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View Full Version : Spoilers!!!! Krueger Talks About #24



Sosa lola
19-02-09, 10:09 PM
Comic Book Resources > CBR News: Jim Krueger Slays Vampires Buffy-Style (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=20112)

“This is all about Faith and Giles and is a direct sequel to the Brian K. Vaughn run from earlier in the series,” teased Krueger. “Brian and Joss did a great job of putting those two together. And by suggesting that in the future, they would be helping slayers find their way. Of course, that way is sort of off-track now that it’s considered cool to be a vampire.”


"Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Season Eight" volumes 1-2
Krueger agreed Giles and Faith are unusual bedmates, but loves their synergy on the printed page. “They’re certainly coming from two different worlds. Faith is from a dysfunctional broken family with loads of betrayal under her belt. And bad sex, now that we’re speaking of things under the belt while Giles comes from a prim and proper world of academia and rules.

“But this war they’ve been drafted into has changed them. Giles’ hands are dirty. He’s killed people in the war. Faith has had to become better than she ever was. To a certain degree, these two individuals have come a little closer to the center to find, in the midst of their fight against vampires and demons, a friendship and strange sense of family.

“Both Giles and Faith have sort of had to deal with the fact that they don’t fit their prospective molds,” continued Krueger. “Faith is not quite the model slayer. And Giles is not the model Watcher. And so, they fit together. They didn’t fit together at the beginning of the series, but the growth of these two individuals has created this perfect partnership, I think.”



Asked to tease what readers will see in his anticipated one-shot, Krueger revealed, “Now that it’s cool to be a vampire, it’s very uncool to be a slayer. And as a result, many slayers have sort of given up on being chosen. This is the story that deals with a place referred to as Slayer Sanctuary, where a number of slayers have gone to hide.

“From there, Faith and Giles go to investigate, and some really bad things happen.”

KingofCretins
19-02-09, 10:15 PM
Wait a second... is he saying that Faith and Giles are lovers? That... really just doesn't work.

On a less sickening note, I like the idea of a Slayer Sanctuary. Undoubtedly it's too inviting a target for Twilight, for vampires, for an angry mob.

Nina
19-02-09, 10:28 PM
Faith/Giles together :s somehow that feels wrong because of her daddy/parent issues and him losing his 'daughter'. I didn't saw that coming, not really.


Poor girls, hiding because they are slayers. It's an interesting idea.

Bittersweettwit
19-02-09, 10:41 PM
Personally I think he was playing with fans and was simply referring to the idea that it is strange for both Faith and Giles to get along the way that they do by this point. After all for the rest of the discussion he talks about how both individuals have developed in order to reach 'a strange friendship and sense of family'

If however, he was being literal in what he was saying I have to agree with everyone else who has pointed out so far that because of their history and lets be honest the huge age difference it would be a bit odd to see :lol:

vampmogs
19-02-09, 10:43 PM
Are we supposed to take "bed mates" literally?

He says they have a sense of family further down in the comments.

Although didn't people speculate after 'NFFY' that's the direction they thought it was heading?

EDIT: Oops Vampmaster beat me to it :)

Hey well we were all saying that Giles needed a new love interest... :roll:

Sosa lola
19-02-09, 10:44 PM
Where does he say that they become a couple? I've read it again and he seems to be saying that they're together as a team. Also, "in the midst of their fight against vampires and demons, a friendship and strange sense of family."

vampmogs
19-02-09, 10:45 PM
I think it was the "unusual bed mates" comment. But I dunno, I think he's just trying to say "couple" or "team." It doesn't really jibe with what he says further down, but it is an interesting term to use.

Sosa lola
19-02-09, 10:47 PM
I think it was the "unusual bed mates" comment. But I dunno, I think he's just trying to say "couple" or "team." It doesn't really jibe with what he says further down, but it is an interesting term to use.

I don't know why I've read it as roommates :lol: Hmmmm interesting, guess we'll wait and see.

KingofCretins
19-02-09, 10:50 PM
I was reacted to "bad sex", not the bedmates comment. "Faith is from a dysfunctional broken family with loads of betrayal under her belt. And bad sex, now that we’re speaking of things under the belt while Giles comes from a prim and proper world of academia and rules."

If you parse that out, we're talking about Faith having "bad sex" under her belt, and the next image being a reminder that Giles comes from prim and proper world of academia and rules.

vampmogs
19-02-09, 10:50 PM
Well remember if Faith had known they came this young and cute she would have requested a transfer ;)

Seriously the age thing doesn't bother me at all, as Buffy said once, her boyfriend had a bicentennial. My issues with it would be the teacher/student role which is why I always felt uncomfortable with the idea of Angel/Faith. But then they did say they were partners at the end so maybe not?

Ah k, I see your point King but who knows? I'm just not sure we should jump to conclusions quite yet because the comments kind of hint at it being a platonic family vibe as well.

Enisy
19-02-09, 11:18 PM
I was sure he was joking when I first read the interview, but now I'm having second thoughts... Gossi on Whedonesque said that "they were running some promos on Google Adsense which tended to indicate Faith and Giles are having of the sex". If so, wow. Talk about gutsy.

KingofCretins
19-02-09, 11:51 PM
Gutsy... ridiculous... one of those. Honestly, Hank will jump back up as "best father figure" to Buffy if Giles is sleeping with Faith. How totally skanky, for Giles to make Faith the nominal "stepmom" to BUFFY and DAWN, to totally destroy his paternal credibility with the entire gang.

vampmogs
20-02-09, 12:14 AM
I really don't think it's that bad or how it makes Hank better than Giles? Hank ran off with his secretary and didn't even contact Buffy after Joyce died, Giles sleeping with Faith doesn't even compare.

Considering some of the people the Scoobies have slept with in their time.. Buffy/soulless Spike, Xander/unremorseful ex vengeance demon, Willow/snake lady.. Giles/Faith doesn’t really compare.

Giles isn't their parental figure anymore, if anything Dawn considers Willow in that position, not Giles and I really doubt Buffy views him in that way anymore, or that he views himself in that role. After he left in season six the gang moved on from that, they got used to having that "hairy eyeball" and I don't think he's ever went back into that role again. Sure he's still their advisor and a person they can turn to for support but I think they're long past viewing him as a parental figure.

I think it's a massive stretch to say that anyone Giles sleeps with becomes a "nominal step mum" to Buffy or Dawn, when did we ever get that impression with Olivia? And as if Giles has to contemplate that before getting into a relationship with someone, he's not in anyway related to Buffy, he's in no way her stepfather.. he can sleep with whomever he wants without having to worry about some completely fantastical made up role of them somehow suddenly being "Buffy's step mum."

NileQT87
20-02-09, 12:16 AM
I still remember when I first mentioned the Jossverse comics to my mom and I told her about the arc with Giles and Faith, she was, like, 'Are they together?' and I pretty much had about the most incredulous look on my face you could think of. Just no. No. No. And more no.

She hasn't even seen an issue and she might have gotten it just from the fact that they had an arc together.

And yep, I've seen those ads and thinking that they were sounding a little weird in the coupley sense, but I just wrote it off.

I mean, if there's any characters that would go for it, it'd probably be Faith or Anya (probably the closest to a non-Jenny/Olivia character who has ever shown remote interest in Giles), but... If Joss really wanted to stick Faith in a relationship with a much older guy, he should have sent her over to AtS (actually, take your pick of every guy on that show). It would be a lot better received.

Though it would be nice if Giles finds someone. This just feels like Joss wanted Faith on BtVS to help out the cast list (let's face it, it's kind of lacking other than the main trio--and there is also a female overload), when if he really was bent on putting her in a relationship with a character who people care about (Robin didn't really work), there are other candidates. Spike, for instance, could use a cohort other than Illyria. I hope this isn't the only thing Joss could come up with for Giles, who practically seems ignored this season (unless he is Twilight). There are more interesting things to do with Faith, IMO.

I still think Joss put her on the wrong show. It's like he let IDW take Angel and Spike if Dark Horse could have Faith, even though all three feel more AtS to me. BtVS is the show that got left without a lot of strong players that actually belong there. Faith felt tacked on the end of BtVS season 7, too. She had more going on in AtS season 4, IMO. You could tell she would have preferred the company in L.A. over being sent to help in Sunnydale and get further mistreated by Buffy, who still hasn't acknowledged her growth with Angel and Wesley. And season 8 seems to be avoiding the fact that Faith has closer ties (friendly ties) to L.A. than the old Sunnydale crew.

KingofCretins
20-02-09, 12:21 AM
It's gross in ways I can't even articulate. It makes Giles That Guy... That Guy that dates his daughter's or niece's college roommate and then brings her round as a date. And yeah, it does make him worse than Hank... because Hank didn't run away to Spain with Faith. Might as well sleep with Willow, or Cordy, or steal Anya from Xander at the Magic Box. It is just as nasty as it could possibly be, a complete violation of his trust with the young men and women who HE KNOWS see him as a father of sorts (including Dawn, that's just out to lunch to suggest that they don't).

Not only would Buffy freak, she'd be right to freak, and I wouldn't blame her if she A) decked him, and B) never spoke to him *again*. Never mind that it would completely end any chance of Buffy and Faith reconciling.

vampmogs
20-02-09, 12:29 AM
It's gross in ways I can't even articulate. It makes Giles That Guy... That Guy that dates his daughter's or niece's college roommate and then brings her round as a date.

I'm sorry but I just really disagree. Firstly I think there's ignorance in the idea that the age gap between them automatically makes it gross. People can find love regardless of their age, it isn't always "gross" or yuck and as I said, it hardly compares to some of Buffy's more questionable bed partners does it?


And yeah, it does make him worse than Hank... because Hank didn't run away to Spain with Faith.

No he just didn't give a stuff that his ex wife had just died and that his two daughters were dealing with it all on their own. He didn't even bother to call after their *mother had died.* It does not compare.


Might as well sleep with Willow, or Cordy, or steal Anya from Xander at the Magic Box. It is just as nasty as it could possibly be, a complete violation of his trust with the young men and women who HE KNOWS see him as a father of sorts (including Dawn, that's just out to lunch to suggest that they don't).

Giles is nasty because he and Faith bond for all the reasons Krueger articulates very well above? Hardly. Buffy cut Giles off, Buffy cut Faith off, she has no right or say in what the two of them do in their personal time. She can't have it both ways. She can't decide to just toss them both into the garbage and decide she won't have anything to do with them anymore then feel offended that they don't think of her first if they want to get into a relationship.

But given Allie's comments I doubt it. He already said that whilst things are rough they aren't things Buffy/Giles can't overcome and suggested that they probably will overcome their differences this season, so if Giles/Faith does happen I guess this is included.

Enisy
20-02-09, 12:29 AM
I think it's a massive stretch to say that anyone Giles sleeps with becomes a "nominal step mum" to Buffy or Dawn, when did we ever get that impression with Olivia? And as if Giles has to contemplate that before getting into a relationship with someone, he's not in anyway related to Buffy, he's in no way her stepfather.. he can sleep with whomever he wants without having to worry about some completely fantastical made up role of them somehow suddenly being "Buffy's step mum."

But he does worry about it -- or at least used to. See Restless.

Vamps, as much as I love your posts, you lose come credibility in regards to Season 8 when you praise every issue, rebuff every criticism and defend every creative choice. It can have failings and still be a good season -- in fact, one should expect it to.

vampmogs
20-02-09, 12:35 AM
But he does worry about it -- or at least used to. See Restless.

Yeah that's before he left for England so she could grow up, before Buffy had decided Giles had taught her everything she needed to know, before Buffy kicked Giles to the curb.



Vamps, as much as I love your posts, you lose come credibility in regards to Season 8 when you praise every issue, rebuff every criticism and defend every creative choice. It can have failings and still be a good season -- in fact, one should expect it to.

I defend it because I don't see anything wrong with it. I did- I looked over 'No Future For You' and now I don't. It hardly compares to Buffy sleeping with an evil unremorseful murderer, Willow using Kennedy as a way to contact and have sex with a snake demon or even arguably Xander tumbling around with an unremorseful Anya. Giles can’t sleep with Faith because of an age gap? Please. When has it stopped anyone else in the past?

I defend season eight because I love it, I am enjoying all of their creative decisions so far. I don't have any secret agenda, why would I? Just because you may find it a crappy way to take the story doesn't mean people loose "credibility" if they don't as well, the season works for me, I'm one of the lucky ones. I praise every issue because I've loved every issue, if you think that makes me loose credibility I couldn't care a less. I'm not seeking your approval and I‘m not going to criticise something for the hell of it just so it appears I’m being tough on the season, when there’s something I think is worthy of criticising I’ll criticise it, I won’t do it for anyone else’s benefit.

KingofCretins
20-02-09, 12:37 AM
No he just didn't give a stuff that his ex wife had just died and that his two daughters were dealing with it all on their own. He didn't even bother to call after their *mother had died.* It does not compare.

You're right. Sleeping with one of his surrogate daughter's peers, alternate friend and rival, is a helluva lot worse. You're assuming, without any actual evidence, that Hank just up and decided he didn't feel like going to Sunnydale. No text to that effect.

It's not just an age difference... if Giles had some random chippy on the side who was Buffy's age, it wouldn't be quite the same thing.


Giles is nasty because he and Faith bond for all the reasons Krueger articulates very well above? Hardly. Buffy cut Giles off, Buffy cut Faith off, she has no right or say in what the two of them do in their personal time. She can't have it both ways. She can't decide to just toss them both into the garbage and decide she won't have anything to do with them anymore then feel offended that they don't think of her first if they want to get into a relationship.

Nothing Buffy can say or feel would justify that if Giles actually cares about *her*. That's all there is to it.

You seem to be treating this as though two people can bond working together, any two people, and suddenly that makes a romance appropriate. That's absurd, man. What if it was Dawn, then? Here in Season 8, no curse, but she and Buffy have a fight and she goes off to work with Giles and they start sleeping together. That's okay, too?

Seriously, if Giles and Faith are sleeping together, it would go up in the heirarchy of worst plot developments in the history of the Buffyverse, right up there with "Empty Places".

vampmogs
20-02-09, 12:48 AM
You're right. Sleeping with one of his surrogate daughter's peers, alternate friend and rival, is a helluva lot worse. You're assuming, without any actual evidence, that Hank just up and decided he didn't feel like going to Sunnydale. No text to that effect.

He didn't go, I'm sorry but what possible excuse does he have not to go to Sunnydale and be there for his two daughters after their mother had just died and as far as he's aware, they have *nobody.* And it's not just not going to Sunnydale, Buffy says it in 'Forever' he hadn't even spoken to her since Buffy left him a message telling him that Joyce had died. His actions are inexcusable.


It's not just an age difference... if Giles had some random chippy on the side who was Buffy's age, it wouldn't be quite the same thing.

I agree that it is going to cause issues between Giles/Buffy if it does happen, as I said "she's going to loose it" but just because she will doesn't mean I think she has a right to; at least not anymore. She cut Giles off this season, she wants nothing to do with him, IMO Giles shouldn't revolve his life around her anymore. She's treat him like absolute crap, arguably for two seasons now. I wasn’t thrilled with how she treat him in season seven either, pretty much forcing his hand into doing what he did in ‘LMPTM.’ Why should Giles worry about what Buffy will think when Buffy doesn’t worry about him?


You seem to be treating this as though two people can bond working together, any two people, and suddenly that makes a romance appropriate. That's absurd, man. What if it was Dawn, then? Here in Season 8, no curse, but she and Buffy have a fight and she goes off to work with Giles and they start sleeping together. That's okay, too?

Why are you ok with Xander/Dawn and not Giles/Faith? From what I can tell you get shippy vibes from them because they've *bonded* and we all know that it would piss Buffy off as well, but you don't care? Why the double standards? It could really anger Buffy, possibly ruin her relationship with either Xander or Dawn or both but you support it?

Two people can bond working together and it doesn't have to become romantic, but it can- like anything in life? Still not seeing how Xander/Dawn is more believable when the only evidence anyone has to say they feel shippy vibes between them is through scenes showing them *bond* and have this in common. It’s the basic foundation for any romantic relationship starting up?

Enisy
20-02-09, 12:49 AM
Vamps, I guess I just have a difficult time grasping how, halfway through a very divisive and controversial season, your sole criticisms can be "not enough Giles" and "Warren's death should have been clarified within the text". Like, I could name a whole bunch of things that rub me the wrong way in the first half of Season 5, and that is the best season Whedon has ever produced, in my eyes. But I guess that's just the way I'm wired, and that's why I'm more willing to pay attention to King's or Maggie's or Pat's pro-Season 8 arguments, since they always call a spade a spade, as I see it. (And I don't think Season 8 is "a crappy way to take the story", for the record. I'm rather enjoying it as of late.)


Yeah that's before he left for England so she could grow up, before Buffy had decided Giles had taught her everything she needed to know, before Buffy kicked Giles to the curb.

There's a reason the episode where "Buffy kicks Giles to the curb" is called Lies My Parents Told Me. It never stopped being a father/daughter dynamic, regardless of their fallouts.

KingofCretins
20-02-09, 12:54 AM
He didn't go, I'm sorry but what possible excuse does he have not to go to Sunnydale and be there for his two daughters after their mother had just died and as far as he's aware, they have *nobody.* And it's not just not going to Sunnydale, Buffy says it in 'Forever' he hadn't even spoken to her since Buffy left him a message telling him that Joyce had died. His actions are inexcusable.

"Forever" is set probably just a couple days, if that, after "The Body".


...she wants nothing to do with him...

No text at all.


She's treat him like absolute crap, arguably for two seasons now. I wasn’t thrilled with how she treat him in season seven either, pretty much forcing his hand into doing what he did in ‘LMPTM.’ Why should Giles worry about what Buffy will think when Buffy doesn’t worry about him?

Isn't he the grown-up? You're giving him license that most people stop taking long before they reach even Buffy's age. He can do whatever he wants because he doesn't like Buffy's attitude?


Why are you ok with Xander/Dawn and not Giles/Faith? From what I can tell you get shippy vibes from them because they've *bonded* and we all know that it would piss Buffy off as well, but you don't care? Why the double standards? It could really anger Buffy, possibly ruin her relationship with either Xander or Dawn or both but you support it?

Probably because Xander and Dawn are about as far apart in age as Riley and Buffy? There's no double standard here. The anger and betrayal Buffy would feel about Giles sleeping with Faith would be *exponentially* greater than her discomfort with Xander or Dawn (who, incidentally, would almost certainly not even go forward without some tacit approval from Buffy and *regard for her feelings*).

vampmogs
20-02-09, 01:04 AM
Vamps, I guess I just have a difficult time grasping how, halfway through a very divisive and controversial season, your sole criticisms can be "not enough Giles" and "Warren's death should have been clarified within the text".

So? Like I said the season is working for me and I don't have to defend that to anyone? I was exactly the same way about season three, basically can't fault anything in the season, lucky me I got exactly what I wanted and I'm not going to feel bad about that.

Besides there not my only criticism, I've already said it was lazy writing to have Andrew tell the crap about Xander/Dracula so they didn't have to come up with a plausible back-story themselves, I've said it was lazy writing to not explain in the text why the slayers could man the sub that 'After These Messages' was a very flawed issue even if it made me feel all nostalgic. I admitted that Mecha Dawn was ridiculous and that I've always hated the idea of robots in the show, I'm just not going to rant about it when I've hated it since Ted's reveal. But thanks for making me bring all that stuff up, how dare I focus on all the things I love rather than the things I hate, as if we don't get enough negativity around this place...

Much like Wolfie I'll judge the season when I can review it in it's entirety, storylines that are working for me could very much fail for me if they aren't handled in a certain way, like Buffy's characters arc this season. Are they going to tackle her issues once and for all in a satisfying way and get her over this hump or is it going to be a repeat of her fake epiphanies like in season six or seven? I won't know until it's finished, I just like what I see so far.

If you feel like I’ve gotten some implausible “hidden agenda” where I’m too afraid to say what I’m really feeling don’t beat around the bush and just come out and say it. But I’d love for you to explain why I would be motivated to do this and *lie* about what I’m really thinking? Which is basically what you’re accusing me of.


There's a reason the episode where "Buffy kicks Giles to the curb" is called Lies My Parents Told Me. It's still a father/daughter dynamic.

I was talking about Buffy cutting Giles off this season, as the prologues at the beginning of the issues have said.


"Forever" is set probably just a couple days, if that, after "The Body".

It takes a good father "a couple of days" to phone back his daughter after her mother has died? We all know Hank has been retconned into a very bad father since season two, but he is what he is now.


No text at all.

The prologue at the beginning of many issues has said that she's "cut Giles off" you don't do that to someone you want to have contact with. How else do you interpret it?


Isn't he the grown-up? You're giving him license that most people stop taking long before they reach even Buffy's age. He can do whatever he wants because he doesn't like Buffy's attitude?

He can do whatever he wants without thinking about Buffy first because she isn't his boss, does exactly the same thing regarding him and has cut him off completely. I'd love to hear an explanation as to why Giles should be making decisions about *his life* based around a girl who has cut him out of her life? If they were still close then I'd agree that it was wrong for him to do this, but they aren't.


Probably because Xander and Dawn are about as far apart in age as Riley and Buffy?

You just said above that age isn't your issue here? That Giles could bring back some "random chippy" on the side? And again, why is age an issue for Giles/Faith but it's perfectly ok for Buffy to have relationships with Angel and Spike who are hundreds of years older than her, or Xander/Anya when Anya is at least *one thousand.* That makes no sense.


There's no double standard here. The anger and betrayal Buffy would feel about Giles sleeping with Faith would be *exponentially* greater than her discomfort with Xander or Dawn (who, incidentally, would almost certainly not even go forward without some tacit approval from Buffy and *regard for her feelings*).

You don't know that? What makes you think Dawn would be so concerned about Buffy's feelings when all season she's felt as if Buffy doesn't care about hers? There's no textual evidence that says Xander/Dawn couldn't go ahead without Buffy's approval anymore than there is right now that Giles/Faith are actually an item. Your just making that up based on how you feel the characters would act.

Xander/Dawn would create Buffy discomfort, she made her feelings on it pretty clear in ‘All the Way.’ And yet you’d go for it- based on the fact it wouldn’t cause her “as much” discomfort as Giles/Faith? I still feel that this is double standards. Either way Buffy is going to feel hurt, possibly betrayed.

Enisy
20-02-09, 01:17 AM
If you feel like I’ve gotten some implausible “hidden agenda” where I’m too afraid to say what I’m really feeling don’t beat around the bush and just come out and say it. But I’d love for you to explain why I would be motivated to do this and *lie* about what I’m really thinking? Which is basically what you’re accusing me of.

I don't think you're lying; but I think you might be overcompensating. (Your version of "focusing on the things you love rather than the things you hate", because there's "enough negativity around this place".) At any rate, key phrases are "as I see it" and "that's just the way I'm wired". I'm sure other people dig your pro-Season 8 posts, as I dig your posts about other subjects.


I was talking about Buffy cutting Giles off this season, as the prologues at the beginning of the issues have said.

Ah. In that case, I agree with King.

KingofCretins
20-02-09, 01:27 AM
It takes a good father "a couple of days" to phone back his daughter after her mother has died? We all know Hank has been retconned into a very bad father since season two, but he is what he is now.

Actually, he wasn't retconned until that very moment -- missing Buffy's birthday is something that can happen to a real father in real life. And you have textual confirmation somewhere that Hank had *gotten* that message right away? My mom got a message sent before she lost a good friend a couple days after the fact because the network was slow. After "Forever", is there text to establish that Hank had *no* contact with his daughters? They seemed to have at least some notion that sending Dawn to him would be an available option but that they didn't want to.


The prologue at the beginning of many issues has said that she's "cut Giles off" you don't do that to someone you want to have contact with. How else do you interpret it?

People cut off the people they want to talk to and reconcile with the most quite often. See... every other time Buffy and Giles have had problems, actually.


He can do whatever he wants without thinking about Buffy first because she isn't his boss, does exactly the same thing regarding him and has cut him off completely. I'd love to hear an explanation as to why Giles should be making decisions about *his life* based around a girl who has cut him out of her life? If they were still close then I'd agree that it was wrong for him to do this, but they aren't.

He doesn't have to make all his decisions based on Buffy to avoid making a decision that is an open kick in Buffy's face and spit in her eye and stab in her back.


You just said above that age isn't your issue here? That Giles could bring back some "random chippy" on the side? And again, why is age an issue for Giles/Faith but it's perfectly ok for Buffy to have relationships with Angel and Spike who are hundreds of years older than her, or Xander/Anya when Anya is at least *one thousand.* That makes no sense.

I said it wasn't "just an age difference".

And when have I *ever* said it was okay for Buffy to have relationships with Angel and Spike? Anya is a slightly different situation since she was once again fully mortal.


You don't know that? What makes you think Dawn would be so concerned about Buffy's feelings when all season she's felt as if Buffy doesn't care about hers? There's no textual evidence that says Xander/Dawn couldn't go ahead without Buffy's approval anymore than there is right now that Giles/Faith are actually an item. Your just making that up based on how you feel the characters would act.

No text, no, but some sense of respect for the idea that the characters aren't complete pricks. Xander and Dawn would have to be complete pricks to start something up with no regard for Buffy's feelings. And Giles would be a complete prick for selling out his relationship with the entire Scooby Gang permanently by screwing one of their own, albeit the black sheep.

vampmogs
20-02-09, 01:49 AM
Actually, he wasn't retconned until that very moment -- missing Buffy's birthday is something that can happen to a real father in real life. And you have textual confirmation somewhere that Hank had *gotten* that message right away? My mom got a message sent before she lost a good friend a couple days after the fact because the network was slow. After "Forever", is there text to establish that Hank had *no* contact with his daughters? They seemed to have at least some notion that sending Dawn to him would be an available option but that they didn't want to.

Actually I'd say the "bad father" vibe happened in 'Family' (non-coincidentally one might think) when Buffy/Giles are talking about Dawn and how she's the key and Buffy makes the comment about Hank being in Spain with his secretary and that he isn’t an option.

I’m basically just going to break down my points here and try and explain where I stand with more clarity.

You say;


He doesn't have to make all his decisions based on Buffy to avoid making a decision that is an open kick in Buffy's face and spit in her eye and stab in her back.

But I just can’t agree, not anymore at least. In all honesty when I read this thread and heard of this *possible* news my immediate reaction was concern about the teacher/student vibe. To be perfectly honest I didn’t even take into account Buffy’s feelings beyond any level other than “Buffy will freak!” because I don’t expect Giles to anymore. Which saddens me because Buffy is my favourite character but she just hasn’t “earned” that these days.

To quote Krueger, "To a certain degree, these two individuals have come a little closer to the center to find, in the midst of their fight against vampires and demons, a friendship and strange sense of family" Now I think that’s a fine interpretation of what he believes to be the connection between Giles/Faith and it works completely fine in a purely platonic relationship, which is the vibe I actually got from reading this thread, or as a base point for a future romantic pairing. Honestly, I don’t expect Giles or Faith to give up that bond they feel with one another for Buffy, a girl who’s cut both of them out of her life and who (for both of ours sakes) “has given the impression” she wants nothing more to do with them. I just don’t.

I think we’re expecting too much of Giles who has sacrificed so much in the past for Buffy, to ignore that connection, which Giles finds genuinely hard to find, remember his comments about finding a new friend which was in his opinion “nearly statistically impossible for a man of his age?” when Buffy has given him the impression he’s out of her life for the foreseeable future and has treat him and Faith, in my opinion, pretty terribly. She hasn’t earned the that right for someone to deny themselves that bond (if it is of course a romantic one) when she’s treat them so bad.

That’s why I don’t think Giles or Faith would be terrible to do this, but would be if it had happened a few seasons earlier.


I said it wasn't "just an age difference".

And when have I *ever* said it was okay for Buffy to have relationships with Angel and Spike?

You haven't, but from memory you've never called Buffy the "worst surrogate daughter ever ect" when she’s clearly went against what Giles stood for.


Anya is a slightly different situation since she was once again fully mortal.

But still doesn’t change the fact that she as a lot, and I mean *a lot* of years on Xander. What’s the problem with the age thing exactly? The fact Giles is more wrinkly than Faith or that he’d be far wiser, far more grown ect? Because if that’s the case, than the same can apply for Anya/Xander.


And Giles would be a complete prick for selling out his relationship with the entire Scooby Gang permanently by screwing one of their own, albeit the black sheep.

Who says the entire Scooby Gang would dislike him for this? I honestly don’t think they would? If they had any, and I mean *any* clue about how what they have done in the past and what they’ve been guilty of and any kind of self reflection (even currently guilty of in the case of Willow) I think they’d have quite a nerve to hate Giles for doing this? I can't see Xander or Willow truly disliking Giles for sleeping with Faith but that's just me. If Xander can get over Buffy and freakin Spike! He can get over this, he’d be nowhere near as emotionally invested in despising the idea of Giles/Faith as he was Buffy/Spike. Willow, maybe but still I'm pretty iffy about it, more of a chance than Xander though IMO.

KingofCretins
20-02-09, 01:55 AM
I'm not going to debate it in depth any further unless it actually comes up. It's enough to say that I expect better of Giles than to be deserving of having an episode of Jerry Springer based on his love life. And Giles/Faith = Springer.

Vampire in Rug
20-02-09, 01:59 AM
This is quite an interesting discussion.

First off, no I don't think that Giles and Faith will be hooking up. I did not get that impression from the original post. I could be wrong, but I don't think season eight is going to go there.

Now, for the sake of the discussion, I've gotta agree mostly with King. Regarding the age difference, I understand that two consenting adults can do whatever they want, however saying it's no different to Buffy/Angel, Buffy/Spike and Xander/Anya feels incorrect to me. Our three immortal demon scoobies may have been hundreds of years old, but thier bodies and minds are in a state of being at most, in thier mid twenties. I guess it's a matter of opinion (because Angel, Spike and Anya are much older), but to me the age difference between isn't as much of a stretch as it is between Giles and Faith. Angel, Spike and Anya appear, and act much like another guy/girl Buffy/Xander's age might act. In fact, as far as Anya and Spike are concerned, Xander and Anya were actually the emotionally mature ones in the relationship dispite being centuries younger. That's not the case with Faith and Giles.


I agree with King in that Giles hooking up with Faith would be a huge slap in Buffy's face, and I hope to god that doesn't happen. Just because Buffy has cut Giles out (which isn't unreasonable given the circumstances) doesn't mean that Giles should just stop giving a crap about Buffy. Buffy wouldn't be okay with a Faith and Giles pairing and the reasons why are pretty obvious. It has much less to do with an age difference, and more to do with Buffy's relationships with both Giles and Faith. If Giles still has the slightest bit of "give a crap" about Buffy, why would he knowingly do something to hurt her like that?

vampmogs
20-02-09, 02:15 AM
First off, no I don't think that Giles and Faith will be hooking up. I did not get that impression from the original post. I could be wrong, but I don't think season eight is going to go there.

I actually didn't get the impression either, but apparently some advertisements, haven't seen them myself, have given that impression. It'll be funny if it doesn't happen and this entire discussion was for nothing! :lol:


Our three immortal demon scoobies may have been hundreds of years old, but thier bodies and minds are in a state of being at most, in thier mid twenties.

I understand what you're saying about your bodies but I don't think I could agree about their "minds." Both Angel and Spike have called Riley, Andrew and Xander "boy" and have given the "older and wiser" speech in the past, "I've been around a lot longer than you."

We do have textual confirmation (about the only bit in this debate :roll: ) that Giles' age isn't an issue for her with her flirtatious comment about him being "young and cute." Which isn't a surprise, I always got the impression Faith's "banged a lot of bankers" from all different age brackets. And really I don't find that much of a stretch, many people on this forum alone have expressed their opinion that Anthony Head is sexy and the people I'm thinking of are only in the 20's as well.

Can't say if it's an issue for Giles though, I think it'd be more of an issue there. Though I do remember reading a meta once regarding 'Restless' with someone interpreting his dream being about how he feels uncomfortable noticing Buffy has a woman- something I never took out of the episode mind you.


I guess it's a matter of opinion (because Angel, Spike and Anya are much older), but to me the age difference between isn't as much of a stretch as it is between Giles and Faith. Angel, Spike and Anya appear, and act much like another guy/girl Buffy/Xander's age might act. In fact, as far as Anya and Spike are concerned, Xander and Anya were actually the emotionally mature ones in the relationship dispite being centuries younger. That's not the case with Faith and Giles.

The vibe I got from Faith/Giles at the end of 'No Future For You' is that they have a lot to learn from each other, which is why Faith made it clear she didn't want to follow him anymore and Giles wanted to be partners instead. Like Krueger says, a few seasons ago the pairing (either platonic or romantic) wouldn't have made sense but where the characters are at now, it does. Faith's forced to be "better than she has ever been" and Giles regressed somewhat in later season, which IMO puts them at even odds in terms of maturity right now. Not saying that automatically means they should have a romance and ride off into the sunset together, but IMO I'm not getting a sense one is more wise than the other, it's the only way the ending of 'NFFY' and a solid partnership between them can work.


If Giles still has the slightest bit of "give a crap" about Buffy, why would he knowingly do something to hurt her like that?

Don't we have to ask ourselves the same about Buffy? People do things, knowing that it could hurt somebody else if they found out. They don't do it to intentionally slap them in the face but things happen. Buffy did it with Spike, knowing very much that it'd really hurt Xander but she wasn't doing it to slap him in the face, Willow is arguably doing it with the snake demon right now even preparing the unaware Kennedy by reinforcing how much she loves her, bracing herself for a possible fallout should Kennedy find out what's really going on.

If Giles/Faith did hook up for the connection mentioned in the interview I don’t think we can be unreasonably harsh towards Giles when he’s not the first, and most likely won’t be the last character to do something knowing that it’d hurt someone close to them if they found out. Someone pointed out that given the pop culture references Buffy may be around 26 years old now, the time has passed to expect Giles to act different than she would, she’s a grown up.

It's too early to tell if they'd even do this and I agree with you it's very unlikely, if it does happen I'll have to read the issue for myself. I think it's one of those things that could turn out horribly or turn out well, if Vaughn was writing this I think he could make something really great out of it seeing how well he wrote both characters already, but I don't know anything about this Krueger guy so I'm remaining optimistic and hoping for the best.

Honestly, I'd much rather a platonic relationship and never even thought about them shacking up but I seem to be one of very few people who weren't completely sickened by the idea. I think it has to do with the fact Giles/Faith we never actually all that close back in the day so it feels like they're only getting to know eachother for the first time.

SIDE NOTE: Just reading over the old 'No Future For You' threads and Maggie seemed to think that they were setting up romance with Giles/Faith so perhaps she was onto something?

Wolfie Gilmore
20-02-09, 10:27 AM
And bad sex, now that we’re speaking of things under the belt while Giles comes from a prim and proper world of academia and rules.

Erm, have they met Giles? The man who, even in his “dotage” has an “orgasm friend”. And who, when he was younger, was “black magic hates the world” guy – I imagine some naughty stuff went on in that London gang of magicians.

But hopefully that’s just a lazy interview and not actually a lack of knowledge about the character. I’m looking forward to this issue a lot.

XavierZane
20-02-09, 04:36 PM
I personally hope that Giles and Faith are bedmates in the literal sense. I got a strong shippy vibe between them in NFFY, but figured that there would be no followthrough. I have no problem with Giles and Faith together, and Buffy's feelings on the subject don't matter in the slightest. They wouldn't even if Giles and she were on talking terms. The only feelings that matter are those of the two people involved. Did Buffy stop loving Angel because Xander and Giles hated it? No. Did Xander stop loving Cordelia because Willow and Buffy hated it? No. Did Willow keep herself from loving Tara because Oz would be hurt, or because her friends might freak out? No. Did Xander stop loving Anya because Willow distrusted her? No. Did Buffy cut Spike loose because everone distrusted him? No. Should Giles and Faith keep themselves from exploring a connection because Buffy might hate it? No.

Simple.

OkinawanSteel
20-02-09, 05:29 PM
Seriously, if Giles and Faith are sleeping together, it would go up in the heirarchy of worst plot developments in the history of the Buffyverse, right up there with "Empty Places".

Gotta agree with this. I think it would be a disastrous plot development, and disastrous within the story too (Never mind Buffy, I can't see how this would be a positive thing for Faith or Giles). They seemed strictly platonic/paternal to me in NFFY and I hope it stays that way. It also fit into the pattern of the type of people that Faith seems to be able to connect with, fatherly/mentor type figures that make it clear they're not interested in her that way (Angel, The Mayor).

I find it hard to see how Faith and Giles could start building trust in each other, respect, and everything required for them to have a good working relationship in they had hopped in the sack together so shortly after the events of NFFY. How would this even come about anyway? I just can't picture at all. I don't like this idea, and will be very surprised if it actually happens.

Please don't frak with my two favourite characters this way, comics. :(

Koos
20-02-09, 07:09 PM
You could tell she would have preferred the company in L.A. over being sent to help in Sunnydale and get further mistreated by Buffy, who still hasn't acknowledged her growth with Angel and Wesley. And season 8 seems to be avoiding the fact that Faith has closer ties (friendly ties) to L.A. than the old Sunnydale crew.

BtVS is a very different type of show that AtS. It has a different tone as it were. Also all characters are treated differently when they are crossed over. IMO both shows should also stay separated as much as possible.

blue_peroxide
20-02-09, 10:00 PM
It's not just an age difference... if Giles had some random chippy on the side who was Buffy's age, it wouldn't be quite the same thing.
Exactly. Because Giles is Buffy's surrogate father.


Seriously, if Giles and Faith are sleeping together, it would go up in the heirarchy of worst plot developments in the history of the Buffyverse, right up there with "Empty Places".
I think it would be much much worse than Empty Places.


Why are you ok with Xander/Dawn and not Giles/Faith? From what I can tell you get shippy vibes from them because they've *bonded* and we all know that it would piss Buffy off as well, but you don't care? Why the double standards? It could really anger Buffy, possibly ruin her relationship with either Xander or Dawn or both but you support it?
Xander and Dawn would be perfectly okay. Buffy and Xander are friends. Dawn grows up, her and Xander find each other. Seems plausible, natural. Why not? Their age gap (not that that would matter very much anyway) is quite small actually. Dawn started high school in S7, that means she and Xander have ca 6 years between them.
Giles is totally different thing because of the father issue.


There's a reason the episode where "Buffy kicks Giles to the curb" is called Lies My Parents Told Me. It never stopped being a father/daughter dynamic, regardless of their fallouts.
Exactly.

So I really hope the article has just weird wording and that Giles/Faith never happens.

vampmogs
21-02-09, 12:32 AM
I get people thinking it was only platonic between them in 'NFFY' but where does this parental vibe come from? Giles has never been a surrogate father to Faith, never. And he wasn't in this issue really either, when the issue ends they end it as partners, a team, equals, learning from one another. I don't really get the parental vibe with Giles/Faith.

Faith stopped any kind of parental vibe between them the moment she flirted with him and called him cute in 'Faith, Hope & Trick.'

The Mayor was Faith's parental figure, not Giles, that's one of the reasons she turned to the Mayor and found comfort in him in the first place, because she didn't have one.

Sosa lola
21-02-09, 08:48 AM
Here's what I think: Giles is the Scoobies' father figure, but was never Faith's, so I don't see the big deal. As for betraying Buffy, in her eyes, he already did. He already chose to work with Faith. It will hurt her beyond belief to find out that they're sleeping together (which I doubt. I never thought "bedmates" or whatever was supposed to be taken so literally.), but then Buffy also betrayed Giles by hiding Angel's return and snogging with him after what had happened to Giles in S2. In the end, Giles had gotten over it, and so would Buffy.

As for thinking that Hank is better than Giles because Giles slept with Faith, what?????? Where was Hank when Buffy needed emotional support in S2? Where was Hank when Joyce died? Where was Hank when Buffy was struggling with money issues? Who's taken care of Buffy when Hank wasn't around, it was Giles. So that makes Giles way, way, way, way ahead of Hank, and sleeping with Faith will never make Hank a better parent than Giles. There's no way. Hank abondoned Buffy, never asks after her, never cares, never calls. Giles still asks after, cares, protects Buffy. So, Giles is way better than Hank.

EndersWrath
21-02-09, 09:33 AM
But he does worry about it -- or at least used to. See Restless.

Vamps, as much as I love your posts, you lose come credibility in regards to Season 8 when you praise every issue, rebuff every criticism and defend every creative choice. It can have failings and still be a good season -- in fact, one should expect it to.
What the hell?! He loses CREDIBILITY?! Is he applying for an effing loan here?!
Sorry, Adam, your opinion no longer counts because you are very very happy with season 8, and have little to no gripes about it. Please come back when you actually have something to complain about.

What the hell is happening with this forum?! Seriously. There is credibility now? I rarely post in here, so what is my credit score for my opinions on the subject? Little to none? So should I just not post in here until I have something negative to say? Will that help my cred?

That was a totally out of line comment.



Here's what I think: Giles is the Scoobies' father figure, but was never Faith's, so I don't see the big deal. As for betraying Buffy, in her eyes, he already did. He already chose to work with Faith. It will hurt her beyond belief to find out that they're sleeping together (which I doubt. I never thought "bedmates" or whatever was supposed to be taken so literally.), but then Buffy also betrayed Giles by hiding Angel's return and snogging with him after what had happened to Giles in S2. In the end, Giles had gotten over it, and so would Buffy.

As for thinking that Hank is better than Giles because Giles slept with Faith, what?????? Where was Hank when Buffy needed emotional support in S2? Where was Hank when Joyce died? Where was Hank when Buffy was struggling with money issues? Who's taken care of Buffy when Hank wasn't around, it was Giles. So that makes Giles way, way, way, way ahead of Hank, and sleeping with Faith will never make Hank a better parent than Giles. There's no way. Hank abondoned Buffy, never asks after her, never cares, never calls. Giles still asks after, cares, protects Buffy. So, Giles is way better than Hank.

I agree with you Farah, I mean Faith and Giles never had a Father/Daughter relationship. He was never a parental figure to her. If ANYONE was it would be Wesley or Angel. I don't see people grossing out over that. Now if Faith were to have gotten with The Mayor... THAT would have been gross and I would be joining people in their retching.

Giles didn't want to view himself as the Father Figure to Buffy, he didn't want to take that role from Hank, he wanted to be like the Uncle, like he said in Season 6 when he gave Buffy that check to help her out. I mean he was the adult figure in the scoobie circle, but Faith was never a part of that circle, Buffy always made sure of that. Faith will always be bad in her eyes. Sure Willow goes and kills a guy, but she is forgiven hands down. She atoned for it and I think she should be forgiven as well, but Faith has also been atoning for her sins, and Buffy won't even give it a glance.

Saying that Hank > Giles is totally laughable. I mean really? The guy ABANDONED his family in their time of need. Giles has always been there for them. When he felt it was their time to get out of the nest he took himself out and let them grow. He came back to help Willow and in Season 7 he came back to help The Scoobies. Even if his intentions were not the greatest in LMPTM, he was still trying to help. Buffy pushed Giles away, she is stubborn and won't apologize or say that she may have over reacted.

Bedmates does not automatically mean that they are sleeping together. It could very well just be a figure of speech. But per usual, people are taking everything at face value before seeing the issue and turning on each other. Here I thought we were a better forum, and now I remember why I hardly venture into these discussions.



PEOPLE ARE CHEERING ON XANDER/DAWN BUT GETTING GROSSED OUT BY THIS?! I think some peoples credit rating should be lowered.

KingofCretins
21-02-09, 11:49 AM
I mean Faith and Giles never had a Father/Daughter relationship. He was never a parental figure to her. If ANYONE was it would be Wesley or Angel. I don't see people grossing out over that. Now if Faith were to have gotten with The Mayor... THAT would have been gross and I would be joining people in their retching.

My point, at least, has never had anything to do with whether or not there's a father/daughter dynamic between Faith and Giles, and unless I was skimming, I don't know anyone else did either.

The issue here is Giles relationship with Buffy and Buffy's relationship with Faith. Buffy's surrogate father sleeping with her "frenemy".

Basically, the effect of this on Buffy would be just the same as the effect on Giles if Buffy started sleeping with Ethan Rayne. Or the effect on Veronica if Keith Mars had started sleeping with Mac, or with Madison Sinclair.


Saying that Hank > Giles is totally laughable. I mean really? The guy ABANDONED his family in their time of need. Giles has always been there for them. When he felt it was their time to get out of the nest he took himself out and let them grow. He came back to help Willow and in Season 7 he came back to help The Scoobies. Even if his intentions were not the greatest in LMPTM, he was still trying to help. Buffy pushed Giles away, she is stubborn and won't apologize or say that she may have over reacted.

Not better now, only better if Giles went ahead and made himself a Jerry Springer episode by sleeping with one of the Scoobies' peers.


Bedmates does not automatically mean that they are sleeping together. It could very well just be a figure of speech. But per usual, people are taking everything at face value before seeing the issue and turning on each other. Here I thought we were a better forum, and now I remember why I hardly venture into these discussions.

Here I thought speculation was a part of even "better" forums. And, again, it wasn't "bedmates" that set off the alarm of Faith/Giles romance, it was something else he said, where Krueger linked Faith's history of "bad sex under her belt" with her relationship with Giles.


PEOPLE ARE CHEERING ON XANDER/DAWN BUT GETTING GROSSED OUT BY THIS?! I think some peoples credit rating should be lowered.

But, as noted, Xander and Dawn are as far apart in age as Buffy and Riley, so the age thing isn't a thing at all. In terms of what we're talking about, how them getting together would effect the people around them, I just don't think it would be as upsetting to Buffy or anyone else as it would be for Giles to just say "y'know, that whole surrogate father vibe I have going with all of you whether I like it or not? Yeah, I'm just going to throw that out the window by sleeping with this woman you all went to school with and have very complicated history with."

vampmogs
21-02-09, 11:57 AM
"y'know, that whole surrogate father vibe I have going with all of you whether I like it or not? Yeah, I'm just going to throw that out the window by sleeping with this woman you all went to school with and have very complicated history with."

Which is in no way worse than "y'know that guy that killed your girlfriend and tortured you? Well I seeing him again, behind your back" or "you know that unremorseful mass murderer that you all distrust and hate so much, I've been sleeping with him for months and haven't told you"

This isn’t the giant horrendous horrible idea it is, unless everyone here as complete and utter double standards towards Giles, which they have no legitimate reason to.

I don't remember seeing anyone say Buffy was "stabbing Giles in the back, spitting in his eye, slapping him in the face ect" when Buffy did either of these things. I'll never get the massive overreaction and venomous attitude towards Giles and not Buffy.

Nina
21-02-09, 11:58 AM
The Buffy and age issues are not even my real problems, my problem is more that Faith was always looking for a parent (and friends, boyfriend, purpose etc.). But she became evil because she wanted a father, she enjoyed having Joyce as a mother etc. And Giles kind of lost his daughter, I know that he never saw himself as Buffy's father. But there was a relation that looks too much like a father/daughter relation.

So we've a young slayer looking for a parent, and a man who just lost his daughter/slayer. It's not the most healthy premise of a sexual relation.

vampmogs
21-02-09, 12:05 PM
So we've a young slayer looking for a parent, and a man who just lost his daughter/slayer. It's not the most healthy premise of a sexual relation.

Is Faith still looking for that? It's just my interpretation of how I viewed 'No Future For You' but I thought that Gigi forced Faith to reflect on the Mayor and finally outgrow that need for a father figure, and any left over feelings for the guy. Gigi is what Faith used to be, I don't think she's desperate for a parental figure anymore.

GILES: I thought you were done with bloodshed.

FAITH: I am. But there are gonna be other Gigis out there. If I stopped stabbing and started, I don’t know… playing social worker to the Slayers, maybe I could help walk a few bad girls back from the brink.

In close-up, Giles holds his thumb up to his chin as he considers her idea.

In a wider-view, Faith take his silence a skepticism, turning away from him as if embarrassed.

FAITH: You think it’s a lame idea, right?

GILES: On the contrary. I was wondering if I might be able to join you. A war is coming, but perhaps there are battles you and I can win before either of us has to take the field.

From above, we see Faith slipping on her denim jacket as she turns back towards Giles.

FAITH: Appreciate the offer, but I think I’m done taking orders, even from guys I dig.

GILES: Actually, given your most recent performance, I was envisioning more of a partnership between equals. We could perform those peacekeeping missions ill suited to others in our line of work. Maybe I could be the Steed to your Peel?

The view changes and we look at Giles from beside Faith. Her expression is a little confused, but not unhappy. Giles adjusts his glasses as he answers Faith’s awkward question.

FAITH: God, I hope that’s not as gross as it sounds. And anyway, wouldn’t me and you starting a two-man band go down lousy with your main girl?

GILES: I’m afraid I wouldn’t know. Buffy and I… aren’t on speaking terms at the moment.

We see them together, facing each other with Faith reaching up to touch Giles arm. They are smiling at each other a little. Accepting and encouraging each other.

FAITH: Then I guess we’re on our own, huh?

GILES: It would appear so.

The scene changes again as we hear Giles finish his thought. It’s near dark in a remote area. A black helicopter flies toward a mountain top, a flat-topped spire of a mountain.

GILES: (continued) But perhaps we can be on our own together.

After reading that I just don't get that vibe from either of them. However, if you're right and there is that need left in either of them than yes, that can't be healthy.

KingofCretins
21-02-09, 12:07 PM
Which is in no way worse than "y'know that guy that killed your girlfriend and tortured you? Well I seeing him again, behind your back" or "you know that unremorseful mass murderer that you all distrust and hate so much, I've been sleeping with him for months and haven't told you"

This isn’t the giant horrendous horrible idea it is, unless everyone here as complete and utter double standards towards Giles, which they have no legitimate reason to.

You're overlooking how people actually *did* react to Buffy and Angel in Season 3. I recall there was some mention of lacking any respect for Giles or the job he performs? You're also overlooking that, as far as Buffy was concerned (incorrectly, in my opinion, but it's relevant because she wouldn't have made the connection), Angel and Angelus have nothing to do with each other.

What would you think if Buffy and Ethan Rayne were to have started sleeping with each other? I mean, Giles wouldn't have any reason to be upset about that, right? Xander and Joyce could have started sleeping together without it being inappropriate, too. And, I really like my "Veronica Mars" example, Veronica finds out that Keith is sleeping with Madison Sinclair. Or Jackie. Or Mac.

Nina, it would basically ruin the snot right out of the interesting dynamic that was set up in "No Future For You". Thankfully, I'm actually inclined to think that Krueger wasn't thinking about how that all sounded and that they aren't sleeping together. We wouldn't have to waste story time in Season 8 on baleful stares and people being grossed out at Giles and actually bring Giles and Faith into the story.

Nina
21-02-09, 12:17 PM
Is Faith still looking for that? It's just my interpretation of how I viewed 'No Future For You' but I thought that Gigi forced Faith to reflect on the Mayor and finally outgrow that need for a father figure, and any left over feelings for the guy. Gigi is what Faith used to be, I don't think she's desperate for a parental figure anymore.

[SCRIPT]

After reading that I just don't get that vibe from either of them. However, if you're right and there is that need left in either of them than yes, that can't be healthy.

I don't know, it could be that both don't feel the need. But there is also a chance that they are still searching. I need a bit more story with these two, to make up my mind about that. I don't know if you can get over that urge that easily. At least that's my main problem with the relation. If it's no longer an issue I'm fine with it.

vampmogs
21-02-09, 12:34 PM
You're overlooking how people actually *did* react to Buffy and Angel in Season 3. I recall there was some mention of lacking any respect for Giles or the job he performs? You're also overlooking that, as far as Buffy was concerned (incorrectly, in my opinion, but it's relevant because she wouldn't have made the connection), Angel and Angelus have nothing to do with each other.

I’m not talking about an overreaction from the characters I’m talking about an overreaction from the fans. Buffy’s never received such venomous hate spat at her like Giles has these past couple of days, it’s utter double standards. Sleeping with Faith hardly even compares to some of the morally dodgy people Buffy has slept with, or even Xander/Willow *cheating* on poor Oz and Cordy and there was no such hatred towards either Xander or Willow like there has been towards Giles. It’s just ridiculous, out of all the crimes some of these characters have done, the terrible relationships they’ve been in.. and *this* is what makes people blow a fuse?

I've never denied Buffy would have issues with it, the first thing I said was "Buffy is gonna freak!" but that doesn't automatically doom the relationship for me. As I've said it's hardly the worst relationship a character has been in and hardly the most unhealthy, that award goes to Spuffy whatever the hell Angel/soulless Darla were messing around in, in Ats s2 and Willow/Saga Vasuki. If it was actually positive for Giles/Faith which it totally could be, the fact Buffy would be hurt by it isn't going to automatically make me hate them as a couple anymore than I hated Willow/Xander as a couple in s3 even though I knew it was wrong of them to hurt Oz and Cordy like they did.


What would you think if Buffy and Ethan Rayne were to have started sleeping with each other?

It's not the same thing other than Giles would be pissed? If Buffy and *Ethan Rayne* started sleeping together I'd say Buffy's just entered into another relationship with a morally corrupt guy and hasn't learnt her lesson from season six. Faith's reformed, doing better than Buffy right now and can actually be a great influence on Giles as he could be for her.


I mean, Giles wouldn't have any reason to be upset about that, right?

Of course he would, but I still don't see it as legitimate reason to hate the idea of Giles/Faith as much as you do. There's been plenty of relationships in this show that have greatly upset others not partaking in the relationship and those characters never got ragged on as much as Giles has just in these few short days.


Nina, it would basically ruin the snot right out of the interesting dynamic that was set up in "No Future For You". Thankfully, I'm actually inclined to think that Krueger wasn't thinking about how that all sounded and that they aren't sleeping together. We wouldn't have to waste story time in Season 8 on baleful stares and people being grossed out at Giles and actually bring Giles and Faith into the story.

No one is "grossed out" by the fact Buffy kisses guys that drink nothing but *blood* that Buffy sleeps with two *corpses* that Willow's had sexual intercourse with a *serpent* it's hardly "gross" in comparison.

I agree that it'd be better to keep it platonic but by already condemning it before it's even happened you've made up your mind that you'd never give the story a chance, you've made up your mind that you're going to hate it no matter what so no matter what the story does for you, you won't like it.


I don't know, it could be that both don't feel the need. But there is also a chance that they are still searching. I need a bit more story with these two, to make up my mind about that. I don't know if you can get over that urge that easily. At least that's my main problem with the relation. If it's no longer an issue I'm fine with it.

Well I actually agree with you there, and I would need to read it for myself to see if what I'm feeling is correct or not, because it's just a vibe I get and nothing more. I do hope Faith is over that though, I felt she'd grown in self confidence and decided to focus outwards instead of inwards. Wanting to help other unfortunate slayers seemed to be about Faith putting aside her personal issues for other people, and whilst everyone should take care of themselves, that was good for Faith.

I can understand anyone's concerns about this from a number of standpoints. Is it believeable for the characters? Is it bad if it stems from needing a father figure/slayer, would it ruin the great way 'NFFY' ended with these two ect. However, what I do not understand is the overblown, pure hate-filled comments directed at Giles if he were to get involved with Faith all because it would hurt Buffy's feelings when no one has ever been so angry at Buffy, Xander or Willow for all getting involved with relationships that also hurt a lot of other people's feelings, sometimes Giles' feelings. Double standards, overreaction, that's all I gotta say.

cheryl4ba
21-02-09, 04:51 PM
I really really hope they don't go there with Giles and Faith. It would hurt Buffy and it isn't something that I could ever see Giles really doing. Might fit in with the wonkiness that all the other characters seem to be suffering through though.

Thomas
21-02-09, 05:58 PM
Firstly, I agree with Joe. Dawn/Xander is okay, despite them always having a older brother/little sister vibe? Not to mention it's his best friend's little sister, but Faith/Giles is gross despite never having much of a relationship at all?

Secondly, I don't think Faith/Giles are sleeping together. "Bedmate" could mean sleeping together, but it could also mean like, "You've made your bed, now lay in it." So to speak, Giles and Faith are now in the same "bed." Making them "unusual bedmates."

KingofCretins
21-02-09, 06:26 PM
The argument is not now, never was, and never would have been that Faith and Giles have some kind of paternal relationship. This has been demonstrated through examples, even, to no use.

Example --

There's a girl named... Jill. She has, since she was a teenager, had only one adult male role model in her life, her (rakish) uncle Mel. Mel and her haven't always gotten along as she's gotten older, but Jill has always looked at him like a father anyway.

Jill had a friend named Maria. Maria and Jill got along great for a while, but then they fell out and were enemies for a long time. They have tried to make up a few times, and it's clear they share a deep bond, but mostly they just don't understand each other.

Now, Jill finds out that her paternal Uncle Mel is sleeping with Maria. How should Jill feel about that? Is that "okay"? Should Mel, knowing full well the history between Jill and Maria taken Jill's feelings into account, or what effect it would have on their relationship, if he got involved with Maria?

Is there any defense out there for the idea of Giles/Faith that doesn't just turn around and redirect it like "well X and Y did it, so it's fine"?

It's one thing to say "ah, well, Angel and Spike drink blood". Okay, fair enough. I guess the question is "how do real people react when their friends sleep with vampires?" Except there are no vampires. There are, though, father figures that make really bad choices that hurt their "children". And we can make certain predictions about how people react to them. It's pretty hard as a writer to worry about how people would *really* react to sex with vampires. The more fantastic the story element is, the less realistic everything about how people react to it is.

This is also why people are harsher on Buffy/Spike after the AR than they are on Buffy/Angel after losing his soul and going on a killing spree. Because the former is realistic and the latter isn't. So, whether you think it's fair or not, *yes*, people are going to react more strongly to Giles having a pretty skeevy relationship with his surrogate daughter's friend/rival than they are going to react to Buffy sleeping with a mythological creature.

Mogs, whether you think people should or shouldn't be grossed out really isn't the point -- they *would* be, many of them, and the characters. So hopefully we can count on Joss just skipping what would be a terrible subplot and sticking to more interesting storytelling about Buffy, bank robbing, Twilight, vampires in public, etc.

cheryl4ba
21-02-09, 06:39 PM
Big fat word, King. I agree with all your points.

Bittersweettwit
21-02-09, 08:32 PM
I have to agree that whether or not it is justified! Many of the characters on the show are going to be grossed out by the idea of Giles and Faith. Firstly, as other users have highlighted Giles is something of a father figure to Buffy even if the pair are currently estranged, and seeing as she was jealous and hurt by the idea of him simply working with him in 'No Future For You'. Finding out that the pair are in a relationship if it turns out to be true is definitely going to piss her off.

Also I personally don't like the idea of Giles/Faith for one thing he is PHYSICALLY more than twice her age and definitely has the mental maturity unlike Angel and Spike who both look and act much younger than what they really are. I just don't think that Faith and Giles getting together is a good idea. But I do think that they are great at working together as long as they remain just friends :D By the way before anyone points out the age gap of Spuffy or Bangel I don't particularly like either of those relationships either :p

sueworld
21-02-09, 09:09 PM
Secondly, I don't think Faith/Giles are sleeping together. "Bedmate" could mean sleeping together, but it could also mean like, "You've made your bed, now lay in it." So to speak, Giles and Faith are now in the same "bed." Making them "unusual bedmates."

Exactly. In business that term is also applied. So quite why everyones reading it as the pair are going to jump each is other I find rather surprising.

vampmogs
21-02-09, 11:02 PM
So, whether you think it's fair or not, *yes*, people are going to react more strongly to Giles having a pretty skeevy relationship with his surrogate daughter's friend/rival than they are going to react to Buffy sleeping with a mythological creature.

What about Xander and Willow cheating on Oz and Cordy? I don't see how it's any better, were you as disgusted at them as you would be Giles?

Bittersweettwit
21-02-09, 11:13 PM
What about Xander and Willow cheating on Oz and Cordy? I don't see how it's any better, were you as disgusted at them as you would be Giles?

I know the question wasn't directed at me but since I mostly agree with King. I figured I'd answer personally while I wasn't disgusted with the concept of Willow and Xander getting together. I was pretty disgusted with the way that they did it. And I certainly felt more pity for both Oz and Cordelia during that time than I did for Willow and Xander. Although I don't agree with the coupling I think this particular scenario is worse than Giles/Faith though.

vampmogs
21-02-09, 11:19 PM
I know the question wasn't directed at me but since I mostly agree with King. I figured I'd answer personally while I wasn't disgusted with the concept of Willow and Xander getting together. I was pretty disgusted with the way that they did it. And I certainly felt more pity for both Oz and Cordelia during that time than I did for Willow and Xander. Although I don't agree with the coupling I think this particular scenario is worse than Giles/Faith though.

Nah feel free to answer I'm trying to gage the reaction of all the audience not just King. :)

Ah kay so you actually thought Xander/Willow was worse, cool. That's all I'm really wanting to know because as you know from my POV I think people have overreacted way too much towards Giles and just hold him to entirely different standards than all the other characters. "He's lower than Hank ect ect" when Xander/Willow cheating on Cordy/Oz is, IMO as well, worse. And everyone, both characters and fans, forgave them.

Bittersweettwit
21-02-09, 11:29 PM
Nah feel free to answer I'm trying to gage the reaction of all the audience not just King. :)

Ah kay so you actually thought Xander/Willow was worse, cool. That's all I'm really wanting to know because as you know from my POV I think people have overreacted way too much towards Giles and just hold him to entirely different standards than all the other characters. "He's lower than Hank ect ect" when Xander/Willow cheating on Cordy/Oz is, IMO as well, worse. And everyone, both characters and fans, forgave them.

Yeah I definitely think that what Willow and Xander did to Oz and Cordelia was worse than if Giles and Faith end up being together. Although I can't speak for the rest of the people in this thread, or indeed the fandom in general. I personally have no problems with Giles getting into a relationship in fact I enjoyed watching his relationship with Jenny in Season 2, or his short lived relaitonship with Olivia during season 4. So I definitely have no problems with the idea of Giles getting together with someone of a similar age.

My only problem with Giles/Faith is the age difference which I personally think is alot. While I'll admit to an extent I probably do have double standards for vampire/human relationship though I never really liked Spuffy/, Bangel or Cangel. My main reason for having less problems with these age differences is that the vampires aren't physically aged differently and in some cases even mentally they haven't matured mentally either. Faith and Giles on the other hand I think are both at completely different stages of their lives and have different levels of maturity. Not that I'm saying Faith is immature though. Just at a different stage to Giles. I'm wording this badly :(

vampmogs
21-02-09, 11:36 PM
I personally have no problems with Giles getting into a relationship in fact I enjoyed watching his relationship with Jenny in Season 2, or his short lived relaitonship with Olivia during season 4. So I definitely have no problems with the idea of Giles getting together with someone of a similar age.

Oh me either, Giles/Jenny is my favourite couple in the Buffyverse so we agree there! :)


My only problem with Giles/Faith is the age difference which I personally think is alot. While I'll admit to an extent I probably do have double standards for vampire/human relationship though I never really liked Spuffy/, Bangel or Cangel. My main reason for having less problems with these age differences is that the vampires aren't physically aged differently and in some cases even mentally they haven't matured mentally either.

The "mentally aged" point you made is an interesting one for sure and you could very well be correct, but I think we're just completely different about the physically aged thing. :) As long as Faith doesn't care, I don't care, that's how I look at it. And she obviously doesn't care considering her comments in 'Faith, Hope & Trick.' What I am surprised about is why so many people do seem to care, when so many people on this forum and others have said how sexy they find Giles and we know Willow once had a crush on him as well? I didn't really think his age ever really worked against him unless you were Buffy who was the only one who seemed really grossed out by it.


Faith and Giles on the other hand I think are both at completely different stages of their lives and have different levels of maturity. Not that I'm saying Faith is immature though. Just at a different stage to Giles. I'm wording this badly :(

Nah I see what you mean and this could indeed pose a problem, as I said it's one of the reasons I was uncomfortable with the idea of Faith/Angel, because if one is more developed and becomes more of a "teacher" than there's such an unequal balance there that it creates a weird vibe for either of them to be together.

It's just from where I stand right now I think Faith could arguably teach Giles more than he could her. She seemed at a better place than him in 'No Future For You' and made better choices and I got the impression he was following her lead by the end of it more so than she was following him.

But yes you're right, if there is a big gap in maturity then it is a problem.I bet after sticking my neck out and saying all this, we'll get the issue and Faith will say something like "you've been like a dad to me!" :roll:

Seriously this probably isn't even going to happen and if I were just looking at Krueger's comments I would be completely sure of that. The only thing that makes me unsure is the advertisments Darkhorse has for this issue, saying "find out the real story behind Giles/Faith's hookup!" which when paired with some of these comments, makes me wonder...

Sosa lola
22-02-09, 12:36 AM
Exactly. In business that term is also applied. So quite why everyones reading it as the pair are going to jump each is other I find rather surprising.

When I first read the article, all I got was friendship vibes from Faith and Giles. Only when I returned here to read the replies I was shocked to see others pointing out that a Giles/Faith pairing was implied because of the word "Bedmates", and while English isn't my first language, I assumed he meant roommates or partners. I know that you don't read things literally all the time in the English language or any other language for that matter.

Maggie
22-02-09, 04:32 AM
Interesting conversation.

I did get a mildly shippy vibe from NFFY, most notably when Giles sees Faith all dressed up for the first time. That didn't look like a fatherly appreciation for a beautiful daughter. But maybe I'm not so good at interpreting comic book art.

That said, I have no idea whether they'd go in that direction or not.

I don't really see why people think this would be the worst development ever. Faith and Giles do not have a history of having a father/daughter relationship. Faith could use a guy who could be stable and available to her, and Giles might fill the bill. And I've always felt bad for Giles that his one shot at serious romance got killed by Buffy's lover. It's not like I'm *for* it, but I don't see it as being ooky of itself. And I'd like to see both of them get some romantic love. They're both overdue for that. If it's each other, cool.

I don't see why Buffy's feelings should be some sort of a trump card. If she cares about them, and if they are good for each other, she should be happy for them. I don't think she has any justification for seeing Faith as some sort of enemy at this point, so I'm not particularly interested in catering to any feelings she might have about someone becoming involved with her 'enemy'. I don't see where she gets to have territorial claims here. She should care about their welfare. And if it is the case that they are better off together, then she should be happy. If they are not better off together, she should register her concern. But take it as a slap in the face? I just don't get it.

vampmogs
22-02-09, 04:49 AM
I don't see why Buffy's feelings should be some sort of a trump card. If she cares about them, and if they are good for each other, she should be happy for them. I don't think she has any justification for seeing Faith as some sort of enemy at this point, so I'm not particularly interested in catering to any feelings she might have about someone becoming involved with her 'enemy'. I don't see where she gets to have territorial claims here. She should care about their welfare. And if it is the case that they are better off together, then she should be happy. If they are not better off together, she should register her concern. But take it as a slap in the face? I just don't get it.

Excellent point!

You’re absolutely right, why is that everyone expects Giles and Faith to adhere to Buffy’s feelings and take her feelings into account but no one expects likewise from Buffy? Why shouldn’t she put her own personal feelings aside and be happy for Giles if she really cared about him and wanted him to be happy? No one really ever considers that, it’s all about Buffy and it’s never about Buffy having to think about anyone else. As long as it doesn’t hurt Buffy, it’s fine, it doesn’t matter if Giles misses out on finding love and a connection as long as Buffy isn’t unhappy he'll just have to deal with that, likewise for Faith.

You know what would make me really respect Buffy is this actually happened? To pull an Angel on us and do what he did in 'Couplet.' He had feelings for Cordy and was jealous over her relationship with Groo, but what does he do at the end of that episode? He handles her a bundle of cash he's been saving up and tell her to go on holiday and "take Groo somewhere nice." He did something nice for both of them despite his own feelings because he cared about her. If Buffy was able to think about Giles and not about herself and how this effects her, when Giles has put Buffy before him so many times in the past, she'd come out of it looking a hell of a lot better.

Maggie
22-02-09, 07:34 AM
\
You know what would make me really respect Buffy is this actually happened? To pull an Angel on us and do what he did in 'Couplet.' He had feelings for Cordy and was jealous over her relationship with Groo, but what does he do at the end of that episode? He handles her a bundle of cash he's been saving up and tell her to go on holiday and "take Groo somewhere nice."

Well, except for the part where she'd be handing over cash that she got from robbing banks, that would be a good moment for her. (ha ha). Thanks for reminding me of one of Angel's better moments. I think we most show our love for others when we care about what is best for them, rather than what is best for us. I don't think Buffy is actually there. But I love her, and I would love for her to be there. And if she could rise to the occasion it would help offset some of the bad taste I have left over from some of her behavior with respect to Faith in NFFY. (I feel for Faith, all alone in her hovel and all that.)

If there are arguments to be made against Faith/Giles they should be internal to the pair. I could see arguments that go either way on that.

Bittersweettwit
22-02-09, 03:21 PM
The "mentally aged" point you made is an interesting one for sure and you could very well be correct, but I think we're just completely different about the physically aged thing. :) As long as Faith doesn't care, I don't care, that's how I look at it. And she obviously doesn't care considering her comments in 'Faith, Hope & Trick.' What I am surprised about is why so many people do seem to care, when so many people on this forum and others have said how sexy they find Giles and we know Willow once had a crush on him as well? I didn't really think his age ever really worked against him unless you were Buffy who was the only one who seemed really grossed out by it.

lol! And of course the whole Buffy being grossed out at the idea of someone her age like Faith and Willow finding Giles remotely attractive fits in with the whole father and daughter relationship that the writers were going for at the time. They would definitely though get a lot of 'Look at that dirty old man' from people when out in public. Whethers it deserved or not that's how a lot of people would react to such a relationship.


Nah I see what you mean and this could indeed pose a problem, as I said it's one of the reasons I was uncomfortable with the idea of Faith/Angel, because if one is more developed and becomes more of a "teacher" than there's such an unequal balance there that it creates a weird vibe for either of them to be together.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make! Thanks for making it better worded Mogs! :D. I just think that a relationship between the two would be completely unbalanced and that like with Buffy and Giles in the later seasons. There would be issues about how much the pair should listen and do the other says would arise.


But yes you're right, if there is a big gap in maturity then it is a problem.I bet after sticking my neck out and saying all this, we'll get the issue and Faith will say something like "you've been like a dad to me!" :roll:

Seriously this probably isn't even going to happen and if I were just looking at Krueger's comments I would be completely sure of that. The only thing that makes me unsure is the advertisments Darkhorse has for this issue, saying "find out the real story behind Giles/Faith's hookup!" which when paired with some of these comments, makes me wonder...

Lol well even if your right that Faith is at the better place of the two and has loads to teach Giles. I still think the point I made earlier is still valid. Whether its the younger or the older of the two, if one of them is trying to teach the other all the time this will create an uneven and troubled relationship for them.

Personally from reading the comment as I said earlier I really don't feel that he is planning on getting them together as a couple. If you interpet it as a whole with the exception of the word 'Bedmates' the rest of his answer is all about how the pair are good for each other for friendship as in some ways they are in the same place and that it has more of a friendship vibe than a romantic one. But of course that could just be me :roll:


Well, except for the part where she'd be handing over cash that she got from robbing banks, that would be a good moment for her. (ha ha). Thanks for reminding me of one of Angel's better moments. I think we most show our love for others when we care about what is best for them, rather than what is best for us. I don't think Buffy is actually there. But I love her, and I would love for her to be there. And if she could rise to the occasion it would help offset some of the bad taste I have left over from some of her behavior with respect to Faith in NFFY. (I feel for Faith, all alone in her hovel and all that.)

If there are arguments to be made against Faith/Giles they should be internal to the pair. I could see arguments that go either way on that.

Yeah I agree about the Buffy issue. Though I'm sure she's gonna be pretty pissed about the idea based on her reaction to them simply working together in 'NFFY' for you. I do think that she should try to put her personal feelings aside and try to be supportive. But honestly considering the place she is emotionally at the moment I think it's more likely that such a relationshipp will further push Buffy away from him, which is the last thing she needs. I think she needs someone like Giles to pull her out of her bubble and make her more grounded again. :D

Bloodsucker
22-02-09, 03:55 PM
Eh. Didn't get shippy vibes from those lines, personally, and couldn't really imagine them hooking up, but if they do... well, guess *shrug* would be my reaction. I'd be somewhat surprised, especially about Giles (because I really would not expect of him to dig Faith), but apart from that... well, to be honest, I wouldn't care much if it were made believable enough.

KingofCretins
22-02-09, 04:05 PM
The idea that there were 'shippy vibes in "No Future For You" baffles me -- everyone knows that Steed is an Avengers reference, right? That's not a double entendre. If I recall correctly, Peel and Steed were never lovers, either.

Forget how Buffy or the other characters *should* react... is there any real disagreement on how they *would* react? I would hope not. Buffy would freak, Willow would make that face, and Xander would just walk off. So, guys, ask yourselves -- is *that* the story you want them to go with in Season 8? Do you actually want this to happen, or are you just militantly defending it's believability?

If Giles and Faith hooked up, the likelihood of them ever explaining what the previous problem was between he and Buffy was would almost vanish -- everything between Buffy and Giles would be about this from now on (whether you think it should be or not). Is it important enough to anyone that you want *this* of all things to forever define Buffy's relationship with Giles and with Faith? Two of the most interesting relationships through the series?

Maggie
22-02-09, 06:33 PM
Like I said, I mostly got the shippy vibe from Giles' reaction to seeing Faith in her ball gown. There was also just this nice rapport between them in the My Fair Lady scenes. And then their smooth teamwork in #9. Not at all saying it *has* to be shippy. Just that there were moments when it seemed like it could be. Of course I got the Avengers reference. I loved that show when I was a kid. The nature of their relationship is never made explicit -- but it could be read into the background -- which is pretty much the norm for TV back then.

If I recall you refused to see the shippy vibe between Renee and Xander in LWH, so your failure to see it here is not dispositive. But I'll also say that while I thought Xenee was flat obvious, this is more subtle and could be read as just good comradery. (Though Giles did think she was beautiful when she came out in her gown).

Do I *want* it to happen? In a way, but as something that's not a big deal. Both characters have been alone forever. It'd be nice to see them not alone. And NFFY sold me on their chemistry. But if they want to be platonic partners, that'd be OK too. I just really like the idea that they're teamed up one way or another.

Would it *have* to be THE issue between Buffy and Giles? Not seeing it. Sorry. Buffy has already had her hissy fit about their connection. She needs to grow up and get over it. If she can mature enough to cope with the fact that they *have* formed a partnership, then the fact that their partnership extends to the bedroom ought not to be a big deal. If she's not mature enough to deal with their partnership, then the issue was already in play whether or not they are sharing a bedroom. Or to put it another way. Faith and Giles have bonded in one way or another. That issue is on the table regardless.

In any case, however it works out, I'm really excited for #24. I loved NFFY a lot. And partners or lovers, I do like the team of Faith and Giles. They worked very well together.

Matt
22-02-09, 06:46 PM
I can actually really imagine it happening and it's not even surprising.

I mean, if you look at their relationship, they weren't exactly close when Faith was there or whenever they had interaction and they've both been outcast by Buffy, so I expect they both feel pretty much the same and they have a lot in common.

KingofCretins
22-02-09, 06:48 PM
Like I said, I mostly got the shippy vibe from Giles' reaction to seeing Faith in her ball gown. There was also just this nice rapport between them in the My Fair Lady scenes. And then their smooth teamwork in #9. Not at all saying it *has* to be shippy. Just that there were moments when it seemed like it could be. Of course I got the Avengers reference. I loved that show when I was a kid. The nature of their relationship is never made explicit -- but it could be read into the background -- which is pretty much the norm for TV back then.

If Peel and Steed had been sleeping together off screen, it's unlikely that the chaste kiss on the cheek would have been the end of their time on-screen, IMO. But that's besides the point.


If I recall you refused to see the shippy vibe between Renee and Xander in LWH, so your failure to see it here is not dispositive. But I'll also say that while I thought Xenee was flat obvious, this is more subtle and could be read as just good comradery. (Though Giles did think she was beautiful when she came out in her gown).

I *don't* think it was demonstrably 'shippy in "The Long Way Home" -- it was made incrementally 'shippy up until it was, in 8.11, textually 'shippy. That's another reason why Faith/Giles doesn't work, at all, in any way -- it isn't demonstrably 'shippy, they leave for a few months, and when they reappear they're just... sleeping together? Random, non sequitur, weak sauce.


Would it *have* to be THE issue between Buffy and Giles? Not seeing it. Sorry. Buffy has already had her hissy fit about their connection. She needs to grow up and get over it. If she can mature enough to cope with the fact that they *have* formed a partnership, then the fact that their partnership extends to the bedroom ought not to be a big deal. If she's not mature enough to deal with their partnership, then the issue was already in play whether or not they are sharing a bedroom. Or to put it another way. Faith and Giles have bonded in one way or another. That issue is on the table regardless.

When you put it that way... it's actually even worse. Because, you're right, the subtext was that Buffy thought Giles didn't trust her and did trust Faith. That her surrogate father had replaced her with Faith. So if they turn out to be sleeping together, what is the subtext of the Buffy/Giles relationship all of the sudden? Actually, I take that back -- at this rate, I think people would figure that the only reason Buffy could be mad about this would be that she secretly wants Giles to herself. And Faith. Together. Because that would also make sense :)

Heh. If this happens, Buffy should go seduce Olivia. That wouldn't cross any lines, right?


In any case, however it works out, I'm really excited for #24. I loved NFFY a lot. And partners or lovers, I do like the team of Faith and Giles. They worked very well together.

They do work very well together, which is why I hope that Joss and Jim Krueger aren't planning on throwing away their great dynamic on what would be de facto PWP, just dropping us into them sleeping together and letting that completely override every other subplot with those characters and the interaction they have with others.

Michael
22-02-09, 07:31 PM
In The Avengers there were several hints of a personal relationship between Emma Peel and Steed over the two years they were together. In their last episode Emma tells the new girl Tara King how Steed likes his tea in the morning, or something like that. And of course Emma is leaving because her husband, who had been thought dead, has returned. Her husband bears a striking resemblance to John Steed.

I really think the Giles/Faith affair is a false alarm, or maybe a tease to see how the punters re-act. To me it would be too ludicrous to be credible and would damage the franchise.

Maggie
22-02-09, 08:38 PM
I *don't* think it was demonstrably 'shippy in "The Long Way Home" -- it was made incrementally 'shippy up until it was, in 8.11, textually 'shippy. That's another reason why Faith/Giles doesn't work, at all, in any way -- it isn't demonstrably 'shippy, they leave for a few months, and when they reappear they're just... sleeping together? Random, non sequitur, weak sauce.

Well, I thought the look on Xander's face was romantic when he was at Renee's bedside, and therefore was zero percent surprised when Xenee developed. So it worked for me. And frankly, so would this. I don't need to see it developing. The rapport is there already. They think each other attractive. Toss in a few months together on the road and I don't think there's anything that needs explaining. If they do have them together like that, I don't think it'll be a major plot point. For the reasons I said. But given the reactions on the board, it'd stir stuff up with fans, so maybe they wouldn't do it just on those grounds. Too bad, if you asked me. But oh well.


They do work very well together, which is why I hope that Joss and Jim Krueger aren't planning on throwing away their great dynamic on what would be de facto PWP, just dropping us into them sleeping together and letting that completely override every other subplot with those characters and the interaction they have with others.

PWP? Give me a break. People form romantic attachments on the show all the time, and nobody calls those relationships PWP.

And I'll just repeat that I think it's kind of sad that everyone is so bent out of shape that two lonely characters who get on very well might hook up on the grounds that it would upset their sensibilities (which they may or may not be projecting onto Buffy). I mostly object to the notion that everyone's happiness should, on principle, be held hostage by Buffy's feelings. With a side objection to Giles' de facto gelding on the show.

KingofCretins
22-02-09, 08:44 PM
Yes, "forming" an attachment would suggest that there is actually some process of formation taking place. That would not be even arguably the case here. PWP? Well, we have the sex, we lack the plot foundation for it... there we are.

And the "gelding" of Giles? Oh bull. Jenny? Olivia? Spell sex with Joyce followed by standing sexual tension? Giles was a pimp. Gelding.

It's not because it's Buffy, never has been, cannot be rationally construed from the argument. It's because it's any person that Giles actually respects his relationship with. What do you think the point of all the (completely unresponded because, presumably, there is no answer for them) examples has been? To demonstrate that it's the exact same problem if it was Giles' feelings, or Buffy's feelings, or Willow's feelings. Nobody owes *Buffy* a special emotional deference. They are expected to give any part of a crap about the feelings of the people around them in general.

Maggie
22-02-09, 09:33 PM
And the "gelding" of Giles? Oh bull. Jenny? Olivia? Spell sex with Joyce followed by standing sexual tension? Giles was a pimp. Gelding.

He had a relationship with Jenny. Who got killed by Buffy's lover. He's not had any *relationship* since then. (Who knows what was up with Olivia, that was all so off screen -- but it sure didn't look very serious).


It's not because it's Buffy, never has been, cannot be rationally construed from the argument. It's because it's any person that Giles actually respects his relationship with. What do you think the point of all the (completely unresponded because, presumably, there is no answer for them) examples has been? To demonstrate that it's the exact same problem if it was Giles' feelings, or Buffy's feelings, or Willow's feelings. Nobody owes *Buffy* a special emotional deference. They are expected to give any part of a crap about the feelings of the people around them in general.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. There are examples of relationships that should not happen because it would upset other people? I recall you mentioning Buffy/Olivia. Slightly different because Buffy hasn't slept with Faith, while Giles has slept with Olivia. But if it *really* made Buffy happy, would Giles *really* object? I don't see why. They are all grown-ups. Not sure I remember other so-called squicky examples. Tee them up again and I'll give you a reply. But the overriding principle is that if we're talking about a relationship that would really work for the two people involved, it seems to me that the people around them OUGHT to be happy for them.

Try this on: If it were the case that Faith really could be truly happy with Giles in a special way, not possible with any other, and the same were true of GIles with respect to Faith, would you still insist that they walk away from the big love of their lives because it might upset Buffy? What I'm missing here is any sense of proportion from you. Like the whole thing is all about Buffy and has nothing to do with how anyone else might feel or how it might affect their lives.

As for your argument that Faith/Giles would need more development, I just think it's kind of funny cause you're usually Mr. Fill in the Blanks guy. I guess we all have different ideas about what blanks need to be filled. This one wouldn't need to be filled for me.

That said, I think it's less likely rather than more likely that they'll go in this direction. If they do, I doubt it will be any kind of major plot point. Just something that's happening.

XavierZane
22-02-09, 09:37 PM
Yes, "forming" an attachment would suggest that there is actually some process of formation taking place. That would not be even arguably the case here. PWP? Well, we have the sex, we lack the plot foundation for it... there we are.

Did you not read NFFY? Because that was the process of formation. They spent several weeks working side-by-side, developing a relationship, and then decided at the end to ride off into the sunset together. Or did you think they decided to become partners because they looked around and no one else was in the room? I picked up major shippy vibes throughout their arc, and while the ending doesn't have to be read as romantic it easily could be read that way. Throw in a few months alone together on the road, and the idea of a romance is in no way surprising. The few months aren't even all that necessary. If there had been a coda at the end of NFFY, a "The Next Morning" after Giles and Faith decided to become partners, that had them in bed, or kissing, or holding hands, or what have you...it would have made perfect sense.


And the "gelding" of Giles? Oh bull. Jenny? Olivia? Spell sex with Joyce followed by standing sexual tension? Giles was a pimp. Gelding.

Jenny who he never slept with. Joyce who he only slept with because of a spell. Jenny was his only real romantic relationship, Olivia his only real sexual one. After the tenth episode of season 4 he had no social life of any sort.


It's not because it's Buffy, never has been, cannot be rationally construed from the argument. It's because it's any person that Giles actually respects his relationship with. What do you think the point of all the (completely unresponded because, presumably, there is no answer for them) examples has been? To demonstrate that it's the exact same problem if it was Giles' feelings, or Buffy's feelings, or Willow's feelings. Nobody owes *Buffy* a special emotional deference. They are expected to give any part of a crap about the feelings of the people around them in general.

Nobody owes anybody any special emotional deference. As I said before, and as many people have pointed out after me, the feelings of others have never meant anything when it came to the two people in romantic relationships in the Buffy universe. Buffy/Angel, Xander/Cordelia, Buffy/Spike, etc. If Giles were the actual father of anybody on the show, then your point might have some small amount of validity, made especially small because Buffy is twenty-four at this point and not fourteen. But Giles is not anybody's father on this show, and therefore who he decides to sleep with isn't really the business of Xander, Willow, or Buffy.

KingofCretins
22-02-09, 09:47 PM
I'm not sure what you are saying here. There are examples of relationships that should not happen because it would upset other people? I recall you mentioning Buffy/Olivia.

I've used a half dozen or more from Buffy and other shows as well, and also constructed a hypothetical with generic names. Keith Mars sleeping with someone Veronica Mars goes to school with. How about Dr. Huxtable sleeping with Denise's college roommate? How about Xander sleeping with Joyce? How about Buffy sleeping with Ethan?

This is beyond academic if we were looking at *any* other context -- there are "rules" for all people about who are "off-limits" if you expect to maintain a relationship with someone. You don't date best friends. You don't date an ex-wife or ex-husband. You don't date someone's divorced parent! Why are all these self-evident rules of maintaining good friendships and family relationships suddenly ignored because there's some vague, fanfic inspired notion that Faith and Giles would be hot together.


Try this on: If it were the case that Faith really could be truly happy with Giles in a special way, not possible with any other, and the same were true of GIles with respect to Faith, would you still insist that they walk away from the big love of their lives because it might upset Buffy? What I'm missing here is any sense of proportion from you. Like the whole thing is all about Buffy and has nothing to do with how anyone else might feel or how it might affect their lives.

Not a very meaningful question, since I doubt Faith could wear a sign that Buffy could read that says "I'm happy with Giles and can't possibly be happy with anyone else". It's an abstract condition of which the person in question, Buffy, could never actually be aware.


That said, I think it's less likely rather than more likely that they'll go in this direction. If they do, I doubt it will be any kind of major plot point. Just something that's happening.

If they do, it couldn't *not* be a major plot point unless they were just going to ignore anything resembling actual human interaction.

XavierZane
22-02-09, 10:14 PM
I've used a half dozen or more from Buffy and other shows as well, and also constructed a hypothetical with generic names. Keith Mars sleeping with someone Veronica Mars goes to school with. How about Dr. Huxtable sleeping with Denise's college roommate? How about Xander sleeping with Joyce? How about Buffy sleeping with Ethan?

This is beyond academic if we were looking at *any* other context -- there are "rules" for all people about who are "off-limits" if you expect to maintain a relationship with someone. You don't date best friends. You don't date an ex-wife or ex-husband. You don't date someone's divorced parent! Why are all these self-evident rules of maintaining good friendships and family relationships suddenly ignored because there's some vague, fanfic inspired notion that Faith and Giles would be hot together.

I imagine that you also don't date the person who has killed the love of your "surrogate father's" life, or someone who attempted to kill your best friend. So your attempts to apply real-world strictures to this are ridiculous.

I also disagree with your supposed rules when applied to the actual world. Maybe that's the worldview you've been taught or have adopted, but your beliefs aren't absolute. I believe that if two people are in love, they should be together, unless there are legal reasons to prevent them being together. Not moral or social. Anybody who feels injured by their being together has to either refuse to cope with it and become alienated from them, or has to find a way to cope.

Maggie
22-02-09, 10:21 PM
I've used a half dozen or more from Buffy and other shows as well, and also constructed a hypothetical with generic names. Keith Mars sleeping with someone Veronica Mars goes to school with. How about Dr. Huxtable sleeping with Denise's college roommate? How about Xander sleeping with Joyce? How about Buffy sleeping with Ethan?

I haven't seen Veronica Mars. If Dr. Huxtable were widowed and alone, then why not? Xander and Joyce is a bit squicky, but because they had a mother/son vibe to them already... nothing to do with Buffy. Ethan, assuming it was some actually decent version of Ethan, why not? Better example would be some decent friend of Giles, and again, why not?


This is beyond academic if we were looking at *any* other context -- there are "rules" for all people about who are "off-limits" if you expect to maintain a relationship with someone. You don't date best friends. You don't date an ex-wife or ex-husband. You don't date someone's divorced parent! Why are all these self-evident rules of maintaining good friendships and family relationships suddenly ignored because there's some vague, fanfic inspired notion that Faith and Giles would be hot together.

Again your examples aren't fully intelligible. Whose best friend? Whose ex-wife or ex-husband? Divorced people with children get remarried all the time, so you can't mean that as a general rule. etc. etc. These are not self-evident rules. I think whether it works or not depends on what the prior relationships all around are. And frankly I think people can be pretty flexible.

I've never read Faith/Giles fanfic. Is there such a thing? I liked them together in NFFY which is the first time it crossed my mind. Since I like both characters separately and have always wished them well, it struck me as a nice thought. And it never crossed my mind that because Giles was formerly Buffy's watcher that meant that he couldn't hook up with someone Buffy hasn't regarded as a friend in years. Faith was out of Sunnydale for four years before briefly coming back in the middle of a crisis; she's been out essentially alone in Cleveland ever since. Buffy hasn't, so far as we can see, been in any kind of contact with her, and was more than happy to jump to nasty conclusions about her. So no love lost there. Giles knows Faith is a button for Buffy and that might cause him to not go in that direction. But since Buffy needs to get over her Faith issues, I could also see him deciding not to cater to them.



Not a very meaningful question, since I doubt Faith could wear a sign that Buffy could read that says "I'm happy with Giles and can't possibly be happy with anyone else". It's an abstract condition of which the person in question, Buffy, could never actually be aware.

If Buffy and Giles are so emotionally distanced that Buffy would have no way of finding out or figuring out what Faith means to Giles then there's even less reason why either Faith or Giles should sacrifice their own happiness to assuage Buffy's supposed problems about this. I know when the people I love and care about are happy in a relationship. I want them to be happy in their relationships. Happiness is a good thing. There should be more of it.


If they do, it couldn't *not* be a major plot point unless they were just going to ignore anything resembling actual human interaction.

Well, we disagree about what actual human interaction actually is. So if they went down this road they wouldn't be ignoring anything in my book and apparently plenty in yours.

Maybe they'll keep it ambiguous like Steed and Peel!! Everybody's a winner.

Emmie
22-02-09, 10:25 PM
I imagine that you also don't date the person who has killed the love of your "surrogate father's" life, or someone who attempted to kill your best friend. So your attempts to apply real-world strictures to this are ridiculous.

I also disagree with your supposed rules when applied to the actual world. Maybe that's the worldview you've been taught or have adopted, but your beliefs aren't absolute. I believe that if two people are in love, they should be together, unless there are legal reasons to prevent them being together. Not moral or social. Anybody who feels injured by their being together has to either refuse to cope with it and become alienated from them, or has to find a way to cope.

The point of that was that Buffy being with Angel again post-Becoming hurt Giles terribly. That's the point. Giles confronted her and reminded her that Angelus had tortured him for hours. This goes to show that Giles above anyone else is sensitive to how romantic relationships affect others. Giles wanted Buffy to consider his feelings when she got back together with Angel and was hurt/disapproving that she put his feelings aside.

The point of that example only reinforces that Buffy and Giles' relationship is central to any potential hook-up between Giles and Faith. Just because Buffy was incredibly insensitive and reckless when she was 17 (come on!) and then seriously depressed and traumatized when she slept with Spike doesn't equate to the Giles/Faith situation. Giles is an adult and he's not suffering from being ripped out of heaven.

If Giles does sleep with Faith and they begin a relationship, this will only serve to tell me how great the divide between him and Buffy has grown. By sleeping with Faith, he's not caring about how it would affect Buffy. Her feelings and her relationship with him aren't important enough to factor into this decision.

Maggie
22-02-09, 10:41 PM
The point of that was that Buffy being with Angel again post-Becoming hurt Giles terribly. That's the point. Giles confronted her and reminded her that Angelus had tortured him for hours. This goes to show that Giles above anyone else is sensitive to how romantic relationships affect others. Giles wanted Buffy to consider his feelings when she got back together with Angel and was hurt/disapproving that she put his feelings aside.

I read Giles as being primarily upset because Buffy kept Angel's return a secret from Giles. He had further reason to be concerned because if Buffy got careless, very bad things could result. And even with *all* of that, nobody ultimately said to Buffy that it was a make or break deal. They expressed their feelings. Buffy expressed hers. And on they went. Not sure why the same couldn't happen here.

They are grown-ups, aren't they? Even more than they were back then.

Sosa lola
22-02-09, 10:41 PM
If Giles does sleep with Faith and they begin a relationship, this will only serve to tell me how great the divide between him and Buffy has grown. By sleeping with Faith, he's not caring about how it would affect Buffy. Her feelings and her relationship with him aren't important enough to factor into this decision.

But what about Giles and his feelings? Sure, it'll hurt Buffy, but she's an adult, she'll get over it if Giles was happy. Giles shouldn't throw a good thing because it'll upset Buffy. If it was okay for Buffy to date whomever she wanted without considering the feelings of others, then why can't Giles?

For example, Buffy slept with Spike knowing how much it'll upset Xander, but most of fans' reaction is "To hell with Xander! Buffy's happiness is what matters." Why can't we think the same with Giles?

Enisy
22-02-09, 11:12 PM
I don't know a thing about Steed and Peel, but to be fair, the other parallel was Henry Higgins and Eliza Doolittle, which... romance.

KingofCretins
23-02-09, 12:06 AM
I imagine that you also don't date the person who has killed the love of your "surrogate father's" life, or someone who attempted to kill your best friend. So your attempts to apply real-world strictures to this are ridiculous.

Why? The Faith/Giles thing corresponds to real-life situations, so why shouldn't real world strictures apply? I'm sorry that there are no real life strictures that apply to dating vampires, but that's not actually a problem I have to resolve. The mores and etiquette of dating vampires is something the writers can just make up without offending realism. The etiquette of parent figures dating your friends is not. That's premised in real life, and in real life it's skanky.


I haven't seen Veronica Mars. If Dr. Huxtable were widowed and alone, then why not? Xander and Joyce is a bit squicky, but because they had a mother/son vibe to them already... nothing to do with Buffy. Ethan, assuming it was some actually decent version of Ethan, why not? Better example would be some decent friend of Giles, and again, why not?

Mother/son vibe when, when he was having a sexual fantasy about her or when she was hitting on him under a spell? Applying the apparent lack of consideration of anybody's feelings, Buffy would have just had to suck it up.

Incidentally, these real-life, civilized people rules about who is "off limits" are why I always figured that Buffy/Xander or Xander/Dawn would permanently exclude the other from ever happening, because nobody involve would feel okay with him having dated *both* of them.

vampmogs
23-02-09, 12:09 AM
I *don't* think it was demonstrably 'shippy in "The Long Way Home" -- it was made incrementally 'shippy up until it was, in 8.11, textually 'shippy. That's another reason why Faith/Giles doesn't work, at all, in any way -- it isn't demonstrably 'shippy, they leave for a few months, and when they reappear they're just... sleeping together? Random, non sequitur, weak sauce.

Xander/Renee wasn't "demonstrably shippy" in 'The Long Way Home?' How else do you read their flirting in their opening scene together, Renee's smirk tells us everything, as does the scene where Xander comes to the bedside. I don't think it could be any more obvious to tell you the truth? It was hardly subtle, the only thing making people question it was that they were also getting Bander vibes so they were confused.


When you put it that way... it's actually even worse. Because, you're right, the subtext was that Buffy thought Giles didn't trust her and did trust Faith. That her surrogate father had replaced her with Faith. So if they turn out to be sleeping together, what is the subtext of the Buffy/Giles relationship all of the sudden?

Subtext is just that, *subtext* it's not literal and it's only one level to a relationship. Buffy/Faith worked on many different levels, a sistery level and and also one one level they had the lesbian subtext going on. Does the fact that they can be read as both sisters and lovers mean literal incest, hardly, because it's just subtext.


Yes, "forming" an attachment would suggest that there is actually some process of formation taking place. That would not be even arguably the case here. PWP? Well, we have the sex, we lack the plot foundation for it... there we are.

We left Giles/Faith months ago, possibly longer in the Buffyverse time line, do we honestly expect developments not to have happened between them in all the time we haven't been privy to their blossoming relationship? As long as they make it believable and get across an understanding of how it developed it doesn't matter that we didn't see it develop.



If Giles were the actual father of anybody on the show, then your point might have some small amount of validity, made especially small because Buffy is twenty-four at this point and not fourteen. But Giles is not anybody's father on this show, and therefore who he decides to sleep with isn't really the business of Xander, Willow, or Buffy.

Agreed! People have taken this idea of Giles being a "surrogate father" and made it literal, as if he is her father and should act accordingly to that role. He isn't, he never has been, he's had a "father's love for the child" but that is it. He's a grown man with his own life and you're absolutely correct, it really isn't the business of Xander, Willow or Buffy. Especially when Buffy's decided that her business is no longer his business.



If Buffy and Giles are so emotionally distanced that Buffy would have no way of finding out or figuring out what Faith means to Giles then there's even less reason why either Faith or Giles should sacrifice their own happiness to assuage Buffy's supposed problems about this.

That's exactly what I've been saying. I could see people's POV if this took place when Buffy/Giles were still really close but they aren't right now and as far as Giles is aware there's no upcoming plans for them to be. Why would he make decisions on his life based around a girl who isn't in his life anymore? It's ridiculous to expect that of him.



If Giles does sleep with Faith and they begin a relationship, this will only serve to tell me how great the divide between him and Buffy has grown. By sleeping with Faith, he's not caring about how it would affect Buffy. Her feelings and her relationship with him aren't important enough to factor into this decision.

Or maybe they are and he's just decided it isn't the only thing worth taking into consideration? As Maggie has pointed out, Buffy is fuming they were even working together and when Faith asks how their partnership is going to sit with his "home girl" Giles responds that he doesn't know as they aren't on speaking terms anymore. It's exactly the same if it developed into a romantic relationship, either way Buffy's pissed Giles/Faith are together either platonically or romantically and Giles/Faith created a partnership regardless. Which nobody faulted them for at the time because wether Buffy is angry or not, her feelings shouldn't dictate how Faith/Giles spend their lives when they aren't even close to her.

KingofCretins
23-02-09, 12:20 AM
Seriously, just not going to bother with this anymore. Maybe the truly in character and logical thing will happen and all the major characters will just have a big orgy and the next day be perfectly back to normal -- since we're not worried about how real people would react to changes in their relationships at all anymore. The quote that comes to mind is from the "Firefly" episode "Jaynestown" -- "this must be what going mad feels like".

Vampmogs, what you call their "flirting" in the opening scene would mean that Mal and Zoe are flirting a whole lot in "Firefly" -- people can banter without sexual undertones.

Buffy, already dealing with the idea that Giles "upgraded" to Faith as both watcher and father figure would be perfectly reasonable to conclude that if he's sleeping with her, that's a role he would have liked to have had with Buffy, too.

vampmogs
23-02-09, 12:33 AM
Vampmogs, what you call their "flirting" in the opening scene would mean that Mal and Zoe are flirting a whole lot in "Firefly" -- people can banter without sexual undertones.

I thought it was fairly obvious and I remember at the time so did the majority of the people, and hey they were right because there was sexual undertones in that scene because they were in fact shippy. Mal does not tell Zoe, "don't call me sir, call me Mal." Jeanty did a great job at showing it all over their faces, with Renee's smile and Xander's smile over his shoulder. And in Issue #2 the other slayer on the graveyard shift comes out and says it to Renee so I really don't know how they could demonstrate it anymore that it was in the works. I don’t seem to recall anyone going “wtf?” when Issue #11 came about and Buffy told Xander to ask out Renee, because it was pretty obvious something was going on between them from the very start.


Buffy, already dealing with the idea that Giles "upgraded" to Faith as both watcher and father figure would be perfectly reasonable to conclude that if he's sleeping with her, that's a role he would have liked to have had with Buffy, too.

Preposterous. As preposterous as Spike's claim in 'Wrecked' that "vampires get Buffy hot" because she'd now slept with two of them. Every person and every relationship is individual and different to another and come about for different reasons. As someone who defends constantly the idea that Buffy "needs some monster in her man" against those who think she does because she's had two relationships with vampires, I find it very surprising you take this viewpoint and believe that because Giles may end up having a relationship with a slayer that becomes sexual, he automatically wanted that with Buffy as well. How absurd.

KingofCretins
23-02-09, 12:36 AM
Nothing gets more absurd than the underlying idea of Giles/Faith. Everything else that can even come up in this thread are just deckchairs on the titanic of the ludicrousness of that idea.

Nobody went "WTF" in 8.11 precisely BECAUSE there was 8.01, *then* 8.03, *then* 8.06, etc. There was an actual progression of events. Not "I'm going to help you on your mission", 15 issues, and then "we're sleeping together". That's not even "WTF" anymore, that's "lolwut?"

vampmogs
23-02-09, 12:43 AM
Nothing gets more absurd than the underlying idea of Giles/Faith. Everything else that can even come up in this thread are just deckchairs on the titanic of the ludicrousness of that idea.

I'm sorry but saying that if Giles got with Faith it meant that he really wanted to get with Buffy is more absurd, a lot more absurd. And as someone who keeps driving home the “surrogate father” angle with *Buffy/Giles* I can’t even see how you believe what you’re saying here because it completely contradicts the things you were arguing earlier in the thread.


Nobody went "WTF" in 8.11 precisely BECAUSE there was 8.01, *then* 8.03, *then* 8.06, etc. There was an actual progression of events. Not "I'm going to help you on your mission", 15 issues, and then "we're sleeping together". That's not even "WTF" anymore, that's "lolwut?"

As I said, there has been a lot of time passed for Faith/Giles which we as the audience aren’t privy to witnessing, if anybody expected their relationship to stall and not grow in anyway from Issue #9 until now in either a platonic or romantic sense, they are expecting way too much. As long as they could make it believable in the issue and wrote it in a way that the audience can see how it developed from where we left them in ‘No Future For You’ until now, it doesn’t matter we weren’t witness to it.

Chace
23-02-09, 01:46 AM
Comic Book Resources > CBR News: Jim Krueger Slays Vampires Buffy-Style (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=20112)

“This is all about Faith and Giles...from there, Faith and Giles go to investigate, and some really bad things happen.”

So, they either SEE something really horrible (maybe they see Twilight doing something?), or they boink? If so...then gross! But plenty of story possibilities there! LMAO!! And I still think "Twilight" might be the manifestation of Ripper (magic) and Glory (strength), representing Giles subverted, subconsciously, repressed desire for power. The voice distorted could be used to mask his British accent. Glory also told Buffy "you can't kill me", but the scoobies ascertained that with Ben dead, Glory doesn't have a host and cannot exist because she will die. We know Glory is dead because we've seen the first impersonate her briefly, but Warren also "died" for a split second when Willow killed him before Amy revived him, so maybe Glory transfered her essence into a new host at the moment of death and has been resting dormant within Giles this whole time, as has Ripper?

vampmogs
23-02-09, 02:05 AM
Glory had no control over where he essence was placed, that's why it was a punishment. It wasn't her choice to have to share a body with Ben so why would she suddenly have that ability now?

Ripper isn’t another identity either, it’s just a name Giles used to go by, a nickname, not a completely different person. He’s not a being created by magic, he was a man- the same man as Giles who just used magic’s. Like Giles does sometimes after he stops calling himself “Ripper.” There is no dichotomy between Giles/Ripper, he just went by two different names. It's like saying if a friend gave you a nickname only they call you by (like Ethan did to Giles) that nickname somehow manifests into a completely different person? It doesn't make sense. "Cordelia" and "Cordy" aren't two different people, "Rupert" and "Giles" aren't two different people, "Xander" and "Alexander" aren't two differnent people, "Buffy" and "Buff" aren't two different people- that's all Ripper is, a nickname.

Wolfie Gilmore
23-02-09, 11:25 AM
If Giles came into this thread right now I think he'd feel a little like Buffy in intervention, being accused of sleeping with Spike :D (Then again, buffy did go on to sleep with Spike so perhaps that's not the best example).

I don't think they're going to get it on, and I certainly don't think we've had any hints beyond Giles thinking Faith is hot in a revealing dress which...well, as Xander said, if a man's looking at your breasts, it just means his eyes are open :D

Bloodsucker
23-02-09, 12:15 PM
Good post, Wolfie. :lol: And one can think a woman looks pretty without making actual shagging plans. Yes, ladies, it has indeed happened! :)


I must say I'm a bit surprised at how some people would regard Giles/Faith as a crime and "against the rules". Objectively viewed, there are no breached rules in this at all.
The viewpoints some characters would take on it are something entirely different of course, but just that Buffy would not like the idea at all does not make it a heinous felony ethics-wise. We should strictly differentiate between the subjective feelings of other characters and the general moral "possible-ness" of it.

That said, I don't really like the idea, not because of some bigot sense of "oh how gross" or some morally constructed theory that doesn't allow it, but rather because I can't really imagine it because of the way the characters were shown to the audience until now. Personally I see a certain incompatibility there. Yet if the writers make it believable (if it happens at all, that is; I didn't see any "shippy" subtext in that announcement personally)... well then, go ahead. Not that I care much since I'm not much into either of them. (Well, looks-wise I'm into Faith, but I'm talking character-wise here. Yes, I can judge characters using body parts above the belt, go figure. :))

vampmogs
23-02-09, 12:23 PM
You're not into either Giles or Faith!!! ... we can't be friends anymore ;)

Yeah it probably won't happen the only think that makes me question it is the way Darkhorse is advertising this issue, that's what keeps nagging me.

Bloodsucker
23-02-09, 12:26 PM
Heh, I do like them (that is, I like Faith after she has changed, I loathed her until she had her redeeming scenes when I first saw it), I'm just not as much into them like I'm into Angel and Spike, for example (in a non-poncy way, mind you :lol:, and like I feel for Buffy.
Better now? Or do we still have to duel or something? ;)

Let's try to stay calm, then, and wait for that issue... :)

vampmogs
23-02-09, 12:36 PM
Heh, I do like them (that is, I like Faith after she has changed, I loathed her until she had her redeeming scenes when I first saw it), I'm just not as much into them like I'm into Angel and Spike, for example (in a non-poncy way, mind you :lol:, and like I feel for Buffy.
Better now? Or do we still have to duel or something? ;)

:lol: I was joking you evil Faith/Giles hater! :lol:


Let's try to stay calm, then, and wait for that issue... :)

Now that's an idea! It'd be very funny if we get our hands on the issue and there's no Faith/Giles romance, considering all the debate it'll just make me squee! But a part of me kinda wishes there is one.. just because I wasted so much time arguing why it isn't that bad and actually kind of warmed to the idea! I'd actually be more interested in this than either Buffy/Satsu, Willow/Kennedy or Xander/Renee believe it or not :roll:

Bloodsucker
23-02-09, 12:45 PM
Yeees, Giles is totally old so any of his romantic interests is reeeaaally gross. :p

Well, one can argue that it has more conflict potential than any of the 'ships you named, so I can see why more interesting.
Still, personally I hope it won't happen, for the reasons given above.

Sosa lola
23-02-09, 01:23 PM
Bloodsucker, I don't want Faith and Giles to end up together for the same reason why I don't want Buffy and Xander to end up together. I prefer friendships over romantic relationships. I find Buffy's relationship with Xander (and Giles before S7) far stronger, more special, interesting and beautiful than hers with her boyfriends. Xander, for example, proved that the saying "Boyfriends come and go, but friends are for life" to be right on so many levels. :lol:

I think Faith and Giles' partnership is so unique and fascinating for the reasons the writer had said, and them jumping into bed and sexing each other up would ruin the beauty of their relationship. As for what Buffy feels about them hooking up in a romantic sense, I could care less. If her friends were supposed to be grown ups about her relationships with vampires, then so should she about theirs. And so far, Buffy had always been supportive about every relationship of her friends', so I think she'll eventually accept Faith/Giles if it made him happy.

Bloodsucker
23-02-09, 01:26 PM
I agree with you about Xander and Buffy. That's also the reason why I did not like Angel/Cordelia so much, I just liked the friendship that had developed and did not find this "suddenly making them want to be together" necessary.
As for Faith and Giles, I have not really seen yet how they work together, so can't say much.

Maggie
23-02-09, 02:44 PM
I'm on the fence about wanting a friendship or wanting a relationship. I think the friendship is very cool, but I don't see that it's going beyond the platonic would somehow mar the specialness of the relationship. The reason I'm on the fence is that I'm not quite sure I can see Giles being romantically attracted to Faith. She's like Jenny in being a younger, feisty brunette. But not nearly as smart (or better, not nearly as well-educated). And Jenny needed the smart to push back on Giles in a way that was challenging to him. OTOH, I've just kind of wanted both these characters to get some loving. And if they are trotting around the world saving slayers, then their only real shot is each other -- and they established a really good rapport between them in NFFY.

Boltmaiden
23-02-09, 03:55 PM
I obviously am coming into this thread late but for my part I too am shocked by the many vicious reactions I am seeing at something that is a possibilty at the moment...nothing more.

Just for my quick two cents, I didn't really see a romantic vibe, but their dynamic is very different from Buffy/Giles which makes it very interesting and complex in it's own right.

Now just going with the idea of them hooking up, I would be surprised...yet it wouldn't be as farfetched when you look at the characters and where they are at the moment.

As others have already stated, both of them have been rejected by Buffy. Now I am not saying that Buffy doesn't have her reasons but she is extremely special and important to both of them and it has to be very hard for both of them to cope with where things are with her at the moment.

Estranged or not, there is nothing that could convince me other wise that Giles would do anything for Buffy,including making a choice that would make her react like she is now but deal with the consequences because his happiness and success is always second to hers. So moving into an outside the box relationship (even if in the ironic sense it would hurt Buffy more) makes sense to me.

And Faith has to be really sad and disappointed that she and Buffy are back to a situation where Buffy finds her untrustworthy...Faith wants Buffy to accept her and be proud of her...right now that is not happening.

They both appear to be pretty lonely and are suffering from Buffy's rejection...is sleeping together a way to make things worse? Absolutely...but with the above mentioned I do think it could be understood why they would turn to each other in that way.

Faith is a highly sexual person, and I really don't believe age would bother her. She is also prone to living in the moment and thus with the right thing happening I could believe she would sleep with Giles. It is the easiest way for her to connect with someone. To me Giles is the x-factor, he would think of the consequences before Faith would and be worried of taking advantage of her etc.

Also if you think about how much Faith is not use to be respected(she lost respect from Buffy), she has kept it with Angel and seems to be developing it with Giles, I could see that being a factor for Faith as well.

And Giles might be refreshed to be having a relationship with someone on an adult level because even though all of the scoobies are adults now,Giles still has tones of a patriarch...but not really with Faith. So they converse without that hanging over him and it could be refreshing for Giles.

Honestly the only hang up I see in a long term capacity is the fact that intellectually Giles seems interested in different things than Faith. So I could buy into a brief affair where two people find an unlikely bond, it becomes physical but ends up being just a really strong friend/collegue(spelling?) relationship who have helped each other through some lonely and dark times.

So in any way they want to go with them, I am okay with it because I find them fascinating seperate or together(in any fashion)and think it is going to be an interesting journey.

No travesties what so ever.

Wolfie Gilmore
23-02-09, 03:58 PM
I don't see them shagging or not shagging as a particularly big deal, though I think it woudl be nice for Faith to have a relationship with a man that's not at all based on that, that's based merely on mutual respect. But there's no reason why mutual respect couldn't include mutual...other stuff I suppose. :D Perhaps she'd want to sleep with Giles to differentiate it from her relationship with the mayor? She's already had the bad daddy figure, and she'd rather have a shaggable equal?

Bloodsucker
23-02-09, 04:11 PM
Having a relationship at all would be kind of a new thing to her, wouldn't it? All she had of relationships 'til now was the shagging part, after all...

Bittersweettwit
23-02-09, 04:33 PM
Buffy, already dealing with the idea that Giles "upgraded" to Faith as both watcher and father figure would be perfectly reasonable to conclude that if he's sleeping with her, that's a role he would have liked to have had with Buffy, too

I'm going to have to agree with Vampmogs on this particular issue! It's such a ludicrous thing to say that because Giles wishes to pursue a particular relationship with Faith that he must have wanted this with Buffy. While I don't think they should get together. I am enjoying their relationship and feel that such a statement completely undermines this. As the way I understand what your saying is, that Giles is only friends with Faith because he can't be with Buffy right now and that he would ditch her as soon as he was given the chance. :(

Although I do have to agree about how sudden the relationship would be if they pursued that in this issue. Personally, I think if they have to go down the road of Faith/Giles it would be much better if in this issue they lay down the first signs of a relationship such as basic flirtation rather than throwing us right into a relationship between two characters who have known eachother for six years now and have shown no indication of a relationship before.


Glory had no control over where he essence was placed, that's why it was a punishment. It wasn't her choice to have to share a body with Ben so why would she suddenly have that ability now?

While I don't really feel this is what is going to happen. I'm gonna play devil's advocate and say that, if they were going to go down that particular route. It would actually make sense that Giles would be the one possessed by Glory. After all he was the one to kill Ben and as a result the closest to Glory and Ben when he died. It only makes sense that her essence, or whatever you wish to call it would hop into the nearest body without her having any say on the matter.

Emmie
23-02-09, 05:38 PM
I doubt this will put a kabosh on the opened doors of Faith/Giles 'shipper love (something I'd never heard of til this interview), but I've been told that the hook-up is definitely, absolutely 100% not happening in #24 from DH Editor Scott Allie. So all those who were fans of it might need to find refuge in fanfiction for the Faith/Giles sex/romance/what-have-you possibilities. It's not happening in canon - "it ain't there."

KingofCretins
23-02-09, 06:34 PM
All defenses aside, I really would be surprised if many people are actively disappointed by this. Any way you slice it, it would distract from the storyline. Thanks for sharing that Emmie.

Emmie
23-02-09, 06:46 PM
Happy to oblige. :)

I really do think it would have been an incredible distraction to the main story.

Bittersweettwit
23-02-09, 07:03 PM
I doubt this will put a kabosh on the opened doors of Faith/Giles 'shipper love (something I'd never heard of til this interview), but I've been told that the hook-up is definitely, absolutely 100% not happening in #24 from DH Editor Scott Allie. So all those who were fans of it might need to find refuge in fanfiction for the Faith/Giles sex/romance/what-have-you possibilities. It's not happening in canon - "it ain't there."

Honestly, I'm pretty glad to hear this for reasons I've already said previously :p. Has he told you that it definitely won't be happening at all during the course of Season 8, or just during this issue? Personally if they are planning on going down this road at some stage, I would like to see the foundations of such a relationship placed in this issue so that when they do get to it. It isn't as sudden and idiotic seeming, as it would have been. Had they pursued this storyline for #24.

Emmie
23-02-09, 07:23 PM
He was very emphatic about it not happening. There was also a bit of a 'hamnoo?' quality to his response. He seemed really shocked by the speculation in a 'where the hizzy did that come from?' way.

"There's not even a suggestion of that in the comic."

Bittersweettwit
23-02-09, 07:29 PM
Excellent! That was all I wanted to know! Thank you very much Emmie for letting us know this :)

So now that argument is broken up heres a few questions for everyone

What do you want to see happen to Faith and Giles during this issue? Do you want their plot to develop further away from the Scoobie Gang, or would you like to see both moved back closer to them?

Would you like to see a slayer or two that Faith and Giles have saved from the brink in the role they assigned to themselves at the end of 'No Future For You'?

KingofCretins
23-02-09, 07:34 PM
To me, the best parallel for Faith and Giles was Angel at the end of "Epiphany" -- Angel asking Wes, Cordy, and Gunn for a job, because they had the mission and he didn't. Giles was the man who didn't have the mission anymore, he wasn't fighting the good fight, he was fighting a vicious, pragmatic fight. He wrote off Genevieve, Faith tried to save her. Faith tried to be for her what Angel was to Faith, and it impressed Giles enough to bring him in line. I like the idea of a team between them because it could be a sort of combination of both Angel and Faith's own relationship and Giles and Buffy's.

I definitely would love to see that their "Sanctuary" is more than just a home for wayward girls, and is a place where Slayers have their own, entirely different mission, that contrasts from Buffy's organization.

Sosa lola
23-02-09, 10:01 PM
I doubt this will put a kabosh on the opened doors of Faith/Giles 'shipper love (something I'd never heard of til this interview), but I've been told that the hook-up is definitely, absolutely 100% not happening in #24 from DH Editor Scott Allie. So all those who were fans of it might need to find refuge in fanfiction for the Faith/Giles sex/romance/what-have-you possibilities. It's not happening in canon - "it ain't there."

I knew it won't happen :lol: Scott must have been as shocked as I was when fans started debating about it.

vampmogs
23-02-09, 10:11 PM
Thanks Emmie! :)

Damn.. and I was just starting to like the idea... :p

Thanks for the questions VampMaster;

What do you want to see happen to Faith and Giles during this issue? Do you want their plot to develop further away from the Scoobie Gang, or would you like to see both moved back closer to them?

I'd like this issue to be solely about them and their bond and their mission but at the end I would be happy if it suggested that they need to go back to the Scoobies. The blurb says something about something terrible happened so I'd envision a situation where both characters realise the war is coming and it's getting two big for just the two of them.

Would you like to see a slayer or two that Faith and Giles have saved from the brink in the role they assigned to themselves at the end of 'No Future For You'?

Yeah that's a nice idea, or at least hear about it. But I'm getting the impression that maybe things haven't been going well for Giles/Faith's new mission and that perhaps they may have not been all that successful.

Maggie
24-02-09, 01:18 AM
Well, it would have been fun -- though probably too much trauma-drama in the fandom to be worth it. I'll be more than happy enough if we find them getting along well.

There are so many interesting possibilities. I like the good mirror of the mission idea. But so many directions to go if they're dealing with something terrible. A realization that one of Buffy's slayers needs saving? Twilight mucking things up somehow? Getting hunted down by riled up humans (and please, oh please, no character death here!!)? I'm really looking forward to this issue.

vampmogs
24-02-09, 01:29 AM
Yeah when he said, "and some really bad things happen" I immediately thought "please don't kill off Faith or Giles." :err:

I doubt they will but I can't help but worry, I remember after reading the end of Issue #8 when Faith was lying on the side of the pool all alone that I thought she was going to die, I was so relieved when she didn't. They've given the impression Giles will be back with the Scoobs eventually so I don't worry about him, but I do worry a bit about Faith. :(

XavierZane
24-02-09, 03:04 AM
Kinda sad to see the idea being put so starkly down. I'm not exactly a Giles/Faith shipper, but I definitely wasn't adverse to the idea. Giles/Faith definitely has been around long before this. Here's a really good Giles/Faith fic for anybody who's interested: http://sahiya.livejournal.com/473459.html

What I want to know is this: Why, at this juncture, did we need to know one way or another whether or not Giles and Faith are going to be sleeping together? The issue isn't even out yet, and the speculation is just killed?

Emmie
24-02-09, 03:37 AM
What I want to know is this: Why, at this juncture, did we need to know one way or another whether or not Giles and Faith are going to be sleeping together? The issue isn't even out yet, and the speculation is just killed?

Well, you can blame me for that if you're really upset about the killing of speculation. I went to find out and I thought other people might be interested. I probably should have spoiler-tagged it. So yeah, my fault there.

Signed,
Emmie aka Speculation-Killer

vampmogs
24-02-09, 03:39 AM
I think XavierZane was probably wondering more why Allie nipped this one in the bud when usually they pretty much leave fans hanging on any speculation concerning the season.

Maybe he's tricking us! Lets start speculating about that! :D

KingofCretins
24-02-09, 03:46 AM
Were you really excited to keep that argument going for another couple months? I mean, you could start a thread about the hypothetical if you *really* want to keep arguing about it.

I imagine he felt okay ending speculation because they'd never meant for us to speculate on it in the first place. It's not a "who is Twilight"/"what will Dawn turn into"/"what's with Saga Vasuki" thing. Just like they "ended speculation" that Twilight wasn't male.

vampmogs
24-02-09, 09:37 AM
I imagine he felt okay ending speculation because they'd never meant for us to speculate on it in the first place. It's not a "who is Twilight"/"what will Dawn turn into"/"what's with Saga Vasuki" thing. Just like they "ended speculation" that Twilight wasn't male.

Fans speculate about anything, we've speculated about a hell of a lot of stuff that never came up in season eight and probably never will, usually they don't seem to care enough to step in and settle the discussion for us.

But Emmie did approach him which is probably what makes it different.

Maggie
24-02-09, 04:14 PM
I can see where they'd want to stop this one -- at least some of the fans were really upset by the idea.

But I woke up this morning thinking it would be really cool if they actually do play this like the Avengers. If you didn't want to see them as having a thing, you didn't have to. If you did, there were enough hints for you to think you weren't making it up. Sort of like some of us can look at NFFY and see a whiff of shippyness in the offfing, and others can say they saw nothing of the sort. And on that theory, Allie is just the sort of fan who saw nothing of the sort. So I'm rooting for Giles to really and truly be Steed to Faith's Peel, plausible deniability and all.

A question about the fandom. A lot of people do ship Giles and Anya. Does that idea cause the same sort of loathing in some that Faith/Giles coughed up? I'm just curious...it would seem to have some of the incest-y overtones that bothered people so much.

KingofCretins
24-02-09, 04:40 PM
Well, we'd have gotten that fistfight that was put on hold back in "Becoming, Part I" pretty damn fast. I guess if you'd have been cool with Xander dating Jenny, had she survived and broken up with Giles. You still seem stuck on the notion that any of this was about an "incest-y overtones", when it was always and only about dating people with whom people you care about have close relationships and ignoring the awkwardness.

Bittersweettwit
24-02-09, 04:49 PM
A question about the fandom. A lot of people do ship Giles and Anya. Does that idea cause the same sort of loathing in some that Faith/Giles coughed up? I'm just curious...it would seem to have some of the incest-y overtones that bothered people so much.

That's a good question Maggie! For me personally I have no problem with Anya and Giles getting together other than the awkward situation that would create with Xander, but even then I think Xander should learn to accept it. Unlike King who's problem seems to be with the awkwardness for other character that Faith and Giles would cause, my own problem was with the mental and indeed physical differences in terms of the two characters maturity.

With Anya and Giles on the other hand I don't think that such a problem exists. Yes, while Anya was in some ways rather immature for someone over eleven hundred years old. I think she had a sense of wisdom and a certain type of maturity about her, which would make a potential relationship between the pair a benefical one for both. Rather than one in which only one of the two learns lessons from the other.

Maggie
24-02-09, 05:11 PM
That's a good question Maggie! For me personally I have no problem with Anya and Giles getting together other than the awkward situation that would create with Xander, but even then I think Xander should learn to accept it. Unlike King who's problem seems to be with the awkwardness for other character that Faith and Giles would cause, my own problem was with the mental and indeed physical differences in terms of the two characters maturity.

I'm with you all the way on this. My hesitation about Faith/Giles was that even though they declared equality at the end, Faith does still have a lot of growing up to do. Jenny was younger, too -- but much more together. I like where Faith is heading, but she isn't there yet.

Maggie
24-02-09, 05:14 PM
Well, we'd have gotten that fistfight that was put on hold back in "Becoming, Part I" pretty damn fast. I guess if you'd have been cool with Xander dating Jenny, had she survived and broken up with Giles. You still seem stuck on the notion that any of this was about an "incest-y overtones", when it was always and only about dating people with whom people you care about have close relationships and ignoring the awkwardness.

In other words, your answer to my question is "yes, Ganya poses the same problems." That's the information I was looking for. Thanks.

KingofCretins
24-02-09, 05:56 PM
I liked the idea, I think Wolfie's proposed it before, that Giles is/was involved with one of the Doven, like Althanea. I know it's implausible that he could actually be involved with another woman over the age of 25 (Jenny easily was), but I think it suits him more, to date women other than his former students, or their friends or exes.

Michael
24-02-09, 07:04 PM
Anya did not find it strange to be engaged to Giles. In fact she was angry when she found his plane ticket.

Bittersweettwit
24-02-09, 07:11 PM
Anya did not find it strange to be engaged to Giles. In fact she was angry when she found his plane ticket.

Although I have no actual problem with the pairing, I don't think that particular example from 'Tabula Rasa' would be a good way of arguing in favour of the relationship. If you remember at the time both Anya and Giles were under a spell, and as of such unaware of any age difference between them, what type of personality the other had, or any of the things that would define for most people whether they would wish to puruse a relationship with someone. If anything that particular episode highlights problems the two would have. Even in their state of forgetfulness where they believed they were supposed to be in love, Giles and Anya still managed to get severely on eachothers nerves.

Oh and Maggie! You might want to combine your posts into one! I don't think the mods would approve much of double posting o.o

Michael
25-02-09, 12:22 AM
I am not seriously in favor of the pairing. In fact it would have been so entertaining that it would have distracted attention from anything else that was going on.

Charles
25-02-09, 02:01 AM
Wasn't ASH on record as saying he wasn't a fan of being involved with a younger woman/character or some such?

Enisy
25-02-09, 02:39 AM
He's said kissing Emma in Tabula Rasa was awkward, but he attributed that to their friendship rather than their age difference, if memory serves. Other than that, he's said he's stumbled upon some Giles/Willow and Giles/Buffy fanfiction, which he found weird but very flattering. :p

Bloodsucker
25-02-09, 01:18 PM
I think Giles and Anya were perfectly aware of the age gap between them in "Tabula Rasa", but did not pay it any heed since they assumed they were engaged and had taken that step for a reason. :)

Giles/Buffy and Giles/Willow... now that is weird, for my taste... (or, as Buffy says about the Buffy/Giles remark in Smashed, "GROSS, Spike!!" :lol:)

Michael
25-02-09, 02:34 PM
Anya would think it perfectly reasonable to marry an older man for his money.