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View Full Version : Buffy 8.22 "Swell" Spoiler Discussion Thread



Emmie
20-01-09, 02:36 AM
"Written by Steven S. DeKnight, penciled by Georges Jeanty, inked by Andy Owens, colored by Michelle Madsen, covers by Jo Chen and Jeanty.

Vampires are the hottest thing around -- forget hipsters; being a bloodsucking fiend is where's it's at! Slayers must take the good fight underground if they're to avoid any bad press from the general public.

When Kennedy is sent to Japan to evaluate Satsu's efforts as team leader, they are taken by surprise by some fierce furry creatures who want to do nothing more than destroy Buffy (surprise!), while Twilight remains the captain of the anti-Slayer ship. Steven S. DeKnight (Angel, Smallville, Dollhouse) teams with series artist Georges Jeanty in "Swell."

40 pages, $2.99, in stores on Feb. 4."

Previews are out for this issue!

http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq90/Slayalive_Comics/Buffy%20Season%208/Issue%2022%20Preview/0d5fe43a.jpg
http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq90/Slayalive_Comics/Buffy%20Season%208/Issue%2022%20Preview/65afa541.jpg
http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq90/Slayalive_Comics/Buffy%20Season%208/Issue%2022%20Preview/8a3f494e.jpg

KingofCretins
20-01-09, 02:45 AM
That is hysterically good fun so far. Man Kennedy has really turned into one of my... er, favorite... characters? This season? Hard formulate words sentence to make.

I get the feeling Kennedy has been down that road of hooking up with a tourist and getting burned before. It's a nice contrast to Kennedy and Willow how they both approach Satsu, and it's kinda why they work together. Kennedy is all about the tough love.

Loving Satsu's outfit, too :) She's hot, what can I say. I like Xander's taste in 5-some fantasies.

Emmie
20-01-09, 02:51 AM
I know! Isn't it hysterical? I'm loving the Kennedy/Satsu interaction. DeKnight is writing some quality dialogue here and I love how they so nonchalantly dropkick that demon. Hee!

And yeah, Satsu really is looking hot here. Especially in the 'putting on lip gloss panel'. I'm loving Kennedy and her tough love. She really has become a fantastic character in the comics. I'm pro-Kennedy. Yes sir!

Plus, I love how raunchy and suggestive the dialogue is so far.

XavierZane
20-01-09, 06:43 AM
Love it so far. The opening panel of Kennedy, her gun, and her parachute is great1

I've been a fan of Kennedy's since watching Season 7, so I love how popular she's becoming. I used to have to steel myself for Kennedy bashing in any Season 7 or Post-Chosen fanfic I read.

I like that Kennedy and Satsu already know each other, and pretty well it seems. They make good friends. :)

I cannot wait to find out what's in the bag.

Sacred Knight
20-01-09, 07:06 AM
Yowza, too bad Satsu plays for the other team.... ;)

Seriously though, love the artwork. And the interaction between the two is great, and I agree with the popular sentiment that Kennedy is so much more likeable in season 8. I'm a fan now and I couldn't stand her in season 7. And while it is definitely just natural and realistic progression that Satsu is being portrayed as having difficulties letting her two nights together with Buffy go, I still can't help but wonder if this is going to play further into the story. This issue will convince me either way though. If by the end of the issue Kennedy's words hit home and she comes to a sorrowful acceptance of things, I'll consider the Satsu-in-love angle done. If things are left unresolved, I'll still like to toy with a Satsu allegiance turn fueld by jealousy/obsession. Even moreso if Xander's hookup ends up being Buffy!

vampmogs
20-01-09, 07:24 AM
Awesome! :2party: That was just a fantastic read, I'm already digging it more than 'Harmonic Divergence' I gotta say. It just flowed amazingly well, the dialogue was zesty and fun and meaty, I love the further exploration of how Satsu's reflecting on the Buffy/Satsu fling.

And man did I miss Jeanty, I think it's some of his best drawings ever, I love his style! I know he illustrated 'Harmonic Divergence' but I think he was just getting his groove back on, it seems to be well and truly back!

And yeah, I gotta give Kennedy some praise. Man is she better written this season than she was in season seven. I just think it shows how terrible the writing was that season when they can make a character come across as so awful compared to now. Though did anyone else think it was kind of ironic that Kennedy said "Don't be a brat slinky!" and "I don't like amateurs crowding me" cause it's pretty much what I loathed about her character in season seven.. though she did say "that's my profession" so at least she's aware of the fact! It's a little self-deprecating which is fun. :)

And wow, Satsu, a little bitter me thinks? She didn't like being assessed which adds a new interesting light on her character that's for sure, and she seems rather pissed that Buffy wouldn't come herself which inevitably stirs up more feelings about the time they had together. I also loved Kennedy trying to help her out in the relationship department. But the comment that Satsu's report on the "Korean incident" was vauge could mean two things;

Either;

a) Satsu's began to resent Buffy upon further reflection and is being intentionally "bratty" to piss her off which leads to intentionally vauge reports

or

b) Perhaps Satsu was the man on the inside (unless that's now been confirmed as Riley?) and it's vauge because it was Twilighty.. which could work, it'd be interesting to see if Satsu seduced Buffy, got a job out of it and this worked to Twilight's advantage...

A wicked preview, man I can’t wait for this issue! :D

ThePoet's<3
20-01-09, 07:39 AM
Still do not like Kennedy. Oh well - someone has to not like her - I like Spike's blue shirt too.

I did like the way Kennedy called Satsu out on her Brattiness. What is she twelve? She really needs to STAY OUT OF CLAIRES!! Or just stay out of the Mall!

http://www.claires.com/

Jeanty is great in these panels. He's got Kennedy down to a tee! Maybe we should keep Georges out of Claires!! LOL!! :D

And I would like to know what's in that bag too - why does Satsu seem to be surprised by it when she's been hauling it around!?!

Sacred Knight
20-01-09, 08:41 AM
She hasn't been carrying the bag around, that slug demon was. You can first see it clasped in its severed hand in the second panel of the first page.

Rowan Hawthorn
20-01-09, 01:34 PM
I like Kennedy from way back. And, so far, I like Satsu. I strongly suspected they'd butt heads one way or another (we've seen previously that she may be polite and respectful in public, but Satsu isn't exactly "shy and retiring" otherwise.) Despite Kennedy and Willow's long-term absence from Slayer Central, Satsu recognizes Kennedy on sight - not their first meeting, I gather. Maybe Kennedy helped train the Alpha Team?

Wolfie Gilmore
20-01-09, 02:09 PM
This looks like it's going to be great. Satsu's very pissy, mogs, I agree - quite natural, but I sort of want her to be graceful in rejection. Cos I like characters who are like that - whats her name in four weddings in a funeral, who's in unrequited love with Hugh Grant's character and is very classy about it.

But, she's a teenager, so it's a bit much to expect. I think this team up could be great fun. The comics have definitely changed my mind on Kennedy, as she was never funny enough in the show (or not often, though she had some great llines), but now she's sassy and witty. Love it.

KingofCretins
20-01-09, 02:17 PM
Satsu certainly has grown pretty blunt and, yes, bratty on the subject of Buffy -- reviewing her ass herself and all that. Good pickup, that she and Kennedy have met. That wasn't an "I recognize who you are" type of reaction, they definitely met at some point. I don't think Kennedy trained them unless she was basically their DI -- Alpha Team are Buffy's personal proteges.

Am I the only one that thinks one or both of these characters might be killed off in this issue?

Wolfie Gilmore
20-01-09, 02:21 PM
Satsu certainly has grown pretty blunt and, yes, bratty on the subject of Buffy -- reviewing her ass herself and all that. Good pickup, that she and Kennedy have met. That wasn't an "I recognize who you are" type of reaction, they definitely met at some point. I don't think Kennedy trained them unless she was basically their DI -- Alpha Team are Buffy's personal proteges.

Am I the only one that thinks one or both of these characters might be killed off in this issue?

It hadn't occurred to me til now. Thanks for those nightmares :P

I imagine there must have been the odd bit of general slayer meet and greet for at least some of the slayers at some point? Especially if Satsu was picked up (poor choice of words) by the scoobies earlier on than some?

KingofCretins
20-01-09, 02:33 PM
I've been very curious as to how they went about finding and organizing the Slayers since "Chosen". That's part of why I wrote "Franchises", or at least how it avoided being PWP :) The gang had a very limited number of people with which to find and organize and recruit and train Slayers... only fourteen that we know of for sure, and we've only seen eleven of them so far in Season 8.

Rowan Hawthorn
20-01-09, 02:36 PM
Satsu certainly has grown pretty blunt and, yes, bratty on the subject of Buffy -- reviewing her ass herself and all that. Good pickup, that she and Kennedy have met. That wasn't an "I recognize who you are" type of reaction, they definitely met at some point. I don't think Kennedy trained them unless she was basically their DI -- Alpha Team are Buffy's personal proteges.
Yeah, that's kinda what I meant - I would think that, early on, Buffy took charge of training pretty much all of the newly gathered Slayers until a) there were too many for her to train personally, and b) she made sure enough of the senior Slayers were ready to have their own teams handed over - kind of like the Grand Master who lets lower belt ranks help with the beginners until those advanced students are ready to start their own branch of the school.


Am I the only one that thinks one or both of these characters might be killed off in this issue?
I hope not, but it's possible. Something else that struck me: Kennedy's advice sounds an awful lot like an "intervention between friends". Even though they've obviously met, would Kennedy know Satsu well enough to be that concerned for her? Or did Willow maybe pick up on something in the vagueness of Satsu's Korean report (considering how conscientious Satsu appeared before, that sounds odd) and suggest it would be a good idea for Kennedy to step in?

Emmie
20-01-09, 04:42 PM
Am I the only one that thinks one or both of these characters might be killed off in this issue?

That constant fear only exists for me when reading After the Fall. Which is kinda good because if a character dies in Season 8, I won't be expecting it. ;)


Yeah, that's kinda what I meant - I would think that, early on, Buffy took charge of training pretty much all of the newly gathered Slayers until a) there were too many for her to train personally, and b) she made sure enough of the senior Slayers were ready to have their own teams handed over - kind of like the Grand Master who lets lower belt ranks help with the beginners until those advanced students are ready to start their own branch of the school.

I'm really loving the imagery of Buffy training all the girls. But it raises the question - where was Faith? Besides Buffy, she's the most experienced at slaying. It's perhaps a sad testament that either Faith wasn't trusted enough to train them (which doesn't jive with Chosen) or Faith rejected that role (which kinda jives with her attitude in NFFY towards Woods' squad). Or could be both - she wasn't trusted enough to train them so that's why she was mocking Woods' noobie squad in NFFY.

Either way, it doesn't seem like a wise management decision to bench one of your most talented slayers when there's 500 new slayers to train. Kennedy has her own squad and Faith doesn't? I guess the writers wanted Faith to keep her oh-so-cool lone wolf status. She's a rebel baby. Oh yeah.

KingofCretins
20-01-09, 04:49 PM
I still haven't seen anything that demands Kennedy commands a squad. I read her involvement in "Time of Your Life" as being at the head of a special team specifically for that assignment. The only other times we've seen her were looking like a "kept woman" for Willow. And now we see her on her own. I don't buy that a squad leader is likely to just go here and there so often. If so, being the Tokyo squad leader wouldn't provide Satsu much distance at all. I think Kennedy has some sort of specialized role, possibly doing exactly what she's doing here -- evaluations on the teams and special assignments.

I actually *wasn't* imagining Buffy as training the Slayers in large groups -- we see her training Xander's squad, because she lives there, but I actually saw Kennedy as the one probably doing early training for large numbers. A DI. That would make sense since she already had that job.

I think that, where things were in "Chosen" and how impressed Buffy was with Faith's work, that she'd have been trusted to train Slayers... I just seriously doubt she wanted to. She *hated* that job.

dinamo
20-01-09, 05:05 PM
I love this preview. It seems like Kennedy has really found herself and is secure in the role she has. They've both obviously met before, but it may have only been on maybe a visit of Kennedy's to Scotland or something, or in the early days when Kennedy continued her Season 7 role of helping to train the newer girls.

I said when the cover for this was released that i really hope that this doesn't turn into a two lesbians together storyline thats all about some kind of cheap jokes and titilation. In the first few pages the lesbian thing has already been mentioned I hope thats the end of it, and we just get a good story of the girls kicking demonic ass. However, I do think it was probably realistic that Satsu would mention the other known lesbian slayers coming to see her, i just hope it doesn't turn into something ongoing through the issue.

Emmie
20-01-09, 05:22 PM
I think that, where things were in "Chosen" and how impressed Buffy was with Faith's work, that she'd have been trusted to train Slayers... I just seriously doubt she wanted to. She *hated* that job.

Yeah, I can see Faith turning it down. I think she finds the noob slayers a bit annoying and doesn't want the responsibility. Could Buffy be upset with Faith pre-NFFY because she offered Faith a position in the Slayer Org. and Faith turned her down? It's understandable why Faith would not want to be involved if she doesn't like the gig. But for Buffy to look to the only other seasoned slayer and say, 'Let's help these girls' - that's a huge responsibility. I have to imagine that Buffy would ask Faith considering Andrew (of all people) has his own squad and he has next to no tactical experience.

Considering how I view Buffy and Co. as being spread too thin with this great responsibility to train and lead the slayers, I can imagine how it would perhaps feel like a slap in the face for Faith to say, 'Thanks, but no thanks' when they really needed her involved. Granted, Faith was a bit lost and finally found her own mission in NFFY to help girls who were flirting with a darker path. But she's still responsible for creating the Slayer army - she was in the room when it was first discussed and decided on. Faith seems like the only one who's not involved in Buffy's organization - and maybe that's the reason why. It's Buffy's organization and Faith doesn't want to play with her in charge. Faith wants to find her own path.

Vampire in Rug
20-01-09, 07:50 PM
I doubt that Kennedy is going to be killed off. At least I hope not. Before that happens we need her to find out about Willow's encounters with Saga Vasuki. I think it's pretty obvious that Willow has been hiding that from her. Also I'd like to find out about Kennedy's "magical death" that happened between seasons 7 and 8.

In Scott Allie's most recent Q and A, I believe he mentioned that Buffy herself would be absent from one of the upcoming issues. Was it this issue?

KingofCretins
20-01-09, 07:58 PM
It will probably be 8.24 "Safe". She's on the variant for 8.22, she's in the story for 8.23, and I think Allie mentioned she's in 8.25. So it's either 8.24, the Faith and Giles issue, or it's later on.

Kennedy does need to find out, but I doubt anything would lead to these two characters hooking up. This is actually the second time I've gotten the impression Kennedy might want a crack at Buffy. I don't see Willow and Oz getting back together because of the ensuing torches and pitchforks. Before the Riley reveal, I thought Buffy and Oz might get together. Still hoping for Buffy/Xander :)

vampmogs
21-01-09, 01:37 AM
I could be wrong but I think I remember Jeanty saying it was in the Faith/Giles issue that Buffy doesn't show up. Don't quote me on that though.


Yeah, I can see Faith turning it down. I think she finds the noob slayers a bit annoying and doesn't want the responsibility. Could Buffy be upset with Faith pre-NFFY because she offered Faith a position in the Slayer Org. and Faith turned her down? It's understandable why Faith would not want to be involved if she doesn't like the gig. But for Buffy to look to the only other seasoned slayer and say, 'Let's help these girls' - that's a huge responsibility. I have to imagine that Buffy would ask Faith considering Andrew (of all people) has his own squad and he has next to no tactical experience.

Yeah it seems pretty likely. From what I gathered Faith and Wood had been sent to lead a squad together. It makes sense to send the other most experienced slayer to the other Hellmouth. However, things fell apart one way or another with Wood and Faith grew agitated with the girls. Eventually she left the squad but agreed to still do jobs for them, after all Wood asked her to kill the vampire children. But the more she segregated herself the crappier jobs she got and it's how she wound up where she was. I believe a lot of Faith's situation that we saw in 'No Future For You' would have been self inflicted.

Wether or not Buffy took offence to Faith segregating herself? Hmm.. Not sure, it’s an interesting theory but I don’t really have anything to go on to support that. It is very possible though, Buffy seems rather disenchanted with those slayers who don’t want to join her ranks, and given her past history with Faith the offence will always be pretty raw.

I don’t think they’ll kill both Kennedy and Satsu off in this issue, but it’s possible. The blurb does mention Twilight so I think he’ll play a part in this story, wether it be just a catch up scene to see what he thinks of the slayers becoming a public enemy, or a larger part. I still think it’s possible he’s manipulated Satsu into joining his ranks or will do in this issue, after all she’d still be raw after what happened with Buffy and may be an easier target to manipulate. I hope they don't kill either girls off though.

Maggie
21-01-09, 03:13 AM
Yeah, I can see Faith turning it down. I think she finds the noob slayers a bit annoying and doesn't want the responsibility. Could Buffy be upset with Faith pre-NFFY because she offered Faith a position in the Slayer Org. and Faith turned her down? It's understandable why Faith would not want to be involved if she doesn't like the gig. But for Buffy to look to the only other seasoned slayer and say, 'Let's help these girls' - that's a huge responsibility. I have to imagine that Buffy would ask Faith considering Andrew (of all people) has his own squad and he has next to no tactical experience.

Considering how I view Buffy and Co. as being spread too thin with this great responsibility to train and lead the slayers, I can imagine how it would perhaps feel like a slap in the face for Faith to say, 'Thanks, but no thanks' when they really needed her involved. Granted, Faith was a bit lost and finally found her own mission in NFFY to help girls who were flirting with a darker path. But she's still responsible for creating the Slayer army - she was in the room when it was first discussed and decided on. Faith seems like the only one who's not involved in Buffy's organization - and maybe that's the reason why. It's Buffy's organization and Faith doesn't want to play with her in charge. Faith wants to find her own path.

Was Faith really lost? She's doing the mission. And in a cleaner way than Buffy (not robbing banks, as her very low rent digs testify). Indeed, NFFY seemed to be setting up the contrast between Faith's road of humility and sacrifice with Buffy's road of castles and private jets (comparing her to Gigi). It's Buffy who's lost here. That was the whole point of NFFY. (We are meant to think that Gigi and Faith are mirrors, only to learn that it's Gig and Buffy who are mirrors.)

It'd be interesting to know how it came to be that Faith stayed out of the (corrupting) power center. The most likely scenario is that she went with Robin to Cleveland, where they clearly have a team of slayers. But that problems between her and Robin led to her being more of a lone wolf. Faith's self-esteem issues might also have led her to feel that she's not an appropriate teacher, and to defer to Robin who is an educator. Faith's first thing about herself is that she's a fallen slayer. That would hold her back from assuming roles of authority. But that's also what's keeping her from falling into the traps Buffy seems to have fallen into.

Emmie
21-01-09, 04:30 AM
Was Faith really lost? She's doing the mission. And in a cleaner way than Buffy (not robbing banks, as her very low rent digs testify).

I'm not making a judgment on Faith's decision, nor saying that Buffy is right. Just that Faith finding "her own path" meant not doing it under Buffy's lead. And I think she's doing the mission, but a bit more old school.


It'd be interesting to know how it came to be that Faith stayed out of the (corrupting) power center. The most likely scenario is that she went with Robin to Cleveland, where they clearly have a team of slayers. But that problems between her and Robin led to her being more of a lone wolf. Faith's self-esteem issues might also have led her to feel that she's not an appropriate teacher, and to defer to Robin who is an educator. Faith's first thing about herself is that she's a fallen slayer. That would hold her back from assuming roles of authority.

I'll buy that as the reason for how Faith became isolated by the time we see her during NFFY.

vampmogs
21-01-09, 04:30 AM
Was Faith really lost? She's doing the mission.

I think she was lost in the sense of being very unhappy and very introverted. I think it was a great touch that they showed other holes in her wall to indicate it wasn't the first time she'd punched a stake through the plaster as an outlet for her frustration and misery.

But as I said, I think in part that's self inflicted misery. Unless we learn something else about why Faith left the squad in the first place, how I interpreted it was that she just doesn't like company and segregated herself.

Rowan Hawthorn
21-01-09, 04:36 AM
I don't know that she "doesn't like company" necessarily, so much as she "doesn't play well with others". Faith is a badly damaged person, and regardless of how much she may have an honest desire to change, it isn't easy to do.

KingofCretins
21-01-09, 04:36 AM
We don't know that Faith has ever been formally affiliated with Buffy's organization, even at the outset. She may have just been Robin's girlfriend, in terms of the organization, and was just an odd feature of the city.

Here's another thing we don't actually know -- is Robin affiliated? Or did he just organize his own outfit? I don't imagine Buffy'd have a problem with that per se, although maybe not if it was the Hellmouth.

vampmogs
21-01-09, 04:43 AM
I don't know that she "doesn't like company" necessarily, so much as she "doesn't play well with others". Faith is a badly damaged person, and regardless of how much she may have an honest desire to change, it isn't easy to do.

Yeah, well put, I think you're right. She most certainly wanted Buffy's company in season three before their relationship broke down. Perhaps Faith feels genuinely uneasy around the girls? Perhaps due to a combination of how she believes she failed leading them in 'Touched' and because she thinks she's a bad influence on them? I think this episode proved that Faith still has some really bad self esteem issues, especially when she perceived Giles viewing her as nothing but trash basically. But I also think she gets slightly irritated by “amateurs” if you will, she certainly grew exhausted of the girls rather quickly in ‘Dirty Girls’ but then again.. Who didn’t? :p


We don't know that Faith has ever been formally affiliated with Buffy's organization, even at the outset. She may have just been Robin's girlfriend, in terms of the organization, and was just an odd feature of the city.

Here's another thing we don't actually know -- is Robin affiliated? Or did he just organize his own outfit? I don't imagine Buffy'd have a problem with that per se, although maybe not if it was the Hellmouth.

I got the impression Robin was affiliated. I'd actually say Buffy would have a problem with it if Wood formed his own "squad" (which is what he calls it) outside of her organisation. Especially when as you say, because it's the Hellmouth. I think that's the huge factor in me thinking that Faith originally was sent there, because who better to send to a Hellmouth than the slayer who's been around the longest other than Buffy herself?

Maggie
21-01-09, 05:37 AM
I think she was lost in the sense of being very unhappy and very introverted. I think it was a great touch that they showed other holes in her wall to indicate it wasn't the first time she'd punched a stake through the plaster as an outlet for her frustration and misery.

I love the holes in the wall. But we see what caused her to put one of the holes there -- and that was about the pain of doing a job that requires that you ice children, vamps though they may be. To me it showed that Faith is actually very sensitive to the misery of others, and is frustrated that she can't just make it better. Buffy used to be sensitive to that sort of misery, but in season 8 not so much. Another interesting contrast.


But as I said, I think in part that's self inflicted misery. Unless we learn something else about why Faith left the squad in the first place, how I interpreted it was that she just doesn't like company and segregated herself.

In NFFY it seems to be all about self-esteem issues, and especially the way she feels when she's around buffy. Though as I said above, it seems most straight-forward to think that those issues surfaced in the context of her relationship with Robin. He did promise to surprise her, after all. And the first thing we learn is that he didn't. It wouldn't be painful for her if she actually didn't like company. Her problem is that she doesn't know how to trust people enough to be in their company. Again, this is developed when we see how betrayed she feels when she thinks Giles really sent her in to save Buffy and not prevent an apocalypse. Developed again in the revelation of how she understood her relationship with Buffy in season 3. And again in her fight scene with Buffy in the third issue of the arc. NFFY actually did a really good job of telling us exactly where Faith is at.

Koos
21-01-09, 05:16 PM
To me it showed that Faith is actually very sensitive to the misery of others, and is frustrated that she can't just make it better. Buffy used to be sensitive to that sort of misery, but in season 8 not so much. Another interesting contrast.

To me Faith has always been extremely sensitive. And in S3 why she couldn't handle it and the way people have misused her sensitivity for their own good. I never got so much sensitivity from Buffy as from Faith. Buffy used to be sensitive for the people whom she cared for, but to strangers not so much.

Great preview by the way.

Emmie
21-01-09, 05:49 PM
I never got so much sensitivity from Buffy as from Faith. Buffy used to be sensitive for the people whom she cared for, but to strangers not so much.

Buffy used to be incredibly sensitive to strangers back in Season 1 (every episode was about Buffy reaching out to others - teachers, students in trouble) and early Season 2. I think she started to shut down a bit after her first death in Prophecy Girl, though. And every trauma thereafter made it harder for her to open up again. And as the theme continues from Season 5 and her getting harder inside, she struggles with connection in Season 8.

It's not so much that she doesn't care or is incapable of caring, but that she's afraid of caring because of the pain that ensues. Her heart is "full of love", "blinding", and that's why she pulls "away from it". If she doesn't care, then her heart can't be broken. It's her character arc from Season 1 to present day. Oh Buffy, poor girl needs therapy. And it really makes her declaration to Spike in Chosen even braver for her because at that point she struggled to let anyone into her heart that wasn't already there like Giles, Xander, Willow, Angel and Dawn. It's like she closed up shop and Spike had to break in. Which he's admittedly pretty good at. ;)

Koos
22-01-09, 10:53 PM
Buffy used to be incredibly sensitive to strangers back in Season 1 (every episode was about Buffy reaching out to others - teachers, students in trouble) and early Season 2. I think she started to shut down a bit after her first death in Prophecy Girl, though. And every trauma thereafter made it harder for her to open up again. And as the theme continues from Season 5 and her getting harder inside, she struggles with connection in Season 8.


I don't see it as not being able to open up emotionally. To me it was more about her doing her duty. After Prophecy Girl she did lose a part of her innocence, but it was always about her duty versus her personal life.

Emmie
22-01-09, 11:18 PM
I disagree. Buffy in Season 1 was incredibly sensitive to strangers. That's part of why she made friends so easily. She cared and was more emotionally open.

vampmogs
30-01-09, 02:06 AM
Some extra preview pages for the issue were linked over at Whedonesque.

Here they are;

http://www.newsarama.com/php/multimedia/album_view.php?gid=836&page=2

This issue is just gonna rock :D

XavierZane
04-02-09, 09:55 AM
Yay, this is coming out tomorrow/later today! I can't wait to get it. I think this is the first time I haven't been super excited about either cover, though. The Jo Chen cover is good, as usual, but it's no issue 19. And the Jeanty cover is fine, too, but compared to the Harmony cover last issue or even the Buffy/Andrew cover next issue it's not much.

KingofCretins
04-02-09, 05:44 PM
This was a decent issue, not fantastic. It's the first Season 8 one shot that's felt like a bona fide MOTW story.

The "Swell", as the vampy cats are collectively called, pose an interesting sort of villain, but only really insofar as that they are another indicator that Twilight is not trying to reform or repair the Slayers' ways, he is trying to wipe them out. And he's doing it on several fronts. Harmony setting the world against the Slayers seemed like a coincidence, and perhaps it was, but her appearance on Larry King sure had the look and feel of someone who is getting her talking points from somewhere and repeating them. Since she's defending the vampy cats, and the vampy cats were Twilight's, if she's getting talking points now, they're probably from him.

Which makes Buffy's position on her all the more bizarre to me -- I disagree with the whole "let's counter the vampires' PR and act really nice so people will like us". To act conciliatory to the accusations that Slayers are intolerant, that Slayers "hate" vampires unfairly gives the accusations some inherent legitimacy. Harmony should be a kill, or a capture for interrogation (on the theory she's hooked up with Twilight now).

I have to say, this is the first issue where Season 8 actually pushed my suspension of disbelief. I never had a problem with the Slayers rapelling and parachuting out of helicopters, or Mecha-Dawn. But the idea that the Slayers -- all young women with presumably no military background -- are flying their own helicopters and piloting an attack submarine really pushes it. I always just assume they hired pilots for the helicopters and that Xander might have taken a class to fly that little one. But the idea that any or all Slayers can operate military vehicles is just... hard to accept. Especially since we saw in "Angel" 5.13 "Why We Fight" that, no, you can't just climb on a submarine and know how to make it go anywhere -- it's not even consistent in the Buffyverse.

Other problem with it for me is the Vampy Cat taking over Satsu. Not that she did, but that she came out all incongruously Stepfordy with the gender roles and sexual politics. Seemed totally out of place to me.

Character stuff --

Kennedy rocks. She's so much fun in Season 8 it's hard to go back and still hate her in Season 7. I think she understands Satsu much better than Willow does, and that's why she was able to get through to her better. Plus, they are both attitude girls all the way, but Kennedy is the pro. I still don't know why anyone thought they'd climb into bed, but I can see them becoming total Slayer BFFs.

Satsu definitely has the stuff to be a great Slayer, and her evaluation clearly went well. She seems to have let sleeping with the boss go a little to her head, though. And more bizarrely... does anyone notice that, with all those witnesses, neither Satsu nor her other Slayers actually *help* the man upside down in the truck? If there's a problem with Satsu as a leader or a Slayer it's that she seems to have some of that Season 3 Faith in her now that she's on her own. I am glad though to see her finally turn the corner and stop fussing over Buffy. I'm also glad that Kennedy was pretty blunt about the fact that Buffy would only ever give Satsu "her body". Satsu finally seems to get that when Buffy basically doesn't react to her as anything other than a subordinate.

For the wardrobe fans -- Xander sports a nice black button down, opting for the open top button and no jacket. The effect falls somewhere between Season 4 Wesley and Dread Pirate Roberts.

sueworld
04-02-09, 06:14 PM
all young women with presumably no military background -- are flying their own helicopters and piloting an attack submarine really pushes it.


Oh dear lord. Gimme a break. :s I wonder If even Joss realises that some may have trouble accepting that?

Doesn't it give any back explanation when it comes to any possible training?

Vampire in Rug
04-02-09, 07:12 PM
Thanks for the recap K-of-C. I'll be looking forward to reading this one. Slayers operating helicopters and submarines? That's really dumb. Sounds like they don't even give you room to fanwank a plausable explanation here. And they can't chalk it up to "they're Slayers, they're just naturally good at this stuff". That's lazy, especially when Buffy herself barely knows how to use a car.

Sosa lola
04-02-09, 08:09 PM
Thanks for the recap K-of-C. I'll be looking forward to reading this one. Slayers operating helicopters and submarines? That's really dumb. Sounds like they don't even give you room to fanwank a plausable explanation here. And they can't chalk it up to "they're Slayers, they're just naturally good at this stuff". That's lazy, especially when Buffy herself barely knows how to use a car.

While is it annoying, it's no more ridiculous than regular boys and girls developing Martial Arts techniques when they get vamped. :lol:

I think the aim is to enjoy the story without thinking too much about stuff. But I agree that it's lazy writing.

KingofCretins
04-02-09, 08:21 PM
Sue, even I'm not going to fight to defend this aspect. In 8.01, I just figured that the helicopters were hired. In 8.22, we actually see a helicopter, approximately like a UH-60 Blackhawk, being crewed by five Slayers. Later, a stolen (well, repossessed) Korean attack submarine is being crewed... entirely by Slayers. Moreover, said attack submarine is actually used to engage another ship.

I'm willing to forgive it if they confine it to this issue. Like I said, when it was Xander flying that small helicopter, the kind a private citizen might own, I figured "well, he's had lessons I guess". But younger people flying a much more sophisticated machine? The story works other than that, though -- how hard would it have been to just have anonymous adult helicopter pilots?

Vampire in Rug
04-02-09, 09:21 PM
While is it annoying, it's no more ridiculous than regular boys and girls developing Martial Arts techniques when they get vamped. :lol:

I think the aim is to enjoy the story without thinking too much about stuff. But I agree that it's lazy writing.

Maybe vampires just instinctivly know how to use thier bodies effectivly like Slayers and Illyria do. Or maybe most vampires decide to learn martial arts because there are bigger demons and superstrong girls out there who don't like vampires. My point is, with vampires there's room to fanwank and at the very least, we had Dawn actually poking fun at the vampires instinctivly knowing martial arts.

By the sounds of it, we now have teenage girls piloting helicopters and submarines which is just plain silly. Like KingofCretins said, with Xander flying a helicopter, it's at least plausable that he may have had lessons. There's room to fanwank. And we don't have a character making fun of the situation for us like we did with the vampire-martial arts or Xander's semester with Dracula.

I'll wait until I read the issue before making a judgement though. And it sounds like a minor thing anyway.

Wolfie Gilmore
04-02-09, 10:24 PM
By the sounds of it, we now have teenage girls piloting helicopters and submarines which is just plain silly.

I imagine many helicopter and submarine pilots aren't much out of their teen years? Surely the army/airforce/navy have plenty of young officiers/pilots/whatever submarine driving people are called?

But, agree, it's a massive leap - if they're going to use tech like that, I want to have the training be part of it. We see slayers learning how to slay, I'd like to see them learning the "real world" stuff too, if it's not stuff people would naturally pick up. I want to know who's training them, who they're working with to learn these military-style skills. Does this mean Buffy's collaborating with some former army types? Does this mean, perhaps, that Riley really is a double-agent? Or triple, if he's "fooling" Buffy while working for Twilight (but really working for Buffy)?

That'd be a nice tie-up of the random army skillz plus Riley's "betrayal".

Sosa lola
04-02-09, 10:30 PM
Maybe vampires just instinctivly know how to use thier bodies effectivly like Slayers and Illyria do.

But Buffy didn't instinctivly know how to use her body effectivly after she was called. She had to train a lot to be a good fighter.

I'm not disagreeing that it's lousy writing, it is. I think because the story is so larger than life, the writers/Joss aren't bothering with little details, just like vampires knowing how to fight right after they were sired and how Xander and Giles' fighting skills get impressive or awful depending on the storyline of the episode.

Emmie
04-02-09, 10:32 PM
Reaction post to Swell:

A complete story in one issue, jam packed with action and wonderful character moments. This issue really is all about Satsu even though we sadly don't get an internal monologue from her. We learn about her troubled history with her parents after she "destroyed them with [her] gayness." The story comes full-circle with Kennedy helping Satsu in the beginning, then kicking the mind-controlling Vampy Cat (way better than Bad Eggs) out of Satsu only to have Satsu save the day. We see her being questioned and even controlled, but her instincts and ingenuity lead her team to victory. Kennedy serves as an assistant and morale booster who shows Satsu she needs to move on from Buffy, but it's Satsu who ultimately takes action. Strong, sure and independent. Satsu finally comes to terms with Buffy's heart being unreachable to her and stops moping (notice that Satsu has a newpaper clipping of Buffy on the wall of her bedroom), throws away the lip gloss o' love and moves on. To shopping. With her new BFF Kennedy. A wonderful issue for her.

There's some very disturbing metaphors here regarding sexuality and how women are kept down. The most blatant one to me was, "Get in her mouth! Get in her mouth!" in order to force control. As for Satsu's Stepford-ness, that completely worked. Recall that Satsu isn't really speaking and has no idea what's happening - that's Vampy Cat #1 in the driver's seat there. And what Vampycat!Satsu is saying is all from the demonic, misogynistic Swell's perspective.

The theme of appearances not matching the heart of the situation, the truth of reality, is continued here. What is truth? The Vampy Cats are seen by the public as cute, cuddly toys massacred by those mean old slayers and Harmony cannot be taken out because that will make her appear like a "martyr." The Slayers are seen as evil when in reality they're fighting evil. Perception of reality continues to play an important role. What becomes the priority here - the mission or the message? If the Slayers fail to counter Twilight's message, how can they continue their mission?

Twilight is striking on two fronts, both in battle and in the hearts and minds of the people. While Buffy and Co. successfully stop the Swell from attacking thanks to Satsu's squad, she continues to fail to act regarding the public's growing fear and hatred of the Slayers. Twilight's outflanked Buffy and she needs to start answering the message war or she really will be at war with humanity. Demons on one side, humanity on the other - both frothing at the mouth to put an end to Slayers.

We finally see how Buffy is reacting to the PR nightmare Harmony's perpetuating as she paints the Slayers as evil, but her solution seems ultimately misguided. She wants to keep a "low profile...like subterranean" but that is impossible when battles happen in the light of day and Slayer commercials are presumably still airing. All this will do is make them seem even more secretive and dangerous to the public who's asking questions.

"We need to stop being whatever we've been and focus. Be more than human. Or the less-than is gonna win." - Buffy

Whatever we've been? She's unable to define it - how about morally wrong, secretive and elitist? Be "more than human"? That's been the problem all along. That Buffy thinks Slayers are "more than human." What she needs is to simply *be* human and being human means connecting to the world, creating ties with humanity rather than keeping a "low profile". Her plan is "way that bad" as it continues her isolationist stance that is breeding mistrust among the public. Buffy's statement also addresses the inner battle every Slayer faces between their humanity and their slayerness. The Slayer has the potential to be "less-than". The other that is within each and every Slayer.

Favorite quotes:

"Duck, don't get hit." - Anonymous Slayer
"That thing had four arms! I ducked the first three!" - Ayumi

"It's not the sparks he should be afraid of, it's the fire." - Satsu

"Your eval's so getting a smiley face." - Kennedy


An overall incredibly pleasing issue that contains deep food for thought beneath all the action and humor. Very Buffy. Excellent.

XavierZane
04-02-09, 10:33 PM
Maybe vampires just instinctivly know how to use thier bodies effectivly like Slayers and Illyria do. Or maybe most vampires decide to learn martial arts because there are bigger demons and superstrong girls out there who don't like vampires. My point is, with vampires there's room to fanwank and at the very least, we had Dawn actually poking fun at the vampires instinctivly knowing martial arts.

By the sounds of it, we now have teenage girls piloting helicopters and submarines which is just plain silly. Like KingofCretins said, with Xander flying a helicopter, it's at least plausable that he may have had lessons. There's room to fanwank. And we don't have a character making fun of the situation for us like we did with the vampire-martial arts or Xander's semester with Dracula.

I'll wait until I read the issue before making a judgement though. And it sounds like a minor thing anyway.

It is a very minor thing. It didn't even ping on my radar when I read the issue, and now that it's been pointed out...yeah, I just don't care. It seems to me that there's just as much room to fanwank Slayers piloting a helicopter as there is Xander. More so, even. They've had lessons...simple. Or, they are simply able to pick things up like that faster than normal humans. As for the submarine...apparently the vampires they stole it from knew how to work it, so maybe they kept one alive and made him or her teach them the basics. Or, they simply figured out how to work it because they've been playing with it since they got it. Like I said, it doesn't bother me, but it does seem very fanwankable.


As for my thoughts about the issue itself: I loved it! Fast paced, action packed, intense, funny, great character moments, and a freakin' submarine!


And more bizarrely... does anyone notice that, with all those witnesses, neither Satsu nor her other Slayers actually *help* the man upside down in the truck?

Neither do any of the fifty or so people standing around watching. Satsu at least has the excuse that she's chasing after the thing that did that to him. Besides, we only see Satsu go after the monster, for all we know, before going to check on Ayumi, Satsu's partner there got the dude out of the wreckage.

Satsu was awesome in this issue. Badass, resourceful, and competent, with some very intense emotional scenes. I really like her and Kennedy together, and hope they continue their friendship. And, if Kennedy were to ever find out that Willow is cavorting with a snake-goddess, I could totally see Satsu/Kennedy developing.

That Vampy Cat was one of the cutest things I've ever seen before he went all evil. Seeing him come to life and toddle around the Slayer headquarters...:hug:

I liked the Random Slayer/Ayumi pep talk. A very nice little insert.

Satsu's turn as a mouthpiece for Swell's/Twilight's traditionalist philosophy was one of the most unsettling scenes of the season so far. I honestly don't remember ever being so viscerally affected by a possession on the show. On the plus side, we got to find out a bit more about Satsu, and about Twilight. Satsu's parent's were apparently 'destroyed' by her coming out (let alone becoming a slayer), so they're probably not on the best of terms. However, Satsu has kept the furisode they bought her, apparently lugging it with her to Scotland and then back to Japan.

Satsu's misogynistic rant while possessed has moved Caleb up my list of Twilight suspects, because that was classic Caleb. That brings my list to: 3. Caleb 2. Giles 1. Hank Summers. Caleb had fallen off for awhile.

Swell. Oh, Swell. We have a giant evil demon made of plush. Made of thousands of plush, cute vampy cats, actually. We have this, and people are making a fuss about girls piloting submarines being unrealistic? :lol:

Like I said earlier, I love the submarine. It's incredibly cool that Satsu got her own submarine.

vampmogs
05-02-09, 12:10 AM
Can't wait to read the issue, it sounds very good.

Though on the topic of the girls flying the helicopters ect. Whilst I think they should have it in the text somewhere that Buffy had all the girls trained and given lessons on this sort of thing, I don't see why it's so hard to believe? Why is it easy for us to believe Xander had lessons to fly the helicopter in 'Wolves At The Gate' but not the slayers? The mere fact Xander did have lessons to me, indicates that it was the organisations policy and therefore it makes complete sense that the slayers got the same training? Why would they train Xander and not the slayers? He can’t always fly the helicopters? Who else would have been flying them in ‘The Long Way Home’ ect? To be honest I kind of always assumed it was slayers at "the wheel" so to speak as we've only ever been shown that the organisation is made up of either slayers or mystics.

In regards to the submarine, well that's more of a stretch than the helicopters because helicopter lessons actually aren't that hard to come by, but many young service men and women of the slayer's age work in the army and do this sort of thing. It isn't that hard to believe really? Especially as someone pointed out a few posts back, if Riley's been mixing it with the slayers.

KingofCretins
05-02-09, 12:41 AM
Mogs, a private person can get lessons to fly something like what Xander flew in "Wolves at the Gate". That's a civilian aircraft. The Slayers were flying in something of similar design and purpose to a Blackhawk -- a military aircraft. Two entirely different creatures.

As for the idea of controls rigged by magic... eh. I'll accept that the wizard did it and fanwank around when we're explaining something in the idiom, something rooted in the fictional, but we're talking about mundane, ordinary things. The wizard making the submarine work is sort of like the wizard making a jackhammer work. Except way more complicated. And it also sets up a rule with no limits -- if they can magic up a submarine to run for novices, why not a carrier group?

I'm just going to be honest -- Slayers running an attack submarine is about the stupidest effin' plot idea that the Buffyverse has ever tried to sell us on.

That said, it didn't ruin the issue. It was just stupid as hell :) The character stuff carries the issue, Kennedy and Satsu. I did think Xander's line about "big buts" was a little clumsy, even as a bad joke.

Xavier, my point about not trying to help the guy is to question the priorities of the Slayers as a group and Satsu individually. Insofar as the Slayers are taking part in an image war (and knew it already), it doesn't help them sell the idea that they're the good guys to just run through the city after the demon and ignore innocent people.

I disagree with Buffy on the martyr thing, on their whole approach. Even if you aren't going to ignore the media aspect, exploit it -- answer. Hold a press conference reading off the list of all the people killed by vampires just in Southern California in the past 10 years. Use Harmony's past -- she is a victim of vampire violence! And maybe have Willow mention that Harmony tried to kill her.

vampmogs
05-02-09, 12:49 AM
Mogs, a private person can get lessons to fly something like what Xander flew in "Wolves at the Gate". That's a civilian aircraft. The Slayers were flying in something of similar design and purpose to a Blackhawk -- a military aircraft. Two entirely different creatures.

Ah I see. As I said I haven't had the opportunity to read the issue yet so I was assuming that they were flying the same helicopters that we see in 'The Long Way Home' or 'Wolves At The Gate.' Meh, I agree that the submarine idea is a lot harder to accept and I agree that if there's no textual explanation or background to explain why then it's very poor storytelling but helicopters really don't surprise me all that much. I mean I'm sure Riley could have flew one, much like the one he takes off in in 'As You Were' so I'm sure the slayers could given some proper training.


Insofar as the Slayers are taking part in an image war (and knew it already), it doesn't help them sell the idea that they're the good guys to just run through the city after the demon and ignore innocent people.

Agreed, but then that's why Buffy and the slayers are in such a difficult position. They're having to worry about image whilst trying to do their job. The demon could have killed or injured many other innocent people if it hadn't been Satsu's number one priority so I agree with her decision to go after the demon rather than help the victim, many other bystanders around could look after him whilst I'm sure the majority of them couldn't take out the demon.


I disagree with Buffy on the martyr thing, on their whole approach. Even if you aren't going to ignore the media aspect, exploit it -- answer. Hold a press conference reading off the list of all the people killed by vampires just in Southern California in the past 10 years. Use Harmony's past -- she is a victim of vampire violence! And maybe have Willow mention that Harmony tried to kill her.

Agreed. Buffy is going about this all wrong. After reading Emmie’s review I really gotta get my hands on this issue quickly because she mentioned that Buffy said they have to become something more than human or along those lines, and that’s so in line with Buffy’s arc this season that I just gotta see it for myself. One of the best character moments in the season IMO if I read that right and they do take Buffy down that route because it’s what all her actions have been leading to since the season began. Awesome stuff, I’m glad they’re tackling it.

XavierZane
05-02-09, 12:55 AM
Mogs, a private person can get lessons to fly something like what Xander flew in "Wolves at the Gate". That's a civilian aircraft. The Slayers were flying in something of similar design and purpose to a Blackhawk -- a military aircraft. Two entirely different creatures.

Different only in variation, not in kind. If the military can train someone to fly such a helicopter, then the Slayer Organization can. If soldiers can learn to operate submarines, tanks, helicopters, etc. then Slayers can. They're machines, just like any other machine. The fact that they're military machines doesn't make them impossible to master.


That said, it didn't ruin the issue. It was just stupid as hell :) The character stuff carries the issue, Kennedy and Satsu. I did think Xander's line about "big buts" was a little clumsy, even as a bad joke.

I'll agree with you there. Clumsy and rushed. I would have liked it much more if Xander had just stood in the background and looked cool.


Xavier, my point about not trying to help the guy is to question the priorities of the Slayers as a group and Satsu individually. Insofar as the Slayers are taking part in an image war (and knew it already), it doesn't help them sell the idea that they're the good guys to just run through the city after the demon and ignore innocent people.

I disagree with Buffy on the martyr thing, on their whole approach. Even if you aren't going to ignore the media aspect, exploit it -- answer. Hold a press conference reading off the list of all the people killed by vampires just in Southern California in the past 10 years. Use Harmony's past -- she is a victim of vampire violence! And maybe have Willow mention that Harmony tried to kill her.

But I think one of the underlying points of the issue is that, so far, the Slayers are refusing to acknowledge the image war. They're not going to change how they operate just because the spotlight is one them, they're not going to play to the crowd, they're just going to do their jobs as usual. While that's not the smartest thing to do, it's what they're doing.

Charles
05-02-09, 01:04 AM
I haven't read this yet but Xander does have an out already for flying lessons, his soldier guy training which while it's faded in theory could have given him the groundwork to build upon via private lessons.

The only thing that makes the slightest bit of sense is somehow via Willow and Riley, Buffy arranged for military flight training in mass. And even that is a big stretch.

Other then that, this issue, much like the season, sounds a lot like the reason Joss misses David. He needs someone he at least regards as equal in every regard who can tell him 'no' and point out the gaping holes and questionable logic he has.

Morrydwen
05-02-09, 01:46 AM
This issue was fantastic! Fun all the way through! The dialogue was great, art was great, plot was self-contained but moved the larger plot along, we got some great character moments and lines, and the fun of it didn't overtake the underlying seriousness, or vice versa. This is definitely one of my favorites of the season!

Maggie
05-02-09, 02:00 AM
We finally see how Buffy is reacting to the PR nightmare Harmony's perpetuating as she paints the Slayers as evil, but her solution seems ultimately misguided. She wants to keep a "low profile...like subterranean" but that is impossible when battles happen in the light of day and Slayer commercials are presumably still airing. All this will do is make them seem even more secretive and dangerous to the public who's asking questions.

"We need to stop being whatever we've been and focus. Be more than human. Or the less-than is gonna win." - Buffy

Whatever we've been? She's unable to define it - how about morally wrong, secretive and elitist? Be "more than human"? That's been the problem all along. That Buffy thinks Slayers are "more than human." What she needs is to simply *be* human and being human means connecting to the world, creating ties with humanity rather than keeping a "low profile". Her plan is "way that bad" as it continues her isolationist stance that is breeding mistrust among the public. Buffy's statement also addresses the inner battle every Slayer faces between their humanity and their slayerness. The Slayer has the potential to be "less-than". The other that is within each and every Slayer.

This is great. And you hit the money quote. But I'd add: notice that demons are "less than" human. That's the classic definition of demonization -- treating people as if they are less than human. Buffy's going to have to explain to people that she's not demonizing demons. Except, to the extent that she's raking ALL demons into the category of "less than" human she IS demonizing them -- which means she's not going to have an explanation that's going to work against Harmony's PR blitz where everyone can see a demon who sure acts like a person, who, indeed, is a person in every meaning of the word. It's a great, great line.

Rowan Hawthorn
05-02-09, 02:07 AM
After reading this, I kind of agree that the military hardware thing is pushing the envelope - but not because of the age issue. There are likely any number of Slayers who are in the acceptable age range for even the US military; there's no logical reason why they'd have any more trouble learning to operate the hardware than any actual military personnel do, and Slayerized physical enhancements should make it even easier for them. What I question is how they learned it. A friend of mine was driving his dad's tractor/trailer rig when he was ten years old, but he didn't learn it on his own, and a helicopter is a little more complicated than that regardless of whether it's civilian or military. It's possible that some of the new Slayers had ROTC training, some of them may have actually been in some branch of military service when Willow's spell activated them, but it would be nice to know.

KingofCretins
05-02-09, 02:14 AM
Rowan, even at that... submariners are not typically going to be people straight out of ROTC. You need officers to run a submarine.

Sigh, it's a frustrating subplot that's not going to be explored. And it shouldn't be explored, because it's not important, but it shouldn't be so poorly designed that it's distracting. Satsu thinks it's "okay" to just *keep* a military vessel of the Republic of Korea? And to use it to blow up cargo ships? As far as the world will care, the submarine attack sank the ship and killed every crew member on board because the Slayers didn't like a toy. And Buffy says to keep it even after saying they need to "prove 'em wrong" about the Slayers being bad guys?

Chace
05-02-09, 02:33 AM
Slayers kill demons because they're evil...but some demons aren't evil or have no interest in behaving that way (Harmony, Clem, Lorne, Spike, Angel, Illyria?). Then we have "rogue" slayers or slayers with different methods than Buffy (like Simone...Faith?), but yet the slayers condone killing and stealing for their own purposes and see fit to define what they consider evil. Well...what if humanity decides that the slayers don't have the right to decide who should or shouldn't be killed? Who says Buffy has the right to decide, either? Buffy says demons are "less than human", but the slayer's powers originated from demonic essence. In any case, surely the SURGE in activated slayers has offset the balance of "good" and "evil" and now evil has responded in turn by counterbalancing this with more evil in the world and more demons to even out the numbers proportionally. Is the Slayer spell going to be deactivated? Is that the solution? This really is going to get interesting by the time we reach season 9.

Rowan Hawthorn
05-02-09, 02:47 AM
Rowan, even at that... submariners are not typically going to be people straight out of ROTC. You need officers to run a submarine.
Well, actually, the officers may give the orders, but it's the crew that actually runs it, and their rank could be anything from Seaman on up (and people straight out of ROTC are officers, assuming they graduated their class - generally something like 2nd lieutenant for Army, not sure exactly what that translates to in the Navy, maybe Ensign - but certainly, they still wouldn't get command of their own ship.)


Sigh, it's a frustrating subplot that's not going to be explored. And it shouldn't be explored, because it's not important, but it shouldn't be so poorly designed that it's distracting. Satsu thinks it's "okay" to just *keep* a military vessel of the Republic of Korea? And to use it to blow up cargo ships? As far as the world will care, the submarine attack sank the ship and killed every crew member on board because the Slayers didn't like a toy. And Buffy says to keep it even after saying they need to "prove 'em wrong" about the Slayers being bad guys?

Yeah, unless the subplot does get completely dropped, this isn't going to go well for the Slayer organization.

vampmogs
05-02-09, 02:47 AM
Satsu thinks it's "okay" to just *keep* a military vessel of the Republic of Korea? And to use it to blow up cargo ships? As far as the world will care, the submarine attack sank the ship and killed every crew member on board because the Slayers didn't like a toy. And Buffy says to keep it even after saying they need to "prove 'em wrong" about the Slayers being bad guys?

Isn't that the whole point? The slayers are meant to be in the grey. Whilst the public is wrong in thinking that vampires are the friendly good guys, Twilight's been able to work this entire thing so amazingly well because the slayers are making it easy for him to present them as bad news. This is just another tick in that column as far as I'm concerned. It also doesn’t help when you come fresh out of ‘After the Fall’ where Angel is publicly known as the guy who liberated everybody from slavery and saved them from hell but more importantly, is known to be *a vampire.* Hard for Buffy or the slayers to have any chance of selling themselves as the ‘good guys’ when their entire mission is to rid the world of vampires after one just saved a whole city. Of course the citizens of LA probably don’t know the logistics of this and why Angel’s a unique case, but that’s why it works so well.

I really think it's not so much a flaw in the writing but an intentional moment to show that the slayers, regardless of what they may think, are inflicting harm upon themselves in how they are perceived by others.

RuFio
05-02-09, 02:50 AM
This issue was fun. :hf2: I don't get why people are freaking out b/c some slayers were operating the sub. It's not something that we need to see, slayers learning how. I think it can just be understood that it's been part of their training.

And what about the vampy cats screaming "EAT THEIR #%&@ING OVARIES!" Ridiculously disturbing & hilarious at the same time.

Maggie
05-02-09, 03:26 AM
Isn't that the whole point? The slayers are meant to be in the grey. Whilst the public is wrong in thinking that vampires are the friendly good guys, Twilight's been able to work this entire thing so amazingly well because the slayers are making it easy for him to present them as bad news. This is just another tick in that column as far as I'm concerned. It also doesn’t help when you come fresh out of ‘After the Fall’ where Angel is publicly known as the guy who liberated everybody from slavery and saved them from hell but more importantly, is known to be *a vampire.* Hard for Buffy or the slayers to have any chance of selling themselves as the ‘good guys’ when their entire mission is to rid the world of vampires after one just saved a whole city. Of course the citizens of LA probably don’t know the logistics of this and why Angel’s a unique case, but that’s why it works so well.

I really think it's not so much a flaw in the writing but an intentional moment to show that the slayers, regardless of what they may think, are inflicting harm upon themselves in how they are perceived by others.

I agree that this is all intentional. And what's so incredibly chilling about it is that Buffy and Satsu and Kennedy and all the rest are utterly blind to it. Whatever it is that they are doing, they are not in service of humanity any more, seeing as how they are so blind to human interests they don't even see when their actions conflict with it.

cheryl4ba
05-02-09, 05:41 AM
Well, I have read the latest issue and I like it. Seems they made a point of letting us know that B/S is over. Didn't mind Kennedy in this issue, which is surprising. Have never cared for her at all.

What I found a little interesting, the way Buffy acted a little bit disappointed that the shipment of catrats was stopped. Made me think briefly that maybe she has one inside her. Couldn't help but notice they showed us Satsu acting very OOC while having one of them in her. Might explain all the OOC moments for Buffy and would also explain why Riley is working against her, if he truly is. Maybe he swallowed one too.

I really enjoyed the art in regards to Xander, he looked great and very Xander like.

Didn't mind the slayers operating heavy machinery at all.

Emmie
05-02-09, 08:19 AM
Honestly, the submarine thing didn't even register for me. After seeing the Slayers in helicoptors, a Mecha Dawn (which...I'm sorry, but how is that more believable? Hamnoo?), a mystical rocket and a trip to the future - after all that, the submarine didn't even make a blip on my radar. What *does* bother me are plot devices that serve no real purpose and don't help the story - oh, hey look it's a bunch of tree people <insert root system joke here>.

In the battle of Mecha Dawn vs. Slayers using submarines, how does Mecha Dawn come off as more believable? I saw one explanation saying that the "blue jeans and irony" line and the fact that it was Tokyo explained it away. Hamnoo?

Sorry, but we already left the realm of reasonable technological expectations when a 50 ft robot was created that was uploaded with Dawn's quirks.

If the oh-so-smart Tokyo vamps had merely spent a few thousand dollars on a rocket launcher (according to King) they could have just shot a few of them at Dawn and gone about their business. But that would have made perfect sense. ;)

Matt
05-02-09, 09:33 AM
I haven't actually got this yet, but I was just browsing Dark Horse's MySpace page and found there is another mini-story for this, (I hope this is a thing for the whole run!)

Anyway, http://www.myspace.com/darkhorsepresents?issuenum=19&storynum=1. It kind of reminds me of the comic about Dawn and Hoopy the Bear.

sueworld
05-02-09, 10:19 AM
In the battle of Mecha Dawn vs. Slayers using submarines, how does Mecha Dawn come off as more believable?

Neither do. IMO they're both really stupid ideas I'm afraid, and feels out of place in a Buffy story. :s

vampmogs
05-02-09, 10:41 AM
Sorry, but we already left the realm of reasonable technological expectations when a 50 ft robot was created that was uploaded with Dawn's quirks.

Actually, I'd say we left the realm of reasonable technological expectations the moment Ted popped up in season two. The Buffyverse is clearly way advanced in technology in comparison to our world which is something that's always somewhat bugged me. Ted, Buffybot, Mecha Dawn.. it's all way beyond what anyone in this day or age should be capable of. I actually thought Mecha Dawn, though as ridiculous as the others, was more believable than the Buffybot or Ted, it's just a giant rust bucket.. the others, not so much. It takes a lot more technological skill to create a Buffybot than it does Mecha Dawn IMO.

Nina
05-02-09, 10:45 AM
I've not read it yet, but I think that I can live with slayers being able to use submarines and stuff. I knoe that it's impossible and it terrible sloppy, but okay I can close my eyes and move on. (like I did with Angel surviving that jump of that building.) On the other side, the writers should be careful with giving the slayers too much talents and power. Even with flawed personalities they are coming close to being a Mary Sue, just because they can do all the cool stuff.

But I'm worried about another misogynistic bad guy, and I really hope that this is not the work of Twilight because the third 'big bad' with misogynistic feelings in a row would turn me off. I really hate it when feminism becomes nothing more than men bashing, and lifting the poor women up into the light.

And this line;
"Be more than human. Or the less-than is gonna win."
Creeps me out as hell, some months ago there was a member here who compared Buffy to Hitler. That comparism baffled me at the time, but Buffy really should not say things like that. (Not that I think that she is even close to Hitler and his awful thoughts, but you know ... it feels a bit like the same.)

Also would that line mean that Buffy is really going to stop with any rules of the outside world? No longer the normal rules are for slayers?

sueworld
05-02-09, 11:41 AM
Also would that line mean that Buffy is really going to stop with any rules of the outside world? No longer the normal rules are for slayers?

I think she seeing the Slayers as a race apart in some ways and so Human rules do not apply to them. Thats why Twilight has a real case If she decides to carry on as she is.

KingofCretins
05-02-09, 12:49 PM
Mecha-Dawn is more believable pretty easily -- since it's *completely* rooted in fantasy and doesn't butt up against anything that common sense already tells us things about to distract us, it's easier to just accept it and move on. Teenagers using a stolen military submarine butts up against all kinds of everyday realities that make it harder to suspend disbelief.

I have an easier time believing in vampires, for instance, than I do in how freight trains in movies can somehow stop in 50 yards if you hit the brakes. I have an easier time believing in the huge alien warships in "Independence Day" than I do in the idea that their computers are compatible with a Mac.

Really, I'm done with this submarine issue. There was a pretty good issue happening here otherwise, and even them having a submarine was pretty cool -- just ignoring the effing line about the Koreans. That is getting filed next to "only the Sith deal in moral absolutes" as Worst Exposition Ever and getting ignored :) Surely people would agree that it would be better to offer no explanation at all for the sub -- Satsu just shrugs and says "found it, looked pretty" -- than to offer one that raises more questions than it answers.

Nina, I'm confident that Emmie is right, and the misogyny is what the Swell was about, not what Twilight's about.

sueworld
05-02-09, 01:41 PM
Read it now.

A silly, silly issue, with far too much OOT dialog in it for my taste. If I read the word 'ovary' one more time...:s

And don't get me started on the Sub. :roll:

Sosa lola
05-02-09, 02:45 PM
Sorry, but we already left the realm of reasonable technological expectations when a 50 ft robot was created that was uploaded with Dawn's quirks. ;)

I stopped thinking too hard about reasonable technological expectations when Warren had created a perfect Buffybot in a matter of weeks. :p

Seriously, I have a friend who always nitpicks the show, and all her nitpicks make a lot of sense. But in the end, it's a TV show, just watch it for entertainment and the message behind the scenes, try to look past the silliness and you'll enjoy it more ( plus less headaches) :lol:

Rowan Hawthorn
05-02-09, 03:45 PM
True. It's kinda like Faster-Than-Light Drive in sci-fi films. Yeah, we'll probably never get there, but how much inter-species story are you gonna have if it takes a hundred lifetimes to get from one inhabited planet to another? The stories are not really about FTL drive, that's just a device to set up the situations the stories are actually about.

KingofCretins
05-02-09, 03:50 PM
Anybody see what I'm saying, though? It's easier to accept the stuff that has *no* tie to *anything* real than it is to be shown something based on the real that's completely unbelievable. "Star Trek" phasers are more "believable" than cop show guns that never have to be reloaded.

I was glad to see Pat didn't groove on the submarine either, in his review.

For the humor of it, some of the lyrics to the Mystery Science Theatre 3000 theme --


If you're wondering how he eats and breathes
and other science facts (la la la),
Then repeat to yourself, "It's just a show,
I should really just relax
For Mystery Science Theater 3000!"

Oh, as for the over the top sexual non-metaphors of "get in the mouth" -- how about Satsu saying she could "still taste that furry little bastard", while applying her cinnamon lip gloss? In a conversation between her and Kennedy? Heh.

Sosa lola
05-02-09, 04:04 PM
I just read the issue. I really loved the Satsu/Kennedy stuff, especially Kennedy. Wow, Satsu's calm nature changed 100% after she'd gotten her own squad. She's gotten an attitude. :D

I loved Buffy and Xander on screen, especially Xander's black shirt ;) And the vampire-rights thing, all that stuff is wonderful, Harmony is probably smarter than Angel and Spike in their evil days, she's got the humans against Buffy, how scary is that. :D

Maggie
05-02-09, 04:33 PM
Honestly, the submarine thing didn't even register for me. After seeing the Slayers in helicoptors, a Mecha Dawn (which...I'm sorry, but how is that more believable? Hamnoo?), a mystical rocket and a trip to the future - after all that, the submarine didn't even make a blip on my radar. What *does* bother me are plot devices that serve no real purpose and don't help the story - oh, hey look it's a bunch of tree people <insert root system joke here>.

In the battle of Mecha Dawn vs. Slayers using submarines, how does Mecha Dawn come off as more believable? I saw one explanation saying that the "blue jeans and irony" line and the fact that it was Tokyo explained it away. Hamnoo?

Sorry, but we already left the realm of reasonable technological expectations when a 50 ft robot was created that was uploaded with Dawn's quirks.

If the oh-so-smart Tokyo vamps had merely spent a few thousand dollars on a rocket launcher (according to King) they could have just shot a few of them at Dawn and gone about their business. But that would have made perfect sense. ;)

I so wish I could rep this.

And even if we want to take this question seriously (which as you say is really missing the point), a world in which Xander can get a lasting download of military knowledge because of a brief spell is obviously a world in which Willow can download military knowledge into slayers.

Though did you notice that there was a tree person in LWH? Just saying.

Wolfie Gilmore
05-02-09, 05:11 PM
Overall a fun issue, and I enjoyed the Kennedy and Satsu interactions here. Though it’s starting to really bug me that I don’t know what Satsu’s voice sounds like. I’m sure why that’s suddenly bothering me – perhaps because I was trying to get a sense of the pace of the verbal sparring between her and Kennedy. Anyway, minor point. I like them together, I like that Satsu’s not being all super-gracious and moving on-y about Buffy – she’s a teenager, and teenagers in love are not known for their ability to behave decorously. But glad she’s ready to by the end.

So, that was good stuff. But the main plot was disappointing. I like a good mystical personality alteration – Band Candy, excellent episode – and I don’t mind a wacky macGuffin (case in point, evil enchanted candy) but the evil vampire cat teddy bears who worship Twilight and turn you into a stepford geisha by jumping inside you… it’s just too complicated and silly without being particularly funny. The over-formal/slightly robotic/English-not-mother-tongue way the bears speak is like a lot of the monsters have been lately, and it’s getting tired. It’s like all the creatures talk like Andrew or anya at the moment. Only Andrew and Anya are funnier.

Anyway, I think any real punch that the issue could’ve had got lost under all the silliness. It felt disjointed – the sexism of the Swarm was rather pointless. Straight-up sexist villains never quite work in Buffy. That werewolf hunter…Caleb. It’s too unsubtle. Sorry, I take that back. I think Warren worked, but there was more to him than being sexist I feel – he worked as a whole character, with other drives as well as the hating of women. Then there’s the disastrous PR fallout – I like the idea behind it, but I don’t think it all quite gels together as a story. The storytelling across various locations (Scotland, Japan, Harm in the TV studio) comes across as just a bit scrappy, here, there’s not enough fleshing out of the various scenarios.

After actually reading it, the sub/helicopter stuff didn’t really bother me. But the vampycats… just a bit generic comic-booky and not all that effective as a device or villain, imo. There’s not metaphory goodness there – why make Satsu into a stepfordbot? It’s nowhere near as interesting as turning Willow into warren, say. It doesn’t really say anything about her character in particular, or slayers in general. It’d be thought-provoking if written in 1910 or so, but nowadays, it’s like reading the Female Enuch – it all feels a bit “well, duh!”

I liked Buffy's reaction, though, wanting to take the higher ground, to not just kill vampires, but make an effort to be better themselvse. It may not turn out the smartest move, but I think it says good things about her - given that her moral ground is rather shaky at the moment, attempts to move towards the hight stuff = good!

Emmie
05-02-09, 06:16 PM
Mecha-Dawn is more believable pretty easily -- since it's *completely* rooted in fantasy and doesn't butt up against anything that common sense already tells us things about to distract us, it's easier to just accept it and move on. Teenagers using a stolen military submarine butts up against all kinds of everyday realities that make it harder to suspend disbelief.

Only if you're expecting them to not use magic. Don't understand why you're expecting them to rightly have the knowledge to man the sub. They have wiccas. Stealing property, knowledge and skill. The verse is *completely* rooted in fantasy as our the slayers abilities. Why is magic not applicable in this situation when it's clearly needed?


Ia world in which Xander can get a lasting download of military knowledge because of a brief spell is obviously a world in which Willow can download military knowledge into slayers.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeep. :)

And this question regarding the submarine has been included in this issue's Q&A - we'll see if it satisfies.

Vampire in Rug
05-02-09, 06:17 PM
King, I completely get what you're saying in regards to blurring the lines between fantasy and reality. Vampires, werewolves and Mecha-Dawn I can accept because they are so "out there" that they're not even attempting realizm. Helicopters and submarines are real, and to throw them into the mix without any explanation can be a bit jarring.

Let's compare Batman and Superman. I roll my eyes more at stuff Batman does than stuff Superman does. Superman is from another planet, and that's all the explanation he needs for his powers as far as I'm concerned. Batman on the other hand... he just happens to be good at literally, everything. Another Superman example that bothers a lot of people is when he reverses the rotation of the planet to go back in time in the first movie. I'll happily accept that he can fire heat-beams from his eyes, and exhale freezing cold air, because his powers are rooted in fantasy. But when he reverses the rotation of Earth to "go back in time"... that's screwing with realizm in a way that's very jarring. Anybody with a basic, children's level understanding of science can tell you how impossibly stupid that is.

I'm rambling and way off topic. But King, yeah I get what you're saying and I agree. Fantasy is fantasy and doesn't have to be thought about. But when you mix fantasy with reality it does force you to think about it, and realize how crazy the situation is.

sueworld
05-02-09, 06:37 PM
Ia world in which Xander can get a lasting download of military knowledge because of a brief spell is obviously a world in which Willow can download military knowledge into slayers.

But at least that was shown and explained in the show. This has just been thrown in here like we're all got to accept it without question. I'm afraid it really doesn't work for me, and folks 'fanwanking' in the details just makes this whole idea seem even weaker to me.


why make Satsu into a stepfordbot? It’s nowhere near as interesting as turning Willow into warren, say. It doesn’t really say anything about her character in particular, or slayers in general. It’d be thought-provoking if written in 1910 or so, but nowadays, it’s like reading the Female Enuch – it all feels a bit “well, duh!”


Oh I totally agree there.

KingofCretins
05-02-09, 06:47 PM
I'd say that there's a pretty obvious difference between Xander's magic training and the presumptive Slayers. The first is provided by the series to explain the plot to the audience. The second is provided by the audience to explain the plot to the series.

And about Willow magically training Slayers... hasn't the Buffyverse been pretty hostile toward intentionally altering people's minds? Gunn? Tara? Xander's training (basically erased by Season 4) was a magical side effect to something a villain did. Every other time a good guy has willingly participated in having their own or someone else's mind "improved", it's been considered a uniformly bad thing. But for this purpose, we'll go *against* theme as a fanwank for the sub? Okay. I'll accept that, for argument's sake. So will we be exploring the moral implications of Buffy and Willow getting into the Senior Partners' line of work of "upgrading" people?

And, really, I'm not as interested in the "why do they know how to drive it" a as in the "on what planet would they ever think it's a good idea to have it and keep it". When really scrutinizing it, that they know how to drive it is actually the least silly part of including it at all.

In the effort to sustain any part of the conversation that *doesn't* have to do with the submarine, Wolfie, I'm glad you agree about the tone of the Swell -- the Uber-Sexism just felt a little trite. I still don't get it.

But I disagree about Buffy's "high road" approach. At this point, they can't just ignore the vampire PR war. Right now, they're only public acts are things that get only one interpretation, by the bad guys. That's not going to help them. Put Dawn (film her face) on TV as a spokesperson. Put Willow on Larry King opposite Harmony. No matter how disgustingly banal it is, they need to create their own narrative here.

Wolfie Gilmore
05-02-09, 06:54 PM
In the effort to sustain any part of the conversation that *doesn't* have to do with the submarine, Wolfie, I'm glad you agree about the tone of the Swell -- the Uber-Sexism just felt a little trite. I still don't get it.

Yes, the issue wasn’t entirely about submarines after all :D

With the sexism, I’m just a little confused about the point of it all? Isn’t the interesting tension here the slayers’ magic-ness, their potentially demony-terrorist-y threat image? If those vampire things had made Satsu go all rogue slayer, that would’ve fitted better. Perhaps making the demon-juice stuff that’s latent in slayerness come to the fore? Giving her black eyes, like a Supernatural demon perhaps ;)


But I disagree about Buffy's "high road" approach. At this point, they can't just ignore the vampire PR war.

Oh yes, I agree that it’s not necessarily a good tactic from a PR point of view, I just find it encouraging that she’s keen to not only kill evil things, but to try to be positively good. It doesn’t make her an effective leader in the current climate, but it’s just a sign that she’s concerned with doing the right thing as well as the expedient thing. What she needs now is someone to advise her about expediency.


Put Willow on Larry King opposite Harmony. No matter how disgustingly banal it is, they need to create their own narrative here.

I would love to see that.

For viral advertising. they should employ Sarah Haskins to do a “Target: Women”, Slayer edition (if you’ve never seen Sarah Haskins, do it now, she’s brilliant – her piece about advertising yoghurt to women had me aching with laughter).

Maggie
05-02-09, 07:03 PM
I'd say that there's a pretty obvious difference between Xander's magic training and the presumptive Slayers. The first is provided by the series to explain the plot to the audience. The second is provided by the audience to explain the plot to the series.

Funny we're changing sides on this. Usually you think gaps are easily explained by fans so people oughtn't to be worried about questions the show has not answered. Anyway, in this case it's just a simple matter of parallelism. If magic could give Xander knowledge then we know that there's at least one way knowledge could have gotten into the slayers. As for how the knowledge actually got there, how on earth does it matter?


And about Willow magically training Slayers... hasn't the Buffyverse been pretty hostile toward intentionally altering people's minds? Gunn? Tara? Xander's training (basically erased by Season 4) was a magical side effect to something a villain did. Every other time a good guy has willingly participated in having their own or someone else's mind "improved", it's been considered a uniformly bad thing. But for this purpose, we'll go *against* theme as a fanwank for the sub? Okay. I'll accept that, for argument's sake. So will we be exploring the moral implications of Buffy and Willow getting into the Senior Partners' line of work of "upgrading" people?

If they wanted to make the story about this, then we'd have seen Willow doing it. Things don't always add up in the verse, King. Technically Xander did a spell that caused a lot of people to die, knew that they were dying, and still didn't do a thing about it. But we swept that under the rug because that's really not what OMWF was about.

In this season we get a Mecha Dawn who knows a LOT about the real Dawn. Is this a plot point? Should we be asking how the Japanese vamps got all this information about her? It's not that it couldn't turn out to be a plot point, but it's well within established norms of just junking in stuff like that for other plot points or even just for jokes so it doesn't have to mean anything that the Japanese vamps know how to mimic Dawn.


In the effort to sustain any part of the conversation that *doesn't* have to do with the submarine, Wolfie, I'm glad you agree about the tone of the Swell -- the Uber-Sexism just felt a little trite. I still don't get it.

I agree with you on this. I find it very puzzling. I'm hoping the weirdness of this DOES turn out to be a meaningful plot point.

sueworld
05-02-09, 07:21 PM
I agree with you on this. I find it very puzzling. I'm hoping the weirdness of this DOES turn out to be a meaningful plot point.
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Maybe they were created by Warren or something, and he put a little of himself into the mix?

Rowan Hawthorn
05-02-09, 07:48 PM
Well, the Swell weren't actually vampire kitties, after all, rather some type of demon (did they remind anyone else of the Krites (Crites?) from "Critters" in the way they could cluster together into a single entity? No? Okay, just me, then...) even though they did have some vampiric traits.

KingofCretins
05-02-09, 07:59 PM
With the sexism, I’m just a little confused about the point of it all? Isn’t the interesting tension here the slayers’ magic-ness, their potentially demony-terrorist-y threat image? If those vampire things had made Satsu go all rogue slayer, that would’ve fitted better. Perhaps making the demon-juice stuff that’s latent in slayerness come to the fore? Giving her black eyes, like a Supernatural demon perhaps ;)

So she's gonna try to have sex with one of the Winchesters? Diabolical.


Oh yes, I agree that it’s not necessarily a good tactic from a PR point of view, I just find it encouraging that she’s keen to not only kill evil things, but to try to be positively good. It doesn’t make her an effective leader in the current climate, but it’s just a sign that she’s concerned with doing the right thing as well as the expedient thing. What she needs now is someone to advise her about expediency.



I would love to see that.

A lot of people have actually objected to Buffy's "more than human" phrase, because it implies that she now sees the Slayers as transcendant of humanity instead of part of it. I don't think I read it that way. I think she probably meant to go to the Rob Zombie place with it, and perhaps DeKnight did, but it would have blown the Jossness of the line and the "less-than". I took it as her wanting them to project a Perfectly Normal-ness to the world, not a saintly or superhuman presence that's above reproach. If she wanted "above reproach"... well, again, the "big metal tube that goes underwater".


For viral advertising. they should employ Sarah Haskins to do a “Target: Women”, Slayer edition (if you’ve never seen Sarah Haskins, do it now, she’s brilliant – her piece about advertising yoghurt to women had me aching with laughter).

Means nothing to me, but I'd settle for a Scooby version of "Eyes Only" (Dark Angel!), except with Xander -- they could call it "Eye Only". Or they could get out there on YouTube. How about Paris Hilton's energy plan commercial? Put Kennedy in a bikini and have her lay there talking about how Slayers are misunderstood.


Funny we're changing sides on this. Usually you think gaps are easily explained by fans so people oughtn't to be worried about questions the show has not answered. Anyway, in this case it's just a simple matter of parallelism. If magic could give Xander knowledge then we know that there's at least one way knowledge could have gotten into the slayers. As for how the knowledge actually got there, how on earth does it matter?

The difference is, I don't concede this is the "easy" explanation" in the sense that it's not minimalist in its effects. If they are suddenly going all Matrix with the uploadable skills through Willow, they really are reversing a lot of the morality, first of all, and second of all, it sets up a blanket justification for Slayers having an entire military if they want one. Third of all... the next issue deals with Simone. We're going from an issue where Buffy herself signs off on keeping a submarine that has cruise missiles to Buffy going after a Slayer with whom her main disagreement with is that Buffy thinks Slayers should never carry a gun?


I agree with you on this. I find it very puzzling. I'm hoping the weirdness of this DOES turn out to be a meaningful plot point.


Maybe they were created by Warren or something, and he put a little of himself into the mix?

I'm okay with the Swell just being a one-off, MOTW. The plot-arc relevance is that they were cute -- they were part of the ongoing effort to get the public to embrace vampires. Otherwise, I hope their philosophy has nothing at all to do with the season.

The best parallel to "Swell" in the televised seasons I can think of is, I don't know, "I Robot, You Jane" -- a more or less absurd MOTW plot that serves as a setting for actually pretty decent character progression. Satsu and Kennedy were both so great in this issue. They are... hmmm, what would be the lesbian equivalent of "hetero lifemates"? They should be a team again later. Kennedy is Comeback Character of the Season and Satsu is in the argument for best new character in "Buffy" since as far back as Faith, at least.

Curiouswolf
05-02-09, 08:23 PM
What were the Swell saying? What was Satsu speaking when she was possessed by one? I'm still waiting for my copy. I need some exact quotes. I have a theory about these kitties :hf2:.

Rowan Hawthorn
05-02-09, 08:28 PM
A lot of people have actually objected to Buffy's "more than human" phrase, because it implies that she now sees the Slayers as transcendant of humanity instead of part of it. I don't think I read it that way.
Neither did I. I took it as just a bit of hyperbole, to contrast with the less-than-human status of vampires and demons (who are, actually, "less than human".)


Means nothing to me, but I'd settle for a Scooby version of "Eyes Only" (Dark Angel!), except with Xander -- they could call it "Eye Only". Or they could get out there on YouTube. How about Paris Hilton's energy plan commercial? Put Kennedy in a bikini and have her lay there talking about how Slayers are misunderstood.
I could live with that (*shrug* Call me shallow... :D)


Satsu and Kennedy were both so great in this issue. They are... hmmm, what would be the lesbian equivalent of "hetero lifemates"? They should be a team again later. Kennedy is Comeback Character of the Season and Satsu is in the argument for best new character in "Buffy" since as far back as Faith, at least.
I could get behind a spin-off with those two as "Slayers With Attitude". Not that there's a snowball's chance of it ever happening.

Emmie
05-02-09, 08:45 PM
Neither did I. I took it as just a bit of hyperbole, to contrast with the less-than-human status of vampires and demons (who are, actually, "less than human".)

That reading would fly better if she hadn't referred to her Slayer organization as another "race" she'd created in ToYL - "I created a race of Slayers." She's setting Slayers apart in her own mind and she's acting like she's above the laws of the human world. The meaning of that line is that it's meant to resonate on multiple levels. One of which being that Buffy is inadvertently continuing to act like she and hers are better than everyone else.

vampmogs
05-02-09, 11:06 PM
The difference is, I don't concede this is the "easy" explanation" in the sense that it's not minimalist in its effects. If they are suddenly going all Matrix with the uploadable skills through Willow, they really are reversing a lot of the morality, first of all, and second of all, it sets up a blanket justification for Slayers having an entire military if they want one.

Why are people assuming that by using magic it would have uploaded the slayer's brains? The more logical and far more simplistic theory if magic was involved would be that the Wiccan's controlled the machinery, like Willow did in 'Spiral' with the telephone box, or when she surfs the net on her laptop in 'Smashed.' Manipulating technology through magic has been shown to be done a number of times in the series, and it's far more simplistic and far less morally ambiguous that magical mind uploads.


Third of all... the next issue deals with Simone. We're going from an issue where Buffy herself signs off on keeping a submarine that has cruise missiles to Buffy going after a Slayer with whom her main disagreement with is that Buffy thinks Slayers should never carry a gun?

Personally I don't understand why you think this is a flaw in the writing? I think it's completely deliberate and intentional? You're acting as if there's this gaping flaw where Buffy contradicts herself by using submarines and military-like weapons but judges Simone for it, when personally I think it's a great piece of writing. In many respects Buffy's one big walking, talking contradiction this season and 'A Beautiful Sunset' already explored the parallels between her and Simone, it's intentional.


That reading would fly better if she hadn't referred to her Slayer organization as another "race" she'd created in ToYL - "I created a race of Slayers." She's setting Slayers apart in her own mind and she's acting like she's above the laws of the human world. The meaning of that line is that it's meant to resonate on multiple levels. One of which being that Buffy is inadvertently continuing to act like she and hers are better than everyone else.

Completely agree. Her attitude crept up a little right back in 'The Long Way Home' when she gets very preachy and defensive to General Voll about how her girls are saving the world ect. At first I completely agree with her, I still do, he has no right to try and kill them, but it was the first sign that Buffy's pretty high and mighty about her "race" of slayers. It only became even more evident that Buffy was solely concentrated on them when in 'No Future For You' she's ready to kill Gigi not because she killed innocents, but because she killed other *slayers.* They specifically have the word "slayers" bolded there, it's what outrages Buffy the most. That was the first massive sign that something has changed in Buffy.

stormwreath
06-02-09, 02:31 AM
My review: http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/68942.html

Regarding the point that Slayers manning a submarine was out of place because it was too "realistic", compared to the purely fantasy elements like Mecha-Dawn: not really if you watch Japanese anime. The scene of a bunch of teenage girls manning the control deck of a giant war-machine as it fires its weapons at the enemy was just pure Macross/Robotech, or a dozen shows like it. All that was missing is that the Slayers had normal brown, blonde or red hair rather than purple or green hair. :)

It's the same sensibility that had the small Vampy Cats combining into a huge Cat Demon, just as if they were Transformers. Or the fact that the monsters looked like Hello Kitty dolls, or that at one point Satsu was wearing a kimono. DeKnight was playing with every Japanese cliché that 'Wolves At The Gate' hadn't already done to death.

Charles
06-02-09, 04:03 AM
My review: http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/68942.html

Regarding the point that Slayers manning a submarine was out of place because it was too "realistic", compared to the purely fantasy elements like Mecha-Dawn: not really if you watch Japanese anime. The scene of a bunch of teenage girls manning the control deck of a giant war-machine as it fires its weapons at the enemy was just pure Macross/Robotech, or a dozen shows like it. All that was missing is that the Slayers had normal brown, blonde or red hair rather than purple or green hair. :)

It's the same sensibility that had the small Vampy Cats combining into a huge Cat Demon, just as if they were Transformers. Or the fact that the monsters looked like Hello Kitty dolls, or that at one point Satsu was wearing a kimono. DeKnight was playing with every Japanese cliché that 'Wolves At The Gate' hadn't already done to death.

Having watched Anime for 2 plus decades, the sub doesn't quite fit. If it transformed in some way or was run by another super secret organization that NOBODY knew of and just appeared, then it would.

Deknight just doesn't quite get the Japanese style of writing or why those things work in anime and elsewhere. It comes across like an Vin Diesel in The Pacifier. In theory its a good idea, it just never turns out that well.

Wolfie Gilmore
06-02-09, 11:45 AM
So she's gonna try to have sex with one of the Winchesters? Diabolical.

If that’s what counts as an evil plan then I’m sure there are a lot of people on the forum (well, and the internets) who’d be willing to get black roots PDQ… :D [Off topic, but I only recently started finding Dean hot… I am a little slow off the mark… I just thought he was a di’ck at first]




A lot of people have actually objected to Buffy's "more than human" phrase, because it implies that she now sees the Slayers as transcendant of humanity instead of part of it. I don't think I read it that way.

Me either, though I can see why people have a problem with it. I think it’s a case of Buffy’s rhetoric carrying her away. Sometimes, in speech mode, I don’t think she’s really imagining the implications and impact of her words. All in all, she’s a rubbish PR person when she *tries* to do PR. When she’s just herself, doing her job, that’s when Buffy comes off best. Buffy being awesome is the best advertisement for slayerness. Buffy telling you why slayers are awesome is not.

Buffy needs to go around being more awesome. King, I agree, keeping a low profile is poor PR. If Buffy could stage a few Spiderman moments to spin the story back in her favour, save some kiddies from burning buildings or something, I’m sure people would come around. While friendly vampires is the thing this news cycle, hot chicks with superpowers could just as easily be the next cycle – especially if they use their powers for less than threatening things, like saving people rather than killing things.

Ok, that’s not the best use of their time on an average slayday, but if the alternative is being on the run all the time, I think it’s a sound plan. :D


I took it as her wanting them to project a Perfectly Normal-ness to the world, not a saintly or superhuman presence that's above reproach.

I think I took it somewhere in between – sort of “we have to be the bigger person”, turn the other cheek up to a point, and show we’re not going to play their game.


Put Kennedy in a bikini and have her lay there talking about how Slayers are misunderstood.

They should do their own reality TV show – sort of a day in the life of a slayer. And, if they want to sell their feminist souls to save their figurative asses, they could spend quite a long time filming pillow fights...

To an extent, I think that going black ops would be a good idea, in that it’ll let them go about their business without having to explain their every move. They could fake their own deaths :D Ok, maybe not. But some degree of discretion might be an idea. Either that or they need to find themselves some powerful establishment allies. I think they need to talk to Giles and see if there’s anyone in the UK government who’d be willing to back them, since that’s where they’re based. The Watcher’s Council must have some government connections left? You’d think there’d be a network that they tapped into, connected to the secret services and Whitehall? How did they pull all their bureaucracy stunts in the past if not? Frankly, they must have US connections too, given that they had the ability to revoke Giles’s green card etc.



I'm okay with the Swell just being a one-off, MOTW.

I think I’d rather have them as a spin-off one shot (like the online thingie), as I’m eager for big stuff to happen in the main story after all the back and forth in time. I think I felt like I wanted more about how the slayers are actually getting treated, what their experiences are, not so much having people talk about it – more show not tell, ya know? Too many talking heads gets dull after a while, and if the new premise is that people know about slayers, well, I’d quite like to see slayers interacting with those people rather than just being talked about on telly.

Also, for fun, I want to see slayers reading about themselves on anti-slayer websites and leaving comments like Josh Lyman did on Lemonlyman.com on the West Wing. Or Angel and his “chattyrooms”. :D

Maybe a National Enquirer headline or two seen left lying around on tables? “Slayers? Are they all lesbians?” or “Buffy puts on ten pounds” which is more likely to be the focus of media interest in any young woman to be honest…

I can’t quite put my finger on it, but there’s something about this issue and the past few that’s felt like it’s skating over the interesting stuff, skipping too quickly past what could be really interesting character moments and experiences. I guess I’ll have to come back at the end of the season and think about how all this fits together. But something’s not quite hitting the spot at the moment.


They are... hmmm, what would be the lesbian equivalent of "hetero lifemates"? They should be a team again later. Kennedy is Comeback Character of the Season and Satsu is in the argument for best new character in "Buffy" since as far back as Faith, at least.

They could totally be Provenza and Flynn, the lesbian version :D

vampmogs
06-02-09, 11:56 AM
I think what they need to do is bring Twilight out into the open. That's what Buffy should be focusing on, if they want to come off as the innocent ones in this they need to point out that a guy wants a genocide of the slayers. Making comparisons with the Holocaust and all that, because that's basically what Twilight is opting for. I can’t see he public supporting that. He may have a point about something things and may have cause for being concerned about Buffy and her actions but what he wants to do about it is completely wrong, you don't try and wipe out a whole group of women, ya just don't. There's no excuse for that. Of course, Twilight views the slayers a different race (much like Buffy now apparently) so perhaps that's how he justifies it? Perhaps they appear demonic to him?

Or they could just try the other option, I like the idea of the ‘Spiderman’ like stunts Wolfie, perhaps try and catch a vamp in the act with a slayer saving the day? Yeah vamps are the hot thing right now but there’d still be plenty of them doing evil things on a daily basis that the slayers could exploit?

I can't say I entirely agree with Buffy going for the black ops approach though. It worked great when they wanted to keep the slayer's a secret but now that they're out in the open it would appear more sinister to the general public if they were all secret and dodgy about their operations. Transparency is usually more favourable in the public eye.

What’s really sad is that Buffy’s actually great at inspiring those around her. Wether it be the Scoobies, or even the Sunnydale High class of 1999. That was always a great moment for Buffy, she was never popular but she’d earned the respect and credibility of her peers that they’d all actually take a stand with her against the Mayor and fight back. She’s capable of it, she’s just so out of touch at the moment. It’d be great if her old class mates started speaking out for her though, we could have another sweet ‘Prom’ moment on our hands. :heart:

Still waiting to get my hands on the issue before I can give a review.. :(

Wolfie Gilmore
06-02-09, 12:06 PM
I think what they need to do is bring Twilight out into the open. That's what Buffy should be focusing on, if they want to come off as the innocent ones in this they need to point out that a guy wants a genocide of the slayers. Making comparisons with the Holocaust and all that, because that's basically what Twilight is opting for. I can’t see he public supporting that.

That might be a complex thing to sell, though, as you first need to explain who the slayers are. Perhaps what they should do is do an expose about sunnydale – find former sunnydale residents, people who went to school with Buffy, get them to explain who slayers are, where they came from, and how hard they’ve been working silently in the background. Paint them like suffragettes, show their struggles – the public like suffering women who stand tall in the face of pain and difficulty. Paint them like Oprah. :D


What’s really sad is that Buffy’s actually great at inspiring those around her. Wether it be the Scoobies, or even the Sunnydale High class of 1999. That was always a great moment for Buffy, she was never popular but she’d earned the respect and credibility of her peers that they’d all actually take a stand with her against the Mayor and fight back. She’s capable of it, she’s just so out of touch at the moment. It’d be great if her old class mates started speaking out for her though, we could have another sweet ‘Prom’ moment on our hands. :heart:

I think she’s good at inspiring people when she’s not *trying* to inspire anyone – when she’s just being herself and getting things done, talking from the heart. I think she needs to reconnect with that. It’s hard, when you’re in the middle of something so sprawling, but it does seem to be something that would do her and everyone good. Not just from a PR standpoint, but for her own sake and the sake of the slayer mission.



Or they could just try the other option, I like the idea of the ‘Spiderman’ like stunts Wolfie, perhaps try and catch a vamp in the act with a slayer saving the day? Yeah vamps are the hot thing right now but there’d still be plenty of them doing evil things on a daily basis that the slayers could exploit?

Yeah, not all vampires are going on telly and being blonde. Many will still be munching down on people, so you just need to catch them in the act and have a slayer save the munch-ee.

Re Spiderman, has anyone read the Obama/Spiderman comic? If Buffy was in 2009, she could totally sort out her issues by getting her photo taken saving Obama from a vampire. Instant world pardon!


I can't say I entirely agree with Buffy going for the black ops approach though. It worked great when they wanted to keep the slayer's a secret but now that they're out in the open it would appear more sinister to the general public if they were all secret and dodgy about their operations. Transparency is usually more favourable in the public eye.

Hmm, maybe you’re right on that one.


Stormwreath, I’m quoting you from lj, hope you don’t mind…


What is really interesting is that many of Possessed!Satsu's criticisms of the Slayers are, in fact, things that many of the fans have been raising as problems about them:

”I mean, why are Slayers so aggro? With the hacking and the chopping and the staking! We should be ashamed of ourselves, bringing so much misery into the world! We're nothing but a bunch of self-righteous little ovaries! We march around playing soldier, deciding who's evil and who's not. We're the evil ones! And we're going to get what we deserve!"

Well, the argument is now out there on the page; but given the context, I think the messenger was specifically chosen to discredit it in our eyes. After all, Satsu is basically saying that it's not up to a bunch of women to make important decisions about good and evil or to take action to change the world, when they ought to be staying at home and making babies

And…


The idea that the people opposed to the Slayers - or at least these particular people - are motivated by misogyny seems to be laid on with a trowel by deKnight.

Trowel is right. I just don’t get why? It’s very interesting, having a villain who has some criticisms of the slayers that the readers also have – a villain who’s semi-right, or at least, whose perspective we can understand (slayers are potentially dangerous). But adding in the sexism makes the whole thing just seem crass, a straw man that’s easy to discredit.

vampmogs
06-02-09, 04:18 PM
In the Buffy/Angel thread we were discussing season eight and Nile brought up how Faith's the slayer working "the mission" now in comparison to Buffy. And it got be thinking, why not make Faith the poster girl for the slayers? I think it'd be an excellent twist for the character and would work great to expand on the parallels they have already established between Buffy/Faith this season in 'No Future For You.'

Faith once represented the ugliest side of slayer-hood, she was the "rouge slayer" the thing Giles couldn't "think of anything more dangerous." She had the elitist attitude Buffy now somewhat adopts, "we are better, that's right *better.* People need us to survive" she had the opinion that people are expendable in the bigger picture much like Buffy in 'Time of Your Life,' "people need us to survive, no one is going to cry over some innocent bystander who got caught in the crossfire" and she had the "want. take. have" approach Buffy adopted in 'Anywhere But Here.' She was everything negative about what a slayer could be, and what Buffy and her organisation are seriously risking becoming, but is now the exact opposite. IMO it'd be such a neat twist to have her be the girl they need to show the slayer's off favourably to the populace.

And ya know, it works to give us hope that Buffy isn't too lost and that she can turn herself around. The writers are pulling an Ats season two on us where they're pushing the boundaries of the main character and if they have the guts to do to Buffy what they did with Angel, she's going to fall hard in order to pick herself up and be worthy to not only the world but to the fans. Buffy resembles so much of what Faith used to be and now Faith resembles so much of how you can redeem yourself, it symbolises how Buffy can too.

It'd also be great for her character, it'd give her the recognition she deserves for all the changes she made, it'd work great as a parallel to Angel and his hero status in LA as she is in many ways his prodigy, and it'd actually reflect really nicely on the Scoobies and Buffy in particular if they recognise these changes and not only reward her for them, but believe they can follow by example. :)

I think it'd be a genuinely sweet and touching story for Faith and make them all come across really well, kind of like 'Amends' did for all the characters involved, and it'd help Buffy combat Twilight/Harmony's campaign. :heart:

… this is of course assuming that in the upcoming Giles/Faith issue she’s still fighting the good fight. Which I suspect she is, it’d ruin that great flow and all those great parallels and subversions explored in ‘No Future For You’ if they corrupted Faith as well.

Nina
06-02-09, 04:48 PM
I'm afraid that Faith's past will be a problem, Harmony only has to bring up Faith's crimes and the people will find another reason to be scared for slayers/dislike them. Also Faith being helped by a vampire to find the right path is problematic when you want to 'prove' that slayers are better than vampires.

I think that Angel, Connor or Spike is their best shot for good PR. Those three are heroes and if they are able to explain the deal with the vampires, it would give the slayers some slack. People need a good lesson in vampire mythology and I think that Angel is the person to give that because of his new status and experience with vampires. But also Spike or Connor would be a good option.

vampmogs
06-02-09, 04:59 PM
I'm afraid that Faith's past will be a problem, Harmony only has to bring up Faith's crimes and the people will find another reason to be scared for slayers/dislike them.

Very true, but couldn't Faith very easily combat that with, "Harmony's killed people, kidnapped a 14 year old girl, worked for an evil lawfirm ect." If Faith's really out helping people, and given that they're releasing the Faith/Giles arc in this five issue arc about the "outing" of vampires/slayers, I think it's very possible that this may be the one issue where slayer's win a little credability back, I think Faith will be shown in a good light in this issue.


Also Faith being helped by a vampire to find the right path is problematic when you want to 'prove' that slayers are better than vampires.

Not if she was helped by the vampire champion of LA who liberated everyone from slavery and brought LA back from Hell. :)


I think that Angel, Connor or Spike is their best shot for good PR. Those three are heroes and if they are able to explain the deal with the vampires, it would give the slayers some slack.

Oh I agree, though on the other hand working vampires as people you should trust and listen to also plays right into Twilight's agenda. Though it could work on the other way- see even vampires are saying vampires aren't good news. :roll:

But yeah you're right, they need a lesson on vampire mythology but also on slayer mythology! Explain that for hundreds of years there's been slayers who have saved the world on a nightly basis, who've given up their lives for humanity without ever asking for anything from them, who've died at incredibly young ages from horrible nasty vampires. Give them some of Buffy's backstory even, at the age of sixteen she was prepared to die for others, she rallied all her highschool peers together to save Sunnydale from a giant snake, she gave up her life for the world and for her sister ect.

Sigh, going underground is so not what Buffy should be doing right now! Girl's got to get her head straight! :s

Nina
06-02-09, 05:07 PM
I'm afraid that also the slayers need some lessons in slayer mythology. :( Angel, Spike, Illyria and Connor are doing the job right now. 3 demons and the son of two demons. While the slayers spend more time protecting themselves and killing bad guys. I'm not sure, but wasn't the slayer created to save humanity?

And I think that people won't look at Faith's positive points, just like they don't look at Harmony's negative points. Telling the world that Faith should be in jail for 2 murders, or worse ... that Faith tried to kill Angel (of course only telling what is in your advantage), will be terrible PR. It's so easy to play with the truth and let people believe another reality. Humanity refuses to see the slayers as good guys, so they will spend more time on their negative sides. It's how it works ...

Too bad that Wesley died, he would be the perfect PR man. He is the best friend of hero Angel, he is the one who made the plan that saved LA and he actually studied for all those things. He is a 'professor' in the supernatural and probably liked by many people.

vampmogs
06-02-09, 05:19 PM
Well I'm not sure the slayers can be faulted for all the time spending protecting themselves. They're only having to do that because the bad guys keep attacking them. If it wasn't the army in 'The Long Way Home' it was the vamps in 'Wolves At The Gate' then Twilight in 'A Beautiful Sunset' then Warren/Amy's bomb in 'Time of Your Life.' Though I guess could say these attacks aren't always completely unprovoked if you follow Twilight's logic that robbing banks, obtaining weaponry ect is inviting people to attack you.

Buffy hasn't completely refrained from patrolling though. She and Satsu go to the cemetery to do just that and at the beginning of 'After These Messages' she's completely exhausted because that's all she's been doing. And that's generally what Satsu and co seem to be doing at the start of 'Swell.'

Speaking of this issue, seeing as how the slayer/submarine issue seems to be pretty hot topic around here, it's worth posting Allie's comments on this when asked about it over on Slayalives QA;

15. bishopcruz: Throughout the series we have seen that the gang has gotten more than a bit of military training. I mean flying a helicopter is one thing, but in this issue we saw the Japan squad piloting a military submarine, something that takes a not inconsequential amount of training and crew to pilot. How did they learn all of this stuff?

Scott Allie: Emmie tells me this has been a topic of some discussion. With all the resources the Slayers have managed to exploit, I think it's reasonable to assume that they could have either recruited girls that had the military background, or gotten the information through nefarious means and studied it sufficiently. Their means are not insignificant. For seven years on the show we saw Willow's ability to answer any question with what must only have been a Google search. With an army of hundreds of girls worldwide, and considerable military equipment already in their possession, there are a lot of ways they could have prepared for this, I think. And with the girls spending all of their time training, you must realize that it's not all martial arts.

But this is the sort of question that, as a writer, you give a moment's consideration to, decide that it's plausible—given the other things about the stories we've all accepted—and move on. I don't think these are the sorts of things for which we should stop the story cold, in order to provide an explanation. Shakespeare has a great line, which I've got to look up because I reference it so often. When asked about a particular off-stage plot point, something to do with how a character got from point A to point B, the bard said something along the lines of, "I could have come up with an explanation for that, but it wasn't interesting." Now, I think the key here is more the "could have" than the "wasn't interesting." If he felt he could not come up with an explanation, then he should have changed that thing which he could not explain. But since he knew the explanation was sitting there waiting for him, the lack of interest meant it had no place in the story. That, I think, applies here. How could an organization with agents worldwide, seemingly unlimited funding, and both magic and high tech on their side, come up with the skills to pilot a submarine? I think they could have worked it out.

I dunno... I can see his point, why couldn't they get training? If they're getting funding for helicopters and such it only makes sense they'd also be getting trained to use these vehicles simultaneously? Though I understand why people have reservations concerning the submarine, as it wasn’t already part of their arsenal so therefore they really wouldn’t have been trained to use it?

sueworld
06-02-09, 05:25 PM
I'm sorry I think his answers so weak. And doesn't fill me with much confidence for the rest of the series really If this is their attitude to how they're going to deal with certain plot points.

vampmogs
06-02-09, 05:29 PM
It may be "weak" but unfortunately, he's 100% right in saying that the show's had no issues with being pretty casual about the plot when it needs to be and this should be no exception. There’s really no point in having double standards about this in comparison to the other flops he used as an example. My only disappointment is that the writers are fully aware they do this on occasion and continue to do it rather than not.

But yeah, he's right, it doesn't stop the story cold, the themes and messages behind the story are far more important than these kinda questions. They can be goofed, he's right in saying military training would be available to them if they really wanted it- it's not something so beyond belief that the story makes no sense, it's just not something so casual people don't even have to think about it.

sueworld
06-02-09, 05:33 PM
But Joss stated pretty early on that many areas of the story wouldn't be filled in, and that he wouldn't let 'little details' get in the way of telling a good story.

Thing is his idea of what constitutes 'little details' is turning out to be quite a lot different to some other peoples. My own included. It just comes across as pretty lazy way to go about things really.

Morrydwen
06-02-09, 05:42 PM
I agree with Allie. Sure, we could find out how they know how to pilot a sub. But it's not interesting, and personally, I don't care. If they have a nuclear weapon, then I'm gonna want to know how that happened. Sub? Pfft, whatever, who cares. The story was still fun and I loved it!

Emmie
06-02-09, 07:53 PM
I still find it funny that we're quibbling about this when a bunch of teenagers were able to infiltrate an Army base and steal a rocket launcher back in Season 2. Really? Seriously?

We accepted it then and they didn't have the magical abilities and oodles of money and manpower they do now.

sueworld
06-02-09, 08:13 PM
Somehow I still find that less ridiculous the a small bunch of young women nicking a sub and knowing how to use it. :lol:

Maybe it's another case of actors being able to sell the idea better then something on flat piece of artwork. You can paper over the cracks better?

Sosa lola
06-02-09, 08:23 PM
I still find it funny that we're quibbling about this when a bunch of teenagers were able to infiltrate an Army base and steal a rocket launcher back in Season 2. Really? Seriously?


I think we better focus on the story and forget about those minor details. I have a friend who couldn't enjoy the show because she thinks too much about those minor details ( like a 20 year old boy building a perfect human bot in a couple of weeks, that's more ridiculous than stealing a sub and knowing how to use it.)

Morrydwen
06-02-09, 08:35 PM
I think we better focus on the story and forget about those minor details. I have a friend who couldn't enjoy the show because she thinks too much about those minor details ( like a 20 year old boy building a perfect human bot in a couple of weeks, that's more ridiculous than stealing a sub and knowing how to use it.)

This! Exactly this! :thumbup:

KingofCretins
06-02-09, 08:36 PM
I still don't agree -- phasers are more believable than guns with unlimited bullets. The Buffybot is a phaser, a hijacked submarine is the latter. I'm not sure that a stolen rocket launcher is either a phaser or unlimited bullets -- it's just a teenage prank, really, albeit a more audacious one than normal. It's not necessarily anymore implausible than stealing a car from a police impound.

I'm glad that the vampy cats aren't going to be back -- they can take their goofy ovary-munching right on out of being confused for a theme of the season.

Wolfie, the Spider-Man idea is brilliant -- but here's the problem I'm wondering about. Are vampires still going to take the bait? Are they still hunting and killing? Or has Harmony's "mainstreaming" yielded a ready supply of willing victims?

I guess, the broader question is -- are most vampires like Angelus and Darla, killing for the fun and the poetry? Or are most vampires like Spike or Harmony, for whom killing (humans at least) is just about the food? The Slayers need to be able to show that they are evil for evil's sake.

Wolfie Gilmore
06-02-09, 08:53 PM
Wolfie, the Spider-Man idea is brilliant -- but here's the problem I'm wondering about. Are vampires still going to take the bait? Are they still hunting and killing? Or has Harmony's "mainstreaming" yielded a ready supply of willing victims? I guess, the broader question is -- are most vampires like Angelus and Darla, killing for the fun and the poetry? Or are most vampires like Spike or Harmony, for whom killing (humans at least) is just about the food?

Interesting question. I'm guessing there's quite a mixed bag. Some are more pragmatic, some more romantic and in it for the "art" of evil, some just a little bit animal or impulsive (eg Spike). I imagine they're (almost) as varied as humans in their drives, aside from bloodlust. But I still think there'll be plenty of them out there feeding. Blood. Blood is liiiiife. :D *eats bugs*

Hm, that makes me want to see some more vampires soon, and not just fake cat vampires. Come on, grr, nasty! Vamipres! :)

Emmie
06-02-09, 09:06 PM
I'm not sure that a stolen rocket launcher is either a phaser or unlimited bullets -- it's just a teenage prank, really, albeit a more audacious one than normal. It's not necessarily anymore implausible than stealing a car from a police impound.

Sorry, but wah huh? Stealing a rocket launcher is a teenage prank? Seems like you're over-minimalizing that crime in the past, which manages to overdramatize commandeering the submarine from vampires. Teenage pranks are when a kid spray paints his high school or gives the nerd a wedgie or puts rotten eggs or fish in the school's A/C unit. Not stealing a rocket launcher from a military base and using it in a public venue. That'll get you thrown in the slammer but good. And nowadays it would be seen as a serious act of terrorism. Equating it to a teenage prank is the tone that the show gave the act, but that's not the reality of the situation. The show made it look easy just the way the comic makes manning a sub look easy here. Magic, money and perhaps some black market military connections for how they do already have military helicopters. A rocket launcher is far more dramatic than say, bringing guns to school. And when that happens, it's not a prank. It's often a horrific crime resulting in tragedy.

I'm really not understanding why magic is being dismissed from the equation. Willow made a non-functioning payphone come back to life and function properly in Spiral. A magic spell gave Xander military knowledge from his costume. It's definitely possible and has been shown to be true in the past.

Sorry to keep harping on this but I'm actually in the camp that it wasn't really important to focus on this detail, but it seems to mess with other fans quite a bit. I don't really see why.

KingofCretins
06-02-09, 09:21 PM
Nobody's "dismissing magic". It's aim small, miss small. A witch can say a little thing and payphone works -- even if someone is inclined to say "that's cheesy and unbelievable", it's minor. Even the rocket launcher, as a one-off device, not something Buffy said "let's keep that handy, we're gonna need it" (and referenced again five seasons later for a joke), is aim small, miss small. A sub, Buffy planning to keep it, and any of the plausible explanations for how it would work, are aim really, really big, miss really, really big. Willow might be able to make all that work or make the sub run off a wii-mote (which, really, would have been funnier and more "believable" -- it's a phaser). But any time you go with the big phlebotenum, you risk making people lose the story to think about it, and it's better to aim small and miss small.

This damn submarine has become kudzu, it pops up everywhere and you can't get rid of it. I thought it was a pretty minor point when I brought it up in my first post. I for one will be wearing pink taffeta as chenille doesn't go with my complexion, can we please talk about the Ascension?

dinamo
06-02-09, 09:39 PM
In terms of magically giving people knowledge of things, didn't W&H do something similar to Gunn with the lawyer knowledge as well?

Morrydwen
06-02-09, 09:42 PM
I applaud your reference, KoC!

allthings
07-02-09, 12:23 AM
im wasnt a fan of this issue. i loved steven s de knights buffy eps but this was rather disappointing. also im not a kennedy fan so that would be a big reason for less enjoyent of the issie. the little vampy cats were a little silly too me... like a poor mans version of child play but not good . it was strange how one got inside satsu. how many lesbian references were there in this issue aswell?? i did laugh at 'girl licker' like haha. oh and the mention of ovaries a few times was a bit much.

im also not seein how slayers are the enemy all because harmony had an mtv show, its a little extreme too me.

sorry for the negative post, just didnt feel this issue :(

Emmie
07-02-09, 12:30 AM
In terms of magically giving people knowledge of things, didn't W&H do something similar to Gunn with the lawyer knowledge as well?


Indeed. But perhaps instantly gaining knowledge of all law (including all demonic law, languages and culture) is easier than manning a submarine. Wait, no it's not. :)

And King, come on. It's a point of discussion, one you opened the floor to and continued to argue for many, many posts on Whedonesque. Just because you're tired of it doesn't mean you get to close the door to the topic. Retire from the field if you don't like the direction of the conversation, but let's not try to put a kabosh on a topic for an issue that's only been in print for 2 whole days. Some people haven't even read the issue yet and would like to discuss it. So let's pause before we slam that book shut and say, "Case closed."

...something I don't believe is fair to ever really happen in a forum discussion. Tell me my points are repetitive, break down the argument, but don't tell me I can't talk about it and need to move on.

KingofCretins
07-02-09, 12:53 AM
Indeed. But perhaps instantly gaining knowledge of all law (including all demonic law, languages and culture) is easier than manning a submarine. Wait, no it's not. :)

And King, come on. It's a point of discussion, one you opened the floor to and continued to argue for many, many posts on Whedonesque. Just because you're tired of it doesn't mean you get to close the door to the topic. Retire from the field if you don't like the direction of the conversation, but let's not try to put a kabosh on a topic for an issue that's only been in print for 2 whole days. Some people haven't even read the issue yet and would like to discuss it. So let's pause before we slam that book shut and say, "Case closed."

...something I don't believe is fair to ever really happen in a forum discussion. Tell me my points are repetitive, break down the argument, but don't tell me I can't talk about it and need to move on.

Giles didn't really get anyone to stop talking about Prom either -- it was more a way to emphasize that this really is such a small part of the issue in general.

I accept whatever basic proposition anyone wants to give for how they pulled it off. Willow made the whole thing run off an XBox, great; Willow did a mental upload thing, great. That part's done with, but this is the first time I think Season 8 has put people in a position where the Willow-it-too-powerful critics, with whom I've disagreed completely, finally have a point. She really has become the "I win" button if she can infuse an indefinite number of Slayers with expert military skills of any kind needed, *or* if she she can magically bring military vessels and technology under control for anyone to use. It's even worse if it's *not* Willow, and it's just Satsu's own witches.

I get that this is something that they decided didn't need explanation, and I get why -- I figured from the start that this would probably never get a meaningful exploration of the issues it creates, because they aren't the focus. But it's the first time we've gotten something of the "we're not really going to explain the phlebotenum" variety this season that means skipping over pretty huge narrative implications (Willow = way more powerful than we had any reason to guess?) and even moral ones (if it's a mental upgrade one -- that kind of choice fits right into the theme of the season, so if it's what happened, wouldn't we want to talk about it?)

My biggest hope for the sub is that the dichotomy between Buffy being allowed to have a sub and Simone needing to be hunted down because she carried a gun at least mentioned in 8.23. That would go a long way to justify the sub in the story.

Is Satsu actually "over" Buffy now, or is she just in a snit?

Emmie
07-02-09, 01:13 AM
Giles didn't really get anyone to stop talking about Prom either -- it was more a way to emphasize that this really is such a small part of the issue in general.

Which is quite a good point. We're not in this forum trying to save the world and being distracted by minutiae and shallow high school gatherings. We're here to talk, discuss and debate the issue. That includes what seems to be the hot topic of #22 - OH ME GEE subs. :)

And that's the way the discussion always goes - focus on certain issues in detail. I've already given my comprehensive view of the issue in its entirety and I actually hadn't engaged in this discussion of the subs on any other board except here. And I'm not enjoying being told I need to move on from the topic that I'm already aware is a minute detail. My whole point is that everyone is making it such a big deal when it isn't all that important and is easily explained away.


I accept whatever basic proposition anyone wants to give for how they pulled it off. Willow made the whole thing run off an XBox, great; Willow did a mental upload thing, great. That part's done with, but this is the first time I think Season 8 has put people in a position where the Willow-it-too-powerful critics, with whom I've disagreed completely, finally have a point. She really has become the "I win" button if she can infuse an indefinite number of Slayers with expert military skills of any kind needed, *or* if she she can magically bring military vessels and technology under control for anyone to use. It's even worse if it's *not* Willow, and it's just Satsu's own witches.

Then I guess it's worse in your eyes because Willow and Buffy didn't know about the sub prior to them using it. *shrugs* And how are you able to judge how powerful the Wicca are that work for Satsu? Magic in the 'verse is largely there to fit the needs of the characters and to then have negative consequences afterwards. Fix it with magic. Ba da bing.


I get that this is something that they decided didn't need explanation, and I get why -- I figured from the start that this would probably never get a meaningful exploration of the issues it creates, because they aren't the focus. But it's the first time we've gotten something of the "we're not really going to explain the phlebotenum" variety this season that means skipping over pretty huge narrative implications (Willow = way more powerful than we had any reason to guess?) and even moral ones (if it's a mental upgrade one -- that kind of choice fits right into the theme of the season, so if it's what happened, wouldn't we want to talk about it?)

A mental upgrade is something that Ethan did inadvertently in worshipping chaos. Heck it could be as simple as a witch saying "Reveale" like Willow in Smashed for the operations manual for how to run the submarine or doing a spell that enhances mental acuity in understanding such matters. This isn't the type of magic that requires big guns, like say time travel or healing dozens of solders with mortal wounds or instantly healing herself from a lobotomy, or teleporting Buffy back from an unknown location. It calls for less magic than undoing the Ancients power spell the Tokyo vamps had also. It's actually playing with a fantasy concept that is supposed to be possible through popular science (i.e. Dollhouse, Gunn in AtS, Xander in Halloween) where knowledge is transferable through magic or science. Or hey, how about The Pretender having instant abilities once he studies a subject? That happens without the added ampage of magic. Magic changes the ballgame.


Is Satsu actually "over" Buffy now, or is she just in a snit?

Neither. Both are a bit insulting to say about Satsu, though. Why would she immediately be over Buffy considering she really loved her? Why would her finally walking away and tossing the lipgloss in the trash mean she's in a snit? I think she's finally worked herself to a place where she's no longer hoping against hope that Buffy will love her. Now she's trying to move on, but that doesn't mean her feelings have disappeared. It takes a while to get over someone, the key here is that she's actually trying to move on now. Before she was stuck pining for Buffy.

KingofCretins
07-02-09, 01:29 AM
Which is quite a good point. We're not in this forum trying to save the world and being distracted by minutiae and shallow high school gatherings. We're here to talk, discuss and debate the issue. That includes what seems to be the hot topic of #22 - OH ME GEE subs. :)

And that's the way the discussion always goes - focus on certain issues in detail. I've already given my comprehensive view of the issue in its entirety and I actually hadn't engaged in this discussion of the subs on any other board except here. And I'm not enjoying being told I need to move on from the topic that I'm already aware is a minute detail. My whole point is that everyone is making it such a big deal when it isn't all that important and is easily explained away.

This cuts both ways -- because it was also never a big deal to acknowledge that it only has to be explained away because it pushed well past what's normally done in the Buffyverse. And so far, I've come to the middle on the idea that's explainable.


Then I guess it's worse in your eyes because Willow and Buffy didn't know about the sub prior to them using it. *shrugs* And how are you able to judge how powerful the Wicca are that work for Satsu? Magic in the 'verse is largely there to fit the needs of the characters and to then have negative consequences afterwards. Fix it with magic. Ba da bing.

You don't think it's an objective matter that controlling the sub/granting the knowledge to control the sub is pretty major magic at work if it was done by the witches? I think it's pretty damn powerful, and I would like to think that they aren't just handing that power to even minor characters.


A mental upgrade is something that Ethan did inadvertently in worshipping chaos. Heck it could be as simple as a witch saying "Reveale" like Willow in Smashed for the operations manual for how to run the submarine or doing a spell that enhances mental acuity in understanding such matters. This isn't the type of magic that requires big guns, like say time travel or healing dozens of solders with mortal wounds or instantly healing herself from a lobotomy, or teleporting Buffy back from an unknown location. It calls for less magic than undoing the Ancients power spell the Tokyo vamps had also. It's actually playing with a fantasy concept that is supposed to be possible through popular science (i.e. Dollhouse, Gunn in AtS, Xander in Halloween) where knowledge is transferable through magic or science. Or hey, how about The Pretender having instant abilities once he studies a subject? That happens without the added ampage of magic. Magic changes the ballgame.

See, you mentioning the thing from "Smashed" is funny, because I have always felt that that was the first truly terrifying thing Willow had done magically. I talked about it at the time with my friends when we were watching the show. Here was Willow not knowing something, not knowing how to learn the thing, but so powerful that she can simply command the knowledge to present itself to her. That's pretty huge. That's rather like being able to say a word and sculpt David when you've never seen marble and don't even know what a chisel is.

So here we're just at a fundamental disagreement about measuring what is and isn't "powerful", magically.


Neither. Both are a bit insulting to say about Satsu, though. Why would she immediately be over Buffy considering she really loved her? Why would her finally walking away and tossing the lipgloss in the trash mean she's in a snit? I think she's finally worked herself to a place where she's no longer hoping against hope that Buffy will love her. Now she's trying to move on, but that doesn't mean her feelings have disappeared. It takes a while to get over someone, the key here is that she's actually trying to move on now. Before she was stuck pining for Buffy.

Insulting? What's wrong with "snit"? If you put that word into urban dictionary, you get back that panel of Satsu throwing away her lip gloss. It's a gender-neutral term, as every male character from Andrew to Giles has gotten in a snit. What's the beef? What I mean is, does throwing that lipgloss away mean she's resolved to get past the Buffy thing, or is she just having a thing?

Emmie
07-02-09, 01:36 AM
Insulting? What's wrong with "snit"? If you put that word into urban dictionary, you get back that panel of Satsu throwing away her lip gloss. It's a gender-neutral term, as every male character from Andrew to Giles has gotten in a snit. What's the beef? What I mean is, does throwing that lipgloss away mean she's resolved to get past the Buffy thing, or is she just having a thing?

Well you gave two options. Either she's already over Buffy just because she finally decided to be (which undercuts the validity of her feelings - who gets over being in true love just because they want to?) or she's in a snit - "a state of agitation or irritation" which is often used to call out people who are acting irrationally about something. I rather see Satsu deciding to stop pining over Buffy and starting to live her life and having fun again. Which I see as the opposite of a snit. And I see Satsu throwing away the lip gloss as healthy behavior - i.e. not a snit.

Stackhouse
07-02-09, 03:11 AM
Breaking out of lurkerdom to pose a question about the subs - not about the hows and whys of teenage girls piloting them, but about their country of origin.

Satsu identifies the submarine as Korean in origin, but doesn't specify whether it's North or South Korean. Given the general world temperature toward North Korea, it's an important question. If it's North Korean in origin, it's risky and stupid for Satsu to have it in her possession - the Slayers have enough public relations problems. Being caught in it would be a nightmare, and pure gold for Twilight (and Harmony). Equally, being caught in a South Korean sub is also bad, because South Korea would have noted the sub as missing, and finding it in the Slayers' possession would be another public relations disaster. As South Korea has one of the largest submarine fleets in the world, it just might be one of theirs.

Now, on the flip side, why Satsu doesn't hand it over with lots of pomp and circumstance to South Korea boggles me. She's got a golden opportunity to score points for the Slayer world at large by showing them as defenders of the free world and allies of humans. Instead, she's using it for a joyride car to tool around in the Pacific?

I'm thinking Satsu's promotion wasn't gained through virtue of intelligence.

vampmogs
07-02-09, 03:24 AM
The rocket launcher is a good one, because that was completely ludicrous whilst still having 'Innocence' be one of the top best episodes in the show's history. There's just no way that it's that easy to steal a rocket launcher in a military base. If you can simply cut through some barb wire in the fence and just walk straight up to the armoury, there's a serious problem in believability there.. at least I'd hope so :s

As far as Willow’s magic goes- I still think it’s more simplistic and less morally questionable to have her or the Wiccan’s simply command the sub mystically rather than put knowledge in the slayer’s head. As Emmie mentions we saw her do this with the pay phone in ‘Spiral’ and we saw her do this with her laptop in ‘Smashed.’

But ya know, I actually don’t mind Allie’s magic-free explanation at all. I thought his “it’s not just martial arts training ya know” line was pretty interesting when you take into account he’s absolutely right. They’ve been trained in how to jump out of helicopters, how to operate helicopters, how to use all these fancy new weapons they have ect. Why not to be able to mobilise a submarine ect? It fits nicely into Buffy building this very military operation which kind of does contradict the low-keyness of what the slayer is meant to represent and what she’s always believed in. It serves her arc more than ruins it I’d say. Isn't this all kind of about how the slayer's are loosing their way and how they don't represent what they are meant to anymore?

And nope I really don't buy the whole "maybe I can forgive what happened in the show because they had actors "selling it to me" but not in the comics" debate, because really in other words you're just saying- "I have double standards to season eight and hold it more responsible than I would any other season of the show." Which is both unfair and not really worth the time IMO.

The Satsu-story is pretty interesting, I've seen quite a few fans even think that she was channeling season three Faith a bit here which is worth thinking about. I never really saw her as being corrupt like Buffy but the sub is a massive PR disaster as you say, and a really wreckless decision on her part. You're right, it does play completely into Twilight/Harmony's hands. But at the same time, it's nothing something we haven't seen Buffy do before, as shown with the rocket launcher. Steal a weapon, fire it in a very public place, keep said weapon. It's basically just following that pattern on a slightly bigger scale- the problem now is though that the slayers have become global which makes everything they do more risky.

Stackhouse
07-02-09, 05:20 AM
The problem is with the rocket-launcher comparison, if the military caught up with Buffy, it would only fall on one person's head. (Well, possibly Xander as well) If anyone sees the Slayers in possession of that submarine, it's going to clearly put them in the 'Axis of Evil', since Buffy refuses to address the subject publicly to the rest of the world.

With Buffy telling Satsu to keep holding onto the sub, however, it's the kind of worldview that keeps dragging them all down. Buffy still operates as if she's in Sunnydale, accountable only to herself and her friends. She can't square with the fact that everything she does now has worldwide consequences (minus apocalyptic events). And it's that that's going to bring her and mini-Buffy (Satsu) down.

I don't know that Satsu is corrupt, but she's a reckless teenager who probably shouldn't have been handed the responsibility of a base, if she couldn't puzzle this one out. Performance review? I didn't see much of one there.

vampmogs
07-02-09, 05:38 AM
Agreed- except for the "reckless teenager" part. Buffy was a teenager in the first four seasons of Btvs and she subverted that popular opinion that they're not good for anything. She was incredibly mature and selfless and saved the world "a lot." I don't think it's fair to believe Satsu can't function as squad leader because of her age.

Yay! :2party:

Finally got my hands on this issue ‘Swell’ and I really enjoyed it! :)

I think Kennedy/Satsu have a really great chemistry, they’re both sassy enough that they really play well off one another and the relationship felt like it had already been earned and established even though as fans we were only seeing their interaction for the first time. I think that’s a real strength of the issue, when reading the pages you forget that you’ve never seen these to characters share “screen time” before because they way in which they interact makes you feel like you have. I particularly love Kennedy’s interest in helping Satsu overcome her feelings for Buffy, it shows a positive side to Kennedy that she cares about somebody else’s feelings in such a manner, and it’s very interesting that she can relate to Satsu.

The sexist subtext going on with the vampire plush dolls didn’t bother me nearly as much as I expected it would after hearing other people’s complaints about it’s inclusion in this issue. I’m with everyone else in having my fill of women empowerment themes being shoved down my throat after the very preachy season seven and I was very relieved when General Voll put a stop to it in Buffy’s little feminist rant in ‘The Long Way Home.’ When I first read her talking about females and power and how they can’t stand the words in the same sentence I smacked my forehead and went “oh god not again” so I was very happy with Twilight pointed out that it’s not the issue here and it’s not only men who dislike the slayers. This issue did raise all those themes up again in a rather blunt way- I agree that some of the subtext here was less than subtle, but it didn’t have me worried. It seems very much like it will be isolated to this issue and it’s just exploring one of the ways you can hate on slayers, I don’t think it’s going to be a big part of Twilight’s agenda. I actually think it’s rather neat that they’re exploring all the different viewpoints and different reasons why people aren’t fans of the slayers- and sexism and fear of female empowerment will be that reason for some, it’s just important they don’t make it the only reason.

Speaking of the plush dolls- I agree that it was a very good villain to have given the vampire-friendly climate the slayers are faced with right now. The idea behind it is a great one, it’s turning vampires into cuddly comfort toys, what better a way to advertise them? And the idea behind it is brilliant- they can brainwash you, which is a commentary on what Twilight and Harmony are doing to the public through the media right now. It’s also somewhat confirmed that Twilight is very much connected to Harmony’s mission as he’s responsible for the vampire toys, it seems too much of a coincidence for Harmony not to be under his employ. And how else would she know about the slayers vs the plush toys if she hadn't been informed by Twilight?

I also thought the guys who were delivering the toys were pretty creepy? Old and wrinkly, clearly demonic and shatter into dust when attacked? Very interesting demons I thought. They reminded me of what happened to that poor man in Ats when he was infected by the demons from Cortoth and was so dehydrated he shattered into dust.

I liked Satsu in this issue but she’s most certainly sporting a more cynical attitude, and seems to be using her duties as an outlet. “Kicking ass is comfort food” remember. It was a new side to her that we hadn’t seen much of, she seemed to really enjoy using violence as an outlet for all her pent up problems regarding Buffy. I also loved the line about how she “destroyed her parents with her gayness” that’s a great bit of insight into her character that I really wasn’t expecting. It actually hasn’t been explored in Btvs before either- Willow’s parents were proud of her as if she was making some political statement according to ‘The Killer In Me.’ To me it appears as if Satsu is almost a little bitter about her sexuality- Buffy can only give her, her body instead of her heart, it put an end to her relationship with her parents (and she obviously cared about them as she still kept the kimono) and she feels like she’s treat differently when Buffy sends “the other lesbian” to evaluate her. It’s as if she feels like she’s defined by her sexuality somewhat.

As far as the helicopter and the submarine? Who knows, when I finally had the opportunity to read this issue I felt the whole thing was blown way out of proposition and was expecting more. Perhaps it’s just that I was prepared for it before reading the issue but it just didn’t seem like a big deal for me? There was no feeling of “yeah right” when I read it, to be honest I barley even noticed it. I actually thought the submarine moment was a really great one, I love Satsu and Kennedy working together on the boat, it just had a very triumphant vibe for me which outshone the realism of wether or not the girls could operate the sub. But it actually does add new layers to Satsu being very vague about the “Korean incident.” Why was she vague? Did she know she did something wrong? Is she not operating her squad right? Deep down does she know she hasn’t helped the slayer’s in the eyes of the public by possibly having a run in with the Korean Government even if it was to stop a nest of vamps operating the sub? All interesting questions worth chewing on.

Only a brief Scooby appearance in this episode but I really didn’t mind- Satsu needs some more screen time devoted to her and I’m glad we got it, and it was refreshing to see Kennedy out of her typical girlfriend role for Willow and being her own person. The Buffy stuff was very interesting and scary in my opinion, I just think she’s going about it all wrong. Going black opts and subterranean makes them appear dodgy and shady and makes them seem more like villains than the vampires who are out in the light being completely (or so they lead the public to believe) transparent about their existence and activities. Buffy’s plan actually reminds me a little of the vampires in ‘Who Are You’ who Adam comments on, they hide from the humans, and that’s what Buffy is now suggesting the slayers do. I’m not loving it.

What’s even more kinda frightening is that Xander’s standing right beside her, agreeing with this course of action. He’s her closest confidant and the one she shares everything with, but I think he deserves some flak as well- not just Buffy. I don’t think he’s as focused as Buffy on the bigger picture, he clearly cares about Dawn’s situation a lot more than she does and he feels the human connection Buffy misses in ‘A Beautiful Sunset.’ But he’s aiding her in some of her morally dubious decision making- he finds the bank robbery “incredibly sexy” and doesn’t understand why Willow’s tiffed about it, and he’s standing by ideally whilst Buffy takes the complete wrong approach regarding this newest Twilight situation. I think he’s somewhat become a little clouded along with Buffy as he’s operating this slayer squad. I could actually see a scenerio further down the line this season when Buffy comes at odds with Willow in regards to how she's handling things and Xander takes Buffy's side over Willow.

Overall a really great issue, I thoroughly enjoyed it. :)

Emmie
07-02-09, 06:12 AM
Mogs, the guys who were delivering the Vampy Cats weren't demonic. They were dried up husks of human beings that had Vampy Cats inside them sucking away their life force. That's why when they first see these guys, Kennedy snarks at Satsu that she's lucky to not have one inside her anymore.

Stackhouse
07-02-09, 06:12 AM
Age notwithstanding, Buffy has essentially made Satsu a world leader in Japan, for whatever reasons she had. Satsu may be a teenager, but she's got to start acting like an adult and report in things that could erupt into international incidents. I don't mean 'teenager' in the sense that she's "not good for anything," as you put it. I mean she's a person with only the most recent grip on maturity and probably not someone with a great understanding of how the world works, much less how to run it.

vampmogs
07-02-09, 06:21 AM
Mogs, the guys who were delivering the Vampy Cats weren't demonic. They were dried up husks of human beings that had Vampy Cats inside them sucking away their life force. That's why when they first see these guys, Kennedy snarks at Satsu that she's lucky to not have one inside her anymore.

Oh, I must have missed that :s Silly me! Oh well, that reminds me of what happened in Ats s3 even before! :lol:


Age notwithstanding, Buffy has essentially made Satsu a world leader in Japan, for whatever reasons she had. Satsu may be a teenager, but she's got to start acting like an adult and report in things that could erupt into international incidents. I don't mean 'teenager' in the sense that she's "not good for anything," as you put it. I mean she's a person with only the most recent grip on maturity and probably not someone with a great understanding of how the world works, much less how to run it.

What I was debating is that being a teenager has nothing to do with why Satsu failed to communicate effectively with Buffy, I just see that as a non issue. IMO she failed to communicate the Korean incident well because of what has happened between her and Buffy, which really is as much Buffy's fault as it is Satsu’s. Sleeping with a subordinate causes all kind of drama, and this is one of them, it effects their work when it shouldn't. Buffy should have known better, so some of the blame for that miscommunication has to fall on her hands. I think wether Satsu was a teen or in her twenties would make it rather irrelevant- I think she’d more or less act in the same manner as she does here.

Though in regards to Satsu and her responsibilities in Tokyo- I actually think she's pretty equipped for the job. In 'A Beautiful Sunset' Buffy states that she could "run this screw someday" and not only was she part of Buffy's "Alpha Team" but she was the one Buffy chose to go through the portal with her in 'The Long Way Home' to rescue Willow. The impression I got is that Satsu appears to be the most skilled slayer of the bunch at Buffy's Scotland squad at least, to the point Buffy feels she could be her successor. I don’t think she was given the role simply because of what happened intimately between them, it seemed to be where they were heading anyway.

sueworld
07-02-09, 09:39 AM
And nope I really don't buy the whole "maybe I can forgive what happened in the show because they had actors "selling it to me" but not in the comics" debate, because really in other words you're just saying- "I have double standards to season eight and hold it more responsible than I would any other season of the show." Which is both unfair and not really worth the time IMO.

Not it just means that some appreciate the weaknesses and the strengths of both mediums.

vampmogs
07-02-09, 11:06 AM
Not it just means that some appreciate the weaknesses and the strengths of both mediums.

You can try and paint it as something else all you like, but I'm never going to agree. What you're saying is that if another season does something it's ok but if season eight does exactly the same thing it's not. That's double standards.

That's all I'm saying on the matter, I'm sick of having the same arguments about this.

sueworld
07-02-09, 11:33 AM
I also agree with King that it's not quite the same thing. To nick and operate something as complicated as a sub is a lot different to just stealing one piece of equipment and using it.

That whole idea I found too silly for words. Sorry.

blue_peroxide
07-02-09, 02:05 PM
*sighs* I really didn't like the issue. It was worst than them all. I guess. Or maybe there was something even worse and I've just blocked it in my mind. The first panels (that were on the preview) are the best of this issue. And I didn't even like that so much! (All that Satsu-Buffy thing is wearing me off actually. All right, this panel was almost okay but some previous things about the topic (like Kennedy telling Buffy to keep away from Willow, were a bit over the top. Or I don't know). I mean, I don't have a problem that Buffy slept with Satsu (although I do tend to think she still kinda used her), something about how all this is presented/handled irks me...
Anyhow, the things that I didn't get or like in the issue have been mentioned allready. Why did Satsu change into Submissive Woman when possessed by Vampy Cat? Why were the vampy cats so misogynistic? (And lame.)
And of course, what's with the submarines and stuff? I'd really like to have those budget restraints back.
Also, I don't get what's the problem (is it the fact that the medium is comic book or something else?) but these stories seem to be so... simplistic. Like the Buffy-Satsu thing. In first panels she's all "But I really love cinnamon" and in the last we see her understanding there's no hope and tossing away that cinnamon lipstick. I don't know, maybe in TV-format there was more room to play with subtleties and here in the comic everything has to be so spelled out, so ... graphic? (pun unintended).
I don't know, I think I'm blabbering, have to stop.

vampmogs
07-02-09, 02:11 PM
I don't know, maybe in TV-format there was more room to play with subtleties and here in the comic everything has to be so spelled out, so ... graphic? (pun unintended).

Really? I don't think season eight has been anywhere near as literal and unsubtle as the magic is crack "metaphor" with the whole "to witches candles are like bongs" :rolleyes: of season six or the "I hate women" themed Caleb of "girl power!" season seven.

I've actually heard many people feel it hasn't been clear enough about it's themes with others arguing it's just returned to a more subtle format that takes some getting used to again after the last two televised seasons.

Granted, ‘Swell’ wasn’t very subtle with the Vampcat’s language, but overall I thought season eight had been pretty low key in many of it’s themes, metaphors and character parallels.

sueworld
07-02-09, 02:30 PM
*sighs* I really didn't like the issue. It was worst than them all. I guess. Or maybe there was something even worse and I've just blocked it in my mind. The first panels (that were on the preview) are the best of this issue. And I didn't even like that so much! (All that Satsu-Buffy thing is wearing me off actually. All right, this panel was almost okay but some previous things about the topic (like Kennedy telling Buffy to keep away from Willow, were a bit over the top. Or I don't know). I mean, I don't have a problem that Buffy slept with Satsu (although I do tend to think she still kinda used her), something about how all this is presented/handled irks me...
Anyhow, the things that I didn't get or like in the issue have been mentioned allready. Why did Satsu change into Submissive Woman when possessed by Vampy Cat? Why were the vampy cats so misogynistic? (And lame.)
And of course, what's with the submarines and stuff? I'd really like to have those budget restraints back.
Also, I don't get what's the problem (is it the fact that the medium is comic book or something else?) but these stories seem to be so... simplistic. Like the Buffy-Satsu thing. In first panels she's all "But I really love cinnamon" and in the last we see her understanding there's no hope and tossing away that cinnamon lipstick. I don't know, maybe in TV-format there was more room to play with subtleties and here in the comic everything has to be so spelled out, so ... graphic? (pun unintended).
I don't know, I think I'm blabbering, have to stop.


Oh I totally agree with all of the above. I think though some of us who are mainly into the original TV show have to take a step back and realise that the comic format can be extremely limiting when it comes to delivering the more subtle elements of a story sometimes. Not always, but it appears to be the case in this anyway.

The Vampy Cats dialog were so OOT it made Caleb look like an amature in comparison. :lol:

blue_peroxide
07-02-09, 02:52 PM
The Vampy Cats dialog were so OOT it made Caleb look like an amature in comparison. :lol:
Oh yes. At least Caleb never said "Eat their #%&@ing ovaries" *cringes*



Really? I don't think season eight has been anywhere near as literal and unsubtle as the magic is crack "metaphor" with the whole "to witches candles are like bongs" :rolleyes: of season six or the "I hate women" themed Caleb of "girl power!" season seven.
I know! And I really don't like "magic is drugs" metaphor. Or some of the others. But still, actors could take the crappy metaphors and stuff and try to make something out of them. Now we don't have these little things that could make the difference. But I know it's not anybody's fault, that's the way with that medium and I have to take it or leave it (or take and then leave or, you know, read and complain constantly :lol:). So, yeah, it seems to me that in this comics thing the writers have to be very very careful because when they write anything that's less than excellent, it will show. Badly. Because there are no actors who can make up for the bad writing / stupid ideas.The comic books could never be compared to the TV-show because for instance it could never show adequately the suble changing of facial expression or inner struggle or something like that. It all has to be very very bland and straightforward. Like in "I like cinnamon lip gloss" -> "I toss the cinnamon lip gloss into the rubbish bin". So that the message will hit everybody. Not much room for shades and different colours, at least that's how I see it.
But it doesn't matter much anyway. And I'm glad that these comics exist, so that people have things to discuss and (dis)agree on.

vampmogs
07-02-09, 03:02 PM
The comic books could never be compared to the TV-show because for instance it could never show adequately the suble changing of facial expression or inner struggle or something like that.

Whilst I agree that the actors will always be far more superior to a drawing I actually really enjoy Jeanty for how he's able to show expression in his art. He's not a perfect artist, there's flaws in some of his drawings for sure, but for me he conveys what the characters are thinking and feeling amazingly well. I think I read somewhere that was one of the reasons Joss was a fan of his work as well? Sometimes I'm just amazed by how much emotion he can show through his illustration, two panels that I particularly love are Buffy's facial expression when Giles tells her he wants her not to be a part of this, that's just heartbreaking and from the same issue- when Giles mutters "burst" to kill Roden. That's Anthony Steward Head to a T, I was just in awe of it.

But Jeanty is a pretty hit and miss artist in the fandom, you either love him or hate him I’ve found. I’ve always preferred his art to that of ‘After the Fall’ though which many people love. The artwork in ‘After the Fall’ leaves me feeling cold, it’s not as intimate as Jeanty’s pieces. Season eight relies on close ups far more whereas in ‘After the Fall’ a lot of the faces seem smudged and inexpressive and rely more on action shots than character moments. Not all the time- but most of the time IMO.

It's as close as we're going to get to living breathing actors IMO. Chen does the likeness so very well but I kind of agree with Joss that her very 'still' images may have not worked in a comic where he wanted the story to "flow." That's why I think Jeanty's variant covers are always not as great as Chen's because his work is more fluid and when he's doing a still shot, it doesn't show off his talents very well.

sueworld
07-02-09, 03:10 PM
Personally I really dislike Jeanty's artwork, but Chens covers are thing of beauty. In one page she manages to convey more power and emotion then all of the interior art put together.

For example in that latest cover image released of Buffy at the console, well that did more to convey what Joss is trying to do with this story then anything else I've seen of late.

Wolfie Gilmore
07-02-09, 04:31 PM
I'm thinking Satsu's promotion wasn't gained through virtue of intelligence.

I'd blame the writers, not Satsu on that one - BtVS has never shown any engagement in real life world events, and I wouldn't credit them with making a specific reference to an international tension here with thought-through consequences. I think they just figured they could chuck in a reference to Korea as a splainy that didn't need to be gone into. I think they were just using Korea as a geopolitical mcGuffin really.

Re the subs - I think if they're being helmed by magic, it would've made a lot more sense just to say so. It's not one of those things that becomes more powerful by being unsaid (such as not spelling out a characters feelings and leaving us to infer, or having a murder off screen but making it clear through reactions that it happened). It's just bound to niggle many readers. I don't think leaving us to wonder how the subs work is good narrative form.

Some of the jigsaw puzzle storytelling is working really well, I think the sub question is just an example of where it's not worked as well.

Re facial expressions - I think it depends on the artist. Some artists can portray subtle emotions every bit as well as an actor. Perhaps the approach becomes more symbolic than figurative, sometimes, because you're seeing snapshots of expression, but it can still be very moving. Not all the art on the season's been great though.

sueworld
07-02-09, 04:38 PM
I agree. The thing I'm finding hard to deal with is on the evidence of how things have been glossed over up to now I don't trust the story all that much. Yes, in the show there were gaps in logic now and again, but I always felt that the ones they chose to leave open worked fairly well, but here in the comics not so much imo.

Once again I don't know If thats because that without the input of live actors the naked script stares up at you from the page more easily and thus you see the flaws more or what.

Stackhouse
08-02-09, 05:47 AM
Using Korea (North or South notwithstanding) as just a name and place still aggravates me to some extent. But it's not the point. If the subs had been from Andorra, it would still be an issue, insofar as the Slayers nicking large defensive weapons from governments in good standing with much of the world. And if Satsu can't get the sub's origin right, let alone not think of the ramifications for even having the sub...well then, yes I do question her intelligence to lead a quasi-military with command over a signficant portion of the world.

As to whether Satsu is exactly the best commander - well, Buffy's not coming from an unbiased viewpoint, is she? Since Satsu knocked boots with her commanding officer, someone else should have gotten that promotion - Satsu can't be the only Slayer showing promise. The Alphas have already commented on Buffy's favoritism of Satsu - and Buffy can't really afford to lose more support.

I probably should clarify - I don't expect the comic to resolve either issue. If they can't come up with backstory as to why Buffy's gone corrupt, this will likely fall by the wayside.

ThePoet's<3
08-02-09, 05:49 AM
I wasn't crazy about this issue either.

The very first part seemed like Joss *trying* to convince everyone that Buffy. Is. Not. Gay. I thought it showed Satsu in a horrible light - unless she is harboring some really bitter (stalker anyone?) feelings about Buffy using her for sex! What?! NO!:eek: Satsu's being set up for the next rug to be pulled from under Buffy's feet - that's all that is about.

The vampy cats? I agree the dialogue for them was horrible! I'm a little 50-50 on the storyline. I suppose it served the purpose of further pointing Slayer Inc. out as the "bad guys".

The submarine seemed to go with the above issue about Satsu. She's "showing out" because of her feelings towards Buffy and the lack thereof from the Slayer. She's still pushing Buffy's buttons - just waiting for Buffy to come over there and kick her a$$ in person.

vampmogs
08-02-09, 09:16 AM
I thought it showed Satsu in a horrible light - unless she is harboring some really bitter (stalker anyone?) feelings about Buffy using her for sex!

Huh? How was Satsu stalking Buffy from all the way in Tokyo? One thing the spell proved in 'The Long Way Home' is that Satsu was genuinely in love with Buffy and it wasn't just some crush, "it wouldn't have woken me up if it was." It'd be pretty unrealistic if she was already over Buffy after such a short time period? I don't really get how she can be criticised as stalking Buffy for going half way around the world to get away from her? People expect too much from her I think, Angel/Spike certainly didn't get over her in Ats s5 did they?

Koos
08-02-09, 04:49 PM
It was a rather weird episode. I did like it, but with many questionmarks. The biggest question that kept me puzzling is how is it possible that a fluffy cat that size can climb down you throat? And even if that's possbile than how is it possible that Satsu didn't wake up when it was doing so?

Then there's Satsu. She appears to have the leadership skill necessary to make her squat listen to her. Even when her decisions are questionable. (And they are!) Hell, even Kennedy ate out her hand at the end. Satsu is definitely different than the submisive, innocent Slayer from before. She's only not seeing, as others have said, the big picture. But, I wonder if Buffy does as well. Afterall, Buffy wants to keep the sub as well.
Satsu's also angry. And she had a lot of trouble letting go of Buffy. Quite a character-developement.

This issue gives a good insight in what the season is about. Buffy and her friends actions have worldwide consequences right now. They need a good PR strategy.

vampmogs
09-02-09, 02:19 AM
I'm not sure Satsu was ever actually a submissive person in season eight. What we saw is a girl who knows her place in the hierarchy of the slayer organisation, and she respects that place. If she's part of Buffy's "Alpha Team" then it's *Buffy's* team. So she does what Buffy says? I'm not sure I'd call that submissive anymore than I'd call a solider in the military submissive for following orders from his superior. It's just how their organisations function.

Now she's got her own squad she's been elevated to a status much like Buffy's and we're getting to see her personality come out a bit more- but I think that's all it really is. That and the fact that the moment Buffy slept with her, a professional relationship became a personal one as well- which results in the kind of conflict we had in 'Wolves At The Gate' when Satsu doubted Buffy's motives for not having in the field and thus decided not to follow her orders. Which is not at all like what I’d expect from Xander or Willow- they hardly call her “ma’am.”

I think the real questions here are wether or not it's appropriate for Buffy to have this hierarchal structure in the first place- and of course the implications of mixing business with pleasure with your "subordinates."

Speaking of- I was re-reading 'No Future For You' today and how Willow tells Renee off for addressing her as "Miss Rosenberg." As an outsider coming back into the fold Willow's clearly uncomfortable with some of Buffy's decisions (bank robbery ect) and with the tone of the organisation- she prefers a far more laid back and personal approach like the Scoobies always had. It's not to say Buffy doesn't either, there's clearly a hint of irritation when she says "everybody calls me ma'am these days' in 'The Long Way Home' but unlike Willow she doesn't put a stop to it, she lets it win over her. And I'm not entirely convinced that she wouldn't be slightly pissed if the slayers didn't call her ma'am. She's irritated by her position but at the same time wants the slayers to know there place. I think that’s an interesting contrast between Buffy/Willow and even Xander to an extent- he had to remind Renee to call him Xander and not “Mr Harris” in ‘The Long Way Home.’

Vampire in Rug
09-02-09, 09:21 AM
Read the issue today and didn't really care for it. Although Satsu was awesome, and hot.

Twilight seems to be getting more and more hypocritical. It seems he's against Slayers specificly more than other magical creatures. I mean, not only does he seem to have superpowers himself, but look at who he's rubbing shoulders with. He employed Roden (and by extention Gigi and two gargoyles), Warren, Amy (and her zombie army/ snake army). He has a couple of demons who seem to be in his close circle and now we've learnt that he created/recruited the Vampy Kitties and that four-armed slug demon. Seems the guy has double standards. I really hope we don't have another mysoginist villain on our hands. That's a cop out and it's getting pretty old.

vampmogs
09-02-09, 09:31 AM
I don't think Twilight's being a hypocrite in choosing to work with supernatural creatures. In regards to Roden/Gigi specifically;

LT. MOLTER: You’re not gonna be walking on air when you hear what I have to say. Our man on the inside confirm that Summer is still alive. Your goons failed.

TWILIGHT: Roden and Genevieve were not my minion… they were my targets.

LT. MOLTER: What are you talking about? This whole operation was about neutralizing two of your own soldiers?

TWILIGHT: No. it was about manipulating our enemies into waging this ugly war for us, a tactic crucial for bringing the age of magic to a close. By pitting Watcher against warlock and Slayer against Slayer, we have pushed even the ‘victors’ to remove themselves from the chessboard.

Twilight intentionally pitted Buffy/Faith/Giles against Roden/Gigi so they would wipe out each other. He's playing the supernatural people under his employ so they'll all be against each other; the same way he's pitting humans against slayers.

In regards to his own supernatural powers? I've always interpreted that as being a necessary evil for him to achieve his goals. It'd be pretty hard to wipe out magic and the slayers without some form of magical aid. I’m not even entirely sure if I believe he’s always hated magic. He hates the imbalance caused by the slayers and Willow’s spell, “one Slayer was all right, but *all* these girls… the world can’t contain them.” I think he thinks he must end magic to prevent that imbalance for continuing. My own personal interpretation is that he had no problem with magic or the slayers before that which rules out Caleb as a suspect in my opinion but makes Ethan one. He hated the imbalance created by the Initiative.

sueworld
09-02-09, 11:47 AM
But Ethan is a chaos worshiper though. I can't see that fitting in with Twilights profile so far.

vampmogs
09-02-09, 12:22 PM
But Ethan is a chaos worshiper though. I can't see that fitting in with Twilights profile so far.

But you could also say that about what happened in season four? As Ethan states to Giles, "and that's way beyond chaos mate." Ethan has his limits. Twilight feels the influx of slayers have crossed a line and Twilight wants to put a stop to that.

The only thing that makes me doubt Ethan is that he enjoys doing magic and Twilight wants to end that. But everything else points to him as being a suspect IMO, not wanting an imbalance in the world, directing Buffy to the military base where she’s forced into a confrontation between slayer/human and faced with General Voll who tells her "you're at war with the human race," being able to get into Buffy’s head so he’d know how to make her doubt her morals, being a white male with magical capabilities and even the snarky charm… The line, "I just hate to see you cry" just oozes Ethan IMO, it sounds exactly like something he could say to Buffy in the scenes they shared together as they traded jabs.

sueworld
09-02-09, 12:27 PM
Strangely enough It doesn't to me.

As you say why would a character who seen as an 'old school' dark mage want to destroy all magic?

vampmogs
09-02-09, 12:37 PM
As you say why would a character who seen as an 'old school' dark mage want to destroy all magic?

I'm sure there could be reasons for it. Twilight's already been depicted as a character who's POV changed as a result of the slayer spell, he says himself that one slayer was fine so we know this hatred of slayers wasn't ingrained into his character all along. Perhaps he doesn’t like the fact that Buffy all this magic right at her disposal (Willow) perhaps he’s grown resentful of magic during the time he was locked up by the US government? Perhaps sacrificing magic is a necessary price Ethan’s prepared to pay to end the slayers?

Wolfie Gilmore
09-02-09, 12:45 PM
Just a thought - Twilight wants to end the age of magic, but that doesn't mean he's not a magical creature himself. His own life or powers could be the last thing he plans to sacrifice, at the end of the war.

vampmogs
09-02-09, 01:08 PM
I was thinking the same thing before when Vampire In The Rug mentioned how he seems to have magical abilities. I guess it depends on how much Twilight believes in the cause? If you're right Wolfie than that makes him completely dangerous. It reminds me of that Wolfram and Hart guy in 'Conviction' how he tells Angel how he believes in evil and it makes him so much more dangerous than a morally confused Angel. If Twilight's willing to sacrifice himself for what he believes to be the greater good, there's not a chance in hell he's ever going to change his mind that what he's doing isn't completely justified.

Is it possible that Twilight's using some kind of technology rather than magic? It's doubtful, but possible?

KingofCretins
09-02-09, 01:10 PM
I think he's using magical items to get his powers. Take off the mask, the boots, the cape, he's just a guy. It would be a more reasonable compromise for him. Magic, demons -- they are means to an end.

Wolfie Gilmore
09-02-09, 02:04 PM
I guess it depends on how much Twilight believes in the cause? If you're right Wolfie than that makes him completely dangerous. It reminds me of that Wolfram and Hart guy in 'Conviction' how he tells Angel how he believes in evil and it makes him so much more dangerous than a morally confused Angel. If Twilight's willing to sacrifice himself for what he believes to be the greater good, there's not a chance in hell he's ever going to change his mind that what he's doing isn't completely justified.

[quote]Is it possible that Twilight's using some kind of technology rather than magic? It's doubtful, but possible?

Yes, possible – and technology and magic aren’t really all that different in the Buffyverse, in that they both allow people to do things that wouldn’t be possible in the real world (eg a 20 year old student building a completely lifelike robot... or a reanimated corpse doing scientific experiments). Though the “science” of the Buffyverse does have a different implication, and obviously it would be different from the point of view of someone who’s anti-magic.

I suspect it is magic though. But I can’t decide whether it’s his magic or borrowed magic. It depends on Twilight’s personality – if he is the type that’s willing to sacrifice himself, that’s fired by fears of what he might become as well as fears/hatred of the slayers and other magic users, then I can believe him as a magic user. But if he’s more self serving and doesn’t fear the enemy within, then I’d have to assume he was using borrowed power – as King suggests, magic boots etc (makes me think of seven league boots). More Green Lantern than Superman.


I think he's using magical items to get his powers. Take off the mask, the boots, the cape, he's just a guy. It would be a more reasonable compromise for him. Magic, demons -- they are means to an end.

I think that’s more likely, unless we get to see a more self-loathing part of him revealed (which, this being the Jossverse, I wouldn’t completely dismiss, especially if he's a souled creature/human somehow). I want to think that that’s why he’s wearing his mask. Not to hide his (familiar) identity from the readers, but because it’s a source of power. (Yes I’m not giving up hope on the idea that he’s an unknown unknown… at least to us.)

stormwreath
09-02-09, 02:58 PM
It reminds me of that Wolfram and Hart guy in 'Conviction' how he tells Angel how he believes in evil and it makes him so much more dangerous than a morally confused Angel.Seems to be a trope Joss is fond of playing with these days:

"I believe in something that is greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin. ... I'm not going to live there. How could you think - there's no place for me there, any more than there is for you, Malcolm. I'm a monster. What I do is evil, I've no illusions about that. But it must be done."
- the Operative, 'Serenity'

Can't you just imagine Twilight saying that?

jj.bsb
09-02-09, 05:22 PM
I barely remember one issue of the old Buffy comics non-canon series where some little toys became the hit in Sunnydale and they became alive to still belongs of the citizens.

Why Willow/Satsu’s magics should use some spell to control a submarine, a very hard thing to maintain, dock and that will be searched for many countries, use it against a civilian boat, which will bring international huge problems, while they could just use magic to melt the kittens?

And about the graphic style - Anyone knows who draw this desktop: http://www.darkhorse.com/Features/Desktops/37/Buffy-the-Vampire-Slayer ?
To me this should be perfect for the “After These Messages…”. Except the strange hands…



I think he's using magical items to get his powers. Take off the mask, the boots, the cape, he's just a guy. It would be a more reasonable compromise for him. Magic, demons -- they are means to an end.

Then I bet in The Greatest American Hero (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081871/) . With a handbook, of course.

KingofCretins
09-02-09, 06:58 PM
The wallpaper is a cover done by either Jim Lee or J. Scott Campbell. I think it's Campbell. He was actually rejected by Sarah when Dark Horse wanted him to pencil the old Buffy comic.

"The Greatest American Hero" is a funny parallel, but yeah :)

Actually, I think Twilight is loosely based on a Brian K. Vaughan character called "The Hood". The Hood uses a magic cloak and boots (sound familiar) to "walk on air" (sound familiar) and has other powers, such as turning invisible when holding his breath, and energy or lightning from his hands. He stole his stuff from a "Nisanti" demon -- the word Nisanti appears in the teleportation spell from the book Roden used in "No Future For You".

OkinawanSteel
09-02-09, 07:45 PM
He stole his stuff from a "Nisanti" demon -- the word Nisanti appears in the teleportation spell from the book Roden used in "No Future For You".

It's not just mentioned in the spell, Faith actually mentions a Nisanti demon when she asks Giles what the target is, IIRC. I thought it was just BKV throwing out a reference to his own work, but there could be something more to it (hint at similar or shared mythology or something?)

Charles
10-02-09, 11:43 PM
The wallpaper is a cover done by either Jim Lee or J. Scott Campbell. I think it's Campbell. He was actually rejected by Sarah when Dark Horse wanted him to pencil the old Buffy comic.

"The Greatest American Hero" is a funny parallel, but yeah :)

Actually, I think Twilight is loosely based on a Brian K. Vaughan character called "The Hood". The Hood uses a magic cloak and boots (sound familiar) to "walk on air" (sound familiar) and has other powers, such as turning invisible when holding his breath, and energy or lightning from his hands. He stole his stuff from a "Nisanti" demon -- the word Nisanti appears in the teleportation spell from the book Roden used in "No Future For You".

I'm pretty sure that's Campbell as it looks like his old Gen13.

The main plot.....zzzzz

Subplot more interesting depending of if you think Xander still has a role to play this year. He's either helping Twilight out directly or indirectly. And the writers have an out to either make him Twilight's help knowingly or unknowingly or make him Twilight directly. That would explain why he's siding with her.