And here we go again ...

[Nina]

is Angel:Aftermath canon?

The first reactions are already popping up on the internet, people who refuse to see Aftermath as canon. Kelley Armstrong already said that the story will be approved by Joss Whedon. Isn't that just like ATF?

I'm not on a quest to make it not canon, because every comic published in this series, is for me canon (ATF, Aftermath and whatever comes next). I just want to know if this is the same deal as with AtF ...

[vampmogs]

If it's approved by Joss Whedon, it's canon. It's a official continuation to an official canon series, so yup, most certainly official in my opinion. No doubt about it. I think the majority of people will see it that way as well.

I guess it's the fact Joss had no part in it whatsoever that might be preventing it for some people, but he's stamped his approval on it, therefore to me, it's pretty clear it's canonical.

[Nina]

That are my thoughts as well, but when I saw people who believe that ATF is canon but dismiss Aftermath as canon, I was a bit confused.

[sueworld]

Half the time Joss had bugger all to do with the day to day running of AtS but that didn't mean it was to be seen as anything less then BTVS.

Frankly I get sick and tired of the 'Is it canon' comments that I see at places such as Whedonesque. Who cares? Why let whether it's canon or not get in the way of a good tale?

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Who cares? Why let whether it's canon or not get in the way of a good tale?

Lots of people care, because some of us either aren't interested in non-canon stories at all, or we want to know which ones are actually part of the story and which ones are "imaginary" stories (to borrow a phrase from the '60s Superman comics. I can read a non-canon story and even enjoy it if it's well-written, but I draw a line between "reality" within each fictional 'verse and stuff that's pulled out of left field because someone thinks a (for instance) Buffy/CSI crossover would be "cool". And so long as the creator is alive, "canon" doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with what certain fans may or may not like (if Joss wrote or approved a Buffy/CSI crossover and defined it as canon, it wouldn't matter whether I liked it or not.) So, yeah. "Canon" matters for lots of people.

[sueworld]

Even Joss said he'd change the story he'd created in the comics If a live action spin off was in the offering. So nothings written in stone it seems.

At the end of the day I'd rather read a good story well written and true to the spirit of the parent show, then a load of silly nonsense thats supposedly canon. :roll:

[Nina]

I'm one of the people who cares if it's canon. If I want to read good stories in the spirit of the show, I read good fanfic. I read the comics to find out what happens to the characters I love.

On the other side, I've lots of trouble with people who need Joss all over the comics to call it canon. If he declares that it's canon, I'm happy.

[sueworld]

I'm one of the people who cares if it's canon. If I want to read good stories in the spirit of the show, I read good fanfic.

So you're not getting that element from the comics then? :lol:

[Nina]

I prefer reading stories than comics, so if I just wanted to read good stories I would go with the fanfic. I don't say that the stories in the comics are not good, the most issues are very well written and I love the story in the Angel comics. But I'm not a comic fan myself.

[missperoxide]

I'm guessing too, that Joss's the god.

[vampmogs]

Even Joss said he'd change the story he'd created in the comics If a live action spin off was in the offering. So nothings written in stone it seems.

That's if he had to, which IMO he'd have to be very un-creative to accomplish. But I agree, canon is fluid it can change with a snap of Joss' finger, right now he could say season four wasn't canon and it wouldn't be, IMO only he has that authority.

At the end of the day I'd rather read a good story well written and true to the spirit of the parent show, then a load of silly nonsense thats supposedly canon. :roll:

I know what you're referring to here and I won't touch that ;) *BUT* the reason canon is personally important to me is because I like to know what's an official continuation of a story and what's not. For two reasons mainly;

The Money: Money is tight sometimes and I'd rather spend my money on an official continuation than a great written fanfic, which is basically what a non-canon comic is. The same way I'd rather spend my money on the DVDs for the televised seasons than a non canon comic, it's official, it's what is actually recognised as happening to the characters so I think for better or worse, it's money more well spent.

What's real and what's not: A story may be great, if 'After the Fall' hadn't have been canon it'd still be a fantastic story. *BUT* I want to know what's official as part of that character's journey and what's not, because on boards such as these we discuss the characters and their journeys and when they're heading ect. And you only do that with official stuff, it's why 'After the Fall' and Buffy Season Eight have these sub forums and why other comics such as 'Spike Asylum' ect, don't, even though a lot of people thought they were a very good read. No one recognises (or the vast majority dont) 'Spike Asylum' and what happened to Spike in that issue as an official part of his journey, you never see anyone bring it up in discussions about his character, and ultimately that's what's important to me, what I can and can't discuss in the grand scheme of things.

And you see it now, you can see season eight and 'After the Fall' talk creeping into other un-related threads as well, more and more these things are creeping into discussions about characters and events in other sections of fanboards, at the end of the day that's because they've been sold as *what really happened* and that stamp of approval makes people recongise them. Some people don't, but that just means they've dropped the series that's all, because if the shows creator says it's canon than it's canon, wether we hate it or like it.. I'd certainly wish some of s7 wasn't canon :roll:

Not being canon doesn’t mean a story can’t be fantastic, it doesn’t at all, but in reality it means discussing one comic over the other, I can’t get a lot out of a comic I know I can’t attribute to a character’s journey and characterisation because it isn’t recognised as really happening.

[sueworld]

No one recognises (or the vast majority dont) 'Spike Asylum' and what happened to Spike in that issue as an official part of his journey, you never see anyone bring it up in discussions about his character, and ultimately that's what's important to me, what I can and can't discuss in the grand scheme of things.

I think thats mostly due to the fact that most 'hard core' Spike fans don't like the comics much and quite frankly don't take any of them seriously.

The same way as I see discussions on places such as lj that totally ignore both season 8 and AtF. Whether some like to hear it or not, for some Buffy ended with Chosen and AtS with Not fade away.

[KingofCretins]

If not for the minimum characters per post, the answer would just be... "yes".

Anything contrary to "yes" is erroneous. Only Joss decides what's canon in the Buffyverse, fans have zero voice on the subject, nor should they, nor do they in any other series of fiction. The storyteller alone is the master of the tale.

One can enjoy fanfic... no reason not to. But when people get together to argue about what relationships were the best, what fights were the best, etc, the canon is the subject matter they're talking about. And that includes Season 8 of Buffy, "Angel: After the Fall", and will include Season 9 of Buffy, and "Angel: Aftermath".

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I think thats mostly due to the fact that most 'hard core' Spike fans don't like the comics much and quite frankly don't take any of them seriously.
Which means absolutely nothing as to whether or not they're canon.

The same way as I see discussions on places such as lj that totally ignore both season 8 and AtF. Whether some like to hear it or not, for some Buffy ended with Chosen and AtS with Not fade away.

Yeah, well, whether those people like it or not, they didn't. People can ignore the continuations all they want, but as far as to whether or not they're canon, that means exactly zero.

[sueworld]

It's canon of course, but whether everyone has to follow and read them is another matter entirely. :xd

[vampmogs]

It's canon of course, but whether everyone has to follow and read them is another matter entirely. :xd

Agreed. That's my stance on it really. You don't have to follow them anymore than you had to keep watching after s3, or after s5, it doesn't mean what happens after isn't canon it just means you chose to bow out and like to think of whatever time you left the series, as the end of the series *for you.* I think it's Sosa who said she knows people who refused to watch after s5, I'm sure there's many who haven't watched since the Highschool era, and obviously there's people who haven't followed the comics.

I think it just rubs people up the wrong way when people say "I don't care it's not real" as much as it would someone saying that about something that happened on TV, because it's not up to them really that's up to Joss and Joss alone. It's just up to them wether or not they want to keep up with it or not.

[ThePoet's<3]

I think some of the confusion was due to the new writer's attitude toward whether fans will like her writing as opposed to Lynch's. She made a comment about - and I paraphrase - "If they don't like it they can just pretend it never happened." Which may just be her attempt at downplaying her part in a very important part of the Angelverse.

I am a little concerned with what her writing style will be like. Will she have Spike's "voice" down as well as Lynch does? And the other characters as well? Lynch is a good writer where Angelverse is concerned. I don't know much about this writer's Angel background.

But from what I could understand - yes - this is supposed to be canon.

[Enisy]

I think it just rubs people up the wrong way when people say "I don't care it's not real" as much as it would someone saying that about something that happened on TV

It's a bit different in this case, because of the different medium, the time-gap between Season 7 and Season 8, and the fact that the series was originally supposed to end in Season 7 and there were no further plans for it at the time (so Seasons 1-7 are self-complete).

This was all put into a new perspective for me recently, because of a sequel that's planned for one of my old loves, Phantom of the Opera (the stage musical). Now, that whole fandom (literally no exceptions that I've seen) is prepared to dismiss the sequel as canon, because the original has the most natural, cathartic, perfect ending, and it's absolutely self-complete. Furthermore, Phantom, just like Buffy, was a product of a collaboration, and its creator was not solely (maybe not even mostly) responsible for its success; in which case the missing ingredients can change the whole feel of the work (Joss Whedon without Sarah Michelle Gellar or David Boreanaz; Andrew Lloyd Webber without Hal Prince or Maria Bjoernson). Another good example are the universally disliked Star Wars prequels.

General statement: If sequels or prequels come along years after the self-complete main body of work, and if they are in a different medium or with a radically different creative team, and if most or all of the fandom refuses to view them as canon... are they canon? And at that point, does it even matter if they are?

(I do consider Buffy: Season 8 and Angel: After the Fall canon, because I think they have more or less retained the spirit of the televised series, and because, unlike Webber's and Lucas's new creations, these are a work of love, not greed. However, if Joss crosses a line -- which I don't think he will, but hypothetically speaking -- I will also throw everything off the window without losing much sleep over it, just like I've done a priori with the Phantom sequel. Joss said himself that "those who don't want to accept the series, don't have to".)

[Rowan Hawthorn]

It's a bit different in this case, because of the different medium, the time-gap between Season 7 and Season 8, and the fact that the series was originally supposed to end in Season 7 and there were no further plans for it at the time (so Seasons 1-7 are self-complete).


I don't see that as any different than the hiatus between "The Final Problem" and "The Adventure of the Empty House" in the Sherlock Holmes canon. Same author, and a direct pickup of the storyline.

This was all put into a new perspective for me recently, because of a sequel that's planned for one of my old loves, Phantom of the Opera (the stage musical). Now, that whole fandom (literally no exceptions that I've seen) is prepared to dismiss the sequel as canon, because the original has the most natural, cathartic, perfect ending, and it's absolutely self-complete. Furthermore, Phantom, just like Buffy, was a product of a collaboration, and its creator was not solely (maybe not even mostly) responsible for its success; in which case the missing ingredients can change the whole feel of the work (Joss Whedon without Sarah Michelle Gellar or David Boreanaz; Andrew Lloyd Webber without Hal Prince or Maria Bjoernson). Another good example are the universally disliked Star Wars prequels.

General statement: If sequels or prequels come along years after the self-complete main body of work, and if they are in a different medium or with a radically different creative team, and if most or all of the fandom refuses to view them as canon... are they canon? And at that point, does it even matter if they are?

Well, "Phantom" (the musical) is based on a novel (or, possibly, one of the movies which were, in turn, based on the novel,) so it's really not the original work to start with. So, from that standpoint, I can't even see the original musical as canon to anything but itself, and don't see how any sequels to the musical could be anything other than "derivative works".

[XavierZane]

Seriously, when the musical itself is a bastardization of another medium the entire concept of "canon" becomes kind of moot. The concept of "canon" is pretty ridiculous in the first place, really. The story of Buffy will outlive Joss, and it will outlive the current generation of fans, so all of Joss' proclamations about what is and isn't canon, and all of our quibbling will mean nothing when the third or fourth generation of fans declare the movie and the comic books to be canon, while those silly television shows amount to nothing more than a whole bunch of studio meddling.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

<shrug> Fans can make all the declarations they want, but it doesn't mean jack. Hell, there are people right now who insist that their own fanfic is "as much canon as anything that happened in the show". That's getting beyond ridiculous. The concept of "canon" is fairly important to distinguish between the internal "reality" of any given 'verse and its knock-offs and imitations.

I think it's safe to say that the Sherlock Holmes story has certainly outlived its contemporary generation; yet, I don't see anyone seriously trying to claim that any of the Holmes stories of the past fifty years are "as much canon as any of Doyle's stories."

[sueworld]

Well I don't know in what circles you move in but I've never, ever seen a fan writer declare what they've written as being canon. Any fan written stuff by it's very nature is just another's take on the idea. 'Playing with another's dolls' so to speak. :D

But personally canon doesn't mater so much to me that it would interfere with the reading of a well written tale. To do otherwise would mean missing out on a lot of good ideas and good writing.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Well I don't know in what circles you move in
On-line forums. Usenet groups.

but I've never, ever seen a fan writer declare what they've written as being canon. Any fan written stuff by it's very nature is just another's take on the idea. 'Playing with another's dolls' so to speak. :D
Yes. Unfortunately, there appears to be enough hubris in some of those writers that they imagine that their "take on the idea" carries the same weight as the original.

But personally canon doesn't mater so much to me that it would interfere with the reading of a well written tale. To do otherwise would mean missing out on a lot of good ideas and good writing.
I don't remember saying anywhere that no one should read non-canon stories, or that they couldn't be well-written (most of the ones I've seen aren't, but that's simply a failing on the writers' parts,) just that there is "canon" and "non-canon", and for quite a lot of people it does make a difference.

[sueworld]

I have no idea what an 'Usenet' group is I'm afraid. :lol:

I don't remember saying anywhere that no one should read non-canon stories, or that they couldn't be well-written (most of the ones I've seen aren't, but that's simply a failing on the writers' parts,) just that there is "canon" and "non-canon", and for quite a lot of people it does make a difference.

Bo I was addressing that remark on the kind of folk I see posting on Whedonesque who the moment AtF was announced (and still do for that matter) said that they wouldn't bother to read it unless it was 'canon'.

[-beardo-]

I only read canon, and i dont but non canon stuff, not because i dont enjoy it but because its just not official.

look im a big tv buff and yea i am probbaly obsessed but it is importnat to me. I am spending money on something i enjoy and what i read/watch has to be something that means something to the wider story. honestly. if joss did a movie that was canon withe series and even season 8, you would probably have to do read season eight as well because the characters have devloped, but if he chooses to get rid of it then it doesnt matter, but to alot of people canon is important.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Bo I was addressing that remark on the kind of folk I see posting on Whedonesque who the moment AtF was announced (and still do for that matter) said that they wouldn't bother to read it unless it was 'canon'.

Well, so what? For some people, it's not just about "a good read", it's about reading something that's part of the actual story, which non-canon works are not, simple as that. I'm not quite that strict myself - I'll read non-canon stuff when I can find something that's actually readable, but I won't go out of my way for it. Only the canon materials are important, the rest is just for when I don't have anything better to do.

[sueworld]

Only the canon materials are important, the rest is just for when I don't have anything better to do.

Oh dear, but hey, whatever floats ya boat. :xd

[Enisy]

What if Joss did throw Season 8 out the window "without losing much sleep over it", as he said in Paley, though? Would you automatically feel you'd wasted your money?

[KingofCretins]

What if Joss did throw Season 8 out the window "without losing much sleep over it", as he said in Paley, though? Would you automatically feel you'd wasted your money?

I'd probably send him a bill for the $300 or so I've laid out for Season 8 and "Angel: After the Fall" comics. I'm not kidding. There are actual questions of truth in advertising and even contract involved here. It would not be hard at all to establish that the "official continuation" status has a impact on the value of the franchise -- compare Season 8's top 10, top 15 sales to what the previous, non-canon Buffy comics were doing. I would not have spent a dime on these books if there were not advertised as the official continuation of the televised series. They may be entertaining stories, but there are plenty of entertaining, unofficial stories in fanfic that are completely free of cost. 100% of my financial investment in Season 8 is based on just that -- it's Season 8.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I kind of agree with that. I'm enjoying Season 8, but if it was just another "licensed product" like the first Dark Horse series, I would probably have read it eventually, but I wouldn't have gone out of my way. It's like the tie-in novels: They can be excellent stories (the ones I've read weren't,) but if they're not part of the "real" story, they don't matter, so they get read if and when I have time and need some reading material. And even as far as non-canon stuff is concerned, I prefer stuff that sticks closely to the canon; if I want a story where the characters are totally different characters, I'll read a story that's about, y'know, totally different characters.

[Vampire in Rug]

I agree and disagree.

I think season 8 and ATF are superior to the Buffy and Angel comics that came before. Because by being canon the writers have much more freedom to develop the storylines and characters without having to maintain the status quo like the comics that were written when the show was being aired. Now there's a real "risk" for the characters, so to speak.

So yeah, I feel that both series kick ass and the reason they are allowed to kick so much ass is because being canon allows them certain freedoms.

Now, I don't believe anything is set in stone. If Joss wants to ignore the comics to make way for a movie or something I'm sure a lot of fans will be disapointed, but it's not like Joss went to your house and blanked out the pages on the comics you bought. If you enjoyed the stories there's no reason why you still shouldn't.

Season 8 is advertised as the "official continuation" of the show because at the moment, that's what it is. That might change in the future, but for now, Season 8 and ATF are and will remain the events that "happened" after season 7.

It's not like retcons are something new.

Fray was a great story and for a long time it was the canon future of the Buffyverse. And now, thanks to the current arc, it might not be. Future Dark Willow might pull a time-traveling retcon so that the events of Fray never actually happen. I'm not concerned, because I enjoyed Fray, and just because Future Dark Willow might erase her from history, that doesn't stoy me from picking up my copy and enjoying it again.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I agree and disagree.

I think season 8 and ATF are superior to the Buffy and Angel comics that came before. Because by being canon the writers have much more freedom to develop the storylines and characters without having to maintain the status quo like the comics that were written when the show was being aired. Now there's a real "risk" for the characters, so to speak.

So yeah, I feel that both series kick ass and the reason they are allowed to kick so much ass is because being canon allows them certain freedoms.

Now, I don't believe anything is set in stone. If Joss wants to ignore the comics to make way for a movie or something I'm sure a lot of fans will be disapointed, but it's not like Joss went to your house and blanked out the pages on the comics you bought. If you enjoyed the stories there's no reason why you still shouldn't.

Season 8 is advertised as the "official continuation" of the show because at the moment, that's what it is. That might change in the future, but for now, Season 8 and ATF are and will remain the events that "happened" after season 7.

It's not like retcons are something new.

Fray was a great story and for a long time it was the canon future of the Buffyverse. And now, thanks to the current arc, it might not be. Future Dark Willow might pull a time-traveling retcon so that the events of Fray never actually happen. I'm not concerned, because I enjoyed Fray, and just because Future Dark Willow might erase her from history, that doesn't stoy me from picking up my copy and enjoying it again.

Well, of course the fact that it was the canon future up until this point simply means that we hadn't reached the point where the rift occurred. For all we know, this could always have occurred at this point, once time got to this point, therefore the retcon would always have been canon!

Don't'cha just love time paradoxes?? :fryingpan:

[sueworld]

Now, I don't believe anything is set in stone. If Joss wants to ignore the comics to make way for a movie or something I'm sure a lot of fans will be disapointed, but it's not like Joss went to your house and blanked out the pages on the comics you bought. If you enjoyed the stories there's no reason why you still shouldn't.

Season 8 is advertised as the "official continuation" of the show because at the moment, that's what it is. That might change in the future, but for now, Season 8 and ATF are and will remain the events that "happened" after season 7.

It's not like retcons are something new.

Exactly. To think that everything going to written in stone is a wee bit silly really. After all it's his 'toys' he can do what he likes with them.

[Rowan Hawthorn]

Exactly. To think that everything going to written in stone is a wee bit silly really. After all it's his 'toys' he can do what he likes with them.
Yes, but it's his 'toys' and that's the difference between what's canon and what's not. Doyle retconned Holmes's death, too.

[sueworld]

Yes, I know we covered that ground earlier.

I don't dispute whats canon and whats not, I'm just not so rigid in my approach to things that canon 'rules my world' so to speak.

For me it's the writing above all else.

[Saro49]

The importance of canon in the Buffyverse is that Whedon takes so many risks with his characters that there are no actions that are completely off limits or outlandish. When talking about other verse's it doesn't matter because there is such a strict status quo and the character barely changes but with Buffy and Angel so many whacky developments go on an established canon is needed. There is so much slash about Angel and Spike but it stays as fan fiction however it would not be crazy to think that Whedon would make something between them canon (and I mean more than that remark from Spike). If this did happen it would change the way you view the two characters. That is why canon is so crucial with Whedon related shows. Just think for a second all the bizarre things that have happened to the show and you could pass them off as wacky fan fiction.

[Nina]

Joss Whedon is not credited as a writer for the Aftermath series, I don't care about that as long it will be seen as canon. But are here people who are going to stop reading the Angel comics because of this?