Five By Five - The Faith Club [Archive]

Cori

09-07-07, 04:31 PM

I love Faith! Apart from Spike (who always comes first for me! ;) ), she is my favourite character on BTVS, although I have to say that I like her even more on Ats, mostly because I think that Angel understands Faith much better than Buffy ever could and also because Faith's whole storyline (bad girl on the path of redemption) fits much better on Ats.

To get the Faith discussion going, allow me to quote from the book Sex and the Slayer from Lorna Jowett. There is a chapter called Bad Girls and naturally Faith features prominently in that chapter. The author sees Faith in much the same way I do so here goes:

The first indication that Faith is a bad girl is her unbridled sexuality ...

The Watcher's Guide Volume 2 describes Faith as "outrageous and visceral enough to make Buffy seem conservative by comparison".

...

Unlike Buffy and the other good girls, Faith does not restrict her sexual activity to long-term relationships. Instead she adopts a much more "masculine" independence, using sexual partners to satisfy her needs and then rejecting them and any emotional ties, as when she seduces and dismisses Xander in "Consequences".

...

Faith brings a similar appetite to the violent activity of Slaying, and she connects sex and Slaying ...
...

In contrast with Buffy, Faith is "bad" not because she participates in sex and violence but because she enjoys them.

...

It is the combination of Faith's exceptional power as a Slayer (force) and her desire to control her own destiny (be anything she wants) that makes Faith so menacing.

...

Her work for the Mayor undercuts her independence by presenting her as the perfect subordianate and compliant daughter to the Mayor's father figure.

So on the one hand, IMO Faith is a better feminist role model than Buffy because she is not afraid to want (be it sex, power or whatever). She enjoys sex and she is not ashamed of that. Women who want and who are so clear and uncompromising in the fact that they want (especially when it comes to sex) have always seemed menacing to some men.

On the other hand, Faith is a worse feminist role model than Buffy because as the author says she lets herself be controlled and ruled in by the Mayor, her father so to speak. She even calls him "sir" and he is clearly her boss. Faith thereby subjects herself to patriarchal society, something Buffy has never done (maybe a little bit when she was dating Angel ;) ). Buffy was always (more or less) the boss in her life and I admire that about her.

So what do you all think about what the author of the Sex and the Slayer book writes about Faith? I'm curious. :)

vampmogs

09-07-07, 04:47 PM

Well I don't think Faith could ever be deemed a better feminist role model than Buffy based on the major fact that she turned evil and attempted to or did kill innocent people. ;) That isn't something I see as role model quality, although I think Faith could indeed one day be a role model.

Paradise

09-07-07, 10:31 PM

I'm here, I love Faith. Especially with Angel, she's amazing. Great friendship there. Whether or not she's a better feminist than Buffy, I don't think that's a fair comparison. She's very different than Buffy. I don't know that she enjoys sex more than Buffy, she just has more of it because it's a way of surviving to her.

Buffy has it as more of a way of love and connecting---usually. Faith, it's a form of power. So I don't know that feminism has anything to do with sex in this case. Both women are very strong and smart though Faith lacks education. They're both feminists, and that's great.

I adore Faith, she is funny and gorgeous and strong. Rock on girl!

ThePoet's<3

10-07-07, 05:48 AM

Thanks Thricewise for getting this Club started!! I want to be a member!

I have to echo Cori - aside from Spike - Faith is probably my second favorite character. And yes - I enjoyed her more on Angel because she and Angel do have the "redemption" factor going on.

I like dark characters! They bring so much more to table!

And although I recognize some of the flaws in her approach to relationships - she will always be alone unless she lets someone in - I do admire her independent sexuality.

This phrase caught my thoughts more than the others:

It is the combination of Faith's exceptional power as a Slayer (force) and her desire to control her own destiny (be anything she wants) that makes Faith so menacing.

Bad Girls was a perfect example of that. No one had explored that side of the coin before with Buffy - the POWER of being the Slayer!

And redemption is a draw for me with this character. When she returned in S7 she was playing on the team, but yet was still able to keep her independence from the group. And I'm not sure that she wouldn't have been a good leader - I think Faith prefers to work alone. Not everyone is cut out for a "band of Scoobies".

It will be very interesting to see what the comic Buffy S8 will do with the Faith arc!! I can't wait!!

Cordelia_Chase

10-07-07, 09:52 PM

hey count me in....

Faith rocks...I just love her. She was always my fave slayer. Buffy ended u getting too up tight and loved her self, she got a ego...where Faith...she just ketp it real, no matter what was going on. Good gril, or Evil b***h faith rocked at it all.

ThePoet's<3

11-07-07, 07:10 AM

For you Faith Fans - my favorite Faith Vid...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KM_YDGcwzl8

Gotta love the girl!!

And if you are following Buffy S8 Comics here's the Chen Cover from Issue #7 - the second issue in the Faith Arc-

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/preview2.php?image=solicits/darkhorse/200710/BuffySeason8Fc7.jpg

I just LOVE that cover!! Doesn't Faith look like such a "lady"! Wouldn't the Mayor be proud?!? :D

Paradise

16-07-07, 03:19 AM

Wow, nice Faith video. I loved it. Why is Faith dressed like that in the comics? Doesn't look much like her. Could've done better to me. I love Faith.

Dark Ages

23-07-07, 06:34 PM

I love!!!!!!!!!! Faith, She is such a great character. I love how she is no holds bars and she says what's on her mind. I love the way she fights, its more street fighting then trained fighting. She is also very pretty. So I would like to join this club.

Paradise

24-07-07, 08:06 AM

I love the way Faith fights too. Buffy fights like a trained woman with a mission. Faith fights like a warrior with a rage inside her, like a wild woman who doesn't care what you think. It's incredible.

vampmogs

24-07-07, 03:35 PM

Wow, nice Faith video. I loved it. Why is Faith dressed like that in the comics? Doesn't look much like her. Could've done better to me. I love Faith.

Faith is dressed like that because she is going on a mission with Giles to take down a new bad slayer, who is a British heiress and threatens to end the world. In order to do this Faith needs to infiltrate her society, which means Giles gives her the whole make over. If Faith does this then she can retire from being a slayer, as it is been stated she has been on the Cleveland Hellmouth and the gritty aspects of her new role (infiltrating and assassinating) is starting to grate on her. So basically Faith is going to try and pose as a high class woman, which should be very entertaining to see as it is a world Faith just doesn’t belong to. I think she’s going to have one of the best arcs in season eight. :)

I love the way Faith fights too. Buffy fights like a trained woman with a mission. Faith fights like a warrior with a rage inside her, like a wild woman who doesn't care what you think. It's incredible.

It is great to watch but admitedly probably her downfall. Faith looses in a fight, we see it in Revelations and This Years Girl when she resorts to chucking furniture when Buffy starts to get the upperhand. She is an extremely frustrated person, a loose canon and was never that interested in training. But it is great to watch, even if it isn't the smartest thing to do.

I love the Buffy/Faith relationship in season seven more than anything.

-I love how whilst Buffy is staying down with Spike in Chosen Faith is the last person to remain waiting for Buffy.

-I love how she finally understands the loneliness Buffy goes through in End of Days.

-How Buffy acknowledges both herself and Faith as the ones with the power in Chosen.

-How Faith follows Buffy outside in Empty Places to make sure she understands this isn't what she wanted.

- And how Buffy stands up for Faith saying it isn't her fault and that she could have made the same mistake in Empty Places to Amanda and Kennedy.

ThePoet's<3

24-07-07, 10:42 PM

Wow, nice Faith video. I loved it. Why is Faith dressed like that in the comics? Doesn't look much like her. Could've done better to me. I love Faith.

I'll spoil it because the comic isn't out yet...

Supposedly, she has been trained as "a lady" to infiltrate the world of a rogue slayer - who sounds like she is very aristocratic. Can you imagine - our Faith in "charm school"?!? Should be really good!!

I love!!!!!!!!!! Faith, She is such a great character. I love how she is no holds bars and she says what's on her mind. I love the way she fights, its more street fighting then trained fighting. She is also very pretty. So I would like to join this club.

I like the street-fighting aspects of Faith as well!! My favorite battles are between she and Angelus! She fights with a wild passion! SO close to the surface of danger! She LOVES the fight! It excites her!

Phoenix

25-07-07, 07:35 AM

Omgosh i heaps want to join! Faith is by far my favourite character, everything about her is just amazing. And that youtube video posted, probably one of the best ive seen :D

ThePoet's<3

25-07-07, 08:06 AM

Phoenix!

Do you follow the Buffy Season 8 in comics??

A Faith arc is coming up in the #6-8 issues!!! Should be a great story arc for her!! I can't wait!! She is taking on a whole new persona to fight her battle in this arc!

Phoenix

25-07-07, 09:54 AM

Yeah i do follow them! And i cant wait for Faith's arc, it seems to be really good. Im so excited just to see her on the cover, let alone the whole comic :D

Paradise

27-07-07, 02:03 AM

I'm so glad they're bringing Faith back. Did Faith ever have a last name? I'm glad she's on a cover, she should be.

Hey, did anyone else think she had chemistry of any kind with Angel??

vampmogs

27-07-07, 04:17 AM

I'm so glad they're bringing Faith back. Did Faith ever have a last name? I'm glad she's on a cover, she should be.

Hey, did anyone else think she had chemistry of any kind with Angel??

Apparently Joss has given her the last name Lehane, wether or not this is official is open for debate. I guess we'll wait and see if it appears during her arc and if it does then it will be part of canon.

I'm not sure about her chemistry with Angel. Angel was attracted to Cordy and Buffy for traits which IMO aren't present in Faith. As he states in Earshot he has done the bad girl thing and it isn't what he is looking for any more. Whilst Faith may not be a bad girl anymore she still carries that persona and is very different from Buffy, Cordy and Nina. I think it would be nothing more than physical attraction but Angel usually needs more than that.

Paradise

27-07-07, 06:41 AM

Hey all,

In honor of our Faith I made a music video for her, hope you all enjoy.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LlYw3G31I9I

Phoenix

27-07-07, 12:14 PM

Ive never thought Angel and Faith had anything going on between them, apart from friendship and all that really. Although ive always hoped Faith and Spike would have something in the romantic side ;) I remember reading somewhere about the Faith series that never happened, Joss was actually going to have a Faith/Spike relationship thing happen. Dammit! Would be so good :)

Paradise

27-07-07, 10:53 PM

Yeah, Joss seemed to appreciate both the Angel/Faith relationship and the Spike/Faith relatioship. The man USUALLY has taste. I love Faith in general. She has chemistry with everyone.

ThePoet's<3

01-08-07, 05:00 AM

Hey all,

In honor of our Faith I made a music video for her, hope you all enjoy.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LlYw3G31I9I

WONDERFUL Video Paradise!!! I LOVED it!!! I loved all the clips of Faith you used - the dance scene from Angel - my FAVORITE!

Yeah, Joss seemed to appreciate both the Angel/Faith relationship and the Spike/Faith relatioship. The man USUALLY has taste. I love Faith in general. She has chemistry with everyone.

Well, I think Spike could have chemistry with just about anyone!! But I always did think a Spaith relationship would have been HOTT!

Here's a favorite Ficlet- I didn't write - it's Spaith-oriented...

http://theohara.livejournal.com/161053.html

I'll leave you with - "GOO" :D

enigma

08-08-07, 01:50 AM

I have loved the Faith character since Faith, Hope and Tick. Eliza Dushku played her on so many levels. First the cool, new slayer. Then the alienated slayer, her relationship with Mayor. Her time on Angel was well spent, love the episodes, Five by Five and Sanctuary and later Orpheus...so cool!! Then back to Buffy with Dirty Girls. She simply rocks and please add me to club!!!!:2party:

Paradise

23-08-07, 07:10 AM

Faith does rock in every possible way. She is definitely my favorite female from the show, and my second favorite character of all time, almost my favorite. I love her SO much. She is amazing. Every time she comes on you know something interesting is going to happen. She can do anything.

But to me Five by Five and Sanctuary were her best episodes. They were so all about her characterization and they just showed her through and through. It was really beautiful.

spuffylove147

11-10-07, 04:11 AM

ThePoet's<3

11-10-07, 07:03 AM

vampmogs

11-10-07, 10:45 AM

So - as Buffy Season 8 is currently featuring a Faith story arc we are learning some new "CANON" information about our Dark Slayer!!!

Anyone reading the comics?? And what do you think about Faith as she appears in this story??

- Mother was an alcoholic
- She may have been physically abused
- She has turned away from Robin Wood

Do you think she will align herself with Lady G? Is she really going to turn her back on being a Slayer - and retire??? What do you think about the Faith/Giles interaction??

I don't believe Faith will retire after this, she had that choice along with Buffy at the end of Chosen and both slayers decided to keep working. Understandably Faith is getting a bit sick of it but I doubt she'll stop. Personally I'll be a little disapointed in Faith if she did stop, unlike Buffy I don't believe she has done her bit yet. If she wants to follow Angel's way of thinking and if he really is her inspiration she should never give up fighting or trying to redeem herself.

I don't believe she'll align herself with Lady G but think because she is bonding with her she'll find it even harder than she already did to go through with the act. I think Faith is going to try and redeem Gigi and from what we've seen of Issue #8 cover this is going to lead to some conflict with Buffy. Either Faith will pretend to want Buffy dead like Gigi, or Buffy will decide Gigi needs to be killed and Faith will try and protect her.

Oh and I love the Giles/Faith interaction, I always wanted more ever since their little talk in 'Touched' when Giles tells Faith she is doing fine.

Yosso

11-10-07, 06:45 PM

I love Faith! Apart from Spike (who always comes first for me! ;) ), she is my favourite character on BTVS, although I have to say that I like her even more on Ats, mostly because I think that Angel understands Faith much better than Buffy ever could and also because Faith's whole storyline (bad girl on the path of redemption) fits much better on Ats.

To get the Faith discussion going, allow me to quote from the book Sex and the Slayer from Lorna Jowett. There is a chapter called Bad Girls and naturally Faith features prominently in that chapter. The author sees Faith in much the same way I do so here goes:

So on the one hand, IMO Faith is a better feminist role model than Buffy because she is not afraid to want (be it sex, power or whatever). She enjoys sex and she is not ashamed of that. Women who want and who are so clear and uncompromising in the fact that they want (especially when it comes to sex) have always seemed menacing to some men.

On the other hand, Faith is a worse feminist role model than Buffy because as the author says she lets herself be controlled and ruled in by the Mayor, her father so to speak. She even calls him "sir" and he is clearly her boss. Faith thereby subjects herself to patriarchal society, something Buffy has never done (maybe a little bit when she was dating Angel ;) ). Buffy was always (more or less) the boss in her life and I admire that about her.

So what do you all think about what the author of the Sex and the Slayer book writes about Faith? I'm curious. :)

I wouldn't say that Faith is a better role model for women than Buffy is, the fact she isn't "ashamed" about her sexuality, doesn't make her a better role model in my eyes, she's just more brash and up front about it, whereas Buffy is more conservative and isn't as open about her sex life as Faith is. She views sex very differently from Faith, (Willow also shares a very similar view to her) that sex is something not to be thrown away and taken for granted, it's something that's special and should only happen at the right moments, when it's perfect. With Faith it's completely different, she does it when she wants to. End of story. I don't see this aspect of Faith's character as more feminist than Buffy, and not exactly a good quality in her.

As for the Mayor point, I suppose if you're taking an extreme feminist view you could say that by obeying the Mayor her feminist qualities were being undermined, but I don't think so. She chose to follow him, she chose to do what he wanted her to do, she wasn't forced into it she easily has the power to walk away, but she didn't, so I don't see how this makes her less of a feminist role model either.

Phoenix

12-10-07, 07:19 AM

So - as Buffy Season 8 is currently featuring a Faith story arc we are learning some new "CANON" information about our Dark Slayer!!!

Anyone reading the comics?? And what do you think about Faith as she appears in this story??

- Mother was an alcoholic
- She may have been physically abused
- She has turned away from Robin Wood

Do you think she will align herself with Lady G? Is she really going to turn her back on being a Slayer - and retire??? What do you think about the Faith/Giles interaction??

Just replying on finding out about Faith's mother being an alcoholic, if you've already read Go Ask Malice it already says that in there. However I'm not sure if that book is actually canon, I've searched around on the net to see whether it is or not, but i couldnt find anything official being said by Joss Whedon about it. Mostly I just found things being said like it's official Buffy merchandise and so on. Could anyone help me out about this? It's a great book, and I hope it's canon because it would make Faith's past more clear, but if its not then I dont want to believing that's what Faith actually went through, if that makes sense :)

vampmogs

12-10-07, 07:33 AM

Just replying on finding out about Faith's mother being an alcoholic, if you've already read Go Ask Malice it already says that in there. However I'm not sure if that book is actually canon, I've searched around on the net to see whether it is or not, but i couldnt find anything official being said by Joss Whedon about it. Mostly I just found things being said like it's official Buffy merchandise and so on. Could anyone help me out about this? It's a great book, and I hope it's canon because it would make Faith's past more clear, but if its not then I dont want to believing that's what Faith actually went through, if that makes sense :)

It isn't canon :) Canon is only when Joss has written it himself or is overlooking the project very closely. 'Go Ask Malice' is a author's own personal insight and story into Faith but it isn't any more canon than a fanfiction written on this site, the only difference is that it is official Buffy merchandise.

Phoenix

12-10-07, 04:11 PM

Ahh ok I get it now, thanks :)

vampmogs

13-10-07, 05:49 AM

I wouldn't say that Faith is a better role model for women than Buffy is, the fact she isn't "ashamed" about her sexuality, doesn't make her a better role model in my eyes, she's just more brash and up front about it, whereas Buffy is more conservative and isn't as open about her sex life as Faith is. She views sex very differently from Faith, (Willow also shares a very similar view to her) that sex is something not to be thrown away and taken for granted, it's something that's special and should only happen at the right moments, when it's perfect. With Faith it's completely different, she does it when she wants to. End of story. I don't see this aspect of Faith's character as more feminist than Buffy, and not exactly a good quality in her.

I agree, Buffy was never ashamed of having sex, she clearly enjoyed it at times she was just ashamed about who she was having sex with. I think there is a pretty big difference there. Faith treat some of the people she had sex with like crap and if that is what it takes to be a strong woman, then I've got to say I really ain't supportive of feminism. In 8.07 Faith asks herself "Why do I have to act like a dick to every guy that is nice to me?" and I think it is something she should think about and deal with. A lot of people reached out to her like Xander and Wood and now it is revealed she has pretty much treat both of them the same. I don't really think that aspect of her character makes her a good role model for women at all.

And I'm not saying if you are going to have sex with someone you have to be in love with them, but you still can treat them with repsect if they deserve it, and if they don't deserve it, I think the person has to ask themselves if they are worth having sex with in the first place.

As for the Mayor point, I suppose if you're taking an extreme feminist view you could say that by obeying the Mayor her feminist qualities were being undermined, but I don't think so. She chose to follow him, she chose to do what he wanted her to do, she wasn't forced into it she easily has the power to walk away, but she didn't, so I don't see how this makes her less of a feminist role model either.

I agree, and in a way I don't think anyone's feminist qualities are undermined if they learn things from males. I see feminism as being a way to make men and women equal, and a part of that is acknowledging that in different circumstances both a man or a woman can be far more experienced or knowledgeable than the other sex. Faith is comfortable with being a woman, she knows how powerful and strong she is and she is comfortable with that. Going under the wing of a man doesn't threaten her because she is comfortable in who she is. And the Mayor acknowledges her strengths, he takes pride in them. He says that the Ascension is her chance to shine, to "show the world what a powerful young woman you are."

Paradise

25-12-07, 04:36 AM

I just rewatched all the "Faith" episodes in Angel and I have to admit, they are my favorites of the Angel series. Faith really brought the *fun* to Angel. To me, David and Eliza had a great chemistry in a different way to the show. In fact I didn't even notice Faith until Five by Five when she lost it and cried into Angel's arms. Then I absolutely had to watch Sanctuary and I was so scared that Salvage, Release, and Orpheus wouldn't live up to it. I was SO thrilled that they did. Faith had sparkle, great humor, she was strong, she was loyal to Angel, it was amazing.

So after watching her on Angel I of course went back and did my Faith research on Buffy. She is now my second or possibly tied favorite character. She is incredible.

My favorite Faith lines are...

"Dude, you just rescued a puppy."

"Faith, you all right?" "It was touch and go for those four minutes you left me alone but somehow I got through it."

"I hold my own." "That's ashame."

And everything in the world she said to Connor. That kid deserved it.

I have more but those are it for now.

selenspuffy

25-12-07, 01:25 PM

Sign me up please. I love Faith! While watching season3 for the first time, I was really impressed by her! Also I loved her in Ats:)
By the way, Paradise, your video about Faith is really a great work!

OkinawanSteel

25-01-08, 10:23 PM

Just wanted to pop in and pimp this brilliant Faith fanvid:

http://bradcpu.livejournal.com/25240.html

There's a link to a great Spike one on that page too.

OkinawanSteel

20-02-08, 04:39 PM

We need to get a discussion going in here. How about some questions?

What season do you enjoy/dislike Faith most in?

What is your favourite episode involving Faith?

When did you first grow to enjoy the Faith character?

What is your favourite Faith relationship (romantic or otherwise)?

kana

20-02-08, 10:44 PM

What season do you enjoy/dislike Faith most in?

I enjoy Faith in all the Seasons. Season 3 was a great introduction, Season 4/Season 1 of Angel, is simply wow, both high octane and emotionally wrought. Judgement was a great little scene and Season 7 thematically brought it all together. Season 8 continues the themes of self-reflection and identity, mixed in with broken sorority.

What is your favourite episode involving Faith?

Sanctuary has to be her biggest turning point. Plus lots of Wes and Angel fun (my other faves)

When did you first grow to enjoy the Faith character?

Sanctuary, since then she's been one of my favourite characters.

What is your favourite Faith relationship (romantic or otherwise)?

Angel (non-romantically). Although the parallel isn't perfect, there is a powerful connection between the two of them. Faith is more of the literal representation of what Angel's going through. Her demon is her rage and self-loathing, that rots into the core of her. Both of them wonder if the demon is really them...

"I know how it feels. Forced to be someone you’re not.
Hurts to the bone. You try to bury the pain but you can’t
get the hole deep enough, can you? No matter how much
you dig, it’s still there. Broken shards stabbing every time
you breathe, cutting you up inside. You know, there’s only
one way to make the pain stop… hurt someone else".

Angelus in Release.

However Faith and Angel are strong enough to reconcile themselves with this and fight it. The demon doesn't win.

Paradise

21-02-08, 02:08 AM

What season do you enjoy/dislike Faith most in?

Season 4 of Angel! OMG, she was so passionate and amazing in those three episodes. WOW. Just the moment she stepped into the light to the moment she left with Willow. But truthfully, there is no episode or season where I don't love or understand Faith. There is one MOMENT where she pisses me off which is in Touched when Spike is defending my Buffy and she tells him to knock it off. The ONE moment in my Faith loving history when I'm like Spike you shut her up and go comfort Buffy WHICH he did thank you.

Anyway, she made up for it later. Usually I'm 100% on Faith's side and I adore her. :2party::2party::2party:

What is your favourite episode involving Faith?

Five by Five/Santuary. She's to die for in those. I never really understood the depth and soul of Faith until she asked Angel to kill her. When she danced to Living Dead Girl I went, "How can anyone move like that?" When she cried in his arms I fell in love with both of them and couldn't wait to see what happened next. I was done, I was sold. :)

When did you first grow to enjoy the Faith character?

Same as above. Five By Five, I went on to watch everything she did and I went back and watched everything all over again and disected her character. I still do.

What is your favourite Faith relationship (romantic or otherwise)?

ANGEL ANGEL ANGEL ANGEL! And I discovered on youtube I'm SO not alone. She and David just have a chemistry. And she and Angel have so much more in common than he and Buffy. *smiles*

Cori

22-02-08, 09:14 AM

What season do you enjoy/dislike Faith most in?

Well I love Faith in all seasons, she is my favourite female character on BTVS. However, I do enjoy her most on Ats, I think that her bad girl on the road to redemption storyline fits Ats much better. So I loved her in season 1 of Ats where her whole tough girl routine finally fell apart, she started showing her vulnerable side and with Angel’s help embarked on that thorny road to redemption. I also loved her in season 4 of Ats, first all confident and in charge, then letting Angelus get the better of her until she fought back and came out of it all stronger than before. In fact, “Orpheus” is one of my all-time favourite Ats episodes, I love the development we see both Faith and Angel/Angelus go through in that particular episode.

What is your favourite episode involving Faith?

Hmmm that’s tough, I can’t choose only one. I’ll go with “Five by Five”/”Sanctuary” and “Orpheus”.

Faith breaking down crying in Angel’s arms at the end of “Five by Five”, begging him to kill her is still one of the saddest, most poignant and downright best scenes of Ats for me. This is why I love grey area characters like Faith so much: they are so complex. One moment, they are all violent, swearing revenge, the next moment, they are vulnerable and completely screwed up. What I also love about that moment at the end of “Five by Five” is how Angel completely gets it even before Faith says the “please just kill me” line. He gets it because he has been there, he understands her anguish and pain because they are his own. To witness such a deep connection between two characters is a thing of beauty.

In Sanctuary, I love that we get to see Faith’s slow but constant recovery from her evil ways, how Angel helps her, how he even stands up to Buffy and defends Faith (Buffy is IMO extremely judgmental in this episode and has a very single sided view of the whole situation, okay granted given what Faith has done to Buffy, I can understand where she is coming from but her attitude in this episode still annoyed me) and how in the end Angel’s trust and faith (sorry bad pun) in Faith is rewarded by the fact that she actually did listen to him and she turns herself in.

“Orpheus” is a fantastic episode because it was great to see Faith and Angelus relive some of Angel’s past deeds, the whole flashback/mindwalk thing was so beautifully done. I loved the snarky banter between Faith and Angelus and how after all these years in prison, Faith is still unsure about her path, about redemption in general, how she is tired of fighting the good fight and not giving in to her evil urges but that she then gets reminded by Angel that “their time is never up”, that they have to keep atoning for their sins forever. Once again Angel manages to get through to Faith (even if this all takes place in their minds) and thus Faith wakes up and prevents Connor from killing Angel.

When did you first grow to enjoy the Faith character?

Practically right from the start. I enjoy the idea of a bad slayer, of a bad girl who is not afraid of her sexual desires, who doesn’t like being told what to do (of course that changed when she started working for the Mayor) and who lives her life the way she wants to. I could also relate to her wanting to belong to the Scooby gang but never really fitting in and how that created jealousy of Buffy and everything Buffy had.

What is your favourite Faith relationship (romantic or otherwise)?

The one she had with Angel. Not necessarily in a romantic sense but in a deep friendship sense. As explained above, Angel perfectly understood where Faith was coming from and this of course created a tight bond between these two characters. IMO Faith always understood Angel way better than Buffy ever could because she has known those evil urges herself and has learnt to live and deal with them. Also, Angel never put Faith on a pedestal like he did with Buffy (well it would have been pretty hard to put a murderer on a pedestal ;) ) so Faith and Angel were always on a more equal footing than Buffy and Angel.

buffyholic

22-02-08, 01:50 PM

Can I join the Faith club too? I´m already on the Buffy thread but I´m also a fan of Faith. The charater is amazing and Eliza plays her in a way that´s speechless.

vampmogs

23-02-08, 01:15 AM

[QUOTE=Cori;161703]What season do you enjoy/dislike Faith most in?

I'm a fan of Faith always, I'm a fan of her even when I dislike her. It's odd. I love her in season 3, I think she brought so much to the season and I loved her interactions with Buffy and her storyline, and at the same time I do dislike her quite a lot after her dark turn. I pretty much agree with Willow when she gives Faith the "Boo hoo" speech about her past. She's obviously had a pretty bad childhood but that's no excuse to betray your friends, and is certainly no excuse for her to try and torture Buffy alive. I have very little sympathy here, her actions are her own fault. And yet, I still like her, she was petty and clouded by jealousy, it was tragic how often she mis interpreted things more negatively than they had to be, and in the end she did some very bad things, but I still liked her. She was great to watch. So I'd have to say that I 'disliked' her most in season 3 for obvious reasons, and probably liked her most in s4/s7 of Ats and Btvs. I loved how out of everyone in 'Empty Places' she was most sympathetic to Buffy, she's the one who followed her out, who stood up for Buffy ect.

What is your favourite episode involving Faith?

That's hard for me, I like so many so I'll prob just list a few.

Enemies: Because c'mon, she had it coming. But she was great and terrifying throughout that entire episode, but what she willing to do to Buffy was inexcusable. I loved her expression when she realises she's been fooled, loved her little smile to the Mayor at the end (their relationship was a favourite of mine) and loved her little moment when she kills the demon for the books and stares at the blood on her hands, very McBeth.

Who Are You: Amazing epsiode. Faith's beginning to turn and you can see it. Perhaps my three most favourite moments in that episode;
* When she saves the girl and the girl stops her, thanking her for saving her life. You can see the inner struggle with Faith, she liked the appreciation, liked the feeling and didn't know how to take the gratitude.
* "Because it's wrong." She's finally learned, her actions are wrong, she's as of yet to fully express them herself but that's basically what she's channelling here. She's learnt the difference between right and wrong again, and though not ready to bring it out of herself, wants to do good whilst being 'Buffy.'
* "I'm not a killer, I am the slayer and you don't know the first thing about me!" Denial, very un convincing denial, but denial nevertheless. And she knows it, which makes it so much more interesting.

Five By Five: Complete and utter meltdown, shows how dangerous Faith is, how wild she'd gotten. Another one of those moments when I love her character because the episode was so interesting, and at the same time was wanting Angel to beat the sh#t outta her for doing that to Wes. And plus the breakdown scene at the end, didn't love it quite as much as most people did, but still great.

Judgement: I love her little cameo at the end. She's grown a lot since we see her in 'Sanctuary' and she was the best bit of a really pretty average Ats episode.

Cavalry: Loved confident Faith. Adore how she takes charge, how she's willing to take both the Beast and Angelus on ect.

No Future For You: We see how Faith is after 'Chosen' and she isn't in a good place. Love how we finally get an insight into how she looks back on her relationship with the Mayor and realises he was an evil scumbag and yet she did love him and he loved her. I also really enjoyed the mirror image of Faith in Gigi, Gigi was everything Faith used to be. Manipulated, ****y, ill informed and Faith wanted to get through to her rather than kill her. I also adore how we see how Faith really thinks of herself, "you're a worthless whore" and how she believes others view her "I'm the go to girl for dirty deeds done dirt cheap." I actually agree in a lot of ways that Faith's life shouldn't be easy now that she is out of prison. She did some really bad things and whilst she escaped prison to do some good, she does bare a certain responsbility to shoulder the harder aspects of the work, but I still wanted more for her. I love at the end of she leaves with Giles and realises she can help other slayers who are in trouble.

When did you first grow to enjoy the Faith character?

From the very first episode. Just loved her she brought something new to the show.

What is your favourite Faith relationship (romantic or otherwise)?

Mmm that's really hard for me to decide. But I'm going to have to say Buffy. I know a lot of people say Buffy couldn't understand Faith like Angel could, but Angel will never understood some parts of Faith that Buffy can. For so long they were the only two slayers in the world, no one knows what it's like to be a slayer but those two girls. The superiority complex, the loneliness, that's something Buffy and Faith share that no one else can share with them. They understand eachother on a level Angel doesn't understand Faith, and Faith really represents the thing Buffy could have become.

But I also enjoy;

Faith/Angel: Not romantically because I'd actually find that kind of odd and irksome in a way. He's helping her, protecting her. I know a lot of people said they wanted them to kiss in 'Sanctuary' but I'd see Angel as taking advantage of her, much in the same way as he claims he'd be taking advantage of Tina from "City Of.." I've never seen them as a romantic couple. Angel was never into the bad girl things, he's said he's been there and done that, and then he never seemed even remotely interested in her romantically after she kind of dropped that act a little. They were great friends and Angel helped her a hell of a lot, and I love them together for that.

Faith/Gigi: It was really quite tragic. Both such lonley figures, sharing so much in common. Both were manipulated by father figures, both chose evil over good, both hid behind this bad girl persona. And tragically, it came to such a horrific end. You could see how upset Gigi was when she realised Faith wasn't who she said she was, she trusted this girl and Faith actually came there to kill her. It was tragic, I loved Faith crying after Gigi died.

Faith/The Mayor: So complicated, such a bad influence and yet exactly what Faith always wanted and needed. It was horrible the thing he helped turn her into, and at the same time so compelling and really without malice. The Mayor couldn't understand that his influence on Faith wasn't a good one, because to him it was.

And romantically.. well I didn't hate Faith/Wood but I thought it was a little out of place, and could have gotten behind Faith/Xander. But I think she had great chemistry with Spike in 'Dirty Girls.' I know that they originally put that scene in there to test the waters and obviously they liked what they saw as they did offer Eliza the spin off but she turned it down for 'Tru Calling.'

BlasterBoy

23-02-08, 02:47 AM

May I join?

What season do you enjoy/dislike Faith most in?

Honestly? I enjoy her in every season but she was my favorite in Season 4 of Angel. Her determination to take down Angelus and the Beast, her caring for Angel, and how she kicked Connor's ass! :evil: :lol:

What is your favourite episode involving Faith?

That would be Angel's "Five By Five". It goes from her sexy self ("Living Dead Girl") to great continuity (Wesley's tortured), to kick ass fighting (Angel and Faith), to a great emotional end that has to be one of the best Angel scenes and one of the best Faith scenes.

When did you first grow to enjoy the Faith character?

Since the beginning. I loved her attitude and how she foiled Buffy so well, but then into Ats s1 and Btvs s4, I got to really appreciate Eliza's acting and her character's growth.

What is your favourite Faith relationship (romantic or otherwise)?

Angel/Faith, NON-sexual ;) I loved the way they each cared for each other so much and Angel FINALLY stood up to Buffy for her. They were a great pair.

buffyholic

26-02-08, 04:54 PM

I like Faith in every season, of Buffy and Angel, although I haven´t seen her in season four of Angel. But she´s amazing.
I like her tension with Angel, they would´ve been a great couple.
I like Faith as a character and her chemistry with Buffy is amazing. I just love the two of them beating the crap out of each other. Also, Eliza plays her brilliantly.

Paradise

26-02-08, 08:48 PM

I love that so many people appreciate the relationship between Angel and Faith. It truly was a powerful one, whether you wanted it to be romantic or not. I started a fan fiction between them. PM me if you'd like the link. :)

five-by-five

29-03-08, 01:46 AM

Can I Join Please?

I love Faith, as you can tell by my name, she is an amazing character.

I love the way one day she can be rebelious and the next everyones friend, thats the whole reason why I like her because you never know what is coming next with her.

ThePoet's<3

29-03-08, 05:33 AM

What season do you enjoy/dislike Faith most in?
I have to agree with BB that S4 of Angel was my favorite season of loving Faith. That's my favorite Faith - when she's the Slayer in Charge. I know her head is not as level as Buffy's but it's good to see her in the driver's seat.

I will also include Season 8 of Buffy as being one of my favorite seasons that I liked Faith. Her interaction with Giles is wonderful!! I think I like them more together than Buffy and Giles! I hope we will see more of this pairing.[/B]

What is your favourite episode involving Faith?

And I will copy BB's answer here as well - sorry - great minds...

"Five by Five" is just the greatest start to any episode to me! To see Faith dancing and fighting at the same time to Rob Zombie's "Living Dead Girl" - that is an awesome scene!!

But then to see her sobbing and begging Angel to put her out of her misery my heart just bleeds for her. She is such a little lost girl. It's like the moment she hits the wall at 100-miles an hour and just shatters into a million little pieces. She's the most vulnerable I've ever seen her at that point.

When did you first grow to enjoy the Faith character?

When she arrives in Sunny-D! She's like "Girl Spike" to me. I guess i like her because she so unlike Buffy. Buffy is a little too Mary Jane for me which is why Faith appeals so much to me.[/B]

What is your favourite Faith relationship (romantic or otherwise)?

I've yet to see Faith in a relationship that I appreciate. I guess I liked her flirtation with Spike a bit in S7.

buffyholic

02-04-08, 04:49 PM

Which Faith do you like best: Evil and rebellious Faith or redemptive Faith?

What do you think of Faith in Buffy S7?

Let´s hear some opinions....

ThePoet's<3

03-04-08, 05:31 AM

Which Faith do you like best: Evil and rebellious Faith or redemptive Faith?

What do you think of Faith in Buffy S7?

Let´s hear some opinions....

I LOVELOVELOVE redemptive characters!! I identify with the character who has made mistakes and wants to change their life for better. I identify with the humanity and the struggle of always missing the mark but every once in a while hitting it BULLSEYE in the center. It means so much more for those characters to "do the right thing".

So Faith trying to overcome her obstacles is more appealing.

Now, I was not that crazy about Faith in Buffy S7. She was still a bit too biligerant for me. I guess I thought she should come across a little more humble. There was still a lack of maturity in her character.

I thought Brian K. Vaughn captured a tougher more mature Faith with an appropriate amount of humble.:)

vampmogs

03-04-08, 01:13 PM

I can't decide which Faith I like best, I honestly love all sides to her. What I love about her character is that at times in the series, I love to hate her. I adored her character and at the same time wanted Buffy to give her a good slap around. I loathed how she betrayed them in s3, loathed how she tried to torture Buffy, how she could be so merciless and cruel. I found it appalling, and at the same time truly captivating. I didn't have to like what her character was doing, I didn't have to root for her, but she still interested me greatly. I can love her character and at the same time have no problems saying she was a horrible person at times, she was, and I was rooting for Buffy up on that rooftop. But her character brought so much to the series, she was just amazing, I didn't have to like her to *like her* if that makes any kind of sense. She evoked all kinds of emotions for me, at some points she was hilarious, others I felt great sympathy for her, at other times I was rooting for her and then there was times I was rooting for somebody to “slap her up and down main street.” She was just great all round.

Paradise

04-04-08, 03:29 AM

Which Faith do you like best: Evil and rebellious Faith or redemptive Faith?

What do you think of Faith in Buffy S7?

It's REALLY hard to choose this. When I watch Orpheus/Release/Salvage and S7 Faith I sometimes forget how she was in the beginning. How messed up she was. It's incredible. What a developed person she became, how far she worked to heal herself. So then, after watching a lot of Season 7, I go back and watch Five By Five, it's like a complete turn around. I love both sides of her.

I guess I like the sane side to her SLIGHTLY more because she's the one I wanna have over to my house and get drunk with and talk about how hot Spike and Angel are. But the screwed up one is phenomenal. So, hard hard hard.

buffyholic

04-04-08, 02:17 PM

Paradise

04-04-08, 05:21 PM

I´m looking forward to seeing Faith on Angel S4. I like Faith on S7 of Buffy, it really shows a different side, I guess prison did her good. Her appearance was good, definitively another side of her. I also like how her and Buffy made their peace. But I can´t choose which side of her I like best. S3 wouldn´t be the same without her, seeing her lose control and become evil is a real trip.

Oh you haven't seen her with Angel in S4? OMG. The Faith episodes of the Angel series are my favorite. I mean I love Birthday and You're Welcome, don't get me wrong but all the Faith episodes show such depth and fun with Angel. So I think you'll really enjoy them. I was so afraid I wouldn't. I was so afraid they'd screw up with or the Faith/Angel relationship, but they didn't. It was great. Humor, loyalty, caring, it was the best!

buffyholic

09-04-08, 02:25 PM

Can you imagine if Faith and Angel would hook up? They would make an explosive couple.

vampmogs

09-04-08, 04:15 PM

Can you imagine if Faith and Angel would hook up? They would make an explosive couple.

Mmm I've never really been able to get on board with the idea myself. It's an odd one, some friends I'm able to see hooking up, others I can't. For example I could see Buffy and Xander hooking up in season 8, I feel like it'd be a natural progression to their relationship actually, but others like Angel and Cordelia unfortunately felt utterly contrived to me, it'd seem the same for Angel & Faith in my eyes.

In 'Sanctuary' I think Angel would have been completely taking advantage of Faith in her state, the same way he would have Nina in 'City Of..' which he states himself. And after that, though she's in a far better state of mind, I could never really picture it. They've always had a lot in common, but then Buffy asked that question herself and Angel made it pretty clear he didn't care then, I'm not sure why he'd care now all of a sudden. I think I like them far better as friends really, it's just one of those feelings I can't shake for those particular characters.

Besides I think Faith/Spike sizzled in 'Dirty Girls' with all their flirting and talk of "popping like warm Champaign" which actually was a scene included intentionally by the writers to test their chemistry for a Faith & Spike series being planned at the time. I’d say it was a success, pity Eliza decided to do ‘Tru Calling’ instead.

On the subject of Faith, I recently watched ‘Who Are You’ the other day, and have to say despite my love of the scenes with her and Angel, I still prefer her interaction with Buffy the best. I just adore this episode, so many layers for Faith’s character. In particular her progression from the playful “because it’s wrong” her seductive “because it’s wrong” to her sincere “because it’s wrong” in the church scene. And her self loathing as she screams “your nothing but a disgusting worthless bitch, you’re nothing, you’re disgusting” as she pummels her own face in the church, is one of the finest moments for her character’s journey IMO. I’ve always felt that even though Angel has experience in the area and probably was the best person to help Faith in the long run, evident by ‘Sanctuary’ and pretty much always known by Buffy anyway, she did ask for his help in ‘Consequences,’ I’ve always felt Buffy was the best character for Faith to have some self reflection, their parallels are always incredibly interesting. In particular in this episode, and of course their most recent episode in ‘No Future For You’ when was see how Faith always feels that she’ll be under Buffy’s shadow, that sometimes she “wishes Buffy would just go away” and at the same time, we see the great growth in her character. She didn’t drown Buffy, she didn’t immediately kill Gigi, and it was actually Faith who prevented Buffy from crossing that line, whilst at the same time saving Buffy’s life. All kinds of interesting reflections there.

Honestly, aside from Buffy's interaction with Xander and Willow, I've always felt her interaction with Faith was far more interesting than any of Buffy's romances, wether it be Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Riley or Buffy/Spike. Being two slayers always makes their meetings entirley unique and interesting for both of their characters.

buffyholic

10-04-08, 01:14 PM

You´re totally right, mogs. Can I call you mogs?
When I see Faith and Buffy together, I know I´m in for a ride. The both of them just brings an intensity to the role and they have great screen chemistry. In fact, I absolutely adore their fight scenes. And I also love how Faith manages to bring out a little of bitchy Buffy.
Faith and Spike, it´s a thought. Their interaction in "Dirty Girls" and "Who are You"(a brilliant ep, btw) is just sizzling.

vampmogs

10-04-08, 02:57 PM

You´re totally right, mogs. Can I call you mogs?

:roll: You can call me anything you like, a lot of people call me mogs :hug:

When I see Faith and Buffy together, I know I´m in for a ride. The both of them just brings an intensity to the role and they have great screen chemistry. In fact, I absolutely adore their fight scenes. And I also love how Faith manages to bring out a little of bitchy Buffy.

Their fight scenes are very amazing, easily the best in the series IMO. Mostly because they have so much passion and personal feelings between each other that it makes it so much more thrilling, and both slayers so double the fun. :)

And yes as you said, you know you're in for a treat when the two of them have a scene together. In all honesty I can't think of a single scene which I don't like between these two, they have an amazing chemistry. And Faith does bring out bitchy Buffy, which is very interesting. I think Faith actually brings out the extremes of Buffy, the best and the worst of her. On the one hand she did get under Buffy's skin and make Buffy bitchy at times, on the other when she was trying to help Faith we saw a very selfless and caring Buffy, who despite being a victim of Faith herself, still pressed for her rehabilitation when even Angel at the time didn't really think it was an option.

Faith and Spike, it´s a thought. Their interaction in "Dirty Girls" and "Who are You"(a brilliant ep, btw) is just sizzling.

Admittedly we hadn't seen enough of them together to determine if there was anything more there, but yeah.. they sizzled alright.

buffyholic

11-04-08, 01:36 PM

vampmogs

11-04-08, 02:34 PM

What is your opinion of "Sanctuary"? Do you think Buffy was acting bitchy or she was right to diss Faith? I always have trouble answering that because it´s not a question of right or wrong, it´s more complex than that and it´s a very delicate matter.

It's a very delicate matter, I agree with that. I understand both Buffy and Angel's point so I can agree with both of their actions, to an extent.

I think people have always been a little too harsh on Buffy in that episode. What we love about her character is that she's a human being, and someone's who's been personally victimised by someone, who's sole intention was to hurt them, don't just forgive and forget so easily as portions of the audience expect her too. Buffy's not a robot, she's a human girl who Faith did a lot of horrible things to, Buffy's actions are totally understandable. To quote Angel "You might want to change but that doesn't mean the world is ready for you too."

There's a pretty big list of what Faith has personally done to Buffy, just to name a few;

* Framed her for attempted murder
* Betray her
* Try and steal Angel away from Buffy
* Try and sadistically torture Buffy
* Brutally attacked and kidnapped her mother
* Stole her body
* Slept with Riley

That's a pretty long list, looking at all those things Faith did to Buffy, could anyone honestly say they'd have expected Buffy to be nice to the girl, just because Faith decides she wants to change? And then of course it's totally understandable why Buffy would be sceptical to the idea of Faith changing, she states "she's playing you!" and lets face it, she has good reason to think Faith is playing Angel. Buffy was the only one opting for rehabilitation for Faith in 'Consequences' even after Faith tried to frame her for the murder, and in the end we see she was playing Buffy all along. Then Faith awakens from her coma in which Buffy says "it doesn't have to be this way" and shows genuine concern for her when talking about the scoobies, Faith says "it has to be exactly like this." So it's utterly understandable Buffy's not only angry at Faith, but sceptical she's really wanting to change, because they've been there and done that.

But Buffy's behaviour towards Angel was wrong. He was being, IMO to insensitive to her feelings because he knew Faith had done some bad things to her, he's very angry after coming off the phone with Giles when he hears this, but she still had *no* excuse to strike him. And rubbing Riley in Angel's face wasn't the right thing to do either. Whilst I understand Buffy's feelings and scepticism 100% Angel was in the end right, if she wanted a chance at redeeming herself she should be given that chance.

So ultimately I can't really fault either characters. Buffy IMO had a right to be so angry at Faith, anyone would given what she'd done, and Angel was right as well. So yeah Buffy was acting bitchy, but she had a right to, to Faith, and to Angel to some extent but nowhere near the extent it ended up being.

buffyholic

14-04-08, 05:12 PM

kana

14-04-08, 06:28 PM

I think that Buffy had a right to be mad at Faith. Buffy always tried to help her and Faith always did everything to reject her. For me, Buffy was being bitchy towards Angel. Angel was right to yell at her, she had no right to come to L.A. and start calling the shots. And besides, she hit Angel and then complained. IMO, Buffy has one fault, she doesn´t admit she is wrong, or that happens very rarely. Even when she´s wrong, she sticks to her decision and goes against everyone. Buffy had a right to be mad at Faith, but I feel that Faith also nailed one good point against her. She said that Buffy always has to be in control of everything and always be the one who knows everything.
Sorry, Buff but I agree with Faith there.

Kind of agree. It was mainly her treatment of Angel that got me. It wasn't really about what one should do with Faith, but throwing Angel's murderous past in his face (cheap low shot by Buffy considering everything they went through in Amends.)

Faith not only feels guilty for her actions, she also feels the rage and self loathing where nothing makes sense. Before she accused Buffy of being repressed but while Faith certainly isn't about rationalizing her own actions anymore, both slayer's subsequent experiences should mean they understand each other a little better.

While Buffy doesn't murder people she certainly gets insight into self loathing the violence that comes with it, she also understands the primal nature of being a Slayer and the enjoyment they get out of it, something Faith tapped into ages ago.

Faith now understands responsibility and leadership but the story is far from over.

Buffy is far from free of responsibility and Faith is not free of her past. Their jealousy and envy/resentment of each other runs deep. The loneliness of their respective situation runs deeper.

ThePoet's<3

15-04-08, 04:39 AM

What is your opinion of "Sanctuary"? Do you think Buffy was acting bitchy or she was right to diss Faith? I always have trouble answering that because it´s not a question of right or wrong, it´s more complex than that and it´s a very delicate matter.

It is VERY complex!

Buffy had a lot of reasons to be outraged - look at all that Faith had done before that! I can understand her anger and thought of betrayal. And as stated - Buffy had tried to be kind to Faith on many occasions and what had it gotten her?

I think she went a little overboard partly because of Angel defending Faith -(Although I'm glad he did.) Perhaps she was feeling a little small because Angel was able to look beyond what Faith had done and forgive her. Help her find redemption. Buffy's never been in that spot (but maybe she's about to find out in Season 8!) where she's done something really bad and had to earn her place back in the world. Angel knew first hand and so was able to know where Faith was and how to help her.

It's harder to hear "How You Have Screwed Up Your Life" from people who don't know anything about that. It's easier when you are talking to someone who has been there and has had to come back.

Michael

23-04-08, 02:11 AM

After reading these posts I have just had another look at Five By Five and Sanctuary for the first time in years. Will you hear a few comments?

1) Buffy went to LA because she was worried about Angel.She had heard that Faith was trying to kill him.

2) She found Angel comforting Faith, and was a bit put out by this. She made it plain that her object now was to see that Faith was taken to the police station. IMO this was an entirely proper and moral course of action.

3)Angel intervened and this is when Buffy slapped him, to which he replied with a full punch. Angel was wrong and acting in a criminal fashion, even if his motives were benevolent.

4) When she learned that the Watchers Council had sent a team to get Faith, Buffy said "they're killers!" and she went to the roof to talk to Faith and she risked her life to save Faith from the Watchers men.

5) Faith made her own way to the police station to give herself up.

IMO Buffy acted in a selfless and heroic fashion.Angel was benevolent in a limited sense, but he resented Buffy and was perfunctory about the suffering of Wesley. The situation was taken out of Angel's control and his ego was affronted. His reference to LA as "my city" was ludicrous.

Faith's decision to go to jail when she could have got away was a huge step for her and put her on the road to the rehabilitation which enabled her to join Buffy in saving the world at the end of Season 7.

All the more regrettable,then, that we had to see another Buffy v Faith clash in Season 8 No Future For You. In view of what had happened in Season 7 this seemed to me to be gratuitous and implausible, a contrivance by the writers because they knew that Buffy v Faith would bring in customers, hence the nasty and almost pornographic cover picture by Jo Chen.

I hope that Faith will team up with Buffy in the future.Before that can happen, however, I guess the Giles situation will have to be resolved somehow.

vampmogs

23-04-08, 02:56 AM

Angel intervened and this is when Buffy slapped him, to which he replied with a full punch. Angel was wrong and acting in a criminal fashion, even if his motives were benevolent.

Buffy didn't "slap" Angel, she hit him the same way he hit her back. It was backhand, she had her fist clenched and her hand turned away from him when she struck him. And as Angel points out, she's stronger than him. There's no way to try and lessen what she did, she struck him because he disagreed with her and that's *not* ok. Angel had every right to act in self defence, especially when she reared back to hit him a *second time.*

They were both wrong and acting in a criminal fashion, Buffy technically should have tried to turn Faith into the police when she accidentally killed Finch or when she killed Worth, but we both know it's always far more complicated than that.

The situation was taken out of Angel's control and his ego was affronted. His reference to LA as "my city" was ludicrous.

Buffy called Sunnydale "my town" in 'I Will Remember You' to Angel.

hence the nasty and almost pornographic cover picture by Jo Chen.

What's pornographic about Faith trying to drown Buffy under water? :s

LaJaula

23-04-08, 04:43 AM

IMO this was an entirely proper and moral course of action.

Why, though? Faith broke away from the police before, in Bad Girls. In Consequences, she escaped from the Watcher's Council, who are arguably the people best equipped to hold a slayer. I don't think that sending Faith to the police would've solved anything, since she could've easily escaped. Honestly, by this point, I really only see two options for Faith-- she has to be willing to change, or she has to be killed. She's evil and dangerous. Fortunately for everyone, Faith made a very difficult choice and went to jail for three years.

Also, I'll just mention Buffy entered Angel's house without his permission, punched him, tried to tell him how to behave, and attempted to hurt someone who was a welcome guest in his home. Neither Buffy nor Angel is 100% blameless in this, but you can't point out one person's faults and not the others'.

kana

23-04-08, 12:04 PM

To be honest Mogs and Lajula have nailed it really. I've attempted to address this issue before.

The main themes summarized are the problem of what to do with Faith and the issues between Buffy and Angel and Faith.

The first issue (as I've mentioned before) is the problem with formal authority or lack of (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showpost.php?p=192550&postcount=16)

IMO Buffy acted in a selfless and heroic fashion.Angel was benevolent in a limited sense, but he resented Buffy and was perfunctory about the suffering of Wesley. The situation was taken out of Angel's control and his ego was affronted. His reference to LA as "my city" was ludicrous.

As for Buffy and Angel? The argument that Angel's ego was 'ouchied' could easily apply to Buffy. Both of them wanted to do things their way so why were Angel's actions the result of personal resentment and Buffy's all selfless and noble.

1) Buffy went to LA because she was worried about Angel.She had heard that Faith was trying to kill him.

While Buffy claims her intention is to protect Angel, Angel reminds her he fights without her protection on a daily basis and her actual intent was revenge which Buffy doesn't deny but she also claims she has a right to it.

Michael

23-04-08, 03:12 PM

I have just had another look at the relevant scenes in Sanctuary to make sure of the facts.

1) What Buffy delivered to Angel was,IMO, a hard slap designed to sting, not to inflict serious injury. She hit him not because he "disagreed" with her , but because he physically intervened to prevent Buffy from carrying out her lawful purpose of getting Faith to the police station.

2) Faith was "a welcome guest in his house" was she? Nobody has a right to harbor a suspect wanted for murder and other serious violent offenses.

3) What Buffy should or should not have done on earlier occasions in Sunnydale is beside the point. If the law could only be upheld by people who never broke it, then it would never be upheld at all

4)The irony of this episode is that Buffy went to LA to help protect Angel from Faith, and ended up protecting Faith from the Watchers. That is what was "selfless and heroic" about her action.

5)The real moral hero of this episode, as I should have mentioned before, was Wesley. He was viciously tortured by Faith, yet turned against the Watchers giving a warning to Angel and Buffy that enabled them to save Faith.

6) Angel is really pissed off at the end of this episode although the best possible outcome had been achieved. Faith had given herself up of her own free will, and the murder plot against her had been foiled.

7) Buffy had said that she came to LA because she was worried about Angel. Angel calls her a liar, saying "you came for vengeance". Buffy says that she has a right to vengeance, as a response to Angel's malicious slur. But that does not mean that she intended to get revenge. You do not always exercise your rights, when other matters seem more important. If she wanted revenge, why did she save Faith's life? Has Kana considered this point?

8) Angel says to Buffy "it was none of your business" which must be the most offensive statement he ever made.Buffy had every moral and legal right in the universe to want to bring Faith to justice. She would have had every moral right to bust Angel's jaw for saying something like that to her. I am glad she did not do so.

9)Why was Angel so pissed off? During their brief conversation on the roof Faith had said to Buffy, "It is always about control with you isn't it? You have to be in control." Faith had a point there, but it applied even more to Angel. He had wanted to be Mr Big, the man in charge, but it all fell apart--albeit with a happy ending.

kana

23-04-08, 08:27 PM

1) What Buffy delivered to Angel was,IMO, a hard slap designed to sting, not to inflict serious injury. She hit him not because he "disagreed" with her , but because he physically intervened to prevent Buffy from carrying out her lawful purpose of getting Faith to the police station.

Without getting too nitpicky, what I saw was backhand punch and further attack, which was when Angel defended himself. The visual representation of the scene makes us shocked as was Buffy's reaction. Angel is larger but let us make no mistake, if this a man hitting a woman and being about to hit her again I doubt we'd be as shocked. We may even cheer the woman on. This situation is entirely analogous. The weaker party defended themselves. And as was mentioned earlier, holding a Slayer against her will in a jail cell is consequentially a bad idea, unless of course you want more possible deaths on your hands.

2) Faith was "a welcome guest in his house" was she? Nobody has a right to harbor a suspect wanted for murder and other serious violent offenses.

The what to do with Faith question, I think is an open question but I still believe that turning a Slayer in without her consent is dangerous and pointless. If Faith should be punished a way that doesn't involved injured or possibly dead police officers or prison guards is most likely the way to go. Faith could escape anytime she wanted so if Buffy still believed she was dangerous, turning a Slayer in is dangerous.

3) What Buffy should or should not have done on earlier occasions in Sunnydale is beside the point. If the law could only be upheld by people who never broke it, then it would never be upheld at all

Not sure to what you're referring here, so I'll leave that.

4)The irony of this episode is that Buffy went to LA to help protect Angel from Faith, and ended up protecting Faith from the Watchers. That is what was "selfless and heroic" about her action.

Buffy also says she still has right to her vengeance which she didn't deny she came for in the first place. Overall, I don't believe Buffy actions were much more selfless than Angel's. Buffy actually makes the issue personal, about her and Angel, even though they are no longer dating. Buffy brought up his murderous past, and Riley in attempt to hurt Angel. Her anger is unjustified and because Angel isn't the one who injured her, Faith was. Angel only responded to what Buffy dished out. Angel only hit Buffy when she hit him, he only had his outburst after Buffy deliberatly hurt him (I mean come on, how does telling Angel about Riley really relate to situation. Does it help matters? No. Faith resolved the issue but Buffy's still ranting at Angel)

I think (and I'm not getting all Bangely here) that the issues are as much with Angel as they were with Faith. Buffy seemed less like an impartial Slayer giving out justice and more like a jealous ex girlfriend when she said "Have you any idea what it was like for me to see you with her, that you went behind my back.."

When Angel says that it wasn't about Buffy, he could have responded more sensitively, that is wasn't about "Us". Angel began the task of helping Faith regardless of Buffy, not to spite her, which based upon his mission is right. He'd wouldn't be the vampire with big brass testes if he thought "Do I have permission from Buffy?" everytime he made a decision. Of course Angel's words sting Buffy's insecurity (was she conscious of it at this point) of Buffy's self-centred attitude. I'm not calling Buffy selfish but she has got a self involved side to her, even Riley said so.

5)The real moral hero of this episode, as I should have mentioned before, was Wesley. He was viciously tortured by Faith, yet turned against the Watchers giving a warning to Angel and Buffy that enabled them to save Faith.

Absolutely. It's interesting actually. As Buffy doesn't seem to trust Faith or Angel, Wesley does seem to trust Angel as his mission, he even said that he did the right thing trying to redeem Faith. He sees with his eyes truly not just about how Angel has proven more trustworthy than the WC but also his own sense of self worth and contribution working for AI.

6) Angel is really pissed off at the end of this episode although the best possible outcome had been achieved. Faith had given herself up of her own free will, and the murder plot against her had been foiled.

Yes, although I explained above why Angel was pissed off.

7) Buffy had said that she came to LA because she was worried about Angel. Angel calls her a liar, saying "you came for vengeance". Buffy says that she has a right to vengeance, as a response to Angel's malicious slur. But that does not mean that she intended to get revenge. You do not always exercise your rights, when other matters seem more important. If she wanted revenge, why did she save Faith's life? Has Kana considered this point?

You made the initial point that Buffy intention were selfless and contended that may not be entirely true, no more than Angel's anyway. Buffy also didn't deny that she was looking for vengeance. I'm not sure what exactly Buffy intended for Faith but I do believe she is the one who wanted to decide her fate, not Angel nor the WC.

8) Angel says to Buffy "it was none of your business" which must be the most offensive statement he ever made.Buffy had every moral and legal right in the universe to want to bring Faith to justice. She would have had every moral right to bust Angel's jaw for saying something like that to her. I am glad she did not do so.

I mentioned in my linked mini essay the problems with 'rights and jurisdiction' As Lajula said, in a normal world, sure, but this has consequences. Human laws don't cut it in the supernatural world, so hence we have people like Buffy and Angel. Even if Buffy wasn't intending to keep Faith, so she could kill her, herself, what was she going to do with her? Keep punching her til' she was satisfied? Or force her into a police station ill equipped to deal with her? It has become pretty obvious that the issue had become more than Angel's protection.

9)Why was Angel so pissed off? During their brief conversation on the roof Faith had said to Buffy, "It is always about control with you isn't it? You have to be in control." Faith had a point there, but it applied even more to Angel. He had wanted to be Mr Big, the man in charge, but it all fell apart--albeit with a happy ending.

Why more to Angel? What should he do, defer to Buffy even if he was believed it was wrong thing to do? Like I said, he wasn't trying to help Faith to spite Buffy, he was trying to save her soul which is what Angel does. Like I've said, I have to remove legal application here because it doesn't work unless Faith is willing. Aside from that if Faith isn't willing then as Lajula said, their options are limited.

Anon

23-04-08, 10:38 PM

Buffy had every reason to be angry at Faith, but she let her anger get the better of her in Sanctuary. Angel was doing pretty much the only thing he could do under the circumstances, but in the end Faith chose to give herself up. I think that Buffy played some significant part in this, Faith may well have chosen a different path if left to Angel to deal with, and I think that this was probably for the best.

Having said the above, Buffy was being unreasonable, to put it mildly, for a large part of the episode. To her credit, she was able to put her feelings to one side for long enough to protect Faith from the Watchers who were trying to kill her.

Michael

23-04-08, 10:55 PM

Kana,
Thank you for your post which I enjoyed reading.

When Buffy first shows up in Angel's house she says she heard from Giles that Faith was trying to kill him. There is no reason to doubt this. Faith has tried to kill Angel before, and Buffy has helped him out before at some risk to herself.

I did not say that she intended to act in a selfless and heroic fashion, merely that she did so in fact. When she heard that the Watchers unit was in close proximity she said "They're killers!" (I thought this an interesting comment which I would like to come back to.)

At any rate if you risk your life to protect a woman who tried to steal your life no more than a few weeks ago, and who you know to be a murderer, I think it says quite a lot for your strength of character and your commitment to your principles.

It was after all this, and when Faith had gone to jail of her own free will, that Angel said "You came for vengeance." This was Angel in his sullen, resentful mode.For Angel to talk in the way he does to a woman who gave her blood to save his life less than a year ago is to me intolerable. It is one reason why find his personality so repulsive.

Buffy replies by saying that she had a right to vengeance. She does not confirm or deny that she had vengeance in mind when she came to LA. But all her actions,when action mattered, were quite different. Under fire, she followed her principles.

At the end of the episode Buffy and Angel were fighting. I think this was when the music stopped playing in their love story. I think one or both of them must have realized that even without the other barriers they could not have been a happy couple for long.

I accept your point that Angel was not more controlling than Buffy, but that means that they were both very dominating personalities, Buffy becoming more so as she grows into a mature woman. One marriage would not be big enough for two such egos.

I tend to agree that involuntary jail would not have worked well for Faith. I think she would have broken out and eventually been shot dead by police. I don't think Buffy had given much thought to these issues when she found Angel and Faith together earlier. Yet Buffy seemed content with the eventual result, but Angel was angry.

The Watchers. I speculate that it was about now in the story that Buffy concluded that the Watchers were not what they were supposed to be. In the thread on political metaphors I tried to develop an argument to the effect that the Watchers Council had been ruthlessly exploiting young girls for centuries, and was an unethical employer whose claims to be fighting evil could be taken with a salt mine. Around time of Sanctuary I think that Buffy got the idea that the Watchers were a malevolent body and that she would be the first slayer to really be an empowered female instead of another doomed soul like Kendra or Nikki.

I accept that characters like Angel have their uses.So do characters like 007. If anything I find Angel less obnoxious than James, but I would not like my sister to date either of them.

ThePoet's<3

24-04-08, 07:30 AM

It actually seems like two people in a pissing contest!

Angel is Top Dog in LA. Buffy is Top Dog in Sunnydale. And Faith - was caught in the middle.

Angel wanted to help Faith on his own. He made that connection with her back in Sunnydale.

Buffy was there to "rescue Angel" from Faith.

But what she found was Angel doing very well for himself - without her. And helping her arch nemesis in the process. Pissed her off!

And there was a tinge of jealousy involved as well. Buffy wanted Angel to see she was "moving on" in her life - as well as she just wanted to see him again.

Angel lets out a sharp breath: "That's great. - It's nice - you moved on. - I can't. You found someone new. - I'm not allowed to, remember? I see you again it cuts me up inside and the person I share that with is me! You don't know me anymore. So don't come down here with your great new life and *expect* me to do things your way. - Go home!" Buffy looks at him for a moment then goes to pick up her jacket, while Angel walks over to the wall and braces his hands against it.
Buffy: "See? - Faith wins again."

She had no right to slap Angel. And Angel reminds her after she says, "You HIT me!" That she is the Slayer and she is stronger than he.

Buffy: "You hit me."
Angel: "Not to go all schoolyard on you, but you hit me first. In case you've forgotten - you're a little bit stronger than I am."

It was really more between Buffy and Angel and their issues. Our girl Faith made the decision on her own to do the right thing.

But Angel did go and visit her in prison - so I think it proves his intentions were more about her redemption.

vampmogs

24-04-08, 01:28 PM

Michael

24-04-08, 05:57 PM

Vampmogs,
Here we go again. Once more with feeling.

I take we agree that Buffy went to LA because she heard that Faith was trying to kill Angel, as she had nearly succeeded in doing a short time before. That was quite nice of her wasn't it?

In view of what Faith had done to Buffy a few weeks before, I also think it was quite nice of Buffy to risk her life to save Faith from the Watchers. You seem to agree with this in a backhanded way.

Yet you want to make a federal case out of Buffy giving Angel a smack around the kisser. Apart from the fact that a punch or jab is often the only way to communicate with Angel, if she had really meant to hurt him he would have been bouncing off the wall.

At that moment Buffy's automatic idea was that since Faith was a wanted criminal she should be handed over to the Law. What happened in the end was a much better solution, though I am not clear what Angel had in mind at that stage. He was not talking about jail.

What happened in Sunnydale is irrelevant, and your position on this point does not make sense. You cannot maintain that if Buffy did something wrong in Sunnydale,such as protecting Faith from the police, she must do it again in LA. We have to learn from past mistakes, not repeat them.

Faith tells Angel how badly she feels about Buffy, because Buffy was the one person who had befriended her and went out on a limb for her.At this point Faith's spiritual recovery has started. In what she says about Buffy she is a lot more fair minded and decent than some other people.

Angel turns the other cheek to Faith, as you say,but not to the woman who first inspired him to get out of the gutter and become a man again.

When Angel says to Buffy "it was none of your business", I called that the most offensive thing he had ever said. You do not say that you disagree with this. You just deny that Buffy would have been morally justified in busting his jaw for saying that to her.

You must be aware that words can be so provocative as to justify violent retaliation? No court in the world would try to deny it in principle, though there can be arguments about the merits of individual cases.

In view of what Faith had done to Buffy, for Angel to say "it was none of your business" comes well within the ball park of intolerable provocation. I would be happy to take the case.

In his 200 years or so as a vampire Angel has picked up some occult lore, but nothing of the history,culture, or the manners of European civilization has left any mark or even a faint stain on the desert of his mind. He has his uses, like Bond, but he is not my kind of hero.

Anon

24-04-08, 06:19 PM

I advise you watch Angel season 4 to see who Faith believes helped her out. Angel was the only reason Faith turned herself in, give him some credit.Actually, I have to disagree here. I don't think Faith would have decided to turn herself in without Buffy's interference. If left to Angel alone, she would probably have sought some other means of redemption. Certainly it was Angel that saved her, but I don't think he can claim reponsiblity for what she chose to do next.

At that moment Buffy's automatic idea was that since Faith was a wanted criminal she should be handed over to the Law.Buffy may have been trying to do the right thing, but she was doing it for the wrong reasons and the way she went about it was also wrong. She let her anger get the better of her when dealing with Angel.

The problem with Faith is that she couldn't be held against her will. If she was going to go to jail then it would necessarily be of her own volition. Angel was simply trying to get her to the point where she was safe both for and from the world in general. He probably also intended to act as a guide to help her try and redeem herself, but in the end it was her choice how she did that, not his.

Boltmaiden

24-04-08, 06:21 PM

He is a better man than he was as Angelus, in the same way that a reformed Nazi can be said to have improved. But you don't make heroes out of people like that.Well I don't.

Sorry but I have to jump in here, are you saying Angel isn't a hero at this point in time or do you mean his character could never be a hero period?

Not that I would agree with the first idea but I really, really don't agree with the second idea that Angel is not a hero. I do think he is more flawed and darker than Buffy but in my opinion they are both heroes. I mean Angel screws up royally...and often but he always tries to make it right. Just look at Angel:After the Fall.

Nina

24-04-08, 06:54 PM

I'm no Vampmogs, but I had to reply.

Vampmogs,
Here we go again. Once more with feeling.

I take we agree that Buffy went to LA because she heard that Faith was trying to kill Angel, as she had nearly succeeded in doing a short time before. That was quite nice of her wasn't it?
It's nice ... but it wasn't the whole story. She didn't came there just to save Angel ... she came there to make Faith pay as well.

In view of what Faith had done to Buffy a few weeks before, I also think it was quite nice of Buffy to risk her life to save Faith from the Watchers.
Agree

Yet you want to make a federal case out of Buffy giving Angel a smack around the kisser. Apart from the fact that a punch or jab is often the only way to communicate with Angel, if she had really meant to hurt him he would have been bouncing off the wall.
The only way to communicate with Angel is hitting? I'm sorry, but that isn't true. Angel is a good listener and talker. Besides Buffy didn't want to communicate by talking, she wanted to shut him up because she disagrees with him ... Buffy is the one who can't talk about it in that scene... not Angel.

At that moment Buffy's automatic idea was that since Faith was a wanted criminal she should be handed over to the Law. What happened in the end was a much better solution, though I am not clear what Angel had in mind at that stage. He was not talking about jail.
People already pointed out that jail only works when the slayer wants to go. On that moment, I doubt that there was a real plan for Faith. It all just happened, give them a little bit of time ...

Angel turns the other cheek to Faith, as you say,but not to the woman who first inspired him to get out of the gutter and become a man again.
What do you try to say? Because I can't compare the two situations.

In his 200 years or so as a vampire Angel has picked up some occult lore, but nothing of the history,culture, or the manners of European civilization has left any mark or even a faint stain on the desert of his mind. He has his uses, like Bond, but he is not my kind of hero.
Have you ever heard about the astronauts vs cavemen dilemma? Angel picks the astronauts ... why? because Angel believes in civilization .. in thinking before hitting ... talking above fighting. Angel is a walking encyclopedy, he knows everything about history and culture ... speaks many languages. He can inspire people with words ... and he believes in humans ... I think that it's unfair to say that Angel has no manners. Especially because you think that Buffy does .. who did all those things you hate Angel for as well ... only worse.

Angel is rude because he doesn't call before comming to Sunnydale, neither does Buffy ... but the also walks into his bedroom without knocking.

Angel is awful because he doesn't thank Buffy for the ring and destroys it without her giving green light. Angel helps Buffy with one of her slayers, and she sends Andrew to humiliate and kick Angel when he is down as a thank you.

Angel is evil for saying that LA is his city, but Buffy did it as well ... and Angel acted less dominant in Sunnydale than Buffy in LA.

Angel doesn't know civilization because he uses words to stop Buffy, but Buffy is aloud to hit people who don't agree with her and she has manners in your eyes.

But I guess this is already off-topic.

Michael

24-04-08, 08:05 PM

Nina,
Nice to hear from you again. I like your thread on power and rights and ethics and I hope it will go on for some time.

This particular argument is mainly though not exclusively about Sanctuary which I have watched three times over the last couple of days, including part of it using the slow motion facility on my dvd player.

I am satisfied that Buffy gave Angel a backhanded smack, not designed to hurt him much.

Buffy did not, repeat not, hit Angel because he disagreed with her.

Please look at the episode. You will see that Buffy wants to prevent Faith from getting away and Angel physically intervenes to stop her. Buffy's smack is a response to his intervention not his views.

At this point Buffy wants to hand Faith over to the Law. There is no evidence from her actions that she wants any other result, and I doubt whether she had thought about the issue in a careful way at that time.

In the event, Faith gives herself up, which is the best result. Had she been imprisoned against her will she would have broken out and probably, eventually, have been shot by the police.

Buffy is content with this result though Angel is upset. I think he is upset because his attempt to control the situation fell apart, and he blames it on Buffy. I don't think he intended to encourage Faith to go to jail.

By the way, choosing to go to jail for your crimes, when you might have got away, is a sign of a desire for real atonement. Angel's form of atonement fits in too neatly with the demands of his ego for my taste. But I am not, repeat not, saying that there is no more to him that than

When Angel says to Buffy in his sullen and resentful voice, "it was none of your business" he was saying something so morally obscene that it is a tribute to Buffy that she offered only a verbal response. I have said in an earlier post that I think this is when it all died between them.

If Angel is a walking encyclopedia it must be the shortest one ever written.He does not have an intellectual personality and so far I have seen not a whiff of intellectual curiosity.

The other points you refer to are issues we have debated before. My views are on the record for anyone interested and unless there is a fresh point somewhere, I think it is time to move on.

LaJaula

24-04-08, 09:29 PM

Buffy is content with this result though Angel is upset.

I really don't see this at all. I think Angel was angry with the Watchers for interfering with what happened, and with Buffy for the same reason, but I don't seem him as being dissatisfied with Faith's choosing to go to jail. Have you watched the Angel episode Judgment? Angel goes to visit Faith in jail, and talks to her about how, while it's hard sometimes to do the right thing, it's ultimately worth it. I've seen nothing to suggest that Angel didn't want her in jail.

He does not have an intellectual personality and so far I have seen not a whiff of intellectual curiosity.

You've seen Amends, right, where Angel reads Sartre in the original French? And Helpless, where he gives Buffy a book of poetry? And The Ring, where he demonstrates knowledge of Russian? And Damage, where it's shown that he speaks fluent Romanian? (Not that this is at all relevant to Faith, but I just thought I'd mention it.)

Anyways, Michael, I think you're too willing to see the best in Buffy and the worst in Angel. I like Buffy too, but I do believe that there are some times when she's wrong and someone else is right.

Michael

24-04-08, 10:01 PM

LaJaula,
Thank you. I will certainly look at the episodes you have mentioned, and will be ready to modify my opinion. My efforts to like Angel tend to fall down when he says things like "it was none of your business" to Buffy.

I don't think it is clear what Angel had in mind for Faith. Don't you think it would be a little bit rich for Angel to tell Faith that she must seek atonement in prison, while he roars around all over the place with his vampire strength and eternal youth?

Of course I don't know what being Angel feels like, but I think most sinners would reckon he is getting a nice deal.

I really want to see Faith and Buffy back together, because I think that they both need things they can only give to each other. Buffy could be vastly happier with Faith as her close friend and ally, and for Faith is would be a true walk with destiny.

However, I imagine that Joss Whedon would only arrange their reunion in the context of a larger and desperate struggle. No one is allowed to be happy for long.

kana

24-04-08, 10:08 PM

Hello guys, I'll try and address the points. I apologize that's in no particular order but we'll see how we go.

Nice to hear from you again. I like your thread on power and rights and ethics and I hope it will go on for some time.

Yes, of course I'm not Nina ;), but yes I agree that's a good thread, I'll check it out after this most likely. :).

I am satisfied that Buffy gave Angel a backhanded smack, not designed to hurt him much.

That still bothers me somewhat. In any event, Buffy did attack Angel and continued to attack him, Angel defended himself against a stronger adversary.

Buffy did not, repeat not, hit Angel because he disagreed with her.

It wasn't self defence either. Whatever the reason, he continued to attack him.

Please look at the episode. You will see that Buffy wants to prevent Faith from getting away and Angel physically intervenes to stop her. Buffy's smack is a response to his intervention not his views.

Agreed but she did not need to continue to attack him.

At this point Buffy wants to hand Faith over to the Law. There is no evidence from her actions that she wants any other result, and I doubt whether she had thought about the issue in a careful way at that time.

After thinking about it, I agree, like I said before, Buffy's anger was clouding her judgement, after she cooled down she even said she may have been wrong to make the judgements she made. I give her credit for that. I wouldn't however change Buffy for the world. I like that she is a girl of her emotions. It's a double edge sword but the more I watch the shows, the more I understand the importance of that.

In the event, Faith gives herself up, which is the best result. Had she been imprisoned against her will she would have broken out and probably, eventually, have been shot by the police.

Agreed.

Buffy is content with this result though Angel is upset. I think he is upset because his attempt to control the situation fell apart, and he blames it on Buffy. I don't think he intended to encourage Faith to go to jail.

There is no evidence to m that that is the reason Angel was upset or that Buffy was content.

To me Buffy seemed far from content:

Buffy: "You should have told me what was going on."
Angel: "I didn't - I didn't think it was your business."
Buffy: "Not my business?"
Angel: "I needed more time with Faith. I'm not sure.."

I thought about this. Angel seemed satisfied that Faith "Had a chance". If we interpret it one way then Angel was still concerned for Faith, why would we assume that it has anything to do with control? If he was concerned that Faith wasn't ready for prison, ok! I don't think there is anything wrong with that. In the end he is the one who gives Wesley a positive prognosis. Maybe Angel was concerned, as someone said, he did visit her in prison. Nothing wrong with that in my eyes. I always felt that Angel has a personal connection with Faith which is part of his mission. As we see later this too is a double edge sword that also has disastrous consequences, I'm weird in that I wouldn't have it any other way. I still hold what he did for Faith with positive regard.

By the way, choosing to go to jail for your crimes, when you might have got away, is a sign of a desire for real atonement. Angel's form of atonement fits in too neatly with the demands of his ego for my taste. But I am not, repeat not, saying that there is no more to him that than

What exactly do you mean? Do you mean the atonement he had in mind for Faith? We don't know exactly whether he intended for Faith for make a confession voluntarily. We know he seems satisfied with Faith's decision and supports it in a subsequent episode. That suggest to me that Angel seemed more interested that Faith seeks atonement or at least tries rather than focus on how she is going to do it. Angel actually explicitly states that Faith should pay for what she's done. That's actually the main point, how she does that? Well that's her choice.

When Angel says to Buffy in his sullen and resentful voice, "it was none of your business" he was saying something so morally obscene that it is a tribute to Buffy that she offered only a verbal response. I have said in an earlier post that I think this is when it all died between them.

I actually don't see it that way. I think it was Buffy who was really upset here to begin with. She hated that she wasn't involved.

Buffy: "You should have told me what was going on."

In my eyes Angel wasn't trying to spite Buffy, he was trying to explain why he acted the way he did. I mentioned earlier one theory is that Angel wasn't sure if Faith was going to be ok, but another inference we can make is that

at the time when he could have let Buffy in on it, he was focused on Faith

This seems plausible. It's certainly possible.

Buffy: "You needed - Do you have any - idea what it was like for me to see you with her? That you went behind my back..."
Angel: "Buffy, this wasn't about you! This was about saving somebody's soul. That's what I do here, and you're not a part of it.

I always felt that this was the point. When he said it wasn't about Buffy, he didn't mean (or say) he didn't care about what happened to her, or between them. His focus was saving Faith's soul, he doesn't believe he should have to clear it with Buffy if he wants to do this. And this brings us to the authority issue which we mentioned earlier so we'll leave it.

If Angel is a walking encyclopedia it must be the shortest one ever written.He does not have an intellectual personality and so far I have seen not a whiff of intellectual curiosity.

I'm not sure exactly of Angel's intellectual skills, but I suppose it may be relative. One person's moron etc...All I can tell he's knowledgable about certain demon lore and some of the metaphysical. He has a limited skill in sorcery, and can speak a variety of languages and is familiar with various works of literature. His knowledge of demonic languages is surpassed by Wesley as is his research skills. While he has a talent for languages and literature and art and some forms of history (be it human or demon) he is less interested or adept at technology and science. I'm not sure what consistutes being intellectually curious. Angelus once mockingly stated he was knowledge seeker, and Wesley, a scholar, believes Angel is smarter than he is. Fred in all her girlcrush splender implied that Angel was well read. These are merely opinions based upon personal biases or varying intended affects, not sure how much weight we can put on it. To me Angel was always as mentally adept as anyone else but in different areas.

EDIT: I said, I'll post more later but it already looks kind of long so I'll leave it.

Nina

24-04-08, 11:12 PM

Nina,
Nice to hear from you again. I like your thread on power and rights and ethics and I hope it will go on for some time.
Thank you. :)

This particular argument is mainly though not exclusively about Sanctuary which I have watched three times over the last couple of days, including part of it using the slow motion facility on my dvd player.
I havén't seen it in months ... to be honest. And my DVD player died, so I can't give it a quick rewatch. But I saw the episode many times because it's one of my favourite season 1 episodes.

I am satisfied that Buffy gave Angel a backhanded smack, not designed to hurt him much.
I guess that we have agree to disagree because I'm against hitting people because they do something you don't want, especially when they are weaker than you are. In my eyes, Buffy was way out of line, of course she didn't want to break is jaw ... but that doesn't make it a good thing.

Buffy did not, repeat not, hit Angel because he disagreed with her

Please look at the episode. You will see that Buffy wants to prevent Faith from getting away and Angel physically intervenes to stop her. Buffy's smack is a response to his intervention not his views..
I just took a look at the script, and you are right about her not hitting because he disagrees.

Buffy: "Apologize to me and I will beat you to death."
Faith quietly: "Go ahead."
Angel steps in front of Faith: "This is not gonna happen."
Buffy: "You're gonna stop me? Because you're gonna have to."
Faith shakes her head: "Don't - so this."
Angel: "Faith, go upstairs - now."
Buffy: "You think I'm gonna let her out of my sight?"
Angel: "Buffy, just back off."
Buffy: "There is no way I'm letting her out of my sight."
Angel: "Faith, go!"
Faith goes up the stairs and Buffy moves to stop her.
Buffy: "Don't you move a..."
Angel catches her arm and she turns to punch him full in the face. She hauls back to hit him again, but Angel blocks her fist and hits her across the face in return.
Angel steps back as Buffy stares at him with a hand over her mouth.
Angel: "I'm sorry. - I'm sorry."
Faith opens the upstairs door and steps into Angel's office. Wesley comes in from the outer office as Faith stares down the stairs.
Wesley: "Faith? (Faith turns to look at him) Going somewhere?"
Faith turns to stare back down the stairs: "No. Just wanted to be alone."
Wesley comes closer: "Angel downstairs?"
Faith: "Yeah."
Wesley: "Right."

He did something Buffy didn't want him to do, still not a good reason to hit somebody.

At this point Buffy wants to hand Faith over to the Law. There is no evidence from her actions that she wants any other result, and I doubt whether she had thought about the issue in a careful way at that time.

In the event, Faith gives herself up, which is the best result. Had she been imprisoned against her will she would have broken out and probably, eventually, have been shot by the police.
Buffy didn't knew on that moment that Faith was already far enough to go to jail. That's why Angel didn't send Faith to jail, as long Faith wasn't ready ... it didn't make sense to force her. Buffy didn't gave it time, and that doesn't make her evil or stupid or mean ... but it didn't make her right as well. Buffy gives the human law sometimes to much credit ... a normal person you can lock up against his/her will ... but a slayer has to go when she wants to go.

Buffy is content with this result though Angel is upset. I think he is upset because his attempt to control the situation fell apart, and he blames it on Buffy. I don't think he intended to encourage Faith to go to jail.
Angel was upset because he was in a fight with Buffy ... that had nothing to do with Faith and Buffy wasn't content at all to be honest.

By the way, choosing to go to jail for your crimes, when you might have got away, is a sign of a desire for real atonement. Angel's form of atonement fits in too neatly with the demands of his ego for my taste. But I am not, repeat not, saying that there is no more to him that than
Sometimes jail isn't the best thing to do .... Angel learned that in the years he punished himself ... nobody gets better of that, if you start fighting the good fight, you can help people. And I don't say that jail isn't a good option, Faith decided that she needed that time in jail, but for warriors there can be better ways and that has nothing to do with egos. Gunn went to hell, Angel lived on the streets and Faith went to jail ... but after that they should come back and clean there mess up and try to pay for their mistakes.

Besides, there is no reason to think that Angel would stop Faith from going to jail, he just thought that she wasn't ready yet.

When Angel says to Buffy in his sullen and resentful voice, "it was none of your business" he was saying something so morally obscene that it is a tribute to Buffy that she offered only a verbal response. I have said in an earlier post that I think this is when it all died between them.
I've to agree with Kana here.

If Angel is a walking encyclopedia it must be the shortest one ever written.He does not have an intellectual personality and so far I have seen not a whiff of intellectual curiosity.
You really only see what you want, do you? ... I agree with Kana that his knowledge isn't all round. But he knows lots about art (theatre, paintings etc.), he has talents for languages, we know that he speaks at least Italian, French, English, Romanian, Korean, Latin, Greek, German and Spanish, we know that he has a photographic memory and he knows a lot about fighting and weapons, he has lots of knowledge about demons and magic. He has also knowledge about the human psyche. And he is well read like LaJaula already said. And to be honest, I think that he knows everything about fashion. :D

edit:
And I remember Angel cracking Cordelia's creditcard ... but I'm not sure if I rememberd that one right. But that shows some technical knwoledge. ANd he found out the mobile phone 4 seasons before Buffy found them out. :P