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-beardo-
22-02-09, 05:38 PM
Okay so i just picked up the last issue of After The Fall and Harmonic Divergence and i thought it was a little odd that vampires are liked even though they are killing people.

Okay so right now i think that Buffy is set in early 2005 around March (despite the pop culture references, i read somewhere that Jeanty said that there are lots of references like this and we should not use those references as a timeline, i believe that things in the Buffyverse are different and some things happen earlier) anyway. It seems like Angel is set in June-September 2004.

Now do you guys believe that the reason Harmony is popular is because of Angel's popularity. I mean he is worshipped right now, maybe people see that Angel is a nice vampire and now have been tricked to think that all vampires are like Angel.

Nina
22-02-09, 05:59 PM
Yes, ATF happens before season 8. And Angel and Spike are heroes in LA. But only in LA, issue 16 seems to indicate that nobody believes the people in LA. So it's very well possible that Harmony is the reason why the whole world adores vampires while Angel is only a local hero. And I do think that she got a show because her bosses in LA are aware of the demon world, it's probably the hot topic in LA.

Only the problem is that all those people in LA also remember bad vampires. They are fully aware that not every vampire is cute and a hero. But it's possible that people think that you have good and evil vampires, and that Harmony, Angel and Spike are good vampires.

jj.bsb
03-03-09, 03:37 PM
To me a still mystery is why all LA loves Angel team. They rescue every one, wright, but they where, at some point, responsible for leading the hole city to Hell.:confused:

NileQT87
03-03-09, 07:39 PM
No, they weren't responsible for sending L.A. to Hell. W&H did that all by their lonesome.

Emmie
03-03-09, 09:14 PM
No, they weren't responsible for sending L.A. to Hell. W&H did that all by their lonesome.

If you pull a tiger by the tail, are you not partially responsible when it turns and attacks you? And after it gets a taste for human flesh and becomes a man-killer, it goes on to attack other people. Did you not set this path in motion? Cause and effect. While Angel and his team are not solely responsible, they set the actions in motion. Did this potentially avert or at least delay W&H's plans for the CAPITAL A Apocalypse? So it seems. Does it mean they're partially responsible for 11 million people being sent to Hell? Yes, I believe they are. And so does Angel within the text of After the Fall #1:

(Narration) ANGEL: Everyone wants to know what they could have possibly done wrong to be in this situation...Each time, every time, I leave them in the dark...I don’t tell them that they’re here because I took a stand. My friends stood with me.

NileQT87
03-03-09, 09:26 PM
They're there because W&H retaliated against Angel for taking a stand. ;) 100% of the guilt is on W&H's shoulders and that is who people are blaming.

You don't blame the person fighting evil for the way the evil might retaliate. The innocents who get hurt because the evil used them as punishment to strike back against the hero are not the guilt of the hero.

vampmogs
04-03-09, 01:15 AM
Agreed.

Willow attacks Glory in 'Tough Love' and Glory swears revenge, "this isn't over you here me, this isn't over!" Glory lives up to that promise at the end of that episode when she bursts down Willow/Tara's wall and attacks the gang. If the truck hadn't hit Glory it's very likely Glory could have killed Buffy in that moment, would this have been Willow's fault because Glory retaliated due to her actions? I don't think so, and I think Buffy would be out of line to claim it is.

Or take 'Phases' for example. Was it Buffy's fault Theresa was killed because Angelus handpicked her to kill, "hey don't you go to school with Buffy?" so that he could use her as a tool to send Buffy a message, "Angel sends his love" Again, I don't think so.

Was it Angel's fault that "his girls were painting the town, red, red, red" because Wolfram and Hart brought back Darla and Dru all to mess with Angel? Nope, it was Wolfram and Hart's fault, Angel can't be held responsible for anything Wolfram and Hart does to others to make him suffer. That's ridiculous.

Good guys can't be blamed for how the evil retaliates against them. They fight evil, that is what they do and they should never stop trying. Angel's right that they took a stand and LA sent them to Hell, so what? The blood is still on Wolfram and Hart's hands.

Emmie
04-03-09, 01:44 AM
Okay, how about this as an analogy:

You find a ticking timebomb set to explode in 5 minutes. You warn your friends and loved ones to get out of town (Nina and Connor) then you try to disarm it. It explodes prematurely because you cut the wrong wire and kills (sends to Hell) everyone within it's destructive radius. It kills everyone who you failed to warn to stand back or get out of town. The battle Angel fought was fought amongst the city dwellers who he failed to warn to get out like he did Nina and Connor. He knew that W&H would retaliate, he just underestimated them. They punished him by taking his entire city to hell, not just the people he cared about. It's similar to snipers only taking the shot when they're sure not to hit any innocent victims. You engage the enemy when you are in control of the game and can limit the fall-out of unnecessary casualties.

He antagonized an opponent in a fight he *knew* that he wasn't going to completely kill. He killed the Circle and Hamilton, but knew that the power of W&H would remain untouched and they would retaliate.

When you start a war that through its natural progression involves millions of innocent bystanders, you don't get to just say 'oh well, just because I punched him first and he escalated in retaliating'. Angel and Co. didn't send LA to hell. But he was the one who set it in motion.

When a country goes after terrorists and innocent bystanders are caught in the crossfire, do good intentions completely absolve responsibility? It's more complex than saying Angel was trying to save the world, so it doesn't matter if people got hurt.

LA wouldn't have been sent to hell if Angel hadn't killed the Circle and Hamilton. His action is inextricably linked in the laws of cause and effect to LA being sent to hell.

vampmogs
04-03-09, 01:52 AM
He antagonized an opponent in a fight he *knew* that he wasn't going to completely kill. He killed the Circle and Hamilton, but knew that the power of W&H would remain untouched and they would retaliate.

Which is much like Willow in 'Tough Love' she knew there wasn't a chance she could kill Glory either...

Angel knew they'd retaliate, he states as much in 'Power Play' but there's no indication that he had any idea they'd retaliate against the whole city. Only him and the team. Angel didn't go into this thinking "LA is a worthy sacrifice" he went into this thinking, "ten to one when the dust clears we won't be standing" he didn't ever think Wolfram and Hart would let them live, he truly believed they'd do "everything in their power to destroy (them)"


When you start a war that through its natural progression involves millions of innocent bystanders, you don't get to just say 'oh well, just because I punched him first and he escalated in retaliating'. Angel and Co. didn't send LA to hell. But he was the one who set it in motion.

Angel never believed it to be a "natural progression" that it would involve millions of innocent bystanders, no one on his team did. If they did they never brought it up. Angel makes it pretty clear he believed retaliation would be killing the team, not hurting the city. He didn’t think Wolfram and Hart would even want him alive.


When a country goes after terrorists and innocent bystanders are caught in the crossfire, do good intentions completely absolve responsibility? It's more complex than saying Angel was trying to save the world, so it doesn't matter if people got hurt.

See above about Angel never planning to have innocent bystanders be involved in this in anyway.


LA wouldn't have been sent to hell if Angel hadn't killed the Circle and Hamilton. His action is inextricably linked in the laws of cause and effect to LA being sent to hell.

Which can be said about a lot of Good Vs Evil battles in both shows though. In fact Kate says it way back in s2 to Angel. But the good guys can't stop fighting because of that. I would understand the hesitance but it can’t dictate to you not to fight evil because of it or evil would never be overcome. If Angel knew that LA would go to hell, that the Senior Partners would strike out at millions of innocent people it’d be a darker decision but he didn’t and no one in his team did either. They believed this would have isolated repercussions for them only.

But hey I'd rather be debating this when we're at least including his "team" as being responsible and it not being solely Angel's fault.

Emmie
04-03-09, 02:00 AM
But hey I'd rather be debating this when we're at least including his "team" as being responsible and it not being solely Angel's fault.

I put Angel and Co. in my above post. His team's involvement was implied later on because I didn't feel like typing that again and again.

Okay, one more analogy. Angel and W&H were caught in a Cold War situation. Angel fired the first shots. W&H (free of any moral restraints that would prevent unwarranted escalation, something Angel knew) retaliated by nuking LA. Who started the hostile action that resulted in 11 million people's suffering?

No, it's not fully Angel's fault. But again he got his hands very dirty. This is Angel here. He's not a perfect white knight. He's the dark hero, the Byronic hero who does right but is imperfect. That's what makes him interesting. Ultimately did Angel do the right thing by putting a cog in the wheel by stopping the Circle? Not sure, but I think so. Does that mean he isn't partly responsible for all nearly 11 million people's suffering from living in Hell for a few months? No, he and his team are partially responsible. The battle had unfortunate casualties. But absolving Angel and Co. from all responsibility truly is reducing this suffering all too casually.

I'm not preaching hesitation in battle scenarios. But that doesn't mean that Angel and Co. got out of this squeaky clean. The consequences of their actions follow them. Just as Drogyn's murder should follow Angel.

vampmogs
04-03-09, 02:05 AM
I put Angel and Co. in my above post. His team's involvement was implied later on because I didn't feel like typing that again and again.

No that's what I meant. I meant I'd rather be debating this then the same old tired discussions about how Angel's responsible and not his crew as well. I was acknowledging your inclusion of "his team" and their involvement in this as well, and how it's a relief. :)

I understand what you're saying about Wolfram and Hart being a result of what Angel and Co. did. You're right about that. But I don't feel they should shoulder any of the responsibility of the innocent people hurt because of this. The Senior Partners did what they did, they have the blood on their hands and chose to retaliate in this manner. Angel believed they'd only get revenge on them not the entire city so I can't really blame him or the others. Angel’s usually always hard on himself so it doesn’t surprise me he’d feel guilty but I don’t necessarily think he should have to even if it's understandable that he does.

It's kind of like this IMO- A guy decides to take a stand against some criminal big bads and mucks up their operation and hands one of them over to the cops. The rest of the gang decide to retaliate by hunting down this guy's wife and bashing the holy hell outta her. The guy is obviously going to feel guilty, his wife wouldn't have been attacked if it wasn't for him taking a stand against the gang but it's the gang who are responsible. They chose to attack her, not the husband he was just trying to do what was right.

Emmie
04-03-09, 02:21 AM
It's kind of like this IMO- A guy decides to take a stand against some criminal big bads and mucks up their operation and hands one of them over to the cops. The rest of the gang decide to retaliate by hunting down this guy's wife and bashing the holy hell outta her. The guy is obviously going to feel guilty, his wife wouldn't have been attacked if it wasn't for him taking a stand against the gang but it's the gang who are responsible. They chose to attack her, not the husband he was just trying to do what was right.

Yet going into this situation, the good guy knows that he only turned in one of the bad guys. In this situation with the police or FBI, he normally demands his family be put into protective custody first. His not doing this action of protecting his family lacks foresight.

It's like back in medieval times when the men went to war, they left those unable to fight protected in fortresses, in citadels. They even went so far as to have the Catholic Church mandate that violent action was unlawful on certain days and against certain people. Basically, when you go to war - no holds barred war against an opponent with immeasurable power, you protect who you can. Angel attacked W&H and as the Champion of LA, his people were made to suffer right along with him. He wounded the snake, he didn't kill it. And the snake couldn't kill Angel because they needed him, so they hurt *everyone* else.

NileQT87
04-03-09, 02:36 AM
How do you kill a snake that doesn't even live in this dimension and has no form that we've seen? Angel would have died any day of the week to just "wound" W&H if it meant going out with a bang. He has never expected to actually end up fighting the wolf, ram and hart, themselves. The Circle of the Black Thorn was the most important group connected to the Senior Partners/the three pure demons (presumably that's what they are) that he had a chance to go out fighting. Angel's already killed one of the Senior Partners, but they aren't all running into this dimension as Kleynachs for him to kill.

You don't not fight evil because of how they might retaliate. And innocents have not always throughout history been protected from retaliation and it isn't anyone's fault other than those who retaliate. Feeling guilt is not the same as being guilty.

Morrydwen
04-03-09, 05:36 AM
Angel fired the first shots. W&H (free of any moral restraints that would prevent unwarranted escalation, something Angel knew) retaliated by nuking LA. Who started the hostile action that resulted in 11 million people's suffering?

Well, actually, W&H started it. They'd been doing evil deeds for god only knows how long before Angel happened upon them. He, being a good guy, tried to stop them, repeatedly. So...yeah, they definitely fired first.

Should he still feel that weight of responsibility in some way? Yes. It's not his fault, but if he didn't feel responsible, he wouldn't be a hero.

jj.bsb
05-03-09, 03:07 PM
Angel knew they'd retaliate, he states as much in 'Power Play' but there's no indication that he had any idea they'd retaliate against the whole city. Only him and the team.

He give Nina flying tickets.


Emmie
No, it's not fully Angel's fault. But again he got his hands very dirty. This is Angel here. He's not a perfect white knight. He's the dark hero, the Byronic hero who does right but is imperfect. That's what makes him interesting. Ultimately did Angel do the right thing by putting a cog in the wheel by stopping the Circle? Not sure, but I think so. Does that mean he isn't partly responsible for all nearly 11 million people's suffering from living in Hell for a few months? No, he and his team are partially responsible. The battle had unfortunate casualties. But absolving Angel and Co. from all responsibility truly is reducing this suffering all too casually.

I'm not preaching hesitation in battle scenarios. But that doesn't mean that Angel and Co. got out of this squeaky clean. The consequences of their actions follow them. Just as Drogyn's murder should follow Angel.
Can I Just copy your post?:D
My poit is, if I was sent to a hell Dimension couse a hero get the idea of stop for some moments an huge evil group (Circle Of Black Torn), I will be very upset and he bringing me back wasn't be enough. And with all this mess probably should be some kind of police inquerity if not an Congress investigation to to do a realy deep guilts verification.


Morrydwen
Well, actually, W&H started it. They'd been doing evil deeds for god only knows how long before Angel happened upon them. He, being a good guy, tried to stop them, repeatedly. So...yeah, they definitely fired first.
If we go to this point, not at all couse the earth was first a demons land so the beings responsible for the banishment of th Old Ones/ Pure Demons were "invaders"

Nina
05-03-09, 06:47 PM
He could've gave Nina those tickets because he was afraid that they would go after her. The same for Connor. That they would kill people who are loved by him? Which they did in the end, Angel loves humanity and W&H went after all the people in LA. But that Angel didn't saw it coming and only though that they would hurt the people who are very close to him?

vampmogs
06-03-09, 01:50 AM
Angel attacked W&H and as the Champion of LA, his people were made to suffer right along with him. He wounded the snake, he didn't kill it. And the snake couldn't kill Angel because they needed him, so they hurt *everyone* else.

But Angel couldn't possibly see that coming? It's one thing for Angel to get people who knew him by close association out of town like he tried to do with Nina and getting Connor away. But it's another big leap to say that extends to every single human in the entire city of Los Angeles. I mean Angel really can't be blamed for that? It'd be interesting to dig up old posts before 'After the Fall' and actually see how many fans assumed that when we cut out of that alleyway in 'Not Fade Away' the Senior Partners sent LA to hell or punished the entire human population. Because if the majority of fans didn't see it as likely, Angel certainly shouldn't have to. The only thing driven home in 'Power Play' and 'Not Fade Away' was that they'd get revenge on Angel and Co, not the random human population.

Troll
06-03-09, 06:36 AM
Well, this certainly is surprising - Angel getting blamed for LA getting sucked into hell.

I'll agree that Angel's hands aren't clean as is the case with Drognyn thing (It was pretty disturbing to see Angel killing Paul Atreides! XD), but then again what real life battles ever are? One of the best things I loved about NFA was that it was a noble battle shown in the most bloody, dirty and all together morally ambiguous manner, which in turn makes it very realistic. It had no shining heroes or evil looking villains, it showed normal people with normal strengths and weaknesses taking on the human condition in regards to evil. It's not pretty, but to me it's very honest and very truthful.

Basically, Angel started a war, and in war people get hurt. No winners or losers just victims and the ones who do the victimizing. It's not pretty, and feel good philosophies can't really help. If we blame Angel for the Hell-A incident, because he made a stand against Wolfram and Heart then we might as well blame Buffy for those who were killed by the Mayor when she lead them in the fight in season 3.

On the other hand, Angel took on the Blackthorn because he wanted to help make a world without pain or evil - without WR&H. Is that a good thing? Not necessarily. Stalin and Hitler tried to make a world a better place too. So did Jasmine through her OPRAH FigHtan mAgiCKS. The difference between Angel and these other guys is that the latter believed that only they had the answer.

This goal isn't necessarily good, but then again, how can you find out what is truly good if WR&H is controlling you like Big Brother. As always, Angel was going into a very gray territory when he pulled off his plan, and the consequences (at that point) were clearly unpredictable, but he wanted to change something. And all the great poets, heroes and philosophers throughout history wanted the same thing - to make the world a better place, even while recognizing that they may wrong.

It didn't mean they were all squeaky clean supah heroes. In some cases, they screwed up badly, but it's the spirit of such acts that make them all worth while.

And in the end that was what Angel was about - trying, believing, failing and doing it all over again until you get something right. In many ways, Angel never really changed since the day of his ensoulment days. He's still struggling with his moral framework but at the same time, putting enough in faith to act them out.

to conclude, I'd like to quote the words of a salty Hungarian religious scholar, Dr. Stephan Hoeller: War is not the answer and Pacifism is not the answer. Spirit is the Answer.

Okay, Trolling ended. Peace and chicken grease.

Bloodsucker
06-03-09, 01:16 PM
Can't see the public blaming Angel and his crew for what happened. After all, what they saw most of the time was Angel doing his best to save them from the evil surrounding them. Not actually havign been able to read the comics, I'm not even sure how much they know (that is, if they know at all that Wolfram & Hart were retaliating for Angel & Co taking out the Circle of the Black Thorn). And if they did - well, the Circle was planning an apocalypse, and pretty soon. I'm fairly sure the public would find taking them out and havign to endure retaliation the better option than actually having to endure the end of the world, as far as that can be endured at all.

jj.bsb
06-03-09, 03:32 PM
Basically, Angel started a war, and in war people get hurt. No winners or losers just victims and the ones who do the victimizing. It's not pretty, and feel good philosophies can't really help.
Yeah, he started a war, in the middle of L.A. It isn't a good idea to me.


If we blame Angel for the Hell-A incident, because he made a stand against Wolfram and Heart then we might as well blame Buffy for those who were killed by the Mayor when she lead them in the fight in season 3.
Those people knew they will going to a battle, they have weapons, and buffy didn't start it. The Mayor ascended there. Without Buffy and the weapons they will just be food.


On the other hand, Angel took on the Blackthorn because he wanted to help make a world without pain or evil - without WR&H.


I think he hasn't so much hope:

ANGEL
We're in a machine. The Black Thorn runs it. We can bring their gears to a grinding halt, even if it's just for a moment.

Nina
06-03-09, 11:33 PM
What could Angel do? Should he just sit there and let W&H do their thing? It's not like Angel could battle them at a battlefield without innocents. The most dangerous about W&H is their unknown but big power and that they are pure evil and will destroy the world once. Angel and his team were aware of that, they wouyld be wrong as well when they were just waiting for it to happen. I blame the cancellation of Ats for the rushed end, but in the end there was not much of a choice. Angel couldn't stop W&H but also couldn't do nothing, and the PtB put him on this path maybe that's important to remember that as well.

Is he innocent in this all, of course not because he could've known that W&H would make him pay in a different way than death. But there are always risks, look at Buffy's pln in 'Chosen', it could've ended in a big victory of the Fist with Turok Hans all over the world. That it didn't happen is more luck (or stupid writing) than brilliance or good thinking. But should she just let The First do his thing because her plan had some risks? Every plan has pros and cons, especially in Ats. And team Angel (the whole team) is for a part responsible for what happened but I think that it's too easy to blame only Angel for hell. He had no idea that W&H would do something that big, and there were reasons for that. Look what it did to W&H; they left LA, lost lots of money, power and they showed their faces to the city. What they did was too much for them to handle. Honestly, how could anybody predict something like this?

In the end, it was a bluf by W&H and a 'something that had to happen' plan from the PtB who did send Angel on this path. Doesn't take away resposibility that comes with a free choice, but at least it's a shared one with bigger roles for W&H and the PtB than for team Angel, who were just tools.

jj.bsb
12-03-09, 05:27 PM
What could Angel do? Should he just sit there and let W&H do their thing?
If we go to the Tv explanation, his decision was the best one. I loved Angel's final episode. But, in the story itself, he had some time (that congressist was in campaign, IRC she even wanted to be president!), so he could alert Giles, Buffy and Willow, send a message like he did to Wesley's book, or faking a fiht with Spike to he go out.


It's not like Angel could battle them at a battlefield without innocents.
I think he could used same plot to meet all the Blak Torn members in an isolated place, as that desert theatre, or send they to a different space/dimension, since Wesley could escape from Illyrias army place in Shells they probably had background to make a fight in a safer place.


In the end, it was a bluf by W&H and a 'something that had to happen' plan from the PtB who did send Angel on this path. Doesn't take away resposibility that comes with a free choice, but at least it's a shared one with bigger roles for W&H and the PtB than for team Angel, who were just tools.
I agree with you that tey're not the only ones to be guilt, but my main problem is that anyone else in L.A, even in U.S.A. seems to try to investigate what happened (L.A. going to hell, Sunnydale becaming a crater). If the comics, in Buffy and Angel, are going to place their stories in a world where everyone knows about them and monsters, should be believeable that the government make some providences. If this happened with me I wanna, at least a Congress Commission of Inquiry (Ok, here in Brazil, they even discuss why we lost the World Cup to the France). I can totally see USA politicians doing a new "Witch Hunt".

Nina
12-03-09, 05:56 PM
It wasn't possible to kill the members of the circle somewhere else. They were too strong for that, Angel and his team needed the power of suprise to win. Bring them together or get the isolated somewhere, was out of the question because Team Angel would be toast. So there was no other option than kill them in downtown LA, where they lived and didn't expect something.

Which was also the reason why he couldn't contact anyone. W&H would've noticed a phonecall, message or letter. It's not like he and Buffy had a daily chat. If Angel would've contacted Buffy for something, it would be something special and be noticed. And I doubt that Angel has the magical power to send a message across the world without W&H noticing it. And of course the little problem that Buffy and her team refused to talk to/help Angel.

And about the goverment wanting information because it got this big, that's not something Angel could've forseen. Who could know that W&H would drop their cover and show the city who they are? Besides, the goverment in the Buffyverse were always a master in denying everything that was not logical. They would probably have some lame story to explain the big crater and weird looking persons.

kana
12-03-09, 06:05 PM
I think this is the problem that faces our heroes when going up against enemies such as W&H. They either look away and let them get away with atrocities or they take them on and either suffer or become corrupted in some way. The problem with the chain of causality, it makes us wonder where the buck stops. W&H could have punished Angel by sending LA for any good deed he did or any soul he saved. In short I'd agree that the good guys aren't responsible for the bad guys being gits. lol

Bloodsucker
12-03-09, 06:11 PM
Which was also the reason why he couldn't contact anyone. W&H would've noticed a phonecall, message or letter. It's not like he and Buffy had a daily chat. If Angel would've contacted Buffy for something, it would be something special and be noticed. And I doubt that Angel has the magical power to send a message across the world without W&H noticing it. And of course the little problem that Buffy and her team refused to talk to/help Angel.


Also, what would Buffy have done? The exact same thing as Angel, I'll wager. With the exact same outcome.

Nina
12-03-09, 08:16 PM
Yes, look at 'Chosen'. In that case it was not a 'what if we're punished' question, they knew very well that if they would fail that the whole world would be run over by Turok Hans, and they didn't even make a decent plan. Really, if you blame team Angel for this one ... blame Team Buffy for that one as well.

jj.bsb
12-03-09, 10:49 PM
It wasn't possible to kill the members of the circle somewhere else. They were too strong for that, Angel and his team needed the power of suprise to win. Bring them together or get the isolated somewhere, was out of the question because Team Angel would be toast. So there was no other option than kill them in downtown LA, where they lived and didn't expect something.

It's trap. Angel, as a member, could make a meeting outside of L.A., or he could open a portal, when they're togheter, to another dimension. He done that with the Beast.


Which was also the reason why he couldn't contact anyone. W&H would've noticed a phonecall, message or letter.
They didn't noticed the message he sended to Wesley in the, or the spell he used to explain the gang his plain at W7H, or even their final meeting in Spike's place.


And of course the little problem that Buffy and her team refused to talk to/help Angel.
At that time yes, but sendind Spike, or trying to get Willow could be diferent, specially if the reason was to take down W&H. I don't believe that Angel believesd he would never again talk with Buffy and co.


And about the goverment wanting information because it got this big, that's not something Angel could've forseen.
I agree. Sorry if I couldn't express this correctly :err:.


Besides, the goverment in the Buffyverse were always a master in denying everything that was not logical. They would probably have some lame story to explain the big crater and weird looking persons.
Yeah, this worked very fine, till now, when all the monsters and cities going to hell becaming mainstream.

ETA.: Oh, I don't say that Buffy had a wonderfull idea (she could have asked Willow to do that sun spell from Triangle ), but at least she put Angel in alert as a second front.

Nina
12-03-09, 11:09 PM
It's trap. Angel, as a member, could make a meeting outside of L.A., or he could open a portal, when they're togheter, to another dimension. He done that with the Beast.
The Beast was one powerful creature and there were 12 (or 13) powerful members of the circle. They would've noticed it when they went missing one by one and team Angel can't beat them all together.


They didn't noticed the message he sended to Wesley in the, or the spell he used to explain the gang his plain at W7H, or even their final meeting in Spike's place.
Which were small things, he knew where they were and they were in the same building. He had no idea where Buffy was, and europe is not next door. There is a complete different amount of power needed for that. Something Angel doesn't have and again, more magic means a bigger chance to be discovered.


At that time yes, but sendind Spike, or trying to get Willow could be diferent, specially if the reason was to take down W&H. I don't believe that Angel believesd he would never again talk with Buffy and co.
He couldn't reach Willow (Shells) and sending Spike away would blown the cover without a question. Contacting Willow would be noticed as well. Begging team Buffy to talk to them would mean the end of the plan and their lives.



ETA.: Oh, I don't say that Buffy had a wonderfull idea (she could have asked Willow to do that sun spell from Triangle ), but at least she put Angel in alert as a second front.

It sounded more as a way to get him out, if the Turok Hans would've got killed 30 slayers, a witch, a vampire and a group of trained humans. Than I doubt that Angel, his three human friends and a karaoke demon would've stopped them. No way that they were a decent second front. She put Angel in alert, but he was right there in front of her, knowing that the fight was coming. He went to Sunnydale, and with that he found out about the fight. Which is a complete different situation from Angel in NFA, when he had no idea where Buffy was ... only that she didn't want to talk to him anymore and any sign of a plan would've destroyed everything.

vampmogs
13-03-09, 02:01 AM
Getting the Circle together somewhere is a bad idea. Angel already explained that together they were too powerful and the gang wouldn't stand a chance, it's why they attacked them all separately.

I think this situation is a lot like ‘Chosen’ and how the amulet destroyed all of Sunnydale. What if all the citizens hadn’t already left town (and there’s probably some that hadn’t?). Are we going to blame the Scoobies if they all died in that crater? It was unforeseeable, unexpected and therefore it wouldn’t be their fault.

NileQT87
13-03-09, 02:26 AM
Well, we know that there were people in the crater, because Amy and Warren were EATING THEM.

Is Buffy then responsible for people who decided not to leave and ended up getting cannibalized by Amy and Warren?

It's the same as blaming Angel for some emotional scars on the L.A. populace for what W&H did (though they certainly are far more wiser now). The difference is that L.A. denizens got a second chance. Those buried in the Hellmouth didn't.

Come to think of it, W&H or their ex-employees are responsible for both Hell-A and the Hellmouth collapsing (probably Lindsey & Eve--Lindsey was the only one ever interested in bringing Spike to L.A. to make Angel doubt himself--the Black Thorn show no interest in Spike--and Eve comments that the amulet might not have been meant for Angel).

jj.bsb
13-03-09, 04:31 PM
The Beast was one powerful creature and there were 12 (or 13) powerful members of the circle. They would've noticed it when they went missing one by one

It could had being done like in their attack night. Everyone take one of the members to one kind of Illyria's army dimension/Lindsey hell/shrimp world.


and team Angel can't beat them all together.
Maybe not but with the help of 100 slayers and a powerfull witch...


Which were small things, he knew where they were and they were in the same building.
I don't think the message Angel send had same kind of distance limit and a scription in a magic book seems something that could have take Willow and Giles as a nice targets. To me, both of them would nicely agree to join against the Circle, after being informed of the situation.


He had no idea where Buffy was, and europe is not next door.
He knew her faker (sorry forgett the right term) was in Italy with Andrew. Willow was In Brazil and he had Giles phone number. It's not like he needed Drogyn to smell everyone.


There is a complete different amount of power needed for that. Something Angel doesn't have and again, more magic means a bigger chance to be discovered.
That was what I believed, till he send the message to Wesley, bespell his office in a way that even W&H couldn't realize. Even some humans as Wesley and Giles, sometimes showed borroed powers. And, IMHO, the easiest way to be discovered was having a meet in Spike's place.


He couldn't reach Willow (Shells)
At that time. Willow won't spend the rest of her life in a diferent plan/dimension.


and sending Spike away would blown the cover without a question.
Not if he had faired/ expulsed him after the fake fight that Hamilton saw. He not even needed to meet Spike again - "Spike, go find Buffy and tell her we will need some huge help!"


Contacting Willow would be noticed as well. Begging team Buffy to talk to them would mean the end of the plan and their lives.
I really didn't see why. he had done looser things to talk "uncovered" with his team and things gone well.


It sounded more as a way to get him out, if the Turok Hans would've got killed 30 slayers, a witch, a vampire and a group of trained humans.
At least was a second group. not better than a bright little sun, or Buffy taking one more tip of demon juice from the Shadowmen (Gohan! Even Cord acepted to becames part demon to help Angel!)


Than I doubt that Angel, his three human friends and a karaoke demon would've stopped them. No way that they were a decent second front.
Yeah, I never will put the alone to avoid an Apocalypse. :D


I think this situation is a lot like ‘Chosen’ and how the amulet destroyed all of Sunnydale. What if all the citizens hadn’t already left town (and there’s probably some that hadn’t?). Are we going to blame the Scoobies if they all died in that crater? It was unforeseeable, unexpected and therefore it wouldn’t be their fault.

It's the same as blaming Angel for some emotional scars on the L.A. populace for what W&H did (though they certainly are far more wiser now). The difference is that L.A. denizens got a second chance. Those buried in the Hellmouth didn't.
Good questions. I think that's the reason we needed some groups investigating all of this. If the stories are going to an real world level I wanna a little bit of reality. I wanna be able to blame Angel and his team for HelL.A, and other people showing up in an iquerity saying that if he's guilt of A Buffy should be guilt of B.

Nina
13-03-09, 08:26 PM
Again, there was no way to contact team Buffy without the knowledge of W&H. Especially not if they wanted to tell team Buffy the plan. And I don't even speak about the whole slayer gang entering LA. W&H would notice that without a question. So no chance that the members of the circle could be beaten by the small gang in LA and no way that they could get help from the outside without blowing their cover.

Giles refused to even consider helping Angel and his team, Andrew is not helpful either (remember how he brings in a dangerous guy just to provocate Angel and Spike) and that's it. Buffy doesn't even bother to let Angel know where she was, neither did Faith, Willow or any other team member. Also a group of random slayers will never help two vampires who are working for W&H. He couldn't get help, nor could he get the members of the circle outside. Even if you manage to lock them all up in another dimension, the LA punishment stays and W&H opens portals without any problem. Those demons had to be killed at the same time before any of the big powers or one of them noticing what was happening.

Vampire in Rug
13-03-09, 09:19 PM
Nina speaks the truth. Banishing the Circle members to another dimension creates exactly the same problems that killing them makes (the HelL-A punishment) only by banishing them to another dimension, it becomes possible to recover them. The only way to destroy the circle once and for all was to attack each member seperatly, and simultaniously which is what they did. Sending them to another dimension is not only more risky, and more difficult to pull off, but it would result in the exact same punishment. The only other alternative to HelL-A would have been to allow the Circle of the Black Thorne to continue existing.

As for approaching Buffy to enlist her help, there's no way of doing that without the Senior Partners knowing. Hamilton was following Angel's every move and any way of contacting the scoobies (phone, email, magic) can easily be tracked. Willow was apparently in another dimension at the time, "Buffy" herself was (to Angel's knowlege) partying in Rome with the Immortal and Giles was being difficult to get through to. Getting ahold of the scoobies just wasn't an option.

jj.bsb
16-03-09, 05:29 PM
Again, there was no way to contact team Buffy without the knowledge of W&H.
Angel spoke his plan in his W&H office in front Hamilton, he sended a message to Wesley in the same building in their's book and made the final meeting with the fang gang at Spike's place. I can't see sites more watched by the partners. If he could do all of this, right in the eyes of the Senior Partners I don't understand why he couldn't contact Buffy. Also, Spike could have done that easily.


And I don't even speak about the whole slayer gang entering LA. W&H would notice that without a question.
They should have done it the same way the first plan: One combined attack, at hte same time. Just, in this case, the fight would have taken place in another dimension (to me, the Illyria's lair was perfect). Buffy team didn't needed go to L.A. They should just go the rendezvous point at the right time.


Giles refused to even consider helping Angel and his team, Andrew is not helpful either (remember how he brings in a dangerous guy just to provocate Angel and Spike)
Giles refused helping Angel in W&H matters, but IMHO, he should see the things different if it was a Apocalypse prevent against the Circle. And Andrew was hard when he was rescueing the crazy slayer, but becames helpfull in Italy, even lying about the fake Buffy.


Buffy doesn't even bother to let Angel know where she was, neither did Faith, Willow or any other team member.
From Just Rewards, about where Buffy was: ANGEL: Europe, last I heard from her..
So he has same information about where Buffy was, but she, Willow or Faith didn't needed to say to him every one of their steps. Especially if he has means to find them. And this is not a dating business, but an Apoclypse thing. I can't see Buffy, Willow, Giles, Faith or anyone of the white hats saing no to a battle this size.


Even if you manage to lock them all up in another dimension, the LA punishment stays and W&H opens portals without any problem. Those demons had to be killed at the same time before any of the big powers or one of them noticing what was happening.
Yeah, they should be killed, not locked, however out of L.A. is way better option, and, at no way, do a meeting with the remains members of the figth in the Hyperon alley if he believes: If we do any damage at all, the senior partners are gonna rain hell on us.

Nina
16-03-09, 06:17 PM
Angel spoke his plan in his W&H office in front Hamilton, he sended a message to Wesley in the same building in their's book and made the final meeting with the fang gang at Spike's place. I can't see sites more watched by the partners. If he could do all of this, right in the eyes of the Senior Partners I don't understand why he couldn't contact Buffy. Also, Spike could have done that easily.
That was already hard enough. The little trick with Wesley's book wouldn't have worked with Buffy or any other scooby because they had no idea where they should look for that symbol or what to do with it. Besides Angel probably doesn't have the power to send a message like that around the world. And he knew that Wesley was looking in some books, he had no idea which of the scoobies were looking in which books.

About them talking under Hamilton's nose, it's not weird that they are there in his office. Wesley, Gunn, Spike and Lorne are in Angel's office all the time. Willow, Buffy and the other scoobies aren't. Hamilton would suspect bad things if a whole bunch of new people would've entered the office, especially when there was something suspicious before that. Besides, it's too dangerous. Angel can take those 4 people but not a bunch of slayers or a super strong witch and he needed to keep on his cover of corrupted CEO of W&H.

And like I said, Spike doesn't know where to go and W&H would have noticed it and never let their attention slip. The only way Angel and his team could do this, is because W&H didn't suspect anything. Spike or any other teammember contacting the scoobies would.



They should have done it the same way the first plan: One combined attack, at hte same time. Just, in this case, the fight would have taken place in another dimension (to me, the Illyria's lair was perfect). Buffy team didn't needed go to L.A. They should just go the rendezvous point at the right time.
At first, not one of the characters has the power to kidnap all those powerful creatures and themselves at the same time in another dimension. Also the punishment stays ... LA will go to hell anyway because that was the punishment ... the innocent people would burn. And last, even if they had the power to do it, the moment the members are kidnapped they notice something and there is a big chance that they can team up because they are in the same empty dimension.


Giles refused helping Angel in W&H matters, but IMHO, he should see the things different if it was a Apocalypse prevent against the Circle. And Andrew was hard when he was rescueing the crazy slayer, but becames helpfull in Italy, even lying about the fake Buffy.
How was Andrew helpfull in Italy, al he did was making fun of Angel and Spike and lying to them. And remember that the circle of the black thorn needed to think that Angel was evil, not one of the scoobies seems to trust Angel like team Angel does and they will probably kill him instead of helping ... because team Angel can't tell the plan without being caught.



From Just Rewards, about where Buffy was: ANGEL: Europe, last I heard from her..
So he has same information about where Buffy was, but she, Willow or Faith didn't needed to say to him every one of their steps. Especially if he has means to find them. And this is not a dating business, but an Apoclypse thing. I can't see Buffy, Willow, Giles, Faith or anyone of the white hats saing no to a battle this size.
I never get that argument, Angel needs to kow where Buffy is because she said something about being in Europe? It's not like Europe is a small town with 1000 people. Angel clearly has no clue where any of the scoobies are (except Andrew). Big chance that Buffy and her team went to Giles' house after the battle in Sunnydale and she called him from there ... not knowing where she would go to. After that she didn't bother to tell Angel her new adress. Which is why Angel has Giles' number but no clue where Buffy or Willow is. So why blaming Angel? Because he didn't tried every phonenumber in Europe?


Yeah, they should be killed, not locked, however out of L.A. is way better option, and, at no way, do a meeting with the remains members of the figth in the Hyperon alley if he believes: If we do any damage at all, the senior partners are gonna rain hell on us.

LA is too big to escape, they couldn't leave the heart of LA because W&H was too quick. So they had a meeting in the alley to be together not because it's the best place to have an epic fight. And like I already pointed out, it's impossible to get the members out of the city and W&H would still have done what they did because the punishment wasn't locking team Angel up in hell, but punishing the people they fight for. Killing people who decided to die is not a punishment, hurting the innocents is. So LA would go to hell anyway.

Vampire in Rug
17-03-09, 07:12 PM
As for sharing the plan with the scoobies, I'd like to point out that Angel shared the plan in his office, a place where it's not unusual to find Wesley, Gunn, Spike and Lorne. It would be very unusual to find the scoobies in there. Any meetings, phone calls or emails to the scoobies would be watched very closely by the Senior Partners. The only reason he was able to tell his own team was due to a cloaking spell and even then Hamilton was still suspicious.

Angel did not know where to find Buffy or Willow, period. Had he tried to contact Buffy or speak to her in person, he would find himself speaking to the decoy. Or not, seeing as how the decoy would have made a point of avoiding Angel. He didn't know where Willow was and he was misinformed as to where Buffy was. And if Giles wouldn't help when there was an Old One on the loose, what makes you think he would help taking down the Black Thorne? We know that the scoobies had thier hands full at that time and the only opportunity that Angel had to tell his own people was by acting evil, forcing them to confront him and then to put up a cloaking spell. Not only is it pretty much impossible for Angel to interact with the scoobs, but even if he did it's entirely possible that they would have killed him the moment he started acting evil. Plus the more people you're dealing with the harder it is the get them all in a room together to put up the cloaking spell.

oneslikeme
18-03-09, 02:00 PM
From Just Rewards, about where Buffy was: ANGEL: Europe, last I heard from her..
So he has same information about where Buffy was, but she, Willow or Faith didn't needed to say to him every one of their steps. Especially if he has means to find them. And this is not a dating business, but an Apoclypse thing. I can't see Buffy, Willow, Giles, Faith or anyone of the white hats saing no to a battle this size.

just to point out, angel does not know where buffy is. he went to italy, where andrew told them she was dating the immortal. then in the season 8 comics, buffy tells us that is a decoy buffy and the immortal was andrew's idea.

angel only THINKS he knows where buffy is when he says that buffy is in europe. she could have been in antarctica for all he knew.

NileQT87
18-03-09, 02:31 PM
"HEARD FROM HER" being the key words. He didn't say... 'Last I heard from Giles/Andrew/etc...' What he didn't know was what country. But he knew she had gone to Europe because he heard it "from her". Europe isn't quite as specific as Scotland or Rome, Italy. Obviously, he did talk to her, but she didn't tell him much other than she was fine and in Europe.

vampmogs
18-03-09, 02:36 PM
'Conviction' takes place only 16 days after 'Chosen' so Buffy wouldn't have even established the slayer HQ in such a short amount of time anyway. So even if she had told him at the time exactly where she was in Europe, by the time ‘Power Play’ came around it’s extremely unlikely she’d have been in the same place.

oneslikeme
18-03-09, 04:36 PM
"HEARD FROM HER" being the key words. He didn't say... 'Last I heard from Giles/Andrew/etc...' What he didn't know was what country. But he knew she had gone to Europe because he heard it "from her". Europe isn't quite as specific as Scotland or Rome, Italy. Obviously, he did talk to her, but she didn't tell him much other than she was fine and in Europe.

"just rewards" is the episode in which he heard from her. this is only the second episode of the last season.

"girl in question" is the 20th episode of that season, the one in which he believes her to be in italy.


SPIKE
About Buffy. How did you know she was in trouble?

ANGEL
I got word.

SPIKE
From who?

ANGEL
A source.

SPIKE
You've been spying on her?!

ANGEL
I just wanted to make sure she was all right.

whether he heard it straight from her or from someone else is irrelevant. he believes at this time that she is in italy, and buffy tells us in season 8 that this was a decoy. therefore, he does not know where she is. the "heard from her" episode is very old news. more importantly, the fact that he has someone watching her proves that he is not in touch with her anymore.