PDA

View Full Version : Is Buffy/Satsu similar to Buffy/Parker and Buffy/Spike?



Sosa lola
17-01-09, 01:58 PM
In order not to ruin Enisy's wonderful thread Retroactive Effects (http://www.buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5108), I'm gonna bring the discussion here:

I think Buffy/Satsu is no where near Buffy/Parker:

1- Parker lied to get a girl into the sack, Buffy was being honest from the beginning.

2- Parker ignores the girls after he sleeps with them, Buffy talked about their sex with Satsu and never ignored her.

3- Parker didn't respect the girls he slept with, Buffy respects Satsu.

Buffy/Satsu and Buffy/Spike have the similarity of Buffy not being in love with them when she slept with them. Buffy sought Satsu for connection because she was lonely and under a lot of pressure, kinda the same as why she slept with Spike.

The differences are:

1- Buffy respected Satsu, but she didn't respect Spike (I'm talking about S6 here)

2- Buffy cared about Satsu's feelings, she didn't care about Spike's.

3- There's gentleness and civility between Buffy and Satsu that wasn't there with Buffy and Spike, which had been about violence and wild sex.

4- Buffy and Satsu went out of the sexual experience with smiles and contentment while Spike and Buffy got out of it with more pain and self-loathing.

5- Buffy had been clear about her intentions to both Satsu and Spike, the difference lies in Satsu and Spike. Satsu believed Buffy and accepted, Spike didn't believe Buffy and thought there's more to it than just sex.

Enisy
17-01-09, 02:08 PM
I agree with your points, but I think most of the credit for the positive outcome goes to Satsu for being so nice and understanding, as opposed to Season 6 Spike. Would anyone hold it against Satsu if she had reacted the way Spike had to Buffy ("In that case, why won't you sleep with me again?"), or Buffy had to Angel ("It is a big deal!"), or to Parker ("You had fun? Was that all it was? ... It seemed like you liked me"), and would people still be defending Buffy so vehemently if that had been the case? (Especially considering that Buffy hadn't made it clear to Satsu pre-coitus that it wouldn't go any further than that, if Satsu's disappointed and ashamed reaction is anything to go by. Especially especially considering that Buffy is Satsu's superior, so the power balance is all off.)

And if we look at Buffy's reasoning as to why she was "using" Spike in Season 6, it all applies to Satsu just the same:

Tara: Do you love him? It's okay if you do. He's done a lot of good, and he does love you. And Buffy... it's okay if you don't. You're going through a really hard time, and you're...
Buffy: What? Using him? What's okay about that?!
Tara: It's not that simple.
Buffy: It is! It's wrong!

Sosa lola
17-01-09, 02:27 PM
and would people still be defending Buffy so vehemently if that had been the case?

But it isn't. And that's the point. Buffy had been honest with Satsu, she'd told her she wasn't a lesbian and that there would be no commitment. It was just two people connecting with each other sexually. And Satsu still slept with her.


(Especially considering that Buffy hadn't made it clear to Satsu pre-coitus that it wouldn't go any further than that, if Satsu's disappointed and ashamed reaction is anything to go by.

I don't really remember this part. I'll have to re-read the issue again.


Especially especially considering that Buffy is Satsu's superior, so the power balance is all off.

I think this is where Buffy went wrong. I don't think she considered her position when she decided to sleep with Satsu, she was being naïve (and maybe desperate) when she considered sleeping with her. For all we know, Satsu would've probably slept with her because this is what the boss wants, but then I remember Buffy's gentle and friendly approach to Satsu, acting like she's her equal instead of her superior... it's the reason why Satsu was taken aback when Buffy reverted to her general mood in #13. She had been Satsu's equal and friend in bed, but when it's business, she's back to being boss, she took Satsu by surprise.



And if we look at Buffy's reasoning as to why she was "using" Spike in Season 6, it all applies to Satsu just the same:

Tara: Do you love him? It's okay if you do. He's done a lot of good, and he does love you. And Buffy... it's okay if you don't. You're going through a really hard time, and you're...
Buffy: What? Using him? What's okay about that?!
Tara: It's not that simple.
Buffy: It is! It's wrong!

I did say that Buffy went to Spike and Satsu for the same reason: connection, and to have a moment of freedom from all the pressure on her shoulders (especially since it's far more huge in S8 than S6)

Enisy
17-01-09, 02:38 PM
I don't really remember this part. I'll have to re-read the issue again.

Buffy: (looking uncertain) But I'm not sure it goes any further than that.
Satsu: (looking disappointed) I get it.
Buffy: You sure?
Satsu: Yeah. We'll leave it at "We had a wonderful night." (holding her sheet to her chest and heading to the door) I should probably get going...

I've seen many people argue that "there was [definitely] some two-way advantage going on there", as Willow put it, but they forget that that was the case for Spike/Buffy, too: on one hand, Buffy was taking advantage of Spike's feelings to get her "fix", on the other hand, Spike was taking advantage of Buffy's depression to get intimate with her. But the writers didn't use that excuse back then; they told it like it was: " what? Using him? What's [i]okay about that?"

Nina
17-01-09, 03:11 PM
I'm not sure if you can compare it to Spike/Buffy or Buffy/Parker. But I can't say that I think that it was a good thing. Especially because of Satsu's feelings.

We know that it's not just a crush, Satsu gave Buffy a kiss of true love. How fair is it to ask a person who loves you so much, to have a one-night stand? Especially when you know that you will never feel the same. Even when you are honest about it, it doesn't sound fair to me.

Sleeping with one of your soldiers who is deeply in love with you because you are horny, how smart is that? Why couldn't she have sex with a random person outside the organisation? A person who doesn't expect more than Buffy does?

Sosa lola
17-01-09, 03:32 PM
Buffy: (looking uncertain) But I'm not sure it goes any further than that.
Satsu: (looking disappointed) I get it.
Buffy: You sure?
Satsu: Yeah. We'll leave it at "We had a wonderful night." (holding her sheet to her chest and heading to the door) I should probably get going...

I've seen many people argue that "there was [definitely] some two-way advantage going on there", as Willow put it, but they forget that that was the case for Spike/Buffy, too: on one hand, Buffy was taking advantage of Spike's feelings to get her "fix", on the other hand, Spike was taking advantage of Buffy's depression to get intimate with her. But the writers didn't use that excuse back then; they told it like it was: " what? Using him? What's [i]okay about that?"

Good point :) I really wish we got to see how Buffy and Satsu ended in bed.


We know that it's not just a crush, Satsu gave Buffy a kiss of true love. How fair is it to ask a person who loves you so much, to have a one-night stand? Especially when you know that you will never feel the same. Even when you are honest about it, it doesn't sound fair to me.

You have a point, but I don't think it's about random sex for Buffy. She wanted to feel loved, and Satsu was giving her that. See Buffy's coversation with Xander before she had sex with Satsu: Buffy is upset she doesn't feel connected to her slayers, and then there's this girl who's in love with her, one that Buffy respects and likes. I think it's more than Buffy being horny, it's about connection and love.

Nina
17-01-09, 03:52 PM
You have a point, but I don't think it's about random sex for Buffy. She wanted to feel loved, and Satsu was giving her that. See Buffy's coversation with Xander before she had sex with Satsu: Buffy is upset she doesn't feel connected to her slayers, and then there's this girl who's in love with her, one that Buffy respects and likes. I think it's more than Buffy being horny, it's about connection and love.

And there you've a point.

But I still think that it wasn't fair to do this to Satsu. It's sad that Buffy feels this way and I hope that she will find a way to snap out of it. But using a girl who loves you so much isn't right. And yes she was being honest, but that doesn't fix everything (even if it was Satsu who suggested it -something we don't know, but it could be possible-). It was understandable that it happened but not okay. At least, that's my opinion.

cheryl4ba
17-01-09, 04:04 PM
My initial reaction to B/S in the comic was that it was in fact, more of the same. So yeah, I guess I do feel that it's on the same line as B/S from season 6.

Buffy in both examples feels disconnected and uses sex to connect. Sex with a parnter who has more feelings for her than she does them. I guess that might happen everyday in real world, I just didn't expect Buffy to rewind and repeat the mistake.

I would like to see Buffy in a sexual relationship next time because she knows exactly who she is and what she wants. A whole Buffy. IF she then see's a someone that tickles her fancy, sure, have at it but just to feel? Not loving that so much. Sounds like the depressed disconnected Buffy from season 6, imo.

Sosa lola
17-01-09, 05:01 PM
And there you've a point.

But I still think that it wasn't fair to do this to Satsu. It's sad that Buffy feels this way and I hope that she will find a way to snap out of it. But using a girl who loves you so much isn't right. And yes she was being honest, but that doesn't fix everything (even if it was Satsu who suggested it -something we don't know, but it could be possible-). It was understandable that it happened but not okay. At least, that's my opinion.

I think Buffy was too weak to think, but you're right. She should have considered Satsu's feelings more. Satsu would probably be as weak as Buffy and accept in hopes that Buffy would change her mind and suddenly become gay.

If I were in Buffy's place, I don't think I'd have sex with Satsu. No matter how lonely and disconnected I am, but then I'm not as addicted to sex as Buffy :lol: I don't need sex to feel loved and connected... heck I can go years without having sex and I'll be fine. But I don't think it's the same for Buffy, she needs the naked loving to feel warm and happy.

Emmie
17-01-09, 05:30 PM
Anyone else get the feeling that Satsu initiated the hook-up? Remember how Buffy says Satsu did more stuff than her and that Buffy just lay back a bit passively and "let [her]"?

Now there's a big difference between Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Satsu. Buffy/Spike was about Buffy taking a hold of Spike and making that happen during Smashed - Buffy's in complete control of their first sexual encounter. Buffy/Satsu was about Buffy uncertainly letting Satsu take control (make love to her? sex her up? do the naughty?).

Also consider the line, "This isn't real but I just want to feel." Buffy doesn't discount Satsu's feelings or put her down. I think it's important to differentiate that comparing Spuffy to Buffy/Satsu carries the connotation of the former's destructive elements. Which isn't true for Buffy/Satsu.

KingofCretins
17-01-09, 05:34 PM
Unequivocal "no" on Satsu initiating. An issue earlier, Satsu was worried she'd get kicked out just for having her feelings, she got no indication from Buffy that she was available to it, and she's going to initiate that? Not a bit. The fact that Buffy "let her" do things is pretty clearly about what they did *in* bed, not how they got there. Satsu is pretty passive about everything and doesn't assert herself around Buffy until *after* they slept together. She didn't start that.

Emmie
17-01-09, 05:38 PM
Unequivocal "no" on Satsu initiating. An issue earlier, Satsu was worried she'd get kicked out just for having her feelings, she got no indication from Buffy that she was available to it, and she's going to initiate that? Not a bit. The fact that Buffy "let her" do things is pretty clearly about what they did *in* bed, not how they got there. Satsu is pretty passive about everything and doesn't assert herself around Buffy until *after* they slept together. She didn't start that.

So you think Buffy leaned in for a kiss then did nothing after that point? I can easily see Satsu accidentally brushing shoulders with Buffy or maybe they fall on each other during a spar session and she becomes overcome and leans in for a kiss.

KingofCretins
17-01-09, 05:42 PM
Buffy can start them kissing and with the bedroom eyes, it still doesn't change the fact that Satsu is the one who knows what she wants to do with another woman in bed. I really don't see it as a "I Will Remember You", "we merely touched and the passion took over" thing. The only way they get into bed is because Buffy decides "ah, what the hell".

Emmie
17-01-09, 05:48 PM
Not saying Buffy didn't go 'ah what the hell', but that Satsu could have just as easily initiated the kiss off a look or some kind of touch that grew into more. Who knows?

I guess that's why we weren't shown who initiated the interaction - the point was that they both made the decision to be together.

ETA: Also, Satsu was initially worried Buffy would kick her out but that was immediately after Buffy kicked her across the graveyard and *before* Buffy went on and on about how hot and cool Satsu was and how flattered Buffy was by her interest. Plus they later had the intimate handholding at the end of ABS, so I think that might have emboldened Satsu a bit.

KingofCretins
17-01-09, 05:58 PM
I just don't see it. Satsu is just far too passive about her feelings and fearful of rejection and deferential to Buffy's authority to start that. Prior to that, there is not one part of their relationship that Buffy doesn't have complete control over, professionally, personally, any of it. There's just too much there to figure that Satsu suddenly decided she could make a move. Even in "A Beautiful Sunset", it was 99% red light and 1% greenlight -- Buffy conceding that Satsu is hot.

hayes62
17-01-09, 06:20 PM
I think Satsu certainly felt she started things in their first encounter if for nothing else because of her tacit acceptance of Willow's comment. In their second encounter she also showed herself perfectly capable of initiating things. I also think that when comparing Buffy/Satsu and Buffy/Spike it's also significant that that was only their second time. I don't think Buffy was using Spike the first time they had sex. It was an in the moment thing that no-one was exactly 'thinking' through. It became using when she went back for more. She didn't do that with Satsu.

Emmie
17-01-09, 06:38 PM
Wow, that's a great point that I agree with, Hayes.

Is it using if you're caught up in the moment? If your judgment is taking a backseat to your emotions?

I think it's clear that Buffy was trying to keep Satsu at a distance before and after they slept together because she *didn't* want to use Satsu. So a slip-up, perhaps, something that happened based on passion.

As for emotions and passion overriding judgment, the only comparison I can think of the whole legal argument. But I don't really think that translates well to this situation.

Nina
17-01-09, 06:44 PM
But it happend twice. One time can happen, but afterwards you think about it and when you think that you was wrong or unfair to the other, why would you do it again? And it wasn't Buffy who stopped with it, it was Satsu who stopped the 'relation' because she couldn't handle it.

cheryl4ba
17-01-09, 06:51 PM
Sex to connect is a desperation thing. So yeah, I can see Buffy initiating that, since she's the one who feels so disconnected. Xander is even telling her maybe she's not even supposed to connect.

Although empty sex isn't really a connection at all, Buffy feels safest when her emotions aren't involved.

Looking at the aftermath, she's still feeling insecure, asking if she did it right, or something like that. It's beyond sad that Buffy has transgressed back into her season 6 persona that something is wrong with her. She's surrounded by slayers and still feels pretty much alone, at this point. Maybe this disconnection is something Buffy is doing subconsciously because she believes that everyone that loves her meets some horrible fate. It's really quite sad for her. Buffy gets to physically connect without the emotional connection. I guess one of two is better than nothing, unless that one hurts someone else or makes her feel worse in the long run.

Emmie
17-01-09, 07:12 PM
But it happend twice. One time can happen, but afterwards you think about it and when you think that you was wrong or unfair to the other, why would you do it again? And it wasn't Buffy who stopped with it, it was Satsu who stopped the 'relation' because she couldn't handle it.


Satsu didn't stop it really. Buffy started avoiding Satsu and then Satsu realized it wasn't going to work. The second time was a goodbye and that *was* something Satsu initiated.

Nina
17-01-09, 07:27 PM
I know that it was Satsu who kind of initiated the second time. But I think that it was Buffy's duty to stop it because of Satsu's feelings. Which is my overal problem with the relation, Buffy doesn't seem to consider the feelings Satsu has for her. You can see it as Buffy being extremely nice and thoughtfull towards Satsu but it can also seen as hope for Satsu who is/was probably looking for that hope.

Why else would Satsu sleep with Buffy? Satsu gave Buffy a kiss of true love, it's not a crush. If it isn't for the glimmer op hope, it's because Satsu can't resist Buffy.

I think that Satsu leaving was a combination of factors actually, not just the ackwardness. Also that being around Buffy is quite hard for her.

stormwreath
18-01-09, 02:27 AM
I think Satsu certainly felt she started things in their first encounter.I agree absolutely. Given how defensive she was to Willow, I think that what happened - in Satsu's mind - is that she took advantage of Buffy's loneliness and isolation to seduce her into a night of passion. Satsu got what she'd been wanting for a long time, and now she feels guilty for 'using' Buffy.

Plus remember: Satsu is deferential to her superiors, but that certainly doesn't mean she's weak-willed.

"I don't know if I should be hurt or touched, but either way... I'm not following your orders. Not this time. I'll see you on the battlefield. Ma'am."

KingofCretins
18-01-09, 02:50 AM
I agree absolutely. Given how defensive she was to Willow, I think that what happened - in Satsu's mind - is that she took advantage of Buffy's loneliness and isolation to seduce her into a night of passion. Satsu got what she'd been wanting for a long time, and now she feels guilty for 'using' Buffy.

Plus remember: Satsu is deferential to her superiors, but that certainly doesn't mean she's weak-willed.

"I don't know if I should be hurt or touched, but either way... I'm not following your orders. Not this time. I'll see you on the battlefield. Ma'am."

On what is the idea that Satsu initiated things based? Is there any text on it that anyone can argue from? It feels like it's just out there to take some heat off Buffy, but otherwise lacking foundation.

This line from Satsu certainly hints that Buffy took the lead --


SATSU: I mean… I know what this is. I know you didn’t just… turn gay all of a sudden.

Reads like "I went along with it, but what's your deal?"

It also seems perfectly plausible that Satsu asks Willow "you think I took advantage of her?" precisely for the reason that she *didn't* initiate things.

And, yes, I had that line specifically in mind, Stormwreath, when I said that Satsu had been deferential... *before* Buffy slept with her. She showed absolutely no signs of anything like that before they had sex, and there's just no way she'd have pushed things along herself beforehand. By 8.15, she's bold enough to both make sure things are done between them *and* initiate the totally casual sex, but in 8.12? There's just no support.

stormwreath
18-01-09, 03:21 AM
On what is the idea that Satsu initiated things based? Is there any text on it that anyone can argue from? The fact that when Willow talks about "an ill-conceived one-night stand", Satsu's immediate reaction is to say "You think I took advantage of her?"

Willow's words didn't assign any kind of responsibility or blame; if Buffy had been the one initiating things, Satsu would have replied differently - probably to defend Buffy, or protest that she enjoyed their night together and doesn't feel victimised. But no; she feels that she, not Buffy, is the one to take any blame that's going around for what happened that night.

Supporting evidence: in 8.12 when Buffy is getting all defensive about her sexual skills, she says "I didn't get a lot of prep time here." That definitely shows that this was a spur-of-the-moment thing, not something she'd been thinking about or planning beforehand, and it came as a surprise to Buffy. Implying, if not proving, that it wasn't her idea but rather something she was happy to go along with.



Reads like "I went along with it, but what's your deal?"Alternatively, it reads like "I know you said only yes to me because you were curious and lonely, not because you've suddenly turned gay. I'm not expecting anything long-term from this, but I need to know how to handle it tomorrow."


It also seems perfectly plausible that Satsu asks Willow "you think I took advantage of her?" precisely for the reason that she *didn't* initiate things.Like I said above; Willow didn't say whom she thought was to blame at all; it was Satsu who leaped to that conclusion. And if Drew had wanted to show Satsu being shocked at the implication that it was her fault, rather than guilty, I think he would have emphasised that sentence differently, like so:

You think I took advantage of her?


She showed absolutely no signs of anything like that before they had sex.In 'A Beautiful Sunset', Satsu is making smart-ass comments to Buffy ("Scotland is slippery", "I really can't say") which actually seem to get Buffy a little annoyed. In her hospital bed after the fight with Twilight she's still being sarcastic ("Should I look out for that then?") but also being emotionally open and direct... something Buffy responds to by going all dilated pupils and holding Satsu's hand. :heart:

KingofCretins
18-01-09, 03:35 AM
Supporting evidence: in 8.12 when Buffy is getting all defensive about her sexual skills, she says "I didn't get a lot of prep time here." That definitely shows that this was a spur-of-the-moment thing, not something she'd been thinking about or planning beforehand, and it came as a surprise to Buffy. Implying, if not proving, that it wasn't her idea but rather something she was happy to go along with.

More than anything it proves that she'd never slept with a girl before. That it was spur-of-the-moment has never been in dispute at any point.


Alternatively, it reads like "I know you said only yes to me because you were curious and lonely, not because you've suddenly turned gay. I'm not expecting anything long-term from this, but I need to know how to handle it tomorrow."

Your interpretation has Satsu going from more or less passive and taking Buffy's lead, to asserting herself and seducing her, to once again passively putting out feelers on what direction things are going. Who acts like that?


Like I said above; Willow didn't say whom she thought was to blame at all; it was Satsu who leaped to that conclusion. And if Drew had wanted to show Satsu being shocked at the implication that it was her fault, rather than guilty, I think he would have emphasised that sentence differently, like so:

You think I took advantage of her?

Or he figured that the most common and expected reading of that line is self-evident -- Satsu is rejecting the implication. Also, contextually, yes, that's exactly what she said -- "you think *I* took advantage of *her*", or else Willow would have had no reason to immediate come back and point out that they probably were both taking advantage. Willow is backpedalling precisely because Satsu has just given her the "if anything, it was her" signal.


In 'A Beautiful Sunset', Satsu is making smart-ass comments to Buffy ("Scotland is slippery", "I really can't say") which actually seem to get Buffy a little annoyed. In her hospital bed after the fight with Twilight she's still being sarcastic ("Should I look out for that then?") but also being emotionally open and direct... something Buffy responds to by going all dilated pupils and holding Satsu's hand. :heart:

These are the biggest stretch here -- not a single one of these lines isn't something Willow wouldn't (or didn't) say to Xander back in Season 1. Would you find lines in that context as basis to figure Willow suddenly might seduce him?

stormwreath
18-01-09, 04:08 AM
More than anything it proves that she'd never slept with a girl before. Or ever even thought about it, or planned what she might do. Which does make you wonder why she would suddenly decide to ask Satsu to go to bed with her, if that's what you think happened.


Your interpretation has Satsu going from more or less passive and taking Buffy's lead, to asserting herself and seducing her, to once again passively putting out feelers on what direction things are going. Who acts like that?I'm not saying that Satsu did "assert herself and seduce her", I'm saying that that's how Satsu sees her own actions in retrospect. Both I and Willow suspect it was a little more mutual than that. I suspect they got into some sort of intimate situation like the hand-holding in 8.11 but more private and intense, and things escalated. Maybe Satsu tried her luck and was pleasantly surprised when Buffy reciprocated instead of pulling away?

And I think you're mistaking deferential behaviour with passiveness. I hate to pull the "Japanese culture" thing because it feels all Orientalist and exotic, but nevertheless, there is a stereotype (that i'm sure Drew is aware of) that Japanese women act all polite and deferential and reserved. Satsu knows how to stand up for herself, even if she doesn't actually defy Buffy openly (that we see) until after they've slept together.


Or he figured that the most common and expected reading of that line is self-evidentClearly not, since that isn't how I read it.

Given the lack of any boldface emphasis, the important words in Satsu's sentence are surely "took advantage" rather than "I" and "her". And Willow is reassuring Satsu that she has nothing to feel guilty about, beyond what Buffy also has on her conscience. She wasn't taking advantage of Buffy's vulerability, it was a mutual thing.


These are the biggest stretch here -- not a single one of these lines isn't something Willow wouldn't (or didn't) say to Xander back in Season 1. Would you find lines in that context as basis to figure Willow suddenly might seduce him?Huh? Those lines are evidence that Satsu isn't some meek, passive and helpless little victim but someone well able to answer back and stand up for herself, even before she got Buffy into bed.

And Willow wasn't always a passive victim in Season 1, either. And she was quite keen on the whole "seducing Xander" idea, as I remember...

Maggie
18-01-09, 07:30 AM
The thing that most reminded me of Buffy/Spike was when Buffy told Satsu it would be best if they didn't tell anybody about what was going on. Of course, that got all shot to hell in about 2 seconds -- but one of the things that most hurt Spike was the "dirty little secret" thing, and Buffy was totally going to do that to Satsu. Whatever her intentions were, it was not a nice thing.

I agree with Nina also that fooling around with someone who is in love with you is not a decent thing to do. It's one of the reasons that Buffy spent so long refusing to admit that Spike's feelings were real. So even though in some ways Buffy is 'better" with Satsu, she's even a bit more hard hearted since she sleeps with Satsu having fully acknowledged that Satsu is really in love with her.

There were a few other things that reminded me of Spike here: (1) Satsu is the "rude girl", sort of punkish; (2) she's the preferred patrolling partner; (3) the dynamic with Satsu "asking" for a promotion was not unlike the dynamic where Spike "asked" to wear the amulet. Not sure if any of that will turn out to matter, but they are comparisons that crossed my mind.

I tend to think that the purpose of Batsu was partly to remind us of her last relationship (and to wonder whether this represents any kind of movement along the learning curve). But I also tend to think that the larger purpose is to introduce a sexual tension/sexual jealousy dynamic between Buffy and Willow. See Willow's face when she sees them in bed together; her nosiness about what Buffy is like in bed (surely you are only curious about that when you've had occasion to wonder what it would be like to be in bed with someone); the conversation Willow and Buffy have while they wait for Satsu to finish falling; FDW's remark about Buffy's "excellent" nose; and Kennedy's reaction to Buffy's experimentation (which is brought up twice). I won't make any forecasts, but there are plenty of details to support a storyline wherein that tension is part of the "long story" FDW refers to.

Anon
18-01-09, 07:59 AM
On what is the idea that Satsu initiated things based? Is there any text on it that anyone can argue from? It feels like it's just out there to take some heat off Buffy, but otherwise lacking foundation.

This line from Satsu certainly hints that Buffy took the lead --That may be how you read it, but it doesn't suggest anything of the kind to me.


Your interpretation has Satsu going from more or less passive and taking Buffy's lead, to asserting herself and seducing her, to once again passively putting out feelers on what direction things are going. Who acts like that?She may defer to Buffy most of the time, but she wasn't a passive person. I can see her making a move in the heat of the moment, particularly since she was in love with Buffy to start with.


Or he figured that the most common and expected reading of that line is self-evidentSelf-evident? No. Sorry. That is just you. That is most definitely not how I would read that comment.


These are the biggest stretch here -- not a single one of these lines isn't something Willow wouldn't (or didn't) say to Xander back in Season 1. Would you find lines in that context as basis to figure Willow suddenly might seduce him?It shows that Satsu wasn't a passive person generally.

Buffy/Satsu is different from Buffy/Parker in that both parties knew what they were getting into and didn't really expect anything more. Satsu's comments about "How do we handle tomorrow?" and " I mean… I know what this is. I know you didn’t just… turn gay all of a sudden." are more "Where do we go from here?" remarks than anything else.

The other thing is that despite the difference in power between leader and subordinate, when they slept together, it seems to have been as equals. The same cannot be said for Buffy/Spike where Buffy was unable to end the relationship for several months before she finally regained the necessary self control. Also, the more destructive elements of Spuffy such as the violence, abuse, and Buffy's self-loathing and constant pushing away simply don't apply in Batsu. It wasn't Buffy using Spike as such that was the problem.

One more thing:
Satsu's comment about ""I don't know if I should be hurt or touched, but either way... I'm not following your orders. Not this time. I'll see you on the battlefield. Ma'am." is, as far as I'm concerned, evidence that she was perfectly capable of saying no to Buffy before they first slept together, and I'm pretty certain that Buffy would have respected that decision.

KingofCretins
18-01-09, 08:10 AM
In what way is that evidence of how she would act before they slept together? It happened after they slept together. It has nothing to tell us about how she and Buffy would have interacted prior to sleeping together.

"I know you didn't just... turn gay all of the sudden" is a line I look at specifically as establishing Buffy as the initiator -- because it's Buffy's initiation that creates the mystery for Satsu. Satsu is comfortable with what she understands, specifically that Buffy isn't gay. It was Buffy acting outside of what Satsu knew that raised the question for her. If Satsu had initiated and Buffy reciprocated, why question it after the fact? To merely initiate it Satsu would have to have been comfortable with her chances going in.

At the beginning of 8.11 Satsu did not even want Buffy to know how she felt. By the end of the issue, she was just pleased that Buffy wasn't angry with her for it or kicking her out. There's just no way she would have decided that it was time to make her move out of that.

This is an odd line in the sand to draw -- we can debate, and have, whether Buffy is right to sleep with Satsu or how it affected Buffy's position or their relationship, but there just isn't any honest question that Buffy's the one that would have had to make the first move.

vampmogs
18-01-09, 10:57 AM
We don't know and probably never will know who initiated it, but I really don't find it farfetched to suggest Satsu could have been the one who did? I think it'd be a combination of both of them really. I think Satsu gets painted to easily as "the victim" in all of this, when she knew where Buffy stood and chose to sleep with her anyway, *twice.* I think it's unfair to say "bad Buffy because she shouldn't have allowed it for Satsu's sake" when Satsu's a big enough girl to make those decisions and Buffy shouldn't be told off for anything Satsu chooses to engage in.


But it happend twice. One time can happen, but afterwards you think about it and when you think that you was wrong or unfair to the other, why would you do it again? And it wasn't Buffy who stopped with it, it was Satsu who stopped the 'relation' because she couldn't handle it.

I never saw that myself. When we come into the conversation Buffy's already talking about how she can be "not so enticing." IMO they were already in a deep discussion about breaking this thing off and leaving it where it is, Satsu just decided to go one step further and leave the squad for Tokyo. Besides, Buffy technically stopped it the moment she said it wouldn't go any further right back at the beginning of 'Wolves At The Gate.'



I agree with Nina also that fooling around with someone who is in love with you is not a decent thing to do. It's one of the reasons that Buffy spent so long refusing to admit that Spike's feelings were real. So even though in some ways Buffy is 'better" with Satsu, she's even a bit more hard hearted since she sleeps with Satsu having fully acknowledged that Satsu is really in love with her.

I still think Buffy's getting painted as the villain here and Satsu the victim rather unfairly. It takes two to tango and if Satsu decided to jump in there knowing where Buffy stood, it's as much her fault as Buffy's. I think Buffy would have been hard-hearted if she had led Satsu on but she didn't, and that's why I find the Buffy/Parker comparisons to be so unjustifiable. I don’t see how Buffy could have made her position any clearer in ‘A Beautiful Sunset’ and I don’t think Satsu could vocalise any clearer how she understood where Buffy stood.


I tend to think that the purpose of Batsu was partly to remind us of her last relationship (and to wonder whether this represents any kind of movement along the learning curve). But I also tend to think that the larger purpose is to introduce a sexual tension/sexual jealousy dynamic between Buffy and Willow.

I always interpreted the purpose of Batsu was to show Buffy that not every relationship has to end with doom and gloom. In 'A Beautiful Sunset' she tells Satsu that everyone who loves her tends to die, she feels like she's almost a curse and a danger to those around her. I also think that's a call back to her dream with Xander and being fearful that she'll hurt him. Buffy/Satsu didn't end that way though, it ended in a very mature manner where both parties agreed they should separate it and they left on very sweet terms with each other, it showed Buffy that a relationship can end in a positive way. Of course everyone can take whatever they like out of it, but that’s what I personally interpreted the purpose of this relationship being and that's great for Buffy.

Not that there wasn't some bad here.. Buffy was wrong to sleep with a "subordinate" for a whole range of issues, I think this is best shown when Satsu's hurt when Buffy takes on a commander role with her and when Satsu feels she's treating her unfairly due to personal feelings rather than professional. But that doesn't mean Buffy can't take something positive out of the relationship on an intimate level.

stormwreath
18-01-09, 01:50 PM
In what way is that evidence of how she would act before they slept together? It happened after they slept together. Less than a week after, probably. I don't think people's personalities change so dramatically overnight just because they have sex.

I'm not recognising this picture of Satsu as a feeble and helpless passive victim. She's a Slayer, she's Buffy's best fighter, she's judged worthy of independent command. She's not a victim here, however much you seem to want to turn her into one.


"I know you didn't just... turn gay all of the sudden" is a line I look at specifically as establishing Buffy as the initiator -- because it's Buffy's initiation that creates the mystery for Satsu.It works just as well if the mystery is why Buffy agreed to go along with what Satsu initiated.

stormwreath
18-01-09, 01:58 PM
But I also tend to think that the larger purpose is to introduce a sexual tension/sexual jealousy dynamic between Buffy and Willow.I definitely agree that that's part of what they're doing. On the other hand, I don't necessarily expect it to be a major story arc in itself (although it might be) - rather that it's an aspect of Buffy and Willow's relationship that Joss wanted to explore a little.

Does Willow find Buffy sexy? If not, why not? If yes, how does she feel about that? Does she hide it? Is she terrified about jeopardising their friendship? Is she up-front and casual about the whol thing? And how does Buffy feel about the situation: is she oblivious to Willow's potential interest in her, because the thought never crossed her mind? Is she flattered? Embarrassed? Squicked? Turned on? Does she tease Willow about it?

All questions that are worth exploring. :)


Personally, I've always thought that the main reason for the Buffy/Satsu relationship is to show how isolated Buffy is, and how focussed she is on her Slayers at the expense of the rest of humanity. It says something significant about her current situation if the only person she's capable of forming a sexual relationship with now is a fellow-Slayer.

Sosa lola
18-01-09, 02:05 PM
Does Willow find Buffy sexy? If not, why not? If yes, how does she feel about that? Does she hide it? Is she terrified about jeopardising their friendship? Is she up-front and casual about the whol thing? And how does Buffy feel about the situation: is she oblivious to Willow's potential interest in her, because the thought never crossed her mind? Is she flattered? Embarrassed? Squicked? Turned on? Does she tease Willow about it?
.

Poor Buffy. First Xander, now Willow. Can't she have a best friend who doesn't fancy her? :lol:

I think Buffy/Satsu is the same as Buffy/Spike in the sense that the usage is mutual. Buffy/Satsu surely has more in common with Buffy/Spike than Buffy/Parker. Nonetheless, they are not exactly the same.

Maggie
18-01-09, 03:40 PM
I still think Buffy's getting painted as the villain here and Satsu the victim rather unfairly. It takes two to tango and if Satsu decided to jump in there knowing where Buffy stood, it's as much her fault as Buffy's. I think Buffy would have been hard-hearted if she had led Satsu on but she didn't, and that's why I find the Buffy/Parker comparisons to be so unjustifiable. I don’t see how Buffy could have made her position any clearer in ‘A Beautiful Sunset’ and I don’t think Satsu could vocalise any clearer how she understood where Buffy stood.

I get that y'all are trying to figure out who the villain is. I'm not so interested in that. The whole thing was too brief for Satsu to have been victimized in any serious way. My point was just that if this allows us a quick glimpse of where Buffy is on this stuff, well -- she's still doing things like having sex with people she doesn't love, and wanting to keep that behavior secret from everyone else. Not her best traits. But not obviously villainous. Just a bit more evidence in the list of things that suggest that things are not hunky-dory with Buffy.


I always interpreted the purpose of Batsu was to show Buffy that not every relationship has to end with doom and gloom. In 'A Beautiful Sunset' she tells Satsu that everyone who loves her tends to die, she feels like she's almost a curse and a danger to those around her. I also think that's a call back to her dream with Xander and being fearful that she'll hurt him. Buffy/Satsu didn't end that way though, it ended in a very mature manner where both parties agreed they should separate it and they left on very sweet terms with each other, it showed Buffy that a relationship can end in a positive way. Of course everyone can take whatever they like out of it, but that’s what I personally interpreted the purpose of this relationship being and that's great for Buffy.

Satsu called a halt to things because she saw that it was going to be hurtful, and Buffy wasn't going to force the issue. (Well, not much -- Satsu did have to reiterate the point a few times). So I really don't see this as evidence that it's safe for someone to be involved with Buffy. As for answering the dream -- well, it's good that Buffy didn't get around to pounding Satsu's face into hamburger. OTOH, it doesn't do much to address the question of whether she can fully express her sexuality with humans without hurting them.


Personally, I've always thought that the main reason for the Buffy/Satsu relationship is to show how isolated Buffy is, and how focussed she is on her Slayers at the expense of the rest of humanity. It says something significant about her current situation if the only person she's capable of forming a sexual relationship with now is a fellow-Slayer.

Good point. Nata, over on Whedonesque, also raised the point about the panel of the Giant Dawn party where we have all these women partying but not a man in sight (until Xander comes in). There's something weird going on when you have lots of lusty young women who don't seem to have access to male companionship. So one wonders how extensive this problem is and whether or not it's part of why it's not so good to be a slayer. (For the majority who aren't lesbians, that is.)

As for the Willow-Buffy thing -- you're totally right that it could just be a small investigation of a side issue. My observation was just that if they wanted to make it an issue they've laid in plenty of details to lead into it. The "excellent nose" line particularly struck me in this regard.

Sosa lola
18-01-09, 04:25 PM
I get that y'all are trying to figure out who the villain is.

I don't think Buffy or Satsu is a villain/victim here. Buffy and Satsu had a mature and honest sexual encouter, was it a wise thing to do? Probably not, seeing as Buffy is Satsu's superior, but then we can say the same about Xander/Renee.

KingofCretins
18-01-09, 04:34 PM
We don't know and probably never will know who initiated it, but I really don't find it farfetched to suggest Satsu could have been the one who did? I think it'd be a combination of both of them really. I think Satsu gets painted to easily as "the victim" in all of this, when she knew where Buffy stood and chose to sleep with her anyway, *twice.* I think it's unfair to say "bad Buffy because she shouldn't have allowed it for Satsu's sake" when Satsu's a big enough girl to make those decisions and Buffy shouldn't be told off for anything Satsu chooses to engage in.

I still think Buffy's getting painted as the villain here and Satsu the victim rather unfairly. It takes two to tango and if Satsu decided to jump in there knowing where Buffy stood, it's as much her fault as Buffy's. I think Buffy would have been hard-hearted if she had led Satsu on but she didn't, and that's why I find the Buffy/Parker comparisons to be so unjustifiable. I don’t see how Buffy could have made her position any clearer in ‘A Beautiful Sunset’ and I don’t think Satsu could vocalise any clearer how she understood where Buffy stood.[/quote]

Here's the paradox -- if people weren't coming to this thinking that Buffy might have been wrong, there would be no seemingly counter-textual defense against the likelihood of Buffy as initiator. And, yes, both Buffy and Satsu's positions were absolutely clear after 8.11 -- which dictate that for there to be a change, it's Buffy that had to move off her position, Buffy who had to initiate it.


Less than a week after, probably. I don't think people's personalities change so dramatically overnight just because they have sex.

Forgetting for a second the other obvious example of how Spike changed overnight in how he acted around Buffy in "Wrecked", please recall that there is an entire *season* in which the critical arc is a metaphor for how drastically people can change toward someone after they had sex.


Good point. Nata, over on Whedonesque, also raised the point about the panel of the Giant Dawn party where we have all these women partying but not a man in sight (until Xander comes in). There's something weird going on when you have lots of lusty young women who don't seem to have access to male companionship. So one wonders how extensive this problem is and whether or not it's part of why it's not so good to be a slayer. (For the majority who aren't lesbians, that is.)

Where are we coming up with lusty? Not everything is sex and hormones, not even for all teenagers. Nobody in that panel looks particularly pent up. I'm sure they are a short drive from all sorts of Scottish lads who'd be happy to comfort the chicks from that strange girls school.


I don't think Buffy or Satsu is a villain/victim here. Buffy and Satsu had a mature and honest sexual encouter, was it a wise thing to do? Probably not, seeing as Buffy is Satsu's superior, but then we can say the same about Xander/Renee.

I, for one, have said the same about Xander/Renee.

Emmie
18-01-09, 06:18 PM
Here's the paradox -- if people weren't coming to this thinking that Buffy might have been wrong, there would be no seemingly counter-textual defense against the likelihood of Buffy as initiator.

I think the fandom reaction to this event is too wide and diverse to use it as evidence of much more than just what you said, there were different interpretations. If we're going based on fandom expectations and Buffy's own avowals of not being gay, remember how shocking it was to turn the page and see Buffy and Satsu in bed enjoying the afterglow? What's more likely - that Buffy just looked at Satsu and grabbed her for a kiss of experiementation or that Satsu initiated it, emboldened by her attraction to Buffy? For Buffy to initiate the kiss really does paint her badly, making her the one who condemns a new lover to disappearing or dying from her viewpoint.

No matter how seemingly reserved Satsu may appear, Buffy is even more reserved because she's never been attracted to a woman before, she's afraid of being close to someone and hurting them, and she knows how deeply emotionally involved Satsu is because she remembers how it feels to be in love. To say Buffy initiated the kiss completely backtracks Buffy's concern for Satsu in ABS and makes her seem (retroactively) insincere. Was she just saying all that but not really worried about Satsu's well-being?

I find it more likely that 1) they both were too caught up in the moment to think clearly or 2) Satsu felt emboldened by the situation and tried to steal a kiss, surprising Buffy but also encouraging the moment to grow. Option 3) Buffy initiating the sexual encounter by stealing a kiss just doesn't fit with her characterization for Season 8. If there's one thing that's true so far, it's that Buffy is careful and calculating of everything she does until she gets caught by surprise (teleported by Roden, taken to the future by Future Willow, caught off guard by Harmony, not being able to convince Soledad to join her Slayer army). Buffy works so hard to be in control of herself that she's a fortress (recall that image of the lone general in #13) but she can't control other people's actions.

A theme of Season 8 for Buffy's characterization is that she lacks control of others, but when she does try to assert control it's not for personal reasons but inspired by Slayer business. Buffy on a personal level doesn't force her will onto others - the only example we have of this would be with Buffy and Spike's sexual relationship in Season 6. Season 8 Buffy tries to deal with her world responsibly (fighting evil, letting Satsu down gently) but events and people are out of her control. She's trying to do the right thing all the time but keeps missing the mark because she can't order her life into perfect alignment. Buffy initiating the encounter with Satsu (with Satsu just passively accepting it) paints her as reckless and impulsive both emotionally, sexually and professionally. It goes against her characterization imo to say this 'fortress of solitude' jumps on someone who's in love with her in order to feel connection irregardless of the fact that she's "not so you'd notice" gay. While Buffy might not have thought of the professional complications, she was very aware of the emotional (she's not in love with Satsu, Satsu could get hurt) and sexual ones (not so gay) - further compound this with the fact that she's traumatically gun shy about relationships and I find it even more unlikely that Buffy impulsively leaned in for a kiss.

Either it happened simultaneously between both of them, surprised them and they were caught up in the moment or Satsu became emboldened by the situation (e.g. they were sparring and Satsu managed to land a hit, they both tumble to the ground and seeing Buffy's lips so close, she acts without thinking - the moment grows from there). But saying Buffy overcame all of her issues to initiate a sexual encounter with Satsu is a lot to expect. Too much IMO.

And to say that Satsu is too reticent, reserved, passive to initiate things - well Satsu's in love with Buffy. Throw logic out the window because love is the greatest motivator of impulsive and illogical actions. Love overcomes all, especially fear of rejection. It makes you do the wacky. So Satsu taking action because she's in love - well, that impulsive action fits completely with her characterization.

KingofCretins
18-01-09, 06:33 PM
I think the fandom reaction to this event is too wide and diverse to use it as evidence of much more than just what you said, there were different interpretations. If we're going based on fandom expectations and Buffy's own avowals of not being gay, remember how shocking it was to turn the page and see Buffy and Satsu in bed enjoying the afterglow? What's more likely - that Buffy just looked at Satsu and grabbed her for a kiss of experiementation or that Satsu initiated it, emboldened by her attraction to Buffy? For Buffy to initiate the kiss really does paint her badly, making her the one who condemns a new lover to disappearing or dying from her viewpoint.

That Buffy initiated it is more likely to the point of being prohibitive. Appealing to the shock of that first panel in 8.12 only reinforces it for me -- my first thought was "well, I guess she changed her mind".


No matter how seemingly reserved Satsu may appear, Buffy is even more reserved because she's never been attracted to a woman before, she's afraid of being close to someone and hurting them, and she knows how deeply emotionally involved Satsu is because she remembers how it feels to be in love. To say Buffy initiated the kiss completely backtracks Buffy's concern for Satsu in ABS and makes her seem (retroactively) insincere. Was she just saying all that but not really worried about Satsu's well-being?

She's pretty glib about how attractive Satsu is to have "never been attracted to a woman before", for which we have no text for or against.

As for Buffy's concern... with all due respect to Buffy, the mere fact that they had sex proves she wasn't being sincere. So it's not introducing something new for the initiation to make her insincere.


I find it more likely that 1) they both were too caught up in the moment to think clearly or 2) Satsu felt emboldened by the situation and tried to steal a kiss, surprising Buffy but also encouraging the moment to grow. Option 3) Buffy initiating the sexual encounter by stealing a kiss just doesn't fit with her characterization for Season 8. If there's one thing that's true so far, it's that Buffy is careful and calculating of everything she does until she gets caught by surprise (teleported by Roden, taken to the future by Future Willow, caught off guard by Harmony, not being able to convince Soledad to join her Slayer army). Buffy works so hard to be in control of herself that she's a fortress (recall that image of the lone general in #13) but she can't control other people's actions.

1) sounds at least plausible, but still dubious -- the "caught up in a moment" scenario, like "I Will Remember You", suggests some long held tension, and there's no sign of that anywhere. Plus, it still would have required SOME kind of go sign from Buffy. 2)... just no. I think it's directly contrary to the characterization and also to their post-coital pillow talk -- it's Satsu who didn't know what was going on, didn't know what had motivated Buffy to change her mind. 3) How do we get to initiation as narrow as a "stolen kiss"? Initiation is giving the green light that sex is available and desired. It could be them walking along and Satsu reaching out to squeeze Buffy's hand before leaving and Buffy not letting go and then giving her the look. It could be any number of things. But Buffy is the only one who had to change from 8.11 to 8.12 for them to get into bed. That, by definition, makes her the initiator.

Male Slayer
18-01-09, 06:51 PM
hey when is buffy going to have a proper relationship? i mean is she doomed to loneliness or soemthing?

Nina
18-01-09, 07:00 PM
I'm afraid that every character is doomed to be alone. It's rule number 1 in the 'verse. No matter if you look at Ats or BtVS, every relation is doomed to fail. Only Kennedy/Willow is still working, but you never know how long that will stay that way. I think that Buffy is still one of the characters who is a bit less doomed than some other characters. Cordelia is really doomed, the same for Wesley, Connor and Giles.

Emmie
18-01-09, 07:01 PM
That Buffy initiated it is more likely to the point of being prohibitive. Appealing to the shock of that first panel in 8.12 only reinforces it for me -- my first thought was "well, I guess she changed her mind".

Changing her mind doesn't necessitate her being the one who started it - it actually raises the need for there to be a reason she changed her mind. Something must have changed between #11 and #12 to make her backtrack on her firm decision. I find a passionate moment either mutually initiated or initiated by Satsu as more likely. So what are you attributing as the reason she changed her mind?




She's pretty glib about how attractive Satsu is to have "never been attracted to a woman before", for which we have no text for or against.

And pretty glib thereby means that she's been panting for Satsu all this time or that she's been hiding her attraction before. As for not being attracted to a woman before - I take that "not so you'd notice" as Buffy's self-reflecting on the fact that she'd herself had never noticed an attraction to women before. Here's the thing that gets me about the way Buffy's sexual attraction to Satsu was played - girls are very vocal about how they find their friends attractive. Not that they're attracted to their friends, but that they recognize their friends are pretty, hot, what-have-you. It's called affirmation. My saying my best friend is sexy, hot, pretty doesn't mean I personally am attracted to her but more that I recognize that quality that others find attractive. So Buffy's comment about "best hair ever" read as friendly admiration to me and her calling Satsu "hot" is something I've said to my friends all the time before going out on a Saturday night. What's more, Buffy calls Satsu hot in a conciliatory manner - like me telling a friend who's just suffered a break-up 'Don't worry, you're hot and will find someone else in no time'. This is more my problem with how they sold that Buffy was attracted to Satsu - clearly she was attracted or they wouldn't have had sex. But the lead-up on Buffy's side didn't read to me as anything more than a friend who became aware that her friend was in love with her and tried to let her down gently because she saw no future in it.





As for Buffy's concern... with all due respect to Buffy, the mere fact that they had sex proves she wasn't being sincere. So it's not introducing something new for the initiation to make her insincere.

Now that statement makes me want to respond in ways that could be viewed as hostile. Now, how to say that judgment of Buffy's sincerity resembles a pile of horse manure without being offensive...

It doesn't resemble earth logic. Saying that Buffy never really cared because she slept with Satsu means you're painting her as an even bigger villain here. Not only did she initiate the sexual encounter and take advantage of Satsu (which is what I'm interpreting as your stance), but she also never cared about her?

Yeah, no. Buffy is a compassionate person (#20's OOC callousness notwithstanding) and she genuinely cared about Satsu. (To demonstrate I'm not really hostile, but still seriously disagree with you here = :) )




1) sounds at least plausible, but still dubious -- the "caught up in a moment" scenario, like "I Will Remember You", suggests some long held tension, and there's no sign of that anywhere. Plus, it still would have required SOME kind of go sign from Buffy. 2)... just no. I think it's directly contrary to the characterization and also to their post-coital pillow talk -- it's Satsu who didn't know what was going on, didn't know what had motivated Buffy to change her mind. 3) How do we get to initiation as narrow as a "stolen kiss"? Initiation is giving the green light that sex is available and desired. It could be them walking along and Satsu reaching out to squeeze Buffy's hand before leaving and Buffy not letting go and then giving her the look. It could be any number of things. But Buffy is the only one who had to change from 8.11 to 8.12 for them to get into bed. That, by definition, makes her the initiator.

Well, you're raising the question of what we define as 'initiation'. I see their encounter happening as something that wasn't planned (like Buffy taking Satsu's hand and leading her to her bedroom), but they were caught up in passion and to me holding hands just ain't revving up the engines enough to overcome Buffy's reservations. What's more - once the sex is finished, Buffy retreats back behind her reserved wall and shuts Satsu out. So passion is what I view as necessary for Buffy and Satsu to have slept together and I don't think Buffy became overcome by Satsu's supercool hairdo. So that means kissing and intimate touching.

KingofCretins
18-01-09, 07:11 PM
Changing her mind doesn't necessitate her being the one who started it - it actually raises the need for there to be a reason she changed her mind. Something must have changed between #11 and #12 to make her backtrack on her firm decision. I find a passionate moment either mutually initiated or initiated by Satsu as more likely. So what are you attributing as the reason she changed her mind?

S'okay, I have similar manure-y feelings about some of this thread to the ones you mention ;) Namely, that, despite Buffy having been the initiator in every sexual relationship she's had so far, Buffy was coaxed by the professional subordinate who she had just given the talk to into her first same sex encounter. Like Bill Cosby's Noah said to the Lord, "...right".


Now that statement makes me want to respond in ways that could be viewed as hostile. Now, how to say that judgment of Buffy's sincerity resembles a pile of horse manure without being offensive...

It doesn't resemble earth logic. Saying that Buffy never really cared because she slept with Satsu means you're painting her as an even bigger villain here. Not only did she initiate the sexual encounter and take advantage of Satsu (which is what I'm interpreting as your stance), but she also never cared about her?

It's the truth. Buffy went back on everything she said to Satsu about the risk of getting involved with her, period. And that's true *regardless* of who initiated it. It's as black and white as her beating the hell out of Spike.

Who said "never really cared"? Who implied it? How did it even get in the discussion? I answered exactly what you said -- that Buffy wasn't worried about the things she told Satsu in 8.11. Obviously she's not if she turned right around and slept with her after telling Satsu how much better off she is to not be involved with Buffy. Res ipsa loquitur.


(To demonstrate I'm not really hostile, but still seriously disagree with you here = :) )

If I actually got mad at someone over a fan argument in any substantial way, I'd get out of the fandom altogether. It's fun, it's interesting, it's thought-provoking, but it doesn't *matter* :hug:


Well, you're raising the question of what we define as 'initiation'. I see their encounter happening as something that wasn't planned (like Buffy taking Satsu's hand and leading her to her bedroom), but they were caught up in passion and to me holding hands just ain't revving up the engines enough to overcome Buffy's reservations. What's more - once the sex is finished, Buffy retreats back behind her reserved wall and shuts Satsu out. So passion is what I view as necessary for Buffy and Satsu to have slept together and I don't think Buffy became overcome by Satsu's supercool hairdo. So that means kissing and intimate touching.

For me it's the first overt act. The quiet "don't go", the lingering grip that pulls someone close, the stolen kiss. Any of these and any of a bunch of other things. It's the announcement of what you want by some signal or another and taking a demonstrable act to get it. That could *only* have come from Buffy. And, as mentioned, it only ever has in her whole sexual history.

Emmie
18-01-09, 07:31 PM
I find that we've reduced our discussion to debating the meaning of words now. Never a good sign.


As for Buffy's concern... with all due respect to Buffy, the mere fact that they had sex proves she wasn't being sincere. So it's not introducing something new for the initiation to make her insincere.


Who said "never really cared"? Who implied it? How did it even get in the discussion? I answered exactly what you said -- that Buffy wasn't worried about the things she told Satsu in 8.11. Obviously she's not if she turned right around and slept with her after telling Satsu how much better off she is to not be involved with Buffy. Res ipsa loquitur.

The one thing I'll respond to right now is that my "never really cared" came from your stating that she wasn't sincere. I read your statement to say that Buffy having sex with Satsu proved she, in fact, wasn't sincere in ABS. And your statement sprung from my previous point that making Buffy the calculating initiator contradicts her concern and caring for Satsu in ABS. I found her caring for Satsu as genuine in that issue, no question.

Buffy's sincere. She does care about Satsu and having sex with her doesn't mean that concern vanished. I believe it was overridden by circumstances and I'm attributing those circumstances to be passion and loneliness (on Buffy's side) combined with passion and love (on Satsu's side). The kind of unexpected passion that clouds your judgment. I don't think Buffy was consciously contradicting her feelings and concerns by sleeping with Satsu, but merely her emotional and physical reactions caught her by surprise and she got swept away in the moment.

KingofCretins
18-01-09, 07:40 PM
You're the one who said insincere, I just quoted it back.

For me, this entire tangent basically amounts to a way to put Buffy behind a shield whereby if Satsu initiated it, nothing bad about them sleeping together (if there is anything) is Buffy's fault anymore. But it's Satsu who doesn't quite "get" how they ended up in bed, and it's Buffy who has been the one to initiate sex with every partner she's had.

vampmogs
19-01-09, 04:56 AM
I get that y'all are trying to figure out who the villain is. I'm not so interested in that.

Not at all, I don't particularly think either of them were a villain here. I had no issues with either Buffy or Satsu at all and honestly don't really care who initiated it, the only bad concerns their roles and how appropriate it is to mix business with pleasure, but I'd never paint either a villain.


I don't think Buffy or Satsu is a villain/victim here. Buffy and Satsu had a mature and honest sexual encouter, was it a wise thing to do? Probably not, seeing as Buffy is Satsu's superior, but then we can say the same about Xander/Renee.

Excellent point, it's interesting that Buffy gets a lot of flak here but not Xander hmmm.. Kinda like how Buffy gets a lot of flack or the bank robbery but also not Xander, who has no moral issues with it at all. Perhaps we're all too hard on the Buffster?



Here's the paradox -- if people weren't coming to this thinking that Buffy might have been wrong, there would be no seemingly counter-textual defense against the likelihood of Buffy as initiator. And, yes, both Buffy and Satsu's positions were absolutely clear after 8.11 -- which dictate that for there to be a change, it's Buffy that had to move off her position, Buffy who had to initiate it.

I still don't see why. I can perfectly see where Emmie's coming from and envision a moment where Satsu made the first move and Buffy, caught up in the moment and feeling that connection, went with it. It just doesn't sound that radical to me, I can't really understand why it does to you?

I can’t see Buffy just boldly making a move on Satsu when she shows how much she cares for her in ‘A Beautiful Sunset’ and how much she worries that Satsu may get hurt if they get involved in anyway. To me the only way it’d make sense if Satsu felt that Buffy was starting to want that connection, made a first move and Buffy, confident that it’s what she wanted, made a move back. That seems far more realistic to me.

Anon
19-01-09, 07:32 AM
In what way is that evidence of how she would act before they slept together? It happened after they slept together. It has nothing to tell us about how she and Buffy would have interacted prior to sleeping together.Satsu didn't undergo some mystical personality reform the moment she and Buffy started making love. It doesn't even tell us how she would act, it simply shows us what she was capable of.


"I know you didn't just... turn gay all of the sudden" is a line I look at specifically as establishing Buffy as the initiator -- because it's Buffy's initiation that creates the mystery for Satsu. Satsu is comfortable with what she understands, specifically that Buffy isn't gay. It was Buffy acting outside of what Satsu knew that raised the question for her. If Satsu had initiated and Buffy reciprocated, why question it after the fact? To merely initiate it Satsu would have to have been comfortable with her chances going in.What are you talking about?


At the beginning of 8.11 Satsu did not even want Buffy to know how she felt. By the end of the issue, she was just pleased that Buffy wasn't angry with her for it or kicking her out. There's just no way she would have decided that it was time to make her move out of that.Do the words "spur of the moment" mean anything to you? Anything at all?


Here's the paradox -- if people weren't coming to this thinking that Buffy might have been wrong, there would be no seemingly counter-textual defence against the likelihood of Buffy as initiator. And, yes, both Buffy and Satsu's positions were absolutely clear after 8.11 -- which dictate that for there to be a change, it's Buffy that had to move off her position, Buffy who had to initiate it.Might have been wrong to sleep with Satsu? Yes. But this works even if Satsu made the first move or they both made a move at the same time.


1) sounds at least plausible, but still dubious -- the "caught up in a moment" scenario, like "I Will Remember You", suggests some long held tension, and there's no sign of that anywhere.Given where they where at the end of 8.11, I wouldn't have thought it needed that much build up.


Plus, it still would have required SOME kind of go sign from Buffy. 2)... just no. I think it's directly contrary to the characterization and also to their post-coital pillow talk -- it's Satsu who didn't know what was going on, didn't know what had motivated Buffy to change her mind.Satsu was asking "What happens now?". Given that she knew, and clearly states that she knows, that Buffy wasn't likely to be interested in anything long term and she had just slept with her superior, this isn't an unreasonable line to take. However, it is entirely unrelated to how the situation came about.


3) How do we get to initiation as narrow as a "stolen kiss"? Initiation is giving the green light that sex is available and desired. It could be them walking along and Satsu reaching out to squeeze Buffy's hand before leaving and Buffy not letting go and then giving her the look. It could be any number of things. But Buffy is the only one who had to change from 8.11 to 8.12 for them to get into bed. That, by definition, makes her the initiator.No it doesn't. For Buffy to be the initiator, she would have to have been the one who made the first move. There is no reason to believe that Satsu didn't see what she thought, on some level, was an opportunity and decide to take a chance.


S'okay, I have similar manure-y feelings about some of this thread to the ones you mention ;) Namely, that, despite Buffy having been the initiator in every sexual relationship she's had so far, Buffy was coaxed by the professional subordinate who she had just given the talk to into her first same sex encounter. Like Bill Cosby's Noah said to the Lord, "...right".Coaxed? Given where they where after 8.11, I really don't think much would have been required in the way of coaxing either.


For me, this entire tangent basically amounts to a way to put Buffy behind a shield whereby if Satsu initiated it, nothing bad about them sleeping together (if there is anything) is Buffy's fault anymore.This isn't about blame. The blame is split 50/50 regardless. Unless you're claiming that Buffy somehow "pressured" Satsu into sleeping with her, which is extremely unlikely.


But it's Satsu who doesn't quite "get" how they ended up in bed, and it's Buffy who has been the one to initiate sex with every partner she's had.I haven't seen anything that counts as definite evidence that Satsu doesn't "get" how they ended up in bed. She is uncertain afterwards, but that's about what happens next, not how they got there.

lmblack21
23-01-09, 08:08 AM
I don't think Buffy or Satsu is a villain/victim here. Buffy and Satsu had a mature and honest sexual encouter, was it a wise thing to do? Probably not, seeing as Buffy is Satsu's superior, but then we can say the same about Xander/Renee.


I like your answer best, though I don't consider it "mature". But I agree that neither Buffy nor Satsu is a victim, it was most definitely NOTHING like Buffy/Parker, but had some similiarities with B/S.

The thing is, Buffy/Satsu was nicer, was sweeter, was more respectful and caring than Buffy/Spike, but it also has the aspect of being not just emotionally unbalanced (as B/S was, with Buffy not being in love with her chosen sexual partner), it was out of whack in terms of power. Buffy was her boss, Satsu calls her "ma'am" and takes orders from her. Plus, it comes back to the same theme of Buffy turning to someone only sexually because she feels disconnected - although that does at least end debate that she was somehow "healed" from that in season 7.

I dislike Buffy/Satsu mostly because it seems to serve no narrative purpose that I've been able to discern. It was all about shock value, the "tee hee" mentality of girl on girl action. Buffy is not changed by it, doesn't seem to learn something from it, it hasn't advanced her storyline but it DID get people talking and it got Joss press attention for his comic. To me, that's all it ended up boiling down to. And that's cheap story-telling, imo.

-Luc

vampmogs
23-01-09, 08:11 AM
I dislike Buffy/Satsu mostly because it seems to serve no narrative purpose that I've been able to discern. It was all about shock value, the "tee hee" mentality of girl on girl action. Buffy is not changed by it, doesn't seem to learn something from it, it hasn't advanced her storyline but it DID get people talking and it got Joss press attention for his comic. To me, that's all it ended up boiling down to. And that's cheap story-telling, imo.

Why would Joss need press attention for a comic that is doing very well? Why would Joss suddenly a need a "tee hee" mentality for girl on girl action when he never did before? Why would Joss suddenly need to get people talking when his fans already where talking about season eight to great extent?

lmblack21
23-01-09, 08:14 AM
Why would Joss need press attention for a comic that is doing very well? Why would Joss suddenly a need a "tee hee" mentality for girl on girl action when he never did before? Why would Joss suddenly need to get people talking when his fans already where talking about season eight to great extent?

Then please explain the point, cause I must have missed it. It seems to have been done for the pleasure of the "shock" than for anything else.

I've seen no message, no advancement of story or character and in fact, based on upcoming issues...

...they are gonna continue to bang the drum, in case anyone didn't get the message that Buffy is not gay, not gay, not gay!!!

So what is the point? How is Buffy changed, how is her story affected? Cause all I see is a repetition of old patterns with no discernible (or satisfactory) resolution. Is it possible that that will still come? Sure, but I have serious doubts.

Plus, I tend to believe this because Joss himself is on record as saying that THIS is the revelation we will be "talking about for years". Ooookay. And it's not like fans of Buffy are the only ones to have this thought. From this article (http://abcnews.go.com/entertainment/Story?id=4396156&page=2), we have this quote:

But for Stephen Krensky, author of "Comic Book Century: The History of American Comic Books," it's not so clear that Buffy's gay romp was a true advancement of her character and not just a way to freshen up the comic and keep it from its demise.

"Comic books are competing now with video games, DVDs and 'Guitar Hero' for the attention of the audience that, let's face it, they had [during the 1960s]," said Krensky. "Now it's, 'how do we get attention' and 'how do we find a niche?'"

So I'm not exactly voicing a totally unheard of possiblity of the inclusion of this sexual romp.

-Luc

vampmogs
23-01-09, 08:32 AM
Then please explain the point, cause I must have missed it. It seems to have been done for the pleasure of the "shock" than for anything else.

I’ve already explained a number of times what I believe to be the point of Buffy/Satsu.

The first and most obvious in my opinion, is to show some of Buffy’s more questionable decision making this season. She slept with a subordinate which led to a whole range of issues, Satsu flat out ignored Buffy’s order in ‘Wolves At The Gate’ and we are seeing the consequences of that again in ‘Swell’ with Satsu intentionally being vague in her mission reports. It’s just another piece to the ongoing puzzle to show Buffy in a morally grey light this season as her decision making becomes increasingly more murky, which by this point seems to be a well established point of her character’s arc.

The other point is to show Buffy that not all relationships have to end tragically and that relationships can end maturely and applicably. It’s not a coincidence that it’s Satsu who Buffy confides in, in ‘A Beautiful Sunset’ when she breaks down sobbing about how all the people who love her are hurt as a result of their feelings for her. Buffy feels guilt ridden and broken about how all her past relationships have ended. However, Buffy/Satsu didn’t end this way, it ended in a mature and sweet manner with both girls coming to the conclusion that they can’t be together. It ended with a smile which was new for Buffy and taught her that she can find that connection without the other person being put in mortal danger. And it also taught her that relationships can end well, that Buffy can come out of a relationship happily and not emotionally wounded. It was a mini arc for Buffy, starting in ‘A Beautiful Sunset’ and ending in ‘Wolves At the Gate’ but the relationship itself had roots stemming from as early as ‘The Long Way Home’ when we learn Buffy misses that intimate contact.

As far as them "banging" about the message that Buffy is not gay, well sorry but do you hardly blame them. Because as far as I recall that's all the haters could rant about when this all started with sarcastic snarks, "So what Buffy's gay now?" over and over again no matter how much Joss persisted, in both the writing and interviews that she wasn't.

lmblack21
23-01-09, 08:40 AM
I’ve already explained a number of times what I believe to be the point of Buffy/Satsu.

The first and most obvious in my opinion, is to show some of Buffy’s more questionable decision making this season. She slept with a subordinate which led to a whole range of issues, Satsu flat out ignored Buffy’s order in ‘Wolves At The Gate’ and we are seeing the consequences of that again in ‘Swell’ with Satsu intentionally being vague in her mission reports. It’s just another piece to the ongoing puzzle to show Buffy in a morally grey light this season as her decision making becomes increasingly more murky, which by this point seems to be a well established point of her character’s arc.

I would love this and I certainly hope it does come to pass. I don't honestly think it will, though. Time will tell. Hey, if I'm wrong, and there is actually a point to this relationship I'll be happy enough to say I was wrong. So far I don't see the proof of this yet. As I said, perhaps this is yet to come, only time will tell.


The other point is to show Buffy that not all relationships have to end tragically and that relationships can end maturely and applicably. It’s not a coincidence that it’s Satsu who Buffy confides in, in ‘A Beautiful Sunset’ when she breaks down sobbing about how all the people who love her are hurt as a result of their feelings for her. Buffy feels guilt ridden and broken about how all her past relationships have ended. However, Buffy/Satsu didn’t end this way, it ended in a mature and sweet manner with both girls coming to the conclusion that they can’t be together. It ended with a smile which was new for Buffy and taught her that she can find that connection without the other person being put in mortal danger. And it also taught her that relationships can end well, that Buffy can come out of a relationship happily and not emotionally wounded. It was a mini arc for Buffy, starting in ‘A Beautiful Sunset’ and ending in ‘Wolves At the Gate’ but the relationship itself had roots stemming from as early as ‘The Long Way Home’ when we learn Buffy misses that intimate contact.

That's all well and good, but it's only true for BUFFY. It clearly has impacted/hurt and affected Satsu far more. And frankly, I didn't see it ending so maturely - anytime one half of the relationship feels the need to seriously get out of town - like to a different COUNTRY - I can't see it as being a mature ending. It was heartbreaking to one of them at any rate. Plus, while all of this sounds nice, since I haven't seen Buffy reacting in a way that actually supports this, I have a hard time seeing it. I think it literally was what Joss claimed it was - Buffy being all "open minded" and experimenting because she was lonely. And hey, been there, done that. I thought she'd already learned from that when she admitted to Tara that it was NOT okay to use Spike. And if Joss' words about this relationship IS what she was going through, and IS what we are supposed to see/take from it, then it wasn't mature or nice. Of COURSE Buffy came out of it okay - she wasn't emotionally invested in it to begin with. Why should it be tragic or upsetting for her? But what does that say about her character? The fact that she breaks down and cries about how everyone in her past is hurt by their feelings for her - when Satsu is ALSO hurt because she loves Buffy - is exactly why it's NOT a good thing. You say Buffy's guilt-ridden and while that's true, it didn't stop her from doing the same thing AGAIN.

And if it WAS so mature, so okay, so liberating and eye opening to Buffy, why did she fall into the old habit of wanting to hide it, keep it secret from her friends? There are so many issues with how it was handled that I just can't see the lessons you claim are there for us.


As far as them "banging" about the message that Buffy is not gay, well sorry but do you hardly blame them. Because as far as I recall that's all the haters could rant about when this all started with sarcastic snarks, "So what Buffy's gay now?" over and over again no matter how much Joss persisted, in both the writing and interviews that she wasn't.

Well, it's hardly a surprising reaction when you have a female character who has never expressed any interest in women sexually suddenly get busy (all night) with another woman. And enjoy it so much that it happens again. And considering that Joss has done that story before, it was a valid question. Frankly, I think the reason the writers - aka, Joss - have to bang the point home so much (suddenly I realize the unintentional pun there) is because, one again, he is reverting to "tell, don't show".

Ah well, like I said, it's a personal thing. I realize not everyone will see it the same way, but I've seen nothing to indicate it's any more than what I've said. Cheap storytelling - and retreading of old stories for the same point.

-Luc

vampmogs
23-01-09, 09:03 AM
I would love this and I certainly hope it does come to pass. I don't honestly think it will, though. Time will tell. Hey, if I'm wrong, and there is actually a point to this relationship I'll be happy enough to say I was wrong. So far I don't see the proof of this yet. As I said, perhaps this is yet to come, only time will tell.

It already has come to pass. I don’t think there’s a single person out there who can claim sleeping with a subordinate was a good decision. It fits with Buffy’s other dodgy decisions this season;

* Having slayer decoys as targets for people wanting to kill her in ‘The Long Way Home’
* Reconsidering her stance on not killing humans, and nearly killing Gigi in a moment of rage in ‘No Future For You’
* Robbing banks to fund her organisation in ‘Anywhere But Here’
* Sleeping with Satsu, a subordinate which compromises her authority in ‘Wolves At The Gate’
* Wanting to let innocents die for the bigger picture in ‘Time of Your Life’

It’s part of her arc this season, to show that Buffy has become somewhat corrupted by her new life. It’s why Twilight’s a compelling villain, because although he’s horrible in his own right he wants to rid Buffy of her “moral certainty” and judging by Buffy’s facial expression as he makes her question the good her slayer army has done, he’s succeeding.


That's all well and good, but it's only true for BUFFY. It clearly has impacted/hurt and affected Satsu far more.

Satsu wasn’t just going to get over it, it’d be unrealistic if she did. The spell proved that she had true love for Buffy and it wasn’t some crush, but it did end with a smile not only from Buffy but from Satsu as well.


And frankly, I didn't see it ending so maturely - anytime one half of the relationship feels the need to seriously get out of town - like to a different COUNTRY - I can't see it as being a mature ending.

How not? Both girls realised that it was unhealthy and pointless to remain close to one another when the relationship would never become anything more. They both understood this, both talked openly about it and both came to accept it. Satsu realised the most healthy option for her was to get out from Buffy’s wing so she could move on with her life and got a pretty decent promotion at the same time. It’s the epitome of mature. It’s using your head over your heart, just like Angel was very mature to leave Buffy in season three and get out of town.


It was heartbreaking to one of them at any rate. Plus, while all of this sounds nice, since I haven't seen Buffy reacting in a way that actually supports this, I have a hard time seeing it.

How do you expect her to react? You want her to go around telling her friends, “hey I was in a relationship that didn’t end tragically!” I mean, there’s only so much they can depict? I think their break-up scene did a very good job at it.

SATSU: (from next scene) “I thought we’d act like nothing happened…”

The next image looks into a bedroom window in the castle. Satsu and Buffy are sitting next to each other on a bed, facing away from us. Satsu is wearing jeans, and Buffy is in green capri pants and a matching shirt.

SATSU: I thought we’d wake up and everything would be fine. But everything’s not fine.

We see them from inside the room, still from behind. Buffy has her legs crossed away from Satsu, looking a little uncomfortable.

SATSU: I don’t think I can be around you right now, Buffy.

BUFFY: It’s me, isn’t it? I’m making it worse…

The view shifts around and we see them from the front. Buffy is looking over to Satsu, trying to reassure her, and the younger woman keeps her eyes on the floor.

BUFFY: I can change. I can be less… enticing. In a lesbian sense. That didn’t come out right. I can make it easier on you, I promise.

SATSU: It’s not you. Or, I mean…

We see from Buffy’s side as Satsu turns to look at her.

SATSU: It’s *totally* you. But it’s not like it’s something you’re doing, it’s just…

We see them from the front again. Buffy listens, watching Satsu patiently as Satsu tries to get it out.

SATSU: I’m in love with you. And I need to *not be*. And that’s never gonna happen when you’re right in front of me.

From Satsu’s side, we see Buffy, uncertain of what Satsu is asking.

BUFFY: You want me to leave?

SATSU: More like I should stay. Here. In Japan.

The view reverses to Satsu in profile.

SATSU: The Tokyo office needs a field leader. I guess I’m asking for a promotion.

We see them from above as Buffy stands and thinks about what Satsu is asking her.

BUFFY: It’s a lot of work, Satsu.

SATSU: I know.

BUFFY: These girls are raw. They need training. Most of ‘em aren’t ready for what’s to come.

SATSU: I won’t let you down.

We see Buffy in close-up, and she’s smiling as if she understands something more clearly than before.

BUFFY: I know you won’t.

In a wider view, Buffy knees beside the bed where Satsu is still sitting.

BUFFY: I just hope… I just hope I didn’t hurt you.

SATSU: Nah. I’m tough. And for what it’s worth…

In close-up, we see Satsu smile warmly at Buffy as she admits her opinion.

SATSU: It was one of the best nights of my life.

We see Buffy in close-up as well as she smiles in return.

BUFFY: Mine too.

Buffy is still kneeling next to Satsu, looking up at her face.

BUFFY: So.

SATSU: So.

BUFFY: What do we do now? Say goodbye? Go our separate ways and such?

SATSU: Well.

In a close-up, we see their faces get closer to each other, eyes locked on each other’s.

SATSU: I suppose we could always save goodbye for tomorrow…



And if it WAS so mature, so okay, so liberating and eye opening to Buffy, why did she fall into the old habit of wanting to hide it, keep it secret from her friends? There are so many issues with how it was handled that I just can't see the lessons you claim are there for us.


That's what was so great about Buffy/Satsu, it subverted and undercut what you'd come to expect from Buffy and her relationships. It was written in a way that Buffy was unable to fall back into this old unhealthy traps. As you say, she wanted to go back into that old habit of wanting to hide it from her friends, but they wrote it in such a way that this was completely blown out of the water when her friends all see her in the act moments later. And the same can be said for how it ended, it ended happily and with a smile, not in tears. Everything you'd come to expect from Buffy, didn't come to fruition.

lmblack21
23-01-09, 09:19 AM
Well I love that you see it that way and I appreciate you taking the time, but for me...it just didn't come across that way. I wish it did. Maybe it still will, sometime in the future.

-Luc