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View Full Version : Tarot Card Clues to Season Eight- POTENTIAL SPOILERS



vampmogs
05-05-09, 04:24 AM
Hey guys :wave:


Remember last year when it was revealed that Dark horse was bringing out Tarot Cards for Btvs? They didn’t end up getting released but when they were created Allie said how they have clues to what the future holds for season eight. I found someone post a description of them (and the characters who appeared on them) on Darkhorse forums and I thought three in particular were really interesting;

Now BEWARE! These aren't confirmed spoilers but if you take any value in what Allie said then some of these descriptions could potentially spoil. So I'm just warning everybody.

Dawn
You are being carried toward your destination, and there is nothing that you
can do to change or alter it. Simply sit back and accept it. This card
promises ultimate success after effort and triumph over obstacles.

Does that not sound like an exact commentary on where her character has been this season? Sit back and accept it and you’ll have ultimate success after triumph over her obstacles? Isn’t that what Dawn has done all season long, using her transformations to help people? In fact, the more I think about it the more I think the transformations don’t come on until she’s accepted that side of herself. When she used her giantness to help the slayers in ‘Wolves At The Gate’ the following arc she was inexplicably transformed into a centaur. Does this possible give us a clue that Dawn’s going to come out of season eight and this storyline the better for it? It sounds promising for the girl.

Card 11 -- Justice
Willow
This card refers to partnerships, among other things. It also refers to being
accountable for your past actions, and for any imbalances or misdeeds in your
past. The number on Willow's shirt was off-centered, which could indicate that
it is meant to be interpreted as "reversed" in a Tarot reading. If so, it
indicates the breakup of a partnership or relationship, and emphasizes the
negative nature of past actions that must be accounted for, and imbalances that
must be corrected.

Another strikingly accurate description of where Willow seems to be heading this season. It immediately made me think of Saga Vasuki with the “break-up of a relationship” as it could put an end to Willow/Kennedy. If it’s a break-up of a partnership it could be Buffy/Willow who’ve been kind of at odds this entire season. The most interesting thing to me, and this will surely make people like Nina happy, it talks about being accountable for your past actions and imbalances that must be corrected for. Warren?

But this one for Xander was what really got me thinking….

Card 13 -- Death
Xander
Boy has this one been spoiled <gr>. However . . . in the Tarot, the card of
death usually does not refer to physical death. It refers instead to renewal
or a complete change of life circumstances. It can be a re-birth so dramatic
that the new person bears almost no relationship to the old person. It also
sometimes indicates that this change will be brought about by a major loss.

A “rebirth so dramatic that the new person bears almost no relationship to the old person?” Is it just me or is that screaming TWILIGHT!!! Like crazy? Like everybody else’s his is scarily accurate with “it also sometimes indicates that this change will be brought about by a major loss” which was Renee in ‘Wolves At The Gate’ which Allie also said in a Q/A was to set him up for his next development. After reading that I really don’t think things are looking good for the Xand-Man.

Now I don’t know how literal Allie was being when he said this cards had clues to season eight but these are all amazingly accurate descriptions of the characters this season. What does everybody else think?

Vamps :)

KingofCretins
05-05-09, 04:33 AM
I don't think they'd be so unsubtle as putting the season out on those cards, though. For my part, I've been doing a rewatch of Season 4 while studying, and I watched the entire thing with an eye toward Season 8. I think Joss may have gotten a lot of the inspiration for Season 8 either rewatching or at least thinking about Season 4. And I think he's tailoring some of the things in Season 8 to various aspects of Season 4, namely the predictive aspects of the dreams. Notice how the prophetic dreams have become a much bigger deal lately? In "Fray", in "Time of Your Life", Buffy appears to have at least one in "No Future For You", they're referred to as well. I'm planning on a breakdown of Buffy's dreams throughout the season, including "Restless", in the context of Season 8. Sort of a follow-up to using the "Hush" dream as evidence of Riley being Twilight, which was... almost right.

Zeppo224
05-05-09, 04:40 AM
Hey guys :wave:


Remember last year when it was revealed that Dark horse was bringing out Tarot Cards for Btvs? They didn’t end up getting released but when they were created Allie said how they have clues to what the future holds for season eight. I found someone post a description of them (and the characters who appeared on them) on Darkhorse forums and I thought three in particular were really interesting;

Now BEWARE! These aren't confirmed spoilers but if you take any value in what Allie said then some of these descriptions could potentially spoil. So I'm just warning everybody.

Dawn
You are being carried toward your destination, and there is nothing that you
can do to change or alter it. Simply sit back and accept it. This card
promises ultimate success after effort and triumph over obstacles.

Does that not sound like an exact commentary on where her character has been this season? Sit back and accept it and you’ll have ultimate success after triumph over her obstacles? Isn’t that what Dawn has done all season long, using her transformations to help people? In fact, the more I think about it the more I think the transformations don’t come on until she’s accepted that side of herself. When she used her giantness to help the slayers in ‘Wolves At The Gate’ the following arc she was inexplicably transformed into a centaur. Does this possible give us a clue that Dawn’s going to come out of season eight and this storyline the better for it? It sounds promising for the girl.

Card 11 -- Justice
Willow
This card refers to partnerships, among other things. It also refers to being
accountable for your past actions, and for any imbalances or misdeeds in your
past. The number on Willow's shirt was off-centered, which could indicate that
it is meant to be interpreted as "reversed" in a Tarot reading. If so, it
indicates the breakup of a partnership or relationship, and emphasizes the
negative nature of past actions that must be accounted for, and imbalances that
must be corrected.

Another strikingly accurate description of where Willow seems to be heading this season. It immediately made me think of Saga Vasuki with the “break-up of a relationship” as it could put an end to Willow/Kennedy. If it’s a break-up of a partnership it could be Buffy/Willow who’ve been kind of at odds this entire season. The most interesting thing to me, and this will surely make people like Nina happy, it talks about being accountable for your past actions and imbalances that must be corrected for. Warren?

But this one for Xander was what really got me thinking….

Card 13 -- Death
Xander
Boy has this one been spoiled <gr>. However . . . in the Tarot, the card of
death usually does not refer to physical death. It refers instead to renewal
or a complete change of life circumstances. It can be a re-birth so dramatic
that the new person bears almost no relationship to the old person. It also
sometimes indicates that this change will be brought about by a major loss.

A “rebirth so dramatic that the new person bears almost no relationship to the old person?” Is it just me or is that screaming TWILIGHT!!! Like crazy? Like everybody else’s his is scarily accurate with “it also sometimes indicates that this change will be brought about by a major loss” which was Renee in ‘Wolves At The Gate’ which Allie also said in a Q/A was to set him up for his next development. After reading that I really don’t think things are looking good for the Xand-Man.

Now I don’t know how literal Allie was being when he said this cards had clues to season eight but these are all amazingly accurate descriptions of the characters this season. What does everybody else think?

Vamps :)



Good stuff here. Dunno if it will turn out to be true but you've definately given me some things to think about. Also, a new post!

Tiny bit of spec here, based on your own spec. I've been thinking for awhile now that basically every character on Buffy with the exception of Dawn and Xander has spent some amount of time away from her, and that the time itself was meant to be indeterminate. I use this qualifier because Xander did in fact leave for his roadtip at the end of seasoin 3 and he did spend some time with drac before season 8. But one instance wasn't by his will and the other was a very temporary thing. Regardless of the fact that we the audience knew Spike was coming back in season 7, the characters themselves didn't. They also didn't know when Willow was coming back, and the same goes with Giles when he left. Anyway, I'm getting off the topic.

My point is that every other character has spent some time away from Buffy and it is during that time that they have really started to define themselves as an independant being. Spike didn't become the Spike that Buffy could respect and trust until he spent time away from her. Granted there is the soul as the distinguishing factor but the point is that he was able to grow while seperated from her in a away he couldn't while around her. The same goes with Willow and I would argue Angel and perhaps even Giles.

Now, assuming I'm right it would seem that in order for Xander to be able to define himself fully and take that final leap, he has to be seperated from Buffy. I'm not sure how it would happen. My own theory is something along the lines of a very bad event happening to him, or possibly done by him if he's under twilights control as king theorizes he will be. Then at the end after the final battle is all said and done Xander takes some personal time to go off and reflect on everything.

Granted, there is a heavy amount of wishing from me on this part. As much as I love Xander's status as the one person to never leave Buffy, I would really like to see him on his own for a bit, doing the solo thing.

I also have a theory regarding Willow, and its one where I actually feel free to do alot more speculating because we have been given alot to work with. My personal belief, given what we have seen so far, is that Willow is headed for a tragic end. Her ultimate fate seems to be to die at the hands of a Buffy from the past during the time of Fray. Now again I could have missed something here but I don't recall there being a clear reason stated that Future-Willow wants to kill Buffy. My own personal theory is that at some point in the future Buffy will be responsible for eliminating magic from the world. Since magic is such a big part of Willows life I think this will hit her hard. Somehow though she finds out about it before the fact and does one of two things; Either she places herself into suspended animation so that she can emerge when magic has been restored or she transports herself into the future to a time when magic has come back.

The future her knows that the Buffy from the past will at some point arrive in Future-Willows time and would see this as a perfect time to kill Buffy or otherwise ensure she was unable to return to the past and therefore would not go on to remove magic from the world.

I kinda hope I'm wrong, because I really do like Willow. This is just my theory based on what we've seen so far. It also ties into the statement by Willow to Harth that what happens in his time is the reason his time exists as well as her statement about ripples. For some reason Buffy traveling to the future leads to the creation of that very future, so perhaps Buffy inadvertantly creates it in an attempt to avoid it coming to pass.

Okay did anyone get a headahce from all that? I hate temporal mechanics.

CowboyGuy
05-05-09, 10:08 AM
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/th_Buffy-Tarot-13DeathFinal.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/Buffy-Tarot-13DeathFinal.jpg)

This is the death card, released by Dark Horse a very long time ago. How is this Xander...at all? I don't know how reliable the source of this information is...Willow was also already on the "High Priestess" card, so I think that is also contradicting information. We know for sure of the following (as we have the images):

The Fool - The First Slayer (Sineya), standing over the Seal of Danzalthar (glowing)
The High Priestess - Willow
Temperance - Angel/us
Wheel of Fortune - The Master
Death - Reaper with dead woman
The Tower - Buffy jumping from crumbling tower (red star)
The Sun - Vampire being burned, sun with Buffy's face
The Magician - Buffy
The Devil - Buffy and Spike (vamp face) entwined in a fiery love chain. Seal of Danzalthar in background.

Also, I went into research mode and came up with a list that I feel fits with many themes and speculations I have about Season 8 in relation to the now dead Tarot deck. Here:

- The Star should be Angel, since he is also on the Temperance card. Those two cards traditionally use the same character.

- The Empress should be Buffy as all things are born through her so to speak. And in turn The Emperor should be Angel, or Spike. It's Angel overload so Spike or maybe even Xander would also do for this card.

- The Heirophant is totally Giles as he is the spiritual guide in a way to Buffy (the Empress card), this card usually symbolizes someone who will talk things through as a sounding board, yet leave us to make up our on mind using our free will and judgment.

- Justice should be Anyanka/Anya.

- The Hermit seems like Oz to me. He is a seeker, and often seen as being wiser to listen, and not divulge too much about oneself. The reverse of the card also means secretiveness, which he sort of is as well.

- Strength should be Tara, as she has inner strength and tames her mind from desires she may have, earthly and otherwise. Someone with strong will power.

- The Hanged Man....Riley.

- The Moon card represents fear, and reversed means to face the challenge of fear. Maybe Andrew? Oz doesn't fit at all.

- The World possibly Dawn as the card depicts a woman...and for the most part means that it is time to get out into the world and take the opportunities offered. It also can symbolize a sexual awakening, or newness.

It's worth noting that in a previous interview with Scott Allie, he divulged that The Lovers card was to be Buffy and Angel, and The Chariot was Xander and Judgement was to be Faith. Again, the meanings behind the cards fit the characters well. Seeing as The Lovers symbolizes the Romeo/Juliet-ness of Bangel...the forbidden, and ultimately doomed love.

vampmogs
05-05-09, 10:45 AM
Oh thanks for that Cowboy Guy. Yeah ok they clearly weren't reliable because now that you mention it I remember all the huffiness with the Buffy/Angel Lovers card and Buffy/Spike devil card. I also remember Buffy jumping from the tower as well.

Do you have any images for the rest of the cards? I’d love to see them.

Great analysis by the way. I know some people thought they were a stupid idea but I really doubt I’d have got a set for myself, but it would have been great to see little hints for season eight and the drawings were very well done.

CowboyGuy
05-05-09, 10:55 AM
Not a problem! I am like you, I would love to get my hands on a set, just for collectible value. It was a great idea, and it's a shame that they'll never see the light of day.

Also I don't get the fuss about Bangel/The Lovers and Spuffy/The Devil. Neither card is better than the other, and The Devil card is an accurate one for Spuffy. Just because it's got the word "devil" in it, I think it turned people off. But it's not a negative card at all. It symbolizes sexual energy and complete lust for one another, among other things along those lines. Something Buffy/Angel could never hope to have.

Yes, I do have all the images. Here you go:


http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/th_Buffy-Tarot-00FoolFinal.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/Buffy-Tarot-00FoolFinal.jpg) http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/th_Buffy-Tarot-02HighPriestess.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/Buffy-Tarot-02HighPriestess.jpg) http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/th_Buffy-Tarot-10WheelofFortun.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/Buffy-Tarot-10WheelofFortun.jpg) http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/th_Buffy-Tarot-13DeathFinal.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/Buffy-Tarot-13DeathFinal.jpg) http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/th_Buffy-Tarot-16TowerFinal.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/Buffy-Tarot-16TowerFinal.jpg) http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/th_Buffy-Tarot-19SunFinal.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/Buffy-Tarot-19SunFinal.jpg) http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/th_tarot01_magician.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/tarot01_magician.jpg) http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/th_tarot03_temperance.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/tarot03_temperance.jpg) http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/th_tarot04_devil.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/slayalive/tarot/tarot04_devil.jpg)

They're kinda moot now, but they are fun to look at. As well as speculate on. It's too bad we didn't see the few spoilery cards that were hinted at.

vampmogs
05-05-09, 11:03 AM
Oh thanks so much for doing this. I think the illustrations are great and I'm so happy to see they included the Master! That put a smile on my face :)



Also I don't get the fuss about Bangel/The Lovers and Spuffy/The Devil. Neither card is better than the other, and The Devil card is an accurate one for Spuffy. Just because it's got the word "devil" in it, I think it turned people off. But it's not a negative card at all. It symbolizes sexual energy and complete lust for one another, among other things along those lines. Something Buffy/Angel could never hope to have.

I think people just wanted an excuse to bash Darkhorse and Scott Allie. It's like their hobby or something :rolleyes:

I agree that it's a real shame we never got to see these. It's a pity they didn't at least get all the images finished so we could have at least seen the spoilery ones, as you say. I thought it was a great idea to connect them to season eight. It would have been a lot of fun to see Xander and Faith in 'Tarot form' :roll:

CowboyGuy
05-05-09, 11:11 AM
My guess for the spoilery stuff was that Oz probably would be on a card. Along with maybe Dawn's many transformations, etc. Maybe even a hint to the Twilight agenda/identity.

Out of 30 some odd cards, I am sure Spike would have been on more that would please his fans. A few card descriptions definitely scream Spike to me. With that said I don't think The Devil is a bad card at all.

sueworld
05-05-09, 11:19 AM
I wonder why thee got canceled so late in the day. The rumors were that one of the actors wasn't comfortable being portrayed on a product such as this and thats why it got stopped.

Wonder who that could have been?

vampmogs
05-05-09, 11:34 AM
If that's true then I believe the only person it could have been was Sarah. As far as I'm aware she's the only actor who has rights over the likeness, and Darkhorse has to go through her agents when they're doing season eight. Perhaps she wasn’t comfortable with the semi-explicate images. I doubt it had anything to do with them being “Tarot cards” when she starred in a series for seven years rife with occult themes.

That’s of course if it was even true. A rumour is a rumour until it's proven as fact.

Nina
05-05-09, 12:06 PM
Why is it that only SMG has those rights? David Boreanaz did more episodes and was also the lead of a series. Or Alyson?

vampmogs
05-05-09, 12:13 PM
Why is it that only SMG has those rights? David Boreanaz did more episodes and was also the lead of a series. Or Alyson?

I'm really not sure how it came about Nina. I think it happened early on in the series, even before DB got his own show. Though I wouldn't quote me on that. I'll try and dig up some info.

Troll
05-05-09, 12:30 PM
It's strange that they used the major arcana instead of the minor arcana. From what my basic understanding of the tarot, The major arcana symbolizes the soul's spiritual journey into divine ascension. For example, the man and woman on the lovers and the devil don't really refer to a mortal relationship. They represent the conscious (man) and subconscious (woman) aspects of a person, who throughout the journey will eventually merge into the original hermaphroditic perfected human spirit.

The minor arcana (wands, swords, pentacles and cups) is more suited for prediction as it represents more rhythmic progressions of everyday human existence, but I digress.

For predictions into season 8, I have a couple.

First of all the tower. It represents the inevitable destruction of all mortal creations -whether they are religions, nations or ideology. For me, Buffy creating her own slayer organization is her way of introducing an ephemeral mortal abstraction into something that is more than that - the slayer line. So the tower will represent the inevitable failure of her efforts.

My second guess is the fool card and it is accurate to portray Senaya there as she is essentially the potential in every slayer before they are activated. The fool is at the beginning - 0 - but it is also the end. Once the fool's potential becomes manifest it will return back to potentiality to renew the cycle. So to interpret this, Senaya - the potentiality, when the comic wraps up, becomes potentiality once again, until the activation of Melaka Fray centuries later.


For more information on the meaning of the tarot, Here's a quicklist of what some mean.

The Fool represents potentiality and is under the value of zero. In one of the earliest forms of tarot, it is placed in the middle to represent the limitless potentiality and directions that it can take. I think we can use this for Andrew or some underdeveloped character, but it also works for Senaya.

The magician represents the number one and represents alchemical transformation from potentiality to action.

The devil represents the fragmented conscious-subconscious personality stuck in a materialistic "hell." I can interpret this similarly to the tower but at more personal level.

The lovers represent the fragmented conscious-subconscious personality beginning their spiritual ascension. Note: that the original tarot has the male looking at the female while she looks up at the sky. This symbolizes the synthesis of the conscious mind into the subconscious. Enlightenment? Self revelation on Buffy's part?

Heirophant and Hermit represent keepers of hidden knowledge. The truth is inside of them but manifest if one knew where to look. This does not represent an actual person but secrets and revelation about well known things. Perhaps this represents Twilight - he knows a secret that may not necessarily be evil.

The Sun represents true knowledge - Gnosis or Nirvana. In the context of the buffyverse, this could be the slayer spell or the reversal of it as it unleashes potential.


That's all of it at the moment. I'll try to finish this later if I can.

CowboyGuy
05-05-09, 01:36 PM
I wonder why thee got canceled so late in the day. The rumors were that one of the actors wasn't comfortable being portrayed on a product such as this and thats why it got stopped.

Wonder who that could have been?


One guess. Same reason why we could never get any version of Buffy from The Wish in action figure form from Diamond Select Toys. Even the bust they sculplted/painted had to be changed at the last minute to the Buffy vs. Dracula bust. It was originally from The Wish! There are pics floating around...

Rowan Hawthorn
05-05-09, 02:51 PM
Why is it that only SMG has those rights? David Boreanaz did more episodes and was also the lead of a series. Or Alyson?

It's a contract thing, simple as that. Nothing to do with how many episodes or whatever. If the actor's agent didn't think to bargain for approval rights and didn't secure them in their contract, then they don't have any say over it.

Rowan Hawthorn
05-05-09, 02:58 PM
If that's true then I believe the only person it could have been was Sarah. As far as I'm aware she's the only actor who has rights over the likeness, and Darkhorse has to go through her agents when they're doing season eight. Perhaps she wasn’t comfortable with the semi-explicate images. I doubt it had anything to do with them being “Tarot cards” when she starred in a series for seven years rife with occult themes.

That’s of course if it was even true. A rumour is a rumour until it's proven as fact.

Yeah, and, to be honest, I have my doubts about it. Although, it's possible that someone's religious beliefs could have played a part in it. The show is obviously just a fictional piece, but a deck of "real" Tarot cards? Ooooo! Some people seriously believe that the cards themselves "draw" Eeeeeevil entities, blah blah blah. Of course, some people also still believe the earth is flat and loads of other codswallop...