Which Buffy baddie was the strongest?

[Vampmaster]

So after some discussion I found that my friends and me had some very different over whom was the strongest of the bad guys on Buffy. Some simply think that the bad guys grew stronger as each season progressed though I personally disagree with this… So I figured I’d start this thread and find out what each of the member’s thought of.

So basically starting from the strongest to the weakest. List the Buffy’s baddies. Also please actually write reasons for why you have given them the position you have. Please try to remember this is about their strength. Not your favourite to least favourite bad guy. So I’ll start off.

1.Glory~ Truthfully she is my favourite but that is not why I have seen her this spot. Firstly I think we have seen the most displays of strength from her a key example being how simply stamping her foot on the floor can cause a full building to collapse. Secondly she is a god and in addition to great strength has displayed supernatural speed as well. The key example being when she chased her and Dawn after realizing that Dawn was the key. The final reason why I have given Glory this position is due to the fact that she is the only bad guy who was impossible to kill when in his own form.

2. The First/Caleb~ I felt that these two villains are one more than anyone else so I am going to have them placed together. As a Bad guy I disliked the first due to the fact that it didn’t really do anything other than to taunt the good guys. I did however enjoy the way that it could get right under your skin. I loved Caleb as a bad guy and see him as showing us the potential strength of the first had it succeeded in achieving corporal form hence why I am reviewing them as one. I give him this position because next to Glory he is the only villain who we have seen who is so much physically stronger than a Slayer. However he has never displayed the speed of Glory nor is he immortal, as we have seen from Buffy cutting him with the scythe.

3. Dark Willow~ While I know that she doesn’t necessarily count as the big villain of the series. With the exception of Warren none of the trio were really evil but simply misguided hence why I am going to look at Willow instead. I think Willow deserves third place because firstly through the magic’s we know that she can give herself strength equal to the Slayer. Whether she can exceed it or not we never really saw on screen so using what we have been given. I am going to assume not. Willow in her dark form is the most powerful magical being in the world and potentially destroyed the world without help of annoying minions.

4. Angelus~ I am giving this place to Angelus not because of his simple strength but because of the physcological games he played with Buffy and the gang. He managed to get to them in ways that no other bad guy has managed to and the fact that he was at one point close to all of the gang (with the exception of Xander) gives him that little boost. We also know that he is above the strength of your average vampire.

5. The Mayor~ I think that the mayor deserves this place for a number of reasons. Firstly for the majority of the season he was immune to getting killed by all weapons. Something that was rather nifty and the only other character to have such a claim would be Glory. We also know that while the mayor did not possess much physical strength himself. He was crafty and had contacts. Hell he managed to convert a Slayer and as it was once stated on the show “A rogue slayer. I couldn’t think of anything more terrifying.”

6. The Master~ Ah the master. I didn’t really like much as a bad guy. To me it seemed as though he just spent an entire season ordering other’s about with the example of prophecy. The master even then did not seem to show a great display of strength and rather managed to get Buffy through hypnosis. Also while we are given the impression that he is intelligent. I think it was rather idiotic of him to not ensure that Buffy was impossible to bring back either by draining her or snapping her neck or something.

7. Adam deserves this place of last to me. I haven’t watched Season 4 in ages and really should do so. But Adam was a horrible bad guy and he certainly did not display the abilities of other bad guys we have seen in the show. However I do acknowledge the fact that it took the combined efforts of the scoobie gang to kill him… But then don’t most bad guys? Even if it isn’t necessary to morph as one to do so…

[vampmogs]

I think your slightly underestimating the strength and threat Adam had and was. I would say he was more of a threat than the Mayor in human form ever was. Sure the Mayor was invincible but as you said, had no physical strength whatsoever so could have easily been captured and obtained. Adam on the otherhand had great strength, Buffy was no match for him without the spell calling on the power of the slayer and it was stated he couldn't even be killed by having his head chopped off. The guy had a rocket launcher on his arm, as well as great strength and was practically un-killable himself.

And as far as minions go, yeah the Mayor had vampire minions but Buffy had trouble fighting just one of Adam's minions (Forest) so he has a potential to have a far greater minion army than the Mayor ever did.

[Vampmaster]

True and I am the first to admit that I haven't watched Season 4 in a while and perhaps if I had watched it recently my list would have changed...

However I disagree with what you are saying in regards to minions and army. I think the Mayor had the greater potential. Firstly because he had a Slayer on his side. Secondly he had far greater contacts than Adam and had control over the life of the scoobies that no other baddie had.

Just another note... God I need to rewatch Season 3/4 once I can get them on DVD... Oh and Vampmogs what order would you place them in? Or do you agree with mine with the exception of where I placed Adam and the mayor...

[Pandora's_Box]

1. The First: For me it's obvious, he doesn't have corporeal form, and lives since the begining, so he's completely immortal, as Botox (:p ) Eye told Giles and Anya. What a better proof than this: Buffy never killed it.

2. Darth Willow: Most powerful wicca one that part of the globe, she can pretty much do everything and kill someone faster than a...well something really fast. And here again, Gles cured her only because he couldn't kill her.

3. Glory: She only have the third place because she's part human which make her at some part of the day the weakest of the seven baddies...But as a God, sure, she kick ass.

4. The Mayor: Like Glory, he's unbreakable as Richard Wilkins, so pretty much immortal, but after the ascension, he was pretty much a big snake (like the from Band Candy), always found stupid than an immortal man wants to become a mortal snake...He's after Glory in the rank only because he have no power, n attack skills in his immortal form.

5. Adam: Really strong and powerful that's obvious, but unlike the fourth first, he probably can be killed with a rocket launcher, but with his gatling, it's better be a fast shoot

6. The Master: He is strong and have some psychic powers, sure! But he is a vampire, a stake in the heart, sunbathing and still my dear friend the rocket launcher...

7. Angelus: Obvious for me too, really surprised to see him in the 4 or 5th rank, he's a vampire like the master butminus the psychic powers, looks weaker than a Turok-Han for me, he was just hard to kill for Buffy because of heir past...But despite that, just a simple vampire...

[Vampmaster]

7. Angelus: Obvious for me too, really surprised to see him in the 4 or 5th rank, he's a vampire like the master butminus the psychic powers, looks weaker than a Turok-Han for me, he was just hard to kill for Buffy because of heir past...But despite that, just a simple vampire...

As I said before... I don't believe that Angelus's strength lied in brute strength but rather in the way that he could get to Buffy in the way that no other villain has before. It has been stated numerous times on the show that Angelus enjoyed playing with his victims before killing them... Drusilla being a key example of this. We also know that he is stronger than the average vampire also.

The influence that he had on Buffy and the gang. The way he could get through to her and how Buffy struggled to kill him is the reason why I gave Angelus the place I did...

[Pandora's_Box]

We also know that he is stronger than the average vampire also.

Oh really, and why is that, what proffs can you show that he's powerful than regular vamp...

The influence that he had on Buffy and the gang. The way he could get through to her and how Buffy struggled to kill him is the reason why I gave Angelus the place I did...

He could only do that because we has a souled vampire first and Buffy fell in love with him, other than that, she would have killed him like she kills vampires every night...And by the way a rocket shot by Adam must be a little more effectve, except when she's under the spell where Angelus couldn't do a thing

Drusilla being a key example of this

True, but she's just a human at this time, he did what the others would do in a simple way...

[vampmogs]

Oh really, and why is that, what proffs can you show that he's powerful than regular vamp...

You want proof that Angelus is stronger than the regular vampire? Okay, but I really don't see why it is needed; it is pretty evident seeing that Angel is stronger than the average vampire.

Angelus nearly kills Buffy in Becoming II, something a regular vamp can't boast of, Buffy kills them on a regular basis.

Angelus beats the crap out of Faith in s4 of Ats, when earlier Faith dusts two regular vampires with ease.

Angelus has killed regular vampires without breaking a sweat.

Angelus has minion vampires working for him because they fear him; due to the fact he could kill them if he wanted to.

And then of course we have Angel who Angelus is just as powerful as, whom kills regular vamps on a regular basis.

He could only do that because we has human first and Buffy fell in love with him, other than that, she would have killed him like she kills vampires every night...

Angelus wasn't just an ordinary vampire, he wouldn't have had other vampires working for him if they believed they could take him in a fight. Take Lovers Walk as an example. The vampire who used to work for Spike turns on him because he believes he has gone 'soft.' Gaining respect is everything, a vampire only has vampire minions if the minions fear them; they fear them because their leader could dust them if they wanted to. That's why Harmony's minions turn on her, because she wasn't any stronger than the average vamp, it is why Spike's turn on him when they believe he has gone soft.

[Pandora's_Box]

Angelus nearly kills Buffy in Becoming II, something a regular vamp can't boast of, Buffy kills them on a regular basis.

A regular vampire nearly killed her in "Fool For Love"...

[vampmogs]

A regular vampire nearly killed her in "Fool For Love"...

And it was a massive shock for Buffy, she screwed up and she didn't know why. She was being carless and the vampire was opportunistic. However, look how easily Riley killed him later that episode in the crypt, could you honestly suggest Riley could have killed Angelus just as easily?

Buffy was shocked that a regular vampire would have done that to her, as was Riley as he automatically assumes it must have been a gang of vampires or a superior vampire. With Angelus, Buffy wasn't shocked that he nearly killed her; if anything it was to be expected that it was going to be an extremely dangerous encounter.

And to further show that Angel/Angelus were stronger than the average vampire;

GILES: Buffy this isn't any ordinary vampire, he's faced the three this is going to take a lot more than a simple stake!

[Vampmaster]

Oh really, and why is that, what proffs can you show that he's powerful than regular vamp...

Since Vampmogs has already answered this rather efficiently for me... I'll not add anything else to this... Other than to say thanks Vampmogs.

He could only do that because we has a souled vampire first and Buffy fell in love with him, other than that, she would have killed him like she kills vampires every night...And by the way a rocket shot by Adam must be a little more effectve, except when she's under the spell where Angelus couldn't do a thing

Yes your absolutely right. Angelus had a greater influence over Buffy due to his having a soul. However the circumstances under which the Villains power comes from isn't really under question but rather what power they have within the show. Also another thing even without the soul I'd imagine Angelus getting under Buffy's skin even pre souled. Angelus didn't usually deal with his opponents face to face at least not without some pyschological games first. Take Holtz as an example of this and how he and Darla killed his family..

True, but she's just a human at this time, he did what the others would do in a simple way...

And? I don't really see your point here... True Buffy as the Slayer has certain advantages to the rest of us. But I have never heard it said that her Slayer abilities allow her to cope with loss of family, etc any better than the average person though admittedly Buffy does have a strong inner strength. But I don't believe this is due to her being a Slayer...

[Pandora's_Box]

However the circumstances under which the Villains power comes from isn't really under question but rather what power they have within the show.

I'll totally agreeing with you except here, the villian is Angelus, not Angel....

:p Looks like a Bangel conspiration, i'm joking, well it's interesting to have differents points of view, we'll see others when they'll enter...But it was nice defending our POV anyway...

[Vampmaster]

I'll totally agreeing with you except here, the villian is Angelus, not Angel....

:p Looks like a Bangel conspiration, i'm joking, well it's interesting to have differents points of view, we'll see others when they'll enter...But it was nice defending our POV anyway...

Hehe you got me there I must admit.. Though technically since Angelus/Angel are the same person to a certain degree... It is fair to say that Angelus strength can be gained from his time as Angel.

And haha as for Bangel... I think I actually prefer Buffy when she is single. And yeah it was nice having a discussion on my POV with you Pandora's box...

Now its the next person turn to state their order of strength..

[kana]

could you honestly suggest Riley could have killed Angelus just as easily?

We know he couldn't, because even with his superstrength Riley could barely stand after his confrontation with Angel and that was just Angel acting out emotionally over Buffy's relationship with Riley. Riley without his strength and a vamp like Angelus with intention to kill, wouldn't like Riley's chances.

In any respect I tried looking at all the villains before but I looked at them as effectiveness as villains. In terms of brute strength perhaps...

1. Glory
2. Adam
3. Dark Willow (she seemed equal to Buffy in terms of physical strength when she embued herself mystically)
4. The Master
5. Angelus
6. The Mayor (who aside from immortality didn't seem to display any preternatural strength)
7. The First (which technically couldn't touch so would judge as being physically the weakest.)

[amy1234]

1. The First/Caleb
I agree with Pandoras box Buffy didnt kill the first she only hurt it real bad, and they are the ultimate evil!
2. Dark Willow
She is the ultimate witch, and buffy could defand her corner but thats it i think, i think dark willow could of really hurt her if giles hadn't come in and even if she didnt have as many powers i think it would of been hard for buffy to kill her due to what friendship they shared.
3. Glory
I know it looks like im copying Pandoras box but im not i think she was the 3rd strongest seen as though she was a god i mean, she had some strengh! If it wasn't for her human half and Giles i dont know how she would of killed her
4. Adam
He was really strong, and buffy again wouldnt have stood a chance towards him if it wasnt for the scooby gang, and the essence of the slayer.
5. Angelus
I think Angelus was really hard for buffy to kill as she really did love him, and it was her first love, like you've proved above he wasn't an ordinary vampire, and i think it was even harder for buffy when angel got his soul back and she had to kill him
6. The mayor
I didnt like the mayer as a baddie he seemed not bad deep down but did if ya get me it was weird for me, but he couldn't be killed in his human form and was very scary as a pure demon but i dont think he was a hard kill like the others above
7. The master
He was a vampire and a stake and sunlight could of killed him, me really i think he was pretty thick not makin sure buffy was really dead and goner, because she was the biggest threat to him, and when she came back she really did show him i thought.

[Vampmaster]

2. Dark Willow
She is the ultimate witch, and buffy could defand her corner but thats it i think, i think dark willow could of really hurt her if giles hadn't come in and even if she didnt have as many powers i think it would of been hard for buffy to kill her due to what friendship they shared.

What you have raised here is a rather interesting point... However honestly I don't believe that Dark Willow deserves her place above Glory... I mean using the magicks she could only bring her physical strength to being equal to that of a Slayer and while she was a seriously powerful witch underneath it all she was still only human.

3. Glory
I know it looks like im copying Pandoras box but im not i think she was the 3rd strongest seen as though she was a god i mean, she had some strengh! If it wasn't for her human half and Giles i dont know how she would of killed her

Yes you have got a point that Glory's human half seriously weakened her, but then should we even count Ben as being apart of Glory? I mean I know I have defended Angel as being apart of Angelus. But then they were apart of the same person. Only one had a soul and so morals and the other didn't. However with Glory and Ben they were two different people occupying the same body. Everything about them is entirely different, their looks their persoanlity and seeing as with the exception of the The Gift they couldn't remember anything the other did. They never learned or gained anything from one another..

In summary if you count Ben as with Glory... She doesn't deserve First place. Without however seeing as I said previously her and Ben are two differently people and Ben wasn't really a villain just someone who was scared for their own life... I would still stick to my claim that Glory is the strongest.

[amy1234]

In summary if you count Ben as with Glory... She doesn't deserve First place. Without however seeing as I said previously her and Ben are two differently people and Ben wasn't really a villain just someone who was scared for their own life... I would still stick to my claim that Glory is the strongest.

I agree with you glory was the strongest but due to ben, he made her weaker, you can say he is another person entirly but they shared the same body which made her weaker and gave buffy and the scooby gang an upper hand on killing her.

What you have raised here is a rather interesting point... However honestly I don't believe that Dark Willow deserves her place above Glory... I mean using the magicks she could only bring her physical strength to being equal to that of a Slayer and while she was a seriously powerful witch underneath it all she was still only human.
Yea she was still human i agree and i didnt know she could bring her physical strenght the same as the buffy, but if that was true wouldnt they be equally matched , i havent watched that episode in a while but i think willow had the upper hand if i can remember rightly, if giles hadn't walked in i think she would of finished buffy off, so thats what made me lead to think she was stonger than buffy at that point

[KingofCretins]

On pure physical strength?

Glory is #1 and it's not a close thing. After her I'd say Caleb was the second strongest, he knocked Buffy out cold with a single shot. After that, I'd say Adam was next. Vampires are all essentially on the same wavelength in terms of physical strength, although I do personally think there is some degree of blood potency involved in the Buffyverse vampires, or at least that's how I fanwank Angel, Spike, Darla, and Drusilla being so tough -- the direct lineage from the Master.

Physically strongest overall villain in the Buffyverse I'm going to say Jasmine, and, again, not a close thing. I'd also say that Illyria would be stronger than Caleb, but weaker than Glory.

[tangent]

1. The First Evil
The First can never be killed, never be destroyed and, as part of the evil in everything and everybody arguably made up part of every other big bad. Not my favourite in show villain and reliant on its minions to a greater extent than the others but still it is the original and the most powerful.
2. Dark Willow
Incredibly powerful magic user who is able to withstand an axe in the back and still bounce back, raise her strength to slayer levels and raise fireballs, energy bolts and mud monsters as well as who knows what else. Her weakness seems to be that she needs to keep her power level up which could cause a problem but she could do this the same way as glory by the looks of things by absorbing others power. It is notable that it is only deception that beats Willow in the end and that out of all the coporeal Big bads that buffy faces Willow is the only one she doesn't even come close to killing
3. Glory
Incredibly strong and all but unkillable, Glory is one hard lady. However the reason i have her so low is two fold. As with willow she has an issue with her power running low. She seems to need to brain suck regurlarly in order to keep her strength up and her sanity whole. Then of course there is her greatest weakness which is her seemingly uncontrollable transformations into Ben. Not a good move in a fight. This to me means she has two big weakness's she also seems to not be the brightest god in the heavens.
4. Adam
Strong, intelligent and unemotional, Adam is one killer cyborg. He is not however the most fearsome of the foes that buffy has faced and i think would come off worse in a fight with any of the above.
5. The Master
I think that those who rank Angelus above the master forget one thing. The Master has kicked Angelus's arse. He is a highly intelligent vampire who is amongst the oldest we have seen and has shown time and again to instill fear and respect in those who have come up against him, incluing Angelus. He also has those coll hypnotic powers, seemingly to a greater degree than even Dru. His incarceration is a problem certainly but he is clever and devious enough to win his freedom eventually and had he established himself above ground might well have proved a hugely dangerous opponent. he is also the only Big Bad to actually kill Buffy.
6.Angelus
A close run thing between Angelus and the Master but the Master wins for the above given reasons. Angelus is definitely stronger more vicious and more imaginative than the vast majority of vampires but that strain of poetic nastiness which gives him his unique edge could also be a weakness. After all he could have taken care of Buffy many time before he did.
7. The mayor
I love the mayor as a character but in the power stake he just does not match up to any of the above. He may be unkillable after the ritual but his ability to do harm is almost non-existant until he turns all snakey and once that happens we know the rest.

[Vampmaster]

I agree with you glory was the strongest but due to ben, he made her weaker, you can say he is another person entirly but they shared the same body which made her weaker and gave buffy and the scooby gang an upper hand on killing her.

I completely agree with what your saying... which is why I think it can be counted either way.... I'd place Glory perhaps 2nd or 3rd in my list including Ben.

Yea she was still human i agree and i didnt know she could bring her physical strenght the same as the buffy, but if that was true wouldnt they be equally matched , i havent watched that episode in a while but i think willow had the upper hand if i can remember rightly, if giles hadn't walked in i think she would of finished buffy off, so thats what made me lead to think she was stonger than buffy at that point

Well perhaps Willow's power exceeded Buffy slightly! But if I remember correctly Willow and Buffy were pretty even matched at least in terms of physical strength. I think Willow would have eventually won though due to her magical abilities. That's another episode I need to rewatch soon..

On pure physical strength?

Glory is #1 and it's not a close thing. After her I'd say Caleb was the second strongest, he knocked Buffy out cold with a single shot. After that, I'd say Adam was next. Vampires are all essentially on the same wavelength in terms of physical strength, although I do personally think there is some degree of blood potency involved in the Buffyverse vampires, or at least that's how I fanwank Angel, Spike, Darla, and Drusilla being so tough -- the direct lineage from the Master.

Hmm I have got to agree. I think that the fact that they are descended from the master certainly allows them certain abilities over other vampires. However I do credit a lot of their abilities due to their age.

Physically strongest overall villain in the Buffyverse I'm going to say Jasmine, and, again, not a close thing. I'd also say that Illyria would be stronger than Caleb, but weaker than Glory.

Hmm I wasn't actually planning on including ATs in this seeing as I haven't seen S4 of Angel so I can't judge Jasmine. Though I do agree with what you said about Illyria being stronger than Caleb weaker than Glory.

1. The First Evil
2. Dark Willow
Incredibly powerful magic user who is able to withstand an axe in the back and still bounce back, raise her strength to slayer levels and raise fireballs, energy bolts and mud monsters as well as who knows what else. Her weakness seems to be that she needs to keep her power level up which could cause a problem but she could do this the same way as glory by the looks of things by absorbing others power. It is notable that it is only deception that beats Willow in the end and that out of all the coporeal Big bads that buffy faces Willow is the only one she doesn't even come close to killing

Deception? I am sorry but wasn't Willow ultimate defeat in the end really her love for Xander?

5. The Master
I think that those who rank Angelus above the master forget one thing. The Master has kicked Angelus's arse. He is a highly intelligent vampire who is amongst the oldest we have seen and has shown time and again to instill fear and respect in those who have come up against him, incluing Angelus. He also has those coll hypnotic powers, seemingly to a greater degree than even Dru. His incarceration is a problem certainly but he is clever and devious enough to win his freedom eventually and had he established himself above ground might well have proved a hugely dangerous opponent. he is also the only Big Bad to actually kill Buffy.

Yes while it is true that the master has kicked Angelus's arse in the past. We must also remember that this was while Angelus was still a fledging vampire. Do you honestly believe that the Angelus/Angel of today would not be able to defeat the master? Also as I have said previously I credit Angelus for his brain games, his ability to hurt his opponents where it hurts mentally and emotionally and that is why he gets a higher ranking than the master. As for killing Buffy she was pretty inexperienced at the time. I mean could you really imagine him killing Season 7 Buffy?

[tangent]

Deception? I am sorry but wasn't Willow ultimate defeat in the end really her love for Xander?

Yes but only because Giles managed to get her to absorb the magic he had and which contained the seeds of humanity needed to bring her back from the brink - hence deception. he poin still holds either way that buffy never stopped Dark Willow.

Do you honestly believe that the Angelus/Angel of today would not be able to defeat the master?

Yes i do. In 'The Harvest' Angel openly admits to being afraid of the master, In Prophecy girl Angel only goes to help Buffy take on the Master because Xander makes him and Dopplegangland Angel is kept as a pet by the Master.

Take that with the fact that the master is older than Angel and is the head of a powerful order (not a position you get without having a lot of power yourself) and i would say there is definite evidence that the Master is stronger than Angel.

[KingofCretins]

Well perhaps Willow's power exceeded Buffy slightly! But if I remember correctly Willow and Buffy were pretty even matched at least in terms of physical strength.

Willow didn't have her magic until the very end of the fight -- she overpowered Buffy, slow and steady, throughout. Willow was stronger. Once she had taken out Anya's spell, Willow could have finished Buffy off easily, and appeared to be planning to.

The Master was a pretty powerful vampire, but I don't think he's an overmatch for any of his progeny. It would have been an uphill fight, though. Angel could take him, but it's iffy.

[Vampmaster]

Yes but only because Giles managed to get her to absorb the magic he had and which contained the seeds of humanity needed to bring her back from the brink - hence deception. he poin still holds either way that buffy never stopped Dark Willow.

Ah your right! I actually forgot about that... Thank you for reminding me Tangent...

Yes i do. In 'The Harvest' Angel openly admits to being afraid of the master, In Prophecy girl Angel only goes to help Buffy take on the Master because Xander makes him and Dopplegangland Angel is kept as a pet by the Master.

Take that with the fact that the master is older than Angel and is the head of a powerful order (not a position you get without having a lot of power yourself) and i would say there is definite evidence that the Master is stronger than Angel.

While it's true that in the earlier seasons of Buffy Angel was afraid of the master. We must also remember that Angel was new to the fight of good versus evil. He has not yet gotten to the point where he knows of his full potential. Plus I have noticed that Angel's fighting skills from Season 2 of Buffy on wards improve by a massive amount. So I do think that Angel would defeat the master...

As for the Dopplegangland this is a land in which Angel never joined the fight against evil. He never got the opportunity to enhance his fighting abilities.. which is why I think that the master succeeded in turning him into his little pet.

Willow didn't have her magic until the very end of the fight -- she overpowered Buffy, slow and steady, throughout. Willow was stronger. Once she had taken out Anya's spell, Willow could have finished Buffy off easily, and appeared to be planning to.

The Master was a pretty powerful vampire, but I don't think he's an overmatch for any of his progeny. It would have been an uphill fight, though. Angel could take him, but it's iffy.

Yes I think that Willow was slowly but steadily defeating Buffy throughout the fight however I think that in terms of physical strength they are matched. However I feel that Willow was putting her abilities to better use... Also their is a chance that Buffy was holding herself back somewhat even sub consciously. However this isn't something which is proven so I won't use it as an argument.

[KingofCretins]

Don't let Buffy off the hook. She cast her lot when she said she'd show Willow what a Slayer was. She can't cry off from those stakes, whether she decided to try to talk Willow down in mid-fight or not. Willow gave Buffy the every square inch treatment that she said that Buffy needed.

If you're curious, I'd put DarkWillow above Caleb and Adam, but below Jasmine, Glory, and Illyria.

[vampmogs]

Don't let Buffy off the hook. She cast her lot when she said she'd show Willow what a Slayer was. She can't cry off from those stakes, whether she decided to try to talk Willow down in mid-fight or not. Willow gave Buffy the every square inch treatment that she said that Buffy needed.

If you're curious, I'd put DarkWillow above Caleb and Adam, but below Jasmine, Glory, and Illyria.

I don't think Buffy was fighting at her full potential for a moment. Compare her fighting against Willow to Glory and you'll see what I mean. When she's pissed and at her best Buffy makes sure you know it, remember her beating Glory senseless with no mercy whatsoever in The Gift? She didn't allow Glory any chance to fight back, she was full on and giving her no opportunities. Mid-way through the fight with Willow she catches her punch and instead of immediatly attacking Willow whilst she was vulnerable, offers to help her stop. This gives Willow a chance to strike her several times hard in the face. Buffy was less than gun ho...

Notedly, after that when we return to the fight Buffy seems to have given up on that option, beats Willow in the face and hurls her through the shelves of the shop; I think this was Buffy starting to fight like she needed to. I don't see how you can really say she was fighting as hard as she could when she stops mid fight and tries to reason with Willow instead of attacking her when she had the chance?

Willow was more powerful than Buffy because she has more abilities but if she had continued to fight Buffy hand to hand, IMO would have gotten her arse kicked in the end.

I also wouldn't say in terms of fighting ability Willow was stronger than Adam. Buffy kicks and punches Adam and it barley effects him; she hurls Willow across the room. Willow is probably stronger than Adam because of her magics but I don't believe could muster the same physical strength as Adam had.

[jdt1986]

I think Dark Willow had the potential to be the strongest by far... Consider this, whereas the other big bads had their limits based on their species etc, the magicks Willow controlled could have been unlimited for all we know. Consider that, near the end of S5, Willow caused Glory, A GOD, physical pain through use of magicks, and she wasn't even at full power. Adam was destroyed by the use of magicks which granted incredible strength (to Buffy, granted, but I think willow was the 'magick' part of that equation). It's only a shame we couldn't have seen Dark Willow for a longer period of time in order to study her powers more thoroughly... I would have loved to have seen Glory Vs. S6 Dark Willow...

Jamie

[Vampmaster]

I don't think Buffy was fighting at her full potential for a moment. Compare her fighting against Willow to Glory and you'll see what I mean. When she's pissed and at her best Buffy makes sure you know it, remember her beating Glory senseless with no mercy whatsoever in The Gift? She didn't allow Glory any chance to fight back, she was full on and giving her no opportunities. Mid-way through the fight with Willow she catches her punch and instead of immediatly attacking Willow whilst she was vulnerable, offers to help her stop. This gives Willow a chance to strike her several times hard in the face. Buffy was less than gun ho...

Notedly, after that when we return to the fight Buffy seems to have given up on that option, beats Willow in the face and hurls her through the shelves of the shop; I think this was Buffy starting to fight like she needed to. I don't see how you can really say she was fighting as hard as she could when she stops mid fight and tries to reason with Willow instead of attacking her when she had the chance?

Willow was more powerful than Buffy because she has more abilities but if she had continued to fight Buffy hand to hand, IMO would have gotten her arse kicked in the end.

I also wouldn't say in terms of fighting ability Willow was stronger than Adam. Buffy kicks and punches Adam and it barley effects him; she hurls Willow across the room. Willow is probably stronger than Adam because of her magics but I don't believe could muster the same physical strength as Adam had.

Thank you Vampmogs for explaining what I would have said in a much clearer way than I likely would have!

I think Dark Willow had the potential to be the strongest by far... Consider this, whereas the other big bads had their limits based on their species etc, the magicks Willow controlled could have been unlimited for all we know. Consider that, near the end of S5, Willow caused Glory, A GOD, physical pain through use of magicks, and she wasn't even at full power. Adam was destroyed by the use of magicks which granted incredible strength (to Buffy, granted, but I think willow was the 'magick' part of that equation). It's only a shame we couldn't have seen Dark Willow for a longer period of time in order to study her powers more thoroughly... I would have loved to have seen Glory Vs. S6 Dark Willow...

Jamie

Actually that's quite an interesting point that you have raised! And one that I find myself agreeing with despite the fact that I never overly considered it before. But then at the same time we must remember that while Willow was powerful magically she was still essentially human. We have been given no edivence that had Willow have been shot or stabbed that she wouldn't have died like another human thus making her more vulnerable than some of the big bads we have met.

I also agree that seeing more of Dark Willow would have allowed us to have more time to examine her powers, but I guess we are just going to have to work with what we have got! And the idea of Dark Willow vs Glory has always intrigued me. It's just a shame we never got to see it on screen!

[vampmogs]

Thank you Vampmogs for explaining what I would have said in a much clearer way than I likely would have!

No problem :D

Actually that's quite an interesting point that you have raised! And one that I find myself agreeing with despite the fact that I never overly considered it before. But then at the same time we must remember that while Willow was powerful magically she was still essentially human. We have been given no edivence that had Willow have been shot or stabbed that she wouldn't have died like another human thus making her more vulnerable than some of the big bads we have met.

Well actually in Villians Warren stabs Willow in the back with an axe which would have been a fatal blow to any human, yet Willow rises up from the ground and plucks it out of her back. She wasn't even wounded by the axe let alone killed.

I wouldn't say that Willow is as strong as someone like Glory in the long run. Remember that Willow relies heavily on having other people as her source for using magic. She runs out of juice fairly quickly and has to get a pick me up from Rack and then only has enough power to end the world when she sucks the covens power out of Giles. If Anya had continued to use the protection spell against her and had not been found, eventually Willow's power would have ran out.

In the short term she is incredibly powerful but her major flaw is that she can't sustain her powers, something both shown and said by Giles. Not to mention that it is pretty evident Buffy was at least holding back to some extent and we don't even know if she could win a hand to hand confrontation.

Come season eight though and I'd say she was one of the most powerful things out there. However, power doesn't mean you can't be killed, Warren and Amy chain her to a table using her own power to bind her there and then being to torture her. Willow is able to go into her mind so she doesn't feel the pain but it is stated even she can't return from a human death; luckily that did not happen.

Originally Posted by KingofCretinsDon't let Buffy off the hook. She cast her lot when she said she'd show Willow what a Slayer was. She can't cry off from those stakes, whether she decided to try to talk Willow down in mid-fight or not. Willow gave Buffy the every square inch treatment that she said that Buffy needed.

Buffy also states in Innocence that she has to kill Angelus and yet when the moment arises can't go through with it. What Buffy says and does can sometimes be two different things ;)

We know from previous encounters that when Buffy tries to show what a slayer really is, she most certainly does not try and reason with her enemy in the middle of the counter when she has an avenue for attack.

[Vampire in Rug]

Here's how I'd rank the big bads in terms of purely physical strength:

1) Glory
2) Adam
3) Caleb
4) The Master
5) Dark Willow (strength enhancing spell)
6) Angelus
7) Mayor Richard Wilkins (human form)

[Ahm Shere]

Glory was the strongest IMO. She was a God for God sake! :lol: With the exception of her mortal weakness Ben, she could knock down any of the other Big Bads easily. Except the First because...Not Corporeal.

The First is way down in my list. Probably bottom. It can't kill anyone with its bare hands, which technically makes it the weakest.

Glory - Kick @$$, if it wasn't for the hammer...or Ben, a fight between Buffy and Glory...Glory would eventually win.

Angelus - Good big bad, but Buffy could kill him in a Angelus/Buffy fight, and not Angelus turned Angel/Buffy fight.

Adam - Strong. I hated Adam as a big bad, but Buffy only defeated him with great primeval power. Regular Slayer V. Adam? Adam would win.

The Master - I'm not sure about this one. Sure, The Master was strong, but if it comes down to yet another The Master V Buffy fight...I think Buffy would win again.

The Mayor - One of the worst big bads there was. And what pisses me off was Faith telling Buffy to play on the Mayors Human weaknesses. Well that shouldn't have worked, since The Mayor would have been pure Demon like said in one of the episodes before, and would have no human weakness.

Dark Willow - Don't get me started on this. I didn't like the whole Dark Magic Willow. I'm pretty sure that Willow could easily kill Buffy using Magic. There was no way Buffy would be able to kill Willow IMO, Willow could easily Flay Buffy alive with a flick of her wrist. The whole Xander 'I love you,' and Giles borrowed power was her weakness which I still think was stupid. Willow should never have been a big bad.

The First - Technically the weakest since it can't kill with its bare hands and can only taunt from the side lines. However, if The First was corporeal, no doubt The First would be the strongest Big Bad.

But Glory wins in my books. Yay Glory!

[selenspuffy]

IMO, definetely First! It's on his name..the first evil..untouchable, you cant hurt it,you cant kill it,it's everywhere!..
2. Glory, she was a goddess, hardly died..If Ben didnt exist, she would have been alive, b/c Giles killed her in Ben form, you know. She was powerful and was the first villian that Buffy realized that she wont beat.