Things you can't forgive....or can but not easily

[Sassy]

We had a thread like this back on BW, although I think it was for only Buffy. What are some thing that BTVS, ATS, and/or Firefly characters did that you just can't forgive?

Buffy


The AR, I just can't forgive that.
Buffy going to Spike, instead of her friends in S7. They had been there with/for her for seven years. Instead of talking to them she goes to Spike. What about her friends, the ones that had been there for her?
Angelus' many bad deeds, i.e. arranging Jenny's body, m,aking Dru insane. I don't blame Angel for it, just Angelus. Granted these things that Angelus did is what made him interesting.


Angel


Wes not telling Angel and the rest about the phrophsey, kidnapping Conner.
Angel deserting AI, becoming completely obsessed with Darla.


Firefly
(I haven't seen the movie, Serenity. So I can't say anything about that.)


Jayne turning on the crew. Him trying to turn in River and Simon, they are suppossed to be part of his crew.

[SarahRegi]

We had a thread like this back on BW, although I think it was for only Buffy. What are some thing that BTVS, ATS, and/or Firefly characters did that you just can't forgive?

Buffy


The AR, I just can't forgive that.
Buffy going to Spike, instead of her friends in S7. They had been there with/for her for seven years. Instead of talking to them she goes to Spike. What about her friends, the ones that had been there for her?
Angelus' many bad deeds, i.e. arranging Jenny's body, m,aking Dru insane. I don't blame Angel for it, just Angelus. Granted these things that Angelus did is what made him interesting.


what part specifically are you talking about about Buffy not going to her friends in s7?

i for one hated the fact when her friends ganged up on her and metaphorically kicked her out of her own house. and it is Spike who was the only one that was really there for her when she needed it.

i also hate when in s3 i think it is, that when she comes back from LA to Sunnydale, her mom makes a welcome home party with all her friends and they invite the whole city and they all ignore her. then Xander butts in the discussion that Buffy and her mom are having. instead of asking her what's wrong with you, why did you leave? they just go at her face accussing her of what a bad friend she was for not telling them goodbye. they didn't even bother to think of her, of what she was feeling. they just thought of themselves, like if they were the victims.

[Sassy]

what part specifically are you talking about about Buffy not going to her friends in s7?

i for one hated the fact when her friends ganged up on her and metaphorically kicked her out of her own house. and it is Spike who was the only one that was really there for her when she needed it.

I don't like the whole kicking out thing either, and you are right: Spike is the only one who was there for at that point. I was refering to her pretty much ignoring her friends in favor of Spike, even as early as the first half of the season. I mean don't get me wrong, Buffy is my favorite character but she should have went to her friends.

i also hate when in s3 i think it is, that when she comes back from LA to Sunnydale, her mom makes a welcome home party with all her friends and they invite the whole city and they all ignore her. then Xander butts in the discussion that Buffy and her mom are having. instead of asking her what's wrong with you, why did you leave? they just go at her face accussing her of what a bad friend she was for not telling them goodbye. they didn't even bother to think of her, of what she was feeling. they just thought of themselves, like if they were the victims.

I forgot about that. They shouldn't have started the thing infront of everybody, or invited anyone out of the Scoobies for that matter. They should have talked to her, found out what all the reasons were for her running away.

[KingofCretins]

See, I'm pretty close to being unable to forgive Buffy running away in the first place, and think that Joyce and the Scoobies were justified and correct in their arguments with her.

Buffy was ridiculously out of line when she said that Spike was the only one who'd had her back. Absolutely untrue, it's not even a two-sided argument.

I'll try to think of stuff on the others and not just rip on Buffy.

[Dorian's Kitten]

I don't like the whole kicking out thing either, and you are right: Spike is the only one who was there for at that point. I was refering to her pretty much ignoring her friends in favor of Spike, even as early as the first half of the season. I mean don't get me wrong, Buffy is my favorite character but she should have went to her friends.


I don't think she was ignoring them. I think that the reality was that Spike was a bit needy at that time and she was trying to do right there, considering that he was really trying. AND she was doing her job, crazy vampire+soul=needs supervision

I also think that she was under a lot of pressure-moving all those people into her house seriously took away her ability to be alone and process everything. She maybe needed quiet, alone time. Well, hanging with Spike is probably about as close as she was going to get. He didn't ask for anything, he didn't push his ideas, he just listened and supported.

The thing that I have had the hardest time with: Giles plotting to kill Spike behind her back. Not because of the injustice to Spike, who was and had been helping, but because of the disrespect it showed to Buffy. He left her during season six, told her she didn't need him anymore that she needed to do these things for herself (including be the slayer and raise a teenager-cause that's a reasonable request for a twenty-year old). (Ok-maybe I'm still a bit irritated by that choice too.) But then he showed no respect in her decisions. She was following her instincts, just like he had taught her to do. He can't have it both ways.

[Salvation]

-Xander leaving Anya at the alter ,this was a huge mistake from him & i cant forgive him til this day.
-Xander not telling Buffy about what Willow told him so.
-Anya cheating on Xander with Spike.
-The Gang Kicking Buffy out of her own house.
-Buffy using Spike just to feel anything instead of talking about it with her friends.
-Faith for trying to kill Angel.
-Angel for taking over W&H while he said over & over again that will never happen.

[Nikki]

So many things I can't forgive.. where to start?

I think I'll just list my top ones! :D

Angel wiping the gang's minds of everything that happened around Conor when he took over Wolfram and Hart. He had no right to do that to the people who would die for him. It really is a version of mind rape.

Same with Willow using that on Tara and then again Buffy. You don't fix things by making people forget about them. I feel less strongly about Willow trying it though, mostly because I don't think she knew better and the addiction to magick is like an addiction to drugs, complete loss of yourself.

Xander leaving Anya at the alter Biggest mistake of his life. At least he comes to realise it, but he shouldn't have made it in the first place. It's classic Joss to rip something apart in the most painful way. I get Xander being scared, everyone has doubts, but when you live together and share everything marriage doesn't change anything! /sigh

Buffy not killing Dawn in the Gift I get Dawn is her last family member and that she didn't ask to be the key, but sacrificing yourself for her leaves the world in real trouble. Who is gonna save Dawn from the next apcolaypse? Buffy must have known that the slayer line now already considered her dead. Yes I get it was a great dramatic ending, but I hated that she did that. And one of my favourite moments is in season 7 when she admits if she had to do it again she'd let Dawn die! This unforgiveable could be helped by the fact that I hate Dawn, every second of her on screen is one second too long!!!

Buffy being kicked out in season 7 was pretty horrible. Especially how just a few episodes earlier Xander had given this lovely speech on how they should all trust her as she's laid down her life twice to save the world etc. I felt quite pleased when Buffy ended up getting the Sycth and Faith led the potentials into a bomb :D

Sorry I have to respond to this..


-Anya cheating on Xander with Spike.


You can't be mad about that.. when someone dumps you on your wedding day you aren't with them anymore, therefore sex with someone else isn't cheating. Anya says it best 'You left me at the alter, I don't owe you anything'

If someone left me at the altar I'd probably kill their family so I think Xander got off easier than he should have done for that!

[KingofCretins]

I agree with Nikki about Anya and Spike -- leaving someone at the altar constitutes a break-up. And, while it was completely gross, just like it was for Buffy, because it's Spike, it wasn't actually cheating.

However... was leaving Anya at the altar the wrong thing to do? "Selfless" raised a pretty substantial issue in their relationship. Anya admits explicitly that she just clung to whatever came along. She was completely codependent with Xander and used him to define herself. Is that something a marriage can be sustained by? I honestly don't know if they were as 'in love' with each other as they thought.

I can't see arguing for Buffy killing Dawn. She was literally programmed to protect her, after all. I found it more annoying that they gave Buffy this theretofore unheard of moral relativism in Season 7 than that she wouldn't kill Dawn in Season 5.

[Nikki]

I agree with Nikki about Anya and Spike -- leaving someone at the altar constitutes a break-up. And, while it was completely gross, just like it was for Buffy, because it's Spike, it wasn't actually cheating.I'd forgotten what it feels like when someone agrees with me! :D Thanks!

And I wouldn't say sleeping with Spike is gross though.. have you seen that body?! ;) :D

However... was leaving Anya at the altar the wrong thing to do? "Selfless" raised a pretty substantial issue in their relationship. Anya admits explicitly that she just clung to whatever came along. She was completely codependent with Xander and used him to define herself. Is that something a marriage can be sustained by? I honestly don't know if they were as 'in love' with each other as they thought.Xander and Anya breaking up is one thing, but leaving her at the altar is another.. he couldn't have figured out they were wrong for each other before she put the white dress on?

But to your point about Anya/Xander's relationship. I don't think it is a bad thing if you cling to something/someone and then it grows into much more. If you do love that person and love who that person makes you then I think that's what is important. I do think they had a good relationship considering Anya is a 1000 year old ex-demon and Xander is Xander. No relationship is perfect but they did seem to be happy and working well together which is why I found the break up at the altar a real shock.

But ok off topic now. Bad me!

[Dorian's Kitten]

I can't see arguing for Buffy killing Dawn. She was literally programmed to protect her, after all. I found it more annoying that they gave Buffy this theretofore unheard of moral relativism in Season 7 than that she wouldn't kill Dawn in Season 5.

I'll give it a shot. Sacrificing herself was the easier way out. Buffy herself pointed out that the hardest thing in life was living it. Instead of dealing with the pain of losing her sister, she chose to die. Understandable certainly, it is a choice no one should have to make-but she left the world vulnerable so that she wouldn't have to deal with a world without Dawn. Also I'll point out that in the long run one would have to question what kind of life Dawn would have had with her sister dead. The gang was definitely trying, but it would seem inevitable for them to begin getting injured and killed more often. And we learned just the next season that Spike's chip would eventually kill him, taking out her super-strong babysitter/friend.

While I do think it was forgivable, I can see it as strongly questionable.

[Cori]

So many things I can't forgive.. where to start?

I think I'll just list my top ones! :D

Angel wiping the gang's minds of everything that happened around Conor when he took over Wolfram and Hart. He had no right to do that to the people who would die for him. It really is a version of mind rape.

Same with Willow using that on Tara and then again Buffy. You don't fix things by making people forget about them. I feel less strongly about Willow trying it though, mostly because I don't think she knew better and the addiction to magick is like an addiction to drugs, complete loss of yourself.

I completely agree. Angel's motives may have been honorable but he had no right whatsoever to do this to his friends.

Xander leaving Anya at the alter Biggest mistake of his life. At least he comes to realise it, but he shouldn't have made it in the first place. It's classic Joss to rip something apart in the most painful way. I get Xander being scared, everyone has doubts, but when you live together and share everything marriage doesn't change anything! /sigh

Again I agree. I think being left at the altar is one of the worst things that can happen to a woman and I really hate that Xander put Anya through this ordeal. :down: If he had such doubts about their marriage, he had plenty of time so say something earlier and not at the last possible moment. :rolleyes:

Buffy being kicked out in season 7 was pretty horrible. Especially how just a few episodes earlier Xander had given this lovely speech on how they should all trust her as she's laid down her life twice to save the world etc. I felt quite pleased when Buffy ended up getting the Sycth and Faith led the potentials into a bomb :D

That's one of the things I'm least likely to forgive ever. :mad: I hated how her alleged friends treated Buffy in this situation. Dawn, the ungrateful brat who wouldn't even be alive if it weren't for Buffy, takes the cake with her "this is my house too". :down: I always disliked Dawn but I did start to tolerate her a bit better in season 7 and then she does something like this!

Another thing that I find hard to forgive:

Xander's judgmental and self-righteous behaviour towards Buffy when it comes to her vamp boyfriends

I have never liked Xander but when he is being all jealous of Angel and/or Spike and tries to put Buffy down for dating them, all in this judgmental tone of voice, then I strongly dislike him! It's none of his business if Buffy feels like dating vamps! It's the whole Xander's male ego being threatened because Buffy would rather be with vampires than with a normal guy like him that really ticks me off.

[SarahRegi]

Another thing that I find hard to forgive:

Xander's judgmental and self-righteous behaviour towards Buffy when it comes to her vamp boyfriends

I have never liked Xander but when he is being all jealous of Angel and/or Spike and tries to put Buffy down for dating them, all in this judgmental tone of voice, then I strongly dislike him! It's none of his business if Buffy feels like dating vamps! It's the whole Xander's male ego being threatened because Buffy would rather be with vampires than with a normal guy like him that really ticks me off.

true true true, i also hated him for this. Mr me me me... selfish jealous me. :roll:

regarding Buffy sacrificing herself for Dawn in the Gift, i don't think she did it only because she didn't want to deal with anything anymore, but more because of what the first slayer told her when she was at the desert. that death was her gift, when she understood that statement, she felt at that moment that is was SHE who needed to die to save Dawn and the world, and so she felt she was doing the right thing. i for one do not hate her for that, i actually ADMIRE her actions there.

[vampmogs]

Originally Posted by Cori
That's one of the things I'm least likely to forgive ever. I hated how her alleged friends treated Buffy in this situation. Dawn, the ungrateful brat who wouldn't even be alive if it weren't for Buffy, takes the cake with her "this is my house too". I always disliked Dawn but I did start to tolerate her a bit better in season 7 and then she does something like this!

I hated that scene too and couldn't stand when Dawn gets up and says this is my house too.. I mean what were the writers even thinking when they wrote such a line? Yet, funnily enough s7 Dawn wins me over again when she tells Rona to shut her mouth. :D

I have never liked Xander but when he is being all jealous of Angel and/or Spike and tries to put Buffy down for dating them, all in this judgmental tone of voice, then I strongly dislike him! It's none of his business if Buffy feels like dating vamps! It's the whole Xander's male ego being threatened because Buffy would rather be with vampires than with a normal guy like him that really ticks me off.

I very much side with Xander when he says to Buffy, "what were you thinking?" in relation to Spike. She was sleeping with a soulless murderer, really what was she thinking? However, I disliked Xander's attitude towards Angel based solely on the fact he was a vampire, although I think it not only stems from his male ego but also the fact he hates vampires since Jesse was killed. Regardless, vamp with a soul who was helping and was good, Xander had no right to act the way he did towards him.

[Sassy]

I hated that scene too and couldn't stand when Dawn gets up and says this is my house too.. I mean what were the writers even thinking when they wrote such a line? Yet, funnily enough s7 Dawn wins me over again when she tells Rona to shut her mouth. :D

I completely forgot that scene. It's Buffy's house. If they don't like what she's doing then they should leave.



I very much side with Xander when he says to Buffy, "what were you thinking?" in relation to Spike. She was sleeping with a soulless murderer, really what was she thinking? However, I disliked Xander's attitude towards Angel based solely on the fact he was a vampire, although I think it not only stems from his male ego but also the fact he hates vampires since Jesse was killed. Regardless, vamp with a soul who was helping and was good, Xander had no right to act the way he did towards him.


Xander shouldn't judge Buffy. He dates Anya, a vengence demon(well ex-demon but still. And when Buffy had to kill Angel, the man she loved(at the time anyhow) he just says, "Kick his ass." But when it's Anya that needs the killing it's don't do it.

I had forgotten about those ones for some reason.

[KingofCretins]

Xander shouldn't judge Buffy. He dates Anya, a vengence demon(well ex-demon but still. And when Buffy had to kill Angel, the man she loved(at the time anyhow) he just says, "Kick his ass." But when it's Anya that needs the killing it's don't do it.

By ex-demon, you of course mean... human woman. Not quite the same thing at all. As far as him reversing on Anya... didn't Buffy do a reverse, too? Between the two, which one can impose their opinion by force?

[Sassy]

By ex-demon, you of course mean... human woman. Not quite the same thing at all. As far as him reversing on Anya... didn't Buffy do a reverse, too? Between the two, which one can impose their opinion by force?

I should have phrased that better. What I ment was Angel was good,m working with the Scoobies, why should he get anymore trouble than Anya. As for the whole killing, not killing thing I just think thats it's funny that Xand clearly wants her to kill Angel but when it comes to Anya she shouldn't. Sure, Buffy was more willing to kill Anya than Angel but she still knew what she had to do. When it came down to it she killed Angel, tryed to do the same with Anya. Plus Anya became demon again by choice,m Angel had no such choice as to being evil again.

Sorry if this doesn't make sense, it's getting late here:( .

[KingofCretins]

When it came down to it she killed Angel

I'm one of the few that really thought everyone in "Selfless" had a valid argument. But this is a significant idea... Buffy killed Angel "when it came down to it". Prior to that, she had so harshly resisted the idea of killing him that she passed up multiple chances to do so, which cost several people their lives, and almost certainly would have tried to avoid doing so if she knew the spell was being cast, and ultimately only did so when it was a either/or choice of that or the world being sucked into hell.

In the case of Anya? First response, no hesitation. No endless stalling to see if there could be a spell, or imploring her to see reason, just "she's off the wagon, time to kill her". I can see how that would frustrate Xander. Especially since, as I pointed out, all Xander can do is have his opinion. Buffy can implement hers.

[vampmogs]

I'm one of the few that really thought everyone in "Selfless" had a valid argument. But this is a significant idea... Buffy killed Angel "when it came down to it". Prior to that, she had so harshly resisted the idea of killing him that she passed up multiple chances to do so, which cost several people their lives, and almost certainly would have tried to avoid doing so if she knew the spell was being cast, and ultimately only did so when it was a either/or choice of that or the world being sucked into hell.

Difference is that Angelus and Angel were two different minds, Angel wasn't willingly doing any of the horrible things Angelus did, from what we can tell Anya retained her morals when she became a demon again. Buffy couldn't shove a soul down Anya's throat and make everything all better, Anya already had a soul and she did this anyway. I'm not saying I agree with Buffy not taking Angelus out straight away, although understandable, but it was a different situation. I also don't buy it when people say Buffy is being hypercritical, I don't think it is so much about being a hypocrite but rather Buffy has grown up and learnt, when people grow up they see things differently. Surely Xander and Buffy had learnt from Angelus that they can't allow their loved ones to go on killing when others are at risk, Buffy understood that but did Xander?

In the case of Anya? First response, no hesitation. No endless stalling to see if there could be a spell, or imploring her to see reason, just "she's off the wagon, time to kill her". I can see how that would frustrate Xander. Especially since, as I pointed out, all Xander can do is have his opinion. Buffy can implement hers.

Well that's not exactly true. Buffy already had the issue on her mind at the start of the episode and states later in the episode that it has crossed her mind before which Xander can't deny it has on his as well. It isn't as if Buffy came to this decision just like that, she'd been thinking about it and after everything that had happened with Angelus wouldn't it be careless of Buffy not to put a stop to Anya straight away?

[KingofCretins]

Difference is that Angelus and Angel were two different minds

I reject this argument across the board. It not only makes the curse itself meaningless, it flies in the face of most of the continuity. "Eternity" makes no sense *at all* if they are completely metaphysically distinct entities.

Well that's not exactly true. Buffy already had the issue on her mind at the start of the episode and states later in the episode that it has crossed her mind before which Xander can't deny it has on his as well. It isn't as if Buffy came to this decision just like that, she'd been thinking about it and after everything that had happened with Angelus wouldn't it be careless of Buffy not to put a stop to Anya straight away?

That's one of those Season 7 instances of them telling us and not showing us. Buffy seems pretty indifferent to Anya's demon status, even in "Beneath You" and in "Same Time, Same Place". Was she thinking about the Anya situation as something that would require Anya to be slayed when she left her alone with her paralyzed sister?

[vampmogs]

I reject this argument across the board. It not only makes the curse itself meaningless, it flies in the face of most of the continuity. "Eternity" makes no sense *at all* if they are completely metaphysically distinct entities.

Not really, lots of what we have seen during Btvs and Ats has shown that Angel and Angelus are two distinct entities, it has even been stated as the case by Jasmine. Both options have been explored but it depends entirely on which one you want to choose, there is just as much evidence to suggest that they are two distinct entities than there is to suggest they are not. Wether they are two distinct entities or not they clearly had different motives and feelings, Angel went to help Buffy, Angelus made it his goal to torture her, Angel spent a great deal of time trying to make Faith change and become a good person, Angelus tried his hardest to convince her she was an animal. There was a distinct difference in their mind here and hence one can’t be deemed responsible for something the other chooses to do. Why is it no one gives credit to Angelus for all the good things Angel has done but are quick to lay the blame down on Angel for everything terrible Angelus has done?

That's one of those Season 7 instances of them telling us and not showing us. Buffy seems pretty indifferent to Anya's demon status, even in "Beneath You" and in "Same Time, Same Place". Was she thinking about the Anya situation as something that would require Anya to be slayed when she left her alone with her paralyzed sister?

No she wasn't because that wasn't an instance when she was required to be slain, this was. The fact it crossed Buffy's mind didn't mean at the present she wasn't willing to give Anya the benefit of the doubt and I think that is a very important point here. Buffy gave Anya chances when she was a demon, Anya threw those chances in Buffy's face.

[sherrilina]

IHowever, I disliked Xander's attitude towards Angel based solely on the fact he was a vampire, although I think it not only stems from his male ego but also the fact he hates vampires since Jesse was killed. Regardless, vamp with a soul who was helping and was good, Xander had no right to act the way he did towards him.
I don't think it has anything to do with Angel being a vampire--just with Angel being the one Buffy liked/loved and dated. Xander strongly dislikes Angel even before he finds out he's a vampire, and almost seems happy and glad when he learns the truth, b/c in his mind he probably thought that it would mean no more Angel with Buffy. Xander never makes a secret of his jealousy of Angel--as he says in early season 2, "If Angel does something wrong, it gives me a happy!"--and that's doing something wrong in a relationship sense, not morally as a vampire. So I think it's largely jealousy as far as his attitude towards Angel, not Angel's vampirism. Spike si another story, b/c Xander got to know him for a while as an enemy vamp and then as an irritating houseguest before he learned of Spike's feelings for Buffy--and when he did, he simply laughed at first! (Though he was jealous when he learned that Dawnie now had a crush on Spike instead of him, lol!).

As for things I can't forgive, besides Xander's attitude, kicking Buffy out of the house, the AR, ruining Buffy's nice welcome home dinner in Dead Man's Party (that is just so beyond horrible....I mean, her mom had taken out the nice china they rarely get to use and all, and then the Scoobies invite a whole load of people who don't even know her ("I think it's some chick who just got out of rehab") to come and trash her house (even without the zombies it would have been a mess), not even asking Joyce's permission (I mean, it is her house, and when she's THERE it's pretty rude to barge into her house with a whole uninvited party). I don't care what Buffy did, I still think what the Scoobies did is unforgiveable--I don't know why it bothers me so much, but it does--it was very selfish of the Scoobies, just as Buffy running away was, just as bringing Buffy back was really.

As for on Angel, the thing I can't forgive is more the writers and Joss for their treatment of Cordelia and Cangel on ATS, as well as Fred dumping Gunn. I'm sorry, but I just always feel so sorry for Gunn, b/c I don't know what the poor guy could have done in that situation with her professor--I get the feeling that either way he would have lost her--that she would have become torn up with guilt at having taken a life after the rage had died down. I think Gunn protected her from that, if he had not she would have later wondered why he didn't. I don't think it had anything to do with Frunn in itself--if she had been dating Wesley at the time, and he had helped her, I think she would have later still broken up with him, saying, "Why didn't you stop me?!" So I just think it was rather rotten of her to do that (Wes was also willing to kill for Fred, as we see later), and a stupid reason for Frunn to end.

[LRae12]

As for on Angel, the thing I can't forgive is more the writers and Joss for their treatment of Cordelia and Cangel on ATS

Well, Sherrilina I'm about to bite off my tongue, but I agree with you! :lol: (Though for different reasons, I'm sure...;) )

The writing for Cordelia's character was so unforgivable. They took a character we knew and loved for 6 years and made her unrecognizable to her fans, then when we 'understood' (I say that sarcastically) that it wasn't really Cordy, just a demon inhabiting her body, they discard her character and we don't get to see anything really resolved except ooops, we're going to just kill her off. That WAS unforgivable!

I will also never forgive the writers for never giving Fresly a moment of happiness. They're together for 10 seconds of screen time before they kill Fred! In fact, I'll never forgive them for killing Fred. Just, wrong.

I'll never forgive Angel for deserting his friends in S2. That Wesley was shot, and he didn't even do anything for him was unforgivable. Oh, I know Cordy told him to get lost when he showed up at the hospital, but if he REALLY cared, he would have found a way to smooth things over with her, which I think she really wanted, but put on the bitch-exterior to mask her pain of Angel's rejection of them.

In fact, I'll never forgive the writers for the totally off-character mess they made of Angel's storyline in the first half of S2. I don't like S2 to this day because of that.


BTVS:

I don't think I'll ever forgive Oz for leaving Willow the way he did. Not that it wasn't right for him to leave after Wild at Heart, but that he packed up for good in Something Blue and didn't even give her the courtesy of a warning.

I'll never forgive Riley for being such a bitch-boy. He was selfish and self-centered and way too needy. He knew he was getting involved with the Slayer, and that she would have some independence issues. But because she doesn't fall apart and cry on his shoulder every six minutes, that translates that she doesn't love him? Please! For him to pick the most difficult time of her life to pull what he did in Into the Woods, is absolutely unforgivable. Not to mention the you've got five minutes to give me a reason to stay cuz I'm flying away crap. Ugh. I hate Riley.

I also had a real problem with Giles at the end of S7. In LMPTM, the going behind Buffy's back with Wood was unforgivable. How dare he break her trust like that?

I know this has all ready been mentioned, but In fact, I had a problem with most of S7 as it is...Buffy's friends deserting her for some whiny potentials. Kicking her out of her own home. Disgraceful.

I also concur with the unforgivableness of Buffy's friends in the beginning of S3. To judge her for skipping town for a while and treating her so badly when she got back...ridiculous! Who were THEY to pass any judgement on her. They were just pissed that she wasn't there to watch their backs and hold their hands. What selfishness! Then when she does come back and tries to work out some issues with her mother, Xander has the gall to stick his nose in? Give me a break! Xander had no right, especially after his selfishness! He was the REASON that Buffy had to kill Angel in the first place. If he would have been HONEST with what Willow told him, if Buffy would have known that Willow was re-doing the spell, then she could have stalled more, or something. I don't know, maybe not, but still...Xander really pisses me off in more than one episode!

[sherrilina]

Well, Sherrilina I'm about to bite off my tongue, but I agree with you! :lol: (Though for different reasons, I'm sure...;) )

Oh come now, we don't disagree on everything! ;) Spike is also one of my fave BTVS characters and I like Wesley and Crush and Buffy vs. Dracula, etc, as well...:p


The writing for Cordelia's character was so unforgivable. They took a character we knew and loved for 6 years and made her unrecognizable to her fans, then when we 'understood' (I say that sarcastically) that it wasn't really Cordy, just a demon inhabiting her body, they discard her character and we don't get to see anything really resolved except ooops, we're going to just kill her off. That WAS unforgivable!

Well now I agree with these reasons--obviously I too dislike what they did with Jasmine and especially them discarding her character and then bringing her back only to kill her off!


I will also never forgive the writers for never giving Fresly a moment of happiness. They're together for 10 seconds of screen time before they kill Fred! In fact, I'll never forgive them for killing Fred. Just, wrong.

Well, a bit more than 10 seconds--they also had the kiss at the end of Smile Time! ;) I'm not a big Fresley fan, and I'm more upset that they didn't give Cangel a moment of happiness, or of being officially together (Fresley got more than they did at the very least), but it still sucks for Fresley, and I agree that it was unforgiveable to kill off Fred--I love Fred and can't stand Illyria....


I'll never forgive Angel for deserting his friends in S2. That Wesley was shot, and he didn't even do anything for him was unforgivable. Oh, I know Cordy told him to get lost when he showed up at the hospital, but if he REALLY cared, he would have found a way to smooth things over with her, which I think she really wanted, but put on the bitch-exterior to mask her pain of Angel's rejection of them.

In fact, I'll never forgive the writers for the totally off-character mess they made of Angel's storyline in the first half of S2. I don't like S2 to this day because of that.

Yeah, that was awful as well--I love the chemistry and interplay of the fang gang, so I hated it when they are separated from Angel as well--season 2 is one of my least favorite seasons for that reason, as well as b/c the Darla angst got rather old after a while....

Still not as bad as season 5 though...:p. So maybe another unforgiveable thing is taking the job at WH in the first place....and Lindsey coming back....b/c when he did he was very lame. ;)

[LRae12]

Oh come now, we don't disagree on everything! ;) Spike is also one of my fave BTVS characters and I like Wesley and Crush and Buffy vs. Dracula, etc, as well...:p

Oh, I know...when I said I was about to bite my tongue off, I meant that I agreed with you with the Cordy thing...:p We do have lots of other views in common. :hug:


Still not as bad as season 5 though.... So maybe another unforgiveable thing is taking the job at WH in the first place....and Lindsey coming back....b/c when he did he was very lame.

Now, see Season 5 was my favorite Ats season, but I do agree, it was unforgivable (maybe more like out of character) for the gang to take the job at W&H. Now I did like Lindsey coming back, even though I think his storyline in YW was lame. But I liked bringing him back from the hell dimension in the latter part of S5, and that he helped the fang-gang take on the black thorn.

But that leads me to another unforgivable that I forgot...Angel having Lindsey killed. That was soooo out of character. Lindsey was HUMAN, and to order the Murder of him, even though he was a bad-guy at times, I think was unforgivable.

[bishopcruz]

But that leads me to another unforgivable that I forgot...Angel having Lindsey killed. That was soooo out of character. Lindsey was HUMAN, and to order the Murder of him, even though he was a bad-guy at times, I think was unforgivable.

That wasn't Lindsey, that was Cyborg!Lindsey (with a removable human heart to fool demons.) the REAL Lindsey is working as an ambulance chaser in Tulsa oklahoma. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I always felt the whole 'don't kill humans no matter what' worked relatively well on Buffy, and a lot less so on Angel. Humans in LA were often far more evil than they were in Sunnydale, and with the powers they had, the regular legal system did not apply. I think it helped accentuate the fact that Angel was very much about shades of grey.

I guess that is one of my Unforgivables, what the writers did to Lindsey in S5, it's as if they hadn't even WATCHED S1 and 2 of Angel when they wrote his storyline. It made no sense. He hated W&H and now he wants to run it? Puh-leaze.

Another one is the writer's treatment od Xander post s3. Outside of a few shining moments he got completely neutered as a fighter. He was never one of the best, but in S1-3 he could at least hold his own, suddenly in S4 he gets into a hair-pulling match with Harmony. How sad is it that by the end of the 'verse, Cordy and Wesley can handle themselves better in a fight than Xander can.

And I will never forgive Marti and Joss for killing the B/X plan for season 7. So, instead of something new, we got retread of X/A and B/S.

[LRae12]

That wasn't Lindsey, that was Cyborg!Lindsey (with a removable human heart to fool demons.) the REAL Lindsey is working as an ambulance chaser in Tulsa oklahoma. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.




:roll: Ok, I'll jump on that bandwagon! :lol:


Another one is the writer's treatment od Xander post s3. Outside of a few shining moments he got completely neutered as a fighter. He was never one of the best, but in S1-3 he could at least hold his own, suddenly in S4 he gets into a hair-pulling match with Harmony. How sad is it that by the end of the 'verse, Cordy and Wesley can handle themselves better in a fight than Xander can.


See, that was another fundamental difference between Btvs & Ats. On Buffy, nobody could possibly defend themselves unless they had super-powers (didn't Buffy even treat Riley like a kitten?) But on Ats, everyone was capable of taking care of themselves...Fred dusted vampires just fine, and she was a walking stick! :p So that fact that Xander couldn't handle himself was just a weird inconsistency between the shows. (Even though he and all of the other mere-mortals was slaying the uber-vamps in Chosen, when Buffy herself had a really rough time doing that pre-Showtime)


And I will never forgive Marti and Joss for killing the B/X plan for season 7.

There was a B/X plan for S7? Never heard of that one...but boy, I'm glad I missed it! :lol:

[bishopcruz]

See, that was another fundamental difference between Btvs & Ats. On Buffy, nobody could possibly defend themselves unless they had super-powers (didn't Buffy even treat Riley like a kitten?) But on Ats, everyone was capable of taking care of themselves...Fred dusted vampires just fine, and she was a walking stick! So that fact that Xander couldn't handle himself was just a weird inconsistency between the shows. (Even though he and all of the other mere-mortals was slaying the uber-vamps in Chosen, when Buffy herself had a really rough time doing that pre-Showtime)

Ah the uber-vamps, another unforgiveable offense, don't get me started on them.

As for regular vamps, in S1-3, humans COULD hold their own against vamps and other stuff, they just had a much harder time with it. Even in S4 Riley, who's superpowers didn't seem particularly special, could kick some ass. Even after he is off of the drugs that pumped him up, he handles himself well.

As the main cast of Buffy kept getting more and more powered, the regular humans just got tossed to the wayside. Xander especially. It was one of the side effects of having so many powered people.

There was a B/X plan for S7? Never heard of that one...but boy, I'm glad I missed it!

Watch early S7, y'know the episodes that didn't suck. There is a definite B/X vibe to those episodes, and in interviews with Nick, Sarah, and others they state that the plan was to finally get B/X together. Now, whether it was Marti coming back, or Joss wanting to make sure Buffy could never have a happy relationship, things visibly changed around 'Sleeper'. YMMV.

[KingofCretins]

I don't think it has anything to do with Angel being a vampire--just with Angel being the one Buffy liked/loved and dated. Xander strongly dislikes Angel even before he finds out he's a vampire, and almost seems happy and glad when he learns the truth, b/c in his mind he probably thought that it would mean no more Angel with Buffy. Xander never makes a secret of his jealousy of Angel--as he says in early season 2, "If Angel does something wrong, it gives me a happy!"--and that's doing something wrong in a relationship sense, not morally as a vampire. So I think it's largely jealousy as far as his attitude towards Angel, not Angel's vampirism. Spike si another story, b/c Xander got to know him for a while as an enemy vamp and then as an irritating houseguest before he learned of Spike's feelings for Buffy--and when he did, he simply laughed at first! (Though he was jealous when he learned that Dawnie now had a crush on Spike instead of him, lol!).

It was in no way unreasonable to assume that Angel being a vampire would be a deal breaker for Buffy... or any sane human being... so I understand his relief. But, he's also much more reasonable than people give him credit for toward Angel. "Buffy... thinks your a real person. Right now I need you to prove her right", "Angel's our friend! Except that I don't like him". Xander comprehends Angel as, if not a friend, not an enemy either, and that's in spite of his being a vampire.

Why wouldn't he laugh about Spike's feelings towards Buffy? The people writing those episodes even figured they were ludicrous. Not only is it funny based on in character reactions by Xander, it's also funny because he knows that there is no way Spike has a chance with Buffy unless something freaky happened. Something freaky did happen -- Buffy was brought back from the dead a self-loathing emotional basketcase.

I also concur with the unforgivableness of Buffy's friends in the beginning of S3. To judge her for skipping town for a while and treating her so badly when she got back...ridiculous! Who were THEY to pass any judgement on her. They were just pissed that she wasn't there to watch their backs and hold their hands. What selfishness! Then when she does come back and tries to work out some issues with her mother, Xander has the gall to stick his nose in? Give me a break!

Buffy was *wrong* to run away. Not only did she terrorize her mother, her Watcher, and her friends, she betrayed her duty. There was nothing defensible about her running away. Even she understood she was denying herself -- that was the breakthrough she was able to make when she identified herself in "Anne". And there is no fight for anyone to gang up on Buffy in during the party if she *isn't about to run away again*.

Xander had no right, especially after his selfishness! He was the REASON that Buffy had to kill Angel in the first place. If he would have been HONEST with what Willow told him, if Buffy would have known that Willow was re-doing the spell, then she could have stalled more, or something. I don't know, maybe not, but still...Xander really pisses me off in more than one episode!

Buffy had to kill Angel the moment he pulled the sword. The spell, lack of spell, Buffy's knowledge, or lack of knowledge, was ultimately meaningless. She didn't get to him in time because she was fighting the other vamps, he pulled the sword, that was that.

And, leaving that aside, the empirical evidence of how Buffy fights and her failure to focus against Angel leans much more heavily in favor of Xander probably having saved her life... and his, and everybody else's... by not letting her get distracted by an attempt at a spell that they had no reason to just assume might work anyway.

Seriously -- even if we decide Buffy can magically stall where she never could before, how is she exactly supposed to know if the spell is still being tried, or has failed? Is the idea that she was supposed to keep stalling Angel while Xander ran back and forth from the hospital with updates? Buffy had no way to be aware of the status of the spell as it was attempted.

A couple unforgivable things this all makes me think of? Buffy running away from Sunnydale, Willow scourging Tara's memory.

[Cinderela]

I don't think she was ignoring them. I think that the reality was that Spike was a bit needy at that time and she was trying to do right there, considering that he was really trying. AND she was doing her job, crazy vampire+soul=needs supervision.

I also think that she was under a lot of pressure-moving all those people into her house seriously took away her ability to be alone and process everything. She maybe needed quiet, alone time. Well, hanging with Spike is probably about as close as she was going to get. He didn't ask for anything, he didn't push his ideas, he just listened and supported.


Bingo - with Spike's unpredictable behavior, he certainly needed supervision. And sometimes, all you really need is a good listener. While I haven't actually done it, I would think that planning a war to eliminate the First Evil would take some alone time to form some strategy basically only the lame potentials for help.

The thing that I have had the hardest time with: Giles plotting to kill Spike behind her back. Not because of the injustice to Spike, who was and had been helping, but because of the disrespect it showed to Buffy. He left her during season six, told her she didn't need him anymore that she needed to do these things for herself (including be the slayer and raise a teenager-cause that's a reasonable request for a twenty-year old). (Ok-maybe I'm still a bit irritated by that choice too.) But then he showed no respect in her decisions. She was following her instincts, just like he had taught her to do. He can't have it both ways.

Right with you there, Dorian's Kitten - but really I can't forgive the writers for writing that little plot device in there in the first place. No matter how far out or wild Buffy's plans were, Giles was always behind her. No way the Giles WE know and love would conspire behind her back to kill Spike. And it really wasn't necessary anyway - Robin had plenty of motivation to dust Spike on his own, no conspiring with Giles required. It would be totally withn Wood's character to dust Spike. And totally against Giles to go behind Buffy's back and break her trust.



Angel wiping the gang's minds of everything that happened around Conor when he took over Wolfram and Hart. He had no right to do that to the people who would die for him. It really is a version of mind rape.

I've advanced another point of view in another thread, but I have to repeat it here. Since the writers conveniently left most everything vague about the details of the deal, I think Angel deserves the benefit of the doubt. Connor was not only HOMIDICAL but SUICIDAL at the time Angel had to make the deal. He was ready to kill Cordy, himself and God only knows who else. Ideally, he would have the chance to consult with the gang - and I think they would have agreed. Even Wes didn't seem to upset for long when it was all explained. But I can understand how making a deal to not only save Connor's life, but give him the normal life that Angel never could would be very tempting. Especially when it (seemingly, at the time) not hurt anyone else. Angel put aside his own feelings for his son and made the best decision he could at the time. Probably would have made a different decision if he had been able to see into the future and know all the consequences of that choice.

Same with Willow using that on Tara and then again Buffy. You don't fix things by making people forget about them. I feel less strongly about Willow trying it though, mostly because I don't think she knew better and the addiction to magick is like an addiction to drugs, complete loss of yourself.

Sorry, I can't agree with you there, Nikki. IMHO, what Willow did was about the worst thing anyone could do to another person. Willow raped the minds and memories of her friends for her OWN best interest - to make things come out the way SHE wanted them to come out. And, if my memory serves me correctly, Tabula Rasa was BEFORE Willow changed Amy back and gets addicted to Rack's magic, so I can't buy the "she did't know better' argument.

Xander leaving Anya at the alter Biggest mistake of his life. At least he comes to realise it, but he shouldn't have made it in the first place. It's classic Joss to rip something apart in the most painful way. I get Xander being scared, everyone has doubts, but when you live together and share everything marriage doesn't change anything! /sigh

TOTAL agreement with you there! Anya walking along down that aisle is one of the biggest tear jerking scenes in all 7 seasons, IMHO. Xander really started to get on my last nerve after that. And then to have the nerve not only to try to "explain" (yeah, right!), but to be jealous of Anya and Spike. I've often wondered if the real problem of Xander being jealous of Spike is that Spike always got the girls Xander himself wanted.


Buffy not killing Dawn in the Gift I get Dawn is her last family member and that she didn't ask to be the key, but sacrificing yourself for her leaves the world in real trouble. Who is gonna save Dawn from the next apcolaypse? Buffy must have known that the slayer line now already considered her dead. Yes I get it was a great dramatic ending, but I hated that she did that. And one of my favourite moments is in season 7 when she admits if she had to do it again she'd let Dawn die! This unforgiveable could be helped by the fact that I hate Dawn, every second of her on screen is one second too long!!!

Yes! That was one of the many moments that had me screaming at my TV ("KILL DAWN!") And even before that, when they were "getting ready" Buff actually THREATENING to hurt/kill (can't remember the exact quote) if any of the gang tries to hurt Dawn. UHG! And I thought I was the only EXTREME Dawn hater!

Buffy being kicked out in season 7 was pretty horrible. Especially how just a few episodes earlier Xander had given this lovely speech on how they should all trust her as she's laid down her life twice to save the world etc. I felt quite pleased when Buffy ended up getting the Sycth and Faith led the potentials into a bomb :D

And since when did the whining klepto get the right to say "This is my house, too." And they wonder why she turned to Spike for consolation! And if only that bomb would have actually killed the time wasting lame potentials. :thud:

Sorry I have to respond to this..

You can't be mad about that.. when someone dumps you on your wedding day you aren't with them anymore, therefore sex with someone else isn't cheating. Anya says it best 'You left me at the alter, I don't owe you anything'

If someone left me at the altar I'd probably kill their family so I think Xander got off easier than he should have done for that!

Not to mention that he was dazed and confused that everyone didn't just UNDERSTAND why he left her at the alter, pat him on the head and say "That's OK, Xander" Not to mention (OK, I'm going to mention it anyway!) the ridiculous hypocritical going after Spike with an axe after he saw Spike & Anya in Entrophy! What nerve! IMHO, he's very lucky none of Anya's demon friends took any action against him for what he did to Anya!

Now I did like Lindsey coming back, even though I think his storyline in YW was lame. But I liked bringing him back from the hell dimension in the latter part of S5, and that he helped the fang-gang take on the black thorn.

But that leads me to another unforgivable that I forgot...Angel having Lindsey killed. That was soooo out of character. Lindsey was HUMAN, and to order the Murder of him, even though he was a bad-guy at times, I think was unforgivable.

I'm in total agreement with you LRae12, MURDERING Lindsey was totally unforgivable, especially after he actually did his assigned mission. But maybe there is a seed of doubt in Lorne's comment "I've already heard you sing." That could mean that we don't know everything Angel knows about Lindsey. Still, it was a cold thing to do.

I can't believe noone has mentioned the Spike trying to rape Buffy scene! Totally unforgivable!

[Anon]

Buffy was *wrong* to run away. Not only did she terrorize her mother, her Watcher, and her friends, she betrayed her duty. There was nothing defensible about her running away. Even she understood she was denying herself -- that was the breakthrough she was able to make when she identified herself in "Anne". And there is no fight for anyone to gang up on Buffy in during the party if she *isn't about to run away again*.Nothing defensible about it? Really? She'd been kicked out of home and school and she had the police after her for a crime she didn't commit as well as what happened with Angel. What where her alternatives? What could she reasonably have done that would have been better? For that matter, if such options exist, how many other people would have taken them when in her position? It is unreasonable to expect her to have made a better decision than she did under those circumstances.

The only thing I really cant forgive is the AR. The rest I don't really care about, but I can't let this one slide, if only out of principle.

[vampmogs]

Right with you there, Dorian's Kitten - but really I can't forgive the writers for writing that little plot device in there in the first place. No matter how far out or wild Buffy's plans were, Giles was always behind her. No way the Giles WE know and love would conspire behind her back to kill Spike. And it really wasn't necessary anyway - Robin had plenty of motivation to dust Spike on his own, no conspiring with Giles required. It would be totally withn Wood's character to dust Spike. And totally against Giles to go behind Buffy's back and break her trust.


Giles was not always behind Buffy, I'd be inclined to think that he would kill Dawn if Buffy wouldn't, hadn't realised that she could close the portal and Dawn had been bled. He always thinks about the bigger picture and he believed that Buffy's judgement was clouded when it came to Spike, he thought it was best for everyone to have Spike killed.

I've advanced another point of view in another thread, but I have to repeat it here. Since the writers conveniently left most everything vague about the details of the deal, I think Angel deserves the benefit of the doubt. Connor was not only HOMIDICAL but SUICIDAL at the time Angel had to make the deal. He was ready to kill Cordy, himself and God only knows who else. Ideally, he would have the chance to consult with the gang - and I think they would have agreed. Even Wes didn't seem to upset for long when it was all explained. But I can understand how making a deal to not only save Connor's life, but give him the normal life that Angel never could would be very tempting. Especially when it (seemingly, at the time) not hurt anyone else. Angel put aside his own feelings for his son and made the best decision he could at the time. Probably would have made a different decision if he had been able to see into the future and know all the consequences of that choice.

Angel really has little right to wipe the memories of all his friends but his actions are far more understandable than Willow who did it for completely selfish reasons.

Sorry, I can't agree with you there, Nikki. IMHO, what Willow did was about the worst thing anyone could do to another person. Willow raped the minds and memories of her friends for her OWN best interest - to make things come out the way SHE wanted them to come out. And, if my memory serves me correctly, Tabula Rasa was BEFORE Willow changed Amy back and gets addicted to Rack's magic, so I can't buy the "she did't know better' argument.

Willow was addicted to magics before Rack came along, he was just someone who fed her addiction and she reached breaking point. At the time of Tabula Rasa Willow had promised to not go magic for a week and she couldn't even manage that; all before she discovered Rack.


TOTAL agreement with you there! Anya walking along down that aisle is one of the biggest tear jerking scenes in all 7 seasons, IMHO. Xander really started to get on my last nerve after that. And then to have the nerve not only to try to "explain" (yeah, right!), but to be jealous of Anya and Spike. I've often wondered if the real problem of Xander being jealous of Spike is that Spike always got the girls Xander himself wanted.

Why does Xander have a nerve for trying to explain his actions? Anya clearly went to his apartment looking for an explanation or to at least talk about it. I think he would have hade a nerve if he left Anya at the altar and then believed he didn't need to explain.

Ah since when has Xander been jealous of Spike because Spike got the girls Xander wanted? Xander tried to axe Spike before ever learning he had been sleeping with Buffy and before then had been going out with Dru who Xander called a nutcase and Harmony who Xander titled a 'simpleton.' Xander was never jealous of Spike he loathed Spike because he was an evil mass murdering vampire who deserved no respect whatsoever.

Yes! That was one of the many moments that had me screaming at my TV ("KILL DAWN!") And even before that, when they were "getting ready" Buff actually THREATENING to hurt/kill (can't remember the exact quote) if any of the gang tries to hurt Dawn. UHG! And I thought I was the only EXTREME Dawn hater!

We don't know if it was Buffy who said she'd kill the gang, that may have been the Buffybot as this was Buffy went up to her house to get her things and one could assume change clothing. She does state to Giles she'd stop him if he tried anything but I don't believe SHE actually said she'd kill her friends.

And since when did the whining klepto get the right to say "This is my house, too." And they wonder why she turned to Spike for consolation! And if only that bomb would have actually killed the time wasting lame potentials. :thud:

Dawn had no right to say that, it was an extremely stupid line for a number of reasons. However, Buffy never turned to Spike for consolation, he went and found her and she asked him to leave remember?

Not to mention that he was dazed and confused that everyone didn't just UNDERSTAND why he left her at the alter, pat him on the head and say "That's OK, Xander" Not to mention (OK, I'm going to mention it anyway!) the ridiculous hypocritical going after Spike with an axe after he saw Spike & Anya in Entrophy! What nerve! IMHO, he's very lucky none of Anya's demon friends took any action against him for what he did to Anya!

How was Xander a hypocrite for going after Spike with an axe? Xander didn't sleep with anyone so he can't be a hypocrite, he did something wrong but still wanted to be with Anya so it'd be surprising if he wasn't hurt by her actions. I don't believe Anya cheated on him because they were no longer together but Xander wasn't being hypercritical.

Oh yes, cause Xander deserves to be killed or cursed for leaving Anya at the altar... bit much don't you think?

I'm in total agreement with you LRae12, MURDERING Lindsey was totally unforgivable, especially after he actually did his assigned mission. But maybe there is a seed of doubt in Lorne's comment "I've already heard you sing." That could mean that we don't know everything Angel knows about Lindsey. Still, it was a cold thing to do.

Lindsey continous switched sides and made it pretty evident he had a concience and could see the different between right and wrong; Lindsey nearly always chose wrong. Futhermore, Lindsey doesn't deny that he'll try running for CEO of Wolfram and Hart after Angel makes his assault and with those kind of resources behind him who do you think he's going to go after? I don't think Angel particularly did anything wrong by killing Lindsey.

I can't believe noone has mentioned the Spike trying to rape Buffy scene! Totally unforgivable![/QUOTE]

Agreed. Although I don't blame Spike with a soul because IMO he is a different thing entirely, the same way Angel and Angelus are two different entities.

[Sosa lola]

I'm angry at Xander for leaving Anya at the altar like that, but to KILL HIM? That's really harsh. I think he did it because he thought it was the right thing to do. I'm actually also disappointed at Anya for trying to get Xander's friends to wish him death. That's far worse than dumping someone at the altar. Where's her humanity?

I mean Perry's way of revenge is far better when Rachel left him at the altar, he hooked up with her friend to hurt her. Unlike Xander, Rachel didn't actually hold Perry's hands and explain that they're making a big mistake, she actually ran away without any explanation. The Perry/Rachel example is from Friends. :lol:

[vampmogs]

I'm angry at Xander for leaving Anya at the altar like that, but to KILL HIM? That's really harsh. I think he did it because he thought it was the right thing to do. I'm actually also disappointed at Anya for trying to get Xander's friends to wish him death. That's far worse than dumping someone at the altar. Where's her humanity?

I mean Perry's way of revenge is far better when Rachel left him at the altar, he hooked up with her friend to hurt her. Unlike Xander, Rachel didn't actually hold Perry's hands and explain that they're making a big mistake, she actually ran away without any explanation. The Perry/Rachel example is from Friends. :lol:

Farah your here! :D :wave: and your defending Xander way to go! :2party:

I couldn't agree with you more, no one deserves death because they stood someone up at the altar- especially when their was no malice intent. Excellent point about Anya, why is it no one is questioning her actions- you know trying to kill the man she claimed to love!

Why is it that characters who do the most evil things are accepted because they are loveable :(

P.S love your avatar Farah! :)

[KingofCretins]

Buffy's declaration in "The Gift" was "I'll kill anyone who comes near Dawn". I have no doubt whatsoever she meant it. But, I also believed Xander when he said that "if they hurt Willow, I'll kill you" to Buffy.

Killing Lindsey was pretty unforgivable, but I wouldn't have remembered to list it -- it was so typical of Angel at that point to decide which humans had a right to live and which ones didn't.

I think Xander was wrong to decide to kill Spike for sleeping with Anya, but it couldn't be unforgivable, because killing Spike before his soul never could actually be wrong on its own merits. After the AR, for instance, he would have been awesome for killing him.

Nothing defensible about it? Really? She'd been kicked out of home and school and she had the police after her for a crime she didn't commit as well as what happened with Angel. What where her alternatives? What could she reasonably have done that would have been better? For that matter, if such options exist, how many other people would have taken them when in her position? It is unreasonable to expect her to have made a better decision than she did under those circumstances.

Even if she thought Joyce was sincere in kicking her out, Giles doesn't own a couch? Willow doesn't? Being expelled obviously wasn't definitive; there was a school Joyce was going to send her to if needed that was in the area (maybe that school referred to in "Reptile Boy?" Catholic school Buffy? Wheee!). None of these factors dictated she *had* to leave town, and as I said -- her mission and her duty and the people that loved her were there in Sunnydale.

This thread is great... is there a way to rate threads here?

[vampmogs]

Buffy's declaration in "The Gift" was "I'll kill anyone who comes near Dawn". I have no doubt whatsoever she meant it. But, I also believed Xander when he said that "if they hurt Willow, I'll kill you" to Buffy.

Are we sure that was Buffy and not the Buffybot? At this point Buffy had been to her house and one could suggest she changed here? I've never been sure if this was supposed to be the very direct Buffybot or Buffy herself?

Killing Lindsey was pretty unforgivable, but I wouldn't have remembered to list it -- it was so typical of Angel at that point to decide which humans had a right to live and which ones didn't.

Shouldn't the blame equally be shared with Lorne though? No one forced him to do this, he believed in what he was doing- he had heard Lindsey sing ;)

I think Xander was wrong to decide to kill Spike for sleeping with Anya, but it couldn't be unforgivable, because killing Spike before his soul never could actually be wrong on its own merits. After the AR, for instance, he would have been awesome for killing him.

I would have loved the AR scene to play out differently. After Buffy says "Because I stopped you! Something I should have done a long time ago!" the scene fades away on the shot of the Summer's home. I would have loved Xander to walk into the house, find Spike's jacket, walk up the stairs, open the door and find Buffy crying on the bathroom floor with a pile of Spike's ashes beside her.

Even if she thought Joyce was sincere in kicking her out, Giles doesn't own a couch? Willow doesn't? Being expelled obviously wasn't definitive; there was a school Joyce was going to send her to if needed that was in the area (maybe that school referred to in "Reptile Boy?" Catholic school Buffy? Wheee!). None of these factors dictated she *had* to leave town, and as I said -- her mission and her duty and the people that loved her were there in Sunnydale.

Does Buffy belong to the world though? I think it is unfair to believe that Buffy should have her life forever dictated to her- sounds more like the theories of the council than anything else. Buffy wasn't turning her back completely on her duties, she saved the man from the car, she helped Anne; albeit rather unwillingly at the start.

I can't blame Buffy for running away, after Xander had told her Willow's message of "kick his ass" Buffy could at least assume that her friends wouldn't be to sympathetic to the idea she had just killed Angel- sleeping on their couches wouldn't have been a promising option for her. And then there is that whole idea of the cops looking to arrest you for murder- which for a 17 year old, slayer or not, is a pretty scary thing.

This thread is great... is there a way to rate threads here?

It is, I think there is a rate this thread button up the top of the page somewhere.

[KingofCretins]

Are we sure that was Buffy and not the Buffybot? At this point Buffy had been to her house and one could suggest she changed here? I've never been sure if this was supposed to be the very direct Buffybot or Buffy herself?

Can only be Buffy. If not for the clothing, the voice tone, everything else -- no way it's the bot. Even against Glory, the 'bot is never what you'd call grim or sober. The best it manages even when posturing before the fight is some dry sarcasm.

Shouldn't the blame equally be shared with Lorne though? No one forced him to do this, he believed in what he was doing- he had heard Lindsey sing

He believed in it so much he walked away from the fight completely for having done it? Lorne pulled the trigger, but Angel ordered the hit, which is no different from pulling the trigger.

I would have loved the AR scene to play out differently. After Buffy says "Because I stopped you! Something I should have done a long time ago!" the scene fades away on the shot of the Summer's home. I would have loved Xander to walk into the house, find Spike's jacket, walk up the stairs, open the door and find Buffy crying on the bathroom floor with a pile of Spike's ashes beside her.

It's weird, but I think it would have been better for Xander or Dawn to dust him.

Does Buffy belong to the world though? I think it is unfair to believe that Buffy should have her life forever dictated to her- sounds more like the theories of the council than anything else. Buffy wasn't turning her back completely on her duties, she saved the man from the car, she helped Anne; albeit rather unwillingly at the start.

Buffy belongs to Buffy alone, but the Slayer is part of who that is. Like Agent Smith says, there's no escaping reason, no denying purpose. And perhaps the good she did there was what she was supposed to do, but as decisions go at the time, turning her back on Sunnydale was the wrong thing to do.

Also, whatever else "kick his ass" was, I don't see how Buffy ever would have understood it as anything other than well-intentioned support from her friends.

[vampmogs]

Can only be Buffy. If not for the clothing, the voice tone, everything else -- no way it's the bot. Even against Glory, the 'bot is never what you'd call grim or sober. The best it manages even when posturing before the fight is some dry sarcasm.

But before and after we never would have believed that the bot could have acted grim or sober, or angry which it appears to be when lashing out at Glory and punching her several times in the face. I don't think it is entirely unreasonable to suggest it could have acted grim or sober. Furthermore, didn't Buffy go and get changed upstairs in her house? What else was she getting other than her clothing? Spike had the weapons from downstairs and the Dagons Sphere and Troll Hammer were at The Magic Box. Whoever said it was extremely direct and Giles and Spike didn't exactly seem offended by what it said, rather they made a dry humorous comment about the statement.

When would have Buffy changed between the time the bot or Buffy walked out of shot, Spike and Giles packed their gear and followed Willow and Tara outside?

He believed in it so much he walked away from the fight completely for having done it? Lorne pulled the trigger, but Angel ordered the hit, which is no different from pulling the trigger.

We don't know that for sure. Lorne tells him it isn't his kind of work any more, he was broken ever since Fred and being confused about Angel's honesty really seemed to do his head in. When Lorne really feels strongly about something he won't do it, we've seen him walk out on the gang before even against Angel's protests.

It's weird, but I think it would have been better for Xander or Dawn to dust him.

I think it could have been interesting whoever did it. However, in a way I think it would allow Buffy to gain back some of that power Spike had took from her throughout the season. Raping her and making her feel so powerless pretty much put Buffy in that helpless little girl role, it'd be fitting that she'd fight back and finish Spike off.

Buffy belongs to Buffy alone, but the Slayer is part of who that is. Like Agent Smith says, there's no escaping reason, no denying purpose. And perhaps the good she did there was what she was supposed to do, but as decisions go at the time, turning her back on Sunnydale was the wrong thing to do.

Perhaps it was wrong but I think the fact Giles didn't help the gang fight vamps whilst Buffy was missing and only offered his cautious advice was far less forgivable. He was the Watcher, if anything he should have been the one hunting every night.

Also, whatever else "kick his ass" was, I don't see how Buffy ever would have understood it as anything other than well-intentioned support from her friends.

She isn't too happy about it in Selfless is she? If I were Buffy I know I'd see it as a bit insensitive considering that both of them knew how much she loved Angel.

[KingofCretins]

But before and after we never would have believed that the bot could have acted grim or sober, or angry which it appears to be when lashing out at Glory and punching her several times in the face. I don't think it is entirely unreasonable to suggest it could have acted grim or sober. Furthermore, didn't Buffy go and get changed upstairs in her house? What else was she getting other than her clothing? Spike had the weapons from downstairs and the Dagons Sphere and Troll Hammer were at The Magic Box. Whoever said it was extremely direct and Giles and Spike didn't exactly seem offended by what it said, rather they made a dry humorous comment about the statement.

Nope, it's Buffy -- the scene opens on Buffy and Spike coming back from her house to get weapons. They are walking in from the street through the main entrance. And, as funny as it is to imagine that that was the Buffybot that shared that moment with Spike at the house... the 'bot couldn't have invited him in.

As for having Xander or Dawn killing Spike, I think it would have been a cool, and rare, exception where Buffy is the one that needed protection.

[vampmogs]

Nope, it's Buffy -- the scene opens on Buffy and Spike coming back from her house to get weapons. They are walking in from the street through the main entrance. And, as funny as it is to imagine that that was the Buffybot that shared that moment with Spike at the house... the 'bot couldn't have invited him in.

I'm not suggesting that the Buffybot was the one who invited Spike in :roll: I'm saying that Buffy likely went up and got her clothing from her bedroom after sharing that scene with Spike. Perhaps the Buffybot was in the car or something? I just don't see how there was enough time for Buffy and the bot to switch clothing then catch up with the scoobies after they left the Magic Box. It could have been the Buffybot and Spike who entered again and we missed the real Buffy entering the shop when the camera moved away from the door. The camera conveniantly avoided the real Buffy the whole way up to Glory's tower. We also have to remember it was the bot who asked Willow if she needed anything and seemed rather Buffy-like. Although since she says this off screen then the camera goes onto the Buffybot it could be that the real Buffy actually said this.

As for having Xander or Dawn killing Spike, I think it would have been a cool, and rare, exception where Buffy is the one that needed protection.

It would have been cool, basically it would have been cool to see Spike dust after the AR in general :D

[KingofCretins]

I'm not suggesting that the Buffybot was the one who invited Spike in I'm saying that Buffy likely went up and got her clothing from her bedroom after sharing that scene with Spike. Perhaps the Buffybot was in the car or something? I just don't see how there was enough time for Buffy and the bot to switch clothing then catch up with the scoobies after they left the Magic Box. It could have been the Buffybot and Spike who entered again and we missed the real Buffy entering the shop when the camera moved away from the door. The camera conveniantly avoided the real Buffy the whole way up to Glory's tower. We also have to remember it was the bot who asked Willow if she needed anything and seemed rather Buffy-like. Although since she says this off screen then the camera goes onto the Buffybot it could be that the real Buffy actually said this.

It's a pretty long stretch. I actually have pulled "The Gift" up on DVD. Buffy leaves Willow from the conversation about Willow being the big gun and speaks to Anya, Xander, and Giles about what they've found in the basement. Immediately off that conversation, Buffy takes Spike to her house. We see them at the house, we see them coming back into the store. When was all this bot moving and changing clothes going to happen without Buffy having even known it was going to happen? It's just not plausible. Buffy told her friends she would kill them if they threatened Dawn.

[vampmogs]

It's a pretty long stretch. I actually have pulled "The Gift" up on DVD. Buffy leaves Willow from the conversation about Willow being the big gun and speaks to Anya, Xander, and Giles about what they've found in the basement. Immediately off that conversation, Buffy takes Spike to her house. We see them at the house, we see them coming back into the store. When was all this bot moving and changing clothes going to happen without Buffy having even known it was going to happen? It's just not plausible. Buffy told her friends she would kill them if they threatened Dawn.

Which means then that Buffy and the bot had to switch clothing whilst all the others left the Magic Box? Which means Buffy and the bot would have then had to run up and catch up to the Scoobies sometime later. However, we see them all walking together as they follow Tara.

It is a stretch and I could see Buffy saying such a thing because she made it clear to Giles that she would stop them and also stated that she'd protect Dawn even if the portals opened. However, basically there is a goof somewhere, in the same kind of way Spike asks the demon to change him back to what he was in Two To Go.

[KingofCretins]

Which means then that Buffy and the bot had to switch clothing whilst all the others left the Magic Box? Which means Buffy and the bot would have then had to run up and catch up to the Scoobies sometime later. However, we see them all walking together as they follow Tara.

There never was a clothing switch. Buffy fights Glory in the same top, at least, that she was wearing the whole episode. The 'bot had a leather jacket on over a similar color top.

It is a stretch and I could see Buffy saying such a thing because she made it clear to Giles that she would stop them and also stated that she'd protect Dawn even if the portals opened. However, basically there is a goof somewhere, in the same kind of way Spike asks the demon to change him back to what he was in Two To Go.

Buffy definitely would say it... and I can't imagine writing a whole new program for the 'bot to say something like it in that time. I also can't imagine Giles and Spike sharing that wry amusement over the St. Crispin's Day speech if it was anyone other than their leader speaking.

The closest thing to a goof is that the 'bot is just a bit *too* Buffy at the start of the fight.

[vampmogs]

There never was a clothing switch. Buffy fights Glory in the same top, at least, that she was wearing the whole episode. The 'bot had a leather jacket on over a similar color top.

I think the top was different- wasn't the bot wearing the t-shirt underneath that Buffy was wearing whilst Buffy was now wearing a jumper? And of course there is the change of footware- pants and having a sister who actually reminded me of this, Buffy would have had to straighten her hair to get it that smooth and straight after having it tied up :roll:

Buffy definitely would say it... and I can't imagine writing a whole new program for the 'bot to say something like it in that time. I also can't imagine Giles and Spike sharing that wry amusement over the St. Crispin's Day speech if it was anyone other than their leader speaking.

Do you really have to write a program? We know the bot has basic skills to follow commands, they could have commanded it to kill anyone trying to harm Dawn.

The closest thing to a goof is that the 'bot is just a bit *too* Buffy at the start of the fight.

Agreed.

[KingofCretins]

I think the top was different- wasn't the bot wearing the t-shirt underneath that Buffy was wearing whilst Buffy was now wearing a jumper? And of course there is the change of footware- pants and having a sister who actually reminded me of this, Buffy would have had to straighten her hair to get it that smooth and straight after having it tied up

I'd have to open it back up, but Buffy's top really didn't change. I don't remember a jumper, though. She did have some sort of messenger bag, though. Hair and makeup are not bound by physics on TV, though.

Do you really have to write a program? We know the bot has basic skills to follow commands, they could have commanded it to kill anyone trying to harm Dawn.


I personally figure it more likely that Willow had enough time to fix her and put her in "Slay" mode, and tell her that she was going to slay Glory.

[sherrilina]

I can't believe noone has mentioned the Spike trying to rape Buffy scene! Totally unforgivable!
Actually Spike trying to rape Buffy has been mentioned, from the very first post! It was referred to in the standard abbreviation "the AR" (Attempted Rape) though. I referred to it myself as well in my own post....

I think it could have been interesting whoever did it. However, in a way I think it would allow Buffy to gain back some of that power Spike had took from her throughout the season. Raping her and making her feel so powerless pretty much put Buffy in that helpless little girl role, it'd be fitting that she'd fight back and finish Spike off.
What do you mean? She did fight back, which is why he didn't succeed in raping her!

[Sosa lola]

Farah your here! :D :wave: and your defending Xander way to go! :2party:

I am here!! :D

Why is it that characters who do the most evil things are accepted because they are loveable :(

It always annoys me when Anya is excused just because she's funny. I love Anya, she's one of my favorite female characters, but she's not perfect.

P.S love your avatar Farah! :)

Thanks. I have another one similar to it, also by moscow_watcher:

http://s80.photobucket.com/albums/j180/Arrohy/?action=view&current=moscow_watcher2.gif

[Sassy]

I can't believe noone has mentioned the Spike trying to rape Buffy scene! Totally unforgivable!

I mentioned that in my first post, the first thing I put was the AR. That is unforgivable. He claims to love her yet he trys to rape her?

I don't however, blame souled Soike. Just like I don't blame Angel for Angelus' actions.

[LRae12]

I mentioned that in my first post, the first thing I put was the AR. That is unforgivable. He claims to love her yet he trys to rape her?

I don't however, blame souled Soike. Just like I don't blame Angel for Angelus' actions.

Exactly...In Seeing Red Spike was a soulles demon monster...of course it's logical that he'd try to rape her...was it wrong, absolutely, but within the confines of his character at that point in time I can see why the writers wrote it that way...it also was the thing that propelled him to go seek out his soul, so in a way it turned out in a positive way, at least from Spike's POV. And I'm sure that's one of the acts Spike committed that tortured Souled!Spike the most...:(

[bishopcruz]

Exactly...In Seeing Red Spike was a soulles demon monster...of course it's logical that he'd try to rape her...was it wrong, absolutely, but within the confines of his character at that point in time I can see why the writers wrote it that way...it also was the thing that propelled him to go seek out his soul, so in a way it turned out in a positive way, at least from Spike's POV. And I'm sure that's one of the acts Spike committed that tortured Souled!Spike the most...:(

Spike was what Spike was. I think the AR was supposed to be a 'wake-up' call to the fans to say that he is NOT a 'good guy'. He is a soulless monster.

[vampmogs]

What do you mean? She did fight back, which is why he didn't succeed in raping her!

Buffy stopped him, she didn't really fight back. I would have been very pleased to see her kick Spike's arse through the house and out the window but unfortunately he was allowed to just walk away.

Spike was what Spike was. I think the AR was supposed to be a 'wake-up' call to the fans to say that he is NOT a 'good guy'. He is a soulless monster.

I think the writers actually stated this was exactly why they chose to do this because they felt people were growing to love Spike to much. They wanted to show the distinction between evil Spike and the Spike they could expect the following season who would then have a soul and would actually be good.