View Full Version : Angel: After the Fall #14
Out this Wednesday! And again, let's start with a 5-page preview:
GET IT HERE (http://issuu.com/idwpublishing/docs/angel14/3?mode=embed&documentId=081116170505-816a0fb3e5d14598ad100155c42e31f5&layout=grey)
Ahhhhhhh! I want more!
I loved what Groo named his pegasus! Actually, I love Groo in general in After the Fall, even though I didn't like him all that much in the televised series. Also, great Spike voice, very in-character.
Still not quite sure what's Gunn's plan for Illyria, but I think that's the point. For the moment, I just love seeing them interact. As much as I adore Season 5 of Angel, it had quite a few wrongs that Angel: After the Fall is currently righting, and lack of Gunn-Illyria interaction is one of them. :)
I can't wait, this looks good!
Wow, another Cordelia. :lol: I had some trouble understanding Groo, but I blame my crappy English. I love Groo when he is around for a couple of panels.
Spike was very well written, not only his lines but also his behavior. Kuddos for Brian. And another reason to like the comics; Connor is able to carry Angel. I can't imagine Vincent Kartheiser walking around with David Boreanaz.
So Gunn wants to use Illyria timeslips. And I think that he planned to free Illyria from Fred's body to increase her power. I would love to see what happens there, it's interesting to see those former good guys in this state. And Illyria caring about the dragon was nice.
I actually hoped that the preview would show us how they save Angel, but I guess that we've to wait some days for that. I love the Angel voice over, Angel has a very typical style of thinking/talking that I like a lot as voice over.
yeah, I'm done talking now. :p
XavierZane
18-11-08, 08:06 PM
So awesome! I never liked Groo all that much on the show, but I'm loving every line he has in the comics. I hope he joins Team Angel for Aftermath.
Spike was spot on, and I loved how Angel knows Spike so well. "Spider told me I was just being catty!" If I didn't already like Spider/Spike that line would have won me over. :lol:
Can't wait to get my hands on this tomorrow. I really hope I get the Illyria cover.
Instead of incense (wtf?) Spike should have included a joint in his requests for something to smoke. It makes tons more sense, and it much funnier.
The voice in the second panel of the second page is Groo right? I'm confused because it looks like one of Spike's girls gets killed.
---edit---
I can! The speech balloon is coming from the wrong character, probably my fault. It's supposed to be a teeny groo on his steed flying over the hotel and being surrounded by the black dragons that says it, but it's mistakingly eminating from the miscellaneous demon character who's stabbing one of the Spikettes in the foreground of the panel. Sorry bout the confusion!
(I love his signature "they talk about me in chatty rooms" :roll:)
------------------------------
And Brian makes me nervous with posts like this one;
Big stuff happens, and I want to know if people are leaning towards "oh no he didn't" or "Oh man that's epic".
I really hope that I will like it, because until now I loved almost every issue and the story and I would be sad if something happens that will destroy the story for me.
(I love his signature "they talk about me in chatty rooms" :roll:)
The banner was actually made by Slayalive member Wyndam as a present to Mooney, but the Angel quote was all Mooney. It's apparently one of his favorite funny moments in the show. :)
By the way, I love how wonderfully nice he is about this - "Sorry about the confusion!". Very classy and generous of him to just say, 'my mistake, sorry guys'. All told, Stephen Mooney is just awesome, his art and the guy himself. It's that funny phenomenon in the Whedonverse where you become a fan of the creators at all levels. Great guy.
The banner was actually made by Slayalive member Wyndam as a present to Mooney, but the Angel quote was all Mooney. It's apparently one of his favorite funny moments in the show. :)
By the way, I love how wonderfully nice he is about this - "Sorry about the confusion!". Very classy and generous of him to just say, 'my mistake, sorry guys'. All told, Stephen Mooney is just awesome, his art and the guy himself. It's that funny phenomenon in the Whedonverse where you become a fan of the creators at all levels. Great guy.
Yeah, he seems like a great guy. And if I saw it right, a great guy who celebrates his birthday today. So; congrats Stephen!
So issue 14 is out, I can't wait to read to issue. Of course I already read all the spoilers I could find *shakes head*, still reading the issue is always the best part.
Nostalgia
20-11-08, 04:38 AM
Wow.
Hi, I'm Chris.. in case you don't recognize me. I was a strong participating member of BuffyWorld into BuffyForums for a long time. I got caught up with things, and got addicted to the world of the forum.. and decided to take a break. I came back for a few momentary lapses, and even peaked my head in once or twice after that.. but I have not posted for a very, very long time now. However, I still have been following this site and look at it almost every day. Bar, it's solely for season 8 and After the Fall, nonetheless.. I love the discussions that get talked about here, and it's my easiest way for dates and information about the continued series' :).
However, upon finishing "After the Fall: Issue 15," I realized something. This issue is so friggin' good, that I will have to at least post one more time, in order to stress how amazing this issue was.
Wow, first of all.. I have to say that this has to be without a doubt THE best issue written of any of the two continued series. The art, the scenes, the story, the dialogue, everything was keen and perfectly written, and fell in piece exactly where they should have. The climactic ending was absolutely perfect, and Brian did something that got himself out of the worst situation possible: He pleased the worriers of Angel becoming a vampire, and pleased the worriers of a simple resurrection at the same time. His use of the "jigsaw falling into place" effect worked astonishingly.. After reading it again, the hints at the beginning like "they always want him," are some of the best foreshadowing in the entire series. I would actually put this issue up there in my top 10 Angel episodes, and although it is a comic, I am not afraid to say that it beats out almost 90% of the televised portion of the series. I initially was upset about the idea that Illyria could become the enemy, since I love the character so much.. but after reading how it happened.. it worked perfectly. She tried to be evil, and she didn't fit in. She tried to be Fred, and she didn't fit in. She is absolutely sick of existence. I think the reason I love this issue so much is because I feel like this is "EXACTLY" what would have happened if there was a movie or a sixth season, to the tee. The facial expressions were amazing too.. so many good ones, to Gunn's final reaction, to Spike's vamp face. I literally felt like I was watching the show in fact, almost to the point where I couldn't believe a comic could be this well written. Brian Lynch, I commend you on your amazing work so far, especially with this very special issue.
Favorite moments:
- I have to love Angel's face upon walking towards Gunn with a stake, and his quote before, "Brilliant. Take a break from killing one friend to figure out how to kill another."
- Gunn's reaction at the end of the issue. Man, he really has become quite the misanthrope I might say. He just can't stand living knowing he is a vampire and the fact that his best friend had "left him to die." Very Willow season-sixish', except a lot more selfish.
- The bringing back of George, see guys? He really did have a purpose!! :)
- The white space.
- How badass was Illyria's transformation? I mean, we're talking Mayor "Graduation," times like 10!
P.S.- Anyone wanna bet Brian threw in Angel's "Once again, Spike and I have the same idea-- --at the same time" quote to save Spike lovers' asses? Thank you so much Brian!!! :roll::roll::p:2party:
sueworld
20-11-08, 12:44 PM
Well I've read it, and I wasn't going to 'put my two pennies worth in' until the end of this series, but...I felt I just had to step in at this point and say I'm really, really surprised that Spike would offered to vamp Angel like that.
In fact I'm astonished that nobody's picked up on this so far in their reviews as it's so out of character. Especially after the events of Spike After the Fall. Seeing Spikes scenes in this you'd think that none of that had ever happened, or that he had been too stupid to have learnt from it.
Even under their 'dire' circumstances I'm afraid I don't think Spike would even suggest doing something like that. Spike above all people would know what that meant. Look at Spikes history with his mother, and lord of all people saying that 'fighting alongside Angelus wasn't so bad as long as you watch your back" What?!! Is he serious?
I know that this isn't Spikes comic, so I was prepared to see him stuck firmly back into 'annoying/smug/comedy relief mode', but after Spike After the Fall, it still felt like waste of a character really.
So poor old Fred really is dead then? Thats a shame.
Once again it was Gunn that stole the 'show' for me. Brian writes him extremely well and all his 'scenes' were riveting. I'm looking forward to seeing how they finish his arc and the story in general.
I'll have to go back and read it all again now.
I've not read the issue yet, but it is possible that;
Spike was panicking? That he prefers to have Angelus back than lose Angel forever?
sueworld
20-11-08, 01:17 PM
Nah. Spikes been through worse. I can't see him panicking over this. Spike as a souled vamp would understand more then anyone else what it would mean to contemplate doing something like that. To offer it up so readily seems incredibly out of character to me at least.
It seems like the Spike from After the Fall has been replaced with his stupider half brother. :s
I'm not sure;
I can see how losing Angel must be a awful thing for Spike. Angel is maybe not his favourite person in the world, but he really important for Spike. I always believed that you could see Spike & Angel as brothers, they annoy eachother but nobody else should touch the other. And in that light; Angel was almost dead and Spike's plan to save him didn't work (I assume that he sugested it after they found out that the room didn't work?), I can see him sugesting it in the moment because he couldn't find another way to keep Angel in this world. Maybe it wasn't even a real idea, more a desperate attemped to do or think about something.
But of course I should read it first before I can say much about this. :P Maybe I picture it totally wrong, I'll come back on this issue when I did read it.
Here's my review!
And the verdict iiiiis: "Oh man, that's epic". (IDW regulars will get the reference.)
I can only imagine how much more epic the ending would have been if we hadn't gotten those spoilery covers with Illyria's true form months back... but even so, there's a silver lining to our pre-spoiled condition, which is that the sheer originality of the storyline shines through. I browse all the main Buffy forums (and a few minor ones), so I'd heard speculation after speculation based on the aforementioned covers -- Fred would be restored to her body through the Resurrection Room and inadvertently release Illyria, Wesley had made an agreement about Fred with the Senior Partners that would come to fruition here, the cast would have to make a choice between Illyria and Fred, etc. -- and they were all off the mark. Needless to say I like Brian's version better, not least because it gave us one of the best Wesley/Illyria scenes in canon...
"There you are."
"Fred -"
"I tried, Wesley. I tried to be."
"I know you did."
"I don't think... I don't think she's here."
It's no secret that the Wesley/Illyria relationship tugs at my heartstrings like no other Buffyverse 'ship save Spike/Buffy... and I actually got a little teary here, which is very rare for me. (Brian, you weren't kidding when you said that Wesley and Illyria had more Big Moments to come.) I'm extremely glad that the Spike: After the Fall Issue #4 revelation about Illyria still holds true, and that it was addressed in an equally (if not more) emotional scene here. That these Fred-centric time-skips were a conscious attempt on Illyria's part to recapture what Fred had with Wesley, and perhaps even revive him, is a very organic development of her covert jealousy and longing in Season 5 of Angel, and the perfect icing to my recent Wesley/Illyria marathon. Even non-fans have to acknowledge that this takes Illyria's already-complex characterization to a new, higher level (and, by doing so, takes the plot to a new, higher level). This ups the stakes.
I can only say "thank you". The only complaint anyone can have about the Wesley/Illyria moment is that it should have been longer.
Now, the payoff of that scene suffers a lot from the colourist's insistent pinks and reds, but ignoring that, I'm rather fond of the chaotic, almost surrealistic feel of it all. ("Do you see?!" -- "See - what?") It felt right for the magnitude of the event. Also happy that Betta George is revealed to be more than a "filler" character, for realsies. I'll be interested to see what ammo the mandatory haters will find for their comments now. (I do hope the pacing in the remaining issues won't be as fast as it was in the final scene of this issue, though. It worked well as a one-time thing, but it has the potential of getting annoying, if used more.)
Another highlight of this issue was Spike learning about the Shanshu (shock, nervousness and jealousy all wrapped up in Lynch-quality dialogue and body language), as well as the Gunn/Illyria sequence. Illyria and Gunn have displayed the most interesting changes in the series so far, in my eyes, and that's evident in the panels they share here. Was particularly moved by Illyria's switch from her Fred-mannerisms to her usual self's honor and cold pride ("I enjoyed sparring with that dragon. It came close to being an equal"), Gunn's little speech about masks (his "teeth and Klingon brow mask" versus Illyria's Fred-mask, what a way to put it), and his breath in the time-skip. Another thing that was interesting to me is that he seems to harbour a resentment towards Angel's "Chosen One" title ("They want... well, they want who they always want. The one everybody always wants") -- reminded me of Spike for a second there, with his decades under Angel's shadow and his underdog status re: Shanshu and Buffy alike.
I've come to expect this level of awesomeness from Brian by now, but I was surprised how much I loved Mooney's art in this issue. Is he getting better, or am I getting more used to his style? The only thing I didn't like was his uniform rendition of the conduits (and the colourist is partly to blame for that, too). Still, you can't argue with panels like "I don't want to hear it! ..." (Spike), "I need Illyria" (Gunn), "Her memories haunt me" (Wesley/Illyria-as-Fred), "Charles tried to bring out ..." (Wesley), "That'll work" (Gunn).
Where do we go from here?
No idea, but I at least hope that Illyria survives, that there are no easy "saves" like a pre-Not Fade Away reset, that everything comes with a price, that Wesley and Illyria get more interaction (and I'll join the LiveJournal chorus in wishing for a kiss), that the next issues cut down on the spelling/grammar errors, and that the universe doesn't go kablooie.
Rating: 8.5/10 (might be my third favourite After the Fall issue, after Issue 4 of Spike: After the Fall and Issue 12 of Angel: After the Fall)
sueworld
20-11-08, 03:11 PM
Another highlight of this issue was Spike learning about the Shanshu (shock, nervousness and jealousy all wrapped up in Lynch-quality dialogue and body language),
I have to say in my eyes he came across as a complete self involved tit in most of his reaction scenes. But maybe thats what they were after.
After saying that I thought his first reaction scene to Angels 'condition' rang true. Pity the rest didn't. :lol:
Really? I thought you said you loved his reaction, when you first read it in the preview.
sueworld
20-11-08, 03:15 PM
Read it again. I've altered my post. I first thought you were talking about the later scenes. My bad. :lol:
If you're talking about his Room of Resurrection scene, I kind of agree. (Although I didn't let it affect my enjoyment of the issue, since Spike had a small role in it, anyway.)
sueworld
20-11-08, 03:29 PM
Yes I was and it did for me at least.
Nostalgia
20-11-08, 05:45 PM
Like I said, if we're going to say it's out-of-character for Spike, we have to say it's out of character for Angel.
Don't forget what Angel is thinking as Spike speaks and vamps out..
"Once again, Spike and I have the same idea-- --at the same time"
That right there tells us that Angel wanted Spike to vamp him as well, or at least was considering it. Contrary to what Connor believed, and contrary to what we would believe.
Originally Posted by sueworld
I have to say in my eyes he came across as a complete self involved tit in most of his reaction scenes. But maybe thats what they were after.
I love Spike to death, but when has he not been a self-involved tit in After the Fall? Sure he's learned the importance of saving lives.. but he's still the comic relief of the series. This is old news, imo.
sueworld
20-11-08, 07:04 PM
I love Spike to death, but when has he not been a self-involved tit in After the Fall?
Oh don't get me wrong, Spike can be a right twit sometime, but not that big an arse. :roll:
Spike did go through character development in both the series and in Spike After the Fall. In this edition you'd never had guessed that.
"Quite frankly I think it's because I'm special. The thrice-savior." - Spike in After the Fall #14
Going with the "self-involved twit" description, this declaration surprises me in light of the ending of Spike: After the Fall. All of Spike's character development seemed to suggest (I *thought* I had learned a great lesson) that Spike's bravado of being a hero to rival Angel and Buffy had been slapped down by his epic failure. All the people he tried to save and his failure to properly guide Illyria which led to Jerry's death = epic fail. The grim ending with Spike swearing off "no sodding attachments" spoke to me that he was bitter and hurting about the hero-mantle he tried to wear.
Now for him to cavalierly spout this ego-trip (in light of said EPIC FAILURE) while Angel is busy dying (still) and in incredible pain - yeah, self-involved twit. I just feel like it would have been okay, rather appropriate, for Spike to be grave and serious in this moment. He's not always the comic relief. Spike is often the guy who raises the mirror, calls people out on their failures or bad decisions.
I know both Sue and Enisy still are on-board with the first Spike scene, but this is where I started to get the inkling that Spike was playing in the shallow end of the pool. Regarding the "shock, nervousness and jealousy" reaction, the shock and nervousness are valid reactions to Spike learning this, and jealousy is always connected to any discussion with the shanshu. I still think that Spike (who I view as incredibly perceptive about irony), would have clued into that almost immediately - 'Angel finally got to be human and look what it got him, an excruciating death' perception. I feel like Spike didn't get to be deep or perceptive, just mostly reactionary in his emotions - while still focused on the goal of getting Angel downstairs.
It makes me wonder if Angel is on scene, does Spike always become the goof? Maybe I'm missing something where Spike is showing deeper emotions and thoughts and I'm open to anyone pointing that out - with quotes and a diagram so I can understand it.
During AtS, when Spike reverts to a 12-year old in Angel's presence, Angel is right there with him. I'm thinking 'Cavemen vs. Astronauts' argument here. But it seems now while Spike regresses at times, Angel is still keeping his cool. I'm missing the moments where Angel indulges his jealousy in a petulant way - "Everybody's got a soul now", "It looks like Spike's their new champion" and "It's not about what *I* want!"
Again, I'm guessing this might be an unpopular view. I've been a bit reluctant to even post about this since it seems so against what everyone else feels. If you disagree, please respond and explain why. Some examples or a re-definition of perspective would be appreciated.
Point about Angel, Nostalgia. For my part, I don't think it's out of character for either of them; I just think we didn't get as good a reasoning as we could have in the text, probably due to time/space constraints.
Welcome back, by the way! I've missed youuuuuu! :hug:
sueworld
20-11-08, 10:35 PM
"Quite frankly I think it's because I'm special. The thrice-savior." - Spike
Going with the "self-involved twit" description, this declaration surprises me in light of the ending of Spike: After the Fall. All of Spike's character development seemed to suggest (I *thought* I had learned a great lesson) that Spike's bravado of being a hero to rival Angel and Buffy had been slapped down by his epic failure. Both all the people he tried to save and his failure to properly guide Illyria which led to Jerry's death. The grim ending with Spike swearing off "no sodding attachments" spoke to me that he was bitter and hurting about the hero-mantle he tried to wear.
Now for him to cavalierly spout this ego-trip (in light of said EPIC FAILURE) while Angel is busy dying (still) and in incredible pain - yeah, self-involved twit. I just feel like it would have been okay, rather appropriate for Spike to be grave and serious in this moment. He's not always the comic relief.
I know both Sue and Enisy still are on-board with the first Spike scene, but this is where I started to get the inkling that Spike was playing in the shallow end of the pool. Regarding the "shock, nervousness and jealousy" reaction, the shock and nervousness are valid reactions to Spike learning this, and jealousy is always connected to any discussion with the shanshu. I still think that Spike (who I view as incredibly perceptive about irony), would have clued into that almost immediately - 'Angel finally got to be human and look what it got him, an excruciating death' perception. I feel like Spike didn't get to be deep or perceptive, just mostly reactionary in his emotions - no higher thought processes present.
I hope you've told Brian this. I'm glad you thought the characterization was a bit off too. So far that makes three of us so far. :lol:
t makes me wonder if Angel is on scene, does Spike always become the goof? Maybe I'm missing something where Spike is showing deeper emotions and thoughts and I'm open to anyone pointing that out - with quotes and a diagram so I can understand it.
No, you're not the only one to spot that. I try and 'fanwank' it away with him regressing in Angels presence back into their former roles when they were the 'fanged four'.
Either that or many male writers just don't see the characters on any other light sadly.
I hope you've told Brian this. I'm glad you thought the characterization was a bit off too. So far that makes three of us so far. :lol:
To be honest, I feel a bit daunted critiquing this where Brian would read it. I'm hands down in love with Spike: After the Fall #4 and his work there (and I was very vocal about it :)), but Spike in the grander scheme of Angel: After the Fall has been slightly disappointing. And personally getting into a debate with the writer over the piece seems like asking for trouble. Like going to a OMWF sing-a-long and yelling, "This episode sucks!" (which it clearly doesn't but I'm imagining an online fandom backlash)
No, you're not the only one to spot that. I try and 'fanwank' it away with him regressing in Angels presence back into their former roles when they were the 'fanged four'.
Either that or many male writers just don't see the characters on any other light sadly.
Surely we can credit Doug Petrie with some sensitive insights into Spike's character. Fool For Love is one of my favorite episodes of the series and IMO the best Spike-centric episode.
Here's something to consider, what are the best Spike-centric stories? I'd say Fool For Love and Spike:After the Fall.
sueworld
21-11-08, 12:26 AM
To be honest, I feel a bit daunted critiquing this where Brian would read it. I'm hands down in love with Spike: After the Fall #4 and his work there (and I was very vocal about it ), but Spike in the grander scheme of Angel: After the Fall has been slightly disappointing.
Well I've told him today what I thought, and it didn't turn into a fight or him bursting into tears If thats what you're worried about. :roll:
I haven't been disappointed in the over all story of AtF, but just some small areas of it, such as some character motivations.
I adore how he's written Gunn. I can't get enough of that. :D
Agreed. I'm definitely satisfied with the overall story. Both Gunn and Connor's characterization have been fantastic.
Well I've told him today what I thought, and it didn't turn into a fight or him bursting into tears If thats what you're worried about. :roll:
Ha! Well, I definitely didn't imagine I'd make Brian cry. It's just very personal critiquing someone's work directly to them, a difficult stance when it seems like so many fans disagree with you. My attempt to express this on Slayalive didn't really lead to an in-depth discussion, more people simply saying "nah, it's in-character, way off-base criticism there". Plus Brian responding he was "very proud" (and he should be proud of his work, great stuff) of that scene made me feel a bit like I was spitting on it with my analysis.
sueworld
21-11-08, 01:04 AM
Well you already know my thoughts on whether Slayeralive is a Spike friendly board, already so I'm not superised to hear that they thought it was in character.
I think that anyone who's more invested in him then your average fan would spot what was wrong with that set-up.
Vampire in Rug
21-11-08, 07:31 AM
I didn't have a problem with Spike wanting to re-vamp Angel to save the day. For starters, they're in hell and Angel is the only one who can get them out. There's an army heading towards the building, possibly to kill everyone inside because Angel is dying. At that point, nobody knew that the army just wanted to use Gunn's machine to heal Angel. Everyone would have been expecting death as punishment for allowing Angel to die. And if that was the case Spike would at least have some sort bargining power if he vamped Angel to fix the situation. Something like: "Look guys, I'm sorry we got your golden boy killed but I've re-sired him so he'll be okay in a couple of hours. Please don't kill us."
Also at the end of the day Spike wouldn't want to lose Angel. He's dealt with Angelus before only this time Spike would be the older, stronger vampire. And if Angelus came back they'd all share a common enemy. Angelus doesn't like W&H either and we've already seen that while the sun of Hel-LA doesn't kill vampires, it certainly makes them uncomfortable. Also there's a chance that Angelus would be conflicted like Lawson was, and not 100% evil. If being sired by a souled vampire leaves the victim with a fragment of a soul, it would give Angelus a small peice of humanity and might make him easier to deal with. Especially if they can figure out a way to put his complete soul back somewhere along the line.
It's all speculation anyway seeing as how that's not what happened. But I have no trouble believing that in the heat of the moment, when fecal matter is hitting the fan, when Angel is dying when he's needed most, Spike might consider siring him.
I agree with what ViR said, and I can see him being a "self-involved tit" to protect himself emotionally. Ignoring whatever you feel and act like you don't care, works sometimes very well. It's what I do when I refuse to be emotional.
And over the whole Angel:ATF story Spike is maybe used as a comic relief, but that's just because there is not much time for him. Right now we need to get out of hell, get Connor (& Nina?) in the team, we need to say goodbye to at least Fred, Wesley & Gunn. That's probably why we got Spike:ATF, because Spike himself had no real game to play in A:ATF.
And about being a tit in the comics; to be honest, Spike is only sweet and caring for some girls (and Connor a bit as well). But in the end he is a tit to every other character. I don't really see theproblem. It would be weird if Spike changed his whole being after 4 issues Spike:ATF because he lost a friend and figured out that being the big leader isn't all that.
sueworld
21-11-08, 11:37 AM
Sorry I really don't see it that way at all.
Yes, ATF isn't his comic, but that doesn't mean that he has to be written as a fool in such important scene such as this one. Thats like saying you expect Spikes character to be exactly the same as it was when he first appeared in School Hard, and is isn't, despite what others might think. Spike learns and adapts. That what he's always done.
But then I actually love the character, so I would say that wouldn't I. :lol:
I think that he did grow, but it's just 2 seasons since he got his soul back. You can't expect big changes, besides it's a character with virtues but also flaws. And growing up doesn't mean that he will lose all his flaws. I think that Brian nailed Spike, his good sides but also his flaws. People aren't computers, they make the same mistake time after time, you can't expect a character to change because he did some new things.
But I guess that we've another view of Spike. I think the he came from far and he is doing very well now. He had more development than Gunn in his first seasons or Lorne.
Vampire in Rug
21-11-08, 06:31 PM
Also, I think Angel is now a vampire. He felt his wrist and claimed to have a pulse but I think he's lying. It wouldn't be the first time he's lied about that sort of thing.
W&H instructed Gunn to build his machine for thier own purposes, surely they'd preffer to turn Angel back to a souled vampire rather than healed human. While the machine was working on Angel he tried to pry loose. Why would he struggle against something that's healing him? His internal dialogue says "As I return to my true form -Illyria is returning to hers."
His "true form"? Anybody in the fandom can tell you Angel's "true form" and it ain't a human. When you think of Angel you think of the vampire with a soul. If the machine is capable of returning Illyria to a more demonic form surely it could do the same for Angel.
Also, from a writers point of view, it's a pain in the ass to turn a human into a souled vampire. You have to go through the "unsouled vampire" stage which is what would have happened if Spike sired Angel. Bringing back Angelus this late in the game is something the story can do without. It would take the focus off the issues at hand and move the focus onto the Angel/Angelus storyline and that's been done to death already. If Mr. Lynch wants to bring back the souled vampire without going through to otherwise required "Angelus" stage, Gunn's machine is the perfect place to do it.
I can see that, Angel has to be a soulled vampire to play a role in their apocalypse ... so it's obvious that they want him to be one. But why did they change him in a human first so they have to set up this all to change him back in a vampire?
sueworld
21-11-08, 06:39 PM
His "true form"? Anybody in the fandom can tell you Angel's "true form" and it ain't a human. When you think of Angel you think of the vampire with a soul. If the machine is capable of returning Illyria to a more demonic form surely it could do the same for Angel.
Give that man a prize! I think you might have hit the nail on the head there. :D
Vampire in Rug
21-11-08, 06:45 PM
I'm guessing they turned Angel human to keep him out of the way. Without his powers he's much less of a threat. I'm guessing they had Gunn build the machine for when they were ready to unleash the apocalypse, they could have Angel back in the game instantly.
Of course W&H weren't ready to turn Angel back to a vampire, they had thier hand forced against thier will. Firstly by Gunn bringing Angel inches from death. Something had to be done about that and it had to be done quickly. Secondly, there's something big blue and nasty stomping around about to unleash and apocalypse of her own. If W&H want to end the world on thier own terms they pretty much have to end the game right now before Illyria does it for them.
That is amazing thinking, I wasn't there yet. So this is it huh? The biggest apocalypse is going to happen. That's epic and I would like to know what Angel's input is. Is he going to stop it? Or make it worse?
Brian shot down that theory just now, alas. But it was very good thinking regardless, Vampire in Rug, and you deserve the rep points. :)
So Angel is still human? Good, I'm still hoping that he ends up human. So for me this is good news.
But I agree, it was a great theory and it did make sense. Actually it made more sense for me than Angel being human. Because why did W&H let Gunn built that magic thing if it only cures Angel. Did they know that he would need it? Or did it more?
sueworld
21-11-08, 07:28 PM
Aww, thats a shame. Great gag though. :D
I was suprised to hear that W&H are really thinking like a business. Talking about money and all. Also, do they hire people? Talking about healing Angel on the cheapest way. I didn't expect that, they are godlike creatures.
And maybe I'm not really smart, but I didn't get the about the gaudy tattoo.
Now that Illyria has been returned to something of her former self, I hope they don't just depower her again. If they intend to keep her around I don't have a problem with her using a more humanoid shell to walk amongst the humans but I don't want her depowered. I'm sick of powerful people having to brung down a peg or two, it'd be nice to see the story of a power creature and all that brings with it, living in a world that isn't hers anymore. She is indifferent enough to people to not help with everything only the big things that threaten her, so its not like she'd be stopping every tiny thing the angel crew has to face.
Plus another thing is,
Isn't Illyria going off to Fallen Angel at some point? So would that mean she survives or will that be another time line?
The "gaudy tattoo" was a fandom shout-out. A lot of fans became interested in what happened to Angel's gryphon tattoo when it disappeared off his back, asking Lynch "where's the tattoo?".
I didn't have a problem with Spike wanting to re-vamp Angel to save the day.
Vampire in Rug, was this in response to the posts Sue and I had about Spike's characterization? Because 'Spike re-vamping Angel' wasn't part of what we were critiquing. If not...
While it's certainly true that Spike played a huge comic relief role during AtS season 5, during the 'people are dying' moments he was very serious. I think that's the main crux for me.
I'm trying to think of scenes where Spike does the flustered and rambling bit. The only ones coming to mind are the "Out for a walk, bitch" scene when Buffy catches him hanging outside her house and during the End of Days when Buffy and Spike have the "shirty" discussion. Anybody else think of other times where he reacts like this?
Plus another thing is,
Isn't Illyria going off to Fallen Angel at some point? So would that mean she survives or will that be another time line?
dinamo, the Illyria-crossover to Fallen Angel takes place during AtS season 5. It's not dependent on the outcome of After the Fall.
Nostalgia
21-11-08, 11:27 PM
Originally Posted by Enisy
Point about Angel, Nostalgia. For my part, I don't think it's out of character for either of them; I just think we didn't get as good a reasoning as we could have in the text, probably due to time/space constraints.
Welcome back, by the way! I've missed youuuuuu!
Thanks Enisy, :) I missed you too!
I'm glad Brian clarified that Angel is now human again. Angel checking his pulse as a trick for us to just "believe" that he is human would be a little too complex for me. Plus, I am very happy he's human again. That makes his character so much more interesting, as well as making Spike more interesting in the process :).
I still don't understand the bashing of Spike's choice, when it was told that Angel was thinking the same exact idea. The entire scene is shown to be a bonding between Angel and Spike, more or less to the fact that they see eye-to-eye almost the entire first half of the issue. They have great semi-bonding moments, and that is another reason I love this issue.
I don't really understand the suprise about Fred being dead. There wasn't an ounce of her left from Angel-After the Fall.. so if someone could explain to me what gave hint to her still being alive, I'd appreciate it :s
Nostalgia, I don't think anyone has been bashing Spike's choice. At least, not on this thread. The criticism has centered more on Spike's comic relief characterization. Were you thinking of a discussion somewhere else?
The "gaudy tattoo" was a fandom shout-out. A lot of fans became interested in what happened to Angel's gryphon tattoo when it disappeared off his back, asking Lynch "where's the tattoo?".
Thanks. :hug:
And the senior partners spend money to remove the tattoo. That's unexpected, but great that Brian put it in the story.
sueworld
22-11-08, 12:36 AM
Nostalgia, I don't think anyone has been bashing Spike's choice. At least, not on this thread. The criticism has centered more on Spike's comic relief characterization. Were you thinking of a discussion somewhere else?
Well I believe I stated on this thread that I didn't think Spike would offer to do that, and I still don't really, even after Brian told me his reasons for it. I now realise Brian's good intentions, but I don't think they came across very well unfortunately. For me at least.
It think I would have accepted it better If the dialog hadn't seemed so overly smug and underpinned with a smug screencap from 'In the Dark' for reference.
Nostalgia
22-11-08, 01:40 AM
What was Brian's reasoning? Anyone have a quote?
In terms of his "comic relief" status, I honestly am fine with him fitting that role. I love Spike, I'd say just as much you guys do.. yet I don't see how it hurts his character in any way. To me, his causes were noble, and just because of a situation in Spike: After the Fall," that doesn't give any reason to why we would think he's changed. I think it'd be very OOC if he were to hold back from thinking that idea.
sueworld
22-11-08, 01:51 AM
Well I told him about some folks saw him as just comic relief in the comic and that he hasn't appeared to have progresed as a character and his response was....
I disagree, of course. Spike makes jokes but it's a defense mechanism.
Eh, can't please'em all.
I just wish that viewpoint were clarified, showing examples of how he'd progressed. It's an interesting point, the line about using jokes as a defense mechanism. I've often found that kind of humor to be more true of Xander. Where as Spike's humor lent itself more towards mocking others or showing how they were dissembling. Spike's humor (to me) often held more judgment of others rather than using it to deflect attention from himself at a weak moment.
For instance, this line: "Poor Watcher. Did your life flash before your eyes? Cuppa tea, cuppa tea, almost got shagged, cuppa tea."
Another moment where I found Spike particularly hilarious was when everyone kept forgetting that Ben was Glory and Glory was Ben - "Is everyone here completely stoned?" And later on when Xander forgets about Glory/Ben in the hospital and Spike says, "This is gonna be worth it." SLAP! Then frustratedly, "One more time, from the top..."
Does Spike use humor as a defense mechanism or as a way of aggravating others?
I think he uses humor as a way to instigate a reaction from those around him, pushing their buttons either to piss them off or comfort them. An example of the latter: "You want me to take them out? Give me a hell of a headache, but I could probably thin the herd a little. [Buffy smiles] Knew I could get a grin." That Spike uses his humor deliberately to affect others, that it's a proactive (even provocative) action rather than a defensive one.
Anyone care to play devil's advocate?
I think that we should look to the situation where he makes the joke. You can't expect hat a soulless Spike reacts the same as a soulled Spike. Especially because soulled Spike has more emotions.
As a soulled vampire, he had to deal with one big loss on tv; Fred's dead. And what did we saw him do? We saw Spike talking and joking about bottles with alcohol after they couldn't safe Fred. Sometimes he was serious in that conversation ... but I think that Spike talking about alcohol was part of his own defense, to lighten up the situation.
Also possible could be his remark when Gunn was losing lots of blood;
"You're supposed to wear the red stuff on the inside, Charlie boy."
But I'm a bit on the fence about that one.
Point is, soulled Spike was not often in the situation he was in issue 14. One of the most important people in his life was almost dead and he had no idea how to deal with that.
ThePoet's<3
22-11-08, 07:10 PM
See - now as a Spike fan had no problem with his character wanting to revamp Angel. It just sounded like an obvious choice as well as a role reversal the writers *might* want to explore. Angel (through Drusilla) made Spike and now Spike makes Angel. There is still enouogh of the old rivalry between the two for this to happen.
The thing I notice more is that the character growth Spike develops is when he isn't near Angel. However, when he's around Angel he becomes comic relief and quite insecure. So, does this tell us something about the character and its growth or does this tell us something about the writers? :)
I mean this has been ongoing since the Spike character left Buffy! My complaint at first was where was the sensitivity he seemed to find in Buffy Season 7 when he made the journey to Angel Season 5? As well as when he left S5 to the comic?
So I wonder if this is Lynch's purpose? Or which way DOES he see Spike? Hero? Loner? Comic relief?
I also thought "The moment" was handled fairly well - cute humor with the "Spider thought I was just being Catty". But again - it held an important impactful point when Spike says he doesn't want to know about the Shanshu. What is he fighting for then? He's Angel at the moment of decision - "What does a vampire with a soul do?"
But the Angel "Insights" were what I thought were more interesting - "He must be out of cigarettes." I mean that whole exchange was in and of its self pretty revealing of both characters. Spike was nervous about the situation, he was insecure, it hurt his feelings that Angel had become human and not he - and then even worse he learns he's not going to Shanshu either. I thought it was interesting how much Angel knew his thoughts so well...
It may have been the emotion needed for Spike to revamp Angel. I don't believe Spike's character has evolved beyond wanting to be the Vampire who shanshu'ed. I think he still wanted that more than anything.
Wonder if Lynch will use this moment to either send Spike out on his own -Spike: Aftermath - or another comic series for him to play hero on his own? I would LOVE the latter!
Well I told him about some folks saw him as just comic relief in the comic and that he hasn't appeared to have progresed as a character and his response was....
"I disagree, of course. Spike makes jokes but it's a defense mechanism."
Eh, can't please'em all.
I just wish that viewpoint were clarified, showing examples of how he'd progressed. It's an interesting point, the line about using jokes as a defense mechanism. I've often found that kind of humor to be more true of Xander. Where as Spike's humor lent itself more towards mocking others or showing how they were dissembling. Spike's humor (to me) often held more judgment of others rather than using it to deflect attention from himself at a weak moment.
For instance, this line: "Poor Watcher. Did your life flash before your eyes? Cuppa tea, cuppa tea, almost got shagged, cuppa tea."
Another moment where I found Spike particularly hilarious was when everyone kept forgetting that Ben was Glory and Glory was Ben - "Is everyone here completely stoned?" And later on when Xander forgets about Glory/Ben in the hospital and Spike says, "This is gonna be worth it." SLAP! Then frustratedly, "One more time, from the top..."
Does Spike use humor as a defense mechanism or as a way of aggravating others?
I think he uses humor as a way to instigate a reaction from those around him, pushing their buttons either to piss them off or comfort them. An example of the latter: "You want me to take them out? Give me a hell of a headache, but I could probably thin the herd a little. [Buffy smiles] Knew I could get a grin." That Spike uses his humor deliberately to affect others, that it's a proactive (even provocative) action rather than a defensive one.
Anyone care to play devil's advocate?
I would still say it is a way to deflect. Although his humor does have "points" it's a way of turning judgment towards others. "And you say I'm the nasty vampire - what's your excuse?" kinda thing.
However, I do see most of Lynch's moments as his Spike's self-defense. It seems when Spike is on his own he makes better decisions. When he's around Angel he becomes his little vampire brother.
OKAY - now other stuff about this issue -
The Wesley/Illyria moment was very touching and I agree with Enisy I wish it could have been longer. Again, a tragic ending for such a tragic 'Ship.
And the morph of Illyria into her true self - well that was just amazing for a comic!
And did I just miss this - or is Groo's horse also named Cordelia? How sweet that the two men who loved Cordy the most named their flying steeds after her! :lol: And I was holding out that Cordy the Dragon wasn't dead...oh well...:(
But the Angel "Insights" were what I thought were more interesting - "He must be out of cigarettes." I mean that whole exchange was in and of its self pretty revealing of both characters. Spike was nervous about the situation, he was insecure, it hurt his feelings that Angel had become human and not he - and then even worse he learns he's not going to Shanshu either.
He doesn't know that the Shanshu is not for him; he stopped Wesley from telling him whom it's meant for.
hawkedup
23-11-08, 09:41 PM
A) Spike didn't come out on his own until he joined the cast of Angel (when he came out from under the Buffy shadow), B) Spike almost always uses humor to deal with serious situation, there are hundreds of examples including his burning to a crisp to save Sunnydale, Gunn in the alley, befriending Illyria much easier than anyone else in the group, comforting Wesley after he thought he had killed his father, etc, C) all the characters act differently when around certain characters and Spike does have younger sibling syndrome when it comes to Angel, and D) who in that situation could have provided the comic relief other than Spike? You have to remember that he is one step behind everyone else at that moment and has to deal with figuring everything out at the same time.
I want to draw attention to "...befriending Illyria much easier than anyone else in the group..." He may have been sad that Fred died, but he got over it a lot sooner than anyone else in the group. Remember Angel's words, "It all started with a girl."
befriending Illyria much easier than anyone else in the group,
This brings up a question for me. Spike clearly states in AtS to Illyria that he *knows* that Illyria isn't Fred, going on to explain that Illyria even smells different. That's why he isn't bothered being around her, he knows Illyria is an entirely different being. This is the reason why Spike is able to befriend Illyria, he clearly delineates between the two beings. He accepts Fred is gone.
In After the Fall (most specifically in First Night and Spike:AtF), there is a deliberate effort made so that Spike appears confused about whether Fred is still within Illyria. Enisy, I recall you remarking in a review that Spike was "in denial" about Fred being gone. But we learn in AtS that he had already accepted this.
Thoughts?
It seems like a pretty fair contradiction in Spike's characterization and I'm not sure if it's explained where this regression/denial attitude justifiably comes from. Normally, you don't cycle back to the denial stage of grieving, if you catch my drift. ;) I'm wondering if Spike regresses in this attitude to serve the 'Fred is back, no she isn't' mystery of the first half of A:AtF and S:AtF. Again, I'm beginning to suspect the approach being 'how does Spike serve the story' rather than 'how does Spike naturally react/grow/regress in these story contraints'.
Maybe he was hoping that hell would change things? Hell is a weird place. Did Spike know that her soul was destroyed? Is it possible that he thought that her soul was around in hell? That in combination with being in denial and wanting her back could make him think that she was maybe there.
But it's one of the things I've a bit of a problem with as well, but I had a big problem with the 'Is it Fred?' story and I'm happy that it wasn't Fred. For me it ws very clear that Fred couldn't return because he soul was destroyed and the Fred we saw in ATF looked more like Illyria's view of Fred than the real Fred. A bit too whiney and weak. Which made me confused that so many fans (and characters) believed that it could be Fred.
Maybe he was hoping that hell would change things? Hell is a weird place. Did Spike know that her soul was destroyed? Is it possible that he thought that her soul was around in hell? That in combination with being in denial and wanting her back could make him think that she was maybe there.
That's a good point. Though it seems like Spike's attitude is shaped the instant they flash over to Hell-A and he sees Fred in First Night. Maybe the change to hell was enough to counteract his earlier certainty that Fred was gone.
Or are we meant to believe that Spike always knew that Fred was gone? I'm not exactly sure where Spike realizes that it's just Illyria. Maybe he's acting so tenderly to Illyria because she's wonked out emotionally and he has to be the caretaker to another somewhat crazy demon. All I can say is that on the initial reading, Spike's behavior led a lot of fans to believe it was Fred. Was it a deliberate mislead? Yeah, I think so.
But it's one of the things I've a bit of a problem with as well, but I had a big problem with the 'Is it Fred?' story and I'm happy that it wasn't Fred. For me it ws very clear that Fred couldn't return because he soul was destroyed and the Fred we saw in ATF looked more like Illyria's view of Fred than the real Fred. A bit to whiney and weak. Which made me confused that so many fans (and characters) believed that it could be Fred.
Well, my suspecting it was Fred came from two main areas: my hope that she'd return and Spike acting like it was her. I agree that the Fred we were shown seemed "more like Illyria's view of Fred".
ThePoet's<3
24-11-08, 07:17 AM
He doesn't know that the Shanshu is not for him; he stopped Wesley from telling him whom it's meant for.
Don't you think he already knows, Enisy? :( I think he does or he wouldn't have behaved the way he did when finding out Angel was human. But I will hold out hope as long as he does...:)
Nostalgia
24-11-08, 08:37 AM
Question:
So, is the Shanshu Prophecy corrupt now? Is it not for good, like we had assumed the entire first 7 seasons of Buffy as well as 5 seasons of Angel? I am confused, because Wesley states that "we know what it does now.." So is it meant for Angel to become evil? I am just plain confoosed :err:
In After the Fall (most specifically in First Night and Spike:AtF), there is a deliberate effort made so that Spike appears confused about whether Fred is still within Illyria. Enisy, I recall you remarking in a review that Spike was "in denial" about Fred being gone. But we learn in AtS that he had already accepted this.
Thoughts?
It seems like a pretty fair contradiction in Spike's characterization and I'm not sure if it's explained where this regression/denial attitude justifiably comes from. Normally, you don't cycle back to the denial stage of grieving, if you catch my drift.
This is what I said on IDW a little less than a month ago:
I'll grant you that, on its own merit, his denial here doesn't make much sense, given the way he's dealt with comparable past situations. ("You know, if we want [the Buffybot] to be exactly --" ... "She'll never be exactly." and "I told you to make her stop doing that." -- in contrast to Dawn, who tried to lose herself in the fantasy.)
Buuuuut I take it back to his guilt about failing to save Dawn, failing to save Buffy, and failing to save Fred in "A Hole in the World", and then it clicks better.
Very interesting and very in-character that Wesley is the realist in this case, by the way, what with his speech about how "the first lesson a watcher learns is to separate truth from illusion". (Also, I think he really just knows Fred and Illyria better than Spike does.)
But I also very much agree with this assessment:
I'm wondering if Spike regresses in this attitude to serve the 'Fred is back, no she isn't' mystery of the first half of A:AtF and S:AtF. Again, I'm beginning to suspect the approach being 'how does Spike serve the story' rather than 'how does Spike naturally react/grow/regress in these story contraints'.
Yeeeeep. I understand why Brian went that way, because the plot had to move forward somehow, but the Spike-Frillyria storyline in general does seem a bit like it was "imposed" on the characters, rather than developing organically from their Season 5 relationship (see Joss's whitewater-rafting analogy).
Spike: After the Fall was so damn good that I can afford to overlook that little detail, though. :)
It was so damn good. Well, now I'm all confused 'cause you've distracted me with my love of Spike: After the Fall. Perhaps I'll let this train of thought leave the station on that very positive note. Damn, I do love that 4-issue mini-series. It's nigh on perfect for me.
Wait - what's Joss' whitewater rafting analogy? Do tell.
Joss Whedon: TV's like whitewater rafting: Without rocks, there wouldn't be rapids, and it wouldn't be as much fun. Rolling with it gave us Tara and Willow coming out. It gave us Spike falling in love with Buffy. Rolling with it found out that Anya and Andrew were comic geniuses. You plan your ideas and themes, and then you let the rest form naturally, and then it feels real. It doesn't feel like you're imposing something on everybody.
-- Which I felt didn't always apply for the Spike/Fred-Illyria storyline in Spike: After the Fall, but even so, the good in that series by far outweighs the not-so-good.
I have to say, this whole discussion for me (spanning multiple forums, as some of you know) has been very fascinating. It just goes to show how nuanced Spike's character truly is and how well the fans understand him. To pseudo-borrow a phrase from enisy, there seems to be an infinite amount of "story left in him".
I can imagine Spike adapting and growing throughout many future generations, more adventures to come, perhaps mostly because his character is predominantly defined by his passion. Passion for life, for action, for love. His innate energy creates so many possibilities. Spike in Timbuktu? Sure! Why not? Spike rescuing Andrew from an apocalyptic attack at SDCC? Yep, it happens in 2010.
sueworld
24-11-08, 03:01 PM
The key word here to describe Spikes character is 'flexible'. His character has has the ability to adapt to almost everything thats thrown at him, and then some. He works well with many other characters too given half the chance.
Is it any wonder then that in fanfic circles he's called 'the little black dress' of the Buffyverse, in that he goes well with everyone. :lol:
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