentally the thing that drew Buffy to Spike and Angel was the same. They were both bad boys. Riley was the anomaly... funny how he slipped into a bad boy sort of role as a result of their relationship. Made me wonder...

Yeah he slipped into the bad boy state and Buffy was extremely angry with his behaviour, she was far from drawn to him. She was equally as hesitant about having a relationship with him when she learnt he was a commando and not a nice normal guy. Buffy states in s4 "I am so over the bad boy thing!" Being with Spike was a result of her severe depression after being torn out of heaven, and basically needing to feel *something* even if it was disgust.

I'm not arguing that she loved them. All three of these primary relationships. What I'm arguing is that her judgment was less than stellar. I for one tend to stop doing 'that' when I touch the oven door and realize I've been burned.

Xander, Willow, Giles and Buffy have all had terrible luck with relationships; not just Buffy.

[kana]

Yeah I've always found the 'bad boy' thing a bit of a generalisation, especially considering the different reasons she engaged in these relationships. She didn't know Angel was going to cause her pain and she slept with Spike because he was soulless thing, yes but because she thought it may be ok to use him, it was conveniant. She never knowingly did that with Angel. To me all the relationships were so different.

[vampmogs]

Yeah I've always found the 'bad boy' thing a bit of a generalisation, especially considering the different reasons she engaged in these relationships. She didn't know Angel was going to cause her pain and she slept with Spike because he was soulless thing, yes but because she thought it may be ok to use him, it was conveniant. She never knowingly did that with Angel and Spike. To me all the relationships were so different.

Agreed. Especially when she was so hesitant and upset Riley wasn't a normal guy and could possibly be a 'bad boy.' Buffy doesn't want to be drawn to bad boys and the only other person to state she is, is Spike who wants Buffy so it is hardly a suprise he'd tell Riley she liked guys like him.

Ending up with bad boys doesn't mean she wants to be with them.

[omri]

I really don't agree with that... Not even one bit...... Spike who wanted Buffy, also want Riley out of the picture.. he was just messing with his mind. She was drawn to Riley because she needs something not demonic in her life. (though Riley is a demon hunter).

[vampmogs]

I really don't agree with that... Not even one bit...... Spike who wanted Buffy, also want Riley out of the picture.. he was just messing with his mind. She was drawn to Riley because she needs something not demonic in her life. (though Riley is a demon hunter).

That's what I meant. It was hardly a surprise Spike would say this because he just wants Buffy to be with him and to make Riley believe this as well. If anything Buffy has always wanted anything but a bad boy, and the reasons she has been with two (although I wouldn't automatically classify Angel as a bad boy based on the fact he is a vampire because he has a soul) is because of two extremely different circumstances.

[kana]

Although I did find Masq's generalization of Buffy going for guys who have a certain 'Owenosity' about them, quite amusing.

Characteristics including:
Being shy and/or bookish: Angel, William

And having a naive curiosity for danger: Liam, Riley and William.

[KingofCretins]

It's also significant that Buffy's break with Riley was based on her finding out that he was substantially less than normal -- metaphorically, he was cheating, which is normal, but in the context, he had set out on an obsessive journey into "the dark" where (according to Spike) Buffy "belongs". She didn't appreciate it, though. If she truly belonged "in the dark", she wouldn't object so totally, and may even be a little attracted, to Riley's new obsession.

[vampmogs]

It's also significant that Buffy's break with Riley was based on her finding out that he was substantially less than normal -- metaphorically, he was cheating, which is normal, but in the context, he had set out on an obsessive journey into "the dark" where (according to Spike) Buffy "belongs". She didn't appreciate it, though. If she truly belonged "in the dark", she wouldn't object so totally, and may even be a little attracted, to Riley's new obsession.

The same applies to when she learns Riley is involved in the demon world; the dark world she supposedly embraces in her relationships. Buffy nearly quits having a relationship with him before it even starts after realising Riley isn't a nice normal guy.

[ThePoet's<3]

Spike was just pointing out that Buffy will need something more than just a "normal" guy in her life - due to her current boyfriend experience (Angel/Dracula)

And Buffy didn't walk away from Riley just because of his "turning to the dark side". She turned away from him because he wanted to be closer to her and she wouldn't let him. When she wouldn't let him, he went in search of something else that did need him.

Truth is - she needs both. She won't be satisfied with a guy like Riley or a guy like Spike. Spike is not enough of a man (because he is a vampire)and Riley is not enough of a monster. Opposite ends of the spectrum. There has to be enough balance between the two.

[Valyssia]

As others have stated, falling for the same type can't really apply to Buffy. She fell for Angel, a mysterious vampire with a soul, Riley the nice normal guy and then Spike, the evil soulless monster. All three have pretty distinct characteristics and were hardly the same, which is why all three rubbed eachother up the wrong way.

I think Buffy deserves to say "poor me." She has been through a lot, your telling me if you had been torn out of heaven which was the first time you were at peace your whole life and put back into a cruel and violent environment you wouldn't be saying poor me? Or if you were chosen to defend the world against vampires and demons which basically made you a social outcast and condemned you to an early death? When all the other kids were getting exicted about the prospect of life after highschool with jobs in What's My Line I Buffy had to sit there knowing there was a good chance she'd die or never have a great job. What about the fact she could never even contemplate leaving Sunnydale when all her friends nearly did? Or being thrown into a position where she had to fight a god and keep Dawn safe based solely on the fact she was a slayer? Buffy had a great deal of things to complain about, and considering how Faith turned out I'd say she did a pretty good job.

Buffy says in Empty Places "I love my friends but that's the price of being a slayer." She understands what she has but can't help but feel a different way. She was unwillingly made different and it was extremely hard for her and was a condition of being someone with great power, Faith felt it to, it's a state of mind a slayer inherits rather than picks up.

And those who kicked Buffy out were proven to be wrong, she knew what she was talking about, they put someone in charge who most certainly wasn't ready to lead, got blown up... and then had to let Buffy back in because they sucked without her. And who was the more stupid here?



Yeah he slipped into the bad boy state and Buffy was extremely angry with his behaviour, she was far from drawn to him. She was equally as hesitant about having a relationship with him when she learnt he was a commando and not a nice normal guy. Buffy states in s4 "I am so over the bad boy thing!" Being with Spike was a result of her severe depression after being torn out of heaven, and basically needing to feel *something* even if it was disgust.

If you really want to pull show references into this... Let's just quote it...

Willow from Two to Go:

"You're trying to sell me on the world. The one where you lie to your friends when you're not trying to kill them? And you screw a vampire just to feel? And insane asylums are the comfy alternative? This world? Buffy, it's me. I know you were happier when you were in the ground. The only time you were ever at peace in your whole life is when you were dead. Until Willow brought you back."

Buffy from Conversations With Dead People:

"I feel like I'm worse than anyone. Honestly, I'm beneath them. My friends, my boyfriends. I feel like I'm not worthy of their love. 'Cause even though they love me, it doesn't mean anything 'cause their opinions don't matter. They don't know. They haven't been through what I've been through. They're not the slayer. I am. Sometimes I feel—(sighs) this is awful—I feel like I'm better than them. Superior."Buffy is not an emotionally, well or stable person at the end of S7. In fact...I'd call her a nightmare. She thrives on pain. It's part of the formula. She's been living it for so long that...amazing what you can get used to.

She started down this path with Angel and from there it was all about what she could find to replace that feeling with. She admits it herself. I could find the quote, but meh... I'm lazy.

As to whether she deserved what she got... That's hardly the bloody point. I've gotten a bunch of really crappy things out of life. We all do. It's what you do with them that counts. Did you grow and change as a person? Was it a move toward the bad or the good? She got the bad and went to the bad...and she shuts down so much that she barely sees the people around her at the end of S7.

Then in comic book land we have...
...a Buffy that cannot even feel sorry for herself in a linear fashion. Not so much the better.

This is all pointless though... The topic of the thread is Does Buffy Need a Little Monster in her Man?

I say absolutely...she's hooked on the pain.

Does she handle it well? Absolutely not...

So in short, she needs someone that can ground her. That's not of the norm in any way, shape or form... Who can smack her down, politely, when she goes off the deep and... Well and so on... Someone she can't break or scare off, that has enough of a heart to try to help her. Not sure if the answer is Spike...but you know, unless you care about S8 and comicbook land, none of this matters anyway.

Valyssia

[ThePoet's<3]

Then in comic book land we have...
...a Buffy that cannot even feel sorry for herself in a linear fashion. Not so much the better.

This is all pointless though... The topic of the thread is Does Buffy Need a Little Monster in her Man?

I say absolutely...she's hooked on a pain. Is that right? Does she handle it well? Absolutely not...

So in short she needs someone that can ground her. That's not of the norm in any way shape or form... Who can smack her down, politely when she goes off the deep and... Well and so on... Someone she can't break or scare off that has enough of a heart to try to help her. Not sure if the answer is Spike... But you know, unless you care about S8 and comicbook land, none of this matters anyway.

Valyssia

interesting comment Valyssia!! So - as we may be entering the

Bander Zone - in Season 8 comics -

Will that relationship have what it will take to satisfy the Buffster?? Will she still need the monster in the man? Or will we have another Ruffy experience?? (And yes KoC I have already put a "check" next to the appropriate column response for you... :D)

[Valyssia]

interesting comment Valyssia!! So - as we may be entering the

Bander Zone - in Season 8 comics -

Will that relationship have what it will take to satisfy the Buffster?? Will she still need the monster in the man? Or will we have another Ruffy experience?? (And yes KoC I have already put a "check" next to the appropriate column response for you... :D)

Xander is as 'of the norm' as we get in the show/ comic. I'm not a shipper of any sort. It could be someone totally new and I'd be pretty happy. In fact I'd be more happy. I just think somebody needs to feed her a Valium and a glass of wine. NOW!

Oh and get that Muppet Odin guy in the room too... Whoever that is... Maybe he's monster enough for our girl? *giggles*



Valyssia

[vampmogs]

Buffy is not an emotionally, well or stable person at the end of S7. In fact...I'd call her a nightmare. She thrives on pain. It's part of the formula. She's been living it for so long that...amazing what you can get used to.

I think it is a bit far stating that someone isn't emotionally stable because they have an inferiority and superiority complex. People think in all sorts of ways and it is likely the majority of us out there would fall under some diagnosis or category; does this mean we are emotionally unwell, no. I also would never state for a moment that by the end of s7 she thrives on pain. Buffy comes to a place in Chosen when she realises that she isn't done becoming whoever the hell she is going to turn out to be, she realises that a relationship ending isn't the end of the world and she's ok with this, hardly depressed. The very last shot we get of her in s7 is of her smiling, Joss describes this as a smile of hope and realisation of the possibilities now.

She started down this path with Angel and from there it was all about what she could find to replace that feeling with. She admits it herself. I could find the quote, but meh... I'm lazy.

She states that she feels hardened and that she closed herself off after Angel, she believes being the slayer is making her unable to feel. The First Slayer then proves her wrong stating that she is full of love.

As to whether she deserved what she got... That's hardly the bloody point. I've gotten a bunch of really crappy things out of life. We all do. It's what you do with them that counts. Did you grow and change as a person? Was it a move toward the bad or the good? She got the bad and went to the bad...and she shuts down so much that she barely sees the people around her at the end of S7.

I'm stating that she isn't addicted to the darkness, the darkness finds her and this is hardly her fault. Being the slayer puts her in these bad situations, Buffy didn't willingly choose to go from bad to bad, her life ended up like that because of her title. This doesn't make her addicted to the darkness but a victim of the darkness, she makes efforts time and time again to escape that.

Then in comic book land we have...
...a Buffy that cannot even feel sorry for herself in a linear fashion. Not so much the better.

Again, doesn't exactly make her emotionally unstable, just confused.

I say absolutely...she's hooked on the pain.

If she was hooked on the pain why was she so angry about Riley's trip to the darkness, she liked having Riley around as a conveniance more than anything else. This doesn't sound like someone addicted to pain, more yearning for a care-free easy life.

Does she handle it well? Absolutely not...

Buffy reached a very healthy state of mind at the end of season seven about her relationships.

So in short, she needs someone that can ground her. That's not of the norm in any way, shape or form... Who can smack her down, politely, when she goes off the deep and... Well and so on... Someone she can't break or scare off, that has enough of a heart to try to help her. Not sure if the answer is Spike...but you know, unless you care about S8 and comicbook land, none of this matters anyway.

I do care a lot about it, go to the section and you'll see I post on a regular basis in there and I own every issue that's available :) IMO Buffy deserves someone who can give her a normal life and to me that means a normal guy who is involved in her world but still has that sense of normality to ground Buffy.

Valyssia[/QUOTE]

[Valyssia]

This thread is getting a bit clunky so excuse me for not quoting you Vampmogs.

Let me simply offer this:

I believe, in order to be truly healthy, emotionally and otherwise we must accept who we are. We cannot hope to find peace until we're at peace with ourselves. Buffy is missing this...big time. That's what I mean by emotionally unhealthy or unstable. It might seem like an extreme view, but really it's pretty easy and quite true in my experience. She fights to find normal in a world where she can never be normal. Once she figures that out and finds peace in herself, it'll all be good.

Having a taste for the bad just shows how confused (as you say) she actually is. It's a textbook example of the standard abused kid syndrome. Not that Joyce was abusing her... There are a lot of ways that can happen. Just not feeling comfortable at home as a child, can create the insecurity, that evolves into this pattern. Anyway... It sort of speaks to self loathing on some level. She actually speaks about this in Conversations With Dead People. "My parents were not exactly the paragons of stay-together-y-ness." or some such...

I had a taste for the bad myself. Cost me a ton in the end... Lost a child to it... I know about paying a price for the past. Know it intimately... That's enough of the personal though.

I'm not half as silly as my more flippant posts may read. *wink* I just enjoy playing with language and the idea that I might make someone grin or groan.

_________________________________________________


Smiling hopefully because you've just made a huge change in the world... Not really surprising. I can see her doing that even if she's suffering on several other levels. It's an 'in the moment' sort of thing. I also don't think she's bothered to do the math at that point. 2500 new slayers, or whatever, means that life is going to get significantly more complex and weird for her. Yeah...in theory she'll have help, but you add the responsibility of training the new faces and the notion that one bad slayer can wreak some serious havoc to that...things don't get simpler...

This doesn't tell me she was at peace with herself or that her relationships with her friends were all sailing along smoothly. I think that the utter disregard she shows for the core members of her 'family' is pretty awful. You can still love someone even when they're treating you like total crap. The way Dawn, Willow, Giles, and Xander react to her shows they care, but you get the sense that it wears a bit thin. Most notably so when Dawn shows her the door. With so many people under so much extreme pressure, sitting in a vacuum, it can be hard to put your finger on exactly what will snap. Something is bound to though...

What will happen with her relationship wise remains to be seen. I'm not on the same ship as King of Cretins. I could actually care less, as I said. I just know that the character needs to grow a little.

Valyssia

[vampmogs]

This thread is getting a bit clunky so excuse me for not quoting you Vampmogs.

No problem :)

I believe, in order to be truly healthy, emotionally and otherwise we must accept who we are. We cannot hope to find peace until we're at peace with ourselves. Buffy is missing this...big time. That's what I mean by emotionally unhealthy or unstable. It might seem like an extreme view, but really it's pretty easy and quite true in my experience. She fights to find normal in a world where she can never be normal. Once she figures that out and finds peace in herself, it'll all be good.

In normal circumstances I would completely agree with you, however with Buffy, I find that I think she is in a more stable place because she doesn't accept who she is on some level. Take for example Faith; slayer who embraced her duties and that inkling of darkness and turned out horribly wrong. Buffy and Faith have their argument how Faith believes she is better than everyone, Buffy admits she feels like this to, difference is that Faith completely embraces said feelings whereas Buffy fights it. She has an inferiority complex about her superiority complex, she feels inferior and horrible that she would ever feel this way, she doesn't want to accept this. IMO that is far better than feeling your are superior and acting out in this way without any intention to try and think and do otherwise; that led Faith into some horrible outcomes. More importantly, I think Buffy has accepted her superiority and inferiority complex's as part of who she is, she is somewhat relieved it is all out in the open and seems to have acceptance of this.

The one confused Buffy about her role as the slayer seems to have utterly banished by s7. She can now openly admit that whilst she loves her friends she feels alone, something she can share openly with Faith who got a taste of her life. Before this Buffy felt alone but would dare not state a thing, certainly not in the open and accepting way she did in this scene. And then of course we have her finally establish her role as the leader of the potentials and the scoobies again, finding it within herself to actually smirk off and embrace the idea some of them would wished she hadn't been the slayer, she feels she is able to say all of this now; everything she had hidden and bottled up.

We have the cookie dough speech when Buffy finally learns it isn't the slayer that makes her relationships work out, it is just her age and that is ok.

I'd say Buffy was at an acceptance of who she was fully in that season. We also know that she did have a chance at a normal life and instead decided to deny it and still be a slayer, actually head of a whole slayer organisation; she didn't have to do this, no one could have made her.

[ThePoet's<3]

She fights to find normal in a world where she can never be normal. Once she figures that out and finds peace in herself, it'll all be good.

That's an excellent point Valyssia!

Buffy is not "normal" in the way we would maybe group other characters on her same level - she's a "superhero" of sorts. So a "normal" guy for Buffy may not be what we as individuals would point to as "normal".

As you say as soon as she makes peace with herself about what normal is for her - then she can enjoy sharing in a relationship.

And it may be that Buffy will never be at peace in one relationship. She may find that at different times her point of reference for "normal" will change. And the relationships will reflect that time in her life.

She may also have to accept that she may never have a constant relationsip. She may always be "cookie dough" and not settle into one relationship or any relationship. As long as she is a peace in her life about this there is nothing wrong with that decision either.

BTW I enjoy your posts - you always manage to keep your perspective!! ;)

[Valyssia]

If she were truly there Vampmogs...the monologue in the first comic wouldn't be there. She'd just be comfortable with where she is in life and that would be that. She's still floundering and figuring.

Thanks for the kudos, Poet!

Valyssia

[vampmogs]

If she were truly there Vampmogs...the monologue in the first comic wouldn't be there. She'd just be comfortable with where she is in life and that would be that. She's still floundering and figuring.

Thanks for the kudos, Poet!

Valyssia

She is uncomfortable out her situation for sure. She states how she misses her mother, the gang and her home, however IMO these are normal things that people who are comfortable with themselves can miss. Surely it would be normal for anyone to miss all these things that had grounded them in the early years, it is quite an adjustment moving from Sunnydale with a close knit circle of friends, to a Scottish Castle with dozens of girls at your command. I do not however think this means Buffy is necessarily uncomfortable with who she is and it is chilling how accepting she is that the whole world is against her; "kay."

IMO a normal guy would ground her. Sure Buffy isn't normal but she is in fact human and humanity is extremely important to her. That's why she refused to take the extra power the Shadow Men offered her, even though it could help them against the First. Her humanity is extremely important to her and she didn't want to be turning to stone, something she feels being a slayer might make happen. Having a normal guy who resembles the best qualities of humanity (IMO Xander) and who understands and is involved in her supernatural world would be a perfect blend IMO.

She certainly deserves more than a vampire who can't even take her into the light, Buffy may be the slayer but she is human as well.

[Valyssia]

You're perfectly welcome to ship who you wish. I really could care less.

Fact is...

You can't sell me that Buffy is all settled and comfortable. Her life, as you so eloquently pointed out a few posts back, has sucked. Beaten, stabbed and blown up... And those were the good days. She may've made some headway from the girl we saw in season 6, but it's not like she's managed to find the meaning of life in two years...let alone a little solace and some peace of mind. *wink* No one...I don't give a damn how good life is for them, has it all figured, in their early 20's. You make mistakes, you screw up, hopefully you learn. It's part of the process. Part of why life is so damned painful... You get to go through the whole finding comfort in yourself bit. Fun that was! Sign me up again! And while you're at it I want the acne back too.

I'm not going to sell you in my ideas either... That much is very apparent.

I personally think that Xander's a bad choice for her, but that's me. Hard to say what Joss'll do. Frankly... I think Xander is just a little too, Joe Every-Day-Guy to keep her happy for long. And that actually fits with the topic of this post. Finally, back around to the beginning.

She likes the pain... She may not rationally connect with it. In fact, she does seem to rally against it. That doesn't keep her from emotionally connecting with it.

Face it... If she did find something normal, even quasi-normal to fall into, with an average person who has 0 supernatural abilities she'd likely spend the better part of her days worrying about how life was going to come up and bite her in the bum over it. Life has manage to take just about everything else from her.

She'd be sitting there tapping her fingers on the side of the castle again...thought bubbles would be different...idea would be the same, but darker...

Oh...Kay... So when is this one going to be taken from me? I wonder if he'll die? Then with the stress...and well...it'd be ugly...

Xander had his eye very matter-of-factly poked out by Caleb. I wonder what part Amy will rip off him once she's clued in?

Anyway...not so much the mixy. That again is my opinion. And truth-be-told... None of our opinions me anything. Joss is writing the story. For all we know he'll scare/ amuse the heck out of us and build a Satsu/ Buffy relationship. Early 20's is not too old to change teams or play with the idea of being bi. Now wouldn't that be fun? Anyway...that was the last misdirect we got.

Frankly, I found the whole thing so 4th grade that I made comment in a short story I wrote that she sat up asking for breakfast. It was very satisfying.

Enjoy your night!

Valyssia

[vampmogs]

You can't sell me that Buffy is all settled and comfortable. Her life, as you so eloquently pointed out a few posts back, has sucked. Beaten, stabbed and blown up... And those were the good days. She may've made some headway from the girl we saw in season 6, but it's not like she's managed to find the meaning of life in two years...let alone a little solace and some peace of mind. *wink* No one...I don't give a damn how good life is for them, has it all figured, in their early 20's. You make mistakes, you screw up, hopefully you learn. It's part of the process. Part of why life is so damned painful... You get to go through the whole finding comfort in yourself bit. Fun that was! Sign me up again! And while you're at it I want the acne back too.

I wasn't aware anyone, wether they be 20 or 90 has ever discovered the meaning of life.. if they have please fill me in because I'd be really interested to know what it is. ;)

You say that she isn't comfortable with who she is but in Chosen that was what a part of the whole cookie dough speech was actually about. Buffy had realised that she hasn't done growing yet, she hasn't done becoming whoever the hell it is she turns out to be. As you said, no one has in their 20's but Buffy is comfortable with that, what she finally realised. I think this is as good as any twenty-sumthin is ever going to get, they'll never learn everything about themselves around that age but Buffy has finally grown comfortable knowing that. She was somewhat expecting everything to just make sense, she learnt a lesson that it didn't have to and that her relationships didn't fail because something was wrong with her, but because she hadn't done growing. This IMO doesn't make her emotionally unstable or uncomfortable with who she is, in fact this was Buffy at her most stable place since she realised that life gets harder back in s2's Lie To Me.

I personally think that Xander's a bad choice for her, but that's me. Hard to say what Joss'll do. Frankly... I think Xander is just a little too, Joe Every-Day-Guy to keep her happy for long. And that actually fits with the topic of this post. Finally, back around to the beginning.

Really? I've always been one to see Buffy alone, I like her better that way she seems to have a better grasp of her life when she is alone. However, I wouldn't ever say that Xander is just a joe normal, he plays a major part in running the new council and remember Buffy's surprise when she realises he won't be going into the portal with her to save Willow? Xander is the one reminding Buffy that he isn't a fighter, he knows no magic. A far cry from how she reacted to Riley wanting to come out on patrol with her back in the fith season.

She likes the pain... She may not rationally connect with it. In fact, she does seem to rally against it. That doesn't keep her from emotionally connecting with it.

Isn't that a little contradictory? You state she likes the pain but then that she seems to rally against it? Sure she connects emotionally with the pain, a big part of her life is about the pain; but that doesn't mean she likes it or wouldn't choose hapiness if it became an option for her.

Face it... If she did find something normal, even quasi-normal to fall into, with an average person who has 0 supernatural abilities she'd likely spend the better part of her days worrying about how life was going to come up and bite her in the bum over it. Life has manage to take just about everything else from her.

Like she worried about Angel dying after her dreams in Surprise? And as far as fighters go I'd say he was the cloest match Buffy had when it came to taking care of himself.

Oh...Kay... So when is this one going to be taken from me? I wonder if he'll die? Then with the stress...and well...it'd be ugly...

And Buffy wasn't worrying about that with Angel, a vampire who had been involved in the supernatural world long before she was born? Jo regular or supernatural guy; Buffy will always be a worrier it is just who she is.

Xander had his eye very matter-of-factly poked out by Caleb. I wonder what part Amy will rip off him once she's clued in?

And she ran Angel through with a sword and Spike burnt to death; both vampires... Buffy lives in a dangerous world and it looks like she always will; wether they be a normal guy or a demon her partner will always be in danger. Notedly, out of Angel, Spike and Xander, he has had the least damage to him.

Anyway...not so much the mixy. That again is my opinion. And truth-be-told... None of our opinions me anything. Joss is writing the story. [spoiler]For all we know he'll scare/ amuse the heck out of us and build a Satsu/ Buffy relationship. Early 20's is not too old to change teams or play with the idea of being bi. Now wouldn't that be fun? Anyway...that was the last misdirect we got.

I think opinions mean something, they may not change something but they mean something. I would hate a Buffy/ Satsu relationship simply because I don't believe Buffy would ever go into that.. I just can't see it.

[kana]

I'm glad to see my thread is getting so much attention :D.

I agree in general that we get what we expect although I have to say in Buffy's case that such circumstances seem to find her. I used to read Season 6 as a want to escape her responsibilities but while that may partly be true her 'fire' wasn't about destruction but living. Being a Slayer (as redefined by Buffy and chums) wasn't about death and lonliness it was about life. I love comparing her to Angel who at his low point in Season 2 of Ats tries to seek contact to lose something where Buffy tries to find something. Even when she's alone, she doesn't want to be alone and this drive whether she's thinking more positively or negatively is what keeps her alive (for the most part).

I don't think she seeks pain but I think her instinct is to connect which is why being a Slayer affects her more. She is definitely naturally an extroverted person and that's what Angel noticed when he first saw her. He could see her heart. The problem is that such people don't tend to deal with loneliness that well and in fact that what Buffy fights against which like I say causes her conflict but helps her to survive and do better than her predecessors. I suppose this explains why Buffy sometimes (well actually only once knowingly) may engage in an unhealthy relationship because its either that or deal with the lonelines by herself (coupled with various other issues, including the whole misbehaving issue which isn't necessarily to do with pain itself anyway). So forgive me if I find the whole 'Buffy likes a monster and likes pain' too much an over simplification.

[vampmogs]

I'm glad to see my thread is getting so much attention :D.

Well it's an interesting thread, and from memory one that has never been created before which is interesting considering how much talk in the forums there is about Buffy and her relationships. :)

I agree in general that we get what we expect although I have to say in Buffy's case that such circumstances seem to find her. I used to read Season 6 as a want to escape her responsibilities but while that may partly be true her 'fire' wasn't about destruction but living. Being a Slayer (as redefined by Buffy and chums) wasn't about death and lonliness it was about life. I love comparing her to Angel who at his low point in Season 2 of Ats tries to seek contact to lose something where Buffy tries to find something. Even when she's alone, she doesn't want to be alone and this drive whether she's thinking more positively or negatively is what keeps her alive (for the most part).

I agree with what you have said here. One of the first things Buffy states she hates about being the slayer, is that she lost all her friends and couldn't tell anyone about her secret. This seems to be a major burn for Buffy, seemingly she doesn't like being by herself which is ironic considering it is her birth right to be alone. In Welcome To The Hellmouth Buffy's kindness towards Willow, Xander and even to Cordelia is what eventually kept her alive. If she had remained secluded like Faith and Kendra and didn't try and fight her destiny and be 'normal,' she wouldn't be alive. As Spike states in Fool For Love her ties to the world are the thing that has kept her around as long as she has.

It is because of this I think Buffy needs anything but a monster in her man, she needs someone normal, someone human. She sought out friends instead of investing herself in her calling like Faith and Kendra did and because of this, she stayed alive. It makes sense to me that having a relationship with a normal guy would be exactly what she needs, to ground her in humanity and keep her somewhat involved with the ordinary world. After all, isn't the normal world what the slayer is chosen to protect? If Buffy gave up trying to be normal and was consumed by the supernatural world, even dating someone of that world, she looses what she is meant to be saving and as Spike states, it is her ties to the world that keeps her alive.

I don't think she seeks pain but I think her instinct is to connect which is why being a Slayer affects her more. She is definitely naturally an extroverted person and that's what Angel noticed when he first saw her. He could see her heart. The problem is that such people don't tend to deal with loneliness that well and in fact that what Buffy fights against which like I say causes her conflict but helps her to survive and do better than her predecessors. I suppose this explains why Buffy sometimes (well actually only once knowingly) may engage in an unhealthy relationship because its either that or deal with the lonelines by herself (coupled with various other issues, including the whole misbehaving issue which isn't necessarily to do with pain itself anyway). So forgive me if I find the whole 'Buffy likes a monster and likes pain' too much an over simplification.

Agreed. Buffy doesn't seek out people because she enjoys the misery, she seeks them out because she wants to feel something and not be alone. As for example, in the Spuffy relationship Buffy tells him over and over again that she is using him, and sings to him in OMWF (and they have to sign the truth remember) saying that she just wants to feel. Buffy would rather feel anything than be alone, she just needs to feel.

[Valyssia]

I wasn't aware anyone, wether they be 20 or 90 has ever discovered the meaning of life.. if they have please fill me in because I'd be really interested to know what it is. ;)

The meaning of life is different for each one of us. That's why the question is so difficult to answer. It's not something you can put a broad label on. If you really want to know what it is for you, next week and maybe the week after, do this...

Deprive yourself of all stimulation until the answer comes. Make sure you have lots of simple things to eat and drink, within reach, before you start. Wanting for physical needs corrupts the process unless you're just used to fasting. If you're like me you'll begin by sleeping until you can't sleep anymore. Then comes the brain spin. When that finishes...you'll have it figured. Enjoy!

But you totally know that the reason I mentioned the meaning of life was to be flippant, right? ;)

Isn't that a little contradictory? You state she likes the pain but then that she seems to rally against it? Sure she connects emotionally with the pain, a big part of her life is about the pain; but that doesn't mean she likes it or wouldn't choose hapiness if it became an option for her.

Of course it's contradictory... We're all full of contradictions. That's the head/ heart fight you so often see poets wax on about. It's actually the mark of a well written character. Buffy is full of foibles, that's why we love her. She can speak very eloquently one moment about not wanting something (the rational) and fall right into exactly what she said she didn't want the next. (the emotional) It's a thing...trust me... If you've never had your head and your heart fail to meet on a point you're a very unique person.

It's the blood/ brain thing Spike talks about... Someone here has the quote in their sig. Look around.


Rationally she doesn't want it. Emotionally she connects with it.

Love the juxtaposition of views.


Isn't having an inferiority and superiority complex sort of the same animal?

The rational says: You're better than them.

The emotional says: And you're a total arse for feeling that way.

Is that healthy? Prolly not.


That's exactly why this point is so difficult to argue...

Does she need a little monster in her man? Yes and No <--the real answer.

Is that healthy? Prolly not.

I think opinions mean something, they may not change something but they mean something. I would hate a Buffy/ Satsu relationship simply because I don't believe Buffy would ever go into that.. I just can't see it.

I said exactly that not long ago myself. Then I realized exactly how closed minded it was. Closed minded is not me so...my thinking evolved.

The truth of the matter is that unless you're just really homophobic, what happens for any of us on that level, is sorta up to the individual. I've seen people that I thought were totally straight, (no gaydar response at all) gravitate toward a same sex relationship, as far along in life as their late 30's. Nothing that indicated that pattern may exist before. It's actually easier for women because the social taboo is not so great.

It's another emotional thing... It's not supposed to make sense. Rational patterns don't apply.

I'm not one to get really judgey about such things. I've got no room. If Joss tells me it's in Buffy's heart to go one way or another I'll just smile and nod. After all it's his character. Who better to know her heart.

Valyssia